[HN Gopher] OSSU: Path to a free, self-taught education in compu...
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OSSU: Path to a free, self-taught education in computer science
Author : axiomdata316
Score : 284 points
Date : 2021-07-06 04:35 UTC (18 hours ago)
(HTM) web link (github.com)
(TXT) w3m dump (github.com)
| lanecwagner wrote:
| OSSU does a great job. I recently started building a CS
| curriculum with a focus on giving students a single interactive
| place to get all the material. You can check it out here if
| interested: https://GitHub.com/Qvault/curriculum
| [deleted]
| heenrik wrote:
| As someone who teaches Human-Computer Interaction in a CS
| program, I find it odd that there are no HCI topics on that list.
| Especially, when they say it's a "complete education in computer
| science". Perhaps it's a matter of tradition etc., but some basic
| knowledge about HCI might be useful ;)
|
| I'm not surprised, but still, Bush, Licklider, Engelbart, Weiser,
| Kay, Victor etc. are all about HCI...
| manquer wrote:
| This is minimum curriculum that you need to have knowledge of.
| It is not full replica of undergrad course. Also CS not IT.
|
| I am not sure learning HCI helps with computer science itself
| most of which is really applied math.
| [deleted]
| j45 wrote:
| HCI remains one of my favourite CS topics.
|
| Understanding the user beyond tactics of engagement and viral
| loops is a valuable skill.
|
| With the sharding of software developers into frontend and
| backend developers, perhaps the HCI through the software layers
| is falling thru the cracks.
| dang wrote:
| Past related threads:
|
| _OSSU: A path to a free self-taught education in computer
| science_ - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21062799 - Sept
| 2019 (172 comments)
|
| _Path to a free self-taught education in Computer Science_ -
| https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16035839 - Dec 2017 (66
| comments)
| exdsq wrote:
| This is a nice way to learn CS in your own time. Sure there's no
| piece of paper at the end but it should help improve your skills
| & remove any sort of impostor syndrome junior self-taught devs
| might have.
|
| Some of these comments remind me of an argument in "The Case
| Against Education" by Bryan Caplan that degrees are more about
| signalling than anything else nowadays.
|
| If you have two candidates applying for a job. One audited MIT
| classes for four years completing all problem sets but not
| receiving any credits. The other cheated and dragged their way to
| a low-GPA degree but has the qualification. Who would be more
| likely to get a job offer?
| switchb4 wrote:
| All this is needed for becoming a better what?
| habibur wrote:
| Balancing binary tree.
| switchb4 wrote:
| You couldn't say computer scientist
| alexeldeib wrote:
| Answered further down, but this take seems very pessimistic. So
| what if this doesn't result in a computer science degree? It
| absolutely will result in a deeper understanding of the theory
| of computer science, its practical uses in software
| development, and a hardware level understanding of how
| computation works in practice.
|
| That's nothing to sneer at.
| switchb4 wrote:
| But you can't use this knowledge to build something
| significant that community calls you a computer scientist.
| alexeldeib wrote:
| Why does that matter? Think of this from the perspective of
| a bootcamp grad working in tech, for example. That person
| might want to complement their practical skills with
| theoretical knowledge and deeper understanding. That
| understanding can help them hone their skills and develop
| professionally as an engineer.
|
| There are lots of people for whom this content is very
| valuable. Many of those people don't necessarily care about
| being able to use the title "computer scientist" is totally
| irrelevant. I have a degree in computer science but I don't
| call myself a computer scientist.
|
| I don't see the reason to disparage the content because it
| doesn't come with the title. Maybe I'm missing something
| you can share?
| switchb4 wrote:
| What is in CS that makes it a field that can be self
| taught? Can you become a self taught physicist? I think
| you can't. Then what is the difference between studies in
| CS and physics?
| psyc wrote:
| I think self-teaching is much more about the student than
| the subject. As for CS (but really, programming) the
| investment for equipment and learning materials is
| comparatively next to nothing.
| nicoburns wrote:
| Lack of specialist equipment required. You can absolutely
| become a self-taught physicist, although IMO physics much
| more difficult than CS.
| neatze wrote:
| I think you need to google; "self taught scientists",
| unfortunately, in my limited perspective, somehow
| credibility become equalized with degree (e.i. title and
| money) and not the actual knowledge/skills in many
| fields, in today's world it is socially unacceptable not
| to have degree, the value of actual skills/knowledge is
| not as important as to have PhD title, I really hope it
| will change in future.
| jhgb wrote:
| > Then what is the difference between studies in CS and
| physics?
|
| The former needs paper and pencil. The latter requires
| expensive equipment to prove your theories. At best you
| can learn theoretical physics by yourself and formulate
| some hypotheses. Proving them might often be a completely
| different matter.
| fbcpck wrote:
| This comes back to your (or my) definition of science. To
| me it's just about furthering knowledge through provable
| explanations.
