[HN Gopher] Introverts didn't 'win' lockdown
___________________________________________________________________
Introverts didn't 'win' lockdown
Author : Tomte
Score : 98 points
Date : 2021-07-10 14:15 UTC (8 hours ago)
(HTM) web link (www.bbc.com)
(TXT) w3m dump (www.bbc.com)
| luffapi wrote:
| > _Posts across social media platforms suggest that, as many
| countries reduce their social distancing guidelines, many
| introverts have been pleasantly surprised by their increased
| opportunities to meet people face-to-face._
|
| This article reads like pro-return to office propaganda. Drawing
| conclusions from "posts across social media" (posts not
| included).
|
| * Remote work
|
| * Delivery of everything
|
| * Don't have to talk to delivery driver, goods left on door
|
| There are a lot of major shifts that happened due to COVID that
| are absolutely pro-introvert.
| throwawayocd wrote:
| I'm heavily introverted, and the lockdown has negatively affected
| me in various ways. Most notably, I've developed a severe case of
| contamination OCD that is crippling my personal development and
| career. After seeking therapy and talking things out, I've come
| to realize a lot of it has to do with heavy isolation. Now that
| I'm vaccinated and still seeking therapy, I find that going out
| and being surrounded by others significantly reduces the anxiety
| I get associated with my contamination OCD triggers.
|
| This further proves the point that just because somebody is
| introverted, it does not mean they suffer social anxiety. At the
| end of the day, both introverts and extroverts need human
| interaction.
| holstvoogd wrote:
| I call bullshit. I suspect selection bias
| chippy wrote:
| a necessary evil is still an evil. No one 'wins' it.
| Aaargh20318 wrote:
| I'm an introvert and the whole lockdown situation has been
| amazing. Not only could I work from home the entire time, it also
| meant I could get out of social obligations without feeling
| guilty or even needing to come up with an excuse. No birthday
| parties, weddings or office Christmas party to attend.
|
| I feel bad for the people who got sick or who lost someone, but
| aside from that I wish this pandemic never ended. I'm dreading
| the return to normality.
| [deleted]
| checkyoursudo wrote:
| As someone who is inclined to introversion, forced interactions
| with the outside world are critically important to preventing my
| becoming an isolated, indifferent, and self-centered person.
|
| I have _far_ from been a winner in this pandemic. I wish that I
| could have been in the office regularly. I am extremely jealous
| of the engineering department and medicine department who were
| allowed to be at the university basically any time then wanted.
| WarOnPrivacy wrote:
| Our introvert family mostly enjoyed lockdown but we are six
| adults who get on very well with each other. We also really
| appreciated months of less traffic and fewer people at the store.
|
| However, had our work been impacted, it would have been a very
| different experience. What did hit us was this year's 99% housing
| shortage (our rental was sold). Although we beat the very long
| odds, it was the most terrifying thing I've ever experienced.
| matsemann wrote:
| I don't fully agree with the article's definition of
| introversion. I feel it conflates extroversion with being
| outgoing, and introversion with being reserved. One can be
| outgoing and introverted, for instance.
|
| My theory, btw, is that we introverts got our perfect dose of
| social contact by going to work and a few outings here and there.
| But during the pandemic it was easy to just do nothing with it as
| a "mental excuse", and when I didn't get social events handed to
| me it kinda just became nothing. Normally I wouldn't have to seek
| out social stuff to get my dose, but now it suddenly was too
| little.
| historyloop wrote:
| False dichotomy.
|
| Introverts on average took less of a hit, as they didn't see much
| change to their lives and many of them already had remote jobs
| they were able to keep during lockdowns.
|
| This doesn't mean they're loving it.
|
| Well I gotta say many preppers were loving it though.
| Zababa wrote:
| One thing that's not mentionned: a lockdown means you're
| constantly spending time with the people you live with. That
| means almost no more moments where you're alone in your home. I
| know that I get irritable after some time when we go for a family
| vacation and spend all our time together, because I need some
| time for myself and some control over my actions. I've never
| heard about agency in the context of introvert/extrovert, but I
| think it matters a lot. I value being able to make my own
| decisions a lot, and having long periods where all decisions have
| to be taken in group exhausts me.
| [deleted]
| charles_f wrote:
| Can be summarized by the quote they give
|
| > Social connections are a basic human need... Being an introvert
| doesn't mean you don't want to socialise at all - Daniele Gubler
| and Katja Schlegel
| Kiro wrote:
| Strong disagree on it being a basic human need. I've had months
| without socializing and didn't think much of it. In fact, I was
| really happy during those times.
| rchaud wrote:
| I've had those same months, and didn't feel different. Once
| that turns into something like 18 months, I started feeling
| it.
| optimalsolver wrote:
| Article doesn't speak for me.
|
| You extroverts will never drag me into an office again.
| Graffur wrote:
| I'm an introvert but like being in the office. I don't like the
| commute though so will try to maximize WFH.
| dannyw wrote:
| Same. The cost is the commute, but the benefit is a
| relatively nice office where I can focus, meeting rooms,
| healthy and delicious lunch, and opportunity to talk to my
| coworkers if I want to.
|
| I like being at home, but I also like not being at home. Even
| if I'm just working by myself.
| Tempest1981 wrote:
| > nice office where I can focus
|
| A nice contrast to the frat-house bullpen of many offices.
| It's like trying to study for an exam while your roommates
| are having a party. "Oh, just wear headphones."
| DerekBickerton wrote:
| > You extroverts will never drag me into an office again.
|
| And people after tasting what working from home feels like,
| want to continue doing it:
| https://yougov.co.uk/topics/economy/articles-reports/2020/09...
| enriquto wrote:
| Your words do not correspond to my experience either. The
| extroverts of my job seem to do fairly well doing WFH, they are
| able to chain their 1h meetings without pauses in-between, and
| fill-in their whole time doing extrovert stuff.
|
| But not me. I'm a hard-core introvert, and the lockdown has
| been a nightmare to me! I've felt completely isolated and sad,
| can't get anything done. Often I have to cancel zoom meetings
| because I'm so down that I cannot bear to talk to other people.
| At least going to a physical place with my colleagues forced me
| to dress and stand, and from that I could work, even if I
| didn't speak much. I don't think I would be able to survive
| another month working from home. Fortunately, it seems that in
| September we'll be able to go back to semi-normal.
| 0xbadcafebee wrote:
| Don't make it someone else's job to take care of your mental
| health, man. If you feel that bad you need to deal with the
| underlying reasons why, not just run back to the office.
| Pokepokalypse wrote:
| Well, it's a bit of a stereotyping joke to begin with. Introverts
| aren't necessarily a solid bloc of total introverts - many just
| need to measure or limit their social interaction, and may simply
| prefer a small amount.
|
| Absolutely NO interaction at all, is fairly rare, and more of a
| feature of people with schizoaffective disorder, and pretty much
| falls outside the "normal" spectrum of introversion.
| ineedasername wrote:
| That makes sense, an introvert might be fine with isolation &
| content with their introvert nature, but there are going to be
| plenty who are not, and losing the little bit of socializing they
| had takes them to a worse place in terms of mental health.
|
| For my part, I'm introverted, but pretty content with where I'm
| at. My socialization comes primarily from my family, and there's
| a few of us living within a few blocks that all observed strict
| social distancing, were fortunate enough to have jobs we could do
| from home and enough money to pay a premium on grocery delivery
| etc.
|
| Very little changed for me except that I got to see my kids more,
| spent less time in meetings, and didn't waste an hour getting
| back & forth to an office.
|
| Certainly many other people, introvert or not, were not in nearly
| as fortunate of a position as I was.
| x14km2d wrote:
| * self employment 20 yrs.+
|
| * none-smoker
|
| * none-alcohol drinker
|
| * programmer
|
| * autist
|
| * hard service user (food delivery, Amazon, etc.)
|
| I go out for the dentist or a small walk. One day holiday in a
| year. The pandemic changes nothing to me.
| ballenf wrote:
| Was just watching Youtube video Veritassium about the non-
| existence of learning styles yesterday.
