[HN Gopher] Bring back menus, QR codes are terrible
___________________________________________________________________
Bring back menus, QR codes are terrible
Author : prostoalex
Score : 464 points
Date : 2021-06-29 03:25 UTC (19 hours ago)
(HTM) web link (slate.com)
(TXT) w3m dump (slate.com)
| nine_k wrote:
| QR codes are fine.
|
| What is varying quality is the menus served by the links in QR
| codes. Some can be great, some can be terrible, and everything in
| between. Same thing with paper menus, except they are also bulky.
| handmodel wrote:
| A lot of menus on phones I find difficult as it is pretty
| unclear what the popular items are. Am I supposed to be looking
| at antipasta or "chicken" or "plates"?
|
| This isn't a given. Places could design better instead of
| designing for paper and then just putting that online. But I
| still strongly prefer not to have to take out phone when with
| people.
| nine_k wrote:
| It looks like a perfect SaaS opportunity.
|
| A good menu generator, with competent web layout, readable,
| zoomable, searchable. Results may be hosted or sent as a
| bunch of static files.
|
| The menu SPA page collects patrons' choices and forms a nice
| order for the waiter, as a text and as a QR code.
|
| Flat monthly rate for up to 200 menu updates a day,
| effectively unlimited but preventing abuse. A small flat fee
| for serving the menus online and generation of the QR code.
| One-time fee for each piece of personalization / branding
| work beyond the standard templates.
|
| Looks like a perfect side project for a couple of weekends,
| and then incessant low-intensity marketing efforts.
| nanidin wrote:
| A lot of places I frequent in Kansas City switched to QR codes on
| tables that redirect to an online menu. I like it - less clutter
| on the table, no giving back of printed menus, no asking for the
| drinks menu back when the server comes around for another round,
| and no asking for the dessert menu at the end of the meal if I'm
| actually interested in dessert.
|
| Another great aspect of the QR code driven menus is that after my
| meal or drink arrives I still have the menu readily available, so
| I can check what is in the dish or drink that's in front of me.
| It's great for foodie restaurants that give lots of description
| in the menu - before, when the meal came out I would sometimes
| find myself wondering what that odd shaped component was on my
| plate, but with a first class phone accessible menu I can get
| back to the description of what I ordered and figure out what's
| on my plate, or figure out what might be making my drink taste
| like bitter orange.
|
| I didn't notice how much I liked these things until I recently
| traveled to Santa Fe, where every place was still using printed
| menus. One drink menu for a table of five? Let's all pass it
| around and tell the server to come back in a few minutes after
| we've had a chance to look one by one. Server took all of the
| menus after ordering, then comes around after the meal inquiring
| if we want dessert? I don't know what's on the menu, but I'm not
| interested in waiting for the server to come back with the menu.
| I ordered posole as a side, but forgot what the description was?
| I guess I'll google it...
| marapuru wrote:
| I've had a waiter looking at me puzzled why my phone wasn't able
| to scan a QR code. I told him already that my camera wasn't able
| to. But I had to open the camera in front of him.
|
| - "Have you tried rotating the camera?"
|
| - "Try zooming in and out"
|
| - "Why don't you download a QR code app!?"
|
| These questions / remarks were placed by him while showing him it
| really didn't work.
|
| When I told him I didn't want to download a QR scanner
| application due to privacy reasons he left with an even more
| puzzled face as before, to walk inside and finally bring me a
| paper menu.
|
| These f*cking QR-codes _made_ me an annoying customer.
| m-p-3 wrote:
| I seriously hope Google pushes their OEM to include QR code
| support in the builtin camera app.
|
| This should be a default feature.
|
| That said, if you want a privacy-friendly QR Code reader app on
| Android, Binary Eye is my recommendation.
|
| GitHub: https://github.com/markusfisch/BinaryEye
|
| Play Store:
| https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=de.markusfisch...
|
| F-Droid:
| https://f-droid.org/packages/de.markusfisch.android.binaryey...
| wodenokoto wrote:
| > This should be a default feature.
|
| A decade ago. This should have been a default feature a
| decade ago. Feature phones had QR code readers in the first
| half of the 00s. QR codes had a worldwide resurgence in the
| early 10s and now again in the early 20s.
|
| How this is not a default feature is absolutely crazy.
| the__alchemist wrote:
| It's called "Lens" mode in the camera app, and isn't obvious
| to find, but it's there.
| m-p-3 wrote:
| The average person expects the camera to simply recognize
| them by merely detecting one in the viewfinder, they don't
| expect to download an app or press a button to enable the
| feature.
|
| It's seamless on iOS and on many (but not all) Android
| camera app.
|
| Also, Lens is most likely uploading all sort of data
| directly to Google, not the best solution for a privacy-
| conscious person (I'm aware of the irony of privacy
| implication when talking of Android, but it's either that
| or the walled garden of Apple).
| JeremyNT wrote:
| Thanks for the tip on Binary Eye. I've long used Barcode
| Scanner [0] from f-droid, which appears to be the origin of
| the "Zebra Crossing" scanner implementation Binary Eye uses.
| "Barcode Scanner" is now in maintenance mode, so it's good to
| have a migration path!
|
| Google really does its users a disservice by not simply
| providing a decent barcode scanner with AOSP. The lack of
| such a basic utility makes it so easy for users to install
| spyware in frustration just trying to accomplish the task
| (sort of like the early "flashlight apps").
|
| I've long wondered why they decided to make this task so hard
| - it reminds me of their omission of video output on the
| Pixel phones, but in that case their motivations are clear
| (they want to force people to use Cast instead) - I seriously
| can't understand what their rationale is for making QR
| scanning difficult!
|
| [0] https://f-droid.org/en/packages/com.google.zxing.client.a
| ndr...
| air7 wrote:
| > I seriously hope Google pushes their OEM to include QR code
| support in the builtin camera app.
|
| afaik that is alrady the case
| ArcturianDeath wrote:
| The author says it sufficiently already:
|
| "Maybe restaurant owners will welcome the demise of physical
| menus as a way to eliminate one small but constant expense. Maybe
| their employees will relish their newfound freedom from the
| hassle of reprinting menus every time there's a new seasonal
| entree on offer. Maybe it will free servers from patrons who
| always seem to want to order the one dish that's out of stock.
| (It can be easily deleted from a digital menu as soon as it runs
| out.) Maybe diners who already love scrolling on their phones at
| restaurants will be more than happy to check out the menu there,
| too. Other customers may be content to touch one less surface
| that might be stained with food or invisibly smeared with another
| person's snot."
|
| The rest of it is whiny woman whining
| pwned1 wrote:
| I love QR code menus because I'm not forced to touch a menu that
| 100 people before me have touched.
| timdaub wrote:
| Hey so in any case if someonw or you yourself is struggling to
| understand how to scan a qr code on their phone, always point
| them to my mini tiny product called https://scan.lol
| neither_color wrote:
| The worst thing about QR code menus is that they're often just a
| paper-sized PDF that you have to pinch and zoom around. If they
| could design QR code menus like responsive mobile sites inspired
| by food-ordering apps this wouldn't be an issue, they'd be even
| better than paper menus.
|
| When I was in China I enjoyed using their mobile menus. A common
| layout I saw was a narrow vertical bar on the left with
| categories(appetizers, main, drinks, etc) and cards with photos +
| details on the right.
|
| https://www.smartshanghai.com/uploads/articles/2019/06/63615...
| jbluepolarbear wrote:
| That looks quite distopian
| doom2 wrote:
| This comment and the one below it, also about China[1], should
| be higher up. It was very convenient to be in a restaurant and
| have a digital menu in a standardized format. Of course, it
| required a number of factors to align: all interactions were
| through one of two apps (WeChat or Alipay), the menu layout was
| standard, font size was not tiny (no zooming necessary), cell
| and/or wifi coverage was not lacking. There was also a choice
| between having a menu portal and just a payment portal. Street
| food vendors usually had a laminated QR code tacked to their
| cart and you could scan and pay without the vendor needing to
| ever handle cash, which made for a more efficient processing of
| the line.
|
| It certainly wasn't a perfect system, but it was a lot better
| than the US, where restaurants have multiple different menu
| layouts, some are PDF, some let you pay via mobile, etc. The
| lack of relative uniformity makes for some positive but many
| negative user experiences.
|
| [1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27671788
| IshKebab wrote:
| Every pandemic ordering system I've used has been a proper app
| or website. Surely you have to have that in order to actually
| enter your order? You can't click "buy" on a PDF.
| yoz-y wrote:
| Most bars/restaurants I've been to have menus but no ordering
| system, you order and pay as before.
| Bayart wrote:
| That design language makes sense with Chinese because it's
| dense. I'm not sure it would work with any language written in
| Roman script. Uber Eats for example uses a single vertical
| scrolling menu with horizontal separators and tab bars top and
| bottom.
| PostThisTooFast wrote:
| That headline makes no sense.
|
| Fucking illiterates.
| toastal wrote:
| Are there good examples of QR-code menus out there? I could see
| something like adding i18n being really nice for people that
| don't speak English.
| breakfastduck wrote:
| Just another way to degrade service for the consumer while saving
| money on not needing as many wait staff.
|
| Its infurating, they have no way to modify an order or to have
| your waiter actually _know_ what the fuck you 're ordering.
