[HN Gopher] Complex game worlds, simple text interfaces (2015)
___________________________________________________________________
Complex game worlds, simple text interfaces (2015)
Author : davegauer
Score : 122 points
Date : 2021-07-07 13:27 UTC (9 hours ago)
(HTM) web link (egamebook.com)
(TXT) w3m dump (egamebook.com)
| nahuel0x wrote:
| just try AI Dungeon
| filiph wrote:
| Author of the game here. I don't mention it in the article or
| the video, but AI Dungeon is exactly what I _didn 't_ set out
| to do. GPT-2/3-based games are cool, but they have no ground
| truth.
| Multicomp wrote:
| I'd love to know the 'design patterns' of works like this Knights
| of San Francisco game. Did the author use a workflow engine, a
| rules engine, functional event sourcing, a nested pyramid of if-
| then-else doom?
|
| I have a sense that this space is somewhat unexplored. Text-based
| game world simulation is a relatively underdocumented (to my
| eyes) form of the 'game UI overtop a database manipulated with
| game logic rules' type of games, of which Simulation games are at
| the complex end of.
|
| There are things like Twine and Inky that offer variables and
| conditionals to prewritten bodies of text, but doing composable
| texts worlds that change their state based on the accumulated
| choices of players over the course of their time seems to be a
| complex feature to build and extend, whether in Twine or another
| tool. Dialog simulation systems that remember what options you've
| done and give you additional options or changes over the course
| of the game are sold as products online. Heck, someone recently
| patented a 'grudge' system that a popular game (League of
| Legends?) used.
|
| Or maybe I've just been looking too closely at it. I've been
| working slowly for about the past 2 years on an automation system
| for a tabletop RPG (non D-20 system) to speed up battle
| generation & resolution, trying to incorporate all of the various
| rules that say 'in X scenario, if Y conditions are met, gather
| this information from the user, then apply its Z effect like so,
| but also let the DM / user change any of the above or ignore the
| entire thing before you do so', so while I've ordered Designing
| Data Intensive Applications in hopes of gaining more insights,
| this problem certainly seems like a big thing to chew on from my
| self-taught programmer's POV right now.
| filiph wrote:
| Author here.
|
| The game has several levels (explored more in my 2017 "fractal
| stories article"[1]) - from top to bottom it can be something
| like
|
| > you're in a room > you're talking to this person > you're in
| this branch of the conversation
|
| OR
|
| > you're in another location > you're in a fight with these two
| monsters > monster A is swinging at you with an axe > you've
| deflected that swing and have an opportunity to counter-attack
|
| It's basically a stack of situations.
|
| To answer your question, the design patterns differ according
| to the situation. The roaming between the locations is
| relatively simple node-navigation (except we need to track from
| which node we come to each location, for example, and we can
| skip through visited nodes that haven't changed). The dialogue
| can be something very similar to ink [2]. The combat is similar
| to roguelikes, where it's turnbased, but as a player, you only
| "see" your own moves, and the other moves happen in between. I
| do track of time on the level of milliseconds, and I have moves
| that take more or less time, also depending on who makes them
| (an agile goblin readies a sword much quicker than an old man
| stands up from the ground).
|
| I like your idea of a TRPG helper. I was thinking of something
| similar. Like, have an app for combat only, where you set up
| the combatants, and then let the DM simulate effects of
| different actions done to those combatants. As you say, in
| TTRPG it's important for the DM to be able to bypass the
| system, make an exception, etc. But I'd say that 80% of the
| time, the DM can just report the effect back to the players.
| And it takes them much less time and mental effort. (Especially
| if we're talking about one of the more simulationist TRPGs like
| Blade of the Iron Throne [3].)
|
| [1]: https://filiph.medium.com/skyrim-rendered-in-
| text-1899548ab2...
|
| [2]: https://www.inklestudios.com/ink/
|
| [3]: http://ironthronepub.com/
|
| (Edit: format)
| Quequau wrote:
| This seems like something that might dovetail rather neatly with
| some of the work that Richard Evans has done. "Little Text
| People" for example.
| anthk wrote:
| Nethack/Slashem is complex (and most roguelikes too) and text
| based.
