[HN Gopher] Audacity: Clarification of Privacy Policy
       ___________________________________________________________________
        
       Audacity: Clarification of Privacy Policy
        
       Author : anonymousab
       Score  : 103 points
       Date   : 2021-07-05 16:30 UTC (6 hours ago)
        
 (HTM) web link (github.com)
 (TXT) w3m dump (github.com)
        
       | theden wrote:
       | Pretty laughable they have to post even more walls of text to
       | convince folks that it's okay for an _offline_ application to spy
       | on you. Frankly, this would have probably been tolerated or
       | largely ignored if there wasn't a long history of Audacity not
       | doing this and for the most part working well.
       | 
       | Time to either move to hard fork (if it happens) or find an
       | alternative IMO, they can choose to die on this hill.
       | 
       | We're already tracked by so many apps (and at the OS-level for
       | many) I think a lot of people are pushing back hard (maybe
       | unfairly) because it's something they can control since it's
       | FOSS.
       | 
       | Audacity has been around for over 20 years! It's takes some
       | serious ego to drop in CLAs and telemetry on the community months
       | after acquiring it.
        
         | jitl wrote:
         | Telemetry and error reporting are opt-in. Error reporting uses
         | industry-standard Sentry (also an OSS), which is not a
         | nefarious data seller. Auto-update checked are opt-count and
         | send a very basic user-agent with less data than an average web
         | browser HTTP request. There is no spying here.
        
           | theden wrote:
           | Yeah maybe by modern software which doesn't respect the
           | user's privacy and resource usage it's nothing to worry
           | about.
           | 
           | I'd say this is a regression, and adding all that networking
           | code makes it easier for them to push it further down the
           | line, and adds more vectors for attacks.
           | 
           | At best it's bloat. Developers were able to write good
           | software without pulling in user's data before, it says more
           | about the devs if they think it's so necessary.
           | 
           | Okay say it's not spying--you now have another app on your
           | system pinging hosts, and depending on how much you trust
           | Muse, you have to check the changelog every time to ensure
           | they haven't added more bloat or juiced up the telemetry.
           | 
           | I'd posit that spying has been normalised we don't even
           | recognise it anymore. Opt-in isn't a get out of jail free
           | card, since your avg user will just click whatever.
        
             | tapoxi wrote:
             | I'm sorry I really don't get the privacy issue here. It
             | automatically checks for updates, most apps do, and in
             | doing so it appears in the logs for a webserver (and I'm
             | pretty sure most sysadmins want to retain access and error
             | logs)
             | 
             | The error reporting is by an open-source tool and is opt-
             | in.
        
             | noobermin wrote:
             | Can't you just turn off auto update and not get this?
             | 
             | FFS, any time you connect to a website they know your IP
             | address. A log will save it, perhaps, and they say they
             | prune their logs after 24 hours which is reasonable.
             | 
             | Literally wget sends this sort of info, you can try it
             | wget -d example.com
             | 
             | unless now wget is spyware too. This whole thing is a
             | nothingburger at best and just a pr disaster at worst.
        
               | theden wrote:
               | You're comparing web tools/browsers to an offline audio
               | editor.
               | 
               | Though I agree it's a PR disaster--people are upset, I
               | don't think folks can be reasoned with since it's partly
               | a backlash of yet another small community being taken
               | over by corporate mediocrity.
        
               | noobermin wrote:
               | People are not getting the point. If you have to
               | _download the software_ they will get this info, full
               | stop. There is no way that they won 't get your user
               | agent. That's what this privacy policy refers to. Same if
               | you download auto-updates, you have to download the
               | updates from the internet which requires connecting to
               | their webserver, and they'll get this information.
               | 
               | As for the telemetry, that's opt-in. May be the bloat and
               | other things that are being mentioned are about that? But
               | for the first two bullets on information that is
               | mentioned as collected (IP addr and os info) that is
               | mentioned in the linked github discussion, they are
               | literally what they will get because you had to visit
               | their site to download it or because you automatically
               | download updates.
        
       | userbinator wrote:
       | Microsoft popularised telemetry in otherwise-offline applications
       | with Windows 10. Now every other trendchasing company thinks they
       | should do it too.
       | 
       | They always claim it improves software, but all that seems to
       | happen is it just gets dumbed down and features removed, making
       | it worse for experienced/power users.
        