| scudd wrote:
| I could not agree more.
|
| Additionally, if you are going to use a QR code and web page as
| opposed to a physical menu, there's no shame in just statically
| hosting a PDF of your menu.
|
| It's so frustrating that some bars/restaurants use some third
| party App that wants me to store my email address and credit
| card. Also janky UI that's totally unnecessary, considering a
| static page totally suffices.
| Causality1 wrote:
| Huh, you know, I've never seen that before. I guess restaurants
| around here know people wouldn't put up with it. Basically all of
| them switched to single-use paper menus.
| basisword wrote:
| Really didn't take us long to get back to our first world
| problems did it?
|
| As with most tech things the QR menus work well when they're
| implemented well and poorly when they're implanted poorly. Multi-
| language support (without having to print menus in lots of
| languages that might not get used) is something I've seen in a
| few places. There is also the opportunity to make them a more
| accessible option if done right. It allows restaurants to make
| updates to menu items more frequently and more when something
| isn't available.
| kerkeslager wrote:
| Ah yes, the "accessibility" of a $200+ smartphone. $500+ if you
| actually want it to come with a working ad-free QR reader
| preinstalled.
| basisword wrote:
| 82% of the population in the UK own a smartphone. On top of
| that, if you don't have one, no restaurant is denying you
| service.
| kerkeslager wrote:
| The largest number of people I could find affected by sight
| loss in the UK was 4.1 million by 2050, which is obviously
| far larger than the current number--and sight loss doesn't
| mean they can't read a paper menu in many cases[1]. The
| population of the UK is just over 68 million[2].
|
| So two posts ago you were extolling the virtues of
| accessibility for _at most_ 6% of UK 's population, but now
| it's suddenly no big deal that 18% of the UK's population
| can't access your menu. And that's ignoring folks like my
| father: he technically has a smart phone, but he never has
| it on him and he wouldn't know how to scan a QR code even
| if he did have his smart phone on him.
|
| And sure, nobody is turning away people without smart
| phones _or_ blind people. Anyone is welcome to order food
| as long as they can figure out what your restaurant
| actually makes.
|
| [1] https://www.rnib.org.uk/nb-online/eye-health-statistics
|
| [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demography_of_the_United_
| Kingd...
|
| EDIT: You also completely ignored my point about having a
| working ad-free QR reader installed. I've got an entry-
| level Samsung phone, which did not come with a built-in QR
| code reader. The free one I downloaded came with ads.
| draw_down wrote:
| First world problem is such a silly and birdbrained category to
| begin with, but the reasons for and against doing this can both
| be categorized that way, so it is entirely unhelpful here. (And
| God forbid people should want their world to be a certain way,
| why can't they just shut up and take it)
|
| It's a first world problem to have to wipe off a menu after a
| customer used it, or to have to print out and recycle paper
| ones.
| dantheman wrote:
| You have a small device, where you have to scroll. So much
| nicer when you can actually look at the menu.
| giarc wrote:
| I suspect there are things that would improve the experience
| for everyone. For example, instead of the customer asking "Is
| X gluten free, is Y gluten free" the online menu could have
| filters for various allergies etc. Online menus could also
| offer more pictures, videos of meals, better upsells etc.
| kerkeslager wrote:
| Videos of meals? Better upsells? Are you _trying_ to create
| my personal hell?
| giarc wrote:
| :) I could see some features becoming quite annoying,
| especially if you have to click through a bunch of
| upsells to finally add item to order. I think places
| could get creative though, for example leave comments for
| the chef about the meal, make specific requests which the
| prep team can respond to, have the chef speak about the
| daily specials in video rather than have a wait staff
| regurgitate them after having never tried them.
| kerkeslager wrote:
| > I could see some features becoming quite annoying,
| especially if you have to click through a bunch of
| upsells to finally add item to order.
|
| ...which is exactly what would happen, because you can
| measure how many times the upsell works, but you can't
| easily measure how many people stop going to your
| restaurant as a result of this crap, and companies will
| literally kill people if they can find metrics to show
| it's profitable.
|
| > I think places could get creative though, for example
| leave comments for the chef about the meal, make specific
| requests which the prep team can respond to, have the
| chef speak about the daily specials in video rather than
| have a wait staff regurgitate them after having never
| tried them.
|
| Having worked in food service in the past, the _last_
| thing chefs want is comments on the meal from customers.
| The ignorance and rudeness of the general public when it
| comes to food is astounding.
|
| The chef speaking about the daily specials might be the
| only reasonable idea here, but my gut feel is that the
| only people who would use this would be tech folks
| interested in the feature, not end users. I don't think
| this is probably enough of a value add to be worth
| implementing.
| squeaky-clean wrote:
| They could, but they never do. I've only gone out dining
| twice so far, and one time was a QR code place. But their
| PDF wasn't even text-searchable.
| jiofih wrote:
| QR code's are awesome. No greasy menu to hold, up to date
| availability, can see more details and better pictures for each
| item, and order without waiting for someone to show up at the
| table.
| __MatrixMan__ wrote:
| I'm surprised the author didn't mention the worst part
|
| In most cases, the file is called "menu.pdf", so after
| downloading the PDF you then have to figure out if menu(12).pdf
| is the cocktail menu or the food menu.
| ho_schi wrote:
| I also want the menu card back. Does a digital menu card
| something better? Digitalization for digitalization.
|
| In-flight magazines and newspapers are not spreading Covid-19,
| neither does cash. But unvaccinated people do and people which
| doesn't use soap and water spread literally anything.
| NamTaf wrote:
| I understand the benefits of phyiscal menus, but I for one relied
| on QR codes when working in China. I could go into a restaurant
| alone and use screenshots + google translate to essentially feed
| myself. Without a QR code, it was a gamble as to whether there
| were photos for me to see to order. Moreover, I didn't have to
| assume the waiter knew English, they'd just ferry out my food to
| my table when it was ready. I relied on this multiple times
| whilst there.
|
| There's certainly benefits to both, and offering both makes sense
| to me. As with all things, a few options tends to be good.
| HelloNurse wrote:
| Google Translate has been using OCR to replace foreign text in
| live camera input for several years. Didn't it work on Chinese
| printed menus?
| NamTaf wrote:
| Yeh, I could photograph and use OCR on the menu, but it's not
| as reliable because of the varying quality of the printed
| menu text. A second thing was realising that the realtime OCR
| wasn't as good as an image and then scanning afterwards.
|
| However, that still doesn't address the issue of having to
| communicate! I guess I also found QR Code menus to generally
| have more pics than printed ones, so it covered off both of
| those issues.
|
| I should add that the QR codes were not just the menu, but
| also your table so when you placed an order through Wechat it
| knew what table you were at so they'd literally just bring it
| over when it's ready.
| nly wrote:
| When I was last in China (I've been last twice in the last 5
| years) I still couldn't even get data on my phone. Does GT
| work well offline?
| squiggleblaz wrote:
| If you can't get data on your phone, how does a QR code
| link help you out? It seems you're stuck between a rock and
| a hard place.
| jayd16 wrote:
| Can we make these NFC stickers as well at least? Seems like that
| would work far better.
| Sevii wrote:
| Took my grandparents out to lunch last week and they were
| literally incapable of using the QR codes. Technology has
| advanced to the point where they can't even read the menus at
| restaurants because they don't have smartphones.
|
| Luckily restaurants have paper menus as backups.
| oleks wrote:
| I like QR codes, and ordering via phone. You don't have to wait
| around for the waiter to bring the menu, take your order, take
| your payment. Don't have to touch a menu that hasn't been
| disinfected, or is out of date.
|
| They do need to be properly implemented however. That is maybe
| more a business opportunity than an inconvenience.
| murphyslab wrote:
| As mentioned in the article, having a digital menu allows for a
| restaurant to adjust its offering in subtle and responsive ways.
| If a place is out of one ingredient, those items for which it is
| necessary could be struck.
|
| Or one could have "surge pricing" -- not desirable as a customer,
| but certainly for a dining establishment. And one could also
| collect more information on customers.
|
| I'm still inclined toward tangible menus. For the one positive
| point (adaptability), I am reminded of one of the best restaurant
| meals that I ever had. The beer menu was a small laminated card,
| but the brief food menu was just written on a chalk board each
| day. When I arrived a few items were already struck with a line
| through them. One really can't beat that kind of simplicity, with
| no reliance on digital devices unless for payment, if desired.
|
| (kelnos pointed out that I missed something in the article;
| edited to address that point.)
| MikeUt wrote:
| They could even charge different customers different rates,
| partnering with advertising firms to provide customer
| identification and segmentation.
| murphyslab wrote:
| Or show a more affluent customer a different menu -- one
| where everything is labelled deluxe, bespoke, or through
| terminology substitutions similar to "Patagonian toothfish" -
| "Chilean sea bass".
| kelnos wrote:
| > _If a place is out of one ingredient, those items for which
| it is necessary could be struck._
|
| The article actually does mention that exact thing.
| murphyslab wrote:
| Thanks. Not sure how I missed the line in the brackets; I'd
| only caught the part about seasonal entrees somehow.
| murbard2 wrote:
| The best solution -- pandemic or no pandemic -- is a tablet at
| the table that you can use to order directly and also works as
| POS. Unfortunately, it's seen as low status so unlikely to be
| widely adopted. The fact that waitering uses a push model vs a
| pull model is insane.