|
| Is it more efficient if you collaborate with other people
| with the same goal (e.g. Academia)? Yes.
|
| Is it a necessity to conduct science? Absolutely not; how
| do you think it was done in the past? Almost all of the
| early scientists were self-taught individuals.
| alexeldeib wrote:
| What makes it a field that can't be self-taught? What
| defines the same for any field?
|
| To take the best reading I can of what your point is:
| you're saying a pupil will not self-study this course and
| go into CS academia. I agree with you there.
|
| To me, that seems a poor reason to criticize this course,
| the content, or people who want to pursue it. There are
| many reasons to learn undergraduate CS material besides
| pursuing academia (again, self as an easy example: CS ->
| SWE). I don't feel there was anything in my degree which
| could not have been self-studied with enough tenacity.
|
| If it's about joining academia, I get your point.
| Otherwise, really unsure why you're fixated on the title.
| Anyone can absolutely self study physics the same as
| computer science, and use that knowledge to advance their
| understanding in other fields, or hobbies, or just pursue
| knowledge for the satisfaction. Those all seem worthwhile
| to me :)
| hestefisk wrote:
| I personally find the algebra and infinitesimal calculus quite
| useful for general problem solving skills. Sure it doesn't
| provide you with concrete skills in the latest JS framework but
| it does help in terms of ability to reason about abstract
| problems and generalisations. Each to their own but I find it
| quite useful (I used to be a dev but now work in strategy
| consulting and here I cherish my math skills every day).
| sdevonoes wrote:
| Don't get it (was it a joke?) Answering your question: To
| become a better computer scientist.
| switchb4 wrote:
| You can't call yourself a computer scientist by doing self
| taught education. That's the biggest problem with it
| wildgeodude wrote:
| Why not?!
| strangeattractr wrote:
| Most people that do computer science degrees don't call
| themselves computer scientists afterward. In fact, the only
| people I've ever known that call themselves that title are
| those in academia.
| alexeldeib wrote:
| You can't say you have a degree in computer science, but
| you can certainly learn and practice the theory and
| concepts just as well as anyone else. And to that end: I
| see lots of good material!
| larodi wrote:
| at the end of all this self-thought modern approach to
| education i see only one thing - alienation.
| alexeldeib wrote:
| Alienation from? The academic community? I question
| whether those are the folks this content targets.
| switchb4 wrote:
| Yes alienation from the academic community
| foolinaround wrote:
| that does not seem to be the primary intention of the
| creators.
|
| Even if it is a side-effect, who cares?
| detaro wrote:
| Who cares? The academic community is often alienating
| everybody who is not in academia, degree or not. And
| where it isn't, it doesn't care if you have a degree or
| not.
| throwawayobvs wrote:
| The hard truth is that there isn't much "science" in most
| computer "science" jobs. The world needs brick layers
| too. Nothing wrong with that as such, but confusing
| computer scientists with programming workers is one of
| the root causes for the software mess these days.
| FranzFerdiNaN wrote:
| I have multiple degrees in history yet I'm completely
| detached from the academic community because I don't do
| research and don't publish anything. So if I follow your
| logic it means I (and many thousands like me) have no
| degree at all?
| switchb4 wrote:
| Exactly.
| larodi wrote:
| very much true.
|
| better computer scientist needs interaction with other
| people, needs to learn to respect their views or at least
| understand them, evaluate. perhaps needs to meet other
| scientists. to exchange ideas and approaches. this is what
| schools and academia is for.
|
| this whole self-taught thing is a time-bomb. we already
| have too many self-taught engineers, architects and what-
| nots who can only work with themselves, listen to
| themselves, and agree to their own designs. not okay.
|
| being good at anything more often than not means also being
| good in working with people.
|
| even though you can also call yourself better piper or
| better kiter, doesn't mean you actually are better at
| anything just like this.
| wildgeodude wrote:
| some _interesting_ sweeping generalisations there...
| cinntaile wrote:
| This is a red herring. This is for improving your
| technical competency, not for improving your social
| skills. It doesn't mean social skills are unimportant, it
| just means that this doesn't focus on that part of the
| equation. Do you have any issues with the technical
| material they suggest you focus on?
| TheGigaChad wrote:
| Suck dick.
| cyrksoft wrote:
| Why not?
| switchb4 wrote:
| Because you don't stand on the shoulders of giants?
| detaro wrote:
| What's that supposed to mean? Learning from the giants
| only counts if it happened while "supervised" by some
| random lecturer?
| [deleted]
| peferron wrote:
| Is it a protected title where you live?
| justshowpost wrote:
| I'm curios if OSSU's self-taught is more self-taught than typical
| CS course from other Coursera partner universities. I took
| several courses there (mainly from Duke) and I would not call it
| self-taught because instructor's role in the process was quite
| gross.
| aero-glide2 wrote:
| How does OSSU compare to https://teachyourselfcs.com/ ? I just
| started the latter.