| AnIdiotOnTheNet wrote:
| Calling Nethack text based is a little disingenuous. It uses
| text characters as tile-based graphics, which is a different
| thing.
| anthk wrote:
| Both. You get the game messages by text. Call it TUI based.
|
| Ok, well. We'll define text something being able to be
| printed on a teletype.
|
| Modern Z Machine games have complex-ish worlds, but
| roguelikes' objects have a far more emergent gameplay.
|
| Then, MUDs. A lot of them have pretty complex worlds
| simulations.
| justusthane wrote:
| He mentions that specifically in his "explainer" video (and
| uses Rogue itself as an example:
| https://youtu.be/CDDYeJznOhY?t=223
| EvanKelly wrote:
| Perhaps it was just the time in my life that I played it, but the
| most immersive experience I had playing a game was a text based
| MUD called Achaea. I've tried to recapture that experience
| unsuccessfully.
|
| The lack of focus on graphics meant that complexity of
| description and systems didn't need to have visual work to go
| along with it, which allowed for much more complex systems than
| I'd seen in any game at the time.
| haolez wrote:
| I have the same book regarding fiction books vs series or
| movies. The books have a lot more depth and are more creative
| in my experience.
| akudha wrote:
| I feel the same. I think with movies, we don't have put in
| any effort at all. We just sit there and watch. With books,
| it is a lot more effort - not just reading, but imagining
| while reading.
|
| Maybe that extra effort makes it more enjoyable and valuable?
| zem wrote:
| i've been thinking a lot lately about how i could design a civ-
| like game with a core mechanic more like hamurabi
| [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hamurabi_(video_game)]. the output
| needn't be purely textual (e.g. the game could display a map, or
| graphics of various entities), but the input would just involve
| making decisions about various variables, and the simulation
| engine would take care of the rest and show you the outcome.
| EvanKelly wrote:
| Maybe not quite what you're talking about, but
| https://www.nationstates.net/ is almost like Model UN the game.
| Played a bit with friends back in the day, but missing some of
| the mechanics of Civ
| filiph wrote:
| You might enjoy King of Dragon Pass and newer games from that
| same developer (https://sixages.com/).
| filiph wrote:
| Oh, and Warsim: The Realm of Aslona.
| zem wrote:
| warsim looks beautiful too. interesting combination of
| kingdom management and an actual player character.
| zem wrote:
| thanks, that looks excellent!
| LanternLight83 wrote:
| I really love the ideas expressed here and on the home page,
| especially (ie., just personally, a side-note if context) as text
| adventure games have been a focal point between my non-gameing SO
| and I in an ongoing debate on where to draw the line on what
| counts as a "game". Anyone got with experience with the "Knights
| of San Francisco"?
|
| https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=egamebook.com....
| tpudlik wrote:
| I bought and played it after reading this piece. It's a small
| but enjoyable game; if you're at all intrigued, I'd encourage
| checking it out!
| timvdalen wrote:
| I bought it a few weeks ago after I got a newsletter about it
| (I guess I signed up after playing that first demo), but I
| haven't had time to play it yet.
|
| The main menu art and music is cool, though.
| pugworthy wrote:
| A good system for describing a game could also be used to help
| create narration of movies for visually impaired people. Or even
| descriptions of audio for those with hearing loss.
| filiph wrote:
| Hi, I'm the author. One of the coolest things I learned after
| releasing the game was that it's played by folks with visual
| impairment. It's "playable with issues" (meaning I have work to
| do), but playable nonetheless.
| pugworthy wrote:
| Hey very cool! Glad you've had a chance to try that.
|
| If you've never done it, find a TV and movie or show that has
| audio descriptions of visuals for visually impaired
| audiences. It's kind of an interesting experience to hear a
| voice over describing the scene.
|
| One of my favorites was the description of the opening
| Paramount logo animation. Something like, "Stars flying from
| a dark sky skim across the surface of a calm lake towards a
| distant mountain, then circle the mountain as the name
| 'Paramount' appears"
| hikarudo wrote:
| Off topic: shows with audio descriptions are also great for
| learning foreign languages. You basically get a voice
| narrating what is happening on screen. "Oh, so that's how
| you say 'crouching' in Japanese!"
___________________________________________________________________
(page generated 2021-07-07 23:01 UTC)