         | noobermin wrote:
         | This isn't telemetry though.
        
       | miles wrote:
       | CoasterGhost has uploaded[1] 31 versions of Audacity and Github
       | source code for 18 versions to archive.org[2] for posterity.
       | 
       | [1]
       | https://old.reddit.com/r/DataHoarder/comments/oe2opu/due_to_...
       | 
       | [2] https://archive.org/details/AudacityArchive
        
       | nxpnsv wrote:
       | But, why do they need to store IP-address at all? It don't see
       | what good it can do.
        
         | deadbunny wrote:
         | I would assume it's from webserver logs. I could of course be
         | wrong.
        
           | noobermin wrote:
           | They reference GDPR so that's exactly why they mention it.
        
         | anonymousab wrote:
         | Logs, maybe abuse protection? For better or worse, the
         | musescore-downloader affair has probably made them a bit
         | pensive and defensive around potential abuse from clients.
         | 
         | They may also simply think that it's just plainly required if
         | they're going to run an online service that the app connects to
         | by default.
         | 
         | That's all speculation though, hopefully they'll answer that
         | question on the GitHub discussion.
        
       | undfg wrote:
       | This reminds me of the freenode debacle. The problem is not that
       | audacity was purchased, the problem is that it was sold.
        
         | arkitaip wrote:
         | I get the feeling that the community has had enough of the
         | corporate shenanigans, that a proper fork is about to go alive
         | any day now.
        
       | yoyomamamama wrote:
       | Audacity is over as soon as a fork gets some momentum.
        
         | Barrin92 wrote:
         | depends on someone actually paying the developers because I
         | don't think development is community driven but done by Muse.
         | 
         | People need to keep in mind that open source software doesn't
         | automatically develop itself just because you can fork the
         | code. Audacity is a pretty big, complicated piece of software.
        
       | akersten wrote:
       | This is now the 2nd "clarification" that Muse group, the new team
       | in charge of Audacity, has recently put out - the first one being
       | here[0]. At this point, it's clear that they are taking the
       | product in an unpopular direction. So why keep pushing an online-
       | first privacy policy and telemetry? Certainly it is not one of
       | the pressing needs of the core product.
       | 
       | Honestly, it will take some convincing to make me think this _isn
       | 't_ nefarious at this point. At a minimum, the community is not
       | being listened to, just placated.
       | 
       | [0]: https://github.com/audacity/audacity/discussions/880
        
         | rStar wrote:
         | when this happens the product dies. in my mind it's as if
         | audacity never existed. hopefully a project emerges from a
         | forked code base that's useable going forward.
        
           | zxzax wrote:
           | I'm not sure why the word "fork" is being repeatedly
           | mentioned or why people are thinking this is making the code
           | unusable. At most, I would expect a patched distribution
           | similar to VSCodium to pop up, i.e. not a hard fork. If there
           | was willpower in the community to fork the project and fix
           | all the other long standing issues, that would have happened
           | already, so there is no reason to expect a fork here.
        
         | xtracto wrote:
         | I dont understand all the ruckus around this. Just fork the
         | repo and remove the spying code (I dont want an audio editor to
         | share my CPU and IP with anyone).
         | 
         | It has been done for larger codebases like OpenOffice and
         | MySql.
        
       | tlackemann wrote:
       | I don't understand the pettiness around this issue.
       | 
       | Audacity needed a maintainer to help with support and
       | development. Developer, who has a pretty active YouTube channel
       | covering design in music software, takes interest and leads the
       | project. Said developer adds telemetry to help make more informed
       | decisions. People lose their collective minds.
       | 
       | Can someone fill me in on what this person could have done
       | better? Honestly, it seems like pearl-clutching from a select
       | group of users who never gave a shit in the first place and just
       | want to whine about something they never contributed to and get
       | to use for free.
        
         | zelphirkalt wrote:
         | How about just asking people for their opinion instead of
         | trying to somehow conclude on usage patterns and stuff from
         | telemetry data, which is not opt-in, but opt-out, which is
         | quite sneaky in itself?
         | 
         | "Just ask those people!" Is what I think every single time,
         | when this kind of issue pops up. Ask the people what they find
         | annoying about the product, ask them what they like. There are
         | many questions you can ask and which yield a much more direct
         | result than telemetry data, without upsetting a community and
         | without coming across as sneaky and disrespectful of user
         | privacy.
        
