[HN Gopher] "One Day Longer and Those 13 Boys Would Be Dead"
___________________________________________________________________
"One Day Longer and Those 13 Boys Would Be Dead"
Author : Tomte
Score : 340 points
Date : 2021-07-10 12:29 UTC (10 hours ago)
(HTM) web link (www.zeit.de)
(TXT) w3m dump (www.zeit.de)
| jtchang wrote:
| It's only after the rescue that they can give retrospectives on
| exactly how difficult things were at the time. My utmost respect
| goes out to each of these heroes for doing what needed to be done
| even at the possible cost of their own lives.
| sdfsadfjaslj wrote:
| https://archive.is/j6410
| dt3ft wrote:
| Thank you.
| wizzwizz4 wrote:
| That's only one page.
| chris_overseas wrote:
| There's a link to page 2 at the bottom https://archive.is/o/j
| 6410/https://www.zeit.de/wissen/2021-0...
| wizzwizz4 wrote:
| It redirected to a paywall when I clicked it. (But it was
| that exact link, before the redirect. Strange.)
| tpmx wrote:
| Someone archived it too, eventually. Looks like
| archive.is/archive.today rewrites links to URLs it has
| archived.
| detaro wrote:
| and if you click the link to the second page you get to ...
| the second page.
| [deleted]
| sandebert wrote:
| Season one of the podcast "Against all odds" is also about this.
|
| https://wondery.com/shows/against-the-odds/
| fab1an wrote:
| The most harrowing thing I have read in a long time. I can't even
| begin to fathom the immense bravery of these divers - and that of
| the boys. I didn't really follow the Musk bit of the story, but
| the fact that he had the audacity to shitpost about any of these
| guys make me think vastly less of him (and I'm usually in the
| Musk-respecter camp)
| throwaway2048 wrote:
| Lets not make this comments section about an idiots
| disparagement of a hero.
| camjohnson26 wrote:
| Vernon Unsworth. He sued Musk for libel in the United States
| and lost. Musk not only called him "pedo guy" on Twitter, but
| implied he had married a child bride, when he hadn't, and later
| hired a private investigator to dry to dig up dirt on Unsworth,
| which found nothing. Musk also sent this letter to Buzzfeed
| where he doubled down. He thought it was off the record, and
| says some terrible things:
| https://www.buzzfeednews.com/article/ryanmac/elon-musk-thai-...
|
| It came out later that the private investigator was scamming
| Elon Musk, and lied to him about finding damaging information.
| https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2019/oct/08/elon-musk...
|
| Bizarrely, Unsworth's lawyer was L Lin Wood, famous for later
| apparently having a mental breakdown and supporting conspiracy
| theories accusing chief justice John Roberts of pedophilia and
| murder, and being asked to undergo a mental examination by the
| state bar of Georgia.
|
| L Lin Wood's handling of the Unsworth trial was widely panned
| as incompetent. Unsworth is clearly a hero, and Musk inserting
| himself into that situation and permanently tainting Unsworth's
| name was unconscionable.
|
| https://reason.com/2020/12/31/pro-trump-lawyer-tries-to-impl...
|
| https://reason.com/2021/01/31/treating-lin-woods-wild-conspi...
|
| https://www.businessinsider.com/elon-musk-defamation-win-mis...
| FearlessNebula wrote:
| This doesn't excuse Elon slandering Vernon Unsworth, but
| didn't Vernon talk shit about Elon's good faith attempt at
| making a submarine to try to rescue the people?
| camjohnson26 wrote:
| Musk's submarine was a joke. The video of it shows it was
| clearly too large and too rigid to maneuver through the
| caves. Musk said they would make a video showing the
| submarine going from point a to b, but never did. Watch these
| videos of Unsworth both after the rescue and the trial and
| compare them to Musk's response. It was absolutely sickening.
|
| https://youtu.be/uDP6_4jUmiQ
|
| https://www.bbc.com/news/av/technology-50698294
|
| https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gHJZGcj5KHU
| mseidl wrote:
| I'll have to find the video, but he said that sub wouldn't
| have made it through the first 50m.
| [deleted]
| astoor wrote:
| As well as completely transforming many people's view of Musk
| (he ceased to be "the least bad billionaire" for many), the
| case also reflected extremely badly on the US legal system,
| showing that if you are rich enough you can get away with
| pretty much anything.
| tialaramex wrote:
| "Least bad billionaire" is a weird tag to give Musk.
|
| I mean, there are a bunch of people who either inherited a
| billion dollars or married into it, and, not being
| psychopaths, they just decided to spend that money doing
| good and have done with it. That seems pretty easily to be
| "less bad" than somebody like Bill Gates, Elon Musk, or
| Warren Buffett who set out to acquire wealth..
