[HN Gopher] Acer disables BIOS for laptops sold through Amazon? ...
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Acer disables BIOS for laptops sold through Amazon? (2020)
Author : nrjames
Score : 312 points
Date : 2021-07-01 18:56 UTC (4 hours ago)
(HTM) web link (www.amazon.com)
(TXT) w3m dump (www.amazon.com)
| LucidLynx wrote:
| > He explained that all computer vendors do this to one extent to
| another, such as Apple with iPhones, and refused to provide me
| any means to unlock it no matter how technical I am.
|
| I bought a Razer Blade 15 two weeks ago during Amazon sales -
| once arrived I opened it and upgraded the SSD from 256GBytes to
| 1TBytes without any issue, and it works really good on Arch...
|
| So, Acer, not all computer vendors are doing this shit.
| webmobdev wrote:
| Give them time - Apple (and other smartphone makers) have shown
| how profitable it is to lock down a system and make it
| unrepairable. Once even more custom ARM processors appear on
| laptops and desktops, we can forget about the kind of "open"
| hardware and software we have been used to so far.
| ivraatiems wrote:
| Just throwing in a surprising second vote of support for
| Razer's laptop line. I've never owned a laptop that didn't have
| a ton of quirks, and my Razer Blade Stealth isn't an exception
| - but even given that, it's one of the best laptops I've ever
| owned. It looks beautiful, it's light, battery lasts a really
| long time, it handles any game I throw at it at 1080p with
| reasonable framerates, so I can game while traveling.
|
| The biggest issue I've had with it was actually with the
| charger - the USB C port on the charger snapped off after just
| a few months of reasonable use. Razer replaced it for free, but
| that's when I learned that any charger less than 100watts
| results in the battery draining under load when plugged in. The
| build quality of the laptop itself, though, is excellent.
|
| I've done BIOS updates, etc., and have had no issues.
| loie wrote:
| I have a Dell 5401 for work, same story with USB-C charging.
| Its power brick is 90W but the USB-C block I have can only do
| 60W max per port. Windows will whine about a "slow USB
| charger connected" but other than that it works fine for the
| typical MS Office stuff. It will drain if I really push it
| though.
| ineedasername wrote:
| Wow, 100W seems very underpowered as a charger for a gaming
| laptop. USB-C really isn't a good choice in this case.
| ivraatiems wrote:
| Yeah, this is pre-2.1 (as another commenter mentioned). It
| makes sense when you think about the hardware though -
| because it uses a laptop i7 and a Max-Q video card, even
| when gaming about 100W works OK. See
| https://www.kitguru.net/lifestyle/mobile/laptops/andrew-
| munr...
| deadmutex wrote:
| FYI, USB-C 2.1 can charge at 240W.
|
| I really prefer the simplicity of not having to drag around
| a laptop brick, and love the simplicity of having one cable
| to carry all the signals I need (USB, DisplayPort, Power,
| etc.)
| thescriptkiddie wrote:
| Can a notebook chassis actually dissipate more than 100W
| without burning your hands?
| ivraatiems wrote:
| When it's at full heat, I can't touch the laptop
| directly... but that only happens if the fans are
| blocked.
| SXX wrote:
| I bought MSI GP66 Leopard with RTX3070 (90W TDP with
| spikes up to 170W) for my nephew this year. It has 230W
| PSU, but it usable and not too hot even under heavy load
| as long as it standing on table.
|
| It has two fans that in turbo mode can keep GPU it under
| 70C even at 100% load. But yeah it's bulky almost 3KG
| workstation.
|
| Oh and at max fan speed it as loud as modern vacuum
| cleaner, but people play in headphones most of the time.
| So yeah you can have laptop with high TDP, but it's gonna
| be bulky and loud.
| reificator wrote:
| > _It looks beautiful_
|
| As long as the marketing focuses on the flashy lights I can't
| bring myself to ever buy Razer anything.
| ivraatiems wrote:
| That's the great thing about it. It's a big black piece of
| CNC'd aluminum. The only lights are on the keyboard and
| they can be turned off. I don't find it to be flashy at
| all, apart from the logo being a little overwrought. It's
| subtle; unless you knew what you were looking for or knew
| the logo, it looks much like any other highish-budget
| laptop.
|
| (The Razer Synapse program you use to control the keyboard
| RGB is annoying, it'd be a good weekend project to
| replicate its functionality in a free app, but it works for
| that purpose.)
| jaywalk wrote:
| > The Razer Synapse program you use to control the
| keyboard RGB is annoying, it'd be a good weekend project
| to replicate its functionality in a free app
|
| It's already been done: https://openrgb.org/
| ivraatiems wrote:
| Awesome. Thank you!
| [deleted]
| pomian wrote:
| Yes. They are impressive. But. They don't seem to last. As
| someone else mentioned, not long after warranty the
| motherboard quit working. Looking online there seems to be
| hundreds with that problem. I suspect from overheating. I
| think they all have heating issues- perhaps to keep them
| quieter? I don't recommend then anymore. Search razer won't
| boot.
| ivraatiems wrote:
| I think they have heating problems because they are pushing
| the limits of what can be done in their form factor: They
| get extremely hot under load because they're small and the
| fans are on the bottom, so there's a good chance they're
| blocked and will overheat. I have experienced this myself.
|
| It will be interesting to see what happens in a few years
| of use. I wouldn't be shocked if it died - but if it did, I
| still might get another one. I already replace my laptop
| every ~3 years anyway, and the benefits it provides in
| terms of form factor and capability are substantial.
| bogwog wrote:
| Razer's computers are expertly designed to die right when the
| warranty expires.
|
| The machines look and run great, but they don't last. Mine's
| a paperweight unless I find a replacement motherboard, or
| send it in to Razer to get it fixed for ~$300.
|
| Fuck that though. A Thinkpad is a better investment.
| freeopinion wrote:
| You don't want to spend $300 to repair a $2000 laptop?
|
| I'm still irritated that I have to spend more than $300 to
| buy a new laptop. It's a constant struggle to balance old
| man syndrome with reasonable sticker outrage.
| ivraatiems wrote:
| In fairness, a laptop only has a useful lifespan of 3-5
| years anyway. The more questionable thing is spending $2k
| on a laptop in the first place.
|
| The Blade Stealth ran me $1300, which I thought was
| reasonable for what I was getting. I don't expect it to
| last more than a few years, though.
| ivraatiems wrote:
| Check back in three years and we'll see if I have the same
| experience. Here's hoping not!
| gregw134 wrote:
| I had some issues with the Razer model 4 years ago. The
| rubber pads on the bottom came unglued from the heat, and I
| had 2 chargers where the cord frayed from the heat and
| started sparking. Decided to just stick with a mac for casual
| use and a desktop for when I want a gpu.
| tyleo wrote:
| Worth mentioning that RAM can be upgraded on the Razer Blade
| 15. I also have one and have upgraded SSD and RAM.
|
| Sadly the new AMD version (Blade 14) has the RAM soldered on.
| I'm not sure why. I hope Razer isn't backsliding here.
| WesleyHale wrote:
| my T490s has soldered RAM as well. It's beginning to look
| like vendors are doing this to force higher tier purchases or
| to reduce longevity of the devices.
| BrandoElFollito wrote:
| This is interesting, the law in France would protect the customer
| anyway - but I wonder why not simply sending it back to Amazon?