           | blooalien wrote:
           | Exactly! And if you really _need_ any sort of  "telemetry" to
           | get the data that you need, then do what so many other FOSS
           | software I've seen with any sort of "phone home features"
           | does, and simply _ask_ the user during the first run if it 's
           | okay to send <such and such data> for development purposes.
           | (Also, a toggle in the preferences is always nice, too, so
           | that I can enable such a feature on days I'm feeling
           | particularly helpful, and still easily disable it on days I'm
           | feeling like there's no need for my software to be sending
           | data anywhere outside my network.)
           | 
           | It's not uncommon for me to approve such features when I'm
           | dealing with software I _trust_ , and when I'm thoroughly
           | informed of _exactly what data they 're collecting and why_.
           | If I see a list of reasonable data points and it's not too
           | intrusive or overreaching (and if I can examine the data
           | _before_ it 's sent) then I'm quite often okay with it
           | (again, with software I _already trust_ for other reasons).
        
         | dantondwa wrote:
         | I think there's a misunderstanding: Tantacrul, the developer
         | with a pretty active Youtube channel, works for the Muse Group,
         | which acquired Audacity. This has nothing to do with him. A
         | company acquired Audacity, not him, and he's not in charge of
         | the Muse Group. Your portraying of the whole thing is
         | inaccurate.
         | 
         | People didn't lose their collective minds.
         | 
         | The Muse Group acquired Audacity, then introduced:
         | 
         | - a CLA (which, between other things, allows them to make
         | closed source versions of Audacity)
         | 
         | - telemetry
         | 
         | - a very controversial privacy policy
         | 
         | People aren't losing their minds. And please, do not spread
         | misinformation.
        
           | maccard wrote:
           | >people aren't losing there minds
           | 
           | Have you read this thread? See [0] as an example.
           | 
           | [0] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27740350
        
           | whateveracct wrote:
           | > a CLA (which, between other things, allows them to make
           | closed source versions of Audacity)
           | 
           | But all previous commits they'd build on are GPL..
        
           | zxzax wrote:
           | Controversial? This looks extremely similar to most other
           | privacy policies. I would urge you to read the privacy policy
           | on any other web sites that you visit, or for any other
           | services that you use, and compare and contrast. A good
           | starting point might be the privacy policy on your phone's
           | app store.
        
             | Lammy wrote:
             | We're talking about Free Software -- not about websites,
             | services, or mobile cartels.
        
               | zxzax wrote:
               | I'm not sure what you're suggesting the difference is, or
               | what specifically here is a "mobile cartel?" FOSS
               | projects and other related things also have privacy
               | policies, and in fact you probably want them to so that
               | they're clear what they're doing with the data they've
               | aggregated. Here's some examples:
               | 
               | https://docs.github.com/en/github/site-policy/github-
               | privacy...
               | 
               | https://www.debian.org/legal/privacy.en.html
               | 
               | https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Legal:PrivacyPolicy
               | 
               | https://www.fsf.org/about/free-software-foundation-
               | privacy-p...
        
               | Lammy wrote:
               | Those are all talking about interacting with those
               | projects' websites and community events, not about
               | interacting with the software those projects produce or
               | package. It is absolutely not the norm that Free Software
               | running on my machine reports my usage.
        
               | zxzax wrote:
               | Do you expect to be able to receive updates and security
               | fixes to your installed programs? Or send back a patch or
               | bug report? If so, then it absolutely is the norm,
               | because all that needs to be done over the internet and
               | can generate PII. It probably shouldn't be assumed that a
               | distribution platform can avoid having a clear and
               | straightforward privacy policy because it calls itself a
               | "FOSS repo" and not an "app store." Or did I miss
               | something? Do some people only exchange security updates
               | and crash dumps off of physical media given in person?
        
