[HN Gopher] Bob's Game
___________________________________________________________________
Bob's Game
Author : nonbirithm
Score : 153 points
Date : 2021-06-29 22:45 UTC (1 days ago)
(HTM) web link (en.wikipedia.org)
(TXT) w3m dump (en.wikipedia.org)
| smudgy wrote:
| Atrocity Guide has a video on Bob's Game:
|
| https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A47maEySTdI
| umvi wrote:
| Wikipedia only touches on the true madness of the thing.
|
| See: https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/bobsgame/bobs-game
|
| Highlights:
|
| > Developed from scratch in C and completely rewritten in Java as
| an MMO, as far as I can tell, "bob's game" may still be one of
| the largest games (if not the largest) by one person!
|
| > "bob's game" is a game about a puzzle game called 'bob's game,'
| developed within the game by the virtual "bob" character, the
| "final boss" of the game. It is a hybrid between Zelda, Pokemon,
| Harvest Moon, and Earthbound, with massively multiplayer
| elements.
|
| > The 'bob's game' puzzle game inside the "bob's game" RPG is a
| puzzle game in which you can build your own puzzle games,
| including all existing types! It is the greatest puzzle game ever
| made, and the only puzzle game objectively better than Tetris."
|
| > "bob's game" blends the line between reality and simulation,
| and reality and extra-dimensional reality. "bob's game" breaks
| both the so-called "4th wall" and further yet- the "5th wall,"
| unlocking the secrets of "the Matrix," or "the Womb" as it is
| referred to in some editions of the Bible. "bob's game" reveals
| the nature of the universe for what it really is to a generation
| that needs it the most. "bob's game" is the most important thing
| to happen to mankind in hundreds, if not thousands of years.
|
| > "bob's game" is the vehicle for a prophecy, written by a "self
| taught" "genius" "prophet." It carries within it a message that
| will revolutionize society and change the world. It is the
| beginning of a new era for mankind.
|
| > "bob's game" actually alters reality itself for those who play
| it. It is a key into another dimension. It teaches the secrets of
| the heart, the secrets of mind control and psychic power to a
| generation that has has the wool pulled over their eyes by
| criminal syndicates.
|
| > "bob's game" is the ultimate cult game. It is a new religion
| for the modern world, inspired by and intended as a natural
| spiritual successor to previous disguised religion games such as
| Earthbound and Zelda and movie retellings of an ancient spellbook
| (The Old Testament) such as "The Matrix."
|
| > In 2008, after demoing it to Nintendo and turning down a job
| offer (I'd rather work on my own game!), I showed it on the
| internet in hopes that I would attract some publishers. Several
| of them were interested! After deciding on one and moving near
| their headquarters in New Jersey, unfortunately, Nintendo was
| hesitant to license me- even though I had an office, funds, and
| met all the qualifications. knowing I would have to rewrite the
| whole thing to get it on other platforms, I threw a meta-protest
| viral ad thing. Trying to be like my favorite band Nine Inch
| Nails recent "Year Zero" viral campaign, I devised an intense and
| clever alternate reality website that tied into the game story to
| drum up some attention and try to get Nintendo to license me
| anyway.
|
| > I slowly learned how we are tricked by desire and greed and
| kept weak and blinded by criminal syndicates. I realized that is
| what I had been fighting against the whole time, subconsciously!
| Even more incredible, I learned what humans are truly capable of-
| discovering that we are indeed magical creatures with psychic
| powers! It's the greatest trick in history- we are all great
| wizards, reduced to spending our lives so distracted, we never
| even realize our own power!
|
| Also, apparently there was a $2 million stretch goal (since
| deleted) that said (according to reddit):
|
| > The Bob's Game Corporation will purchase and renovate a large
| gothic church in Detroit and surround it with green and purple
| spotlights, razor wire, and RoboCop "ED-209" style drone sentries
| as the "bob's game" headquarters and final tournament location.
| "bob" will establish himself as a real-life video game villain,
| dominating the world's children through the use of dark ritual
| magic infused technology.
|
| This guy is either one of the greatest trolls of our time or else
| he is very mentally unstable...
