[HN Gopher] Heat dome causing record breaking heat wave
___________________________________________________________________
Heat dome causing record breaking heat wave
Author : goesup12
Score : 156 points
Date : 2021-06-30 21:01 UTC (1 hours ago)
(HTM) web link (www.severe-weather.eu)
(TXT) w3m dump (www.severe-weather.eu)
| throwawaysea wrote:
| There have been some previous discussions on HN about this
| weather event in the Pacific Northwest, for example
| https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27670739
|
| One thing I want to mention is that it is not known if this heat
| wave is caused by climate change or not. A UW professor named
| Cliff Mass, who specializes in climate science and has written
| books about the weather of the Pacific Northwest, has
| specifically said
| (https://cliffmass.blogspot.com/2021/06/incredible-
| temperatur...):
|
| > Is global warming contributing to this heatwave? The answer is
| certainly yes. Would we have had a record heatwave without global
| warming. The answer is yes as well.
|
| He also said in the same article:
|
| > Let me end with the golden rule of temperature extremes: the
| bigger the temperature extreme the SMALLER the contribution of
| global warming. Think about that.
| angst_ridden wrote:
| The thing is, this is a chaotic effect of the jet stream going
| into tighter oscillations. Think of a river in a flat area
| meandering more and more until oxbows form. It's an analogous
| phenomenon with the jet stream and pressure. The jet stream
| tends to follow warmer air, which means increased temperatures
| overall give a "flatter" plain to meander on, to return to the
| analogy. Obviously, like anything, it's far more complex than
| the analogy permits.
| throwawayuw wrote:
| Throwaway as well because I've worked with Cliff Mass and am
| not interested in being at the receiving end of the retaliation
| that he's known for doling out.
|
| Cliff is kind of a pariah among meteorologists and climate
| scientists. He _loves_ that fact, and revels in this idea that
| he's the lone genius who got it right while the rest of the
| community got it wrong on climate change. But he's not viewed
| as someone who makes credible statements, particularly as they
| pertain to questions about climate.
|
| Many of his blog posts are deliberately misleading or contain
| incorrect information. Others I'd categorize as "You're not
| wrong... you're just an asshole." He has a decent understanding
| of some of the meteorological phenomena that are unique to the
| Puget Sound region, but even there I take every word he writes
| with a grain of salt. Sure, read his blog to understand how the
| snow is going to be this weekend at Crystal. But I'd leave it
| at that.
| Lammy wrote:
| Maybe it's time to start talking about ways humanity can geo-
| engineer our way out of this instead of just sitting here waiting
| to suffer. The US Air Force has been interested in this topic for
| decades, but there's no way to know how viable any of that
| research actually is. Some of the speculative documents I've read
| propose using carbon black dust as a way to artificially reflect
| heat, like
| https://web.archive.org/web/19970429012543/http://www.au.af....
| andrewmcwatters wrote:
| The Matrix!
| Lammy wrote:
| I wish that was what they meant by "VR WX -- Virtual Weather"
| :p
| riffic wrote:
| One of the more compelling geoengineering strategies I've seen
| discussed has been Olivine weathering:
|
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Olivine
| splittingTimes wrote:
| "All the CO2 that is produced by burning one liter of oil can
| be sequestered by less than one liter of olivine." [1].
|
| Given that formulation I assume that the amount of olivine
| needed is the same order of magnitude as the 1 liter of oil
| to produce the CO2.
|
| The world is consuming 97 Mio barrels of oil per day [2]. I
| doubt we can mine that amount of olivine on a daily basis. Is
| it even available in that quantity?
|
| How is olivine considered an adequate option to reduce the
| CO2 in the atmosphere?
|
| ===
|
| [1] that Wikipedia article above.
|
| [2] https://www.worldometers.info/oil/
| dEnigma wrote:
| "The primary component of the Earth's upper mantle, it is a
| common mineral in Earth's subsurface,[...]". This sentence,
| also from that same Wikipedia article, seems to suggest
| that availability wouldn't be the problem. But, whether the
| whole process is practical/reasonable, is another question
| entirely.
| staplers wrote:
| https://climate.nasa.gov/news/2927/examining-the-
| viability-o...
|
| Something a little more simple and using abundant resources.
| londons_explore wrote:
| In the best case, one ton of oil/coal requires a few tons of
| olivine to neutralise it right?
|
| So we need to go olivine mining at a greater rate than we
| have done oil extraction... Will there be millions of olivine
| rigs, olivine pipelines, olivine wars?
|
| Somehow I don't think it's gonna happen...
| tempestn wrote:
| Agreed. Following Project Vesta with interest:
| https://www.projectvesta.org/
| _rpd wrote:
| http://carbon.ycombinator.com/
| ArkanExplorer wrote:
| There are 241 coal power plants in the USA.
|
| Get 50 people chained up in front of the gates, and stop workers
| and coal coming in.
|
| Maintain this human blockade until the last coal power plant is
| shut down. Ignore arrests and ignore the police.
|
| Screw the impact on the 'investment'. The grid will handle the
| loss of electricity anyway.
|
| That's about 12,000 people across the USA who could actively
| shape the future of humanity.
| jhayward wrote:
| > The grid will handle the loss of electricity anyway.
|
| No, it won't. And if you do it in the midst of a hot summer, or
| a cold winter, people will die because you killed them.
|
| There are responsible ways to close those plants without
| killing people.
| bob1029 wrote:
| I wish I knew more about meteorology. It must be incredible (and
| maybe a little harrowing) to be in that profession these days.
|
| Does anyone have any idea how this heat wave will conclude? Does
| all that energy just fade out into a nice polite rainstorm, or
| should we expect something more dramatic to cap it off
| considering the unprecedented circumstances?
| squidfood wrote:
| On the Pacific NW coast where this is happening, cool marine
| air will push in and eventually overwhelm the system holding in
| the heat. The change can be quite abrupt, as the two systems
| wrestle for dominance, I've felt it (in Seattle) is as a sudden
| breeze followed by what feels like turning the AC on -
| literally a 5-10deg temp drop in minutes and can drop 30deg in
| a couple hours. It doesn't generally end with full-on rain but
| with cool coastal clouds rolling in.
| throwawaysea wrote:
| In this case it was a 40-50 degree (Fahrenheit) swing from
| the record high to the overnight lows as the air compression
| from sinking air off the mountains dispersed and marine air
| came onshore: https://cliffmass.blogspot.com/2021/06/even-
| more-extreme-ext...
| s5300 wrote:
| Check out Frankie MacDonald, he's an autistic savant
| meteorologist. Not saying that in any disrespectful way, I know
| some people get a bit butthurt when using those words.
|
| I don't know if he's commented on it yet, but _if_ he has,
| >99% chance he's correct.