               | Lammy wrote:
               | > Do some people only exchange security updates and crash
               | dumps off of physical media given in person?
               | 
               | Sure it's not "the norm" but personally I run a
               | Poudriere[0] server and build all my own software
               | packages. One server syncs the FreeBSD Ports collection
               | and downloads the needed software source distfiles, but
               | then none of my other machines/jails are allowed to
               | install software from anywhere outside my own network. A
               | lot of them don't get any Internet access at all.
               | 
               | That still has nothing to do with in-app analytics
               | though.
               | 
               | [0] https://github.com/freebsd/poudriere/wiki
        
               | zxzax wrote:
               | I'm still not sure what you're saying, you're still
               | downloading the source from an external website on the
               | internet, which I would expect would have a privacy
               | policy, and would do things like comply with the GDPR.
               | And presumably, the ports collection is getting the
               | original source from upstreams, which could be on github
               | or a similar service, so you can't sidestep that if you
               | want to maintain your own ports tree.
               | 
               | It absolutely does have to do with analytics: in
               | particular, Debian has an opt-in anayltics system called
               | "popcon" which is mentioned in the privacy policy.
        
         | AnIdiotOnTheNet wrote:
         | > Said developer adds telemetry to help make more informed
         | decisions. People lose their collective minds.
         | 
         | I have never once used software I thought was actually good
         | that was designed based on feedback from telemetry.
        
           | arkitaip wrote:
           | How would you know though? Telemetry is so common in desktop
           | and web apps alike that you're probably surrounded by it.
        
         | McGlockenshire wrote:
         | > Said developer adds telemetry to help make more informed
         | decisions. People lose their collective minds.
         | 
         | I don't understand the reaction either. It's hard to talk about
         | this stuff here because of the anti-analytics groupthink.
         | Everyone seems to jump to the worst possible conclusion
         | whenever it's brought up.
         | 
         | I can't help but wonder if the people screeching about it have
         | ever actually put analytics in their own products.
         | Understanding how your software is used in the real world by
         | real users is absolutely invaluable!
        
         | frobozz wrote:
         | One thing would be not violating the Open Source Definition by
         | forbidding use by under 13s.
        
         | techrat wrote:
         | https://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/gadgets-and-tech/au...
        
         | system16 wrote:
         | I think if you read the comments in the link, it's pretty
         | clear: changes regarding personal information were dumped on
         | the community along with a bunch of legalese without warning,
         | an announcement, or context. Had the new maintainers given the
         | community a heads up via a simple blog post explaining the
         | reasoning behind this, we wouldn't be where we are. Hopefully
         | they can chalk this off as a learning experience and move
         | forward to gain trust of the community.
        
         | kennywinker wrote:
         | You missed: project purchased by ad-heavy website owner
         | (ultimateguitar).
         | 
         | As for how they could make it better: make it opt-in not opt-
         | out.
         | 
         | This is the kind of toxic behaviour we all tolerate from
         | commercial software, but people get mad when it leaks into open
         | source.
        
         | Xc43 wrote:
         | An example of the problem is that in the UK those below 13yo
         | cannot give consent to telemetry. Audacity is used in their
         | public schooling system. Newer versions of Audacity will not be
         | usable by those students anymore.
         | 
         | Roughly.
        
           | ronsor wrote:
           | So they just don't consent to it? The telemetry certainly
           | isn't mandatory; it isn't even enabled by default from what I
           | can tell.
        
             | Xc43 wrote:
             | There was no opt-out. Minors were asked not to use the app.
             | 
             | Here is the link towards the Privacy notice on the 2nd of
             | July. https://archive.fo/d3LBR#selection-673.0-673.129
        
               | xavriley wrote:
               | Asked not to is different from forbidden though, no? I'm
               | not a legal expert but I doubt this clause is one they
               | wanted to put in and is probably driven by some legal
               | counsel with an eye on international law.
        
               | rStar wrote:
               | lawyers do what they're told. This is the acquiring
               | company maximizing the value of their acquisition by any
               | means possible.
        