| KarimDaghari wrote:
| I've tried both (but have not completed them): In contrast to
| OSSU, TYSCS focuses purely on the _fundamentals_.
| jason0597 wrote:
| Why can't this exist for traditional engineering? Chemical,
| Civil, Mechanical, Electrical, etc.
| kyawzazaw wrote:
| Materials
| [deleted]
| bruce343434 wrote:
| Do you actually get a degree at the end? Or is it a lot of work
| that you put in which will be ignored by recruiters that "just
| get too many applications" and filter by college education?
| mike00632 wrote:
| If you already have a degree but it's not CS (perhaps it's
| mathematics or electrical engineering), then these courses are
| perfect. I credit a lot of my programming skills to Stanford's
| courses even though that is not where my degrees are from.
| lennoff wrote:
| Is a CS degree important nowadays? I do have one, but literally
| _no one_ mentioned or asked about my education during an
| interview, ever.
| resonious wrote:
| I think it's less about the actual interview and more about
| the initial opportunity. Some recruiters definitely still
| filter on degree. And similarly, some companies have special
| pipelines for big schools they like.
|
| Once you're in the interview, it's more about real experience
| and knowledge. I think nobody cares whether you got your
| experience from school or from somewhere else.
| switchb4 wrote:
| No one asked you because you already have a degree in CS. But
| for a non CS graduate things are different I guess
| pageandrew wrote:
| I didn't go to college, have no "Education" section on my
| resume. Senior-level SDE, 8 years of experience.
|
| I've been asked about my education in initial recruiter
| screens maybe 10% of the time, and its come up later down
| the line in interviews maybe 20% of the time. I've never
| had it clearly and obviously preclude me from moving
| forward (as in obviously dropped from consideration after
| that conversation).
|
| I've found most people who ask to be curious, but keen to
| move on and talk about my experience. It might be different
| at the entry level.
| psyc wrote:
| I didn't go to college, and I don't include an education
| section on my resume. In 23 years in the industry, I've
| never been asked.
| switchb4 wrote:
| Well you are an inspiration for others. Can you share
| some useful knowledge so others can benefit from your
| experiences?
| psyc wrote:
| I can summarize my path. Ages 12-20, wrote code every
| day. Took a QA job at a small software company. Moved to
| development team. Spent 6 years there. Used that
| experience to get into Microsoft. 5 years there. At that
| point, there were almost no companies that wouldn't
| interview me, and it was just on me to do well in the
| interviews. I have practiced white boarding all through
| my career.
|
| So the idea is to get your foot in whatever door you can
| at that time, and climb when you can.
| switchb4 wrote:
| Thanks for your input. Highly appreciate
| nivenkos wrote:
| With 23 years in industry, you were joining back when CS
| degrees were less common.
|
| This is like the "boomer handshake" meme. Nowadays you
| need a degree.
| iser wrote:
| do you think it's possible to work at companies like
| amazon and google without a degree at all?
| richardwhiuk wrote:
| Sure, Amazon has jobs in it's warehouses :p
| imwillofficial wrote:
| I do
| AussieWog93 wrote:
| I used to work with a guy who dropped out of a gamedev
| course at a second-tier university. Graduate SWE at a
| respectable/selective company and all.
|
| Admittedly, this was at a company with about 500
| employees and 1 part-time HR person (who quit 6 months
| later and wasn't replaced).
| newswasboring wrote:
| 1. They didn't ask in the interview because you are not going
| to say something surprising about your degree. They already
| know you have it and have made their inferences from it.
| There is no need for further discussions
|
| 2. The problem isn't the interview, people can show their
| knowledge in an interview. Problem is getting the interview.
| vletal wrote:
| Interviewing people without formal education to SWe/MLe roles
| has always been a disaster for me.
| gbuk2013 wrote:
| In the (UK) developer job ads there is usually something
| along the lines of "a degree in computer science or relevant
| experience". Based on my experience I am guessing that this
| only matters for the purposes of getting through the
| recruiter / HR gatekeeper filter - once your actual tech
| chops are being considered no one cares, in fact not having a
| CS degree may well be to your advantage (CS does not teach
| you how to become a good software engineer, nor does it teach
| you the soft skills).
|
| That said, without the CS education (formal or otherwise)
| some fields of work will be inaccessible but I think these
| are in the minority.
| momento wrote:
| I have been asked for a copy of my transcripts before - but
| only as part of a background check.
| dancemethis wrote:
| Hopefully they make a Matrix space soon so people can talk safely
| and make a community.
| claymorepsy wrote:
| I love this. I used back in 2015 and did many courses but didn't
| finish.
| evnix wrote:
| can we make something similar for medical studies. I know it is a
| walled garden at the moment.
