[HN Gopher] Kind Engineering [video]
       ___________________________________________________________________
        
       Kind Engineering [video]
        
       Author : thejokersthief
       Score  : 90 points
       Date   : 2021-07-02 12:05 UTC (1 days ago)
        
 (HTM) web link (www.usenix.org)
 (TXT) w3m dump (www.usenix.org)
        
       | andrey_utkin wrote:
       | Q: How to be kind? A: To not be aggressive.
       | 
       | The problem is, depending on the environment and personal
       | positions, kindness isn't necessarily the most useful option, and
       | even if everyone likes it, kindness doesn't necessarily sustain
       | itself.
       | 
       | The most important new information about aggression I've got in
       | years is from Prof. Robert Sapolsky's lectures on Human
       | Behavioral Biology. Mind blowing, totally recommend you watch it
       | on Youtube.
       | 
       | In the conclusion to his 4-lecture series on the subject of
       | aggression (https://youtu.be/BqP4_4kr7-0?t=6081), he says:
       | 
       | We have this general notion that if we are rational, if we are
       | learned, if we are scholarly, if we respect thoughts and truth
       | and all of that, we will make the world a better place.
       | 
       | All of us who are professorial have somewhere in there this
       | totally ridiculous belief that if you're allowed to lecture at a
       | subject long enough, it will give up and go away. And that will
       | be the cure for the world aggression. If everybody could be
       | lectured to about the frontal cortex, it will solve world
       | violence. But the basic problem is that aggression is such a
       | messy set of behaviors.
       | 
       | Schizophrenia - no question about it, bad news. Alzheimer's
       | disease, childhood cancer, global warming, all of these
       | unassailably bad news. But aggression is a whole lot more
       | complicated, because of that point where we started with, which
       | is, the same exact behaviors, and depending on the context, it
       | could be something that would get a medal for someone, someone
       | you will want to mate with, vote for, reward, cheer on, join in.
       | And in another setting, it is the most frightening thing that can
       | happen to us. And it's the same behaviors in all those cases.
       | 
       | And it's for that reason, that violence is going to be the
       | hardest subject for us to understand biologically. And it's for
       | that reason, that it's always going to be the one we have to try
       | hardest to understand.
        
         | jes wrote:
         | I fully agree with you on the value of Robert Sapolsky's video
         | series on HBB.
        
         | zerop wrote:
         | Aggression is also important in certain scenario when it
         | demands. The problem is when it's expected in everything you
         | do. If aggression and obsessions are part of your everyday
         | that's when it becomes problem and one starts feeling need for
         | kindness.
         | 
         | Good video out there.
        
         | vincent-toups wrote:
         | I'm not sure that I buy you're assertion that kindness is
         | either necessarily or sufficiently described by a lack of
         | aggression per se.
         | 
         | Kindness is maybe better described by keeping the the inner
         | life of your fellow beings in the forefront of your mind and
         | treating them with respect relative to that inner life and your
         | own hopefully well though out ethical frame. I can certainly
         | see how that would often limit the amount of aggression you
         | would employ but I see that as a secondary effect.
        
       | grouphugs wrote:
       | kindness is largely earned. a lot of folks just really don't
       | deserve it. especially some 4ch piece of shit that's going around
       | on a harassment rampage because they started a campaign to
       | "toughen" people up with sexual abuse and sexual harassment
       | because they think people are too "sensitive"
        
       | mdoms wrote:
       | I often wonder what it is about the software profession that
       | brings this stuff out. Is it that very sensitive people are more
       | likely to be drawn to software? Or is it that software industry
       | culture breeds this kind of thing?
       | 
       | I have friends across many different industries, from government
       | housing to tourism to accounting to logistics to teaching to
       | rubbish collection. None of them would dare talk about "kindness
       | engineering", "psychological safety" or any of these kinds of
       | topics at work. They come in at 8, do their work and go home at
       | 5.
       | 
       | Every workplace has assholes, highly empathetic people, drones
       | and whiners to varying ratios. That's just human beings.
       | 
       | Sometimes it feels to me like some corners of the software
       | industry have been co-opted by self-help gurus (styled as
       | "happiness engineers" or whatever title they conjure up) because
       | frankly it's a lucrative industry and they've spotted a good
       | target.
        