               | Xc43 wrote:
               | In this case, children 12 and below cannot give consent
               | but they can use the app if parental consent is given.
               | 
               | Having children in that age range use the app would
               | require Audacity to seek parental consent by "[making]
               | reasonable efforts (taking into account the available
               | technology and risks inherent in the processing) to
               | verify that the person providing consent holds parental
               | responsibility for the child."1
               | 
               | While they wrote to minors "please do not use the App",
               | they also wrote "The App we provide is not intended for
               | individuals below the age of 13."2 Not being a lawyer, I
               | cannot talk about the implications of these passages.
               | 
               | src1: https://ico.org.uk/for-organisations/guide-to-data-
               | protectio... src2: link in my parent comment
        
               | foerbert wrote:
               | The specific situation being pointed out here is that the
               | software is/was used in public schools. It doesn't really
               | fit in the category of "if nobody knows, nobody cares,
               | and nobody wants to know" that you'll find on your on
               | personal device.
               | 
               | The school installing software that has terms not
               | allowing those under 13 to use it, because those kids
               | don't have the legal right to consent to the software
               | collecting information from them, has a very real chance
               | of becoming an issue - both for the school and whoever
               | made the decision.
        
               | Majromax wrote:
               | It sounds like _any_ Internet use by children in schools
               | would be a legal issue, then. If IP addresses are
               | considered personally identifiable information subject to
               | consent policies, then ordinary web logging is data
               | collection that a child can not consent to.
               | 
               | A more direct example would be in Chrome/Firefox/etc
               | automatically checking for updates, which is the
               | equivalent of what Audacity describes in the linked post.
        
         | matheusmoreira wrote:
         | > Said developer adds telemetry to help make more informed
         | decisions. People lose their collective minds.
         | 
         | Their ability to make decisions doesn't matter. It is does not
         | justify putting spyware into previously trusted software.
         | 
         | Also, nobody believes that excuse for a second. They couldn't
         | care less about "improving" anything but their bottom line.
         | They are merely capitalizing on the trustworthiness of an open
         | source project in an attempt to extract maximum value out of
         | its users.
         | 
         | If they wanted to improve the software, they would have hired
         | somebody with good taste to work on it. People with good taste
         | do not tolerate abusive spyware.
         | 
         | > Can someone fill me in on what this person could have done
         | better?
         | 
         | They could have not collected any "metrics" in the first place.
         | That way, this ridiculous privacy policy would never have been
         | necessary.
        
       | Andoryuuta wrote:
       | Alongside the Audacity changes, the Muse group has also performed
       | some highly questionable actions in the context of MuseScore,
       | such as falsely claiming that a downloader script was illegal,
       | and that they owned copyright of all sheet music on their site.
       | Going as far as to state that they will "cooperate with
       | github.com and Chinese government to physically find you and stop
       | the illegal use of licensed content." [0].
       | 
       | Unfortunately, I don't believe the general users of audacity will
       | ever hear about the groups actions, and will continue to use the
       | audacity without knowledge of what has changed.
       | 
       | [0]: https://github.com/Xmader/musescore-downloader/issues/5
        
         | Xylakant wrote:
         | That thread is certainly not a good example of communication,
         | but I cannot find any place where a representative from the
         | Muse group says that they own the copyright to all sheet music
         | on their site. They say (and that's to the best of my knowledge
         | mostly correct at least here in Germany) that the arrangement
         | for music is legally protected and even if someone else typed
         | down the sheet, the rights to this sheet are still protected.
         | And they point to the music industry enforcing restrictions
         | (having worked with the music industry, I find that one
         | entirely credible)
        
           | maccard wrote:
           | There's a thread on an AMA about ultimate guitar from a while
           | back where the founder talks about when they made the
           | decisions to start adding the features people complain about,
           | and the impression he gives is exactly that; the rights
           | holders of the music had them over a barrel and it was a sink
           | or swim decision
        
         | alpaca128 wrote:
         | > Going as far as to state that they will "cooperate with
         | github.com and Chinese government to physically find you and
         | stop the illegal use of licensed content."
         | 
         | Wow, that's low. It's one thing to send dumb threats, it's
         | another to threaten someone with involvement of a government
         | that frequently disappears people. This is how you turn your
         | products into the PR equivalent of radioactive waste.
        
         | throwaaskjdfh wrote:
         | The tone of the post from the Musescore developer at [0] is so
         | bizarre I wonder if the people who manage the company's
         | policies and communications even know about it.
        
         | kzrdude wrote:
         | In that case, at least there is some separation between the
         | site musescore.com and the musescore open source app.
        
       | sneak wrote:
       | > _We believe concerns are due largely to unclear phrasing in the
       | Privacy Policy_
       | 
       | This is gaslighting. It's not the wording people have an issue
       | with, it's the nonconsensual spyware.
        