| MaxBarraclough wrote:
| By the sounds of it they did:
|
| > _I replied I will simply complain to Amazon and seek a refund
| through them_
| BrandoElFollito wrote:
| Ah, that's right. I was a bit confused because in France you
| deal with the vendor, not the producer.
|
| I would ask Amazon why this is blocked and that they are
| selling something that is not proper (and Amazon cannot refer
| me to the producer because they are responsible).
|
| I now got the fact that he was trying to make the laptop
| work, rather than just getting a refund.
| watsocd wrote:
| I have purchased some ACER laptops for a charity and a customer I
| support.
|
| I used to consider ACER to be one of the good guys and more open
| source/Linux friendly.
|
| I will NEVER trust them again!!!!
| dusted wrote:
| how is this not illegal ?
| notaplumber wrote:
| I don't buy this. Some Acer laptops in the past have required
| that you set a Supervisor BIOS password in order to change the
| Secure Boot settings, but after you do that you can set the
| password to blank to clear it again.
| josephcsible wrote:
| Even if this is the case, it's still terrible that such
| unintuitive, undiscoverable behavior (1) isn't documented as
| being the case, and (2) isn't known and explained by their tech
| support. And why would it only work like this if you bought
| from Amazon?
| zozbot234 wrote:
| Good point, this is definitely a thing on some hardware. Still
| crappy, but not a huge deal breaker.
| zoomablemind wrote:
| +1 on the need to set the Supervisor PW in BIOS, otherwise the
| settings were greyed out. Puzzling indeed, I had to deal with
| it back some 5 years ago. Definitely found this answer on
| forums rather than from mfgr suport pages/docs.
|
| However in this case it may be a different "lockdown" issue,
| though quite an odd choice reasoning-wise.
| hughrr wrote:
| Acer have always sold utter barrel scraping dog shit machines
| with worthless warranty made of the lowest bidding vendor's
| parts. I'm surprised anyone even looks in that direction these
| days. In fact I'm surprised they are even still going. And as for
| this, I am also not even surprised if it's happening.
|
| If you're after a _new_ laptop, buy Apple or a business grade
| unit from Lenovo (T /X/P series). If you can't afford that or
| don't want to afford it, buy a 2-3 year old machine from a larger
| refurbisher from the same list. If you shop around you can pick
| up a previous gen machine with 3 years next business day warranty
| on it sealed new for less than half current retail proce. I got a
| ryzen T495 for 500 GBP here with 3 years NBD on it.
| arp242 wrote:
| I bought a second-hand E585 for EUR500 last year; works like a
| charm. The 15" isn't what I would have chosen myself (I
| previously had an X270 that unfortunately broke after a fall),
| but it works well enough.
|
| If you're not looking for latest cutting-edge performance then
| you're usually better off buying a second-hand ThinkPad if
| available in your area.
| dstaley wrote:
| Before we all grab our pitchforks, maybe we should take a moment
| and realize that this is a single review on Amazon that's lacking
| in important details. The headline here reads "Acer disables BIOS
| for laptops sold through Amazon", but the review mentions that
| they're able to get into the BIOS. They're only unable to change
| the boot order, which is a lot different from "disables BIOS".
| Furthermore, I don't entirely understand why the reviewer tried
| to get a refund from Acer when they purchased it from Amazon. I
| bet there's a non-nefarious explanation for the disabled setting
| that the reviewer saw. Sadly with a $1,530 cost, I don't expect
| anyone here to buy the laptop just for research purposes!
| slownews45 wrote:
| [removed] - The original headline or comments I read as Amazon
| locks bios of Acer laptops sold through Amazon. Clearly
| incorrect!
| detaro wrote:
| > _The idea that Amazon would even spend the time specially
| configuring a laptop to lock the boot order?_
|
| That's not what's claimed?
| llacb47 wrote:
| Read the review again.
| javajosh wrote:
| Four problems with your post:
|
| First, Acer (the manufacturer) is doing it, not Amazon.
|
| Second, it does appear to be systematic.
|
| Third, refund policy is irrelevant and implies (falsely) that
| the issue is simply a consumer choice problem.
|
| Fourth, you ignore what is troubling: it represents the loss
| of general purpose computing devices as a product category,
| even in that last bastion of "freedom", the personal
| computer. Acer is a major manufacturer, and this shift is
| ominous.
| swiley wrote:
| Sorry, after what happened with Apple and iOS I'm unwilling to
| trust that hardware manufacturers ever do things like this in
| good faith.
| setpatchaddress wrote:
| What happened with Apple and iOS?
| jonny_eh wrote:
| See "Epic v. Apple"
| [deleted]
| niea_11 wrote:
| > They're only unable to change the boot order
|
| According to the review, they are also unable to turn off
| Secure Boot and UEFI.
| seoaeu wrote:
| Many new computers don't let you turn off Secure Boot but do
| let you delete all the keys... which then sets the machine in
| a mode where any OS can be loaded
| zucker42 wrote:
| Do you think the review is false or misleading or do you just
| think it might be? For a $1500 product often you will have to
| make purchasing decisions based off just one review.
| dragontamer wrote:
| Amazon reviews are gamed in such a manner that its difficult
| to trust them anymore.
|
| https://www.skitsolutionbd.com/Services/buy-negative-
| amazon-...
|
| There was a time when people would make trustworthy Amazon
| reviews, but... one bad apple spoils the bunch. If I don't
| know if the review I'm reading is manipulated crap, then I
| need to go elsewhere.
|
| -------
|
| For better or worse, "Best Buy" and "Walmart" have solid non-
| comingled supply chains. There's also the option of buying
| directly from some manufacturers (although I've had bad luck
| with say... HP from their website. So I prefer having a
| trusted 3rd party retailer to handle returns in the worst-
| case scenario. Best Buy handles returns fine, and I trust
| that an 'HP' laptop is indeed from HP from them. Good enough
| for me).
|
| I also live near a Microcenter, which would be my primary
| computer store. But Best Buy isn't bad for prefab and/or
| laptops, I take my friends there to check out some
| merchandise when they're looking for new laptops.
| MattGaiser wrote:
| I've earned hundreds in Amazon gift cards by just doing as
| instructed on the review cards that come with parcels.
| Trust not one word in the reviews, particularly the ones
| with videos or pictures.
| logifail wrote:
| > I bet there's a non-nefarious explanation for the disabled
| setting [..]
|
| Citation needed?
|
| There was once a time when you purchased a product you owned
| it, and were allowed to do devious stuff like "Change The Boot
| Order".
|
| Apparently that's now out of bounds.
|
| I despair.
| paublyrne wrote:
| > Citation needed?
|
| Op is making a bet not a claim.
| gmiller123456 wrote:
| I'll take that bet. Unfortunately we'd never agree when
| it's settled.
|
| A better bet would be to provide a non-nefarious answer as
| to why this isn't part of the product description.
| FullyFunctional wrote:
| Another commenter has confirmed this. Grab pitchforks.
| annoyingnoob wrote:
| Or an attorney.
| halotrope wrote:
| We should be very careful about surrendering the demand for free,
| open general computing for whatever reason. Convenience, networks
| and pricing are driving a trend towards trusted, locked-down
| computing. It never happens all at once. Always one step at a
| time.
| ineedasername wrote:
| It says "Amazon", but it's specific to Acer: does Acer do this on
| laptop sold directly or through other retail outlets?