         | groby_b wrote:
         | We're an expensive industry, where treating people like dirt
         | turns out to cost a _lot_ of money.
         | 
         | And so we're one of the few industries where treating people
         | with respect is actually of interest to leadership. Due to a
         | still-lingering belief in Taylorism and an educational
         | environment that's suboptimal, we're still burdened with a lot
         | of people who think fear-based management ("they wouldn't dare
         | talk about X" is about the fear of speaking up) is useful, so
         | we keep needing to teach people that this doesn't really work.
         | 
         | The idea that "all workplaces have assholes" assumes that
         | somehow being an asshole is an immutable quality. For the vast
         | majority of people, it isn't. They've been trained via fear and
         | obedience, and they believe it's the way to results. Teaching
         | them that it isn't helps both get them on a better path, and it
         | makes the overall environment better. Maybe we can't get
         | completely rid of people with negative traits, but we _can_
         | shift ratios.
         | 
         | Yes, there are some people who revel in being an asshole, or
         | just can't change. They're very few. It's worth helping the
         | rest. (Because training somebody is _much_ cheaper than
         | replacing them)
        
       | drewcoo wrote:
       | I made it about 10 minutes through the video of someone telling
       | me what I needed to do without telling me why. Basically it was
       | all "be cheerfully compliant!"
       | 
       | It would be wonderful if "software engineers" just had some code
       | of ethics like actual engineers instead of having to invent this
       | self help dreck. But I suppose that wouldn't be "disruptive."
       | 
       | Example:
       | https://www.ieee.org/about/corporate/governance/p7-8.html
        
         | joshtynjala wrote:
         | When I was attending university, one of my professors pointed
         | out the ACM code of ethics: https://ethics.acm.org/
        
       | noduerme wrote:
       | I've worked for a lot of unsympathetic people who didn't put
       | themselves in my shoes, or who had their own personal issues that
       | caused them to tonelessly say degrading things to me as a young
       | coder. But I was lucky enough - or sympathetic enough - to get
       | through to them _as their employee_ with questions that made them
       | see _me_ as someone they could help and improve. This wasn 't
       | even their choice; it was mine, to tease those explanations out
       | of them. I sure wish most employers and corporate structures had
       | this sort of kindness in mind, but on an individual level it
       | really comes down to forming a co-sympathetic relationship (as an
       | employee). Now as a boss, I find myself extremely sympathetic to
       | anyone who asks intelligent questions, but very short on the fuse
       | with people who don't take the time to look things up for
       | themselves. Is that me becoming more of an asshole with age? Or
       | is it that I put myself through the process and I expect others
       | to as well?
        
         | username90 wrote:
         | Most of the time when someone ask a question answering it isn't
         | very easy. You have to look things up, go through the code,
         | maybe run some test to figure out what the solution is. That is
         | how you work with the code and that is what they need to do to
         | work in the code.
         | 
         | The problem here is that they expect that answering would be
         | easy for you, but it is not, so you tell them to go figure out
         | themselves since you don't have the time to do all that work
         | for them every time they get "stuck". Since in fact, you
         | yourself are "stuck" like that every day, being "stuck" is a
         | major part of being a software engineer, it never ever goes
         | away and junior engineers often thinks that being "stuck" is
         | bad. It really isn't, that is what your life will be from now
         | on, you just got to learn how to handle being stuck and nobody
         | can really teach you that.
         | 
         | Anyway, when you dragged the answer out of those other people
         | you did the work to unstuck yourself. Those people couldn't
         | just have told you the answer from the start since they didn't
         | know until after the long discussion with you, that discussion
         | was the work. Now that you are on the other side you get a lot
         | of "unintelligent" questions, ie questions you can't easily
         | answer, and therefore feel frustrated with these new engineers.
         | It has nothing to do with kindness, its just that the junior
         | engineers needs to understand that finding the answers to these
         | questions is their job and not something that just juniors have
         | to deal with.
         | 
         | Example with overly simple question:
         | 
         | Junior: How do I center a div in html?
         | 
         | Senior: Just look it up on Google.
         | 
         | Junior: Why can't you just tell me?
         | 
         | Senior: I just told you how to do it, that is what I do every
         | time I need to center a div!
        