| asicsp wrote:
| Similar/related guides:
|
| * https://teachyourselfcs.com/
|
| * https://matt.might.net/articles/what-cs-majors-should-know/
|
| * https://github.com/ossu/data-science
| lrvick wrote:
| Was disappointed to see that an open source education project
| requires one to accept the terms of service of a proprietary,
| centralized, and privacy adverse service like Discord to be able
| to communicate with others.
|
| This makes it hard to recommend to others.
|
| I don't understand this trend.
| jraph wrote:
| > I don't understand this trend
|
| Network effect. I don't like it neither. Many open source
| projects adopt Discord now, making it harder to be part of
| their community if you want to avoid non-free software / closed
| networks. (What next? Open source projects hosted on a non-free
| social network? /s)
|
| From the outside, this is an impressive phenomenon, where in a
| very short time you notice everybody suddenly going to Discord
| and you don't understand what's happening / what's the deal.
|
| But since nobody cares, it's not a problem.
| actually_a_dog wrote:
| In what way is Discord particularly privacy averse?
| zeepzeep wrote:
| There's a feature that they scan your messages for abusive
| content, so it's surely not encrypted as they can read every
| private message
| imwillofficial wrote:
| "Do the advertise encryption?"
|
| Do they need to? The point wasn't "they falsely advertise
| encryption" The point was "they do not respect privacy"
|
| Their advertising is irrelevant.
| actually_a_dog wrote:
| No, that was not, in fact, the question I asked. I asked
| whether they were " _particularly_ privacy averse. " And,
| to me, it seems like they are not any more privacy averse
| than any other messaging service, given that they don't
| claim to offer any more privacy than any other service.
|
| In fact, the only real difference I see between Discord
| and an IRC server is that Discord forces you to create an
| account and associates your messages with it. But, so
| does Github, and nobody complains about needing a Github
| account to contribute to FOSS projects.
| imwillofficial wrote:
| "it seems like they are not any more privacy averse than
| any other messaging service, given that they don't claim
| to offer any more privacy than any other service." Pro
| tip, using sweeping words like "any" will almost always
| make you wrong.
|
| Nearly every popular messaging service these days offers
| end-to-end encryption. I have no idea what you're talking
| about when you say they "are not any more privacy averse
| than any other messaging service"
|
| When you're worse off, privacy-wise than a Facebook owned
| messenger, you're not doing too hot.
|
| I found a good write up of popular and e2e messengers for
| you to check out. https://getstream.io/blog/most-secure-
| messaging-apps/
| imwillofficial wrote:
| "and nobody complains about needing a Github account to
| contribute to FOSS projects." Did you really just say
| that on hacker news? I literally read somebody
| complaining about that THIS MORNING.
| actually_a_dog wrote:
| Do they advertise encryption?
| mssundaram wrote:
| If you have the opportunity to go to university, my personally
| small and insignificant advice - do it. If you're already
| established in the industry but haven't studied these things - do
| it.
| the_only_law wrote:
| > If you have the opportunity to go to university, my
| personally small and insignificant advice - do it.
|
| I've attempted to look into it a few times, but it seems pretty
| clear they don't want me. From the prohibitive costs, to the
| riding, bureaucratic admission where my high school
| disciplinary record is more important than my resume and where
| I'm a "dependent" despite what my tax returns have said for the
| last several years, it's clear that universities are mostly
| interested in gullible HS seniors who's parents can co-sign for
| insane loans. In the US at least.
| mike00632 wrote:
| Perhaps go to a state school or school with easier
| admissions. If you're really diligent then you can graduate
| at top of your class and make a good impression on your
| professors who are well connected in the industry. You would
| very likely have great prospects taking this route.
| CleverLikeAnOx wrote:
| A lot of comments are dismissing this because it doesn't provide
| a credential upon completion. But you don't get mad at a hammer
| for not putting staples in paper, nor get mad at a stapler for
| not putting nails in wood. This is a tool that gives empowers you
| to educate yourself, not a tool that gives you a credential.
|
| As someone with a deep love of learning and knowledge, I am
| delighted that this exists.
| j45 wrote:
| Self directed learning is an invaluable skill for anyone,
| credential or not.
| ganafagol wrote:
| While that's true, most of the valuable employees have 1 top
| skill: communication. That's neither trained nor witnessed by
| having gone through 2 years of I-did-this-alone-at-home.
| foolinaround wrote:
| Does the 4 year education in college improve that skill
| better?
|
| Most likely, the self-taught person is also doing some
| other job, etc as well. So, he is managing a tougher-than-
| normal schedule, and communication/planning comes into play
| for sure.
| j45 wrote:
| Learning how to learn is more of a master skill, under
| which learning tech or communication falls.
|
| Communication is critical but can lead to non-tech people
| talking about tech, too. Need both.
|
| Theres nothing about self-directed learning that says one
| couldn't do it on the job, or doing other things. Work
| integrated learning one example.
