[HN Gopher] Senior Google exec opposes remote work, moves to New...
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Senior Google exec opposes remote work, moves to New Zealand to
work remotely
Author : throwawaysea
Score : 163 points
Date : 2021-07-08 21:16 UTC (1 hours ago)
(HTM) web link (www.businessinsider.com)
(TXT) w3m dump (www.businessinsider.com)
| disabled wrote:
| The big question here is how Senior Google executive Urs Holzle
| managed to get a "remote work visa" from the government of New
| Zealand. It reminds me of the "special treatment" that Peter
| Thiel got, where he got New Zealand citizenship after spending
| only 12 days in New Zealand [1].
|
| It is almost non-existent in the western world to be able to get
| a remote-work visa (minus Croatia and Czech Republic--both
| countries are part of the European Union and therefore become
| "westernized" quickly after accession).
|
| Yes, you can technically get _self-employment_, non-remote work
| visas in many European Union countries. But, the point and intent
| of such visas is that you contribute to their economy,
| assimilate, learn the local language, and eventually become a
| functioning contributing citizen in their society.
|
| The hypocrisy of the situation around remote work makes me angry,
| as I am disabled and I require remote work as an accommodation. I
| have 2 rare immune-mediated neurological diseases affecting my
| peripheral nervous system, plus type 1 diabetes (autoimmune and
| insulin-dependent).
|
| I should also point out something else unfair. I am a dual US|EU
| (Croatian) citizen who works part-time remotely as a contractor
| for a US-based company in Croatia, while studying for her masters
| degree in electrical engineering full time. Because I am an EU
| citizen, I can work in 30+ countries remotely, outside of the
| United States, while essentially getting paid more (compared to
| the locals and most other European Union citizens) for just
| having US citizenship and related credentials. I basically live
| like a queen in Croatia.
|
| [1] https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/jun/29/new-zealand-
| ga...
| roca wrote:
| That's a good question. However, as a NZer, I think it's a
| pretty good deal for NZ to admit someone like Holzle even if he
| only stays here for a year. For sure he will contribute to the
| economy by spending significant amounts (we have a sales tax he
| can't evade), and we should be able to collect income tax too.
| It's also good for our tech industry to have people like him
| around.
| perihelions wrote:
| For some context, here's the current situation for New Zealand
| citizens attempting to enter New Zealand (according to newspapers
| -- I'm not from there):
|
| > _" The demand is so high, and the supply so scarce, that any
| rooms that become available disappear within seconds. Dates are
| released completely randomly and can appear any time of the day
| or night, and there's no queue."_
|
| > _" It makes it close to impossible for the average New
| Zealander to get home," said Chris Ruscoe, currently in
| Tennessee, about the high demand and the software enabling people
| to secure rooms so quickly."_
|
| > _" The difficulty and frustration and desperation that these
| folks are feeling, including me - who tried for three weeks,
| 18-plus hours a day and got nowhere."_
|
| https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/national/446516/tech-savvy-kiwis-...
| ("Tech-savvy Kiwis able to use scripts to snap up MIQ spots
| before others")
| alexaholic wrote:
| If senior levels all exercise their option to work remotely, then
| who's going to watch all the underlings in the office?
| planet-and-halo wrote:
| The machines
| ipsum2 wrote:
| Of course, the title is so clickbait-y to be completely false, as
| refuted in the article:
|
| > A Google spokesperson told Insider that Holzle never opposed
| remote work for employees who didn't have a certain seniority
| level or wouldn't be assigned to an office.
| vanusa wrote:
| The very sentence you quote clearly says that the overall claim
| is at least _partially_ true -- indeed, most likely true for
| the majority of reports in his organization.
|
| So it is completely false to say that it is "completely false".
| warent wrote:
| Not that you can blame anyone for missing it; there are so many
| negatives in that text I'm having a hard time decoding what
| it's even saying...
|
| In other words, Holzle had a neutral stance?
| erpellan wrote:
| It reads like the spokesperson specifically and precisely
| refuted the claim put to them exactly as it was stated. We
| can infer nothing - it might be that he thinks nobody should
| work remotely, or everyone should.
| bellyfullofbac wrote:
| A few lines before that:
|
| He [Holzle] strongly opposed remote work for Google employees
| who didn't have a certain seniority level or wouldn't be
| assigned to an office, a resigning employee told CNET.