| timbit42 wrote:
| Yes. Walmart.
| duxup wrote:
| >but was told that Acer locks the BIOS on all computers shipped
| through Amazon in order to "protect" customers from changing
| things that might break the computer if they don't know what
| they're doing.
|
| That doesn't make any sense. Why would you lock it because it was
| sold through Amazon?
|
| Is it accessible if you buy it direct from Acer?
|
| Sounds like a customer support person just made up a reason.
| slver wrote:
| > Sounds like a customer support person just made up a reason.
|
| This happens a lot, I find. People just hate having no answer
| for you. So they make up one.
| duxup wrote:
| Agreed, customer service folks feel like they need to give an
| answer (totally understandable) and ... customer service
| isn't given many tools so they just make do with what they
| think might be true.
| wccrawford wrote:
| Having worked tech support, I can provide an alternative
| explanation:
|
| _Customers_ hate not having a reason, and many techs will
| simply make one up rather than be yelled at again for not
| knowing.
| slver wrote:
| What customers hate is tier 1 support acting as a brick
| wall between them and the people with the solution to their
| problem. Or at least that's how they perceive it.
|
| While I don't shout at tech support, as I know what the
| script is, you better believe my blood is quietly boiling
| as I'm rebooting various devices that have nothing to do
| with the issue on their instruction, just so I can get to
| an appointment with technicians to fix my real issue.
|
| Same thing occurs with GP doctors, and basically every
| other system in tiers, where it inevitably organizes to
| basically stall you, so people don't overload the higher
| tiers.
| [deleted]
| derefr wrote:
| Perhaps it's a workaround for Amazon's commingled-stock
| problem. Third party can't override Secure Boot to install a
| root kit and then return the laptop in a way that ends up with
| it commingled with "new" stock, if third parties can't write to
| CMOS memory in the first place.
|
| (Of course, they could still install a "hard mod" root kit by
| e.g. reflashing the BIOS through its JTAG pins, or just
| desoldering it and soldering on something else. But that
| requires a much higher tier of resources, one that also enables
| other classes of attacks that don't involve putting the stock
| back into the first-party warehouse.)
| adriancr wrote:
| just wondering if its legal to sell returned products as new.
| I thought they were sold as refurbished/second chance with a
| discount.
| cortesoft wrote:
| Even if it is illegal, lots of sellers on Amazon break the
| law... and since they co-mingle inventory from different
| sellers, one bad seller trying to pass off returns as new
| could contaminate every seller's products.
| MattGaiser wrote:
| Amazon has a large problem with fraudulent parts and co-mingled
| stock and customers returning swapped parts and not checking.
|
| Could be protection against that?
| cjohansson wrote:
| Sounds plausible, I'm voting for that explanation. Would be
| easier if Amazon was transparent about the real reason
| instead of giving a PR reason
| cbsmith wrote:
| In fairness, this is not Amazon support.
| MattGaiser wrote:
| And Acer can't realistically say that Amazon is full of
| crooks/Amazon can't manage stuff.
| LordDragonfang wrote:
| Why not? If Amazon is facilitating fraud and computer
| crime by cutting corners on stock management, they should
| be called out for it by the companies impacted by it.
| pengaru wrote:
| Acer has always been trash, it just turns out trash is a
| trajectory; it gets even more trashy through the passage time.
| ineedasername wrote:
| How would this be done? Hardware or software layer?
|
| _Why_ would this be done? People add secondary drives, may need
| to boot from USB, etc. It seems like a weird limitation.
| mdp2021 wrote:
| A www list of "Product name | Experiences installing Linux" would
| be really, really needed. The existing ones I know are very
| incomplete.
|
| My last purchase experience was very successful (30 mins install
| including a compressed dd backup of the original hd contents.
| Before buying the product I had web-searched for other people's
| experiences), but it is absurd that one may have doubts about the
| process working (flawlessly, effortlessly...). It is like buying
| a car still wondering "will it work in my weather". This
| definitely should not happen.
| vxNsr wrote:
| In this situation it's often best to employ what many seasoned
| consumers call the HUCA strategy:
|
| Hang Up; Call Again.
|
| I've used this in many scenarios, with much success. It does mean
| you might on hold for a bit, so it's best to plan mindless tasks
| that can be quickly interrupted while doing this, but for big
| ticket items where there isn't much recourse it's often worth it.
|
| As soon as it becomes clear the person on the other end can't
| help say "goodbye" and hang up.
|
| Call right back and hopefully you'll get a more helpful person.
|
| It's very possible there is a way to get into the BIOS, and the
| rep just didn't know it but didn't wanna come off as ignorant.
| cmeacham98 wrote:
| Assuming the BIOS lock also prevents you from adding your own
| keys this fails the Windows Compatibility Program requirements
| (i.e. Microsoft's requirements for OEMs to be able to pre-install
| Windows).
|
| From https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/windows-
| hardware/design/dev...
|
| > The platform must come provisioned with the correct keys in the
| UEFI Signature database (db) to allow Windows to boot. It must
| also support secure authenticated updates to the databases.
|
| I'm not sure how to contact Microsoft about this issue though.
| AshamedCaptain wrote:
| I believe that allowing updating the database from Windows
| itself is enough to satisfy the requirement. No need to allow
| doing it from firmware setup. Microsoft's own devices do it
| that way.
| jfrunyon wrote:
| > It must also support secure authenticated updates to the
| databases.
|
| This does not imply "the user must be able to add their own
| keys". (Particularly as that would not usually be
| "authenticated").
|
| Secure Boot keys include keys which (in theory) are used to
| authenticate an update to the key database.
| solarkraft wrote:
| > the computer defaulted to a lower resolution out of the box for
| some reason.
|
| The BIOS locking is obviously egregious and they deserve anything
| from refunding this person to a class action lawsuit.
|
| But wow. That sounds like "wait, you mean people are going to use
| this as a computer?" style product management.
| jonnycomputer wrote:
| Acer: noted.
|
| What ass-hattery.
| stonewareslord wrote:
| Is the source of this a single Amazon review?
| [deleted]
| sschueller wrote:
| We are entering the dark ages rapidly. Soon you will no longer be
| allowed to install what you want. Sorry! That app is illegal now.
| All under the bullshit reason of safety/security. We can have
| both without setting everything up for an orwellian state.
| phendrenad2 wrote:
| Every year since 1995 has been "The Year of Not Being Able To
| Install What You Want". And yet, here we are, still sideloading
| on Android and running bare .EXEs on Windows. It's the hot take
| that keeps giving!
| josephcsible wrote:
| It started on just niche devices like the TiVo. It's been
| slowly branching out to more and more devices since then.
| Also, have you never seen an Android device where sideloading
| was disabled and you couldn't re-enable it? Because I have.
| mdp2021 wrote:
| Then kindly reveal which Android devices are this crippled
| - not being able to install software the normal way, via
| ADB - so we can avoid them.
|
| I also wonder: how can you develop on them? Android Studio
| would fail app deployment, the way you tell it.
| salamandersauce wrote:
| You don't develop on them. That's the point.
|
| One device I know of that doesn't allow sideloading or
| developer mode is the Ratta Supernote A5X/A6X.
| phendrenad2 wrote:
| Is it really expanding though? The market for devices is
| also expanding. Don't confuse absolute numbers with
| relative numbers. Of course I have encountered devices that
| don't allow sideloading, are you saying that is expanding
| also? Or has "rooting" always been something many carriers
| and manufacturers sought to disable?