| technothrasher wrote:
| Any time I've ever seen a tablet at the table, it's been used
| to push annoying ads at me trying to upsell shit. No, I don't
| want to add a wicked bloomin' onion or a Chocolato(tm)
| margarita. I don't need a flashing squawk box bothering me
| while I'm trying to have dinner, thanks. While I'm sure you
| could design a table tablet that didn't do that, it's obviously
| too tempting for them to do it.
| michaeltimo wrote:
| when all you have is a QR code ...
| whymauri wrote:
| Depends on the setting, honestly. In a cafe, it's nice to
| continue working while just ordering on the QR. In some sit down
| restaurants, it does feel like the service is strictly lower
| quality with the QR codes. It's hard to convey what exactly you
| want sometimes, especially since not all these QR apps have a
| notes section.
|
| Allergies? Substitutions? This stuff just gets slightly
| harder/annoying, albeit not horribly difficult ofc. I find myself
| agreeing most with the authors on this, though:
|
| > I despise spending the first 10 minutes of a social engagement
| on my phone.
|
| This just sucks and I'm tired of it.
| noduerme wrote:
| "... it's nice to continue working..." yes, this is also the
| problem with so many cafes. People go there to get some work
| done but also to interact. To strike up conversations about
| work or life with people outside your usual bubble. If you
| didn't want to be around other people you could stay in the
| office or at home. But in recent years everyone wears
| headphones and has so many devices that walking into a cafe at
| lunchtime is like going into a call center. What's the point?
| I've worked on laptops in cafes since the early 90s when I was
| usually the only one with a computer. But I learned the
| civility that if you're going to work in a public space, part
| of the reason you're doing that is to take time away from your
| work to interact with other people, including the service
| staff. Usually I would never go work "out" until all the job
| reqs for the day were done and I was comfortable being
| interrupted. To go into a public space and tune everything out
| and demand that it function like your private office is a
| bizarre antisocial feature of a generation that has spent too
| much time on social media and doesn't know how to act or
| respond in real life. Walking into those places now just makes
| me sad.
| whymauri wrote:
| From my view... there are cafes for working and cafes for
| socializing, and to me they have different vibes and
| regulars. Or perhaps I'm fortunate enough to live in a city
| where there's such a distinction, I'm not really sure.
|
| For example, there used to be a cafe around here with a
| designated 'no laptops, no work' area and some board games
| (R.I.P. Longfellow's). There's a local chain that doesn't
| even provide WiFi. Contrast that to the hyper-sterile Blue
| Bottle Coffee less than a mile away -- I actually do like
| their coffee, but I don't go there to socialize. It's a space
| optimized to cycle people in-and-out ASAP.
|
| Pre-COVID I actually ran a small mailing list for people to
| hang out at rotating local cafes, so I get what you mean to
| some extent. Even then, you're probably right that doesn't
| seem as dire to me because I grew up post-2000.
| noduerme wrote:
| I'm old enough to remember when the 'no laptops' signs
| sprouted and then quickly were overwhelmed or went out of
| business. I didn't take it personally - by that point I
| understood that my gf and I making graphics and websites
| while talking to the regulars wasn't the problem. Most of
| what I'm referencing is in South America, Thailand,
| Vietnam, France, Czechia and Spain. Generally liquor
| licenses are permissive and they're family owned, so, a lot
| of places serve coffee during the day and transition to
| bars and nightclubs at night. There is a general flow to
| your day where as evening approaches, you switch from
| corfee to alcohol and people you know come and populate
| your table, sometimes they work and if they're coders you
| talk shop about databases or something, then it gets too
| loud so you go out with whoever came by and get dinner. And
| if the server is finished you invite them too. This is what
| I considered a _civilized_ form of working in a cafe with a
| computer on your table. And even at that,any times my gf
| thought it might be rude so we 'd put it away and play
| chess or read.
|
| I think if people had an awareness of their surroundings in
| these spaces, the spaces wouldn't have turned into
| sterilized off-campus work sites. But that may be asking
| too much from people who've never experienced it. I think
| this is what some of the 90s/00s startups were trying to
| replicate with their play rooms, but that's a far cry from
| sitting with a local dev and a taxi driver and a drunk
| musician spitting out ideas To me that's what the cafe is
| for.
|
| (edit) I don't mean this to come off as the rant of an old
| gen X-er... it sounds to me like you had a real
| appreciation for the counterculture of ideas that could
| bubble up from having some limits and creativity in those
| spaces. You woulda loved the 90s. But maybe if enough
| people get sick of Blue Bottle Coffee and Starbucks, we can
| claw some humanity back. As it is, the less work-centric
| and more friends-and-family-centric parts if the world
| mostly reject the cafe as workplace model. They didn't used
| to find it so rude but they do now. I hope we have a
| backlash in the States if only because people really need
| that space to be verbal, interacting humans with each
| other. Especially on a lunch break.
| Zababa wrote:
| I live in France and I've never heard of something like
| that. There's usually a strict distinction between bars
| and cafes, with cafes being where people take a coffee or
| an orange juice during the day with friends, and bars
| where people drink beer during the night with friends,
| and sometimes meet other people.
| noduerme wrote:
| The conversion from cafe in the day to bar/club at night
| is more common in Spain and Argentina, but there are
| places around in France. I lived in a couple villages in
| Auvergne near Clermont-Ferrand and also in Avignon. The
| places that are cafes in the day will convert at night in
| these smaller towns. The whole square in Avignon is cafes
| in day and bars at night. (In Paris or Marseille I didn't
| really see this - but it's prevalent in Madrid and Buenos
| Aires).
| Zababa wrote:
| > In Paris or Marseille I didn't really see this
|
| That's probably this then, I've lived in Lyon all my
| life.
| noduerme wrote:
| I wish I had spent more time in Lyon. The countryside
| around there probably seems boring to you, since you grew
| up in the city. But coming from America, it's obvious
| that the smallest village in France is light-years more
| advanced, more educated, clever and civilized than the
| country I grew up in. It has its problems of course, but
| it's paradise compared to most other places I've been.
|
| Funny, slightly dark story about Avignon. I became
| friendly with a guy there who was a good musician but
| turned out to be a bit of a...right wing type. National
| Front. There was a cafe on the square that was a gay club
| at night, and my girlfriend and I used to have coffee
| there in the day. One day this guy walked by and said
| "don't you know what this bar is where you're sitting?" I
| said, "come on, chill out, sit down." He took some
| convincing. So finally he sat down and I said, "I know
| you like Le Pen. How do you feel about sitting in front
| of a gay bar with an Filipina/Mexican and Jew/Argentine?
| Are you angry we're in your country?" He said, "as long
| as you're here because you're interested in France, I'm
| okay." Later, walking through town, he saw a kid
| urinating on the front step of an apartment. He shouted
| at the kid and the kid pulled a knife out. This guy
| tackled him. Still later we took a bus to the station
| through the banlieu and saw the desolation - she said,
| "what have they done to their country?"
|
| Eh. I shouldn't tell these stories on HN. I guess it
| taught me that life is complicated and to bring it full
| circle to the cafe question, your view of the world is
| very relative to where you grew up, in what time period,
| and what you expect people to behave like.
| Zababa wrote:
| On the contrary, the countryside has a lot of appeal to
| me. For a few years we lived in a rather isolated house
| in Dardilly and I have fond memories of them. Not really
| the same experience as the countryside but I'm really
| glad I spent some of my youth here and not directly in
| the city.
|
| Thank you for sharing that story, it's thanks to people
| like you that bring some new perspective I started to
| love my country for what it is.
| [deleted]
| cblconfederate wrote:
| > In a cafe, it's nice to continue working while just ordering
| on the QR
|
| That doesn't sound like a cafe (or a workplace)
| whymauri wrote:
| Different strokes for different folks. Seen this at a few
| cafes on the East Coast, but it's not the norm as dine-in is
| barely returning.
| tristor wrote:
| This is one subtle reason I love Boomers. They don't want to deal
| with this sort of stuff and businesses have no choice (for now)
| to cater to them, which means annoyances from tech being
| unnecessarily inserted into a process are almost always
| bypassable simply by asking politely.
|
| I've yet to be forced to use a QR code menu. I have sometimes had
| the alternative be looking at a large menu board over having a
| menu card in my hands, but even many restaurants will happily
| hand you a menu card on request. That said, given the
| circumstances I haven't left a 50 mile radius of my house, so
| it's possible it's different elsewhere.
| villgax wrote:
| Said no one ever
| redisman wrote:
| I'll say it. Bring back menus, QR code's are terrible. You
| already printed this goofy thing why not just print the menu so
| I don't have to dick around with some PDF on my phone.
|
| Perfect example of a solution looking for a problem
| villgax wrote:
| Yes, we should just add more avoidable surfaces of contact
| which do not get cleaned as often as utensils, thanks to your
| big brain right?
| qbasic_forever wrote:
| Wash your hands before the food is served, it's super
| common and recommended even in the pre-covid times.
|
| If you're touching your phone right before eating you
| DEFINITELY want to wash your hands. Think about where your
| phone usually sits, tightly pressed against your body
| absorbing all the sweat and detritus and bacteria on your
| person. Think of the last time you actually washed or
| sanitized your phone too...