|
| So, who do we want to believe?
| sangnoir wrote:
| > So, who do we want to believe?
|
| They are both saying the same thing: Holzle opposes the
| peasants working from home. The spokesperson is being
| deliberately opaque/circumspect by saying Holzle never
| opposed senior folk (like him) working from home, but the
| level of seniority is left undefined.
| dorianmariefr wrote:
| both say that it's for senior employees and those without an
| office
| boardwaalk wrote:
| An employee who quit claims the opposite. Do you always believe
| spokespersons? Yikes.
| paxys wrote:
| Do you always believe disgruntled ex-employees?
| delroth wrote:
| I still work at Google and can confirm that. From
| everything I've heard, Urs has strongly opposed remote work
| for years, causing multiple talented and senior people to
| quit.
| stefan_ wrote:
| Yeah, there are regular emails at Google from low-level
| employees telling all about how they are relocating to Cambodia
| for remote work, seeing how they like it, but will occasionally
| drop in via plane. I'm getting so many relocation experiment
| updates I've had to mute the keyword!
|
| Clearly, these are privileges available to all. It's wrong to
| even call them a privilege. Life is one big _adventure_.
| brown9-2 wrote:
| "or wouldn't be assigned to an office" seems to be doing a lot
| here to obscure the true meaning
| mdoms wrote:
| Hmmmm who to believe, someone who was affected by the policy or
| the PR arm of the company involved.
| [deleted]
| [deleted]
| onion2k wrote:
| It doesn't seem _that_ bad to believe lower level staff should
| have different working environments to higher level staff. I don
| 't believe it's particularly hypocritical of my boss to have more
| flexibility in the way he works than I enjoy.
| Barrin92 wrote:
| Leaders should be in the thick of it. People in leadership
| positions should have less flexibility because they shoulder by
| definition more responsibility. They need to be the first in
| the office and the last one out.
|
| If you have an organisation where privileges increase and
| responsiveness decline as you move up the ladder you have
| invented cronyism. Someone in a top position needs to always be
| reachable, physically. It's the random coders who should be
| able to work remotely, not executives.
|
| Say what you want about Musk's behaviour outside of work but he
| exemplifies this. Guy basically lived on the factory floor for
| months at a time.
| machinehermiter wrote:
| Lead from the back. Do what I say, not what I do.
|
| Just terrible leadership.
| Graffur wrote:
| What's your thought process here? Is it related to the job role
| or you think underlings should just be treated
| differently/worse?
| beaconstudios wrote:
| I mean, that is how it already works in the workplace. More
| senior positions are better compensated, including perks.
|
| I personally think individuals should have the choice to work
| locally or remotely, if it doesn't considerably impact their
| work (ie a job that doesn't require a lot of face to face
| time), but the idea that more senior people get better
| options really doesn't need to be justified as a deviation
| from the norm.
| [deleted]
| the_other wrote:
| It really does.
| the_jeremy wrote:
| I know that as a junior engineer (~ first two years) I needed
| a lot more direction and handholding, and that is much easier
| to get in an office than remotely.
| viraptor wrote:
| This is really cultural / company specific. I spent days on
| screenshare coding with fresh team members. Literally had
| days of that in my schedule. If it matters for the
| company/management it's not harder to do remotely.
| bcrosby95 wrote:
| So, what, you have a playpen of juniors and no one there to
| help them? That makes zero sense. The premise of lower level
| staff needing to be in person is so senior level staff can
| interact with, help, and guide them. If the senior level staff
| isn't there it's pointless.
| s1artibartfast wrote:
| This all depends on where you draw the line for senior and
| job responsibilities. One position is that juniors and
| mentors must come onsite and work in the playpen.
|
| Alternatively, you could expect the juniors to train help
| each other in the playpen with offsite mentoring.
|
| It all comes down to how you think your shop is most
| productive and how learning will occur.
| rodgerd wrote:
| I am put in mind of the policy during the years when HP were
| a successful, growing company, that managers sat in open
| areas, while engineers sat in offices; the managers' work is
| being available to their staff; staff needed to be able to
| focus on their work.
|
| This is just capitalism-is-feudalism bullshit.
| mensetmanusman wrote:
| Good leadership is sacrificial.