|
| Conversely, suffering group work in post secondary doesn't
| always guarantee excellent communication skills. It's
| another way (for the few) to learn to work with people who
| might not be able to work with each other. There is lots of
| self directed learning needed in post secondary too, only
| they call it learning how to think.
|
| This program in question appears to be part time.. which
| leaves time to not be alone at home and instead be
| scrolling the world through a little window.
| LightMachine wrote:
| Speaking of the subject, if someone DOES want a credential and
| already knows a lot of CS, are there good online courses that
| provide sped up process? I have been programming since 20 years
| ago, am a lead developer at a large company, but have no
| degree. Sadly some companies like Google do require it to even
| consider submissions, so I wonder if I should enroll an online
| course just for the paper.
| manquer wrote:
| Some companies/teams will not recognize online courses, some
| will only consider from "good" universities, so worth
| checking before you enroll.
|
| However in my experience such organizations are really a
| waste of time if they insist on a degree for people with a
| lot of experience, every internal promotion will have similar
| and sometimes unreachable barriers.
| rufus_foreman wrote:
| You're a lead developer at a large company, are there any
| universities near this large company with CS degrees?
|
| People are going to consider "online course just for the
| paper" to be somewhat of a scam.
|
| So, just for the paper, no.
| ilyu wrote:
| In France, there's a system called VAE (acquired experience
| validation) which is a mean to convert experience to a
| credential. It requires to prepare a complete file with an
| university. The VAE acknowledge an equivalence with an
| university degree
| hpoe wrote:
| Check out Western Governors University. It is an accredited
| online university formed back in the 90's and I believe is
| non profit as well so it isn't like the University of Phoenix
| or those other scam schools.
|
| They have a competency based model where if you can
| demonstrate competency by passing the test and/or completing
| the project you can be done with the class, whether that
| takes you 3 days or 3 months.
|
| You also play a flat rate for the semester and complete as
| many classes as you want at a time.
|
| I did it I loved it, I'd been in the field and was able to
| breeze through some of my courses while the ones I wasn't
| familiar with helped me.
|
| They also have a lot of classes that the test is an industry
| cert, so it's a cheap way to get some certs under your belt
| as well.
| AnimalMuppet wrote:
| > You also play a flat rate for the semester and complete
| as many classes as you want at a time.
|
| Oooh, I did not know that. So you could figure out what
| classes you want, study for them on your own, then pay for
| one semester and pass all the tests? If you've got the
| discipline to study with no feedback for a year or two,
| that could be a _really_ inexpensive way to get a degree...
| hpoe wrote:
| It is a really inexpensive way to get a good degree. The
| one caveat is that they already have determined the
| classes and the courses you just choose what order you go
| through them in. For example I am currently getting my
| masters, and someone has posted how they managed to knock
| out the entire degree (8 semesters) in 2 months. (The
| disclaimer was he had worked in the field for close to 10
| years in various positions, so everything in the degree
| was second nature)
|
| I got my degree in 18 months, plus one semester of a
| local college prior. But yes if you've got the discipline
| and motivation you can get your entire degree in 6 months
| for about 4 grand.
|
| It really is the way of the future in my mind.
| narag wrote:
| _A lot of comments are dismissing this because it doesn 't
| provide a credential upon completion._
|
| Obvious solution would be decoupling teaching and
| certification. Actually, having both performed by the same
| institutions seems like a conflict of interest.
| mosselman wrote:
| Another solution would be to have apprenticeship as you had
| them in olden days: You can become an apprentice at one or
| preferably a few craftsmen (IT companies) for a given number
| of years. They'd teach you, pay you and in the end evaluate
| you. You can do that in parallel to following something like
| the given materials in OSSU.
|
| Germany has apprenticeships as far as I am aware, I don't
| know enough about it though.
|
| edit: Yes! Having certification and teaching done by one
| organisation _IS_ a huge conflict of interest. Splitting
| these up without changing the fundamentals (courses and
| exams/assignments) woudln't do much to fix this I think as
| you'd either have clumsy evaluations or organisations that
| just help each other out in order to gain from a slightly
| different system.
| williamtwild wrote:
| The US still has appreticeships in skilled labor positions.
| Electrician and carpentry to nane a few.
| stadium wrote:
| > Having certification and teaching done by one
| organisation _IS_ a huge conflict of interest
|
| A college degree is more like a certificate of completion
| than a certification of skill or competentcy. It says that
| the holder passed the minimum requirements for the degree.
|
| Post-degree certifications like CPA, medical boards,
| engineer, bar exam are already administered by independent
| organizations.
|
| I can understand if most of the resentment about these
| degreeless learning paths comes from people with 6-figure
| student loans
| bmn__ wrote:
| > I don't know enough about it
|
| https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27662804
| smithrj wrote:
| This exists actually for software development. I went
| through the AWS Software Development Engineer
| Apprenticeship when I made a career change from Military &
| Government work into Software.