         | akerl_ wrote:
         | How could it be nonconsensual? The policy is provided when
         | installing the software. This may certainly be a bad decision
         | for the Audacity team, but nobody is being forced to use their
         | product.
        
           | matheusmoreira wrote:
           | Nobody reads much less agrees to these idiotic policy texts.
           | I don't care who made the software or their "conditions" for
           | using it. If it's running on my machine, it answers to me and
           | me alone. This "we put it on the terms and conditions so it's
           | fine" bullshit needs to go away.
        
             | akerl_ wrote:
             | I wonder if this is what the folks on the Copilot team
             | thought, shortly after cloning all those licensed repos to
             | their machines.
             | 
             | If you're not concerned with the licensing on software once
             | you've managed to get a copy, I guess Audacity's behavior
             | shouldn't be an issue: just compel it to behave differently
             | on your machine.
        
               | matheusmoreira wrote:
               | > just compel it to behave differently on your machine
               | 
               | Oh I will. The thing is I shouldn't _have_ to do this. We
               | 're all tired of these obnoxious companies forcing this
               | sort of crap on us. Why can't they just release their
               | stupid thing with no strings attached? If this is their
               | "contribution" I'd rather they just did nothing.
        
               | blooalien wrote:
               | > "just compel it to behave differently on your machine."
               | 
               | Right there you name one of the _biggest joys_ of FOSS
               | for me. On _my_ machine, I sure do love that all my tools
               | do _my_ bidding the way _I_ want them to. :)
        
           | anonymousab wrote:
           | It is nonconsensual when the starting premise is "using
           | Audacity".
           | 
           | "Consensual" in that case would mean opt-in telemetry.
        
             | akerl_ wrote:
             | That's some serious mental gymnastics. I'll be sure file a
             | complaint at the supermarket for nonconsenual collections:
             | I wanted to take the vegetables home, but they don't let me
             | opt out of paying.
        
               | elmo2you wrote:
               | Unless the telemetry is somehow a form of payment for
               | using the (open source) product, I think your argument
               | falls under:
               | 
               | https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reductio_ad_absurdum
        
               | akerl_ wrote:
               | Given that the context here is "a producer of something
               | setting the terms under which they'll give it to somebody
               | else", my grocery store hardly sounds like an extreme
               | example.
        
           | elmo2you wrote:
           | I don't think it's always that easy. Once people are
           | committed to a certain product, quitting or switching to an
           | alternative isn't always simple or even possible. There can
           | even be substantial financial damage involved. Maybe not in a
           | way that the producer can be held legally liable for, but
           | damage nonetheless.
           | 
           | I believe this argument of "users have a freedom to either
           | take it or leave it" has been repeatedly debunked many times
           | over. It just isn't accurately describing reality.
        
             | akerl_ wrote:
             | It does reflect reality, as evidenced by what's about to
             | happen for Audacity: if they keep the terms as-is, people
             | will either use the software as the terms are written or
             | they'll stop using it.
             | 
             | As an example, UK schools are likely to have to either
             | negotiate an alternate license or switch products.
             | 
             | What's been "debunked" is that products die off because of
             | things like adding telemetry, because plenty of people
             | don't consider that a dealbreaker
        
         | elmo2you wrote:
         | It certainly looks that way. Though in fairness, gaslighting
         | implies the intent to deceive. I fear that these folk could
         | actually be more of the kind that simply doesn't see anything
         | wrong with their way of "making" money.
         | 
         | While technically legal (although the last about that might not
         | have been said either), I think they are going to find out how
         | their grubby ideas of right-and-wrong might not align at all
         | with a substantial part of the user base of the product they
         | now own.
         | 
         | I believe that they are already doing actual practical harm in
         | some places, which might end up costing them dearly if it would
         | trigger some kind of organized revolt. With their behavior so
         | far, that can/will only end in escalation. I very much doubt
         | that the plans of this new owner will become the financial
         | success they may have imagined.
         | 
         | Sadly, Audacity as a product will no doubt suffer as a
         | consequence. Still makes me wonder if there hasn't been some
         | kind of financial support/injection by a commercial vendor
         | involved, somehow. Of course it doesn't have to, but the idea
         | just does not want to leave me alone.
        