| arduinomancer wrote:
| This feels a lot like reading about TempleOS
| ChrisArchitect wrote:
| Previous discussion:
|
| _13 years ago_ Indie Game Developer does 100 day protest
| Nintendo https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=412757
|
| _8 years ago_ About the Kickstarter
| https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6908321
| andrewclunn wrote:
| I backed him on Kickstarter. Not the craziest or most dishonest
| failed project I backed. It was a coin flip on whether you'd
| actually get a finished product back in the day. No idea how it
| is now.
| Brendinooo wrote:
| Has anyone here played it? How's the actual gameplay?
| GranPC wrote:
| The full game was never released, only two/three demos. The
| first demo was distributed as Nintendo DS homebrew and
| contained a fetch quest, some dialogue and the first minigame.
| The second demo was released for the PC and included demo 1,
| some more roaming around & dialogue, two additional minigames,
| and an unskippable cutscene at the end where "bob" laughs for
| over two minutes.
|
| The third demo was also released for the PC, originally
| playable in an embedded Java applet in the browser, and doesn't
| contain much of the RPG - it's mostly just bob's game (the
| puzzle game inside "bob's game")
|
| So it's a bit hard to tell how the actual gameplay of the whole
| thing could have been, you don't get to explore the world much
| in these demos.
| ghthor wrote:
| We might get to play the whole thing eventually, hes still
| working on it!
| msoucy wrote:
| Oh man. I remember this as it was coming out. It was certainly a
| wild ride... I was in high school at the time and didn't know how
| to react to the whole protest thing. I remember I played the heck
| out of the demo that he released for the Nintendo DS - the Tetris
| parody in-game, "Tetrid", was a bit of a mindbend, and could
| probably cause seizures, but the deformed block shapes made an
| interesting puzzle.
| stalco wrote:
| this? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C6jw8fv-XsQ
| GranPC wrote:
| Nope, that's bob's game (the game that "bob's game" is about)
| - which is a mishmash of many different puzzle games into
| one. Tetrid is inside bob's game, and it's also the first
| minigame you encounter inside "bob's game". This is it:
| https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cP8nmaVWjDE
| dang wrote:
| We invited a repost of this article (related to the second-chance
| pool - see https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26998308) because
| HN loves stories of original single-person projects, especially
| where the developer has persisted over years and has some kind of
| unique vision.
|
| I didn't read it closely, and I hope we didn't accidentally bring
| unwanted attention to someone's personal struggle. Bob, if you're
| reading this, we wish you all the best. Commenters, if you're
| reading this, please be kind and let's not have any sort of
| garish spectacle.
| genjipress wrote:
| Essentially, TempleOS, but a video game.
| imjustsaying wrote:
| One might anticipate a racing sequel featuring alphabet agents
| that glow.
| ddtaylor wrote:
| Repo: https://github.com/bobsgame/bobsgame/ (deleted, see edit
| below)
|
| I looked at it a few weeks back and it's really strange. It has
| really weird restrictions that don't make any sense regarding the
| license - I'm not even sure if they even are legal. The author
| claims he is sharing the source but that nobody else can fork it,
| unless they fork it on GitHub?!
|
| Anyhow, within a few seconds of reading the source you'll find
| that the first thing the binary does is call home to download and
| extract a newer .zip file from the bobsgame.com website.
|
| It does this over HTTP and without any kind of signature/signing
| of the binary.
|
| Before it actually downloads the .zip file it actually tries to
| grab a version number from a PHP script on the website that
| doesn't exist. The website instead renders some HTML. The C++
| casts this HTML to a number and gets 0, so it always assumes that
| the website does not have a newer version of the game to
| download.
|
| This means if someone on the local network can DNS spoof the
| website it will dutifully talk over unauthenticated HTTP, the
| attacker can actually provide a PHP script that responds with a
| high version number and then deliver the payload over a .zip
| file.
|
| It's a fascinating tale!
|
| EDIT: It does appear the author has been removing things =( His
| GitHub has been wiped clean https://github.com/robertpelloni
|
| If anyone is curious here is a fork of the repository I was
| trying to link: https://github.com/mpavlinsky/bobsgame
| rozab wrote:
| GitHub ToS requires you to allow others to fork your code on
| GH. This policy leads to a lot of bizarre licensing decisions
| on the site.
|
| https://docs.github.com/en/github/site-policy/github-terms-o...
| BugsJustFindMe wrote:
| It's currently still archived by Software Heritage
| https://archive.softwareheritage.org/browse/search/?q=https%...