|
| I wonder if similar studies would show that there really are no
| introverts vs. extroverts in the sense that all people really
| have roughly the same need for human contact.
|
| Kind of like everyone needs physical activity, but some people
| gravitate more to it than others.
|
| Probably the wrong forum to voice such a theory...
| goodpoint wrote:
| The video on learning styles was good. It's sad to see school
| teachers accepting fad theories without evidence. Even worse:
| it's not surprising.
|
| > I wonder if similar studies would show that there really are
| no introverts vs. extroverts
|
| There has been many and they show that introversion and
| extroversion are very real.
|
| > in the sense that all people really have roughly the same
| need for human contact.
|
| People often confuse need for contact, introversion and
| loneliness. They are different dimensions.
| watwut wrote:
| Or that it is spectrum with most in the middle.
|
| And that anxieties, shyness, awkwardness are orthogonal to it.
| And that being loud dont imply extroversion either.
| ErikVandeWater wrote:
| All people need a strong sense of connection, but not all
| people thrive with a high degree of contact.
| jstx1 wrote:
| The Veritasium video talks about research and how the evidence
| doesn't support the learning styles theory. On the other hand,
| psychology theory into personality has a lot of evidence to
| show that people vary a lot on their extraversion. The reported
| results (from Big Five and similar personality tests) are
| usually in percentiles relative to some reference population
| rather than a label of introvert or extrovert.
| DeusExMachina wrote:
| The Big Five model statistically shows that
| extroversion/introversion is one of the five axis over which
| personality varies. So studies already showed that there are
| introverts and extroverts.
|
| The only thing you could say is wrong is the supposed
| dichotomy. Instead, we have a gaussian distribution along the
| axis.
| dannyw wrote:
| OP isn't saying there are no preference differences, but
| rather all humans have a similar level of need for social
| contact.
| slfawr_intrvrt wrote:
| Throwaway because personal. Here's my experience as an
| introvert: I don't feel compelled to actively seek out social
| interaction. And it drains me.
|
| But ... if I don't get it, I start feeling depression symptoms
| and go sort of insane. Heck, it took me a while to even figure
| out there was a connection between the two and those symptoms
| had an easy fix!
|
| I compare it to people who can't feel pain [1] in that I'm
| hurting myself but don't immediately recognize the source of
| the pathology.
|
| [1]
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Congenital_insensitivity_to_pa...
| themodelplumber wrote:
| All people are introverts
|
| Some people are introverts
|
| No one is an introvert
|
| These are each true depending on the framing, and this aspect
| is even true to the original Jungian theory. Maybe that helps
| explain why quantification and studies can only go so far.
| Similar with learning styles...
|
| IMO holding any model lightly is a good idea. That way you
| don't need studies as badly when you have a conflicting result
| in which an introvert desperately wants to head to a party.
| psalminen wrote:
| Exactly. That's why the whole "extroverted introvert"
| movement everyone's so proud to join has always annoyed me.
| cryptica wrote:
| You must be an extrovert.
|
| I don't think it's black and white. It's more like a spectrum.
| Some people become more drained than others when hanging around
| other people. Also, some people like to hang out with many
| different people each day while others prefer to see more or
| less the same person every day.
|
| I'm an introvert, I have very few friends but very good
| friends. I find most relationships to be too superficial to my
| liking. What's the point of having a friend if you know that
| this friend is capable of betraying you to gain a tiny
| advantage? I'm a pretty good judge of people and I find that at
| least 90% of people are far too selfish (not altruistic enough)
| to make good friends.
|
| It's too draining to hang around the majority of people because
| I don't like them and pretending to is exhausting and frankly I
| don't see the point.
|
| I can only be friends with people who are as altruistic as I am
| (or close to it)... Why would you want to spend time with
| people who are constantly trying to take something from you?
| That's the definition of a parasite.
|
| My theory is that people with low altruism are themselves more
| likely to tolerate other people with low altruism. They might
| even prefer them since they feel more familiar. That may be
| part of the reason why psychopaths end up grouping together;
| aside from their shared thirst for power.
| [deleted]
| CM30 wrote:
| I'm extremely introverted and wanted to work from home for years
| because of it, but lockdown still sucked for me because:
|
| 1. There was no choice in the matter, which felt suffocating
| rather than liberating. Being able to do something just hits
| differently than being forced to, regardless of how much you
| 'enjoy' what you're being forced to do.
|
| 2. Being stuck inside without any other options means every day
| felt like an extension of the same endless one, which means you
| lose track of time and feel kinda meaningless.
|
| 3. And as I realised, while I was introverted, I wasn't
| introverted 'enough' that complete isolation would be perfectly
| fine for me. Everyone is different in how introverted/extroverted
| they are, and while some people can likely do well in complete
| isolation for decades at a time, most people can't. If you
| couldn't do well like that, lockdown was hell.
| underseacables wrote:
| I live in a rural area and the only people I generally see in a
| day are my wife and kids. Occasionally a neighbor. Im an
| introvert in an extroverted job, and so I try to be the
| extrovert. When the pandemic hit our office did not switch to
| remote right away but when it did my whole social world
| collapsed. I spend at least two weeks of every month on the road,
| and not all the same time. Going back to HQ and seeing people and
| having lunch with colleagues, that's my social life in a
| nutshell. Not being able to do that was soul crushing, and put
| strain on my wife because now she has to put up with this big
| beluga all day!
| tvanantwerp wrote:
| I'm an introvert and my wife is an extrovert. She definitely
| struggled more than I did. But even I got to the point where I
| was cherishing any small opportunity to chat with a stranger.
|
| A couple of months ago, I went to an old friend's wedding and
| spent several days with new people for the first time in over a
| year. About one and a half days in, I'd used up all that pent up
| extroversion and went right back to my normal introverted self.
| m_a_g wrote:
| Before the lockdowns I thought I was an introvert. Boy was I
| wrong.
| twodave wrote:
| I thought I was an extrovert! Turns out anxiety can masquerade
| as extroversion.
| Graffur wrote:
| What have you found out about yourself?
| notahacker wrote:
| I'd say the opposite, more or less.
|
| Before the lockdown I lived in London with a flatmate, went
| into a sociable office regularly and voluntarily and spent a
| lot of time in bars. Had a lot more "alone time" when I
| travelled, but actively sought out company the whole time.
|
| 18 months later, I'm living on my own for longer than I ever
| have before, in a boat travelling through relatively rural
| locations a long way from London or people I know, and the
| notion of going out to socialise and having full time work gigs
| is something in the past, and it's.... fine. Haven't felt the
| need to overcompensate with catchup calls and messages, will be
| quite happy taking on projects or a next job with fewer
| meetings, have seen some friends since but no need to force the
| issue, because _that 's the way things are_ and _there are
| other things to do_ .
|
| Though I might have to find something resembling a crowd for
| the coming World Cup Final :)
| fumar wrote:
| It talks about being an ambivert in order to be successful and
| balanced. As someone who is energized by independent time, I
| found the lockdown easier. I could quickly step out for a run,
| walk, eat lunch in silence, read a book for 20 minutes. There was
| no pressure to entertain with peers or social networking at the
| cafeteria. We are social creatures and I liked having finer
| control over it.
|
| People who meet me in 1 or 2 meetings might think I am an
| extrovert or non-introvert. I don't mind speaking in front of 30
| people - some of peers would say I excel at public speaking. I
| just want time to myself afterwards because much of my energy is
| spent presenting.
| psalminen wrote:
| Thay has been my favorite thing about lockdown. Instead of
| having to sit at a desk during downtime I could actually do
| other activities that take my mind off work when I need it.
| hirundo wrote:
| I'm a physically and socially isolated introvert in a rural
| county and have been working from home for a decade. About the
| only difference for me was the occasional need to put on a mask
| before walking in a store. My greatest inconvenience was very
| minor: I was turned away from a convenience store for not having
| a mask with me.
|
| Early in the lockdowns I made a trip to the closest big city for
| a dentist appointment and I was amazed by the transformation, the
| closed businesses, the long lines, the obvious ubiquitous fear.
| Several family members struggled after losing jobs. It's quite
| clear how this disaster has seriously affected so many other
| people.