| mikeryan wrote:
| Interesting stance. My wife in Senior management, side for one of
| the largest employers in CA (non-tech) they've been very careful
| on allowing for any sort of changes to senior management's remote
| work policies until they have sorted it with the rank-and-file.
|
| While I can see an argument for having to reach a level of
| seniority to achieve the ability to work remotely I'd also argue
| that there's a similar bar that hits at the most Senior levels.
| Taniwha wrote:
| Of course NZ is not open to people just moving here right now -
| in general only citizens, permanent residents and Australians
| from some Aussie states have been allowed in since the beginning
| of Covid. We're not taking tourists or new immigrants at this
| time.
|
| There are some exceptions, not easy to get, a very small number
| of rich people (14) making large investments here are being let
| in, I assume he and his wife are buying there way in.
| roca wrote:
| I have personally met one big-league tech executive who got a
| NZ company to declare him an "essential worker" and migrated
| his family to NZ this year using that. I'm sure there are
| others. I'm not sure if that would work if you're already
| working for that company overseas.
|
| On one hand, it's a bit bogus. Many people wouldn't see his
| role as essential.
|
| On the other hand, it is good for NZ to have this kind of
| person move here.
| imglorp wrote:
| You can't blame NZ for letting in some rich people as a
| risk/reward calculation. Presumably they will buy things and
| pay big taxes: a net benefit?
| Taniwha wrote:
| Might be a net benefit, but as a NZer it goes against the
| local culture for most of us, buying your way to the head of
| the queue seems like corruption to us, it's something that
| was forced on us by a previous right wing government and it's
| sad to see the current one continuing to allow it
| imglorp wrote:
| That's a wonderful cultural aspiration and it makes me want
| to move there even more!
| rsstack wrote:
| A close friend of mine immigrated to NZ in April on a work visa
| with his family. He's not rich at all, just a practicing doctor
| (not research). There seem to be exceptions other than buying
| your way in.
| Taniwha wrote:
| Yes we're taking a small number of people with specifically
| needed skills (like doctors) on a case by case basis -
| "Google Executive" is unlikely to be one of these
| whizzter wrote:
| The article did say that this was planned since before the
| pandemic, so maybe some prior decision still applies?
| Taniwha wrote:
| We've essentially put all previous immigration processing
| on hold since Covid - our mandatory quarantine is currently
| full through November for just citizens returning home
| roca wrote:
| I wonder how many of those MIQ bookings are citizens
| returning home from non-essential overseas trips.
|
| I think we should probably be making those trips a lot
| harder/more expensive and using those MIQ slots for more
| compassionate or business grounds.
| notyourwork wrote:
| Headline sounds like clickbait. The premise is that senior level
| employees get more freedom. It's not really that surprising but I
| can see how that would be frustrating to some.
| foobarbazetc wrote:
| I just want to know how he's getting into NZ since the border is
| closed to non-citizens and people who can't prove existing
| residency.
|
| Asking for a friend, who's me, also trying to move to NZ. :)
| bioinformatics wrote:
| Is your friend a FAANG exec? If not, I am sorry.
| foobarbazetc wrote:
| Even FAANG exec's aren't allowed in, last time I checked. NZ
| doesn't care about that sort of thing. Only if you have $$$
| to put in somewhere.
|
| But maybe things got loosened up a little bit lately, pre-
| Delta, plus we don't know where Urs has citizenship.
| plantain wrote:
| >NZ doesn't care about that sort of thing.
|
| Are we thinking of the same NZ?
|
| https://www.nzherald.co.nz/business/covid-19-coronavirus-
| wea...
|
| https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/national/446151/border-
| exemptions...
| paxys wrote:
| > Only if you have $$$ to put in somewhere.
|
| Which FAANG execs do
| threeseed wrote:
| In most countries the minister responsible for border control
| will have wide discretion about who is allowed in and out.
|
| This means that if you're politically well connected it can be
| trivial to get the necessary approvals. But for everyone else
| it will be extremely difficult, especially for countries like
| Australia and NZ which have very low vaccination rates.
| Taniwha wrote:
| Here in NZ that would be considered corruption - likely
| resulting scandal if discovered.
|
| We do have an out for very rich people who want to invest
| here (Peter Thiel abused this to get NZ citizenship from our
| previous right wing govt, there has been a lot of shouting
| about this)
| LAC-Tech wrote:
| NZer here. Why would you want to move here? Everything is
| expensive, the houses are made of cardboard, and local
| opportunities are extremely limited.