| JKCalhoun wrote:
| > Not saying that in any disrespectful way, I know some
| people get a bit butthurt...
|
| Incongruence detected.
| s5300 wrote:
| How is it incongruent to make it known I wish I could
| celebrate somebody's unparalleled excellence with a simple
| colloquial term?
|
| Like, HN is a place that circlejerks nonstop about
| 10x/100xers, and you want to give me grief for this?
|
| He is an openly & proud autistic human, though with some of
| the difficulties he has regarding some things many think of
| as "normalcy" in our modern day life that are inherent to
| the autism disorder, he operates with what at least appears
| to be the skill of the 99th percentile of meteorologists.
| By definition, he's a savant.
|
| To make the presumption that I'm being disrespectful by
| using the term is asinine. He wouldn't have been the first
| person to immediately pop into my head regarding the parent
| comment if I didn't think so highly of him.
| buildbot wrote:
| It was very bad in Seattle, most building AC systems couldn't
| even keep up with the load. Lots of wildlife certainly died,
| there were so many heartbreaking posts about finding dead cats
| and birds.
| ttul wrote:
| Same in Vancouver. The hotel I stayed at couldn't get the room
| to go below 25C - about 80F. Extremely uncomfortable, albeit
| better than 95F outdoors.
| Izikiel43 wrote:
| 25C vs the over 40C in monday is heaven
| Avamander wrote:
| Have you acclimated yourself to 20C/86C using AC that 25C/80F
| is uncomfortable?
| thesh4d0w wrote:
| Nobody here has AC to acclimate themselves to that, 20C is
| a more normal temperature for Vancouver.
| 908B64B197 wrote:
| To think that a few years ago some design firm were firmly
| convinced they could build an office building there without AC.
|
| http://archive.kuow.org/post/modern-seattle-building-doesn-t...
| beders wrote:
| The huge waves of human migration caused by climate changes will
| not only lead to suffering and death of millions, it will also
| bring us to the new brink of a new world war.
|
| Whole regions becoming unlivable will affect us all. We can't
| wait around until some invention saves us. We need to act now. We
| can turn this around with WWS alone.
| freeflight wrote:
| It's already happening but barely anybody notices because it's
| so politicized.
|
| Syria for example has been in over a decade of civil war,
| refugees spilling over deep into Europe affecting local
| politics, as the ME region was already saturated with displaced
| people trough Afghanistan and Iraq.
|
| Yet most peoples take on Syria is a regurgitated: "The Syrian
| people rose up against an evil dictator regime! Arab Summer!".
|
| When in reality the people in Syria went trough a 10 years
| period of drought [0] prior to "shit hitting the fan". A
| combination of the climate getting hotter while water is
| getting more scarce in the region, as Turkey controls the
| majority of freshwater inflow into Syria and large parts of
| Iraq [1]. An inflow that's steadily getting smaller, as Turkey
| is expanding its own agricultural infrastructure projects, with
| plenty of dams, in Southeastern Anatolia.
|
| In 2008 Syria sought more drought support from the UN, and
| particularly the US. The cable can be found on Wikileaks [2]
| and the warnings by the Syrian UN representative and minister
| of agriculture read pretty much prophetic in hindsight.
|
| [0]
| https://reliefweb.int/sites/reliefweb.int/files/resources/Fu...
|
| [1] https://climate-diplomacy.org/case-studies/turkey-syria-
| and-...
|
| [2] https://wikileaks.org/plusd/cables/08DAMASCUS847_a.html
| cwkoss wrote:
| What is WWS in this context?
| h4waii wrote:
| Wind, Water, Sunlight.
| irrational wrote:
| I personally would not buy property or a home south of the 45th
| parallel. I know people moving from Oregon to Texas because
| they disagree with how Oregon handled the pandemic. I think
| they are nuts in more ways than one.
| tomcooks wrote:
| Everytime you take your car think about the discomfort you felt
| by reading the headline.
| _carbyau_ wrote:
| On the one hand, it is easy to see the direct link.
|
| OTOH, you can't blame a person - or company - for playing
| according to the rules of the game.
|
| It comes down to: "Why should I eschew a car and take 250%
| longer to travel places on COVID infested public transport,
| when my neighbour Bob jumps in his BMW SUV and drives."
|
| We need leadership from lawmakers or nothing meaningful will
| happen.
| xyzelement wrote:
| If you are trying to persuade people to your point of view, I
| don't think this method works.
|
| First, skimming the article for the causes of "heat dome" I am
| not seeing connections to climate change. Maybe I didn't read
| carefully enough so let me know but this could just be a
| "thing".
|
| But more importantly, short of that connection it looks like
| you are trying to appeal to guilt and fear and that's just not
| something that attracts mentally healthy people. Nobody is
| interested in that emotion so if it's warranted you have to
| work much harder to make a case.
|
| Besides our cars have good AC.
| grishka wrote:
| In the US, at least, air conditioning is somewhat common from
| what I know. It was as hot as +35 in northwest part of Russia
| last week, for several days, with sun barely coming down at
| night, and that felt like a torture at times. Some historical
| records were broken.
| TeMPOraL wrote:
| Whoever is building and selling ACs these days, I think these
| companies are a good investment right now. Summers in Europe
| are on track to become unlivable without air conditioners in
| individual homes; I give it few more years before everyone and
| their dog will want to buy one.
| cryptoz wrote:
| > In the US, at least, air conditioning is somewhat common from
| what I know.
|
| I think you are misinformed. Some areas have it for sure, but
| in some very large population areas like the Pacific Northwest
| (say, 20M people), it is very rare. I know that 0 of the houses
| in my neighborhood have AC originally. [1] Any AC that someone
| has now was purchased in the last few days, and many people
| cannot afford to purchase a window unit or portable unit.
|
| [1] This is knowable because nighttime sound has skyrcoketed.
| It used to much quieter at night here, but now, after 8pm or so
| when the car noise is less, you can hear the blasting of
| everyone's new window unit as it struggled to keep up.
| freeflight wrote:
| _> In the US, at least, air conditioning is somewhat common
| from what I know._
|
| Afaik that depends on the specific region in the US. Some
| states have hot regions where AC is common, but plenty of
| others don't because heat didn't used to be as common as it's
| now, thus the sudden need for cooling to such a degree that
| even public cooling shelters are a thing [0]
|
| Another factor, even for places with AC, is that their
| infrastructure and AC is built to certain heat expectations, if
| the weather goes outside these expected then the infrastructure
| can't cope. A version of that was the Texas electricity grid
| failing during the sudden high demand of a "real" winter.
|
| [0] https://www.axios.com/northwest-heat-dome-global-
| warming-591...
| dharmab wrote:
| Even in hot regions, existing cooling systems may not be
| designed for higher temperatures happening earlier in the
| year.