           | intrepidhero wrote:
           | I agree and want to add a few thoughts.
           | 
           | I've found the best way out of these kinds of questions,
           | where the asker hasn't put in even the lowest level of effort
           | is to say, "I don't know, but here's what I would do first to
           | figure it out." Most people will be glad to find out there is
           | a path forward and take it themselves. If they're not willing
           | to pick it up there and do the thing you've suggested then
           | you are dealing with someone who doesn't value your time and
           | setting a boundary is the right thing to do. The kind way to
           | respond at that point is simply, "I'm sorry I don't have time
           | to figure this out right now. You can try [the thing I
           | suggested] and come back if you still have questions."
           | 
           | The crux here is there is no kind way to just make people go
           | away. If your role is mentoring, and any of us with
           | experience should be in that role at least a little, then
           | some of your time is going to be spent on this interaction.
           | The most valuable thing you can do for yourself, the other
           | person and the company is lead them toward finding the answer
           | themselves. That's going to require a balance of helping and
           | honestly and kindly saying no to doing their work for them.
           | Not easy.
        
         | spikej wrote:
         | "I put myself through the process and I expect others to as
         | well". Resonates with me. I expect people to at least process
         | things to a degree on their own so that we can have an
         | intelligible conversation.
        
         | crispyambulance wrote:
         | > Is that me becoming more of an asshole with age?
         | 
         | Sort of, but I don't mean that in a bad way!
         | 
         | Many of us experience rough times coming to terms with how to
         | function in an organization and how to develop professionally.
         | In my opinion, after that experience becomes internalized we
         | end up behaving in various different ways when the tables are
         | turned and we become "part of the landscape" for newcomers.
         | 
         | Some people believe that others must face the same challenges
         | they had, that suffering is not only inevitable but required as
         | part of the path to mastery. It's very much like a Calvinistic
         | way of thinking where people must prove themselves worthy
         | before they are given consideration in the eyes of god (or in
         | the case of a workplace, senior practitioners). I think of this
         | as "the stackoverflow" approach. It helps people out because it
         | forces the student to formulate valid questions and uses reward
         | or punishment as incentives.
         | 
         | Others, seem to model their behavior in an opposite way. They
         | remember the confusion they experienced and strive to help out
         | the newcomer. They try to provide some measure of "guard rails"
         | so the newcomer doesn't have to crash and burn as much as they
         | did. These people tend to take the "answering" of questions
         | more seriously, and often end up asking questions to the
         | student instead of just answering, evaluating their responses,
         | and then asking more questions. This is like a Socratic
         | approach and it challenges the student to come up with their
         | own answers. It ALSO works.
         | 
         | Which of these is correct? Neither (or both). They're just ways
         | of responding and everyone has encountered both modes and
         | probably behaves in either way depending on the situation. Some
         | of us have personalities that naturally tend towards one or the
         | other.
         | 
         | I think that whatever approach is taken, it is super important
         | to not dismiss the student. People do need encouragement, not
         | necessarily with every interaction, but they need to know it's
         | OK to "not know" and that their suffering is something we all
         | experience. This helps to create a sense of psychological
         | safety.
        