|
| I guess if you've got a really out-there moral utility
| function maybe saving the eyesight of a million children or
| whatever counts for nothing while making a slightly better
| toaster oven is a 100% goal achieved, but outside that I
| can't see any way Musk could be the "least bad
| billionaire".
|
| Actually I can see a case for a different weird utility
| function _if_ we also had some billionaires who got wealthy
| from scientific discoveries or mathematical breakthroughs
| or philosophical insights. If Martin Hellman had earned
| $100M per year since the 1980s for licensing fees from DH
| kex he could be a billionaire and we could argue about
| whether that 's an important thing to give to the world. Or
| if Judith Butler had become fabulously wealthy explaining
| to people that gender is a social construct, she'd be a
| billionaire and we could argue whether that was great. But
| in reality we do not pay philosophers or cryptographers
| billions of dollars, that sort of money goes to somebody
| like Musk or Bezos.
| shawabawa3 wrote:
| JK Rowling is a good example. She became a billionaire
| from writing Harry Potter but didn't stay one for long as
| she donated most of it
| [deleted]
| anonymousiam wrote:
| Happy Birthday Nikola Tesla July 10, 1856 - January 7, 1943
|
| https://www.news18.com/news/lifestyle/nikola-tesla-birth-
| ann...
| mcguire wrote:
| " _Bizarrely, Unsworth 's lawyer was L Lin Wood, famous for
| later apparently having a mental breakdown and supporting
| conspiracy theories accusing chief justice John Roberts of
| pedophilia and murder, and being asked to undergo a mental
| examination by the state bar of Georgia._
|
| " _L Lin Wood 's handling of the Unsworth trial was widely
| panned as incompetent. Unsworth is clearly a hero, and Musk
| inserting himself into that situation and permanently
| tainting Unsworth's name was unconscionable._"
|
| Bizarre! I saw his suits when I went digging through the
| post-election hootenanny. Incompetent would be the gentlest
| way to describe them.
| [deleted]
| jasonwatkinspdx wrote:
| When Musk first appeared I was hugely supportive. Definitely a
| fan of what he was doing both with SpaceX and Tesla.
|
| I'm still a fan of what those companies are doing but Elon has
| destroyed my view of him with his own behavior and words. We
| should stop turning a blind eye to his labor practices.
| Likewise, we should give the engineers and other workers that
| are actually accomplishing these things more credit, vs
| pretending it's one lone genius. Tom Mueller in particular
| deserves far more credit.
| _tulpa wrote:
| I don't really see what Elon actually does beyond cultivating
| public image and having money.
| jamiek88 wrote:
| Let's not go too far the other way now.
|
| He's chief engineer at spacex for starters.
| heavyset_go wrote:
| He's also the Technoking of Tesla. The titles don't mean
| much when he can make them up and give them to himself
| whenever he feels like it.
| delecti wrote:
| Edit: I can admit when I'm wrong. I stand by my assertion
| that it's absurd to call him a founder of Tesla, but his
| position in SpaceX seems to be legit.
|
| ~~He may be _credited_ as chief engineer at SpaceX, but
| that doesn 't mean he's meaningfully contributing to
| actual engineering efforts.~~ He's also _credited_ as a
| founder of Tesla, despite not actually being involved in
| the founding of that company.
| kiba wrote:
| Elon Musk is a real engineer, especially if other
| engineers said he's an engineer.[1]
|
| Whatever his history is with other people or whatever his
| personality flaws or weakness, he's the real deal.
|
| [1]: https://www.reddit.com/r/SpaceXLounge/comments/k1e0t
| a/eviden...
| sx_throwaway wrote:
| I used to work at one of the Musk companies. He was a huge
| mark in the "cons" column when I was deciding whether or not
| to take the job. He is embarrassing and he made me a little
| ashamed to say where I worked. I did my best to ignore him
| and I suspect others did too. No one ever talked about him.
| heavyset_go wrote:
| > _We should stop turning a blind eye to his labor practices.
| Likewise, we should give the engineers and other workers that
| are actually accomplishing these things more credit, vs
| pretending it 's one lone genius._
|
| We also need to hold him to account when Musk tries to ruin
| the lives of his employees who speak up about what goes on in
| his companies. He even tried to frame one of them as a mass
| shooter to police[1] in an effort to get them SWAT'd.
|
| [1] https://www.bloomberg.com/news/features/2019-03-13/when-
| elon...
| [deleted]
| tedivm wrote:
| Gwynne Shotwell deserves far more of the credit for SpaceX
| than Musk does.
| s5300 wrote:
| And Musk _repeatedly_ publicly gives this to her /says this
| himself.
| dylan604 wrote:
| Most large companies have people that deserve more credit
| than the sitting CEO. However, that's part of the role of
| CEO is to be the one people look to as being in "charge".