| cwkoss wrote:
| https://cliffmass.blogspot.com/
|
| Cliff Mass's blog has been providing good context about the
| meteorology of the heat dome.
| jimmytucson wrote:
| I feel like extreme weather is right up there with super moons
| and other astronomical events when it comes to generating
| headlines, so I did a time constrained Google search for "heat
| dome" and here's what turned up:
|
| 2020-07-10 - "How a 'Heat Dome' Forms--and Why This One Is So
| Perilous (A massive, intense heat wave is settling over the
| continental US. The ravages of the Covid pandemic are going to
| make it all the more deadly.)"
|
| https://www.wired.com/story/how-a-heat-dome-forms/
|
| 2019-07-29 - "What exactly are heat domes and why are they so
| long-lasting and miserable? (Since late June, bouts of extreme
| heat have scorched both the United States and Europe. To blame
| are large, stagnant zones of high pressure known as heat domes.)"
|
| https://www.washingtonpost.com/weather/2019/07/29/what-exact...
|
| 2018-07-29 - "Scorching, long-duration heat wave to roast much of
| U.S."
|
| https://www.axios.com/scorching-heat-wave-hits-us-millions-a...
|
| 2017-07-22 - "Meteorologists keep mentioning the 'heat dome' -
| What is it?"
|
| https://www.sfgate.com/news/article/What-s-a-heat-dome-11240...
|
| 2016-07-22 - "'Heat Dome' Causing Excessive Temperatures In Much
| Of U.S."
|
| https://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-way/2016/07/22/487031278...
|
| I don't mean to make light of important meteorological events,
| especially as they relate to climate change, but can anybody with
| better knowledge tell me if this is a significant incident, or
| just another "super blood worm moon to appear larger than it has
| since 1944"?
| npunt wrote:
| Yes, the absolute values being seen here are breaking past
| records by up to 10*F. This isn't media just making something
| of nothing.
| kzrdude wrote:
| There were pretty significant heat records set in western
| Canada
| AnimalMuppet wrote:
| > The ravages of the Covid pandemic are going to make it all
| the more deadly.
|
| Yeah... um... call me skeptical on that claim. So far as I can
| tell, Covid didn't break anybody's air conditioners. It didn't
| (so far as I know) leave people more susceptible to heat. That
| article seems like attention-grabbing nonsense. (I'm not
| blaming _you_ , just commenting on what your search turned up.)
| azornathogron wrote:
| I agree it's probably just attention grabbing nonsense, _but_
| I 'll note there are a bunch of communal shelters being used
| by people who don't have facilities otherwise to get out of
| the dangerous heat levels. Bringing a bunch of strangers
| together into a communal heat shelter isn't ideal in a
| pandemic.
| mappu wrote:
| If the same headline comes up every year then it's easy to
| construe it as headline-generating pandering.
|
| But the facts are, that the earth is warming more and more
| every year, and if you are under 40 then you have _never_
| experienced a year of below-average temperatures. The headlines
| are repeated because we break new records every year.
|
| https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2019/oct/10/if-you...
| throwawaysea wrote:
| The same headline is not coming up every year, at least with
| regards to the weather event the article is about. Seattle's
| previous record was from 11 years ago in 2009. Seattle also
| hit triple digit temperatures two other times, in 1941 and
| 1994. Source:
| https://www.seattlepi.com/local/weather/article/10-years-
| ago...
| mustafa_pasi wrote:
| In Miami a few days ago, an apartment block collapsed. Around
| 150 perished. In the heat wave that hit British Colombia, 230
| people perished.
|
| When heat waves hit Europe in the summer, there are thousands
| to tens of thousands of deaths. It's nothing to sneer at.
| weeblewobble wrote:
| I mean, it was 108 degrees in Seattle on Monday. The previous
| record was 103. Not sure what more information you need to
| determine significance-- it's literally never been hotter
| irrational wrote:
| Monday in Portland was crazy. We went to a friends house to eat.
| Our car said it was 119 when we went in. When we came out 2 hours
| later it was 82!
| lwansbrough wrote:
| Here in British Columbia we had 100+ excess deaths over the past
| 4 days (COVID excess deaths here are probably zero over the same
| period.)
| fragbait65 wrote:
| Honestly, why bother?
|
| The earth isn't dying, the earth will be fine, it will recover
| over time, humanity on the other hand needs to be reduced.
|
| If it isn't climate change, an epidemic or something else, then
| it will be war over resources some time in the future.
|
| On the other hand, climate change will probably lead to war
| anyway, since resources like water and places to live will
| decrease from that, so war is probably in the future anyway,
| since world population continue to rise, especially since the
| Chinese seem to allow 3 children moving forward.
| runesoerensen wrote:
| _> humanity on the other hand needs to be reduced_
|
| The point of view expressed here somewhat ironically show a
| severe lack of humanity. If anything it seems more humanity is
| needed here.
|
| It's not uncommon to hear people talk about various types of
| population control/reduction while being seemingly oblivious to
| just how tragic and psychopathic the point of view is.
|
| If you find yourself agreeing with, say, Thanos, and also think
| it'd be great to see half the world's population reduced by
| half, I think that's a pretty strong signal that you need to
| really think about what you're saying and if something can be
| done to increase your ability to empathize with people in need.
|
| Another approach, that doesn't involve letting people die,
| directly or indirectly, through our (lack of) action, would be
| to address issues that cause long term high population growth,
| in addition to for instance developing technologies and making
| cultural/lifestyle changes to accommodate more people on our
| planet to the extent that's needed.
| fragbait65 wrote:
| That's not my point.
|
| My point is that there's no need for population control. The
| problem will eventually solve itself.
|
| I think humanity is doomed as long as there are egotistical
| and greedy people and there's nothing you or I can do as
| individuals.
|
| The problem is lack of resources, so I don't think the
| problem is solvable with with technology.
|
| And just for reference, I actually am very successful in a
| field where you do have to empathize with people to be
| successful. That's actually what makes me bitter, I empathize
| and all I see is greed and selfishness. It's human nature,
| and that can't be solved with technology or science.
| cwkoss wrote:
| Population reduction advocates never seem to argue that
| themselves committing suicide would be the moral choice,
| which reveals they are valuing the preservation of their own
| current lifestyle over the lives of the "others".
|
| In practice, it seems like the majority of people who call
| for population reduction are white/western supremacists who
| lack empathy for humans born with less privilege.
|
| Birth control should be freely available to every human on
| the planet. Beyond that, I don't think there is any moral
| policy available to reduce population.
| fragbait65 wrote:
| You are probably correct.
|
| I didn't really mean to suggest population control, even
| though I wrote just that. The problem as I see it is that
| everybody tries to approach the problem as if it will be
| solvable by technology.
|
| The only way I see that we can solve a climate crisis or
| the survival of humanity long term is to actually work
| together. Which I'm pretty certain will never happen, since
| there will always be greedy and selfish people.
