[HN Gopher] The 'flow state': Where creative work thrives (2019)
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The 'flow state': Where creative work thrives (2019)
Author : danboarder
Score : 99 points
Date : 2021-07-03 09:57 UTC (13 hours ago)
(HTM) web link (www.bbc.com)
(TXT) w3m dump (www.bbc.com)
| wombatmobile wrote:
| Humans have a larger neocortex compared to other mammals, which
| gives them more storage, working memory, and computational
| potential than other animals.
|
| The curses of the human condition are anxiety and regret, the
| conditions that render people unable to engage in the present
| moment. The former is characterised as being stuck in the future
| psychologically, and the latter is being stuck in the past. Since
| neither the future or the past can be changed by obsessive
| thoughts in the present, these psychological conditions are a
| recipe for unhappiness, because happiness can only ever happen in
| the present moment, which is lost.
|
| What characterises flow state and mindfulness is total absorption
| in the present moment.
|
| What if animals that are not burdened by human quantities of
| neocortex, such as insects and canines, which exist in the
| present moment, are actually experiencing flow and mindfulness?
|
| The spider weaves its web in perfect concentration, not stopping
| to contemplate, plan, or exercise executive judgement. Might not
| that be akin to flow?
|
| The dog and the cat and the cow and the horse, given physical
| comfort, do not seem to worry about the future or regret the
| past. Might they not be blessed with a form of mindfulness that
| humans in the rat race rarely manage to experience?
| laurent92 wrote:
| And it's the thirst for dodging those thoughts which leads a
| lot of us into passions, games, videogames and even
| workaholism, which then becomes its own condition. The
| addiction of investing in work in order to avoid thinking about
| the painful aspects of life.
| punkspider wrote:
| I think your comment made something click and it may just
| change my life. I'll try stick to being mindful of what you
| said:
|
| > The curses of the human condition are anxiety and regret, the
| conditions that render people unable to engage in the present
| moment. The former is characterised as being stuck in the
| future psychologically, and the latter is being stuck in the
| past. Since neither the future or the past can be changed by
| obsessive thoughts in the present, these psychological
| conditions are a recipe for unhappiness, because happiness can
| only ever happen in the present moment, which is lost.
|
| Hopefully it will have a positive effect on how I approach
| things, since anxiety/regret are the main things that affect my
| work, I believe.
|
| We'll see.
|
| In any case, even if there's no noticeable effect in the near
| future, I'm very happy I stumbled across your comment. Thank
| you very much!
| KineticLensman wrote:
| > The spider weaves its web in perfect concentration
|
| I don't think you can equate the mental capabilities of a human
| in flow state with a spider following a set of instincts (hard-
| wired neural processes / behaviours). I'm not aware of any
| evidence that spiders can engage in any abstract thoughts about
| their web.
| meowkit wrote:
| I wouldn't equate them either, but its a nice comparison. I
| like the idea that my cat is constantly in a flow except when
| hungry haha.
|
| Flow state comes about when skill and challenge are
| maximized. There is an element of perception of both those
| axis which plays into it. Since we don't know what the
| perceptions of non humans are its going to be hard to know if
| they experience any type of flow.
|
| https://www.researchgate.net/figure/Model-of-the-flow-
| state-...
| rubicon33 wrote:
| > Flow state comes about when skill and challenge are
| maximized.
|
| This is why I so rarely experience flow state. Programming
| is largely about learning new things. Whether its new
| programming languages, new libraries, new platforms, new
| build tools, or even just new software domains.
|
| I've been a developer for close to 15 years and the
| learning never stops. It's a rare week / month where I get
| to just relax and code something that I've done before, or,
| at least have enough tangential skill to enter into a flow
| state where I'm not constantly looking up documentation,
| trying things, pouring over logs, trying more things, etc.
| KineticLensman wrote:
| > I like the idea that my cat is constantly in a flow
| except when hungry haha.
|
| Alternatively, one could argue that 'sprint' predators like
| cheetah and Peregrine falcons are in flow-state when
| hunting (i.e. hungry) and in a non-flow state when resting
| between hunts / kills. Considering Peregrines, outside
| breeding season, they might only spend a few minutes flying
| per day and are then happy to perch on a secluded branch
| until they need to venture out again for their next kill.
| If there is a flow/non-flow distinction (and you are right,
| we may never know), I'd conjecture that flow starts when
| hunger exceeds a certain threshold and finishes when the
| bird is fed.
|
| Edit: I work with different types of raptors and can
| confirm that they vary significantly in their mental
| capabilities. Owls have relatively small brains because
| their skulls are full of eye and they are not easily
| trainable, compared with say a Caracara [0], which to my
| mind is the bird equivalent of a racoon: smart and pesky. I
| can imagine a Caracara having a greater flow/non-flow
| distinction compared with an Owl which is much more
| instinct-driven.