|
| Musk definitely doesn't shy away from that part to his
| detrement (clearly he doesn't see it that way). But I'm
| firmly with the previous poster in that I like what
| Tesla/SpaceX are doing and attempting, but think Musk is a
| bit of a tool. The irony is not lost on me that sometimes a
| calmer figurehead might not have been able to lead to
| success a company like Tesla and/or SpaceX.
| mcguire wrote:
| Musk first appeared as what eventually became that
| universally loved company, PayPal. Which he was booted out
| of. Twice.
| jimbob45 wrote:
| No one here turns a blind eye to his labor practices.
| Everyone here at HN knows to steer clear. It's everyone that
| doesn't frequent this website that needs enlightening.
| exporectomy wrote:
| > We should stop turning a blind eye to his labor practices.
|
| Aren't there legal systems to make sure that's being done
| right? Is "we" some labor inspectors?
|
| If you want to give credit to engineers, where does it end?
| There are millions of engineers in the world doing important
| things. Crediting that many people will dilute the value of
| it all.
| heavyset_go wrote:
| > _Aren 't there legal systems to make sure that's being
| done right? Is "we" some labor inspectors?_
|
| "We" can be past, current and future employees, who might
| not contact or work with labor inspectors out of reverence
| to "the mission" or Musk himself.
| uoaei wrote:
| What the fuck is this dark pattern? You must agree to ads before
| later revoking consent?
| happynacho wrote:
| Non-paywall?
| jauhar wrote:
| you can view the article if you click the green "i agree"
| button
| janci wrote:
| I still don't get it. The tunnels were too narrow near the
| ceilling, but wide near the floor. The divers could not keep at
| the floor because they could not navigate due to zero visibility,
| zero communication and no tether points.
|
| Would not a sonar help? A full spacesuit-like helmet with air to
| be able to talk via radio? Laying down some flexible tunnels that
| could be inflated with air or maybe just pumped with clear water
| to gain visibility? So many ideas come to mind, but they chose
| the most difficult transport of sedated and tied up kids ever. I
| assume they had a good reason, but still do not understand it.
| brazzy wrote:
| > Would not a sonar help?
|
| Portable sonar systems with in-helmet displays were put in use
| by the US Navy only last year: https://www.navalnews.com/naval-
| news/2021/03/us-navy-teams-w...
|
| > A full spacesuit-like helmet with air to be able to talk via
| radio?
|
| Would fuck up your buoyancy, but there are systems where you
| have only an air pockt around your mouth. But the range would
| be so low as to be nearly useless inside a cave.
|
| > Laying down some flexible tunnels that could be inflated with
| air or maybe just pumped with clear water to gain visibility?
|
| Even assuming that you had those already available, laying them
| would be a very slow process, and they would be a hindrance
| rather than help in very narrow passages.
| bccdee wrote:
| This may be a somewhat silly question, but why couldn't they
| just have used flashlights? I'm sure there's an obvious
| reason, but I don't know what it is.
| biasedbrain wrote:
| Mud
| jgwil2 wrote:
| I assume it wasn't just darkness they were dealing with,
| but also that the water was so muddy it became opaque, in
| which case lights wouldn't have helped them.
| ben0x539 wrote:
| I assumed it's not just darkness but mud.
| lamontcg wrote:
| > Would not a sonar help?
|
| I'm not even sure what you're envisioning but something
| lightweight and not bulky that is capable of producing sonar
| images similar to whatever the detectors were in Aliens doesn't
| exist. And it was zero viz and in completely zero viz you can
| barely see your hand in front of your mask, assuming you have
| illumination.
|
| > A full spacesuit-like helmet with air to be able to talk via
| radio?
|
| That creates a dead space that fills up with CO2, you'd need to
| actively pump that out through the rebreather which now creates
| more things to bash into rock and fail and kill you, plus
| generates more bulk which is the last thing you want into those
| tight caves.
|
| You can use a full face mask (FFM) that has comms with a
| rebreather but in a single file cave there's no point and cave
| divers know how to communicate in single file in zero viz by
| touch contact. And there's not much to communicate since either
| you're moving or you're temporarily stuck and the person behind
| you can't really help you much. With a rebreather you can also
| talk pretty well in water if you're just close enough to each
| other. I've also managed to communicate effectively by talking
| into a normal scuba regulator as well, without having to write
| anything down.
|
| > Laying down some flexible tunnels that could be inflated with
| air or maybe just pumped with clear water to gain visibility?
|
| That would probably take weeks and you'd be fighting the
| pressure of the incoming water inside of the cave. Air probably
| wouldn't work at all, you'd need to build a pressure
| differential airlock so that's likely impossibly complicated.
| Water might work if you built a reservoir at a higher altitude
| to gain pressure, but them you need to pump the water up there
| and you need flexible inflatable tubing that can hold a couple
| atmospheres of pressure and is large enough for a human, and I
| think I'd prefer to be surrounded by rock rather than by saran
| wrap that could fail and I'd get entangled it in the shredded
| plastic and drown. No thanks. As evidenced by the successful
| recovery, zero viz can be dealt with.