| josephcsible wrote:
| In both absolute and relative terms. Basically every new
| computing device that's not a desktop or laptop is locked
| down in some way, and even some laptops are locked down
| too (e.g., Windows RT on ARM laptops).
| bluescrn wrote:
| We entered that age a decade ago with the rise of smartphones
| and tablets. General-purpose computing devices that allow you
| to run any code you want are gradually disappearing.
|
| For how long will we be able to run unsigned code on Windows or
| MacOS? And for how long will 'secure boot' hardware allow us to
| run Linux?
|
| Soon we'll have to buy very expensive and specialised
| development kits/development workstations to create content for
| the other 'content consumption computing' devices
| fsflover wrote:
| > We entered that age a decade ago with the rise of
| smartphones and tablets. General-purpose computing devices
| that allow you to run any code you want are gradually
| disappearing.
|
| GNU/Linux phones are general-purpose devices running desktop
| Linux. Support them if you want to have the freedom to run
| anything.
| salamandersauce wrote:
| I've had a lot of weird out there smartphones, webOS, BB10
| and Windows Phone 7/8. GNU/Linux phones just don't even
| seem close to being ready with basic phone features not
| working well from what I've read. If I could get one that
| worked reliably, lasted at least a day on battery and had
| some sort of NFC payment method I would.
| bluescrn wrote:
| The phone market is lost. May be better to focus on keeping
| desktop/laptop Linux hardware available.
|
| But the way things are going, the open source community
| might soon have to start designing their own CPUs, as you
| may not even be able to buy a high-performance CPU within a
| couple of decades, they'll be proprietary tech that only
| exists as part of a locked-down platform, like Apple are
| now doing.
| wongarsu wrote:
| On Android I can still run whatever software I want, and
| there are ecosystems of apps that rely solely on sideloading
| because they are not allowed on Google's app store.
|
| Google or Microsoft trying to prevent you from running
| whatever you want would probably lead to swift action from EU
| courts, it looks too much like an attempt to control
| competition on their platform. So instead they stick to
| scare-mongering with opt-out.
|
| Apple gets a pass because they are the underdog (30% market
| share in the EU)
| bluescrn wrote:
| > On Android I can still run whatever software I want
|
| You can sideload apps, which is better than iOS, but for
| root access most devices need some sort of hackery.
|
| Heck, why do we even accept that 'sideload' is a word. It
| should simply be 'load'.
| alerighi wrote:
| Depends on the manufacturer, on a lot of phones getting
| root access is not that difficult. The problem is that a
| lot of applications started to check for root access and
| will refuse to work if they detect it. So in practice you
| will loose some functionality that can be important, like
| your bank application.
| josephcsible wrote:
| It's not just individual bank apps. Netflix, Snapchat,
| Android Pay, Pokemon Go, and Super Mario Run will all
| refuse to run if they detect root or any other
| modifications.
| conradfr wrote:
| Coincidentally last year (and this year) in many places in the
| world you couldn't go where you wanted for the same reason.
| G3rn0ti wrote:
| I am a little surprised because I am actually quite fond of
| Acer's laptops. That's because I repaired two of them and I was
| delighted how easy they were to work with and how cheap the
| repairs were.
|
| On the last one (a 2016 Acer Aspire E5) I replaced its IPS panel
| twice because the owner (my GF) had repeatedly stepped on it.
| That was pretty easy: Removing the screen bezel, scan the panel's
| QR code revealing its part number, ordering replacement on ebay
| (EUR70, delivery from one day to another), loosening four screws
| and replacing the old panel. The second time I additionally had
| to replace the panel's housing and transfer hinges (bending one
| back into form), cables, camera modules and WiFi antennas which
| was done in under an hour. Again, all modules and individual
| parts carried a QR code for easy sourcing of replacements. The
| replacement housing had cost me only EUR30. I also replaced the
| laptop's battery before (after 2.5 years of intense usage) --
| EUR50, the battery was not even screwed in or glued but just held
| by the casing. So easy peasy replacement.
|
| In the end we sold the poor and unloved thing -- repaired, well-
| working and 4 years old -- for EUR200 on Ebay. Just because my GF
| longed for a MacBook Air for over 1400 bucks that surely looks
| great but is neither upgradable nor well repairable ...
|
| I must admit I never tried to change the boot order on these
| systems, so I might have overlooked the crippled BIOS. But ever
| since I've been recommending mid-range Acer laptops for the great
| price and repairability and been thinking of replacing my Fujitsu
| Siemens business laptop with an Acer.
|
| Photos from the last repair:
| https://www.facebook.com/1483420419/posts/10224056908918861/...
| [deleted]
| haunter wrote:
| Yet the first video on Youtube shows that you can boot from USB
| https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EARdWsgvAXo
|
| I give the benefit of doubt that the person just didn't know how
| to do it (also the source is this single Amazon review? Pretty
| low for HN tbh)
|
| Here is another video with Ubuntu
| https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ap386n98j0U
|
| There is even a Hackintosh tutorial
| https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CpJmttuumVU
|
| /r/linux_gaming also have several positive threads
|
| Edit: And of course I'm instantly downvoted
| de_Selby wrote:
| You clearly didn't read the review. They say it is only for
| models sold through Amazon
| haunter wrote:
| Yet there is no other proof beyond that one single Amazon
| review
|
| I mean I'm all in for some good HN rage but there is no proof
| beyond that one person. Also no other review mentions this
| problem (just by searching around). Linux distros can pass
| Secure Boot just fine but maybe the reviewer just simply
| didn't know that
|
| Honestly if I were in the US I'd just buy one to test this
| then send it back to Amazon because I very much doubt it's
| true
| mschuster91 wrote:
| There are two people right in this HN thread confirming
| this...
| ww520 wrote:
| Just want to point out the A-to-Z Guarantee from Amazon. When
| you're dealing with problematic sellers who refuse to remedy
| defects, mention the A-Z and watch them cave. Couple A-to-Z
| complaints and the seller is kicked out Amazon.
|
| https://www.amazon.com/gp/help/customer/display.html?nodeId=...
| meowster wrote:
| > mention the A-Z and watch them cave
|
| In that case, don't mention it, just use it.
| barnyfried wrote:
| What you are witnessing young fool is the intentional, extremely
| profitable business of "deprecating" "general purpose computers".
|
| Did you seriously think that M1 macbook was about anything but
| escaping the legal definition (there is one) of a general purpose
| computer.
|
| If you port for the M1 chip you have gone to the dark side. Ill
| be here if you ever find your way back.
|
| This reminds me of a conversation I overheard about 10 years ago,
| "I tried to delete my account on facebook I think all they are
| doing is scraping my personal information"
|
| You folks here, yc grads, you either think you have us all fooled
| or you as dumb as rocks. Neither is likely true but there will be
| consequences nonetheless. Perhaps move to bitcoin island and
| spend your riches on some margaritas and a mud hut.
| bserge wrote:
| Honestly, fuck all new laptops. I'm working on a custom PC case
| that's 36x29x15cm and can fit standard components so I have a
| proper computer that _I own_ and can carry around in average
| sized luggage.
|
| Would anyone be interested in something like that btw? Fits mATX
| boards, most graphics cards (sadly not the top end), 4x 2.5
| drives (plus onboard NVMe/mSATA), standard ATX PSUs and has a
| BIOS reset button.