| villgax wrote:
| Keys as well, makes me puke
| noduerme wrote:
| As a former waiter, I tip extra well. If I encountered this, I'd
| be tempted not to tip at all except maybe slipping a $10 bill to
| the runner or the bus boy. And I wouldn't go back to the
| restaurant.
| sundaeofshock wrote:
| I'm also a former wait person so I don't understand why you
| would punish the server because of the owner's business
| decision.
| throwawayboise wrote:
| If the servers don't get good tips, they go work elsewhere,
| so it eventually punishes the owner. Sucks for the servers in
| the meantime though.
| noduerme wrote:
| Pretty much this. I would probably quit a restaurant that
| did this because on the face of it, it takes away my
| ability to serve the customer, listen to them, explain,
| upsell, and generally provide the service they're tipping
| me for. Why would I expect a good tip if I didn't have that
| interaction with them?
| herbst wrote:
| I don't have a phone number (verification) and don't bring
| internet with me all the time. Guess that would already lock me
| out me out of many restaurants? But same is true for most
| tourists.
|
| I haven't been out eating since the pandemic, but if this makes
| uncomplicated WiFi hotspots in restaurants more common I am ok
| with it I guess.
| djrogers wrote:
| I hate this as well. When I take my family out for dinner, I'm
| the only person out of 5 with a phone that can use the digital
| menus, and often I'd prefer to not even have mine with me (I like
| to leave my phone at home just wear my watch on date nights with
| the wife for example).
|
| As a result, I always ask for physical menus, and 99% of
| restaurants are happy to give them to me.
| villgax wrote:
| Entire article is like a joke
| Tor3 wrote:
| QR codes work fine where I live. I believe problems are due to
| the implementation, not with the concept.
|
| I find it very convenient. Connect to the local wifi, there's no
| confirmation code, just open wifi (most of the time - some of
| them have an unnecessary "accept" step. Never any "confirmation
| code"). Scan. Browse. Choose. Pay, or pay later (convenient, I
| can adjust the tip before I pay).
|
| All in all it's much faster than having to wait for a waiter to
| come to the table to take the orders. We can add and remove and
| make up our minds in peace, then just sit down and wait - drinks
| arrive straight away, the rest later.
|
| And we don't have to wait forever to get the bill and to pay.
| It's all done. In short, to me it's a great improvement.
| Obviously it wouldn't be if the implementation hadn't been good,
| but around here it is.
|
| Edit - let me add that most places I visit _also_ have a physical
| menu to look at, it 's just that ordering and payment is done via
| the web browser.
| stronglikedan wrote:
| > ordering and payment is done via the web browser
|
| This _still_ assumes each customer has a phone. I bought an LTE
| watch so I could leave the distraction of my phone behind while
| I dine.
| karaterobot wrote:
| To each their own, but that sounds less enjoyable than a
| traditional restaurant experience to me. As you say in your
| example, so much depends on the "implementation" in this case
| too -- i.e. is the service at the restaurant good or not -- but
| a talented waiter brings a lot to the table in more ways than
| one.
| bhelkey wrote:
| For me it depends on the type of restaurant.
|
| Some restaurants live and die by their ambiance. But others
| the main draw is the food and/or the price and/or the speed.
| In that case, I would enjoy having a QR code order option.
| mastrsushi wrote:
| To say "bring menus back" isn't forward thinking. Menu's are
| gross, not all resturants bother to clean them because to do so
| is a burden on service flow. They're also an uneeded
| environmental factor.
|
| This pandemic was a complete reflection of human laziness. With
| the technology we're spoiled with, if there's an effortless way
| to carry better hygiene habits, we should make use of it.
|
| So to the author, you can be as bummed as you want watching
| customers stare down at phones. You can go ahead and paint it as
| some Orwellian fever dream. I don't want this planet's landfills
| to load up on slightly cracked Cheesecake factory booklets.
| bartread wrote:
| I've never enjoyed standing at the bar waiting to order, not even
| as an underage teen when going to a pub or club was a shiny new
| experience. Never. And especially not when it's busy. (If I never
| again experience standing 10 deep at the bar in a busy
| Wetherspoons, or a gig, on a Saturday night I will shed not one
| single solitary tear.)
|
| So in some sense table service is an improvement. But I'm with
| the author on QR codes and mobile ordering. I'm sick to the back
| teeth of it. Every other restaurant or pub has their own flawed
| and busted-ass interpretation of how an ordering app should work,
| and payment is an inconsistent mess. Some places have an app,
| some have a website. None of it works the same bloody way, and it
| can all go and do one in the ninth circle of Hades as far as I'm
| concerned.
|
| These are all first world problems, but they're still problems.
| And I'd take standing at the bar and ordering drinks over any of
| them, with possible exceptions for the busier scenarios I
| specifically picked out in my first paragraph.
|
| (Don't overinterpret me: I don't mind sticking to the rules for
| the time being, but when restrictions relax and I don't have to
| do any of these annoying things any more I will literally skip
| for joy.)
| dqpb wrote:
| Last weekend a much older couple (late 70s) sat at a table next
| to me and the QR code menu was a big accessibility fail for them.
| koolhaas wrote:
| My preferred combo: QR code at the table for menu browsing. Order
| with a human. Then QR code on the bill to (optionally) pay on
| your phone, ideally with Apple Pay. But you have the option still
| to leave out your CC for a more leisurely payment flow.
| chpmrc wrote:
| How long before someone exploits this?
|
| - Build an app that injects malware but also shows the
| restaurant's menu. Give it the same name as the restaurant.
|
| - Go to the restaurant, overlay your QR code sticker on top of
| the restaurant's.
|
| - When someone scans the code they are asked to install
| "[Restaurant's name] menu", obviously they are going to do it.
|
| - They open the app -> malware is activated, menu is shown.
| Profit.
| discordance wrote:
| That exploit would only work once.
|
| As soon as the first customer, who gets charged $20 or
| whatever, reports that they didn't get their meal it would be
| checked.
|
| And then it would be pretty easy to find out when the QR codes
| were replaced. Then camera footage of that person would be sent
| to the police and they would be up for fraud. Great exploit.
| dna_polymerase wrote:
| I'm totally going to use my 0day iOS sandbox escape to steal
| the $50 order from the restaurant down the street.
| sksksk wrote:
| When they work well, they're really good, but when they work
| badly, they're _really_ bad.
|
| The other week, I went for dinner at a place that had a online
| ordering system. My experience was as follows...
|
| Arrive at the table, scan the QR code
|
| No phone signal in the restaurant, so I need to connect to the
| wifi.
|
| Connect to the wifi, get a captive portal
|
| Need to put my phone number in to connect to the wifi; there is
| no signal, so I need to go outside, to receieve the confirmation
| code.
|
| Connected to the wifi, scan the code again, choose my food.
|
| Go to pay, need to register an account
|
| Put my email address in, I already have an account on this food
| ordering service!?
|
| Do a password reset
|
| Put in my credit card details (why not use apple pay?).
|
| This whole time, we're sat at a table, in theory to meet friends,
| but we've spent the first 15 minutes all glued to our phones!
| stemlord wrote:
| The only QR related issue here is lack of signal, everything
| else is irrelevant
| the__alchemist wrote:
| You shouldn't need internet connectivity or a smart phone to
| view the menu.
| stemlord wrote:
| Agreed
| seb1204 wrote:
| Is the online ordering system a cost cutting measure to save on
| staff or seen as a user benefit?
| atatatat wrote:
| If you're "good" at marketing, both.
| sidlls wrote:
| I'd leave as soon as I could not use the system without
| connecting to their WiFi, and _especially_ if it required any
| personal information at all to do so. I have a VPN, but that 's
| just too much.
| bshep wrote:
| So, if they have a captive portal, why not put the menu there
| before you login? That would even make the QR code a moot
| point, scan QR code or just connect to the wifi and menu
| magically appears...
| mrlala wrote:
| Don't forget to pay that 20% tip because how else would the
| servers make anything........
| makach wrote:
| this.
|
| I do not miss 400 options(!) nor the icky stick menus that
| sticks together like a 80's playboy magazine. Its good to see
| digital revolution embrace restaurants. I'd much rather
| struggle with my phone and my own grime than fiddling with the
| menu.
| jbluepolarbear wrote:
| It's hostile to the experience. It takes me out of why I went
| to a restaurant I the first place. I want to sit down and
| focus on my present company and forget about my digital life.
| This isn't a new experience, Red Robin and Ruby Tuesday
| have/had a tablet checkout system that was a chore to use. I
| started removing restaurants that used similar systems from
| my rotation because they ruin the experience.
| YarickR2 wrote:
| It's hostile to your experience; others (me included) find
| QR codes quite handy and saving time and efforts
| bluGill wrote:
| QR codes are a tool. It isn't the fault of the hammer
| that sometimes they are used to kill people. Likewise it
| isn't the fault of QR codes that many times they are used
| for something that isn't useful (at least they can't
| kill). When I'm at a museum I love the ability to scan a
| QR code and get a lot of detailed information that
| wouldn't fit on a sign - but often I just want the small
| sign and then I move on to the next exhibit.
| stjohnswarts wrote:
| a great combination is a short summary with a QR code for
| more info if you want it. It doesn't have to be rocket
| surgery.