|
| > So many ideas come to mind, but they chose the most difficult
| transport of sedated and tied up kids ever. I assume they had a
| good reason, but still do not understand it.
|
| They're all trained at more or less doing that, they've been
| through the environment, and they've all been through rescue
| training to drag an unconscious buddy out of the cave.
| Strapping the kids down, giving them sedatives and putting a
| FFM on them solved all the problems of taking someone out of
| the cave that wasn't trained in diving at all. It gives you the
| smallest package to drag out of the cave along with giving you
| access to the kids. The coffin that Musk was proposing was more
| or less just that. By trying to keep the kids dry, now you have
| CO2 problems, you need a scrubber in the coffin and you need
| strong enough walls to deal with the pressure differential,
| that creates bulk and makes it more difficult to move through
| the restrictions, and if anything goes wrong the kids suffocate
| and die and there's no access to them at all.
|
| From the perspective of a trained cave diver the solution that
| they used was nearly perfect.
| cirrus3 wrote:
| > I still don't get it.
|
| Clearly not. Why does someone always have to assume they know
| better?
|
| > they chose the most difficult transport
|
| What are you even basing this statement on?
| janci wrote:
| I do not assume I know better. I am just asking why any of
| these ideas would not work.
|
| > What are you even basing this statement on?
|
| As I understand it, the transport was immensely difficult.
| The divers and the rescued kids were at great danger. It is
| unbelievable to me they managed to save them without any
| special solution.
|
| I'm sorry if my comment was misunderstood.
| fastasucan wrote:
| How do you know that this wasn't the easiest/only option?
| (Since you said it was the hardest).
| fastasucan wrote:
| Im amazed that you come to the conclusion that the people who
| work with this and risked their lives didn't have these obvious
| ideas rather than there is reasons why they wouldn't work that
| you dont understand.
| anonydsfsfs wrote:
| What? The GP didn't come to that conclusion. It's pretty
| clear to me they're trying to understand the thought process
| of the rescuers and why they rejected the obvious ideas.
| Asking an expert why they decided against something is a
| great way to learn what works and what doesn't work. It
| doesn't mean you're insinuating the expert is an idiot.
| heisenzombie wrote:
| I've had very limited experience of low/no visibility diving -
| it's hard to overstate how incredibly difficult it is to
| accomplish anything. You can't see anything, you can only hear
| your own loud disorienting breathing, you can't feel gravity,
| your sense of time goes completely out of the window. It makes
| moving very short distances hilariously slow. You constantly
| have to keep yourself oriented in full 3D space. If I had
| dropped something 10 centimetres from my face, I may have never
| found it. Trying to map out alternate routes through kilometres
| of unknown cave system with incredible time pressure? It's a
| miracle they found even one route.
| McDyver wrote:
| A sonar wouldn't help in such a pressing situation. The sonar
| would only provide a map that would still need to be
| interpreted, and wouldn't solve the actual problem of
| transporting the boys.
|
| Those "helmets" exist, but helmets as such are used in
| commercial diving with a tether to the diver. Not very
| practical to have it running along the cave for multiple
| divers. The full face masks that allow that are mainly used in
| open circuit diving and are bulky. I don't know if the
| pros/cons would make a huge difference.
|
| At one point I believe Tesla or just Musk were planning and
| developing a pod to carry each boy, but the tunnels and sumps
| were so narrow that they wouldn't be able to make the turns.
|
| Having tunnels with compressed air to inflate them would have
| similar issues with the bends. Not to mention the amount of gas
| and pressure needed to displace all that water.
|
| I guess they took the most direct and logistically available
| option. I'm sure it will be a case study for the future.
| laingc wrote:
| What is outrageous is that the divers got at most an MBE - on the
| same New Years Honours list where heroes such as Michael Palin
| and Twiggy received knighthoods.
|
| I have never seen anything really deserving of a knighthood than
| what those divers did.
| pmyteh wrote:
| The two lead divers (Richard Stanton and John Volanthen) both
| got the George Medal, the UK's second highest civilian award
| for gallantry. I think the knighthood is seen more as a kind of
| national treasure long service award these days.
| bastawhiz wrote:
| This man showed some extreme self restraint in not even bringing
| up Elon Musk beyond a casual mention of the submarine idea. If
| Elon had called me a pedo because I didn't use his spaceship
| submarine I don't think I'd have held back quite as much.
| tpmx wrote:
| Musk wrote that tweet about a separate UK diver.
|
| Still, this Finnish diver did show remarkable restraint here.
| muthdra wrote:
| I respect Musk more than many commenters you see around. I
| understand he's not the billionaire savior many people seem
| to believe. I remember him mentioning something about how the
| sub couldn't go wrong because if the kids got there and the
| water rose, it should get where the kids were. How feasible
| was it, really?