| kzrdude wrote:
| I think you are half right. The earth isn't dying, it will be
| fine.
|
| We should have a human focus, because it's a global common
| ground.
|
| We should bother because this is all about what kind of life we
| will have in the future.
|
| Some will die, some will always survive. That doesn't really
| change. But if we can stop climate change in a good way it can
| give us a better quality of life. Less conflict, less resource
| scarcity. That's why it's worth bothering, to build prosperity,
| invest in the future.
| fragbait65 wrote:
| I agree with everything you say.
|
| It's actually not a science/technology problem. The problem
| is human nature, and that's not solvable with technology. If
| it was, then everything would be rather simple...
| nxc18 wrote:
| The Chinese have not been successful in getting people to have
| more children. Recent news is that they may be covering up for
| the early stages of population decline.
| https://www.reuters.com/world/china/china-report-first-popul...
|
| Beyond that, the consensus is that population will naturally
| plateau in the near future, no need for killing people you
| don't like.
|
| https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2019/06/17/worlds-popu...
|
| This is high school level knowledge. Where does this meme that
| human population is growing out of control come from? I keep
| seeing it repeated here and it is puzzling.
| fragbait65 wrote:
| I agree with what you say. I didn't mean to say that the the
| population growing is the actual problem. I mean to say that
| lack of resources is the problem. (Too lazy to create a link)
| https://www.theworldcounts.com/challenges/planet-
| earth/state...
|
| We would still consume too much resources even with
| population decline.
|
| Sure, lets say we fix climate change. I think the only viable
| way to actually do that is for everybody agree to live as
| people did a few hundred years ago.
|
| People seems to believe that we can solve climate change with
| technology. I think that's a pipe dream.
|
| I also think that it's a pipe dream thinking that the world
| will band together and "solve" the climate crisis together. I
| think Covid-19 has showed us that humanity does not band
| together in a crisis, each country and even each individual
| will use the crisis to make moves to benefit them.
|
| And it doesn't matter what you do as a individual, most
| resources are consumed by large corporations anyway.
| wstrange wrote:
| Since that article was posted, Lytton BC broke the previous days
| record again: 49.6C (121 F)
|
| [0] https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/british-columbia/bc-
| alberta-h...
| JKCalhoun wrote:
| Wow, that's Death Valley hot.
| geocrasher wrote:
| I haven't had the opportunity to look up the humidity in BC,
| but certainly it is far greater than what you would see in
| death valley. Death valley is a very dry area. The Pacific
| Northwest is wet and the humidity just adds to the misery of
| the heat. In my area we saw almost 110deg at about 35%
| humidity. I have experienced 120deg in 5% humidity and I have
| to say the 110 felt hotter! Definitely more miserable!
| throwitaway1235 wrote:
| It sounds like a reverse polar vortex? If any meteorologists are
| around to confirm.
| npunt wrote:
| I wonder if this heat dome effect contributed to Venus' eventual
| fate. My #1 fear is we're just going to get into some runaway
| cascade of warming and turn into something like Venus much faster
| than we realize.
| lamontcg wrote:
| The Earth has had 2,000+ ppm CO2 concentrations in the past and
| hasn't turned into Venus.
|
| And more or less we're going to dig up all the dinosaurs and
| plants that died and turned into oil/carbon and put them back
| in the atmosphere and return to that if we do nothing. But we
| have a record of what that looks like and its not Venus.
|
| That's also a very silly things to "fear" since to turn into
| Venus you gotta do things like melt all of Antarctica,
| Greenland and the Himalayas first which will take a couple
| hundred years. There's an awful lot of thermal mass in all that
| ice.
|
| Disruption to agriculture and food production though doesn't
| require turning the Earth into Venus.
| freeflight wrote:
| It's kind of sad how we are fantasizing about terraforming
| Mars, while we've been seemingly very effective at venusforming
| Terra.
| semitones wrote:
| We're all gonna die.
| [deleted]
| kzrdude wrote:
| Some will die, some will always survive this. That doesn't
| really change - so that's barely what this is about.
|
| We need to make an effort to stop climate change. If we can
| stop climate change in a good way it can give us a better
| quality of life. Less conflict, less resource scarcity,
| investing in a prosperous future.
| undfg wrote:
| Every news piece about "climate change".
| https://getyarn.io/yarn-clip/f5d6d60c-adba-478d-835c-8a3804e...
| riffic wrote:
| on a long enough timeline..
| kiliantics wrote:
| it's already happening:
|
| https://mobile.twitter.com/JimBair62221006/status/1354175511.
| ..
| [deleted]
| blondie9x wrote:
| To some seeing records such as these fall is heartbreaking. It's
| agonizing and vexing when you wonder what can you do to help slow
| down climate change? The reality is we aren't doing nearly enough
| to slow it down and the Earth is gradually destabilizing. We see
| insane cold snaps such as those that impacted Texas this winter,
| and at the opposite end of the spectrum heat waves unlike
| anything humans have ever experienced before. The worst part is
| these will continue to get worse year after year while greenhouse
| gas emissions rise. Imagine the record high temperatures falling
| this week and year. In 5 years or 10 years they might even
| distant memories as we continue to see records broken and the
| planet become less livable.
|
| The worst part of this is Earth is all there is for us. There is
| no where else to go. We are this tightly interconnected ecosystem
| where all beings are completely bound to one another. Our home is
| surrounded by darkness for millions of miles. There is no option
| B. There won't be, that's just the way it is. Mars won't be
| option B. Don't kid yourself. If we don't right the course on
| greenhouse gas emissions with urgent changes to limit emissions
| now, then we will have lost the habitability of Earth. I can
| envision us having to live inside year round without being able
| to go outside. Does this feel so much like a remote possibility
| now? It seems year over year temperate days become more elusive.
| Fires. Droughts. Extreme weather events. Floods.
|
| The destruction and extinction of entire ecosystems hangs in the
| balance. The crazy thing is we can stop this. But only with
| urgent individual and society actions and sacrifices now to
| address the climate crisis.
| rad_gruchalski wrote:
| Let's not forget about big rocks falling from the sky,
| volcanoes and the Sun killing this planet inevitably in about
| 1b years from now. There better be a planet B at some point.
| derethanhausen wrote:
| Even an Earth ravaged by big rocks and volcanoes would be
| much more survivable than Mars in its current state.
| rad_gruchalski wrote:
| Definitely. Can't disagree with that. But at some point we
| will be on a lookout, if we are still here...
| [deleted]
| i_love_music wrote:
| I don't understand the negative comments towards you. Are
| people living in denial? I appreciate your comment.
| Taek wrote:
| As an individual, there isn't really anything you can do. Going
| vegetarian doesn't help. Recycling doesn't help. Using your
| shower for 5 minutes doesn't help.