|
| Similar programs exist at Google, Lyft, and a few other
| tech companies.
|
| Apprenti, the non-profit that administers the AWS
| apprenticeship, is doing pretty great work getting people
| into tech form non-traditional roles.
| rrrrrrrrrrrryan wrote:
| I'm still kind of surprised that software engineers don't
| have the same certification process as structural engineers,
| civil engineers, etc. You have to work as a newbie for a
| couple years, then get a few professional engineers to vouch
| for you, then pass an exam, _then_ you get your stamp.
|
| Sure, you can get certified by Amazon or Google or Microsoft
| in their own proprietary tech stack, and you can get a degree
| from an accredited university, but there's no formal body of
| software engineers who've outlined a process by which you can
| earn your engineering stamp.
| stadium wrote:
| > Obvious solution
|
| I don't see a problem here that needs fixing. It seems you
| are conflating certification with degree.
|
| Competition from open learning paths should make paid degree
| programs adapt to be more competitive. Open, self paced
| learning isn't for everyone, but it's still awesome to see
| the open access to this knowledge with little to no economic
| barriers to entry.
| ericmay wrote:
| Education and certification _are_ decoupled. The problem is
| employers insist on the certifications. So why bother
| educating yourself with the same material and not just
| getting the certification at the same time? It's more
| profitable that way if your goal is to get a job.
|
| If you want to just learn, there are no practical barriers
| for most people.
| AnimalMuppet wrote:
| The problem is that the existing education+certification
| process is _staggeringly_ inefficient and wasteful. The
| other problem is that employers insist on certifications
| _from an educational institution_.
|
| The efficient answer is a certification that employers will
| accept, and various competing educational pathways. And if
| your educational pathway was reading Byte Magazines that
| you found in your uncle's attic, and you actually learned
| enough to pass the certification, well, that's probably not
| the most _efficient_ educational path, but if it worked for
| you, congratulations. You 're certified.
| thereddaikon wrote:
| Formal education and certification are definitely not
| decoupled. You learn at the same university that gives you
| the degree.
|
| While I agree with the above that having them under the
| same roof can cause a conflict of interest. But we also
| know for a fact that having them decoupled can cause
| serious problems as well. For one you end up with brain
| dumps that study for the cert and not for the subject
| matter. We see this for MCSE as much as the SAT.
|
| While that can happen with a university as well, it doesn't
| always and is a useful measure of the institution's
| quality.
| galoisgirl wrote:
| Well, someone has to certify the university. They
| wouldn't stay certified long if they just gave diplomas
| to anything with a pulse.
| randomdata wrote:
| As a Canadian, the most educated nation in the world, we
| do pretty much give diplomas to anything with a pulse. It
| doesn't affect school credibility, it merely pushes
| people to feel like they need even higher levels of
| formal education to compete.
| 908B64B197 wrote:
| I wonder if it's related to the immigration system:
| having a degree can score you enough points to be able to
| immigrate (no matter how employable or if the degree is
| real) [0].
|
| [0] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IHTg5zzFEKE
| ericmay wrote:
| > As a Canadian, the most educated nation in the world
|
| > we do pretty much give diplomas to anything with a
| pulse
|
| What's the metric for being the most educated nation?
| 'Cause ya know if it's "most diplomas per capita" or
| something and you freely give them out... we might want
| to rethink that lol.
|
| Just something to think about I guess
| randomdata wrote:
| _> What 's the metric for being the most educated
| nation?_
|
| The metric OECD uses.
| ericmay wrote:
| Could you elaborate on the differences here with formal
| education (which I imagine you mean through a university)
| and certification? Why would you go to the university and
| complete all of the course load but then not get the
| certification?
| whoisburbansky wrote:
| Coupled in the sense that it's the university providing
| the certification as well. Contrast this with certain
| national school systems where local high schools provide
| instruction but your final exam papers are graded by a
| centralized national authority, which is what provides
| the certification. Alternatively, going to law school but
| getting certified by passing the bar, which isn't under
| the direct control of your law school.
| throwawaygh wrote:
| _> You learn at the same university that gives you the
| degree._
|
| In the United States, this certification happens at the
| institutional level. Universities are either accredited
| by either a regional body (good) or a national body (not
| so good). The accreditation process requires
| demonstrating that you have competent faculty, that these
| faculty have designed a reasonable curriculum from each
| of your degree programs, that the courses taught as part
| of that curriculum cover appropriate material, and that
| students are at least nominally assessed.
|
| In addition to accreditation, there's also a reputation
| effect among employers. We know which of the universities
| in our region have strong CS programs, and which ones are
| not so strong. And there's a reason that employers prefer
| CS students from places like
| CMU/MIT/Stanford/Berkley/UIUC/etc. The names aren't just
| names -- those institutions have exceptional CS programs.
| I'm sure a student slips through the cracks here or
| there, but the median student from those institutions is
| almost certainly going to at least have a good background
| in CS.