         | specialist wrote:
         | > _...it really comes down to forming a co-sympathetic
         | relationship..._
         | 
         | Trust?
         | 
         | Young me was told that trust was crucial to effective
         | management, high performance teams. Ok. How to do that? What
         | does that look or feel like?
         | 
         | I've had exactly one trustful peer relationship. People used to
         | joke that we acted like a married couple. We have no idea why
         | we just clicked. We accomplished so much, worked so hard, had
         | so much fun. Sadly, once you experience authentic trust, any
         | thing short of that just feels like a waste of time.
         | 
         | I've trusted maybe 2 of my many bosses.
         | 
         | You'd have to ask my direct reports if any of them trusted me.
         | I hope some would say "yes".
         | 
         | --
         | 
         | Older me reflecting back on all this stuff...
         | 
         | I had hoped life would be more win-win, a la Robert Wright's
         | book Nonzero. But it was mostly transactional relationships,
         | power dynamics, zero sum games (win-lose), so much energy
         | wasted on guarding my boundaries, and then getting exploited
         | whenever I didn't.
         | 
         | Basically, it all sucks.
        
           | sdwr wrote:
           | Could you say more about that trustful relationship? How did
           | it start, did you have similar backgrounds, was it work-
           | focused or get into personal stuff? Signs to look for/ aim
           | towards for people who aspire to meaningful, trusting
           | relationships.
        
             | specialist wrote:
             | I'll try to be brief.
             | 
             | Mid-90s. Mid-sized company. Very engineering driven.
             | Founder President was unteachable, largely absent, prone to
             | drive-by management (disruption). VP of Sales was a
             | complete dink ("All I want is free, perfect, done
             | yesterday. Is that too much to ask?"). "Visionary" VP of
             | Engineering with goal of being Director or better at
             | Microsoft, most of his time building a fiefdom, protected
             | his power by encouraging infighting. Tech Support was very
             | powerful and in open rebellion.
             | 
             | I got things done. Mostly by being a bulldozer. Not
             | popular. Eventually promoted to Engineering Manager over a
             | suite of products. I was very interested in empowerment,
             | process, execution, shipping products customers wanted.
             | Major influences were Luke Hohmann, Deming, Eli Goldratt,
             | and so on.
             | 
             | I had a crazy notion: instead of engineering dominance,
             | model team after quality circles (a la Ford Motors) and the
             | US Constitution's balance of powers. So initially,
             | Marketing role would own scope and price, Engineering would
             | own cost and schedule, Quality Assurance would own
             | releases. Eventually expanded to include Sales, Tech
             | Support, Docs & I18N.
             | 
             | Through pure luck I got paired with a skilled Marketing
             | person, who also had domain expertise, first time doing
             | software. She wanted to learn "software" and I wanted to
             | learn "marketing". So we taught each other, mostly by
             | example and answering questions.
             | 
             | Empowering QA assurance was a lot more troubled. Wonderful
             | person, we got along very well. But she struggled to
             | balance my way of doing things with how her peers (and
             | their teams) were doing SQA. In a nutshell, I wanted her to
             | be in charge, whereas her peers were stuck in Kem Kaner's
             | mentality of victimhood and self-disempowerment. For
             | example, I insisted we have our own test lab, she balked
             | when her peers insisted on a shared lab run by the test
             | group. In other words, I wanted a product & team focused
             | org chart, and the rest of the company wanted to keep
             | functional silos.
             | 
             | [Per the E-Myth's advice, I served the role until I could
             | hire someone. So I did my own thing. Think "The Joel Test"
             | and Code Complete, back when that stuff was controversial.
             | The lightest weight ticket tracking system. Automated
             | builds and testing. Front loading as much work as possible
             | (eg always have a shippable product instead of Big Bang
             | integration at the end). I say to show I took SQA very
             | seriously and walked the talk.]
             | 
             | --
             | 
             | So the way that it played out, my Marketing Manager and I
             | were on the same page. Meaning she could speak on behalf of
             | both of us. She could make decisions without my input. She
             | was savvy enough to know when I'd want to be in the loop.
             | And vice-versa. In turn I went to trade shows, met with
             | dealers and customers, and interacted with Marketing and
             | Sales (in her absence) as her ambassador. We prepped each
             | other, took notes, then debriefed.
             | 
             | I didn't have that relationship with my QA Manager, much as
             | we tried. And we tried. Despite a great personal
             | relationship, work wise we just ground gears.
             | 
             | When I switched to another team, to bring another troubled
             | product back from the dead, my team was eager for my
             | replacement, who was "nice" and very well liked.
             | 
             | New guy promptly disempowered everyone, threw away all of
             | the team's processes (eg speed triage), became the sole
             | gatekeeper (aka control freak), morale tanked, releases
             | stalled.
             | 
             | About 3 months later my former SQA manager took me to
             | lunch, told me she finally grokked what I was trying to do,
             | and that she'd rather work her ass off shipping product
             | with an asshole like me than be a drone working for a nice
             | guy.
             | 
             | Bittersweet.
             | 
             | As for the people who worked for me, my job was to protect
             | them, do whatever it takes to help them succeed. Most did
             | great. Some excelled. Others were total time sinks, causing
             | endless heart ache. Like I said previously, you'd have to
             | ask them if any of them trusted me.
             | 
             | The managers I trusted treated me the same way. Just tell
             | me what needs to be done, remove any blockers, help me stay
             | on track. That's happened only 2 or 3 times. Everyone else
             | needed constant upward managing, or worse.
        