|
| So while I don't count myself as a winner in this, it does seem
| to be a substantial win to not be one of the losers.
| ZanyProgrammer wrote:
| It seems like you "won" because you kept your job, living in a
| rural area and being introverted was just a side bonus.
| jdkdkfmdm wrote:
| Yeah it also seems like he didn't give in to the fear and
| went about his life as best as he could. He went to the
| dentist early in lockdowns. My social circle would've cast
| you out for that and it is for sure a smaller circle than it
| was in March 2020 because of media provided moral imperatives
| that if you didn't follow week to week, you were no better
| than a Republican
|
| Actually, it eventually made me Republican.
| Clubber wrote:
| Really it was a lose-lose situation. Ignore it and you
| stack bodies in a freezer truck like in NYC. Lock down and
| a lot of your businesses no longer exist. Hopefully we're
| done with it for the next 100 years.
| bmeski wrote:
| The next "thing" will happen in 20 years. 9/11 -> Covid
| -> (whatever 2040 cooks up for us to make sure the next
| generation lives in fear)
| [deleted]
| tester756 wrote:
| OPs right,
|
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_epidemics#Chronolog
| y
| detaro wrote:
| > _wtf is with downvotes of this comment?_
|
| It clearly has nothing to do with epidemics, so what's
| your link supposed to prove?
| jMyles wrote:
| > Really it was a lose-lose situation. Ignore it and you
| stack bodies in a freezer truck like in NYC.
|
| I can't tell whether this is sarcasm, but in the unlikely
| event that it's not, how do you explain every place that
| didn't lockdown having dramatically better numbers than
| NYC?
|
| Surely there's no remaining possibility of regarding
| lockdowns as a success?
|
| What data can possibly conclude this experiment if not
| the data which already exists?
| christkv wrote:
| Overuse of ventilators in the first wave probably killed
| a ton more people than expected. Once they dialed back
| ventilator use and established cortison treatments and
| normal oxygen instead death rates lowered.
| mandelbrotwurst wrote:
| How did ventilators kill people?
| redis_mlc wrote:
| Ventilators:
|
| - are intended for use for a few days, not a few weeks.
| The artificial air pressure destroys lung cells and
| capillaries
|
| - patients are sedated to avoid pulling out tubes. This
| weakens both their lung function and the rest of their
| body due to immobilization, including bed sores. Usually
| their trachea is damaged and they cannot talk after
| removing the tubes for a period of time, and must do
| physical rehabilitation afterwards.
|
| - doctors and nurses consider patients on ventilators the
| sickest in the hospital, followed by recent ventilator
| patients
|
| - being in a hospital for a month or more exposes
| patients to other infections, which are not immediately
| apparent in a sedated patient
|
| - China warned about ventilator use being usually
| unproductive with corona very early in 2020, so it took a
| while for US doctors to understand that the low oxygen
| levels measured in corona patients was not a critical
| thing in most cases if they could still breathe on their
| own.
|
| ER doctors are not researchers, so they follow previous
| recommendations until told otherwise.
| herbst wrote:
| Same here. I live in a quiet house far away from everything in
| the middle of the Swiss Alps. I get the majority of my food
| from small farmer stalls around me. The most of other things I
| just order online. Except my partner the only real contact I
| have right now is my family I see maybe once a month. However
| they visit me as I don't really want drive down to a busy town.
| I have no work related contacts either as I life from my own
| projects.
|
| Even when my partner is away for a few weeks I don't feel
| alone. I've spent months alone in Asia without feeling alone.
|
| I feel really lucky today for being in this situation. Some
| people turned their life upside down and I just got more of the
| life that I always wanted.
|
| Edit:// I forgot to mention that I indeed have friends and also
| did all the social things regularly 2 years ago. My point is
| that I often felt like I have to attend these social things and
| I actually don't miss them. Still chatting online from time to
| time.
| ineedasername wrote:
| What were the long lines for?
| colanderman wrote:
| Occupancy of things like grocery stores was limited, but
| people still needed to go to them. Many had long lines out
| the door. (Reference point: suburb of Boston)
| ineedasername wrote:
| Ah, that's right... Per another comment I made, I was in
| the very fortunate position of being able to pay a premium
| for delivery. So I didn't see the grocery store situation,
| though I know they set up special times for seniors to come
| and shop. I also very much appreciated the fact that the
| people delivering groceries didn't have the luxury of
| working from home and tried to calculate tips that were
| high enough that even if they had a few inconsiderate
| people who didn't tip that mine made up for some of it.
| (And also account for people who needed to stay safe and
| have groceries delivered but couldn't afford to be as
| generous)
|
| It's interesting how all of this highlighted social
| divisions, even subtle ones that weren't much of an issue
| before, like well paid doctors and nurses and other medical
| staff that _couldn 't_ work from home, and had to take
| risks with their & their family's safety:
|
| I know someone whose spouse is an EMT, and they basically
| has to quarantine him in the house to stay safe because
| they worked in an extreme outbreak hotspot. Even then, the
| EMT brought home COVID and the other spouse ended up in the
| hospital, all just before the vaccine became available.
| That person still hasn't fully recovered, even though
| they're otherwise a perfectly health non-risk-group person,
| still weakened enough that even a partial return to working
| in person is at least a few weeks away.
|
| There's going to be research for decades just on all of the
| social impacts this has had on society.
|
| The closest comparison I can think off-- though not
| perfect-- are the social and workforce changes that occured
| I'm the wake of WWII... Not to mention the failed attempt
| afterwards to put the genie back in the bottle of women in
| the workplace.
|
| Strange, interesting, horrific times we're in.
| WarOnPrivacy wrote:
| Ours were the opposite. Stores emptied out and we could
| shop comfortably.
| ineedasername wrote:
| _So while I don 't count myself as a winner in this, it does
| seem to be a substantial win to not be one of the_
|
| Same. I was extremely fortunate that this disaster and my work,
| family, and financial setup meant things had little impact on
| me. It hit my kids harder socially, but educationally they
| ended up much better because they had a highly educated retired
| family member as a neighbor. They did and did their remote
| schooling there, with help available at all times to extent far
| beyond what 1 teacher with 25 kids can do in a classroom.
|
| That was _extremely_ fortunate, especially seeing other kids in
| the school whose families basically had no choice but to lose a
| year of school-- but the way things are functioning, they 're
| still moving up a grade and schools all over the country are
| going to be having problems with a significant % of students
| who not only didn't learn anything, but are 1.5 years away from
| the last time they were even in the habit of having to learn.
|
| "Not a loser" is indeed winning in this case.
| jdavis703 wrote:
| In the California lockdown, we weren't allowed to visit with
| neighbors (we're in a 34 floor apartment, and we weren't even
| supposed to ride the elevator with other households). It
| sounds like your region may have had a softer lockdown since
| they allowed people to visit.
| ineedasername wrote:
| For an elevator and considering the magnitude of the CA
| outbreak, I kind of understand the elevator restrictions.
|
| But for neighbors etc that were in the same social bubble
| observing the same careful restrictions it seems too much.
| I think the government has been well within its rights in
| certain mandates that ensure careless people don't inflict
| their negligence on other people, but in some cases I think
| it went too far.
|
| On the other hand, especially at the beginning, everyone
| was dealing with incomplete and imperfect information. It
| was not an easy time to be a decision maker on such issues
| especially when people's actions became expressions of
| political affiliation. Masks are a perfect example:
|
| Resistance started as a rallying cry to allow people take
| personal responsibility, a mindset I can understand. But it
| then morphed into a refusal to take some precautions--
| essentially a refusal to consider personal responsibility
| issue-- due to the politics involved instead of a reasoned
| & informed stance on the risks. ( _PLEASE_ note that I 'm
| not making a statement about masks themselves one way or
| another-- just pointing out that choices influencing
| medical issues became driven by political affiliation. I
| saw extremes of this behavior on different ends of the
| political spectrum, substituting critical thinking with
| selectively listening only to experts that were aligned
| with a given political stance.)
| dannyw wrote:
| I'd like to hear more about your life experience - how much
| human contact do you have on a weekly basis?
| philipov wrote:
| Does the internet count?