| TheAlchemist wrote:
| When you say opportunities are extremely limited - is it in
| general or in IT specifically ?
|
| I'm planning to move to NZ soon and would love to hear more
| about the IT market.
| zinckiwi wrote:
| The IT market is essentially non-existent outside the main
| centres (Auckland, Wellington, Christchurch), and of those
| only Christchurch approaches affordable (mostly as a
| consequence of its recent shakiness).
| breck wrote:
| I haven't been there in a decade, but back in ~2010 I
| remember it being slightly cheaper than American, and
| noticeably cheaper than Australia. Have things changed?
| EdwardDiego wrote:
| Housing prices don't ever stop here, a lack of CGT and
| aggressively lending banks means a very unhealthy amount
| of capital ends up in residential real-estate.
|
| My wife and I bought a 1950s, 5 bedroom house 30 minutes
| north of Christchurch for $520K in 2018. Estimated market
| price is now $640K. Not bad capital gains in two years...
| ...not that we're selling until some kids move out of
| home.
|
| Prices have also been pushed up by expats with
| considerable purchasing power fleeing Covid, and supply
| that is very far behind demand.
|
| There was something like 1 million Kiwis living overseas
| before Covid, which is 20% of the population here.
| [deleted]
| zinckiwi wrote:
| Half-agree. I'm a returned expat of a couple of years ago,
| and we came back primarily for the kids. It's expensive and
| the consumer choice is going to be a shock for most
| Americans, that's true. And I wouldn't have done it if I
| couldn't work remotely for a US company. But with that as an
| option, all the moreso now, it's still a good place to raise
| a family if you can finance it.
| smw wrote:
| I really wish it were easy to do this as a non-citizen.
| fragmede wrote:
| Easy: There's no capital gains tax. If a large portion of
| your wealth consists of stock options (which I'd assume Urs'
| is, given that he was employee #8 at Google), it means more
| money for you, while living in a beautiful place. Expensive
| doesn't matter, nor does construction materials used in (poor
| people's non-custom-built) housing, and definitely not the
| local job market.
|
| NZ also has universal healthcare. For anybody tired of the US
| healthcare "system" (what we have doesn't deserve to be
| called a system), that's very attractive even if you're not
| wealthy. Especially not if you're wealthy.
| Apocryphon wrote:
| Better the Shire than Gondor.
| RantyDave wrote:
| If you have near-infinite money this is a great place to
| live.
| roca wrote:
| NZer here. Everything is expensive, there are some good
| houses, and local opportunities don't matter if you have your
| own business or work remotely for a US company (I've done
| both). With the right remote job you get paid enough to not
| worry about the expense. And NZ rocks: sane politics, great
| environment. And if you live in Auckland: great weather,
| diverse, great food.
| wasmitnetzen wrote:
| There are exceptions for the rich and famous, of course. [1]
|
| [1]: https://www.reuters.com/article/us-health-coronavirus-
| newzea...
| drewg123 wrote:
| I worked in this guy's org as an L5 & L6. Opposition to remote
| work is the primary reason I left Google in 2015.
|
| Its also one of the reasons we lost out on a number of good
| internal transfers. We had one amazing guy. World famous,
| luminary in his field, who lived in Livermore who had a deal to
| WFH 2-3 days a week who turned down a job in our org because he
| would have lost that deal & would have had to commute from
| Livermore every day.
|
| EDIT: To be clear, the opposition to remote work that impacted me
| came from the VP immediately above me. It is certainly possible
| that other forks on the org chart under different VPs were
| different. I never specifically talked to this person and got his
| views on remote work.
| delroth wrote:
| I still work at Google and I've also heard all of these
| stories. I have heard of multiple people transferring to other
| parts of the company or quitting because getting any kind of
| remote work arrangement while working under Urs was near
| impossible.
| vl wrote:
| Urs is an engineer who imagines that he can run business and
| manage people, neither of which is actually true.
| justicezyx wrote:
| Urs is kind of quite assured of himself about a lot of
| technical decisions. Probably because he blueprinted TI, and
| contributed directly to some of the key decisions (warehouse-
| scale computer, as one example, although I am not sure if he
| or Luiz is more principal). He largely no longer made any
| good decision since the google plus era?