|
| As a society, we've chosen to manage resources via capitalism.
| If you use less water, what that means is water is cheaper so
| some corporation can afford another few acres of almond trees.
| If consumers cut their waste in half, the slack would be picked
| up at the corporate level.
|
| I genuinely believe the only answer is violently enforced
| regulation. Set a standard like the Geneva convention that says
| how much pollution and waste you are allowed to generate on a
| per-area basis, and actually go to war against countries that
| don't meet the goals. Throw executives in jail that increase
| profits by migrating production to countries with less
| regulation around emissions and waste.
|
| This is a tragedy of the commons problem, and you aren't going
| to fix it by having even a large percentage of the population
| agree to be respectful of the commons. You have to declare war
| against those that aren't respecting the commons. I don't see
| another path that will actually result in meaningful change.
| pphysch wrote:
| I agree with you but as it stands the dominant ideology of
| the USA-led "international rule-based order" is Liberalism
| (i.e. the individual is the authority). Until there is an
| ideological revolution in the West, this is "just how it is".
|
| Every scientifically-correct, readily-implementable strategy
| to address this crisis will be killed at some point for
| infringing on sacred "individual liberties". Look at Biden
| currently doing huge damage to the international solar
| industry as a byproduct of Washington's floundering
| ideological crusade against "authoritarianism" [1].
|
| [1] - https://www.scmp.com/economy/china-
| economy/article/3139062/u...
| 6f8986c3 wrote:
| Environmentalists fought against nuclear power for 70
| years. The result? We burned coal.
| pphysch wrote:
| SOME "environmentalists" fought against nuclear power for
| 70+ years.
| 6f8986c3 wrote:
| No, most of them did.
| pphysch wrote:
| You should have specified that. Sure, big media ops like
| Greenpeace are anti-nuclear. However, many actual
| scientists like James Lovelock is staunchly pro-nuclear
| [1].
|
| [1] - https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2020/jul/18
| /james-lo...
| loopz wrote:
| Maybe you're right, maybe war is the answer to less CO2:
| https://www.co2levels.org/
|
| However, it is interesting that people find "solutions",
| before they've even described and analysed the entire problem
| set.
| nkingsy wrote:
| You could just say enforced. The violence is implicit.
|
| I think an infinite metadata approach also gets you there.
|
| It appears that culture becomes homogenized in a direct
| relationship with information transfer.
|
| So if we continue on the path of generating metadata for
| EVERYTHING, we will arrive in a world where we can obtain
| detailed supply chain information just by virtue of the fact
| that a thing exists.
|
| Transparent supply chains and homogenized culture seems like
| a good recipe for internalizing externalities without
| regulation per say (rather propaganda).
| staplers wrote:
| You'll get downvoted, but we punish personal drug use
| significantly more than catastrophic world-ending
| environmental crimes.
| danenania wrote:
| Wars are not exactly beneficial to the planet. And it would
| be a nice joke if your righteous war to save the planet from
| climate change ends up leading us into a nuclear winter.
|
| Neither violence or authoritarianism are necessary to solve
| the problem. We who live in democracies "just" have to elect
| governments sufficiently not corrupt that they will impose
| the required environmental restrictions on industry, and use
| strong _economic_ pressure on other nations that don 't get
| their houses in order.
| Taek wrote:
| > Wars are not exactly beneficial to the planet. And it
| would be a nice joke if your righteous war to save the
| planet from climate change ends up leading us into a
| nuclear winter.
|
| Fully agree. War is worth avoiding at all costs.
|
| > We who live in democracies "just" have to elect
| governments sufficiently not corrupt that they will impose
| the required environmental restrictions on industry, and
| use strong economic pressure on other nations that don't
| get their houses in order.
|
| I may be overly cynical but I just don't see this
| happening. But I would absolutely rejoice if it did work
| out that way.
| pope_meat wrote:
| I can't believe we forgot to try that.
|
| Just vote, people.
|
| _Heavy sarcasm_
| pphysch wrote:
| > We "just" have to elect a government sufficiently not
| corrupt that it will impose the required environmental
| restrictions on industry, and use strong economic pressure
| on other nations that don't get their houses in order.
|
| This is essentially the operating definition of
| "authoritarianism" in Washington, though. If you can't be
| bought, you must be anti-freedom.
| samzon44 wrote:
| A dictatorship[1] of the proletariat could do that!
|
| > I genuinely believe the only answer is violently enforced
| regulation.
|
| I would like to point out that 'violence' is not _strictly_
| necessary, except as a defensive measure. An internationally-
| organized working class could simply refuse to work on
| destructive projects (new oil pipelines, etc). Unfortunately,
| people in power tend to react with increasing violence when
| their power is threatened (see for example the police
| response to DAPL protests), so you do have to be prepared to
| respond to violence one way or another during the transition
| of power. i.e. better organized = less violence.
| Unfortunately we are very disorganized currently, and
| organizing is (in my experience) hard. Better get on that.
|
| [1] This word makes the whole term sound undemocratic but
| actually refers to the proletariat as a whole enforcing their
| will (which must by definition be determined in a democratic
| way) despite the will of the existing ruling class without
| the need for negotiation.
| slibhb wrote:
| If the "working class" revolts, it's going to be against
| climate change-focused regulations, not in favor of them.
| andrei_says_ wrote:
| Maybe it's time to signal political leaders that climate collapse
| is an urgent issue.
| heavyset_go wrote:
| Why? They're often part of the same ownership class that stands
| to make a lot of money from the status quo. Even if the world
| goes to shit, they're wealthy enough to insulate themselves
| from the fallout, and probably wouldn't mind being lords of the
| ashes.
| wnevets wrote:
| Nah, it snowed that one time [1].
|
| [1] https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/the-
| fix/wp/2015/02/26/ji...
| cryptoz wrote:
| Haha. They do something like this every time it snows.
|
| https://talkingpointsmemo.com/news/fox-news-buries-al-
| gore-s...
| jeffbee wrote:
| Perhaps in the same way the civil engineers signal to south
| Florida condo boards that their buildings are about to
| collapse? It's the same problem, really. Collective action by a
| political body controlled by older people who are trying to
| just hold on to their wealth until they die is impossible. We
| need new political structures to write down the capital loss on
| all the junk we built in the 20th century that has no purpose
| in the 21st, and the political will to tell a handful of people
| that yes _your_ underground mineral rights are being
| expropriated.
| 6f8986c3 wrote:
| Environmentalists fought against nuclear power for 70 years.
| The result? We burned coal.
|
| So I'm not interested. You wanted the world to burn. So let
| it burn.
| Avamander wrote:
| How much of that has actually been environmentalists and
| not a result of intentional deceptive tactics and
| undermining of public education by fossil fuel companies?