               | sdwr wrote:
               | Thank you!
        
             | rawgabbit wrote:
             | Not the parent.
             | 
             | I have noticed there are two kinds of trust relationships.
             | The first is pure office politics. You have long term
             | creditability, therefore everyone knows not to try their
             | manipulative tactics on you, engage with you
             | professionally, and therefore you have a trust
             | relationship. This is akin to being a made man.
             | 
             | The second kind of trust relationship I have encountered
             | are with very religious devout people who believe they are
             | doing God's will to help others and with people who have
             | sense of humor that builds people up not take them down.
             | They don't take themselves too seriously and just want do a
             | good job and get along with everyone.
        
           | rawgabbit wrote:
           | My experience is the same. As a young engineer I got things
           | to work on time and with minimal issues. My reward for being
           | good at my job is to be loaded up with work from my boss and
           | by my peers and even by those who were outside of my team.
           | When I refused because I said I have my priorities. I was
           | called out for not being a team player. I once even had a
           | come to Jesus meeting by someone who was not my boss for
           | refusing to work on his emergency ticket. This tech lead who
           | was on another team was later forced to apologize to me.
           | 
           | Essentially there are two classes of people. Those who want
           | to master their craft and develop their skills. And those who
           | think their job is boss around others and that other people
           | exist to make their life easier. I have noticed this sense of
           | entitlement is especially common among younger engineers who
           | think I owe it to them to mentor them. Hmm. I don't owe you
           | anything.
        
         | elcapitan wrote:
         | I think it's fine as long as both sides are aware of the
         | expectations. But managing those expectations might be better
         | suited to a manager position, rather than the senior/junior
         | developers actually involved in it. The job of a manager is to
         | enable people to do their job.
        
           | 0xbadcafebee wrote:
           | The job of any person whose output other people depend on is
           | to enable those people to do their jobs.
           | 
           | A junior software developer's job is to enable customers to
           | do their jobs (as customers). An architect's job is to enable
           | developers, sysadmins, etc to do their jobs. We are all part
           | of a team, and we all depend on each other.
        