| Kiro wrote:
| Not the poster but I could easily go a few years without
| human contact. It's just not important to me.
| hirundo wrote:
| I have daily human contact online at work. I've never met one
| of my coworkers in the flesh. In meatspace, I drive into a
| tiny village once a week to get mail at the post office,
| usually talking to nobody. Every other week I go to a more
| distant small town and hit the grocery and hardware store,
| and pass a few words with a clerk or three. It isn't unusual
| for a month to go by without speaking in the flesh with
| anyone that I'm not buying something from. I've had years go
| by without a non-commercial visitor to my home. I built a
| desk a couple of years ago and I'm still waiting to show it
| off to somebody.
|
| It isn't a good way to live. But for some weird reason it
| isn't very lonely ... until I'm around people. Then the
| loneliness becomes unbearable and I retreat.
| emerged wrote:
| I'm generally this way too. Life is beautiful in simple
| solitude. Other people bring with them all manner of drama
| and complications, which all see completely pointless to
| me. I like being around people when they aren't balls of
| anger, stress, drama. But those people are extremely rare
| and they tend to also isolate.
| johnchristopher wrote:
| > Then the loneliness becomes unbearable and I retreat.
|
| I don't understand how this goes. Could you describe your
| experience with more details ?
|
| > I built a desk a couple of years ago and I'm still
| waiting to show it off to somebody.
|
| Well, you could paste a picture here :).
| em-bee wrote:
| when you are alone, you are alone, but when you are among
| people that you don't know how to interact with, or don't
| want to interact with because you don't feel you have
| anything in common with them, then you feel lonely.
| hirundo wrote:
| Yes, thank you.
| sethammons wrote:
| So much this. I never feel as lonely as I do in a packed
| city visiting for work.
| [deleted]
| KronisLV wrote:
| > Well, you could paste a picture here :).
|
| That does sound like a pretty nice thing to say! That
| said, i can't exactly recall seeing many "Show HN" posts
| about making furniture, though awesome stuff like that
| does occasionally appear in the comments.
|
| I do feel like reaching out to some of the online
| communities for those particular interest groups could be
| pretty beneficial, though! For example:
| https://www.reddit.com/r/Carpentry/
| https://www.reddit.com/r/woodworking/
| https://www.reddit.com/r/DIY/
|
| (just using Reddit here as an example, because it's one
| of the better known sites)
| hypertele-Xii wrote:
| Just posting the picture right here, in this comment
| thread, although completely off-topic, will probably be
| accepted positively (net karma gain). HN folk seem to
| like personal tidbits, stories, and cool stuff made self.
| majgr wrote:
| I'm not sure personal contact is that important. Imagine
| this page as a giant table, and when one speaks, the rest
| listen. Reading through all these comments feels like being
| in a room where conversation takes place. For older people
| who do not use internet, TV or Radio plays that role.
| Moreover, one soaks atmosphere of given community (even
| online), and adjusts behaviours, thoughts accordingly, to
| some point at least I think.
| dominotw wrote:
| > It isn't a good way to live.
|
| Why do you choose to live like this. I am asking because
| wht you are describing here stuff of my dreams. I even
| bought a piece of land in rural colorado during the
| pandemic that I plan to start building in september.
| ryandrake wrote:
| Yea, I was going to say, OP's living situation sounds
| like a paradise to me. Also saving up for the big piece
| of rural land in the middle of nowhere. It sure beats
| commuting hours from a cramped home or apartment stacked
| up in a city with thousands of others, to a cramped
| office building where you sit literally shoulder to
| shoulder with hundreds of others and try to do work all
| day.
| 3np wrote:
| Sounds like a case of "the grass is always greener".
|
| There are things that only start to affect you after
| extended time in a lifestyle.
|
| Maybe it would actually be great for you, but it could
| also be that the downsides only become apparent after a
| year or two, at which point it can be hard to find a way
| to get to a good place.
|
| EDIT: Current situation doesn't sound healthy, though.
| The sweet spot is probably somewhere between the two
| extremes.
| iancmceachern wrote:
| Exactly. I read so many posts on HN about living alone in
| the middle of nowhere being better than driving 2 hours
| each way in terrible traffic to sit shoulder to shoulder
| in an open plan office. There are lots of downsides to
| living in the middle of nowhere, healthcare, access to
| other resources, etc.
|
| Don't get me wrong, I've fallen into that trap of
| thinking.
|
| My wife and I bought a small RV trailer that we tow to
| these kinds of "middle of nowhere places", we stay for a
| few weeks, or long enough to make us want to come back.
|
| My point - so.many of these comments I read on HN focus
| on putting all eggs in one basket. Why does it have to be
| bumper to bumper traffic and open plan offices vs. Hermet
| life in the woods?
|
| The reality is if one finds a good job I a semi-major
| urban center that often allows them to live both lives.
| Take a month or two off int he summer, live and work
| remotely in the boonies, then go back to "normal life".
| If you live full time in the boonies and align with that
| lifestyle that's all you get, it's hard to then go live
| for a few months in the city without blowing the budget.
|
| Variety is the spice of life?
| codingdave wrote:
| I'm in the same boat - introverted and living in the country.
| I have tons of human contact because I have a family with
| whom I live. I spend most of my non-work time with them. I go
| out to stores, I go to church, I even see friends and
| extended family on occasion.
|
| Frankly, I have very little difference in the amount of human
| contact I have now vs. what I did when I lived in a city
| before the pandemic.
|
| Where you live can certainly influence how much contact there
| is in your life, but you can be surrounded by people in the
| country just as easily as you can be a hermit holed up in
| your apartment in the city.
| Semaphor wrote:
| Not the one you replied to, and I live in the city. But my
| only normal IRL contact is my wife, and the cashiers at the
| supermarket. I have more contact with people online anyway.
|
| On a year-to-year basis, there is usually one metal festival
| 2-3 concerts, 2-3 visits to the parents and every few months
| meeting with friends, those were pretty much the only things
| I _lost_ during the pandemic.
|
| I generally count myself as a _winner_ of the pandemic, my
| job was not affected, private life barely, and I only know
| one person who got Covid (an American who studied in Germany
| a few years ago, he's young and got over it with no lasting
| effects).
| kurko wrote:
| This summarizes my situation, with one exception: the
| occasional trips (~twice a month) to work from the local
| coffeeshop, and/or ~twice a year trips to company retreats,
| helped varying the scenery and avoiding feeling burned out. Now
| I don't have that escape valve anymore and so, despite being
| remote for 10+ years, I'm dreading it.
| ludamad wrote:
| Indeed, I was trying some avenues to be less introverted. Those
| shut down. I became worse off, but it really is a matter of
| what we consider the baseline
| thrower123 wrote:
| The past year has proven how introverted I am.
|
| The best days of my life are the ones where I don't see or speak
| to another human being. Blessed days.
| johndhowell wrote:
| Same here. I feel bad when I mention that my life has gotten
| infinitely better since Covid. I get to work from home and just
| be by myself, it's amazing.
| [deleted]
| Graffur wrote:
| What do you do all day?
| thrower123 wrote:
| Whatever I want, without the looming, and the questions, and
| the demands that I assist someone with something.
| Geee wrote:
| I wonder how intelligence affects introversion. I think that most
| people are boring and it's draining to act like being interested
| in their stories or behavior.
| WarOnPrivacy wrote:
| I think what we're measuring here is how much people like being
| in their own headspace.
|
| Noting here that I generally find intelligence to be an
| unhelpful metric.
| hilbert42 wrote:
| _" The reality, however, turns out to be far different.
| Psychologists have now tested the influence of personality on
| people's mental health during the pandemic - and their results
| suggest that introverts found it much harder to cope with the
| isolation than many had expected."_
|
| I must admit the _mental health_ aspect of the pandemic took me
| somewhat by surprise. Before the pandemic, it hadn 't occurred to
| me that quite so many people were mentally affected by being
| isolated from others but clearly they are (the fact that it's
| been a perennial subject in the media ever since the pandemic
| began seems sufficient evidence). Although I note from some other
| recent reports it's likely been overstated and that people are
| actually more resilient than the stories make out.