| shoulderfake wrote:
| Buddy how did you not just leave the place as soon as you saw
| there's no network connection ?
| vmception wrote:
| I haven't seen anything that bad since last summer. Actually
| I've seen some QR code and online based checkout systems that
| were bad, but I just ignore those with a "I'm not signing up
| for that"
| signal11 wrote:
| These places are unwittingly teaching their customers that
| they'll have a superior experience by using a food delivery
| service such as Uber Eats.
| jbluepolarbear wrote:
| Where do they work well? I still have to pull out my phone and
| switch to the camera app, open a browser to whatever link is in
| the qr code. This process is already too many points of
| failure.
| bruce343434 wrote:
| Not to mention tedious
| HelloNurse wrote:
| Assuming there was another restaurant nearby, I'd have
| simplified the process to "go outside". If a restaurant is too
| cheap to print a menu, why should I consider it good enough for
| me?
| topicseed wrote:
| With covid, many restaurants removed paper menus to avoid
| transmission. I hate QR codes so that was a move I was not in
| favour of.....
| syshum wrote:
| That is all fine, but then they should find a better way to
| secure their WiFi Network to allow easy access to the Menu
|
| I.e Not have a captive portal if your only going to the
| menu, have the captive portal if you want full access to
| the internet
|
| Clearly they cheaped out on hiring a network company that
| setup their wifi wrong
|
| If I have jump through a bunch of hurtles to view your menu
| I am out
| wyager wrote:
| > With covid, many restaurants removed paper menus to avoid
| transmission
|
| Any time a business claims to do something in the name of
| health or environmentalism, they are actually just using
| those as an excuse to cut corners.
| scrollaway wrote:
| Or, you know, the government is asking them to do it.
|
| Here in Belgium the government asked a lot of mostly
| useless measures out of our bars and restaurants. You
| think they're happy paying hundreds, sometimes thousands
| of euros having Plexiglas screens installed all over the
| place, inconveniencing customers and staff alike?
| ajsnigrutin wrote:
| Cut corners and charge more...
|
| I've been to a restaurant where they raised the prices of
| drinks to accomodate for using biodegradable plastic cups
| (sit-in restaurant!)... this is not enviromentalism, this
| is charging 20c for a 5c cup, instead of using glasses
| like a normal restaurant.
|
| Also, the reusable cotton bags are just an excuse to
| charge more, because you'd have to reuse a cotton bag
| 7100 times, to make it as friendly as using plastic bags
| ( https://theconversation.com/heres-how-many-times-you-
| actuall... ). ...of course, paper is rarely an option.
| nly wrote:
| Laminated menus that you can spray and wipe off would make
| a lot more sense.
| jbluepolarbear wrote:
| It's as if Denny's has been ahead of the game all a long
| atatatat wrote:
| Assume you're disgusting, work backwards from there.
| jbluepolarbear wrote:
| Don't be acting like Denny's is a Waffle House.
| bloak wrote:
| On the other hand, pathogens survive longer on a smooth
| surface than on a rough absorbant surface, and I would
| guess that they are more likely to be transferred from a
| smooth surface onto somebody's hand than from a rough
| absorvant surface. So, taking account of people perhaps
| not doing all that spraying and wiping properly, a paper
| menu might turn out to be safer after all.
| nly wrote:
| Then destroy and replace them with every service?
|
| it's only a printed sheet
| mosselman wrote:
| I could be wrong, as I often am, but I think getting
| covid from a surface is recently proven to be highly
| unlikely.
| Symmetry wrote:
| In March of 2020 we were pretty sure that at most 5% of
| Covid transmissions were through touched surfaces
| (fomites). Currently we're sure that at most .01% of
| Covid transmissions are through surfaces and still
| haven't found clear evidence of it ever actually having
| happened so literally 0% still can't be ruled out. But
| upper respiratory tract infections like the flu do
| actually spread through fomites pretty easily so we've
| defaulted to the flu playbook for many public health
| measures.
| stjohnswarts wrote:
| There are a lot of diseases out there that are
| transferred on surfaces however. Not everything is about
| covid
| cinntaile wrote:
| They have known this since april 2020, it was a German
| scientist that first tested this I believe.
| stjohnswarts wrote:
| Interestingly this is why wood cutting boards are better
| than plastic ones.
| _joel wrote:
| I've been to a number of restaurants that have had QR codes
| on the table but, if you request it, they provide a
| laminated menu.
| jbluepolarbear wrote:
| Restaurants open during the pandemic has been a joke.
| Outside in a tent/wood box never fixed any problem. I have
| not been to a restaurant since March 2020. Going to
| different restaurants was my favorite hobby, but the
| experience has become so hostile that I won't go back until
| I can sit inside without a mask, have a menu, and not have
| to worry about a coughing idiot.
| jiofih wrote:
| Your comment reeks of entitlement. Restaurant owners have
| been struggling to survive by serving customers any way
| they can. Sorry your high dining-out standards can't be
| met while a few million people die from the pandemic.
| jbluepolarbear wrote:
| How is this entitlement? Dining at a restaurant is a
| luxury, if I'm going to spend my money on a luxury, I'm
| going to choose an experience that is safe, enjoyable,
| and to my interests. Why are you so upset? Why do you
| feel that the conditions in place are acceptable?
| Personally, I grew up quite poor and never got to go to
| restaurants. It wasn't until I started making a little
| money in my late 20s that I could start to go to
| restaurants as a way to remove myself from my current
| stressful life and just unwind for a bit. For me
| restaurant dining is an experience and the experience
| offered at present isn't appealing.
| 0xbadcafebee wrote:
| It's not entitlement. You are entitled to express your
| opinion that dining in restaurants has become something
| you no longer enjoy. I think it's worth noting since
| their existence depends upon pleasing customers.
|
| People forget that restaurants are a really modern
| invention. They were first introduced in France at the
| turn of the 19th century to provide more than just a way
| to order one type of food. The main reason they exist is
| the service, ambiance, and menu. Until "nice" restaurants
| came about, there were pretty much just taverns and inns,
| which were not renowned for their dining experience, and
| in most locales there was just one or maybe two, and the
| food selection wasn't great.
| jamal-kumar wrote:
| https://arstechnica.com/science/2020/12/archaeologists-
| excav... might want to consider a wider scope of recent
| archaeological discoveries. I wonder what it was like
| outside of Europe during this time period too
| dagw wrote:
| _Dining at a restaurant is a luxury_
|
| I think this is the crux of the difference of opinions.
| Dining at a restaurant is different things to different
| people at different times. I love the 'luxury' dining
| experience with all that it entails, will happily pay a
| lot of money to experience it, and I cannot wait to do
| that again. And in those cases, yes I expect that all
| aspects of the dining experience live up to that. But
| just as often I'm just hungry and want a halfway decent
| burger and beer served to me as quickly and efficiently
| as possible.
|
| For most people and in most situations, dining at a
| restaurant isn't a luxury experience, it's just a way to
| get food.
| bregma wrote:
| It smacks of entitlement when dining at a restaurant is
| considered basic necessity and preparing your own meals
| is considered a luxury. Think about history. Think about
| the vast, vast majority of people on earth. Consider just
| how entitled one must be to have the help prepare your
| basic necessities of life.
| Broken_Hippo wrote:
| Fast food has been a staple of life since antiquity: For
| centuries, folks went to the baker to get bread, since
| home kitchen facilities were very limited. Women have
| been stuck in home kitchens for eons, with male family
| members not learning even basic skills unless they were
| employed as cooks or bakers.
|
| I think we've been depending on others for food prep for
| a very, very long time.
| jbluepolarbear wrote:
| That's extremely sexist. I for one am an excellent cook,
| I'm not a women, and I haven't been employed for my
| cooking abilities. I learned to cook because I wasn't
| able to experience restaurants. I was tired of the bland
| boring food my parents made. I started cooking our meals
| and I would copy from tv shows, magazines. I wanted
| better food, but couldn't afford to have it prepared for
| me so I learned a skill. Any restaurant food is
| considered a luxury to me. I aggressively budgeted so
| that I could start going to restaurants as an adult. My
| cooking abilities only got better when I was able to
| taste the food that I'd been mimicking for so long. For
| me a normal family meal cost $20, a single value meal at
| McDonald's is $10. So for my family a meal at McDonald's
| would be $40 minimum. That increases as the greatly as
| you transition into sit down meals; where a meal is $15
| per person and that's before tip so $80. How are these
| not luxury expenses? 1 meal at a restaurant cost as much
| as 4 at home and those home meals will also produce
| leftovers for lunches. Before COVID I would eat out 1
| times a week with my family and 1-2 times a week for
| lunch. At that frequency it's still a lot of money and I
| have always treated it as a luxury expense that is part
| food and part entertainment.
| prewett wrote:
| Recounting historical realities is sexist? How does one
| talk about history then, since history is chock-full of
| inequalities? And might there be some decent, non-sexist
| reasons why women cooked and men didn't, consistently,
| over large periods of time and many different cultures?
| imwillofficial wrote:
| "That's extremely sexist."
|
| No it isn't, GP was recounting historical norms. Get off
| your high horse.