             | elcapitan wrote:
             | "do their job as customers" yeah that totally doesn't sound
             | like bullshit :D
        
         | 0xbadcafebee wrote:
         | It's an indicator of a lack of empathy, which can come from
         | many places. You need to find empathy for those people who
         | don't take the time, and barring that, compassionately help
         | _them_ reach an empathy for you and others they might be
         | frustrating.
         | 
         | I have a short fuse any time I think people aren't helping
         | their coworkers or don't put in the work so others can do their
         | jobs, and it's making other people quite frustrated. For me it
         | comes from a couple places (perfectionism, ego, self-criticism,
         | differing priorities). I'm still struggling with it, and I'm
         | very lucky my boss is very understanding.
        
           | rawgabbit wrote:
           | I don't agree. People are hired to do a job. If they can't do
           | a job because they don't have the skills and must depend on
           | someone else to help them, they should not have been hired in
           | the first place. This has nothing to do with empathy. This is
           | common sense. If you can't do the job, why are you here?
        
             | musingsole wrote:
             | > If you can't do the job, why are you here?
             | 
             | Because you're the best the company could find and afford
             | to get into the position to maybe fix the problem.
             | Lamenting an unskilled workforce or not having the perfect
             | developer for a given task is just professional
             | entitlement.
             | 
             | Your job is to work with the team and the resources you
             | have. Why are you daydreaming about things you don't?
        
               | thrower123 wrote:
               | There's often an issue where people do not make any
               | progress towards becoming useful, and do not show any
               | promise of being capable of becoming a net contributor.
               | 
               | At this point, you can fire them, silo them off the
               | critical path, move them into other work, or just keep
               | jamming a square peg in a round hole. But it wears on the
               | people who have to take up the slack and do, or re-do,
               | that person's work.
        
               | rawgabbit wrote:
               | I get things done with the team I hired. I don't hire
               | people who can't do their jobs and question those who
               | hired them.
        
             | hluska wrote:
             | Common sense suggests that > 95% of companies don't have
             | access to the highest grade of engineers. If we work for
             | companies like that, our job is to work within the system
             | and get shit done. That often means being kind and
             | mentoring.
        
         | agumonkey wrote:
         | > Or is it that I put myself through the process and I expect
         | others to as well?
         | 
         | I have no answer for sure but I've seen this pattern in just
         | about every aspect of life. Older people who did X are very
         | very angry if younger guys refrain to do X
        
       | bjt2n3904 wrote:
       | I can't bring myself to watch the video. "Kindness Engineering"
       | just radiates Orwellian vibes. People aren't being "kind" enough,
       | and so we're going to apply scientific processes to people to
       | "engineer" "kindness".
       | 
       | What a sinister title.
       | 
       | Doing a quick jog through the video...
       | 
       | - "Be yourself, because who you are is brilliant..."
       | 
       | - Psychological safety
       | 
       | - No blame
       | 
       | What a load of toxic advice. Engineering is not an affirmation
       | cult.
       | 
       | I have the feeling that we got to this place by putting the sum
       | of our existence into our git commits. And if people criticize
       | your git commits, they're criticizing your existence, and this is
       | "harmful", so we need to engineer "psychological safety" into our
       | engineering reviews.
       | 
       | The real psychologically unsafe practice is making your code the
       | sum of your existence. Accept that you can fail as an engineer,
       | and still have worth as a person. That's the solution, not
       | "kindness engineering".
        
         | topkai22 wrote:
         | I read the deck not the videos, but their is a section on
         | "nice" versus "kind" slice that is the complete opposite of
         | your straw man. Direct feedback about your work that covers
         | both the good and the bad is considered kind and encouraged.
         | 
         | In fact, psychological safety is what creates an environment
         | where actions and decisions can be discussed and critiqued
         | rationally rather than emotionally. The blameless part is
         | shorthand for focusing on the system rather then the person.
         | After all, if Alice took down production by modifying a config
         | file she thought was on the dev environment it makes far less
         | sense to focus on blaming Alice did versus discussing why
         | someone was able to modify production without appropriate
         | checks in place.
         | 
         | The "bring the whole person" and "be yourself" concepts need
         | work though. There are fair number of people I know who I
         | really would not want to just "be themselves" at work.
         | 
         | edit-- minor typo
        