|
| _(Please don 't accuse me of denying the fact that many are so
| affected, I'm only trying to cut to the facts. Also, it is not my
| intention to make light of the fact that this damn pandemic has
| caused so many people to suffer greatly through loss of loved
| ones, loss of their income and their jobs, etc., but if we're to
| get a reasonable gauge of the facts then we must be mindful to
| separate out a person's intrinsic introversion/extroversion from
| that caused by his/her experiences of the pandemic. Right, things
| like this are never simple.)_
|
| One of the problems with stories like this is that of definition.
| To cut to the chase, we do need to disentangle and cut away a bit
| of the hype. What actually does it mean to be introverted--and
| how is introversion different from being, say, shy of others--or
| just indifferent to them or to certain situations, etc.
|
| For example, if many of these instances of introversion were
| mistaken and they were in fact cases of shyness then it might
| account for this headline/story--for in pre-pandemic times,
| circumstances would have forced shy people to mingle more often
| and it's likely they would have appreciated the fact that being
| forced into the company of others would have been good for their
| psyche.
|
| OK, what I'm really saying is that popular/straw polls of
| people's psychological state--like the one in this story--are
| unlikely to be sufficiently rigorous to give us a true picture of
| the situation--even if their questions are graded (as in this
| poll)--and thus this may dilute or divert help away from the
| smaller number who really do need appreciable help.
|
| I'll try to illustrate by example why a simplistic approach to
| the problem isn't the best idea by being a guinea pig for the
| poll in the article:
|
| _" Are you inclined to keep in the background on social
| occasions?"_
|
| Well, it depends on many things, and with this question I'd rank
| myself about 3. With groups I know well or reasonably well, I am
| sometimes the center of attention (in the predominant or amusing
| sense), at other times I act like everyone else and mingle
| normally without undue attention. When I'm with a large group of
| strangers it depends on whether I've a common interest with them
| or not. If I do, then there's no problem, I can integrate so well
| that sometimes I'm among the last to leave. If I have little or
| nothing in common (and I'm required to be there for some reason),
| then I can be bored shitless (as I find idle chatter boring) and
| I'll keep in the background--I'll look at the ceiling or out the
| window, etc. (and given half a chance I'd likely leave). On the
| other hand, if I'm in this group together with a small number of
| people that I know then I'll separate out and only mingle with
| them whilst essentially ignoring the larger group.
|
| _" Are you inclined to limit your acquaintances to a select
| few?"_
|
| Sometimes yes, sometimes no (here too I'd rank myself about 3). I
| have a reasonable number of acquaintances (although I've never
| tried to count them). Also, I'd have to rate each person on a
| similar 1-to-5 scale depending on the closeness of our
| relationship. Obviously, my relationship with people in Group 5
| would be much closer than to those in Group 1.
|
| _" Do you like to have many social engagements?"_
|
| Generally not, most are trivial and a waste of time and I've
| usually much better things to do. That said, I rarely miss an
| opportunity to meet and socialize with friends and close
| acquaintances (sometimes I've even gone to the extent of
| traveling across international borders to do so). _Note: As it
| stands, I am unable to rank this question, as the answer is
| highly dependent on circumstance. I 'd rate my first comment
| about 2 and the second between 4 and 5._
|
| _" Are you a happy-go-lucky individual?"_
|
| In some aspects yes, but after an examination of the integrand I
| reckon I'd be classified as a 'no'. If I had to rate myself then
| it'd be between 2 and 3.
|
| _" Do you like to play pranks upon others?"_
|
| Yes, but not often, as pranks can go very wrong and people can
| either be hurt or their feelings hurt (I try definitely not to
| embarrass people and I'm upset if I do). I only play pranks on
| people I know well and even then, I'm careful who I select
| (personality must be considered, otherwise pranks backfire).
| Also, I know that pranks are intrinsically reciprocal and that
| means I'll eventually end up being the 'victim' with almost 100%
| certainty.
|
| Thus, it is obvious both introversion and extroversion have
| degrees and these traits can be inherent to an individual and or
| they depend on his or her situation and circumstance, it's
| unfortunate that popular reports don't echo facts as they
| actually exist.
|
| Read into the following comment whatever you wish: whilst the
| pandemic has forced many changes to my life such as being in
| lockdown and often isolated from others/family for long periods,
| I can say honestly that this isolation has never been an issue
| with me. In fact, I've rather enjoyed the lockdown despite its
| obvious inconveniences. Being free of having to bother with
| social events, or being on time for work or appointments, or
| having to deal with a myriad of other time-driven events, has
| been rather liberating. As the article points out, I've been free
| to do many other activities that introverts find _' interesting
| and energizing'._ And they're mostly activities that I otherwise
| have never had sufficient time to do--anyway not to the extent
| that I would have wished. I've even had more time to read HN
| articles and to make pontifical pronouncements thereon. ;-)
|
| Nevertheless, despite having so many obvious introverted traits I
| know that I'm far from being a definitive/classical case of
| introversion--as my extroversion must often have its say. As I
| said, these matters are complex.
| 0xbadcafebee wrote:
| Lol. Just because you're not a social butterfly doesn't mean
| you're not going to be affected by being locked inside during a
| global fucking pandemic. Absolutely zero people had a great time
| the last 16 months. But introverts clearly suffered less than
| extroverts. This must have been a slow news day.
| irrational wrote:
| I'm an introvert, but I'm also married with 7 children (5 still
| at home). Frankly I got too much human contact during the
| lockdown. When I would go into the office pre pandemic I could go
| to my cubicle, hunker down and not deal with anyone for many
| hours at a time. Not so easy when I don't have an office at home
| and the kids are all doing school from home. However, I did find
| I was much happier and had much improved mental health by working
| from home. All things considered, the lockdown was fantastic for
| me. 10/10 would recommended again.
| archsurface wrote:
| BBC attempting to sway/nudge/gaslight, as usual. Firstly, it
| wasn't a lockdown, that's just the fear motive militaristic
| terminology they thought would achieve their goals - so much was
| open, and traffic congestion across cities daily, it could be
| called a slowdown or a partial shutdown, but "lockdown" is just
| transparent. The slowdown is the reason I haven't quit my current
| employer; my social life is just as crap as it was before, and
| every other aspect of my life has improved thanks to the
| slowdown. I absolutely won.
| Angostura wrote:
| I've read this several times, but I'm nit actually clear what
| you are accusing the BBC or the government of. It's reasonable
| to call the first even from March 2020 a 'lockdown'. The rules
| in the UK were pretty clear - unless you are a keyworker don't
| leave your house apart from essential shopping or 1 hour of
| local excercise.
|
| Since then restrictions have been eased in what can probably
| best be described as partial lockdowns.
| archsurface wrote:
| How clear the rules are is irrelevant - they were
| theoretical, an occasional example made, but no one really
| gave a damn. If you followed those rules you're a gullible
| sucker, most people were in the parks drinking and
| socialising.
| chownie wrote:
| What universe are you in? April 2020 lockdown left the
| streets in Manchester dead for the first and only time I've
| ever seen, I think you might be revising history a bit
| archsurface wrote:
| In London the parks were full, the ice cream shops were
| open, and if you think anyone was having their exercise
| limited to one hour a day you're unfortunately
| subservient. I have never worn a mask, and I have been on
| multi-hour rides around London without seeing a single
| mask. Dog walkers were all stopping for chats, people
| gathering at duck ponds for chats, parties continued to
| be had. My condolences to Manchester, it seems to have
| naive understanding of how the world works; stand up or
| get stepped on.
| the-dude wrote:
| > "Introverts should use this period to readjust and to make
| their way slowly back into their social life."
|
| As opposed to extraverts, who don't have to adjust.
| [deleted]
| MattGaiser wrote:
| So what was it that made one a winner of lockdown? As I was
| definitely a winner. This discussion is going to flood with
| people who also where quite cozy under lockdown. What is the
| difference there?