| nradov wrote:
| It was never even remotely feasible. Musk's design was
| simply too large to fit through the restrictions in the
| cave. It's the kind of nonsense that only someone with no
| real diving experience could come up with.
| TheParkShark wrote:
| The restrictions were in the upper part. The article
| explains the boys walked in through a much larger path
| underneath.
| freeopinion wrote:
| Musk had no diving experience, and no knowledge of these
| caves. He was working from incomplete knowledge and
| intuition.
|
| Almost all of Musk's critics in the matter were working
| from no knowledge of the caves and little to no diving
| experience. Some of Musk's critics were working from the
| best available knowledge in both areas.
|
| But this diver points out exactly what Musk intuited.
| There was a much easier route for all those boys to have
| hiked into the cave. Musk's submarine would probably have
| worked over that route. But nobody had knowledge of that
| route at the time.
|
| One solution would have been for Musk or somebody to
| build little robots that could explore the caves in zero
| light with sonar mapping equipment. The robots would need
| to navigate and operate underwater and abovewater in very
| difficult terrain. It seems like an impractical pursuit
| under the circumstances. Why even mention such a
| ridiculous idea? Well, why not? Why not put all options
| on the table. You can dismiss the "Have Scotty beam them
| out" stuff immediately. But they were talking about
| establishing supply lines for months to keep them alive
| until the water went down. They were talking about
| drilling holes 1km+ to hopefully tap the chamber where
| those kids were. They were talking all sorts of stuff.
|
| And yes, somebody was talking body-sized submarines. And
| somebody might have been talking about dive robots. And
| sonar mapping.
|
| I was glued to my news feed with a bag of potato chips
| and so were almost all of you. I don't know diving and I
| don't know those caves.
|
| I think the divers who rescued them are mental. I mean
| really crazy. I mean, seriously, who in their right mind
| would do stuff like that? I think the effort just to find
| the kids was risk-taking at a scale that terrifies me.
| Their brains do not work like mine. Thank goodness.
|
| Musk's brain doesn't work like mine, either. I'm not
| going to criticize the divers. They are clearly heroes.
| Musk doesn't come off as a hero in this story. But I'm
| not going to criticize him either. His intuition was
| right. He did more than click reload on his browser for
| two weeks. Nobody else liked his idea. Isn't that the
| story of his life?
|
| In the end, his idea was one of many that were rejected.
| Instead they went with the crazy idea to tie everybody
| up, knock them out, and hope they don't accidentally
| knock their masks off. Who's bright idea was that? Well,
| it worked.
|
| Let's not bag on the people who made tremendous efforts
| to rescue the kids. And let's not bag on the people who
| made some efforts that didn't produce results. And please
| don't bag on me, who did nothing.
| [deleted]
| dang wrote:
| Please let's all show the same restraint.
| [deleted]
| paulpauper wrote:
| except that elon did not initiate the exchange of words. Elon
| proposed his submarine. He was told by the diver Vern Unsworth
| to 'stick his submarine where it hurts'.
| krapp wrote:
| Elon Musk is a grown man, not a child, and he should be
| capable of tact and self control. "He started it" is not a
| valid excuse for his public, slanderous little temper
| tantrum.
| LegitShady wrote:
| capable != required
|
| If he seriously proposes to help and is told to stick it
| where he hurts, he can choose whether or not to respond
| with 'tact and self control' but he isn't required to.
|
| The diver is the one without tact and self control, but you
| slag elon for responding in kind instead of the diver. You
| expect more from musk but musk owes you nothing - not even
| tact. He doesn't have to accept abuse from someone else out
| of fear of losing your good opinion. It literally doesn't
| matter to him at all.
| bwship wrote:
| Musk is still a dick for the comment. He was butt hurt,
| because his stoner idea of a tiny submarine was met with
| the "umm, WTF" that it should by actual people saving the
| kids lives.
| LegitShady wrote:
| I don't disagree but he wasn't a dick in a vacuum -
| someone was a dick to him, he was a dick back. Your
| expectations that musk should just take it on the chin
| without responding in kind are your expectations and
| honestly nothing to do with musk. This guy was rude to
| him, he was rude back, you're disappointed in musk, musk
| doesn't care, you're still fixated on the response rather
| than what set the tone - the original rude message.
|
| I don't see why musk should care about being nice to
| someone who started off being rude.
| detaro wrote:
| Yes, that was his excuse, "back home calling someone a
| pedo was just a normal insult", but Musk did a bit more
| than "was rude back". Hiring a PI to dig up dirt? Sending
| further lies about the guy to media?
| LegitShady wrote:
| its why I don't start fights with billionaires who can
| afford to look into you without effort. I wouldn't do it,
| but once it became a thing I'm 100% every billionaire has
| a firm who looks into people who start fights with them.