| 6f8986c3 wrote:
| Most of it has been environmentalists.
| bavent wrote:
| Can you provide some evidence of that?
| nradov wrote:
| Most of the effective opposition has come not from
| environmentalists per se, but rather from NIMBYs who
| don't want to live near a nuclear plant. After the
| incidents at Three Mile Island, Chernobyl, and Fukushima
| it's difficult to convince local residents that newer
| designs are inherently very safe. Even if they support
| nuclear power in principle they want it built somewhere
| else.
| dillondoyle wrote:
| I think about 40% of the country has been 'signaling' pretty
| hard. 30% are actively pushing for more emissions/denial. And
| the rest are sick of the infighting.
|
| Take the bipartisan infrastructure 'agreement' (not final).
| Republicans refused to do anything but support more cars...
| throwitaway1235 wrote:
| I would first want to see the study confirming this current
| heat dome is a result of climate change.
| angst_ridden wrote:
| And what would you accept as proof? Meteorological models
| showing the jet stream gets "wavier" with increased
| temperature?
| paxys wrote:
| It's easy to blame political leaders, but they are (mostly)
| elected by the general population. Here in the US ~50% of the
| people vote for climate change deniers, so they are the ones
| you need to convince.
| misiti3780 wrote:
| I hate to rain on your parade, but any solution that doesnt
| lean heavily on nuclear is not a solution.
|
| 50% of the population may be climate deniers (need a
| reference though), but there is a large group of progressives
| that loved the green new deal also, which did not include
| nuclear energy, so there is blame on both sides.
| tshaddox wrote:
| Any citation on the portion of American voters who vote for
| federal politicians who deny climate change? I suspect it's
| nowhere near 50%, even if 50% of elected officials deny
| climate change. Representation is ludicrously
| disproportionate in the United States federal government.
| TremendousJudge wrote:
| US voters didn't become climate change deniers by chance
| NDizzle wrote:
| How do US voters go about changing climate policy in China
| and India?
| freeflight wrote:
| By voting for politicians who contribute and participate
| in international regulation, like the Paris Agreement,
| instead of just quitting them.
| w-j-w wrote:
| Trade war perhaps? Against non-nuclear powers (like
| Brazil), conventional war is not off the table.
| emgeee wrote:
| I'd say voting in officials who are willing to pressure
| these nations
| fooey wrote:
| Amazingly, the GOP just last week formed a Conservative Climate
| Caucus with something around 60 members. They even explicitly
| admit climate change is man made
|
| https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/politics/2021/06/25/utah...
| dvaun wrote:
| While the topic is certainly interesting, the way that this
| article is written feels odd. It reads (to me) like GPT-generated
| text.
| IMTDb wrote:
| Maybe that's because the author is not a native english speaker
| ?
| kiloreux wrote:
| The affects of this on third world country are even worse. Here
| in Algeria we are having the worst drought in over 20 years. What
| I fear, is that if this continues to happen, people could
| literally start dying from thirst again. I wonder how good is
| desalination of sea water technology and if we could see some
| startups that explore this field, certainly a lot of people's
| lives to be changed.
| AngryData wrote:
| It isn't technology that holds back water desalination, it is
| energy availability/cost. Even the most promising desalination
| tech is only a small efficiency boost over simpler established
| methods. Yeah efficiency gains certain help over the long term,
| but the overall energy costs are still enormous and nearly
| require dedicated power plant for any significant amount of
| clean water.
|
| The best bet in actually desalinating population scale levels
| of water would be investment into nuclear power. And the
| desalination could double as a buffer for the nuclear plant so
| that it could be run at peak power and efficiency nearly full
| time.
| azernik wrote:
| There's also a capital investment problem - good equipment is
| expensive to set up, even leaving aside the operating costs
| problem.
|
| Achievable, yes, but only for the rich for now. eg Gulf Arab
| states and Israel are early adopters, the latter with some EU
| subsidies to defuse water rights as an point of conflict in
| the Jordan watershed.
| julienb_sea wrote:
| This isn't technically accurate, we have access to abundant
| long term (multi-century) reserves of natural gas which can
| be used to provide power needed for desalinization. Nuclear
| is in no way a "blocker". Certainly, cost is a substantial
| barrier especially in less wealthy nations.
| thewarrior wrote:
| Carbon emissions
| julienb_sea wrote:
| If the choice is reducing emissions or saving lives from
| dehydration, I wonder which is the appropriate course of
| action.
| thewarrior wrote:
| Which could completely destroy modern civilization over
| time. Once certain tipping points are crossed most of the
| earth could become uninhabitable for large parts of the
| year.
| azernik wrote:
| Problem is, carbon emissions make the dehydration worse
| by heating up the planet. It's counterproductive.
| pmontra wrote:
| Probably something else.
|
| Gas burns and makes CO2 which increases temperature which
| increases the likelihood of more dehydration events in
| future. This is the wrong choice. Actually the long term
| right choice is not to burn gas anymore.
|
| Letting people die is obviously the wrong choice too.
|
| When all choices are wrong we must find another choice
| that can be right. Somebody wrote solar energy, somebody
| wrote nuclear energy, somebody argued that both are
| wrong. I don't suggest a solution but I point out that
| limiting ourselves to binary choices is the wrong way to
| think.
| nradov wrote:
| That's true from an engineering standpoint, but many of the
| places which are short of fresh water also lack the capital
| and industrial infrastructure to support large nuclear
| plants. Solar power seems more realistic from an economic and
| political standpoint, even if less efficient.
| Someone wrote:
| If it's extremely hot, using solar energy should IMO be the
| first choice.
|
| I don't find https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solar_desalination
| an easy read, but I think it says using PV to get electricity
| and that electricity to drive reverse osmosis is one of the
| best solutions.
|
| Certainly, given that solar power is cheaper than nuclear (in
| the current political climate), nuclear can't be the better
| choice for peak loads, which happen when there's a lot of
| sunlight.
| _ph_ wrote:
| Wouldn't solar be much better for powering desalination than
| nuclear power? It is way cheaper per energy produced than
| nuclear, especially in those countries, which need
| desalination most. Also, it doesn't take a decade to set up.
| Not even mentioning proliferation issues.
| bin_bash wrote:
| Solar doesn't provide nearly as much energy and for
| desalination you need a surprising amount.
|
| Nuclear is a great use-case since the problem with nuclear
| is it needs a constant water source. If you're desalinating
| you've got that problem covered.
| state_less wrote:
| Yes, solar is dirt cheap energy and you wouldn't need much
| of a battery (or any?) in this case, since you can store
| the excess product water in a tank.
|
| I power my water maker with about 1400 watts and can make
| 35 gallons an hour. The panels, electronics and water maker
| were ~ $5000. I did the work myself at a slow pace, so not
| sure what the labor costs would be.