| dannyw wrote:
| * being wealthy (stocks, property, crypto exploded)
|
| * office job, bonus points if open office or long commute
|
| * in a relationship or happily single
|
| * not laid off
| unklefolk wrote:
| One thing I have missed as an introvert is the "people watching"
| aspect. I don't need to be at the centre of things and don't
| enjoy big social occasions, but do enjoy walking around a
| bustling city, taking in the atmosphere. It feels like the world
| has stood still (or at least slowed) and that has made just my
| normal day-to-day less interesting. Introverts aren't
| disinterested in society - they just like to experience it
| differently to extraverts.
| supergirl wrote:
| well it's not really a binary choice. it's a continuum between
| introversion and extraversion
| jlokier wrote:
| I think you missed the point of the comment you replied to.
|
| It's possible to be extremely introverted, preferring no
| explicit social interactions, while still getting a noticable
| peace and energy uplift from being able to just watch and be
| surrounded by other people doing their things.
|
| Think of someone quiet in a coffee shop or library who never
| talks to anyone, but likes being there, not for the coffee or
| the books, but for the ambience.
| technothrasher wrote:
| > Introverts aren't disinterested in society - they just like
| to experience it differently to extraverts.
|
| Depends upon the introvert. I have very little interest in
| society. I don't mean in an academic sense, but I mean I cannot
| stand being in a bustling city or anywhere where there are a
| lot of people. It actually makes me feel lonely. Having no
| people in public places has been mostly a relief to me,
| honestly.
| tboyd47 wrote:
| There aren't any measurable elements of personality that are
| fixed. Personality changes as you age. I've witnessed a reversal
| in each of the Myers-Briggs markers in the past 15 years (from
| INTJ to ESFP) -- not intentionally, but that's just the way my
| life played out.
|
| I've come to see the truth of the matter like this: every human
| being has a need for socializing, but it takes effort and is
| exhausting. The amount of effort it takes and the degree to which
| it is exhausting differs from person to person, but it is not
| fixed. Socializing is like a muscle or a skill that can atrophy
| with neglect or develop with training.
|
| It's also completely relative. I consider myself extroverted, but
| having grown up in the suburbs mostly hanging around my brother
| and a few close friends, I'm really not that used to other
| people. I get socially drained quickly. I have a friend who
| considers himself introverted, but grew up in a densely populated
| city, so he's comfortable being around a lot of people for longer
| than I am.
| perardi wrote:
| Agreed on the mutability of these traits.
|
| I have definitely become _more_ of an extrovert as I've gotten
| older. Only child of only children growing up in a rural
| area...kind of an incubator for introversion. But having lived
| in a big city, been out in the world, seen what there it to be
| seen, I've become far more outgoing. _[also maybe drugs, i
| dunno]_
|
| And I am coming out of the pandemic times rarin' to go.
| Arguably too much--I am purposefully having a slow weekend
| after the madcap last 2 weeks.
| QuesnayJr wrote:
| I think one of the reasons psychologists reject Myers-Briggs is
| because it's not unusual for your results to change from test
| to test. The test that they prefer (the Big 5), does have
| introversion versus extroversion as one of its axes, though.
| C-x_C-f wrote:
| It's incredible to me how we see NLP models with billions of
| parameters struggling to act human even on paper, yet somehow
| many influential people still claim that the Myers-Briggs type
| indicator can give predictive value to a 4-bit model of human
| personality.
|
| I get that most people are likely unaware of the measures of
| complexity involved in these issues, but at the very least I
| would expect today's intellectual trendsetters to stop giving
| any further validation to such an obsolete piece of
| pseudoscience once and for all.
| ravi-delia wrote:
| Myers-Briggs obviously doesn't represent some fundamental
| truth about how personalities vary, but I'm willing to bet
| that no matter how you ask people questions about themselves
| there will be useful conclusions to draw. Certainly some
| people are more sociable than others, some more detail-
| oriented than others, and vary on any other traits you care
| to name. Given that they are all probably hopelessly
| correlated with each other, and with whatever variables are
| actually controlling things underneath, it would be difficult
| to come up with a test that didn't say something.
|
| On a far more speculative note, I bet most of the complex
| parts of the brain don't vary much between people, or at
| least don't play into personality much. That's not backed up
| by anything though, just an idle thought.
| mason55 wrote:
| And if you are going to talk about personality traits then at
| LEAST talk about ones with some scientific backing (the Big
| 5)
| Noumenon72 wrote:
| The Big 5 replicate, but that's about all; they don't
| predict, work across cultures, and they're not really
| orthogonal. https://carcinisation.com/2020/07/04/the-
| ongoing-accomplishm...
| GuB-42 wrote:
| I don't think personality changes that much.
|
| People can get more social skills as they age, regardless of
| their personality, and it may appear as extraversion, but I
| don't think of it as a core change. You don't have to enjoy
| socializing to do it, just like you don't need to love your job
| to be good at it. Introverts with good social skills simply do
| the necessary amount of socialization to fulfill their needs
| the go back into their head once their are done.
|
| But while people mature, get new hobbies, get jobs, become
| parents, etc... Barring extreme situation, their core
| personality tends to stay the same, they just transfer. For
| example, an online game addict may end up getting out a lot
| more and vice versa, but online or outside, if they are
| extraverts, they will tend to have a lot of social
| interactions. It is usually apparent when people lose self
| control.
| brailsafe wrote:
| I disagree, or at least would point to it being anecdotal.
| All the online game addicts I know that are still
| introverted, are less social then they've ever been
| regardless of whether they still play games. If anything
| they've become more so, either in games or with some other
| thing. These people don't have any problem with how much they
| spend gaming. However my online gaming addict friends,
| including myself, do have a problem with it, and deliberately
| choose not to on the basis that it encourages social
| isolation and destructive tendencies.
| kristofferR wrote:
| Agree!
|
| One of the most harmful beliefs about the concept of
| intro-/extroversion is that it is something you are and not
| something you do. Many people limit themselves massively
| because of how they've labeled themselves.
|
| Especially in "strong introverts", the label is often used as a
| convenient excuse for not going through the often painful
| process of trying to improve their confidence skills and social
| skills. "I'm an introvert" is often the easy way out.
| sidlls wrote:
| Sorry if this is uncharitable, but your comment reads
| strongly like something an oblivious extrovert would write.
| Consider this statement: "she's only a lesbian because she
| hasn't been fucked the right way by a guy" and how horribly
| awful and wrong it is. It's the same as your comment.
| cpuguy83 wrote:
| Your lived experience is not anything like any other human on
| this planet. I would not presume to know what other people
| experience or discount their perception of, particularly of
| themselves and what makes them feel good or feel bad.
| Clubber wrote:
| So I go back and forth. Sometimes I'm an extrovert, like when
| I've had a few beers and at a party. Sometimes I'm an
| introvert. For extroverts, socializing is like air, they need
| it to feel healthy (or to live in some cases). For
| introverts, socializing is like water. You can swim in it or
| tread water, but it takes effort and you tire quickly. Sure
| it can be refreshing sometimes, but it wears you out and you
| don't wanna do it every day.
|
| That's about the best way I can sum it up for how it works in
| my mind.
| TheOtherHobbes wrote:
| You could just as well argue that "strong extroverts" are
| using a convenient excuse to avoid the painful process of not
| getting to know and appreciate themselves on their own terms.
|
| It's certainly true - actually tautological - that introverts
| are missing social opportunities.
|
| Is it impossible that extroverts are missing experiences of
| equivalent value?
| fshr wrote:
| Do you think most introverts are "getting to know and
| appreciate themselves on their own terms"? I don't think
| most people are introspective while alone - not even most
| introverts.
| tboyd47 wrote:
| Aye. It's funny, perusing the other comments in this thread,
| how attached people are to these labels, which really have no
| factual basis at all. We choose the stories that we tell
| about ourselves; yet we act as if the stories chose us.
| MattGaiser wrote:
| I don't think it is so much attachment to labels, but
| rather that people use these articles to deny our
| preferences.
|
| "Humans are social creatures, so you will be happier" is
| what people reply whenever I choose to work at a hackathon
| alone, or prefer to skip all the social events at the
| office, or contemplate working remotely on a permanent
| basis, or back when I was in school and would go to the
| library to read rather than play with other children.