| cycomanic wrote:
| If someone is derailing an important rescue, by making
| useless suggestions to please his own ego, what in your
| view is the appropriate response.
|
| What in your opinion should we say to spectators at
| accidents you hinder the rescue workers, by e.g.stanfing
| next to them and giving advice?
| LegitShady wrote:
| The question is the tone - this person was rude first,
| and got a rude reply, and the fixation is on the rude
| reply rather than the one that set the tone.
|
| The tangent about 'hindering rescue workers' has nothing
| to do with reality. they were exchanging messages on
| twitter - it's nonsense to equate that to anything like
| you are.
| dehrmann wrote:
| Musk actually won the defamation case because--my words--
| you can't take anything he says seriously.
| hef19898 wrote:
| Ah, the Tucker defence!
| busterarm wrote:
| Correction, the Rachel Maddow defense.
|
| You have to pick the person to use it first.
| techrat wrote:
| Terrible attempt at a "No, u, lib" retort.
|
| https://www.businessinsider.com/fox-news-karen-mcdougal-
| case...
|
| > A federal judge on Thursday dismissed a lawsuit against
| Fox News after lawyers for the network argued that no
| "reasonable viewer" takes the primetime host Tucker
| Carlson seriously, a new court filing said.
|
| https://www.npr.org/2020/09/29/917747123/you-literally-
| cant-...
|
| >Now comes the claim that you can't expect to literally
| believe the words that come out of Carlson's mouth. And
| that assertion is not coming from Carlson's critics. It's
| being made by a federal judge in the Southern District of
| New York and by Fox News's own lawyers in defending
| Carlson against accusations of slander. It worked, by the
| way.
|
| https://www.cbsnews.com/news/judge-tosses-suit-trump-
| affair-...
|
| > The judge said that lawyers for Fox "persuasively"
| argued that "any reasonable viewer 'arrive[s] with an
| appropriate amount of skepticism' about the statements"
| Carlson makes, according to a court filing.
| [deleted]
| hef19898 wrote:
| From the law suite: A reasonable viewer would not
| actually think OAN is paid Russian propaganda, instead,
| he or she would follow the facts of the Daily Beast
| article; that OAN and Sputnik share a reporter and both
| pay this reporter to write articles," Bashant wrote.
| "Anything beyond this is Maddow's opinion or her
| exaggeration of the facts."
|
| Source: Variety
|
| Reads different from the Tucker defence:
|
| A federal judge on Thursday dismissed a lawsuit against
| Fox News after lawyers for the network argued that no
| "reasonable viewer" would take the network's primetime
| star Tucker Carlson seriously.
|
| Source: Business Insider
|
| Saying some opinion wouldn't be take. serious is _very_
| different from saying the person having thay opinion
| wouldn 't be taken serious.
| kevmo wrote:
| Musk won the case because he had the most expensive
| lawyers in the world.
| Helloworldboy wrote:
| The slander case was dropped because the diver was indeed a
| pedophile
| indigodaddy wrote:
| " Together with Finnish journalist Johanna Elomaa, I wrote the
| book "Sukellus Valoon" (Diving into the Light) about my
| experiences during the rescue mission and how it changed my life"
|
| ^ From page 2 of the article. I Googled for this book but wasn't
| able to find anywhere to buy it. Supposed to have been published
| in 2018. Perhaps no English version yet... was anyone able to
| find the book?
| homarp wrote:
| https://www.johannaelomaa.com/books/sukellus-valoon/#mctmp
| indigodaddy wrote:
| Ah thanks! It's unclear whether there is an English version
| yet. From all indications on that page it appears perhaps
| not. Also the "Order here" link appears non-functioning (at
| least on iOS Chrome).
|
| I'd bet an English version will be not too far in the future
| (I hope!)
| tpmx wrote:
| http://kontextagency.com/non-fiction/diving-into-the-light
|
| Looks like there's only a Finnish original issue and a
| Swedish translation published so far.
| trackofalljades wrote:
| paywalled
| wintorez wrote:
| I wish there was a way to flag behind pay wall links.
| chha wrote:
| There is a couple of other stories that comes to mind,
| unfortunately both of them were about recovering the dead.
|
| "Raising the Dead" is about the accidental discovery of a diver
| in SA, and the recovery efforts there. [1]
|
| "The cave divers who went back for their friends" is about a trio
| of finns who went back into a Norwegian underwater cave system to
| recover two friends who got stuck and died there. [2]
|
| [1] - https://www.outsideonline.com/outdoor-adventure/water-
| activi...
|
| [2] - https://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-36097300
| pontifier wrote:
| 4 friends of friends died in a flooded cave in my home town.
|
| https://www.deseret.com/2005/8/23/19908025/4-drown-in-cave#8
|
| I had been hearing about the cave, and had been invited to go
| there a couple of weeks before this happened. I decided not to
| go because it didn't sound safe. I was concerned about the
| oxygen content of the air pocket and decided it was too
| dangerous.