| shawabawa3 wrote:
| Looks like the repo has been deleted
| WoodenChair wrote:
| Your link is already 404ing a minute after you posted it. Is it
| possible Bob is reading this thread and already removed it?
| ddtaylor wrote:
| It appears so. I've updated the comment with a fresh link.
| dec0dedab0de wrote:
| _I looked at it a few weeks back and it 's really strange. It
| has really weird restrictions that don't make any sense
| regarding the license - I'm not even sure if they even are
| legal. The author claims he is sharing the source but that
| nobody else can fork it, unless they fork it on GitHub?!_
|
| I don't know if the wording is legalease enough to be enforced,
| but of course a license like this is legal. Just because you
| can see the source code doesn't automatically grant you any
| privileges with it. He is saying he is only allowing unmodified
| redistribution. With an exception that you are allowed to
| distribute a modified version of the source code for the sole
| purpose of submitting a pull request.
|
| One problem he might get into is if accepts non-trivial pull
| requests, then the contributors copyright would come into play,
| and things could get hairy.
| jcranmer wrote:
| The first two clauses of the license are the BSD-2-Clause
| license, nothing weird or unusual there.
|
| The third clause is... interesting. I suspect it's probably
| legal, but it may well have unintended consequences because
| it appears to be requiring you to use a trademark.
|
| The fourth clause may fall afoul of First Sale Doctrine. It's
| something that I wouldn't trust without talking to an IP
| lawyer to work out what it actually means and how much is
| actually viable to be done in an open source license.
|
| The fifth clause is nullified by the terms of GitHub, I
| think, as GitHub's ToS seems to require you to allow anyone
| to fork your repository without encumbrance, which the fifth
| clause tries to narrow.
| meibo wrote:
| HTTP/unsigned patches are frighteningly common in the video
| game world.
|
| One of the major MMOs doesn't do either and has some other
| nasty stuff like easily stealable login tokens over the
| network.
| jart wrote:
| > #bob's game is: ##THE GREATEST PUZZLE GAME EVER MADE [...]
| bob's game is "source available" [...] but not "Open Source"
| That means no forks except to create pull requests!
|
| Would you consider deleting your fork? It goes against the
| author's wishes and I don't feel comfortable gawking at someone
| who might be experiencing health issues. He's clearly trying to
| distance himself from the attention it's received.
| ddtaylor wrote:
| I don't have any forks of his code, it's the first result for
| searching for the repo on GitHub. In either case, I do
| believe once the source code to something has been released
| it's fair to continue to archive it.
| jart wrote:
| Did you bring the security vulnerabilities you discovered
| to his attention before disclosing them on hacker news?
| Regardless of what you think is fair it's pretty clear you
| aren't acting with his best interests in mind.
| ddtaylor wrote:
| Full disclosure is the most responsible disclosure.
| duxup wrote:
| Telling users here (some I'm sure will / would download
| the code) seems entirely acting with the user's best
| interests in mind.
| moon2 wrote:
| Here's an interesting video by Atrocity Guide that talks about
| it. https://youtu.be/A47maEySTdI
| duxup wrote:
| This kinda seems like just someone throwing a fit that Nintendo
| didn't give them an SDK / support their game?
|
| There's more to making a game than just making the code and
| hoping someone supports your efforts. From the wikipedia page, I
| don't find the story all that sympathetic, at least as far as vs
| Nintendo.
|
| Story seems more like one of a troll or mental illness, and kinda
| sad.
| bogwog wrote:
| I don't think that's a fair assessment. If it is mental
| illness, it's probably the same illness that leads people to
| become independent artists in the first place.
|
| He mentioned that he got an offer to work for Nintendo and lead
| his own team by a rep at GDC, but he turned it down because he
| didn't understand what they were offering him. I could 100%
| believe that because I could 100% see myself doing the same
| thing.
|
| He also later said that the ridiculous behavior was all a viral
| marketing stunt gone wrong, which, again, I 100% believe
| because I could see myself...maybe not _actually doing it_ ,
| but certainly coming up with a similar idea to get attention
| for the project I worked so hard on.