| SamoyedFurFluff wrote:
| I wouldn't go so extreme with this. Sometimes stories _do_
| choose us. I don't know anyone who got to choose the
| circumstances of their birth, for example, or the lucky
| breaks and unlucky breaks that happen along the way of
| living. Sometimes they drastically affect our story.
| kristofferR wrote:
| Well, the elements of the story at least.
|
| How we chose to write the story, with the elements we're
| handed, is our decision. We often can't affect what
| happens in the outside world, but how we interpret what
| happens is up to us.
| kristofferR wrote:
| The stories we tell about ourselves also massively shape
| ourselves. We always act how we think, so people should
| choose stories that are beneficial instead of detrimental.
|
| "I'm a introvert who can't be comfortable around other
| people" and "My social skills and confidence aren't where
| they should be, I need to keep working on that" are two
| similar stories with totally different outcomes.
| sokoloff wrote:
| I don't see introversion as " _can't be comfortable_
| around other people" so much as " _doesn't have strong
| desire_ to be around other people" (or the best
| explanation I've heard is "being around other people
| takes energy rather than gives energy").
|
| I'm perfectly content to not be around other people for
| very long periods of time, like months at a time, other
| than buying groceries/supplies. Doesn't bother me a bit,
| while it would drive my wife and kids crazy. I'm also
| perfectly fine when I am around other people, so in my
| case at least, it's just a (lack of) preference rather
| than an inability.
| tonyedgecombe wrote:
| You can definitely improve your social skills, I was
| desperately shy as a teenager but managed to improve that
| once I started working.
|
| However I have always felt that is a mask I wear, it's not
| who I really am and I find it draining when I put it on.
|
| It appears to me the two things (social skills and
| introversion) are somewhat orthogonal.
| erikerikson wrote:
| This feels brutal and mean to read. It seems that you're
| telling me my feelings, preferences, and way of being are
| invalid. Not only that but that I deserve what I've
| experienced because I have not overlaid my sincere core with
| the model proposed to me.
|
| The world is often structured to heavily advantage highly
| social individuals. You're right that being less social or
| even asocial can bear a large accumulative cost.
|
| Still, many of us live in our ways because we've followed our
| feelings and sensations. Trying to mold to the ways of
| interaction and time allocation according to the norms of a
| population that feels alien is wasteful. Instead, I spend my
| life exploring into less socially determined ways of being
| that seem a more functional and thoughtful in my experience.
| They're customized to me and feel great.
|
| In fact, frequently some of my more social friends express a
| sense of relief and comfort when spending time with me. It
| feels more emotionally clean, whole, and loving to them. They
| love it but the population didn't teach them how to be this
| way and they also don't know how to navigate the divide to
| try living in this way more broadly. They appear to recognize
| it's unhealthy but also be tied to and habituated to the way
| of things so that psychologically bridging is too great an
| effort.
|
| Being an introvert is definitely no easy way out. Extroverts
| tell me there's something wrong with me in lots of little
| ways and have excluded me regularly from the little clubs
| that form which has reduced my career trajectory and the
| rewards I receive from society (though I have still become
| greatly rewarded). Most concretely, I suspect that I would
| have had much more capital funding available for my passion
| projects if I had been more sociable. I would also suggest
| that the world would be a better place to live if I had
| received more funding but that's highly speculative.
| kristofferR wrote:
| You seem overly attached to the label of being an
| introvert. The whole post is slightly confusing to me in
| fact.
|
| If you've concluded that other things than increasing
| social skills are more worthwhile pursuits for you in your
| life, then that's great. You do you. However, you can't
| then also complain in the next breath about what your lack
| of social skills, that you won't spend an effort acquiring,
| exclude you from.
|
| "Still, many of us live in our ways because we've followed
| our feelings and sensations." is slightly problematic in my
| view. The hardest things to change are the one that
| conflicts with feelings. It doesn't feel good to start
| exercising it you are overweight for example. Socializing
| with low social skills and confidence doesn't feel good
| either. I'd argue that both are worthwhile efforts, even
| though we need to combat our feelings and fears in order to
| do it.
|
| Again, if you're totally happy right now that's awesome!
| Just don't let "I'm an introvert" be your "I'm big-boned"
| type of excuse for not changing anything if something could
| be improved by change.
| jasode wrote:
| _> You seem overly attached to the label of being an
| introvert. _
|
| I didn't downvote your comments but as counterpoint, I
| think you and tboyd47 are too influenced by the idea that
| "introvert" is merely a label.
|
| Yes, I understand the good intentions for stressing the
| _" label isn't destiny!"_ -- because we always want
| people to improve.
|
| That said, I'm an introvert because that's currently the
| _best description_ of my stable traits. If you didn 't
| know me, I would _not look like an introvert_ to you
| because:
|
| - I'm not shy.
|
| - I don't have poor social skills.
|
| - I'm not uncomfortable around people and do enjoy
| parties.
|
| - I've given presentations to large audiences in Las
| Vegas
|
| ... however, I've always had an _underlying preference_
| for solitary activities over group gatherings. I 've had
| this preference for as a long as I can remember even as a
| little boy. Even the later adult years of consulting work
| where I went out for drinks and dinner _every night_ with
| buddies does not change that.
|
| I actually noticed the pattern of solitary pursuits in my
| life _first_ -- and then I later found the word _"
| introvert"_ that matched it.
|
| It's like being "right-handed" or "left-handed". I'm
| right-hand dominant and _it 's a stable trait that
| doesn't change_ even if I learn to type 'Q' and 'Z' a
| million times with my left hand on a QWERTY keyboard. The
| label "right-handed" didn't make me right-handed. And
| learning new skills with my left hand will _improve my
| life_ but will still not change my internal right-
| handedness.
|
| Going to more social parties _does not train me to be
| less introverted_. Instead, it actually reveals to me how
| introverted I truly am. Yes, I can laugh and make small
| talk with everyone -- but it doesn 't change the
| _underlying feeling_ that I 'd rather be somewhere else.
|
| If the word "introvert" is useless because some people
| think it's a changeable trait... then I don't know what
| _alternative word_ to use to describe that unchanging
| stable preference that I 've had all my life.
| WarOnPrivacy wrote:
| This is very familiar to me. I can work a room but when
| that's done I want to be gone.
| erikerikson wrote:
| I am not terribly attached to the term introvert but it
| seems the best available term that communicates a dynamic
| I experience. Maybe lean into that confusion?
|
| Certainly, we would agree that to socialize one needs to
| try doing it and grow. Sometimes there will be failures
| and consequences.
|
| I've done the work to acquire my social skills and would
| hazard a speculation that I might have more sophisticated
| social skills than many.
|
| Having to learn a skill to use it is not the thing I am
| objecting to. That is unless by "skills" you mean
| willingness to meaninglessly spend my time and resources
| practicing the skill. To be more concrete, a normality in
| business is checking in with people about their children
| and other important aspects of their lives. I actually
| like that but find it annoying that very few people
| actually want to dig in to any depth and talk about the
| flows of their emotional journeys, their core
| intellectual advanced, the things that they've learned,
| or instructive errors that they've made so that we gain
| wisdom from the conversation. They're responding to
| incentives because having broad social capital has in
| many scopes become a gating function to prosperity. It is
| such that those who enjoy socializing voluminously have
| quite a bit of advantage. I would much rather build and
| create tools that solve problems, or use my socializing
| to really clearly identify the cores of problems so that
| they can be better solved. I completely appreciate the
| value of socialization and collaboration. It is simply
| that those who really enjoy socializing in and for itself
| will dilute conversations to make them less valuable and
| have created a norm of this that seems to me to carry a
| lot of opportunity cost.
|
| We completely agree that sometimes we must experience and
| accept pain and struggle. There's a big difference
| between feeling our efforts and being self displacing.
|
| Consider an engineer who gets positions because they are
| well connected and another who is an effective teammate
| and simply amazing at their job. Which one do you want to
| hire? You're more likely to hire the first. What if
| they're in the same team and the latter did most of the
| work? Often it's the former that gets the recognition.