| Broken_Hippo wrote:
| I'm the poster you responded to, and I think you've taken
| some things out of context. Of course there is sexism. I
| was talking about history, and history has a lot more
| sexism than a lot of western, more "liberal" countries
| retain - and this is a fairly recent development.
| dagw wrote:
| By that argument, indoor plumbing and safe running water
| can also be considered luxuries. Which, while true, is
| rather reductivist.
|
| And if we want to talk history, having food made for you
| by other rather than making it yourself is not a new
| thing. Having a servant or a wife/mother/grandmother
| making you dinner was far more common in the past than it
| is now. I'd probably guess that more people know how to
| cook and cook their own food today, than at just about
| any other time in history
| atatatat wrote:
| Stirring Mac and cheese or warming a Hot Pocket is not on
| the same level as roasting a pig and such, but I agree
| with the local point you're making.
| Werewolf255 wrote:
| These are all just spinning food products around or on a
| heat source, sounds like we could just abstract and reuse
| that module without coding up a behavior for each 'new'
| cooking technique.
| mkr-hn wrote:
| It's remarkable how much those restaurants they uncovered
| in Pompeii resemble modern versions.
|
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thermopolium
| chalst wrote:
| In developing countries, the urban poor frequently don't
| live in places with cooking facilities and have to eat
| prepared food.
| OJFord wrote:
| For all people in all situations in the UK, dining at a
| restaurant is subject to VAT; it is therefore considered
| a _luxury_ (in the sense of being pleasant but not
| necessary [0]) as opposed to _essential_ 'way to get
| food'.
|
| It may seem a bit ridiculous to appeal to VAT - there are
| fairly 'ordinary' goods that are nevertheless deemed
| inessential and taxable after all - but I just wanted a
| way to say that I think GP's use of 'luxury' is being
| misinterpreted as a desire for _fine_ dining; as I read
| it, I agree, it 's discretional expenditure which has my
| discretion when I think I'll enjoy it. If I don't, why
| should I?
|
| I don't think that's any more entitled than the converse
| view here that we have some sort of moral obligation to
| personally (and not through taxes) support restaurateurs
| through limited opening.
|
| [0] - https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/luxury
| imwillofficial wrote:
| When you're poor, dining out is a luxury. Like GP, I grew
| up poor and still think of something like AppleBees as
| frivolous and expensive. I like to have an enjoyable
| experience as well. The hygiene theater has really
| reduced that experience. Menus being an unexpected
| casualty of the pandemic.
| jiofih wrote:
| > why do you feel like the conditions in place are
| acceptable?
|
| "Acceptable"? To whom? This is why you sound entitled.
| The alternative is _not dining out_. You make it sound
| like restaurants are _letting you down_ or _should try
| harder_. The word "acceptable" has no place in this
| conversation.
|
| It's fine that you don't want to go out to restaurants
| right now. But you're complaining about how inconvenient
| it is for you like there is no underlying reason for
| things to be in this state. Businesses ate also victims
| of this pandemic.
|
| All of this makes me upset because it sounds extremely
| insensitive. The world is mourning millions of dead and
| you're grumpy about your restaurant experience being
| ruined. Might be just your wording but one would expect a
| bit more empathy.
| [deleted]
| practice9 wrote:
| > To whom? This is why you sound entitled.
|
| > you're complaining
|
| > All of this makes me upset because it sounds extremely
| insensitive.
|
| > The world is mourning millions of dead
|
| > a bit more empathy.
|
| You're attacking a person for their honest opinion while
| knowing almost nothing about them, their life etc. In
| fact _you_ sound angry and insensitive, please keep your
| emotions under control
| jiofih wrote:
| Nice way to turn this into a personal attack. I have
| nothing against this opinion, and said as much above (I
| might even share it). His _attitude_ and wording is
| entitled and disrespectful, like this is an inconvenience
| to him and not the result of worldwide events.
| bruce343434 wrote:
| I disagree. You are allowed to have an opinion about
| something you would pay for. In fact you are allowed to
| have an opinion period. That doesn't make you entitled.
| Broken_Hippo wrote:
| It isn't the opinion that makes them sound entitled.
|
| The base opinion is: I haven't gone to such places since
| Covid began because the experience is less enjoyable and
| more stressful.
|
| But it is said with contempt for the businesses and
| regulations, which the businesses cannot do much about.
| Even where it is open, they have to think about their
| employees and the risk they put them in. Not only that,
| but folks have been dining in tents and under wooden
| awnings - in booths even - enjoyably for decades. Where I
| am at, before covid hit they had heating and blankets
| outdoors so the restaurants could extend the outdoor
| seating season. The poster acts like it something
| horrible thrust upon them, when the fact is that they
| simply aren't a fan.
| blindmute wrote:
| If people liked that sort of thing it would have been the
| business model before it was forced to be. The
| restaurants have declined in quality. Sometimes this is
| their fault, and sometimes it isn't. Either way, no
| restaurant is entitled to customers. A lot of places near
| me have decided that masks are still required, despite
| the state saying they aren't. In response, I have decided
| not to eat there. There's no entitlement either way, just
| the market.
| bruce343434 wrote:
| How can you eat with a mask on? Or are you referring tot
| non-restaurant places?
| blindmute wrote:
| They require a mask at the door and at any time when not
| seated. Some places even require you to put the mask back
| on when the waiter comes to the table. It's all just
| theater, and I won't be a part of it.
| syshum wrote:
| I am sorry you live in an area that does not respect
| freedom.
|
| Around here in door dining was only closed for a couple
| of weeks maybe a month or so. Then it was 50% capacity
| for a few months, then 75%, and we have been fully open
| for in door dinning for several months now
| wombat-man wrote:
| Lol, please stay home as long as possible
| jbluepolarbear wrote:
| Great, I will.
| conductr wrote:
| > and not have to worry about a coughing idiot
|
| That's on you and your location. I've been eating back at
| restaurants just fine for about a year now without a mask
| (for while it was mask on unless at a table, which is a
| bit of a joke to act like that helps anything). It was
| nice being able to walk in anywhere without RSVP but
| that's going away too as more and more people are back to
| work and social activities.
| FractalParadigm wrote:
| Most, if not all restaurants I've been to around my area,
| were already either using or switched to using laminated
| sheets, sometimes bound in a plastic or leather cover.
| Plastic-enclosed paper is trivial to sanitize and lasts a
| VERY long time, plus I would like to imagine a laminator is
| quite a bit cheaper in the long-term than maintaining
| separate menu websites for every individual location.
|
| It's amazing how some can re-invent the simplest of ideas
| simply for the sake of getting tech rammed into the stream.
| colinmhayes wrote:
| The idea of menu costs is an extremely important one in
| restaurant economics. Sure laminated menus may last a
| while but they're a pain in the ass to change. If the
| restaurant wants to add an item or change the prices
| they're pretty much out of luck. None of the 30 or so
| restaurants I've been to post pandemic have had physical
| menus which is definitely not ideal, but I don't see them
| going back to having non zero menu costs.
| a_imho wrote:
| It is not for tech sake, this is building a database.
| Never attribute to incompetence what can be adequately
| explained by bogus engagement KPIs
| tdumitrescu wrote:
| Most of the restaurants I've been to the QR code takes
| you to a PDF of the menu as found on the restaurant's
| website. There's no auth and no way to track anything
| beyond I guess how many times people opened the menu
| file. Restaurants aren't doing this for tracking, they're
| doing it to stay on the good side of public health
| regulations in a period where they've learned they can be
| forcibly closed with barely any warning.
| dgb23 wrote:
| Orders are typically stored anyways?
| atatatat wrote:
| But not how long you stared at the deserts, or what side
| of the "give me lobster" button you pressed.
| w0m wrote:
| Maybe eventually; I haven't seen a PointOfSale system
| that worked remotely well enough I thought they could be
| competent to implement in a useful way.
|
| I tend to not jump to malicious that can be attributed to
| virtue signaling and/or incompetence.
| tomrod wrote:
| Meaningless and trivial metrics, ultimately. Third order
| at best.
| bluGill wrote:
| Probably, but it is still data that is cheap to store. IF
| someone can find something useful in just 1% of those
| things 10 years from now all the cost to collect and
| store all that data will be worth the investment - or so
| they hope. They probably will too - the cost vs reward is
| very skewed.
| birdman3131 wrote:
| A few here went the opposite route. Print the menu
| doublesided with a standard B&W laser printer. Every
| customer gets a new menu and it does not cost a ton
| extra.
| umanwizard wrote:
| That's indeed why they did it, which is silly because
| there's zero evidence that paper restaurant menus are a
| significant risk of covid transmission. It's pure hygiene
| theater.
| colinmhayes wrote:
| Nah, they did it because it makes it super easy to change
| the menu. Physical menus rarely change, online menus can
| change instantly for free.
| greedo wrote:
| It's definitely not free when you consider the
| infrastructure behind providing online menus.
| kevinsundar wrote:
| IDK I've been to restaurants where its just a QR code
| linked to a google drive pdf. Doesn't require much
| infrastructure there.
| colinmhayes wrote:
| Most restaurants already have a website.
| e-clinton wrote:
| Hygiene theater? That's just hygiene. You don't HAVE to
| bathe everyday, nothing will happen if you don't. But
| doing so is just hygiene.