| zapdrive wrote:
| Checkout framework laptop [0]. Pretty sick. It's a really
| modular laptop focused on reusability. I would order one if
| they accepted crypto.
|
| 0: https://frame.work/
| GuB-42 wrote:
| There are actually plenty of modular laptops. This one
| doesn't look terrible but there are plenty of other options.
|
| Thinkpads have a pretty good reputation. You can also get big
| "desktop in a laptop" style PCs, and generally, the thick
| gaming laptops tend to be easy to work with. You can look at
| Clevo, which is known for being the OEM for many off-brand
| PCs, notably System76. If you are a bit more extreme, you can
| look at Panasonic Toughbooks: hardened, industrial laptops
| with plenty of swapable modules.
|
| Framework have the advantage of being thin and light, most
| modular laptops are on the big side. It means it fits a
| niche. However, if re-usability is your goal, keep in mind
| that it is a startup, it may fail, and if that happens,
| forget about support and spare parts. By comparison, Lenovo
| is not going anywhere.
| Sr_developer wrote:
| > And generally, the thick gaming laptops tend to be easy
| to work with.
|
| I confirm, I havent bought one yet, but the other day I saw
| this laptop:
|
| https://www.amazon.com/ASUS-IPS-Type-i5-10300H-Keyboard-
| FX70...
|
| 17 inches, a 144hz screen,GTX 1650, 512 GB SSD and space
| for 2 more!. You can add a 4 TB HD, a 1GB SSD, and change
| the RAM to 32 GB and get a monster machine for about 1200
| USD.
|
| With a Clevo (and other similar brands) you can have even
| more customization options, although I expect them to be
| more expensive.
| bserge wrote:
| These are a nice idea, but it's still nowhere near what a
| desktop PC with standard components offers.
|
| A cheap B450 board will last me a decade at least. Start with
| a 2700x, upgrade all the way to a 12 core or even 16 core
| Ryzen 9. No thermal issues.
|
| 64+ GB of RAM, plenty of room to play with voltages and
| clocks everywhere, will actually run Linux without ridiculous
| issues.
|
| Wifi handled by an external router with dual radios and
| Openwrt. Add a Li-Ion UPS if I'm going to a place with bad
| power supply.
|
| I swore off desktops for laptops a decade ago but then they
| turned to locked down shit. No thanks.
| Lammy wrote:
| Keep this in mind when you read about Windows 11 requiring TPM
| 2.0, Secure Boot, and a camera/microphone.
| twiclo wrote:
| Embrace, extend, extinguish
| dathinab wrote:
| > TPM 2.0, Secure Boot, and a camera/microphone.
|
| Non of this prevent you from e.g. running Linux, I have been
| running Linux with Secure Boot since 5+ years. The problem
| is:
|
| - not being able to select a alternate boot device (for
| install medium, diagnostics etc., even a major problem if you
| only run windows IMHO)
|
| - not being able to set a custom platform key
|
| - the EFI "missing" some "standard" keys especially if
| combined with the previous point
|
| Sure temporary disabling secure boot for making Linux
| installs easier is nice, but not required for functionality.
|
| Similar legacy boot mode can be nice, but I haven't used it
| in ~10 years or so.
|
| As a side note you can use TPM for some usages comparable to
| e.g. a Yubikey (with drawbacks). So having a TPM can be quite
| useful, even on Linux.
| bitwize wrote:
| > Sure temporary disabling secure boot for making Linux
| installs easier is nice, but not required for
| functionality.
|
| For as long as Microsoft deigns to allow the signed shim to
| boot.
|
| Microsoft is the only key authority allowed by the main PC
| manufacturers. If you wish to become a key authority
| yourself, to allow your OS to boot on Secure Boot enabled
| devices without asking the end user to install additional
| keys (note: some devices may not allow this), then you must
| go to the OEMs individually and petition to be added to
| their key authority list. Prices from the OEMs that allow
| this are in the millions of dollars.
| dathinab wrote:
| > - not being able to set a custom platform key
|
| In which case this doesn't matter. (i.e. if you can set a
| custom platform key)
|
| Also Microsoft would not only need to stop signing shims
| but revoke all existing signatures.
| alerighi wrote:
| A lot of distributions doesn't support secure boot, or it's
| difficult to setup, look at the guide to setup secure boot
| on ArchLinux.
|
| A lot of distributions supports secure boot trough
| generating your CA, using it to sign the bootloader and the
| kernel and installing it in the UEFI, to do this you need
| to put the UEFI in "setup mode", that is a mode that
| permits the OS to add/remove keys, and then put it back in
| "user mode". Of course not being able to disable secure
| boot will not allow you to do so.
|
| As far as I know the only distributions that supports
| secure boot without the need to put the firmware in setup
| mode and install custom keys is Ubuntu, since they bought
| keys from Microsoft. But that is just as bad as running
| Windows...
|
| You can say, but I can simply turn off secure boot. If the
| firmware allows it, you can. The problem is if you have a
| dual boot with Windows: you would need to enable secure
| boot each time you want to boot into Windows and disable it
| to boot back into Linux. That is a complication that would
| make some potential new Linux users just stick with Windows
| (you have the WSL and you can run all the Linux programs
| into Windows, why would you need to install it really? That
| seems to me the policy of Microsoft).
| joedoejr wrote:
| You guys discussing a complete bs review from a technically
| uneducated person which was called "lamer" long time ago.
| "1920x1080, but looks a little pixelated" seriously can't you
| just tell for sure what resolution do you have in OS? Acer does
| not sign it's laptop BIOSes and it is trivial to read it and
| unlock/unhide all possible options with ready to use GUI
| applications from BIOS vendors. This is what people doing for
| decades, and for Thinkpads you will need a flash programmer and
| hex editor. So even if there is secure boot lock which i highly
| doubt, because no relevant detail was present in the review, you
| can solve it (hack the device that never meant for whatever you
| want it to do) at least three different ways and the easiest one
| is not bugging official support, but ask on forums like win-raid
| and get your instructions and ready to use bios in pm in several
| days if he absolutely can't set UEFI himself. I wonder what
| happen with snowflake when he learn that his Tesla top speed and
| range also software blocked.
| pkulak wrote:
| I'm wavering between a Dell and System76. I know the Dell will
| have better hardware... but man, at least the System76 will work
| with Linux, and if not, I'll have support. This only pushes me
| further toward System76.
| [deleted]
| emsy wrote:
| Acer not giving this customer a refund probably cost them more
| money than the refund would've. Such pettiness rarely pays off.
| 0x_rs wrote:
| I guess this will explode in popularity now, because it's a
| heinous behavior and what's (clearly) ridiculous is that it would
| be discovered out of the box if not long parted with it making
| returns needlessly more complicated. Besides, it'd catch by
| surprise the majority of IT people, I've never read about
| anything like this in retail.
| rblatz wrote:
| Is there anyway to flash the normal unlocked bios onto these
| machines?
| ilikenwf wrote:
| Chip clip
| mdp2021 wrote:
| Is there a standardized procedure? Any links of choice?
| josteink wrote:
| > but because Linux requires you to disable Secure Boot
|
| Patently false. I'm secure-booting all my Ubuntu installations
| and (iirc) I could do that too back when I used Fedora.
|
| Why do people keep repeating this FUD? Linux plus UEFI Secure
| Boot works fine as long as you use the signed version of GRUB.