| goodcanadian wrote:
| This one is more a story of dumb luck, but there was a case of
| a crew member surviving for 2.5 days in an air pocket in his
| sunken ship:
|
| https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/world-africa-25205914
|
| He was discovered by divers hired to investigate the sinking
| and recover the bodies.
| skhr0680 wrote:
| That video is classic. My favorite part is when the diver
| sees the man and "mission control" thinks the diver is
| panicking from seeing a corpse and tries to get him to calm
| down, then the swearing while they're trying to figure out
| what to do.
| djmips wrote:
| How about "What is your rank?" "I'm the cook" "You're the
| cook?" "Yes sir" "They always survive..."
| mongol wrote:
| There is a great documentary about the Finnish cave divers.
| "Diving into the unknown":
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diving_into_the_Unknown
|
| "Last breath" is also a really good documentary about rescue
| under water
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Last_Breath_(2019_film)
|
| Both of these I rate 5/5
| 34679 wrote:
| I'm just going to toss this here because I really enjoyed the
| audiobook:
|
| Shadow Divers - The True Adventure of Two Americans Who
| Risked Everything to Solve One of the Last Mysteries of World
| War II
|
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shadow_Divers
| gpanders wrote:
| This book is absolutely incredible. I just read it
| recently. I didn't expect to like it that much (the
| description doesn't sound _that_ interesting), but Kurson
| is such an excellent author that he totally hooked me.
| Highly recommended.
| pleaser wrote:
| page 1 https://archive.is/j6410
|
| page 2 https://archive.is/d6i50
| pan69 wrote:
| > ...as a teenager, I caused the death of a friend and that
| accident has marked my life. I had largely blocked it out until
| this mission in Thailand.
|
| Whoo. This guy must have gone through so much mental stress
| during this time.
| locallost wrote:
| It's difficult to find the right words. Just reading this felt
| like a million times more intense than anything I ever
| experienced. I felt the stress and claustrophobia the whole time
| as I was reading it. Just wow.
|
| Except Elon Musk is a total juvenile jackass. Those words are
| easy to find. It's a pity he has no shame.
| stanrivers wrote:
| Good lord, I am hyperventilating just reading this. The people
| that went in and saved these boys are amazing. I am glad the
| author took the time to pull this together to share the story of
| the divers as well. Absolutely amazing - mind-boggling amazing -
| what dedicated, skilled, selfless people can do.
| lilSebastian wrote:
| > what dedicated, skilled, selfless people can do.
|
| Save lives and earn the accolade 'Peado guy' from Elon Musk for
| having the audacity to do so.
|
| Edit: the Musk fanboys are heavy on the down votes today.
| arcticbull wrote:
| Yea haha I was going to remind folks of that too. Elon was
| building a submarine that everyone involved told him was a
| terrible idea and to please leave them alone because he was
| hampering the effort, and Elon responded by calling one of
| the lead rescuers a "pedo guy" and got sued over it.
|
| I believe his defense was that "pedo guy" was a common insult
| in South Africa.
|
| Simpler times haha.
| marvin wrote:
| It's probably not worth the effort providing any form of
| defense of any part of Musk's role in this, but his team
| did ask the British lead divers whether they should carry
| on working on the sub (well, underwater transportation
| tank) project, and they received the response that the lead
| divers wished them to continue as a contingency.
|
| Also, one should obviously not falsely accuse someone of
| being a pedophile, including if they tell you to shove your
| submarine up your ass.
|
| But really, this whole thread shows up every time the cave
| story is mentioned, and I think the whole thing just
| detracts from the fantastic international act of heroism
| that the rescue was. It was really a beautiful achievement
| where no adversaries had to be hurt, the kind of uniting
| against the cruel laws of nature that I wish the world
| would see a lot more of.
| lilSebastian wrote:
| Simpler times... 3 years ago...
| arcticbull wrote:
| "Before the war" if you will haha - as in before COVID,
| which has distorted at least my perception of time
| greatly.
| bambax wrote:
| Musk showed his true character.
| Karsteski wrote:
| It was an asshole thing to say, but I don't think someone
| being an asshole means that that moment defines their
| "true character"
| detaro wrote:
| He afterwards paid someone to dig up more dirt and
| emailed media with further lies about the guy. At that
| point it kind of stops being "heat of the moment".
| lilSebastian wrote:
| An expert in the field risks their life to save children,
| is accused of being a peadophile. That's a long way from
| being an a-hole.
| adamisom wrote:
| Yeah if every harmful thing constituted the "true
| character" of someone, we'd all be sinners. Granted, if a
| lot of harm is done, then it might be fair. (Cue the
| knee-jerk "isn't dragging a hero's name through the mud a
| lot of harm?"; I don't know, can you tell me what _wouldn
| 't_ qualify as a "lot of harm" under your worldview?