|
| _> But we also know for a fact that having them
| decoupled can cause serious problems as well. For one you
| end up with brain dumps that study for the cert and not
| for the subject matter. We see this for MCSE as much as
| the SAT._
|
| Frankly, I think the decouple-and-test model is
| substantially worse than the accreditation model. Have
| you seen the contents of the Computer Science subject
| area GRE? It's from the 1980s. The AP CS exam and model
| curricula aren't that much better -- definitely not what
| I would expect out of a CS 1 student at any decent
| university. In fact, I can't think of a single formal
| exam in CS that's actually a decent signal of even basic
| CS knowledge, let alone engineering skill.
| ericmay wrote:
| > In the United States, this certification happens at the
| institutional level. Universities are either accredited
| by either a regional body (good) or a national body (not
| so good). The accreditation process requires
| demonstrating that you have competent faculty, that these
| faculty have designed a reasonable curriculum from each
| of your degree programs, that the courses taught as part
| of that curriculum cover appropriate material, and that
| students are at least nominally assessed.
|
| Yes, I'm aware of accreditation and the process. I've
| served on a department advisory board for about 5 years
| now and have seen the process via ABET first hand. I hate
| to disappoint you, but these accreditation agencies are
| box-checkers and they don't do too much other than
| publish some guidelines and look at course material. The
| university could lose the accreditation and teach the
| same stuff and nothing would really change for students -
| in a vacuum student outcomes would be exactly the same
| except that as you mention...
|
| > there's also a reputation effect among employers.
|
| This has not much to do with accreditation. CMU, MIT,
| Stanford, etc... could lose their accreditation and
| nothing would change for the university. Their reputation
| is far stronger than the governing body. The exceptional
| programs that are there exist without consideration to
| ABET. It's just not meaningful. If they said "we are no
| longer complying with ABET" (at least for engineering) it
| would discredit _ABET_ and not the university. Not all
| universities transcend this, but I 'd say most brand name
| ones do (Ohio State, Michigan, Arizona, Georgia, etc.).
| I'd bet a survey of employers and students would show
| very little knowledge of the existence of many of these
| accreditation bodies. It's just a battle not worth
| fighting professors over, and the accreditation bodies
| don't look too hard because why kill the golden goose?
| Everybody just winks at each other. I guess think about
| accreditation bodies as insurance.
|
| Anyway, that's just my take on these accreditation
| bodies. I'm sure some are better and some are worse.
|
| But my main point was that education itself is decoupled
| from certification. The employers (as you mentioned) care
| about certification, but that is the degree from the
| prestigious university, not whether ABET says that the
| curriculum meets some standard. You can learn computer
| science or any other topic to a high degree of
| proficiency, but employers still care about the
| certification. So you might as well just get the
| certification if you care about education as a means to a
| job.
| throwawaygh wrote:
| AFAIK ABET's process is different from regional
| accreditation, probably in part because ABET's historical
| roots were in Engineering where there is an explicit
| assumption of eventual external certification (the PE
| exam).
|
| _> The university could lose the accreditation and teach
| the same stuff and nothing would really change for
| students - in a vacuum student outcomes would be exactly
| the same except that as you mention..._
|
| This is definitely not true of regional accreditation --
| a degree from an unaccredited institution isn't worth the
| paper it's printed on in many fields. Also, as you point
| out, it's a low bar. If a university is accredited it may
| or may not do a good job at education/assessment. But a
| university that loses regional accreditation is almost
| certainly doing a horrible job at both.
|
| ABET is a bit different -- lots of quality programs
| aren't ABET accredited. But still, in traditional
| Engineering fields, losing ABET accreditation can also
| have a material effect on students' outcomes (can you
| even sit for the PE exam without an ABET accredited
| degree?)
|
| _> these accreditation agencies are box-checkers and
| they don 't do too much other than publish some
| guidelines and look at course material._
|
| Yes, there's no silver bullet and the map is never the
| territory. The only alternative I'm aware of is
| standardized exams, which, well, look at US K12 or the CS
| GRE.
|
| _> > there's also a reputation effect among employers._
|
| _> This has not much to do with accreditation._
|
| Right, they are two separate things but both effect
| institutional behavior.
|
| _> But my main point was that education itself is
| decoupled from certification. The employers (as you
| mentioned) care about certification, but that is the
| degree from the prestigious university, not whether ABET
| says that the curriculum meets some standard. You can
| learn computer science or any other topic to a high
| degree of proficiency, but employers still care about the
| certification. So you might as well just get the
| certification if you care about education as a means to a
| job._
|
| This we agree on.
| ChrisRR wrote:
| Exactly. I think if you're the sort of person who can self
| teach yourself an entire CS degree in your spare time, that's
| going to look very good on your CV, accreditation or not.