|
| [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crested_caracara
| Kon5ole wrote:
| Your comment really clarified some vague ideas I've been
| thinking about lately. I found it inspiring. Thanks for writing
| it!
| cagenut wrote:
| hi i mostly liked your thought trail there, but if you've ever
| adopted a shelter dog they most definitely regret the past
| (they clearly experience nightmares)
| mkr-hn wrote:
| A relative got a dog from what was obviously an unqualified
| breeder. The dog was always anxious, distressed, waiting at
| the window. One day I pet him on the back without making sure
| he heard me coming. He nipped me in panic, then ran and hid.
| It was obvious he thought I was going to hit him for it. And
| since I would _never_ , that must have been from a past
| experience.
|
| I think he was actually dissociating since I sat there with
| him for about 10 minutes and he didn't move at all, just
| stared off into a wall. He finally snapped out of it and
| accepted one (1) headpat.
| playpause wrote:
| I think trauma is different. It's more like scar tissue in
| your psyche, caused by a specific event but affecting the
| shape of your thoughts and inclinations in general. Regret is
| conscious reflection on past mistakes, imagining how things
| could have been, etc. A bad experience can lead to regret, or
| trauma, or both, or neither.
| wombatmobile wrote:
| That's a thoughtful, considered observation, that adds plenty
| to this discussion. Your comment is a positive exemplar of
| the application of the human neocortex.
| joegahona wrote:
| How do you know what they're having is nightmares?
| bittercynic wrote:
| My dog (who spent about 3 months in a shelter) sometimes
| "talks in his sleep", making sounds like he is
| scared/stressed about something. Other times he makes
| happier sounds while sleeping. It seems pretty clear that
| he's experiencing a range of emotions in his dreams, but I
| don't think it necessarily means reliving specific events.
| pmoriarty wrote:
| _" The spider weaves its web in perfect concentration, not
| stopping to contemplate, plan, or exercise executive
| judgement."_
|
| This reminds me of reading about researchers feeding spiders
| flies laced with various drugs and observing how they weaved
| their webs:
|
| https://i.pinimg.com/originals/b1/aa/ff/b1aaff36806e72cf2862...
| RichardHeart wrote:
| Awesome comment.
| bavila wrote:
| > Since neither the future or the past can be changed by
| obsessive thoughts in the present...
|
| Is this really true, though?
|
| The past certainly cannot be changed, but the future is not set
| in stone. If I spend my time obsessively thinking about what
| kind of person I want to be, what kind of career I want to
| have, or what sort of companion I want to have in life, then it
| seems reasonable that these thoughts will lead me to pursue
| different courses of action than I would have pursued had I
| _not_ spent all this time in such ruminations. And, ideally,
| such thoughts should lead to better future outcomes, if the
| actions born from such thoughts are well-reasoned. Granted,
| this may not necessarily be the case in all circumstances, and
| an excess in obsessions may potentially lead to detrimental
| outcomes. But I think our ability to feel anxiety can be a
| blessing, not just a curse, when we work through our anxieties
| carefully and productively.
| teddyh wrote:
| > _The past certainly cannot be changed_
|
| Sure it can. Oceania has always been at war with Eastasia.
|
| This is because _the past does not exist_ , as Alan Watts
| described.
| wpietri wrote:
| For me the dividing line is in how productive the thought is.
| If the thought leads to new understanding and behavioral
| change, I'd call neither regret nor worry obsessive.
|
| That said, there's a bit of a definitional trick being played
| here by most people. In the just-released "The Tomorrow War",
| one character is portrayed as irritatingly obsessive about a
| science topic. Their detailed knowledge turns out to be
| useful later, at which point respect for him is portrayed.
| The judgment criteria shift in retrospect, even though the
| behavior is the same.
|
| A darker example comes from "Maus", a memoir about a Jew who
| barely escaped Nazi Germany. His pre-escape behavior in
| abstract could easily be described as obsessively worried.
| But in practice, the ones who were more "reasonable" went
| into the ovens.
|
| My takeaway from this is that apparently maladaptive behavior
| is often just adaptive to a different environment. That's
| certainly my experience.
| CarelessExpert wrote:
| This is honestly one of the few things I miss having moved into
| management after coding for the first 12 years of my career. I
| actually don't miss the coding itself much (though I still do a
| bit of it as a hobby). But that feeling of working on one problem
| for hours at a time, wholly absorbed. There really is something
| amazing about it.
| hi41 wrote:
| Don't tasks such as project planning, resource allocation,
| coordinating with people in team meetings let you get into a
| flow state?
| lordnacho wrote:
| No, you don't feel like you are accomplishing something
| difficult. I've been on both sides, coding and managing
| coders. To the extent that the team is doing something
| difficult, there's often no specific point that is "job
| done".
|
| When you're coding, there's a specific thing that you're
| trying to do that gives a certain satisfaction: there are
| stages of completeness that you hit (eg all the tests pass)
| which feel like natural checkpoints. Passing them makes you
| feel good. You struggle with nature, you prevail, you feel
| good. Before you did your thing it was broken, now it is
| fixed.