|
| I read somewhere it states that Urs was behind the push of
| google plus.
|
| Urs missed Cloud. Half-heartedly built GAE, which is
| technically superior, but mediocrely implemented.
|
| Urs decided to defund internal development, in order to boost
| Cloud, after realizing google was years behind. That was a
| laughable technical decision.
|
| Personally, Urs shows some form personal distaste towards a
| few old bug working systems, and tried to make them disappear
| by cutting of their resources. borgcfg was one of them.
| Another evidence of Urs losing touch of the technical
| reality. borgcfg code is the right behind C++, Java, the 3rd
| most human written code in Google. Make it disappear by
| cutting of resources is essentially make almost everyone
| suffering... (I am behind the effort to revitalize borgcfg,
| and experienced the ridiculousness behind this view).
| [deleted]
| bellyfullofbac wrote:
| Irrelevant detail: if he lives in NZ and works on California
| time, California's 9AM happens at 4AM his time, and California's
| 5PM is his 12 noon. At least with the current clock with daylight
| savings.
|
| Seems like a sweet gig, wake up early, finish by lunch time.
| breck wrote:
| I wonder if NZ being a day ahead would be a drag. Certainly I
| think a 5 hour time zone swing is doable. Annoying, but doable.
| I did a stint with a 11 hour time zone difference. Wouldn't
| want to do that again.
| roca wrote:
| The day-ahead thing is fine. I work half-day on Saturday and
| Monday is nice and quiet.
| Taniwha wrote:
| I work roughly those hours (from NZ) - the time difference is
| 3-5 hours depending on time of year
|
| Of course you've forgotten that dateline - Monday here is
| Sunday in the US
| [deleted]
| devoutsalsa wrote:
| I worked from Dubai last year for about a month. My company
| is on GMT-5/GMT-4, and Dubai is GMT+4. Their weekend is
| Friday/Saturday. So working remotely, I was working on nights
| before both days off. It wasn't a great schedule (but I
| didn't care because COVID made everything boring).
| CameronNemo wrote:
| I wouldn't want to wake up before dawn.
| Taniwha wrote:
| I solve this by taking an afternoon nap - that lets me live
| reasonably comfortably in two timezones
| qbasic_forever wrote:
| As a senior executive the wall time really doesn't matter to
| his output or work. He is expected and very likely making
| decisions and working/replying to issues all hours he is awake.
| He isn't being measured on something like 'amount of code
| committed', he's being measured by how effective his entire
| organization is performing. People in his org are relying on
| him to be the arbiter and decision maker that unblock and move
| forward the organization.
| asadlionpk wrote:
| Just to point out, Urs Holzle was the employee no. 8 at Google.
|
| Why are the lowly minions so pissed, he can work from wherever he
| wants, or not!
| drewda wrote:
| This was originally reported by CNET (with additional context),
| so let me encourage folks to give them your clicks instead:
| https://www.cnet.com/news/googles-hypocritical-remote-work-p...
| devoutsalsa wrote:
| Conspiracy theory... the real reason companies want you working
| on site is because they know you know they'll notice if you take
| off too much time to interview other places.
| paxys wrote:
| People don't take time off for interviews, they fall sick or
| have mysterious appointments. And employers in that position
| don't really care, because it's better to let the employee
| leave voluntarily than to fire them and have to go through the
| entire HR process and pay unemployment.
| verall wrote:
| Yes, and employees that are actively trying to leave
| (different than passively interviewing for drive-by
| opportunities) are probably putting in minimum input, maybe
| less. It's like 3-6mo to fire a software engineer, and its a
| ton of work. If they don't like it here, let them leave.
| ydnaclementine wrote:
| Remote for me but not for thee
| machinehermiter wrote:
| I just don't think smart companies can afford to force the
| employees back to the office right now.
|
| It does feel like some kind of worker revolt. Literally everyone
| I know wants to quit or do something else. Not like we are
| talking independent variables here either. If you are already
| thinking about quitting and your co-worker quits obviously the
| chance you quit goes way up since your job probably just got way
| shittier.
|
| I say this as someone who just went back to the office 2 days ago
| and I love it. Happiness to me is not sitting at home all day
| with as little interaction as possible.
|
| I think companies are just going to have to play ball with this
| in the near term as I don't know how they can afford not to.
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