| Everyone knows the diver was a hero and if you have
| evidence his life is affected, pls share)
|
| It's just negativity bias; considering the negative to be
| "more true" or accurate than the positive.
| dafelst wrote:
| I have a friend of a friend who worked directly under
| Musk at one of his big ventures. Can confirm that Musk is
| a giant egotistical asshole, albeit a brilliant one.
| pjc50 wrote:
| Lots of people say dumb things in the heat of the moment.
| Choosing to stick by it and not apologize is the
| confirmation dialogue for showing your character.
| dylan604 wrote:
| Oh, but it wasn't just that one thing. It's just layer
| upon layer with that guy. This one was pretty damn bad
| though
| s5300 wrote:
| Just like when he gave tens of thousands of kids in Flint
| Michigan safe drinking water the U.S. government has been
| denying them for decades.
| dylan604 wrote:
| >I believe his defense was that "pedo guy" was a common
| insult in South Africa.
|
| This is also what Luis Suarez said about his comment that
| got him in trouble that his comment is common where he's
| from. Just because it's what is said in one place does not
| mean that it is acceptable anywhere else (if even in the
| one place).
| iforgotpassword wrote:
| I was wondering how far they had to dive as soon as I started
| reading, and then when they finally revealed it I was like
| "holy hell!"
|
| It was mentioned that one of the drivers damaged his gear going
| in, and that's the case where it's something attached to your
| body, which you can develop a fair amount of feeling for, like
| you get used to driving a car and just know how wide it is. I
| can't imagine how it must feel to drag along a sedated human
| when you can't see anything. There must have been situations
| where you accidentally hit some obstacle with one of the kids
| and then this dreaded feeling of not knowing if you displaced
| the mask and are now dragging a kid drowning in it's sleep
| across the mud for another hour.
|
| As cheesy as it might sound, this is one of these rare stories
| that restore faith in humanity. Absolutely amazing.
| jonplackett wrote:
| Is there a film being made of this yet?
| cududa wrote:
| No idea why you got downvoted so much, but yes it's out, it's
| called The Cave
| jonplackett wrote:
| Yeah, seemed like a fairly reasonable question!
|
| Thanks! I wonder if it gives as chilling a representation as
| this article. I will go find out!
| mongol wrote:
| What effect did the sedation have? Were they still conscious?
| dingusthemingus wrote:
| Yea this sounded pretty strange to me,
|
| Im aware sedation slows breathing down, so some oxygen can be
| saved if human attached to tank is not hyperventilating for
| hours,
|
| Pretty crazy the kids were sedated and hands bound and feet
| tied!
| thatguy0900 wrote:
| The divers said why, they had previously rescued two adults
| from that cave in a much easier tunnel, but the adults
| panicked underwater and ripped their masks off. The people
| you're saving can easily kill you too if they hit your mask.
| lamontcg wrote:
| Yeah just in Open Water rescue course you learn that people
| will panic and reject all their gear, including the
| regulator that could keep them alive, and will start to rip
| your gear off and try to take you with them.
|
| One of those things that you have to consider, particularly
| if you don't know the person that you're trying to rescue
| is at what point you're basically going to wind up fighting
| back and possibly intentionally drown the other person so
| that you survive. If the person is on the surface of the
| water and you have working scuba gear this can be as simple
| though as just descending and they'll stop trying to kill
| you. I've thought about the problem if you're in a cave and
| someone is nearly OOA and panicking and what would have to
| happen, but that's unlikely enough of a situation that
| hopefully I'll never have to worry about it.
|
| Its real obvious to me why the kids were strapped down and
| pumped full of happy drugs.
| tokai wrote:
| From wikipedia:
|
| <<The effect of ketamine on the respiratory and circulatory
| systems is different from that of other anesthetics. It
| suppresses breathing much less than most other available
| anesthetics.[29] When used at anesthetic doses, ketamine
| usually stimulates rather than depresses the circulatory
| system.>>
| janoc wrote:
| Probably the last thing you would want is an untrained kid to
| panic during the rescue. They would most likely kill both
| themselves and their rescuers in the process.
| masklinn wrote:
| Yes especially during cavediving, it's difficult enough for
| an experienced diver, and panicking / flailing individuals
| can drown would-be rescuers in pools.
| VistaBrokeMyPC wrote:
| The purpose of the ketamine vs other analgesics is you don't
| need to intubate or monitor respiratory system nearly as much
| as you do for say, propofol.
| ianlevesque wrote:
| I don't think so, towards the end the diver stated:
|
| > If need be, we were to give them another shot of ketamine in
| case they were waking up.
| gameswithgo wrote:
| being on ketamine while trapped in a cave would be
| ammmmaaaaazzziinnngg (ly terrifying)
| goldenkey wrote:
| There's a difference between a k-hole and being sedated..
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