| It's not hard.
|
| Edit: Downvotes? Really? For clearing up a (way too) common
| misunderstanding about Linux and UEFI, with facts? Jeez guys.
| LucidLynx wrote:
| I am sorry but, except maybe the latest versions of Fedora, you
| have to disable secure boot to boot on Linux the first time...
|
| I tried with Ubuntu, Pop-OS, Arch, Manjaro... All except Fedora
| require to disable Secure Boot.
| als0 wrote:
| Just want to say that my Ubuntu 18.04 works with secure boot
| enabled (and so do newer versions).
| fiddlerwoaroof wrote:
| So, the ability to boot Linux with Secure Boot is entirely
| dependent on some third party being willing to sign the
| bootloader? No thanks
| josteink wrote:
| I see I've landed so deep in the sea of FUD, beyond my
| ability to keep my feet dry, but I'll make one last attempt
| at spreading actual knowledge.
|
| 1. Too guaranteed boot Linux with UEFI Secure Boot OOB
| without technical fiddling you have to use GRUB signed using
| keys trusted by Microsoft, like Canonical's keys. So kinda,
| yes.
|
| 2. Many firmwares allows you to roll your own keys, meaning
| you don't have to trust MS or Canonical or anyone else.
|
| So you have the choice between user-friendly (default) or
| improved security (requires fiddling).
|
| I personally think the default makes sense for most users,
| and I'm already 200 miles beyond proving that Linux can
| indeed use UEFI and Secure Boot. _That's an established fact
| for more than half a decade now._
|
| Not being able to disable those in BIOS won't prevent you
| from loading Linux, and it would reflect better on the wider
| Linux-community if people stopped pushing such FUD.
|
| Canonical has a good write up here, if you want more details:
| https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UEFI/SecureBoot
| fiddlerwoaroof wrote:
| If I can't upload my own signing keys to be trusted, it's
| as good as useless to me. So, option (2) would be ok, but
| having to rely on _Microsoft_ to run Linux on my laptop is
| exactly the sort of scenario everyone was afraid of 20
| years ago.
| branon wrote:
| It's a random Amazon customer. This is HN. You and I know that
| GNU/Linux distros can pass Secure Boot just fine, but someone
| else may not know, or it may simply be more convenient for them
| to disable Secure Boot prior to installation.
|
| The Amazon customer was evidently confident enough to flip BIOS
| settings (or attempt to) but may have not known how to get
| Secure Boot working properly.
| josteink wrote:
| > It's a random Amazon customer. This is HN. You and I know
| that GNU/Linux distros can pass Secure Boot just fine
|
| The default Ubuntu installation media boots OOB.
|
| _It's really, really not hard._
| Black101 wrote:
| > Why do people keep repeating this FUD? Linux plus UEFI Secure
| Boot works fine as long as you use the signed version of GRUB.
| It's not hard.
|
| Very ridiculous. You have to get someone else to sign it for
| you, don't you?
| als0 wrote:
| Microsoft signed an open source bootloader called Shim, which
| can run out of the box on any PC. You can use Shim to load
| your own GRUB2 and set your own keys. Shim is used by Fedora,
| Ubuntu, and Debian so far. A good writeup is available here
| https://wiki.debian.org/SecureBoot
| Black101 wrote:
| Shim is on top of grub? not good ... They are trying to
| turn PCs into phones where you can't do what you want.
| swiley wrote:
| Don't conlfate UEFI and Secure Boot.
| josteink wrote:
| I'm not. The default Ubuntu installation media boots with
| UEFI and secure boot OOB with no action required by the end-
| user.
|
| It literally couldn't be simpler.
| madars wrote:
| Yep, it works great. The only caveat is that to load non-
| mainline drivers (e.g. VirtualBox or Nvidia) you need to
| enroll a Machine Owner Key (MOK) and then use it to sign
| the driver. In Ubuntu/Debian the mokutil process is
| streamlined and "apt install" will automatically prompt you
| to do it.
| pjerem wrote:
| Yes you can boot Linux with secure boot on UEFI as long you use
| a preloader like shim, graciously signed by Microsoft. That's
| what most distribution are doing.
|
| With the access to the UEFI, you can add your own trusted key,
| without needing to rely on Microsoft good will on signing your
| preloader.
| alerighi wrote:
| Ubuntu is not Linux. On other distributions secure boot doesn't
| work out of the box and requires some manual tweaking, like
| generating a CA, signing kernel and stuff, installing the CA
| key in the firmware, etc.
|
| I don't like Ubuntu, in fact I consider it the worse Linux
| distributions (it was good in the old days, nowadays is full of
| crap like snap packages and commercial stuff).
|
| Also, secure boot will have implications, for example with
| secure boot enabled you cannot load unsigned kernel modules.
| That depending on the situations can be a problem (for example
| a lot of third party drivers, for example the NVIDIA one, works
| by building a kernel module, you cannot install them, the
| distribution must provide a binary signed module or you won't
| be able to use them).
| josteink wrote:
| > On other distributions secure boot doesn't work out of the
| box and requires some manual tweaking
|
| I can't recall having issues with Fedora, but I'm not 100% on
| that. I might be wrong.
|
| > Also, secure boot will have implications, for example with
| secure boot enabled you cannot load unsigned kernel modules.
|
| I mean, that's kinda the point. You should be able to boot
| into a kernel you can trust is untampered, and that includes
| blocking unsigned modules from being loaded.
|
| Let's face it: allowing that would essentially erase any
| trust you had built up until that point.
|
| You can always enroll your own keys though?
|
| > for example the NVIDIA one, works by building a kernel
| module, you cannot install them, the distribution must
| provide a binary signed module or you won't be able to use
| them
|
| For Nvidia that's a bit if a pain, but I'm not a gamer and
| has always used the open source nouveau drivers instead.
|
| For me secure boot is clearly worth it (much improved
| security) at near no cost. For you the tally may be
| different, and I'm ok with that.
|
| I'm just trying to help _kill_ the myth that you can't UEFI
| secure boot Linux, because clearly you can. People are doing
| it every day.
|
| At this point you have to be wilfully ignorant if you still
| believe you can't.
|
| But look in this thread: replies upon replies and downvotes
| en masse on unopinionated, factual posts. Maybe some people
| really _want_ to remain ignorant? I really can't tell.
| easton wrote:
| I can confirm Fedora working fine with secure boot.
|
| https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/Fedora/18/html-
| single/U...
| Vogtinator wrote:
| It works only because Linux distributions boot through a MS
| signed binary called "shim" which allows to import the distro
| key to allow booting. That's still a much worse experience than
| with the "root of trust" MS key.
| hvinayan wrote:
| You could maybe try modifying the UEFI variables from within
| windows.
| MaxBarraclough wrote:
| The link without the 'ref' tracking argument:
| https://www.amazon.com/gp/customer-reviews/RKILN7HFLF4CS/
| dang wrote:
| Changed to that from https://www.amazon.com/gp/customer-
| reviews/RKILN7HFLF4CS/ref.... Thanks!
| boba7 wrote:
| Acer is Seagate of Laptop manufacturers.
| timbit42 wrote:
| More like the JTS of...
| crazygringo wrote:
| None of this makes much sense to me...