|
| IMO the best thing for him to do is lay low until everyone
| forgets about him, so that he can release his game in the
| future, maybe under a different title. Although that might be
| hard because it seems the Youtube documentary crowd has started
| to shine a spotlight on him recently (that's how I learned
| about this guy a few weeks ago)
|
| Also, he did release a game titled "Bob's Game" on Steam, but
| it was a puzzle game rather than an RPG. I think the idea was
| that the RPG told the story of a game developer named Bob who
| was working on a game, and the game he released was the game
| developed by the Bob character in the RPG. It's a pretty cool
| concept, and I really hope this guy gets around to releasing
| the full thing some day.
| hellotomyrars wrote:
| I find it very hard to believe that Nintendo, especially
| Nintendo of that era, would have offered him a job to lead a
| team.
|
| I think it is pretty clear based on his behavior and the
| things he has said that he has some very serious issues. I
| won't discount his talent, he clearly has talent and skill,
| though he hasn't made good on a lot of the promises he made
| and boasted of.
|
| My sincerest hope is that he would get the help he needs and
| use it to focus his energy and talent into his projects
| because as it is I don't think there will ever be anything
| resembling his original vision formally released, and that is
| a shame for everyone.
| duxup wrote:
| >He also later said that the ridiculous behavior was all a
| viral marketing stunt gone wrong
|
| If that's the case ... still seems like 'guy throwing fit'.
| jonny_eh wrote:
| The sad/hopeful thing is that if this were to occur today,
| they'd likely have a much easier chance to publish on the
| Switch (or PS4/5 or Xbox). The big platforms have really
| loosened up access to their stores and SDKs.
| bogwog wrote:
| > The big platforms have really loosened up access to their
| stores and SDKs.
|
| If by "the big platforms" you mean Nintendo and Xbox, then
| yes. Sony is still as shitty about it as ever.
|
| The only difference today is that it's certainly easier to
| find a publisher who has an SDK, so you don't have to apply
| for one yourself.
|
| IIRC, getting approved for a Sony SDK requires a hefty down
| payment, proof of a physical office space, and you have to
| submit the resumes of your development team and hope Sony
| thinks they're good enough. Then you have to wait many months
| to hear back. I think you even need to have a project under
| development, or at least a complete design document.
| zxzax wrote:
| How does that even work in practice? Does the team have to
| ship a bunch of successful Switch and Xbox games first
| before their resumes are viewed as good enough? And it
| seems like they would have to plan to ship the project
| under development on one of those other consoles, just in
| case they don't get approved?
| duxup wrote:
| Agreed, better chance to publish.
|
| Although, not sure what would get published, there's not much
| of a game that anyone has ever seen according to the posts on
| HN.
|
| Not sure access to an SDK was really the biggest challenge.
| dec0dedab0de wrote:
| Interestingly enough, I bet the idea of staying in a room with a
| shower, and food delivery for 100 days doesn't seem like that big
| of deal to most people anymore.
| shkkmo wrote:
| It's the "no internet access" part that puts it outside of most
| people's experience still.
| thih9 wrote:
| This was couple of years ago; at that time internet wasn't
| that popular or practical (even though it was still extremely
| popular and practical). Perhaps today that rule wouldn't be
| there.
| jgon wrote:
| Isn't that basically solitary confinement, something we
| consider to be cruel and unusual punishment? I would actually
| challenge anyone to make it past 30 or even 50 days under those
| circumstances without losing it. I bet it is much, _much_
| harder than you think.
| netr0ute wrote:
| Most people did exactly that a year ago.
| moate wrote:
| "Most" people did not go through the pandemic entirely
| alone. The vast majority of people in the world live with
| _someone_ (roommate, family, romantic partner, etc).
|
| Also, depending on where you live in the world, "most"
| people did not stay entirely away from all humans at all
| times for more than a few weeks. Plenty of people were
| buying their own groceries, and leaving the house for other
| tasks.
|
| "Many people were isolated from the outside world in ways
| they haven't been previously during the pandemic lockdowns'
| is a perfectly cromulent and accurate statement, but I
| don't get this "let's compare the pandemic to some man
| doing a dramatic publicity stunt for his game, possibly due
| to underlying mental health issues."
|
| /rant
| [deleted]
| overgard wrote:
| There's a lot of crazy in here, but I can relate in a way.
|
| When I was young (a teenager), I really wanted to be a video game
| designer. Well, more than a designer, I wanted to be a full on
| creator, a rock star like Sid Meier or John Carmack.