|
| When you're arranging stuff for a team, the actual thing
| you're doing doesn't provide satisfaction in the same way.
| Arranging meetings, setting goals, that sort of thing is a
| softer level of completeness. For one, there's no real
| failure: the meeting will happen sooner or later, the goals
| are kinda obvious even though they are vague (grow revenues,
| make a roadmap). You can't mess this up, so you can't
| succeed. Yes there are reckonings when you're a manager, but
| they're not little ones that come every day on a timescale of
| a few hours.
|
| With flow you need to feel like the thing you're doing is
| challenging. You need to be strong to break your PB in
| weightlifting. You need to be smart to fix that bug. There's
| nothing in powerpointing a slide deck where you are
| challenging yourself, it's mostly grind.
| binkHN wrote:
| Yes, but, for me, it's no where near the same. When coding, I
| feel like I'm very heavily leveraging working memory in my
| brain and, at times, this becomes almost zen like. I don't
| get this way with project planning.
| solipsism wrote:
| I'm not the OP but I couldn't agree more with them.
|
| To answer your question... no they don't. Or perhaps very,
| very rarely. It doesn't make sense to spend hours at a time
| on any of those tasks, and you can't anyway because someone
| always needs something from you.
| rehto21 wrote:
| You can't hack flow. You definitely cannot aim for mindfulness.
| All these are classic cart-before-the-horse conditions. Such
| flawed notions may sell books, but they don't resolve inner
| conflicts.
|
| There's a paradox at the heart of this that is difficult to grasp
| but is true nonetheless.
|
| Joshu asked Nansen: What is the path?
|
| Nansen replied: Your everyday mind is the path.
|
| Joshu: How does one attain it?
|
| Nansen: When you try to attain you fail.
| quickthrower2 wrote:
| You can encourage flow though. Turn off slack and outlook is a
| great start.
|
| I find I normally get into flow more easily with a pressure
| washer and dirty floor than with code!
|
| The other one is when I've "Ubered myself" to a destination,
| driving on autopilot.
| smusamashah wrote:
| I read on HN that flow is achieved when work is only upto a
| certain level of difficulty for you. Flow is achieved because you
| can create comfortably and still feel like working through a
| challenge. If it's easier it doesn't feel like a challenge
| anymore, more difficult and it puts you out of the zone.
| pitaj wrote:
| Effort + competence.
| sn41 wrote:
| Yes, this is the theme of the work by Mihaly Csikszentmihalyi.
| I have even thought it somewhat similar to the state of mind
| that Cal Newport tries to promote in his book "Deep Work".
| smackeyacky wrote:
| I'm not sure that is universal. I can lose myself in mechanical
| rote work, or lose myself in technical research, flow doesn't
| necessarily stop on a switch of focus if the end goal remains
| in sight.
| haunter wrote:
| >He wondered how wealth fit into the happiness equation, but the
| data suggested money wasn't the answer; beyond a certain, basic
| threshold, increases in income hardly affected well-being.
|
| Yet the majority of Earth's population can never reach that
| certain threshold.
| chrisweekly wrote:
| Yeah. Money can't make you happy, but debt can make you
| miserable.
| vmception wrote:
| I think people are debating the wrong question. Happiness?
| Well-being?
|
| It seems to function more like oxygen. You know when you
| don't have it and your priorities shift completely to
| constantly dealing with that. You want an unlimited, self
| perpetuating supply so that you never think about it.
| dmje wrote:
| What's interesting about Flow to me is that on the face of it
| it's the exact opposite of mindfulness. As a meditation teacher,
| I've learnt that meditative spaces are those where you are
| concentrating fully on the moment, and your thoughts in that
| moment. The specific scientific basis for this is activation of
| your PNS and suppression of your SNS.
|
| As a musician, I also understand extremely well the Flow state,
| or "being in the zone" as us muso's call it.
|
| The two states are similarly euphoric and blend many traits, but
| they seem very different in attention terms. Fascinating stuff.
| oytis wrote:
| > But I can remember accessing a state resembling flow only a few
| times; the vast majority of the hours I spend writing are closer
| to a grind than a trance. With any project, there are so many
| variables I can't predict. Will my sources respond? Does the
| information I seek exist? Will someone send me a text starting
| 'OMG' to take me away from my focus?
|
| This resonates a lot. I never understood why people in software
| talk about flow so much. For me completing a challenging task
| always means oscillating between several pieces of documentation
| and jumping between various places in the code to understand the
| interconnections and where the task naturally belongs. There is
| hardly any flow there, and a lot of decision making.
|
| Then when I want what I'm going to write, it's almost mechanical,
| I can complete it with various degree of focus, but even when I'm
| focused, it's definitely closer to "mindfulness" than to "flow"
| because it lacks challenge - all the challenge was about deciding
| what and how has to be done.
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