           | acituan wrote:
           | > I read the deck not the videos, but their is a section on
           | "nice" versus "kind" slice that is the complete opposite of
           | your straw man
           | 
           | Thanks for drawing attention to the existence of the slide
           | deck, that was much more easier to read than the video.
           | 
           | I think I understand why OP is reacting to the word "kind",
           | it is a bit of a misleading branding, and the content is also
           | not exactly coherent about it. There is an extra emphasis on
           | considering the other persons' reception of the
           | communication, but then there is an inclusion of assertive
           | communication as you've pointed out. A more realistic title
           | would have been "how to work and communicate effectively".
           | 
           | > In fact, psychological safety is what creates an
           | environment where actions and decisions can be discussed and
           | critiqued rationally rather than emotionally.
           | 
           | Again I think the connotations of term is problematic, in
           | comparison to your pretty good of an explanation of what it
           | should be about. After all psychological safety depends on
           | the other side's psychology, so for a narcissist that would
           | mean actually not threatening their myth of personal
           | superiority, and bringing rationality to discussion would not
           | necessarily be comfortable for them.
           | 
           | I think a much better approach can be considered through
           | virtue ethics. There is no being fair to the other people
           | while not being fair to ourselves. So there is a golden mean
           | between giving consideration to their point of view vs.
           | requesting consideration for our own point of view and there
           | is no algorithmic approach that can find that point for us.
           | We can't get lost in emotional contagion with the other
           | persons' feelings (think of a surgeon unable to operate a kid
           | because they are empathizing too much), just like we can't
           | get lost in our own feelings (every callous, bullying manager
           | or lead we've encountered).
           | 
           | Also "engineering" kindness sounds very objectifying and
           | manipulative. Please do not engineer me, I am a human. Tell
           | me the good reasons to be kind, and let me decide for myself.
           | If being kind is "good", people would naturally take it up.
        
             | aaron-santos wrote:
             | Disclosure: I read the slides, but have not watched the
             | video.
             | 
             | What the author is doing is disentangling accountability
             | and support. The nice-kind distinction is reminiscent of
             | the permissive-restorative distinction in the social
             | discipline window[1]. This disentangling into a 2x2 sets
             | the stage for analyzing feedback.
             | 
             | [1] https://workplaceconflict.ca/wp-content/uploads/Social-
             | Disci...
        
               | acituan wrote:
               | Fantastic way of putting it, thanks.
        
             | bjt2n3904 wrote:
             | You say the things I want to say, but can't find the words.
             | Thank you.
             | 
             | Your paragraph on virtue ethics is perfect. This is exactly
             | what should be taught, and is being replaced with "Kindness
             | Engineering".
        
           | bjt2n3904 wrote:
           | I've never considered a good code review to be "kind" -- and
           | I don't think much will change that.
           | 
           | Helping an old lady cross the street. Buying a friend a
           | coffee and listening to their troubles. That is kindness: an
           | ethical consideration for others, and a pleasant disposition.
           | 
           | It's absolutely essential to have design reviews be rational,
           | and to untangle complicated emotions. The reason flight
           | travel is so safe today is because of these principles --
           | crash reviews are not about assigning blame, but finding the
           | cause of the crash to prevent further loss of life. But
           | "kindness" does not come into play here, and introducing it
           | will create problems, not solve them.
           | 
           | I agree with you, that the "bring the whole person" and "be
           | yourself" part is unrelated good engineering practices. But
           | these are the grounding framework of "psychological safety",
           | which puts the responsibility for my well being in your
           | hands. That's a responsibility that no one can (or should)
           | bear.
        
             | [deleted]
        
             | throwaways885 wrote:
             | I think you're conflating kindness and niceness. People are
             | nice to protect the feelings of others, whereas kindness
             | has a more logical component, e.g. being honest when the
             | truth can hurt. You can be kind without being nice. But I
             | believe you're right that people need to take their
             | emotions out of their work.
        