|
| So I started making a game engine. I didn't really know exactly
| what I was making, I just had various ideas that I was collecting
| and coming up with and attaching to this game engine. At first it
| was pretty impressive, I had written a 3d first person shooter
| game engine from scratch at like 13 years old. I had made all the
| art myself (badly). I made a few demos for competitions, even won
| some of them and got some prizes. At a certain point though, I
| was just too attached to all this work I had put into this game
| engine, but I had no idea what I really wanted to make with it,
| because I honestly kind of sucked at game design and writing and
| never really put in the time to learn those disciplines. So I
| became weirdly attached to my "game", even though it wasn't
| really much of anything concrete. And realistically my game
| engine was "impressive for a 14 year old" but not impressive
| overall.
|
| Luckily, I didn't fall into crazy mental illness like this guy.
| At some point after tinkering with it for a few years I realized
| it was a lost cause because I didn't know what to do with it.
|
| The trap a lot of creatives or potential-creatives fall into is
| falling in love with a project that isn't going anywhere. If you
| want to be a creative person, you need to know how to spin a lot
| of plates and let go of something if it has just run out of
| steam. I think in Bob's case, it's clear that this project was
| always attached to his identity rather than simply being a
| project. (I mean, it's in the name). That's really dangerous. You
| aren't your work. You should never let a project, an art piece,
| even a company, become your identity.
|
| Bob locking himself in a room as a protest is obviously crazy;
| but I think in a way it becomes more understandable when you
| realize that this wasn't just a project to him, it was his entire
| identity. Nintendo was essentially denying him what he thought to
| be his existence. That's totally bananas on his part, but I think
| that covers why someone would do something like that.
| kh_hk wrote:
| ouch.. that hit home
| SCNP wrote:
| Your description reminded me a lot of TempleOS. Another project
| created from scratch by a single developer (possibly with
| mental illness) that is going nowhere.
| elliottcarlson wrote:
| Terry Davis was diagnosed with schizophrenia; has passed away
| in 2018.
| caymanjim wrote:
| You're thinking of Terry Davis[1]. No doubt about the mental
| illness. He died a few years ago, and I don't think anyone
| else is developing TempleOS.
|
| [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terry_A._Davis
| EtherTyper wrote:
| There's multiple semi-active forks of TempleOS.
|
| https://github.com/ZenithOS/ZenithOS
| https://github.com/minexew/Shrine
| https://github.com/tinkeros/TinkerOS
| tudorw wrote:
| my work is my life is my art, are you sure you are not at least
| partly your work, I find it an odd idea that you can detach
| work from 'life' as if it exists in a separate continuum.
| shawabawa3 wrote:
| from his website it seems like his protest might have caused him
| to lose his grip on reality... https://bobsgame.com/ or perhaps a
| mental illness was what caused him to lock himself in his room
| for a 100 days in the first place
| MrBuddyCasino wrote:
| Oh wow, that smells a lot like Terry A. Davis v2.0. I'm looking
| forward to HolyC++.
| GranPC wrote:
| Bob did actually meet Terry A. Davis at some point, around
| 3-4 years ago!
| hypertele-Xii wrote:
| Is it contagious?
| GranPC wrote:
| That's not a very nice thing to say about two individuals
| that you probably haven't ever spoken to.
| saiojd wrote:
| Wow, that site is really quite something. Reads like an art
| piece.
| WoodenChair wrote:
| I had never heard about this, but my first reaction is that I
| feel bad for this guy, because if you consider that he was self
| taught he really was very talented. Checkout the gameplay videos.
| He wrote all of that himself in C++ and did the graphics with
| seemingly no training. I'm not saying it would've been a great
| game, because I don't know that, just that he as an individual
| could've been successful.
|
| I read the book Blood, Sweat, and Pixels [0] last year and it
| includes the story of the guy who created Stardew Valley. He also
| spent five years on it, working alone. He also was self taught
| and did the graphics himself. It was even kind of a similar type
| of game. I actually think Bob could've made Stardew Valley. It
| sounds like mental illness got in the way. One question we have
| to ask ourselves is what came first--the mental illness or the
| game development. Did the whole experience of the isolated game
| development actually lead to the mental illness?