|
| I set my system up in about 2 weeks. The requirements are a
| bit of time, seawater access and some capital.
|
| https://seawaterpro.com/
| Taek wrote:
| I'm not celebrating people dying of thirst, but I also think
| that's the only thing that will get the world properly focused
| on the issue. We need to make big structural changes to the
| global economy to fight climate change, and those changes are
| going to have an outsized negative impact on today's wealthiest
| and most powerful people. They aren't going to let change
| happen without a fight.
|
| People dying is what it's going to take to muster up enough of
| a fight to make the actual change. But the sooner we can hit
| the panic button and get people focused on the magnitude of the
| issue, the less people that need to die to get the population
| properly motivated.
| FridayoLeary wrote:
| >People dying is what it's going to take to muster up enough
| of a fight to make the actual change.
|
| No it wont. If anything it will just start a war and/or
| a(nother) refugee crisis. Plus dead people. I think hoping
| for disasters to catalyst change is a sadly naive worldview.
|
| >we can hit the panic button
|
| What panic button? Where?
| neaanopri wrote:
| People dying in Algeria won't realistically get the US,
| French, or Chinese governments to significantly cut fossil
| fuels supplied to their citizens.
| Someone wrote:
| France would react. If people start mass dying in Algeria,
| many of them will try to get to Europe.
|
| Algeria being a former French colony, being close by, and
| already having a large population of Algerian descent
| (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Algerians_in_France says
| there are 10 million people of Algerian origin in France.
| That's over 10% of the population), France probably will be
| a major destination.
| wait_a_minute wrote:
| USA and France are actually doing well on renewables and
| nuclear even. Whereas China is still building a shit-ton of
| new coal plants.
|
| https://ieefa.org/france-boosts-renewable-energy-spending-
| to...
|
| https://www.nytimes.com/2020/05/13/climate/coronavirus-
| coal-...
|
| https://e360.yale.edu/features/despite-pledges-to-cut-
| emissi...
| 908B64B197 wrote:
| I assume China is also taking in a proportional amount of
| climate refugees as well.
| beders wrote:
| About China:
|
| https://www.bcg.com/publications/2020/how-china-can-
| achieve-...
| rmah wrote:
| China is also the world's leading producer of solar cells
| (over 70%) and the world's leading _user_ of solar power
| (about 33% of global solar power).
|
| China is also, by far, the leading producer and user of
| electric cars with almost half of the production and
| sales (more electric cars are sold in china than western
| europe + US combined). Half of all EV's in the world are
| driving around in China.
|
| Further, chinese people use a fraction of the electricity
| that north americans do. Canada: 14,600 kWh/yr, USA:
| 12,150 kWh/yr, China: 5,300 kWh/yr.
|
| In terms of CO2 emissions, it's the same story: USA:
| 17.6T/yr, Canada: 15.7T/yr, China: 6.4T/yr, on a per
| capita basis.
|
| It's hard to remember what with the shiny new tier 1
| coastal cities, but try not to forget that, on average,
| china is still quite poor with only 1/4th to 1/5th the
| per capita income of the richer advanced economy nations
| like the US, Sweden, UK, Germany, Japan, etc. China is on
| par with Mexico, Malaysia, Panama, Russia, or Bulgaria.
|
| In short, the story is not so simple.
| marshray wrote:
| IMO, per captia measures only matters for countries that
| allow unrestricted internal movement.
|
| China strictly controls how many people are allowed to
| migrate from the countryside to work in the cities, so it
| is, in some respects, multiple distinct economies with a
| centrally controlled standard of living.
| petre wrote:
| Guess what Algeria's first three main export products are?
| Crude petroleum, petroleum gas and refined petroleum.
| They're trying to diversify but it's too litlle, too late.
| AngryData wrote:
| Plastics and polymers certainly aren't going away anytime
| soon so its not like a renewable energy world would just
| kill them. I don't expect plastic production to actually
| contract until long after we have made the grid
| renewable/sustainable and have extra energy for active
| carbon sequestering. Disposable plastic from grocery bags
| and simple wrappers are easy to reduce and eliminate but
| how many consumer devices are made of just metal or wood
| now and aren't 95% plastic? Plastic is still replacing
| tons of metal piping and ducts and on cars and everything
| else. When is the last time anyone has seen a wooden
| handled screwdriver for sale?
| mbostleman wrote:
| How do we know this is the result of climate change? It's
| meant as an honest question. Though it is largely ignored in
| the mainstream discussion, I've heard for years to be careful
| about making a distinction between weather and climate. Are
| you thinking this is not weather, but climate? How does one
| tell the difference? If there's a record winter of cold
| temps, would it be evidence that the climate is cooling?
| retrac wrote:
| I don't mean to be dismissive, but simple statistics. A
| record winter by itself is just a freak incident. As is a
| record hot summer. But what are the probabilities? One
| record cold day broken after 80 years? Improbable but not
| downright implausible. Year after year after year of record
| highs? Just coincidence?
| mbostleman wrote:
| Makes sense. I don't have a good grasp on what the actual
| data is over time. My primary awareness is the extreme
| events that make the news.
| jbotz wrote:
| There are actually scientific methods for attributing
| specific events to global warming or not,
| probabilistically. I.e. although you can never say with
| perfect certainty "this heatwave was caused by global
| warming", you can say: with global warming this heatwave
| has a probability 0.1 (once in ten years), but without
| global warming it would have a probability of 0.001 (once
| in a thousand years).
|
| We seem to be having several "once in a thousand years"
| heatwaves per decade these days.
| mbostleman wrote:
| Gotcha.
| lostcolony wrote:
| I'm not even optimistic about that. Because it'll be the
| -poor- people dying.
| _jal wrote:
| People dying will not change the minds that need changing.
|
| The people who profit from the current state of affairs need
| to be convinced to modify their plans. Perhaps there are
| other ways to persuade them, but fear of something worse than
| not profiting from their current investment plans is the only
| thing I can think of at this point.
| nradov wrote:
| What will force the issue isn't people dying, but rather
| masses of climate refugees fleeing countries that are no
| longer habitable and moving toward the poles.
| skeeter2020 wrote:
| For the same reasons we make fun of climate-change deniers
| who say "look at this record cold winter; there's no global
| warming" means we can't use a historic heat wave to say "look
| globaal warming".
|
| weather != climate
| shkkmo wrote:
| A heat wave (like other weather) by itself isn't evidence
| of global warming, but extreme weather events like this
| (and like extreme winter storms) are made more frequent by
| global warming. You should expect to see more "once in a
| millenium" weather events as the planet continues to warm.
| tclancy wrote:
| So you're saying things getting constantly warmer isn't
| evidence because people who don't want to see it do the
| opposite? Math definitely checks out.