|
| First, I'm just confused why Acer would even do this. At first I
| thought they'd be charging extra $ to unlock the BIOS or
| something, but the review doesn't mention any of that. It's
| just... locked period? Businesses usually only do things they
| have a financial incentive for, but I'm not seeing what the
| incentive is here. Does anyone have any idea?
|
| Second, what is the "support number in the pamphlet that came
| with the computer" that wasn't Acer? Is it normal for computer
| manufacturers to provide a third-party support service or
| something?
|
| Third... why even bother trying to return it to Acer? Probably
| the #1 reason to buy from Amazon is you can return almost
| everything to Amazon no-questions-asked for a full refund within
| 30 days.
| worewood wrote:
| Incentive is preventing third- party repair and charging absurd
| rates for it just like Apple
| zogulus wrote:
| I bought an Acer laptop a while ago, then I found out the support
| they sold me was through a third party that had terrible customer
| service and they never upgraded the drivers after shipping, which
| made the laptop useless a couple of years down the line.
|
| I learnt my lesson though, never by from Acer.
| krylon wrote:
| From what I've heard, Acer's support is nothing to brag about
| either.
|
| I never owned one myself, but I've heard complaints about their
| laptops from several people regarding reliability/longevity.
|
| At the last company I worked at, we had two beamers made Acer,
| both broke within six weeks, we sent them in for repair, when
| they came back, one of them still didn't work.
| ilikenwf wrote:
| Assuming these use 4 pin SOIC chips, a programmer and chip clip
| will get you started...back it up with flashrom and see if you
| can just modify the settings there, sometimes you can with open
| source tools, other times you need leaked AMI etc tools.
|
| Beyond that, you may be able to find a way to remove the
| restriction and flash with your programmer, or use the bios from
| their website, but you have to be careful in case machine
| specific things like serial, etc are overwritten.
| mdp2021 wrote:
| These are good hints for special cases, but when one buys a
| computer it must remain implied: it is owned not licensed, it
| is bought to be used according to need not according to the
| vendor's assumptions. It must be open - you want to install any
| OS, you can _easily_ install any OS (and you surely must not be
| bound with the provided one). Strictly.
| solarkraft wrote:
| Okay, but they should pay damages for the time everyone would
| need to waste on this bullshit.
| nrjames wrote:
| I purchased one of these computers for my child. It made a loud
| buzzing noise and turned off last week. I discovered the locked
| BIOS for myself when I tried to boot from a USB to diagnose the
| problem. Acer wants $619.99 to diagnose it at their repair
| center, since it is 2 weeks out of warranty.
| LegitShady wrote:
| Some years ago I had an acer laptop with a discrete video card
| that would get so hot it would start having graphical errors. I
| installed bios updates, made sure the intakes weren't blocked,
| reinstalled drivers, reformatted the machine, etc etc. I spent
| days and days trying to solve the issue myself.
|
| I sent it into acer (under warranty!) because i couldn't play
| any games on it for longer than half an hour. They sent it back
| to me saying they couldn't find anything wrong with it. The
| laptop would still crash within 30-45 minutes of playing a
| game.
|
| Whenever people ask me to recommend computers or computer
| accessories, I never recommend acer. I've never bought another
| acer product since and I have never been dissatisfied with that
| decision.
| eps wrote:
| Back in late '00 I had a top of the line Acer. Two years of
| warranty. A week after the warranty ended the display lost 50%
| of its brightness, a day later the trackpad died and in a
| couple of days later speakers went kaput. Was rock solid while
| on warranty.
| skissane wrote:
| We bought our son a consumer HP laptop. Its BIOS isn't locked,
| but has few settings exposed. HP intentionally cripples its
| consumer laptop BIOS to hide most of the settings. I can't get
| WoWLAN to work and wonder if the BIOS settings are why but
| there are no WoL settings exposed in the BIOS.
|
| There used to be a hidden key sequence to reveal an "Advanced"
| menu. It changed a few times. But on the more recent versions,
| there is no "Advanced" menu any more, it is removed completely.
| (They use InsydeH20 BIOS; you can find some reverse engineering
| tool to decode its menu structure - I heard rumours on forums
| the hidden menu was completely removed, the tool confirmed it.)
|
| May still be possible to inspect and change some undocumented
| settings with some more in-depth BIOS hacking. But I'm scared
| I'm going to brick the computer by doing that. I gave up. I
| guess next time I buy a computer I'll keep this in mind.
| bogota wrote:
| Holy shit. I never had a good experience with acer but now i
| will never be buying one again.
| piceas wrote:
| I'm a long term IBM/Lenovo T/X series user with a side of
| yoga. Lots to like but plenty of problems too. Overall better
| than a cheaper brand like Acer from what I could see from my
| friends devices.
|
| But there have been some low points. Dodgey motherboards on
| multiple generations of T series laptops, Superfish and
| whitelisted wifi cards on the yoga, and generally poor
| quality screens for a variety of reasons gives one pause
| before buying the next one.
|
| For the first time in a couple of decades I've taken the risk
| and branched out to the Acer Spin 5. I am pleasantly
| surprised. Not perfect either but not nearly as cheap as I
| had feard. A Bios update was essential for it to be
| functional. But that was true of some models in the T series
| in the past.
| lotsofpulp wrote:
| I've been out of the Windows/PC scene for a decade, but even
| in the 2000s, I was under the impression that Acer was a
| choice to sacrifice quality for a lower price.
| xnyan wrote:
| In college I sold a lot of laptops for best buy. Acer often had
| great specs, seemingly solid looking hardware that was clearly
| influenced by good designs (Apple) and a great price for the
| specs and features.
|
| All laptops have problems, but Acer was by far the worst - More
| often then not, the problems stemmed from bad heat management
| (the most common killer of laptops IME) and quality control
| that was seemingly laser focused on avoiding problems for
| exactly as long as the warranty lasted.
|
| PSA: Lenovo has tons of problems w/r/t how they operate as a
| company, but the thinkpad is far and away the best overall non-
| mac laptop brand you can readily buy anywhere in the world.
| MattGaiser wrote:
| I just use the Best Buy warranty. I always buy it and haven't
| paid for a laptop since the one I went to university with. I
| just buy the warranty again. On my fourth laptop now.
| indigodaddy wrote:
| Interesting way to work the system of crappy hardware. They
| just keep breaking and you just keep getting replacements
| eh?
| Svperstar wrote:
| I have a 2016 Acer Predator I use for work. I replaced the
| thermal compound with liquid metal. Dropped the temps 25c and
| I have had no issue with it, it is on generation behind being
| able to run Windows 11 but still.
| xtracto wrote:
| I remember repairing Acer computers back around 1994 when I
| was in High School (like these https://4.bp.blogspot.com/-mCh
| PlLDjtqg/WVJVkMm33rI/AAAAAAAAA... )
|
| They were So bad... I remember they had "clips" instead of
| screws to remove the case.
| criddell wrote:
| I just bought a Thinkpad (my 3rd in a decade) and there's one
| big problem with it - the fan runs while the computer is
| asleep. From what I could find this is due to Windows' modern
| sleep (or connected sleep) which means the computer is still
| basically on, just in a lower power mode. Super annoying to
| hear the shhhhhhhhhh coming from the machine 24-7. To get rid
| of it, you basically have to turn off the fast boot option
| and power completely down rather than put the machine to
| sleep.
|
| It's surprising that the thermal design can't passively cool
| the CPU while in this sleep mode. It feels like a design
| flaw.