|
| The issue would be getting past the automated CV checkers or
| recruiters that will throw out any applicants that don't have a
| certain grade
| austincheney wrote:
| Nobody looks at grades unless you are a fresh graduate with
| nothing else to populate on a resume.
| ganafagol wrote:
| With less than 5 years of experience it's definitely a
| factor. If your straight Cs and B- and only have 3 years in
| some junior role, you're really not prio 1 interview
| material.
| austincheney wrote:
| Then all my interviews (and coworkers) imply a radically
| different experience. Education is just one or optional
| lines on a resume that nobody looks at. You don't need a
| CS degree (or any degree at all) to be a developer.
| austincheney wrote:
| _A lot of comments are dismissing this because it doesn 't
| provide a credential upon completion._
|
| That's rich considering how quickly (and aggressively) software
| developers dismiss all other forms of credentials (licensing,
| certifications, advanced degrees), especially on HN.
| AnimalMuppet wrote:
| HN isn't one person. There are a variety of people here with
| a variety of viewpoints. To expect consistency in what people
| say here is to expect disappointment, because you aren't
| going to get it.
|
| There are a lot of software engineers who don't have any kind
| of certification, including a degree. Many of us at least
| know such people, even if we aren't that person ourselves.
| We're kind of skeptical of anything that says "that person
| isn't qualified to do this work".
|
| Many other software engineers (I say "other", but it's not a
| completely disjoint set) see too many people show up at
| interviews (or even on the job) who can't program. Like,
| can't program _at all_. They 'd like some way to weed them
| out.
|
| And then some other people look at this program from a purely
| selfish point of view, and say "Learning some stuff might
| help my career, but I can do that without this program. But
| learning some stuff with a certification would help my career
| more..."
| commandlinefan wrote:
| Well, I'm pretty sure the people dismissing this for lack of
| certification are the same people (like myself) who also
| dismiss the dismissal of all other forms of credentials
| (licensing, certification, advanced degrees).
| nicoburns wrote:
| I think the reason fo this emphasis is that there are already
| plenty of resources for self-learning CS. Indeed a lot of the
| mainstream universities make their course materials available.
| The bit that is not typically available is the credential, so
| if we truly want to disrupt the edcuation model then that's the
| bit that needs to be solved.
| j45 wrote:
| This type of logic would say there no point in having more
| than a few CS programs worldwide because it already exists.
|
| Credentials historically are built in the brand of the
| institution, a clock which is starting to tick.
|
| Would you care for the credential of an institution if it
| goes out of business in the next 3-5 years?
| nicoburns wrote:
| > This type of logic would say there no point in having
| more than a few CS programs worldwide because it already
| exists.
|
| Well... yes. If they were all open programs then that may
| well be true. Of course there's value in diversity. But it
| does seem like a massive waste of resources that we have
| students paying thousands for tuition they could get much
| cheaper if it was shared around more widely.
|
| > Would you care for the credential of an institution if it
| goes out of business in the next 3-5 years?
|
| That depends entirely on whether my credential was still
| accepted beyond that point. But in any case, I don't see
| why a new credentialing organisation should last any less
| long than an older one.
| psiconaut wrote:
| yes, but please consider that pursuing such disruption and
| getting a self-taught education might be orthogonal problems.
| event though there are many resources, I appreciate the
| effort put into curating a selection of those.
| nivenkos wrote:
| Nand2Tetris and Roughgarden, looks like an excellent syllabus
| tbh.
|
| Unfortunately it's pretty worthless without a paper degree. It's
| cool that Finland is now having open online registration for
| Finnish citizens to do online courses like
| https://fullstackopen.com/en/
|
| It's a shame something like that doesn't exist in every country.
| dento wrote:
| In Finland you can usually complete first year of the bachelors
| studies without enrolling to the university. Some of the
| courses, like first programming courses in CS, are free. Others
| cost a small fee, around 75EUR per course. If you decide to
| enroll in the uni later, those will be acknowledged as well.
| They also have Digital Education For All program that has all
| of the first year studies for free.
|
| I personally did complete about six months worth of studies
| while still in the secondary education.
| nivenkos wrote:
| Yeah, it seems so awesome. And using the Personnummer /
| BankID to allow all the registration online, etc.
|
| Lightyears ahead of the rest of Europe.
| tashoecraft wrote:
| For a lot of positions, this is worth more than a paper degree.
| If I came across a candidate who did all of this, has a profile
| filled with visible projects, and was able to finish all of
| this course work self directed then they are going to be worlds
| better than most CS graduates.
| [deleted]
| wildgeodude wrote:
| Autodidacts ASSEMBLE!
| throwawayobvs wrote:
| And re-invent the wheel. Or build scripting languages on top of
| scripting languages. And lay bricks and call them "code".
| TheGigaChad wrote:
| Or doxx your idiotic ass.
| gtsnexp wrote:
| Would be great to add pure Physics and Mathematics syllabi.
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