| CWuestefeld wrote:
| A year ago it was generally believed that fomites passed
| by contact was or could be a significant path for spread
| of the covid-19 virus. This turns out not to be the case
| - but that hasn't stopped a huge number of organizations
| from demanding high levels of surface cleansing.
|
| If you're just unusually fastidious, I guess that's your
| right. But when you're claiming (or at least implying)
| that everyone must conform to those same levels _to avoid
| covid-19 transmission_ - which is what we 're still
| seeing quite a bit of - then that's hygiene theater.
| umanwizard wrote:
| If you don't bathe every day, and you have a body that
| produces a lot of sweat, you will look and smell
| disgusting to other people. That's hardly "nothing".
| ta988 wrote:
| This is just yet another way to monetize people data. I saw
| that once and left the restaurant. There was no technical
| problem to solve here. Give paper with checkboxes it is much
| more convenient.
| eCa wrote:
| > Connect to the wifi, get a captive portal
|
| > Need to put my phone number in to connect to the wifi; there
| is no signal, so I need to go outside, to receieve the
| confirmation code.
|
| Somewhere around these steps is where I would leave. It's the
| equivalent of sitting at a table for 15 minutes waiting for the
| waiter to give my group menus[1] - they don't want me as their
| guest.
|
| [1] It happened, both the waiting and the leaving before ever
| getting menus. That restaurant taught me that if the service is
| bad _before_ even ordering the food one shouldn't be afraid to
| leave.
| JoeAltmaier wrote:
| I do that the instant they don't have physical menus. Saves a
| _lot_ of stress.
| ct0 wrote:
| Agreed, technology doesn't need to be everywhere. Id be happy
| with a couple of chalk boards that can be moved around.
| rareform wrote:
| I think your equivalence to sitting at the table and waiting
| 15 mins for the menu is key. If any audience - say less tech
| literate - struggles to get the menu up for longer than they
| would wait to receive a menu from a waiter, then its not
| worth it, and something needs to change.
| carschno wrote:
| I fully agree with the addition that personal interaction can
| make waiting for 15 minutes acceptable if a reasonable
| explanation is given. I can accept that something has gone
| wrong if somebody feels responsible and apologizes for the
| mishap. It might even develop into an occasion for a welcome
| chat with restaurant staff. For instance, I recently visited
| a newly opened restaurant at its 2nd day where we had to wait
| for the food very long. The server apologized and talked
| about the challenges they've encountered, and gave us a free
| soup with bread. This can still be annoying if you are in a
| hurry. However, we were not and so it gave us the opportunity
| to get in touch with the new staff, increasing the likelihood
| of us going back there.
|
| In a non-personal QR code setup, on the other hand,
| responsibility is shifted to some bureaucratic process which
| is nothing but frustrating.
|
| As noted in the article, most/many people do not go out for
| diner to quickly buy and consume a meal, but to spend nice
| time with people. 15 minutes waiting time spent chatting with
| a waiter or with each other even has the potential to
| contribute to a positive experience, whereas 15 minutes
| setting up your smartphone definitely does not.
| eCa wrote:
| > I fully agree with the addition that personal interaction
| can make waiting for 15 minutes acceptable if a reasonable
| explanation is given.
|
| Absolutely. In this case however, there were multiple
| waiters refusing eye contact while passing right by our
| table and there were also other tables right by ours that
| got there after us and was being taken care of. It was as
| if we weren't there.
| FalconSensei wrote:
| > Absolutely. In this case however, there were multiple
| waiters refusing eye contact while passing right by our
| table and there were also other tables right by ours that
| got there after us and was being taken care of. It was as
| if we weren't there.
|
| I would just leave to be honest
| datavirtue wrote:
| Toxic culture with no team work. You were in someone
| else's section. You weren't in a restaurant but at a
| feeding trough.
| w0m wrote:
| Yea; that's a clearly broken system. 2-3 clicks to look at menu
| is fine. Filling in credit card info in-phone is too far.
| ho_schi wrote:
| Adding the next hurdle and man-in-the-middle with "Apple Pay"?
| scrollaway wrote:
| Apple Pay is no more of a hurdle/mitm than whatever payment
| gateway they were using.
| ho_schi wrote:
| Things are not "good" because somebody made you feel it is
| comfortable. 800 Euro for an Apple device, account at
| Apple, network connection with provider and full battery -
| together with a credit card and all of that is no hurdle?
| You can just pay immediately with cash. And nobody will be
| informed about it! Words of critique upon Apple are usually
| not welcome here. When I look how bad entitlement handling
| is with MacOS I have more critique...beware.
| hencoappel wrote:
| I'm not endorsing Apple Pay, but I also don't carry cash,
| so how am I supposed to pay? Sure I can pay by card, but
| now the credit card company knows what I'm buying. Also
| that involves another person who has to come accept the
| payment which I could've done in peace on my phone using
| Apple/Google pay. Not everyone want to carry cash around.
| scrollaway wrote:
| I don't have an iPhone. So, recontextualize my comment in
| that light, and give it a more charitable reading.
|
| Apple pay is, for the poster, a stand in for NFC pay of
| some sort. Which indeed requires a device, which indeed
| is its own class of requirement, but also, cash works
| even if less practical.
| EricE wrote:
| However if I happen to have an Apple device it's by far
| and away the easiest (and most secure) way for me to pay.
| And yes, I do prioritize places that take Apple Pay over
| those that do not.
|
| There are lots of iPhone users and often business can
| getting better (lower) processing fees by accepting more
| secure methods like Apple pay so if it's literally just
| flipping a switch and possibly paying a bit less for
| processing why wouldn't a business do it?
| rndgermandude wrote:
| I would use a QR menu to browse, if it works well enough, and
| otherwise ask for a real menu or else just leave.
|
| What I will not do is make accounts, or fill in an online order
| form. And I will not give out any personal information,
| including my email, without very good reason.
|
| Last year here in Germany the government started to require
| restaurants to take down the name, address, phone number of
| every customer, so they could contact trace if there was an
| outbreak. Fine by me, in these special circumstances. But one
| restaurant we visited actually had a waiter show up with a
| tablet showing some online form I was supposed to fill out. I
| told her "No thanks, please get me a piece of paper and I will
| write it down". The owner then came with pen and paper, and we
| had a nice and friendly chat. He explained that he wanted to
| make it easy and "cool" with tech. It also turned out that his
| "tech-wiz" nephew had coded up that online form for him last
| minute (very cliche :p). I explained to him that while
| understandable, it's actually harder for a lot of people to
| type on these things (including me to a degree) than use a pen
| and paper - the owner thought for a few moments and admitted
| that he too finds it easier to use a real pen "at his age" -
| and that storing this kind of information in digital form is
| just one mishap away from really angry (former) customers and
| GDPR penalties, and how managing this kind of data is actually
| harder to get right in digital form than collecting some pieces
| of paper and running them through the shredder some 4 weeks
| later. We visited the same place about a month later, and they
| had switched to pen and paper entirely. I like to think our
| talk helped them with that decision.
|
| I cannot really fault that owner. He was trying to do the best
| in a suddenly changed and shitty situation, and in his line of
| business he didn't really have to deal with privacy issues and
| the associated dangers and regulations before, other than
| cashless payments where the payment processor does most of the
| heavy lifting and compliance anyway.
| Robotbeat wrote:
| Having to have a phone signal to receive a wifi confirmation
| code is one of my least favorite things ever.
| egman_ekki wrote:
| I can already see myself, as a tourist who buys a US SIM card
| to get data on vacation, having to add a SIM card swap to this
| ordeal to confirm debit card transaction via my EU phone
| number. Why, oh why...
| oleks wrote:
| Aren't most smartphones dual-sim by now?
| rplnt wrote:
| No, most aren't.
| hungryforcodes wrote:
| I would dispute that -- except for iPhones -- almost all
| the smart phones I've seen sold in Asia are dual SIM.
| atommclain wrote:
| My understanding is that the current iPhones offer both a
| traditional SIM card slot along with an esim, which gives
| you the option of two sims provided one of the carriers
| supports esim.
|
| I also believe that current iPhones sold in China support
| two physical SIM cards and no esim.
| rplnt wrote:
| That could have something to do with it. I've ordered
| from India before when I wanted a dual sim android. Local
| stock for that model was single sim only.
|
| Looked at gsmarena now and indeed most models have dual-
| sim versions (as well as single sim). But when I look at
| a local store, it seems that roughly 1/2 has dual sims
| (that's including eSIM).
| malka wrote:
| > sold in Asia
|
| irrelevant.
| colinmhayes wrote:
| If we're talking about tourists it definitely isn't. In
| fact, the phones that are sold in the US are the
| irrelevant ones.
| skocznymroczny wrote:
| Well, Asian phones too I suppose. Most Xiaomi phones if
| not all are dual sim.
| stjohnswarts wrote:
| I refuse to buy phones from Chinese government majority
| owned companies tho.
| hungryforcodes wrote:
| I own Samsungs, and they are all dual SIMS.
| atatatat wrote:
| Only in some nations.
| Joker_vD wrote:
| Some nations even have laws that prohibit selling phones
| locked to a particular cell provider.
| 7952 wrote:
| Could make life easier for tourists wanting to get round a
| language barrier.
| stjohnswarts wrote:
| They will have paper menus available as well. Don't panic.