| kart23 wrote:
| Yes, thinkpads fan control suuuucks. My fan would run 100%
| of the time, even when just doing light browsing. Had to do
| a bunch of messing with windows power settings to get it
| manageable.
|
| I've never had the fans actually run while sleeping though,
| thats really bad.
| theonlybutlet wrote:
| For my personal laptop, I still use a 1st Gen Thinkpad X1
| from 2011, running Linux and it's going strong.
|
| Think the fan power management is the only downfall for
| these devices, mine either runs way too hot or at full
| blast (which was a turbo mode) back when there was still
| support for the drivers (some old windows version think 7).
| pomian wrote:
| I have been using hibernate for the last few years for all
| the laptops. With 'faster' start times this seems to be a
| better option than sleep. Plus, less risk of inadvertent
| awakening.
| alasdair_ wrote:
| The dell xps 13 is a fantastic alternative to the thinkpad.
| It can come with Ubuntu preloaded and fully configured,
| something that was a major plus for me.
| xnyan wrote:
| Agree on the XPS line, they have been largely very good for
| me. The reason I recommend Lenovo over Dell is because
| Lenovo has been more consistent for me over the years, but
| that's mostly anecdotal of course.
| eecc wrote:
| Frankly - and please don't punish me for what I'm about
| to write - I'm shocked by the endless litany of absurd
| issues with this Lenovo Thinkpad T14s I just bought.
|
| For some reason the W10 kernel chokes when handling
| network streams, huge load on the CPU0 core and barely
| nothing on the other. I'm also constantly thrown off by
| the inconsistent and sometimes roughly cut UI.
|
| Booting into Linux is a litany of horrors: desktop
| fractional scaling is blurry, Gnome 40 won't properly
| handle the alternatives to NetworkManager or PulseAudio
| which I _had_ to install when WiFi or audio suddenly
| stopped working for unknown reasons. KDE is cute, but
| will crash spectacularly taking down the whole session.
| Tried Ubuntu and Fedora, Same.
|
| I'm a software developer so I can deal with quite a fair
| amount of tinkering and tuning but frankly I don't have
| time to learn and debug multiple implementations of
| entire OS subsystems in order to pick the _less unstable_
| one and meticulously integrate it with the rest.
|
| I regret straying off the Apple path, and counting the
| days the new "M2" (or whatever it will be called) is
| announced.
|
| Sigh.
| pxc wrote:
| I have an XPS 13 for work and I mostly like it, but I don't
| think that after having used it for a while, I'd buy one as
| a personal laptop.
|
| Like the new MacBooks, it's a donglebook and it has
| basically no ventilation. I'd much rather get a T-series or
| a non-X1 X-series at this point. I don't think Dell
| currently offers any Linux laptops with that form factor,
| but I"d be willing to try them
| neelc wrote:
| I get two Lenovo ThinkPads from work, and have two personal
| HP Spectres, along with one Gateway (2020, not Acer) and
| ThinkPad (both low end).
|
| I love the 2020 HP Spectre hardware-wise (better than my work
| ThinkPads), but sometimes forced NVMe RAID gets annoying with
| FreeBSD when Lenovo and Asus let you disable it. At least
| it's not Acer with forced Secure Boot. Yes, I'll take a Mac
| over an Acer, and I work at Microsoft (but not Windows).
|
| One of the work ThinkPads I get has a locked BIOS, the other
| (that I normally use for work) doesn't. But I won't use a
| ThinkPad as my main personal laptop unless FreeBSD only works
| on one and nothing else.
| arp242 wrote:
| I worked at a repair tech at a local computer shop, already
| over 10 years ago. Certainly all the tech people were
| secretly a little bit embarrassed we were selling Acer
| laptops. I did some sales too, when it was busy and people
| were needed, and always tried to steer people away from Acer.
|
| For some of their models we had over 50% return rates. Far
| from all models mind you, but still: it was ridiculous. Many
| came back after warranty as well with hardware issues related
| to the casings and hinges. Their warranty service took
| forever and often we had to send back the machines again
| because they didn't actually fix the issue (we weren't
| allowed to repair them ourselves too, we had to use their
| repair centres; other vendors tended to be more flexible
| about this, especially if we had a long relationship with
| them).
|
| But they were cheap. So we sold many.
|
| We didn't usually sell ThinkPads, but we did on special
| demand. One customer returned theirs for whatever reason
| (T400 IIRC). We put it in the showroom, and it was there for
| well over year before we managed to sell it, at quite a loss
| I might add. We actually had a lot of business customers as
| we also did office management etc., but people just don't
| want a EUR1,000 laptop.
|
| Another aspect is that ThinkPads just don't look good to most
| people when put next to flashy Asus or Acer laptops. The
| keyboard is more "wonky" instead of the neat rectangular
| square; it's clearly better designed instead of the cramped
| 1cm Shift keys and such, but it doesn't look as good. The
| more matte display is better for loads of people, but it
| looks kinda crappy next to a bright Acer in demo mode showing
| off cool pictures. And the "black box" design doesn't seem to
| appeal to many people's tastes (although personally, I always
| felt it looked quite handsome; I miss the blue Enter keys
| btw, I always thought they added something).
|
| Oh, and gosh, don't get me started on the Acer "laptop" they
| put out with a desktop Pentium CPU, regular DIMMs, and 3.5"
| HDD. That was truly an abomination.
| slim wrote:
| I suspect the blue enter key is trademarked by ibm and was
| not part of the deal
| geocrasher wrote:
| My own Lenovo T420 has a blue enter key.
| arp242 wrote:
| Yeah, I had similar thoughts; it is _Big Blue_ after all.
| Although the 25-year anniversary they put out a few years
| ago had the blue enter, but perhaps that was a special
| one-time deal they managed to strike with IBM (good
| advertising for IBM too, after all).
| stordoff wrote:
| > when put next to flashy Asus or Acer laptops
|
| Speaking of Asus, I've had no end of issues with the Asus
| laptop I've been using for the last 3-4 years. Decent spec
| for the money, but:
|
| * audio output no longer detects external devices
|
| * I've had to replace the display twice due to it
| flickering/losing part of the image
|
| * multiple keys (~10) fell off the keyboard[1]
|
| * bottom case cracked when I lifted the laptop (plastic
| appears to have gone brittle over time)
|
| * drive/RAM access cover is held on with electrical tape,
| as it's broken away from the screw that should hold it in
| place
|
| * charger cable insulation broke where it meets the DC
| Jack; replacement charger is starting to do the same
|
| * trackpad occasionally isn't recognised from a cold boot
|
| * USB3 ports are flakey - the slightest nudge can cause
| devices to disconnect (tried with multiple devices/cables,
| and they're all fine on other machines)
|
| * keyboard sometimes locks into repeating the last key
| until I disconnect a USB device or change my keyboard
| layout with the mouse (probably a software issue, but I
| haven't managed to track it down)
|
| Combining the repairs (display, bottom case, keyboard,
| charger) with some upgrades (SSD, HDD, RAM, WiFi card),
| it's a real ship of Theseus at this point. There's not
| _that_ much of the original machine left. This is my first
| Asus machine, and I really can't say I recommend it.
|
| [1] And I didn't notice until after I'd ordered the
| replacement keyboard that it's not really designed to be
| replaced without replacing the top case (it fits between
| the top case and a metal shield, and they're heat staked
| together), so that was an interesting repair
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