| anamexis wrote:
| > For the same reasons we make fun of climate-change
| deniers who say "look at this record cold winter; there's
| no global warming" means we can't use a historic heat wave
| to say "look globaal warming".
|
| We make fun of the climate change deniers in this scenario
| because the cold winter often _is_ evidence of climate
| change. Record heat waves can _also_ be evidence of climate
| change.
| edoceo wrote:
| What is the number? Hella people already dying and we (USA)
| ain't doing shit.
|
| The haute bourgeoisie will not, have not done anything to
| help.
|
| Mike Muir was right. Give it revolution!!
| tshaddox wrote:
| > but I also think that's the only thing that will get the
| world properly focused on the issue.
|
| Or, that will just get the rest of the nations of the world
| to focus on preventing climate refugees from entering _their_
| nation, and perhaps use their militaries to secure remaining
| resources.
| heavyset_go wrote:
| > _I 'm not celebrating people dying of thirst, but I also
| think that's the only thing that will get the world properly
| focused on the issue_
|
| Millions of people die from AIDS, malaria, and the lack of
| potable water and food each year. But most of those deaths
| happen other continents, so nothing is done about it.
|
| The transmission of HIV could be virtually ended in the US
| with drugs like PrEP that have been on the market for a
| decade, halting a 30+ year AIDS pandemic. That didn't happen,
| and PrEP's price in the US rose from $1200 to $2400 for a
| 30-day supply in 2019, despite costing ~$40 retail in other
| first world countries. Now that one formulation recently
| became generic, it costs $1400 retail, or $600 with coupons,
| for a 30-day supply. As of 2020 there is a program for those
| without insurance, but if you're a working adult with
| insurance, you aren't eligible.
|
| As long as there is money to be made, people dying will be
| acceptable to those in power.
| martythemaniak wrote:
| These folks are serious and they just raised 30 million to
| provide vast quantities of cheap, desalinated water:
|
| https://www.terraformation.com/
|
| Seems crazy now, but vast forests covering most of Algeria may
| be entirely possible in your lifetime.
| rmah wrote:
| Vast quantities? LOL, their plant in hawaii does only 128
| tons a day. Americans use 3 tons a day. Each. Even relatively
| thrifty nations use over a 1 ton a day per person.
|
| Hardly "vast quantities". And it's not cheap, they're
| currently using "reclaimed" solar panels to provide power. At
| scale, this not possible and not cheap.
|
| More to the point, their main goal is to plant and grow
| trees, not provide fresh water.
| shoto_io wrote:
| I totally agree. Just note that heat (higher than average
| temperatures) doesn't necessarily translates into drought (the
| absence of precipitation).
| 908B64B197 wrote:
| Again? Didn't the Romans build aqueduct there 2000 years ago?
| [deleted]
| kmerroll wrote:
| All right, but apart from the sanitation, the medicine,
| education, wine, public order, irrigation, roads, a fresh
| water system, and public health, what have the Romans ever
| done for us?
| londons_explore wrote:
| Nearly all of earth has plenty of water for drinking...
|
| The thing we don't have enough for in many places is
| agriculture, industry, watering lawns, bathing, etc.
|
| Although as usual the human problem of doing a suboptimal job
| of allocating a scarce resource applies...
| Arrath wrote:
| Most desalination methods are unfortunately quite energy
| intensive, and produce a concentrated brine that has
| environmental/disposal concerns such that it can't just be
| pumped back into the ocean, really.
|
| It presents a difficult problem for entrepreneurs to tackle.
| Definitely the potential to change people's lives for the
| better, though.
| Izikiel43 wrote:
| Is brine useful for something?
| djxfade wrote:
| For pickles?
| raidicy wrote:
| Stupid question. Can't we just let the brine evaporate and
| then compress the minerals left over?
| _rpd wrote:
| This is a common method of salt production ...
|
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sea_salt
| nradov wrote:
| In theory sure, but that would consume huge areas of
| valuable coastal real estate. And we don't really need more
| salt.
| nradov wrote:
| Most desalination plants do just pump the brine back into the
| ocean. That isn't ideal from a marine conservation standpoint
| but if the outflow pipe runs out deep enough then it's not
| too bad.
| Arrath wrote:
| If it's not ideal right now, how well does it scale if more
| and more desalination plants come online to meet freshwater
| demands, and dispose of their brine in the same manner?
| tinco wrote:
| It's not ideal if the brine is dumped in one location. If
| it is dumped deep enough it gets a chance to be diluted
| before it hurts the environment.
|
| In the end, all fresh water goes back to the ocean so
| it's not like we would be creating an imbalance, there's
| just a risk of causing local damage.
| Arrath wrote:
| Yeah the local imbalance is what worries me. I have a
| mental image of a big long 'soaker hose' style brine
| dumping pipe rather than a single outlet, that way the
| brine is further diluted. Wonder how much that helps.
| _rpd wrote:
| The "brine" at the outlet pipe is just 2-3% saltier than
| the ocean water at the intake pipe. The impact is not
| zero, but it is very low if done right.
| akiselev wrote:
| The global water cycle is the embodiment of scale and
| even though engineers would learn a lot of interesting
| new things and make mistakes in the process of
| implementing desalination at scale, the brine problem is
| trivially solvable with existing technology like longer
| pipes and flow control (changing the exhaust
| concentration based on ocean currents and seasonal
| factors).
|
| The problem is the criminal mispricing of water in most
| of the world. Anything that interacts with saltwater -
| especially brine - is in a completely different class of
| infrastructure that requires constant maintenance,
| something that most political systems are especially bad
| at. It's compounded by the artificially low price of
| water and accompanying lack of funds.
|
| Humans have built over _three million_ kilometers of
| natural gas and oil pipelines globally. The longest
| undersea pipeline is over 1,200 km long, which is at
| least twenty times longer than the longest pipelines we
| 'd need to build for ideal brine dispersion in the worst
| case geographies. For better or worse, the problems with
| desalination are economic and political, not
| technological. We just need to spread out our impact so
| that it's within the margin of error of ocean currents
| and evaporation.
| twobitshifter wrote:
| Even temperatures alone are getting into the deadly range in
| terms of wet bulb temperatures.
|
| https://www.telegraph.co.uk/global-health/climate-and-people...
| PicassoCTs wrote:
| First we deny (which costs energy/money), then we wall the
| problem off (which costs energy/money) - the moment it
| overwhelms us, we have neither energy nor money left.
| FridayoLeary wrote:
| I just know that Israel are pioneers in this field. Water
| scarcity has always been a problem in Israel. (the chief
| solution to this has been, unfortunately, to starve the Salt
| Sea of water.)
| Izikiel43 wrote:
| I'm from a 3rd world country and its the first time in Canada
| it's as hot as back there, with the difference people here don't
| have AC, so lots of people are dying from the heat.
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