| jlokier wrote:
| > I actually like that but find it annoying that very few
| people actually want to dig in to any depth and talk
| about the flows of their emotional journeys, their core
| intellectual advanced, the things that they've learned,
| or instructive errors that they've made so that we gain
| wisdom from the conversation.
|
| I'd enjoy doing that with people I work with, but I don't
| think they'd appreciate me asking.
|
| Perhaps as a result I come off as one of those people
| that doesn't want to dig in to any depth about the kinds
| of life aspects you listed.
|
| But I'm optimising for getting along at work without
| coming across as intrusive and probing. I don't want to
| make people uncomfortable by showing too much interest in
| their personal lives and excitements, if they aren't
| volunteering it. There are definitely people who want
| their work life to remain very separate from the rest of
| their life.
|
| If I'm doing that, willing to engage in deep
| conversations about wider aspects of life but optimising
| to not be intrusive at work, perhaps some of the other
| people in your work circle are also doing so.
| rozab wrote:
| This isn't very HN friendly content and certainly is not
| meant to be taken at face value, but here's a vid that kind
| of captures the zeitgeist of the introvert trend:
|
| https://youtu.be/ikw4V_x-CFI
| tboyd47 wrote:
| I can't tell if that guy is being sarcastic or not.
| dogorman wrote:
| This guy seems to be a believer in "punching down" humor.
| He's doing it under the guise of tough love to help people,
| but he's clearly enjoying it way too much. This is a vile
| video; I sure hope you've not ruined my youtube suggestions
| by getting me to watch this.
| Graffur wrote:
| Being an introvert doesn't mean you don't like making eye
| contact or most of the other things that youtuber is
| saying.
| rozab wrote:
| No, that's the point he's trying to make. He's commenting
| on the label being used by a certain group of people as
| an explanation/justification for their lack of social
| skills and contact.
|
| If you go on the r/introvert subreddit there's a load of
| people talking about their crippling loneliness and
| social anxiety. These people crave social contact, they
| don't seem like introverts to me, but they seem to have
| convinced themselves they have some personality trait
| that makes social connection impossible.
| fumar wrote:
| You are right people shouldn't be prescribed labels. You
| think people are limiting themselves because of labels. Isn't
| it the other way around? People act in such a way that they
| believe a label describes their personality or behavioral
| pattern?
|
| I think you are the one mislabeling people. Being an
| introvert doesn't mean social skills are low. You might work
| with or be friends with strong introverts and have no idea.
|
| There is also this idea that as an extrovert you have great
| social skills. I know plenty of people who crave social
| experiences, attention, or constant companionship that have
| poor social skills. You know them - they may say hurtful
| things, claim their own jokes as funny and laugh at them,
| disregard other people's feelings, lack the ability to
| control their vocalizations or comments, get in people's
| faces, create distractions, try to control conversations,
| etc. You get the point. Should those "strong extroverts" work
| hard at improving their social skills? Sometimes that means
| not talking or seeking solace in their own thoughts before
| entering a an existing social gathering.
| jlokier wrote:
| Thank you for highlighting that extrovert behaviour can be
| accompanied by poor social skills and introverts can be
| highly skilled socially.
|
| It seems to be a moderately common assumption in
| discussions like these that the extrovert is the one with
| social skills and the introvert finds them difficult, but
| the reverse is often true.
|
| Think about someone who is often out and seems to be
| consistently loud, boisterous and showing poor social
| awareness to the point of irritating others in social
| settings. That's a sign of poor social skills that I'd
| associate with extroversion.
|
| Compare with someone who is quiet, thoughtful, and rarely
| seen, but when they are seen they seem to be caring,
| interesting and listen thoughtfully and engage with each
| person they talk with, leaving a positive impression each
| time. That's high social skill.
| bluefirebrand wrote:
| Introversion has nothing to do with social skills or
| confidence. Being an introvert is not the same as being shy
| or awkward.
|
| Introversion is a measure of what effect socializing has on
| you, and how comfortable you are being alone.
|
| Extroverts dislike being alone, Introverts like it.
| Extroverts feel energized by social interaction, Introverts
| feel drained by it.
|
| That's it. I'm tired of these ignorant "Introverts are just
| socially awkward and if they just went out more they would be
| cured" type takes.
| kristofferR wrote:
| Here's the thing. I used to be an extreme introvert by all
| standards, and preferred being alone. Social interaction
| was extremely tiring. Now I'm comfortable both with people
| and alone.
|
| However, the real question is why it was tiring. It was
| tiring because I wasn't comfortable, it wasn't second
| nature. It took extra effort, just like all other the
| things we do that we aren't good at doing. When it
| eventually became easier and took less effort, it naturally
| also became less tiring.
|
| I wish we could just stop with the stupid binary
| introvert/extrovert terminology. It's on the same pseudo-
| scientific level as saying people are left-brained or
| right-brained, people aren't that binary or simple.
|
| If I, 10 years ago, had just said to myself "I'm an
| introvert, social interactions aren't my thing and they
| make me tired" I'd likely be significantly less happy than
| I'm now.
| sidlls wrote:
| You're setting up a strawman version of
| intro/extroversion discuss, and missing what everyone
| else is telling you.
| lamontcg wrote:
| > One of the most harmful beliefs about the concept of
| intro-/extroversion is that it is something you are and not
| something you do.
|
| Nope. I'm not neurotypical. Stop trying to gaslight me into
| thinking I'm flawed because I'm not extroverted please. This
| rationale is the gay conversion therapy for introverts.
| jm__87 wrote:
| I think it depends on how you define what an introvert is. By
| your definition, it is someone who lacks confidence and
| social skills. I see a lot of people use the word introvert
| to mean "prefers spending time alone to socializing". This
| person may have all the confidence and social skills in the
| world but just prefers spending time alone, for whatever
| reason.
| macromaniac wrote:
| I don't think introversion comes from not wanting to learn to
| interact, but from not seeing a reason to. Anecdotally, I
| switched from introvert to extravert when I changed the focus
| of the conversation from knowledge transfer to just trying to
| have fun, I'm sure everyone has their own reason X for being
| introverted or extroverted.
| ball_of_lint wrote:
| I am an introvert with reasonable social skills and a healthy
| amount of social interaction in my life (3+ nights a week
| spent with friends). Being an introvert doesn't mean I cannot
| do or enjoy social things, it means that social things
| require effort+energy from me and I want an appropriate
| amount of time spent alone to recharge afterward.
| dboreham wrote:
| Attachment style probably doesn't change.
| surajs wrote:
| i don't think a global pandemic is a chance to 'win' anything,
| wtf bbc.
| Noumenon72 wrote:
| Mood affinity. If pandemics are bad, the results should be bad.
| Never mind people who were able to move back home with their
| family, who got jobs because they do better in remote
| interviews, who escaped crowded workspaces with throat-clearing
| coworkers.
|
| It might be insensitive to crow about winning from the pandemic
| in a conversation, but it definitely happened in fact.
| ramonramarth wrote:
| I'm an introvert and I did win lockdown. So that article is
| wrong. In science, if you make a statement like that, all you
| need is a single example to disprove it. It's like saying there's
| no such thing as a black swan.
|
| Sure there was a bit of unhappiness with the virus situation, but
| once I figured out that I didn't have to constantly watch the
| news for scraps of info, and got on with my day, and once I
| figured out that every day looked the same, and I needed to
| change it up a bit, it was nothing but happiness.
|
| Recently one of my coworkers got lonely and decided to tell
| everyone else to come work from the office one day and we could
| go drinking afterwards. Nope. As much as I like my coworkers, but
| I've zero desire to commute to the office.
|
| Another thing that I've noticed is that now that there's no
| external interaction with those same coworkers, I have zero
| desire for alcohol, and I've never felt better.
| ed-209 wrote:
| Yep, too much of a good thing is deadly for this introvert.
| thayne wrote:
| This result doesn't match my experience. As an introvert, I did
| find the lockdown, and especially working from home liberating.
| But perhaps that is because I am married with children, so I
| still had some social interaction.
| supergirl wrote:
| labeling people one of {introvert,extrovert} is literally bigotry
| -- narrowing down their personality into one of these 2 choices
| and then making wild assumptions.
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