             | 0xbadcafebee wrote:
             | Most of what we do, including _writing code_ , is not
             | rational. We are emotional beings with heuristics. You make
             | irrational decisions in your code all the time. Hell - the
             | fact that your code doesn't come along with a formal proof
             | is evidence of irrationality; do you think the code you
             | hand-crafted doesn't have bugs?
             | 
             | Kindness is a tool we use to accomplish work with other
             | emotional irrational beings. The NTSB crash investigations
             | wouldn't work without kindness. You can't run around asking
             | insensitive rude questions in an insanely
             | important/sensitive situation and expect to get
             | cooperation! We are all responsible for each other whether
             | we like it or not, and our ability to work together we'll
             | hinges upon good relationships, which among other things,
             | depends on whether we're kind to each other.
        
               | bjt2n3904 wrote:
               | > Most of what we do, including writing code, is not
               | rational.
               | 
               | Wow. I knew I was pulling on an ugly root when I started
               | writing against the inclusivity dogma, but this is a
               | little more than I was expecting to unearth.
               | 
               | Humans do not need formal proofs for things they do to be
               | considered rational. Full stop.
               | 
               | > You can't run around asking insensitive rude questions
               | in an insanely important/sensitive situation and expect
               | to get cooperation!
               | 
               | I mean... you did just say the majority of what I did is
               | irrational :'D But. To say that kindness does not factor
               | into NTSB investigations does not mean that the
               | alternative is insensitivity and rudeness.
        
         | justanotherguy0 wrote:
         | Psychological safety is so critical.
         | 
         | I'm almost certain you have, at some point in your career,
         | correctly implemented a feature, only for an operations or
         | product counterpart to blame you for some piece of out of scope
         | functionality not being there.
         | 
         | How did that make you feel? Did you alter your behavior to be
         | less helpful in the future? Did you start recording meetings so
         | that you had a source of truth on explicit scope?
         | 
         | If team members think or feel that they "need to cover their
         | ass," that hurts the company's mission, and wastes resources.
         | Worse, it can lead to managers pushing for excessive due
         | diligence, which saps the motivation of ICs.
         | 
         | Blame is ultimately a waste of energy. Every team member is
         | going to make mistakes if they are taking sufficient risks. You
         | can fire people who have a negative contribution level or
         | chronically underperform without leaning on blame.
        
         | ropeladder wrote:
         | You have built up a terrifying straw man based on a video you
         | admit you didn't even watch.
         | 
         | You're right that we should put less emotional stake in our
         | code--the video actually lays some healthy ways to do this.
         | 
         | More generally, it's important that we recognize that people
         | have emotions, otherwise it makes it easy and convenient for us
         | to treat them like shit. ( _hint hint_ )
        
           | bjt2n3904 wrote:
           | I've been reading things the "inclusivity" crowd writes for
           | some time. There's nothing really new in anything that's
           | said, it's all the same.
           | 
           | They promise a better, kinder, more "inclusive" world. They
           | deliver "cancel culture", and self censorship under fear of
           | public struggle sessions.
           | 
           | No thank you. If it's truly a choice between "psychologically
           | safe cubicles with padded walls" and caustic code reviews
           | where people trash every line of code I've ever written --
           | I'll take the latter.
        
             | hobs wrote:
             | There's no enforced dichotomy here, and tbqh you can take
             | the sliding slope right out the door.
             | 
             | Nobody delivers "cancel culture" and those railing against
             | the consequences of their actions are generally assholes.
        
       | glued wrote:
       | One challenge I've seen in practice is that psychological safety
       | is often used as an excuse for why someone is under performing
       | instead of holding them accountable and helping them.
        
         | McGlockenshire wrote:
         | > psychological safety is often used as an excuse
         | 
         | citation needed
        
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