       | 41209 wrote:
       | Any good alternatives.
       | 
       | It's better to consider the project dead then to argue with them
        
         | racl101 wrote:
         | I'd totally get a paid product like Ableton or Pro Tools if
         | they didn't send data about me.
        
         | themodelplumber wrote:
         | It really depends on what you need.
         | 
         | There are lots of non-FOSS but effectively-free alternatives.
         | Ocenaudio is way better than Audacity in gobs of ways, except
         | it's not multi-track. Reaper is pretty great but if you're
         | hoping for commercial use with $20K+ gross/year, you need to
         | pay $200+ USD.
         | 
         | In FOSS land, Zrhythm, Qtractor, LMMS...but these are DAWs so
         | again it depends on what you were using Audacity for. You could
         | even learn sox and maybe benefit from some command line use,
         | like writing scripts for things you need to do all the time.
         | 
         | My advice: List the specific tasks you need to do, and aim to
         | find 2-3 apps that will fill the gap. Then any extras on top of
         | that will be gravy.
         | 
         | Edit: Oh and you can also use FOSS like Blender and render
         | edited sound to mp3, or KDEnlive, or other software that's
         | video or animation related. So if you already know those tools,
         | or like how they work (in some ways they are pretty slick!)
         | then they may fit better than other audio-only software.
        
       | noobermin wrote:
       | It looks like just info you pick up if you visit the site for
       | download. May be the initial communication was an issue but this
       | doesn't make it spyware necessarily. They also say it has nothing
       | to do with "offline use."
       | 
       | May be the story is as I said the initial communication now, not
       | with the privacy policy changes, no? I'm starting to feel had,
       | there is literally no telemetry here, that's just internet hype
       | and rumors.
       | 
       | EDIT: there is telemetry for bug reporting...okay that's optional
       | so I'm still seeing no fire.
        
       | xs wrote:
       | The thing that isn't addressed. Their terms now say that people
       | 13 and under cannot use their product. Yet this tool is taught in
       | schools. They want to collect this data but do not want to follow
       | COPPA laws.
        
       | dang wrote:
       | Recent and related:
       | 
       |  _Audacity 3.0 called spyware over data collection changes by new
       | owner_ - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27736151 - July
       | 2021 (70 comments)
       | 
       |  _Audacity may collect "Data necessary for law enforcement,
       | litigation" and more_ -
       | https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27727150 - July 2021 (254
       | comments)
       | 
       |  _New [July 2, 2021] Audacity Data Collection Policy_ -
       | https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27724389 - July 2021 (34
       | comments)
        
       | gigatexal wrote:
       | Too much ill-will generated with this sudden takeover of
       | audacity. Best to move on to alternatives and forks and forget
       | about Audacity's new owners.
       | 
       | https://ardour.org/
        
         | Xylakant wrote:
         | ardour may have worded that better than the audacity folks, but
         | make no mistake, as per it's privacy policy ardour will phone
         | home (to check for new versions), store information about bugs
         | and comply with requests from law enforcement.
         | If you download and use a ready-to-run version of Ardour from
         | ardour.org, the program will attempt to contact ardour.org at
         | startup to determine if you should be notified about a new
         | release of the software. If the computer where you use Ardour
         | is connected to the internet, this process will store the
         | computer's internet address and an identifier for its operating
         | system.                  If you report a bug to our bug
         | tracker, we will store whatever information you provide as part
         | of the bug report.                  When Do We Privately Share
         | Personal Data?                  Never, unless required to by
         | law.
        
       | kawsper wrote:
       | > What does the OS version string contain (e.g. on Linux
       | specifically)? Some custom kernel version strings could possibly
       | identify someone.
       | 
       | I actually didn't think of this, I compile my own kernels and add
       | my own text to the kernel name.
        
       | thayne wrote:
       | As a linux user, I have absolutely no need for an auto-update
       | feature. Hopefully that is something that can be disabled at both
       | build time and run time.
        
       | dehrmann wrote:
       | Dumb question: Audacity has a GPL license, so it can be forked or
       | built and distributed by a third party, right?
        
         | Gaelan wrote:
         | Yep. In particular, any version of audacity from a Linux
         | distro's package manager is likely already built with telemetry
         | off.
        
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