|
| By the way, I don't recommend Blood, Sweat, and Pixels as a
| whole, but I do recommend the chapter on Stardew Valley. It's
| inspirational (or fatiguing because that guy worked so hard with
| no clear reward coming) for indie developers.
|
| [0]: https://amzn.to/3ya9Y6A
|
| Edit Addition: I feel bad for writing about the developer in the
| past tense. There is no reason he couldn't still be successful in
| life.
| danbolt wrote:
| I bought Blood, Sweat, and Pixels because I want to support
| Jason Schreier and the sort of nonfiction he's writing, but
| I've been reading it after coming off Masters of Doom and it
| just doesn't hit the same.
| folkhack wrote:
| > One question we have to ask ourselves is what came first--the
| mental illness or the game development
|
| Just watched the "Bob vs. Nintendo" documentary where they
| quote some weird autobiography he posted to his site where he
| admits to killing a kitten earlier in his life:
|
| > "I got a kitten, named it Mew, and accidentally killed it the
| first night I had it. I was stoned, and it woke me up somehow.
| I got angry and put it in a big plastic bucket in the closet,
| half asleep and confused. In the morning it was dead - it had
| suffocated. [...] I shoved me further into a haze"
|
| The thought of that is horrifying to me. This guy has clear
| impulse control issues and reminds me of someone who's
| BPD/manic enough that their actions killed an innocent animal.
| "I was stoned and angry" isn't a valid excuse for suffocating
| an animal - this guy is wired wrong. Assuming this event
| happened before the whole "Bob's Game" fiasco I'd definitely
| say the mental illness came first.
|
| I'm going to go pet my cat now...
| sva_ wrote:
| _> He wrote all of that himself in C++ and did the graphics
| with seemingly no training._
|
| From the Wikipedia article:
|
| _> The author says that he wrote the game originally in C,
| switched then to Java, and later converted it with an automatic
| code converter to C++._
| WoodenChair wrote:
| Okay, whether C or C++ or Java, the point is writing the game
| without ever having an industry job or educational situation
| where you'd have mentorship is a huge accomplishment.
| elliekelly wrote:
| There's an Apple TV+ original show called Mythic Quest[1] about
| a video game company and they did a really great episode about
| game development and mental health. The show is mostly a comedy
| and written by some of the people from Always Sunny.
|
| [1]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mythic_Quest
| Taylor_OD wrote:
| Very good video on the topic. It's odd.
| https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A47maEySTdI
| alickz wrote:
| Great channel
|
| I particularly liked the Ulillillia and Nasubi videos
| tombert wrote:
| I watch the Ulillillia video whenever I feel depressed about
| the world. It's excellent and bizarrely kind of inspiring to
| me.
| entelechy0 wrote:
| same af
| redisman wrote:
| I remember following him and Bobs game back in the day.
| Outsider art for video games
| GranPC wrote:
| Take that video with a big grain of salt - some of the
| information there is incorrect and the timeline is somewhat
| wrong.
| Taylor_OD wrote:
| Do you have a better overview? The video did bounce around a
| bit but what was incorrect?
| GranPC wrote:
| I'd have to watch it over again but here are some details I
| remember being wrong:
|
| - The "live video feed" on the homepage was not actually a
| live video feed for a long time - it was the same images on
| a loop.
|
| - The Nintendo World Store was partially faked, with some
| of the scenes being actually filmed at his home and then
| spliced in. It was not as egregious as it looked - in fact,
| one of the corny details was that a police siren sound
| effect was added in post.
|
| - Bob adding himself and his struggles to "bob's game" was
| not a result of being rejected for the devkit, it was
| already designed to be like that.
|
| My understanding is that nobody really _gets_ Bob and
| "bob's game" - it truly is quite hard to explain. You sort
| of need to have been there.
| redisman wrote:
| Agreed. I was there from the early days from one of the
| forums I was at. Probably something awful. He pivoted so
| many times, it was for the longest time supposed to be
| the most expansive and realistic (2D) RPG there ever was.
| Then the Nintendo drama and the pivots to puzzle games
| and at some point I stopped paying attention
| stalco wrote:
| Is this part of the real game?
| https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LzdVpfk7yLs
| GranPC wrote:
| No, that video was produced only for the campaign.
| AdmiralAsshat wrote:
| So...almost 20 years later (started in 2004 according to
| Wikipedia): do we actually have a game yet?
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