| [deleted]
| tester34 wrote:
| what if I dont have smartphone?
| xxpor wrote:
| Then sucks for you.
|
| There's not enough people in the demographics the restaurant
| cares about to make an accommodation.
|
| It's like when people complain pages are broken when they
| turn off JavaScript.
| resonious wrote:
| On the general topic of "technology in restaurants", I've
| noticed an increasing number of restaurants where the waitstaff
| uses phones/tablets with some kind of specialized app. This
| happens often: we start telling them our order, and they have
| to say "wait a sec.... (taps phone for several seconds) okay
| what was that?". The "UX" as a patron is pretty bad compared to
| the waitstaff just whipping out a notepad and scribbling as we
| order, or better yet memorizing the orders.
| syshum wrote:
| Several of the large chains already have pay at table kiosk's
| I have always wondered why they just do not have order at
| table as well...
|
| I am waiting for the first restaurant that only has Cooks and
| Food Runners with no traditional waitstaff...
|
| This will likely coincide with the removal of tipping as a
| custom in the US. We will move to kiosk ordering, press a
| button to get drink refills, pay at the table, and leave.
| greenshackle2 wrote:
| > only has Cooks and Food Runners with no traditional
| waitstaff
|
| They've had this in Japan since before tablets in the form
| of vending machine restaurants. You order and pay at a
| vending machine and get a ticket, you sit down and hand in
| your ticket, and someone brings the food to your table.
|
| I haven't been in many years, I guess now they have touch
| screen kiosks instead of old school vending machines.
| xxpor wrote:
| I loved those as a tourist that doesn't speak any
| Japanese. The touch screens would always have an English
| option.
| rdtwo wrote:
| Tipping isn't going away, an entire industry of wage
| suppression and exploitation is based on it
| syshum wrote:
| Except it is not, but ok.
|
| I bet you are one of those people that believe wait staff
| only make $2/hr right?
| jbluepolarbear wrote:
| It's closer to $3/hr before tips. If they don't make
| minimum wage from tips and $3/hr the restaurant must
| supplement to at least minimum wage. That's a lot to just
| make minimum wage.
| syshum wrote:
| Well lets do some math.
|
| Around here an average meal at a restaurant would be
| about $14 lunch and $18 dinner per person.
|
| So to make the often promoted $15/hr wage, the server
| would need to clear $96 in tips over the base wage of
| $3/hr. At an average of 18% tips that would mean the
| ticket revenue would need to be $534 for the shift. @16
| avg per person that is about 4 people per hour, or 1 or 2
| tables per hour
|
| If the restaurant is that slow, that the server is only
| serving 1 table per hour, well chances are the server
| needs to look for another job anyway because that place
| will not be in business very long.
|
| This is also why alot of servers I know prefer the tipped
| model over a higher base wage, if a strait 15/hr wage was
| created with no tips, many servers would make LESS money
| then under the current system
|
| Most of the people calling for a $15/hr base wage have a
| delusional belief they will make $15/hr PLUS tips... that
| is never going to happen
| brewdad wrote:
| > Most of the people calling for a $15/hr base wage have
| a delusional belief they will make $15/hr PLUS tips...
| that is never going to happen
|
| It almost does in Portland. Starting July 1st, it's $14
| plus tips. There is no "tipped employee" minimum wage.
| It's the same for all. I think it will be $13 per hour in
| the rest of Oregon outside the metro area but there may
| be a third level for the most rural counties.
| rdtwo wrote:
| Not everywhere but in some places it happens if it's a
| slow night and the restaurant does some sort of thing
| where they average out all the tips over a week/month. A
| waiter could very well earn 3-4$ per hour if they earned
| 15 on the weekend. It's not legal but it happens.
|
| Even shadier shit happens where the restaurant makes
| employees repot tips that didn't happen to keep above the
| minimum. Then they have to pay taxes off income not
| earned. Is it illegal? Yeah but it's difficult to enforce
| and the people getting screwed are already very
| vulnerable (not your hipster big city wait staff)
| syshum wrote:
| If we are going to dip into the illegal then what makes
| you believe a higher min wage would change the equation.
|
| The context of this conversation is around restaurants
| being able to legally pay less because of tipping,
| however if they willing to violated the laws that we have
| now, why would they not also violate the min wage laws.
| mcguire wrote:
| Have you been to a buffet?
| syshum wrote:
| not recently, most of the buffet's around me closed
| permanently due to covid, while we did allow indoor
| dinning, their was a ban of self service food.
|
| A few converted to carry out only, and have not gone back
| to buffet style.
|
| There are still a few open of course but no where near as
| many, and the ones that survived seems to be of lesser
| quality
| loonster wrote:
| I absolutely stopped going to restaurants that have those
| table tablets. It's just too distracting.
| syshum wrote:
| hmm, I prefer them. I never liked handing my card to wait
| staff where they take off somewhere..
|
| I 100% prefer pay at table, and would 100% prefer order
| at table as well, less chance they get my order wrong
| Grustaf wrote:
| So you trust them to cook your food, but you are worried
| they will take off with your card? Do you live in a first
| world country or a failed state?
| syshum wrote:
| never heard of card skimming have you?
| Grustaf wrote:
| Not really in a first world country, no...
| syshum wrote:
| Well then I guess the US is not the first world by your
| definition since it is very common. Less so with more
| Chip systems but it is still an issue even today
| kn0where wrote:
| Some would argue the US is both.
| antsar wrote:
| Those tablets range from "large-screen credit card
| terminal with order entry" to "brightly flashing ad-
| infested slot machine exploitation box that might let you
| order food if you figure out how to close the fucking
| ads. With a cloud-connected webcam, because why not".
|
| Actually, now that I've think of it, I'm not sure I've
| ever seen the "large-screen credit card terminal with
| order entry" version in real life.
| bombcar wrote:
| Applebees allows you to order from the kiosk. I bet that
| after a few times of doing that you could get a situation
| where the waitress would recognize you and not even stop by
| until she's bringing your order.
|
| I still feel that these products are "sold" to restaurants
| and aren't actually all they're cracked up to be.
| jimbokun wrote:
| My favorite UX mental game is "Can you describe the paper
| interface as a new, innovative system relative to the
| technology solution?"
|
| So with the paper pad waitress experience:
|
| 1. Responsive, zero latency interactions. 2. Accepts free
| form text entry. 3. No multi step UI control lookups. 4.
| Allows entry of customer modifications and requests to items.
| 5. Allows custom abbreviations.
|
| Etc. etc.
| dylan604 wrote:
| I see this as the beginnings of a comedy bit. A group of
| people around a confernece table with someone presenting
| their slide deck. Maybe the conference table is replaced
| with "sharks" in cushy chairs?? At the end the presenter
| says "and now let me show you my invention" while reaching
| into back pocket to whip out a spiral bound note pad with a
| pencil in the spiral. "Oh, one more thing... It comes with
| its own iPencil holder"
| jmkb wrote:
| Supports every written alphabet out of the box, including
| custom emoji. Compatible with any brand of stylus. Can run
| thousands of games. Can go years without a charge. Never
| needs OS updates. Sustainable, recyclable, compostable.
|
| Flashlight mode doesn't last very long, though.
| jamil7 wrote:
| > Flashlight mode doesn't last very long, though.
|
| Is flashlight mode when you set it on fire?
| hypertele-Xii wrote:
| > Compatible with any brand of stylus.
|
| Well except, you know, literally a stylus.
| conductr wrote:
| My biggest cheapskate-old-man gripe is how the UX as you said
| is systemically deteriorating in restaurants yet the tip
| expectations have creeped up from 15% standard to now 25%
| default. And, all apps that compute tip % or recommended tip
| amounts tip on top of tax, which really irks me as just a
| dark pattern to rip off patrons and inflate the tip amount.
| This is US tipping culture at absolute worse.
|
| I hold at 15% standard. Yet, many apps have defaults for 18%,
| 20%, 22%... all way up to 30% from what I've seen. And, they
| allow me to "Custom Tip" which I do once I find it (it's
| usually small and text instead of a button like the presets).
| However, once you select custom I'm back into dollars instead
| of percents so I have to do the math myself (and I don't even
| remember what the total was by this screen). At this point,
| I'm feeling like "okay you just don't want my money then
| because I'm not a whale of a tipper" so I have as some act of
| defiance started just skipping it altogether. I know it's not
| fair for that server but it's what little I can do to voice
| my dissent of the system.
| Camillo wrote:
| A related problem with the apps is that they expand the
| tipping expectation to all sorts of interactions that were
| not traditionally tipped, such as ordering at a cash
| register. You don't need to tip someone just because they
| have an iPad!
| msrenee wrote:
| You're not really voicing your dissent at that point. The
| server gets no tip and doesn't get any indication why. Why
| not just bring cash to tip? Or call the restaurant and talk
| to the manager? Not tipping doesn't accomplish anything and
| the server who has no control over the system and is
| already underpaid gets screwed over.
| conductr wrote:
| > Why not just bring cash to tip? Or call the restaurant
| and talk to the manager?
|
| We're talking patron UX here and point is I don't what to
| shoulder the burden. I didn't even want to calculate 15%
| tip in my head and you want me to start carrying cash
| everywhere, something I haven't done since Y2K was a
| concern. Spend 15 minutes waiting for the manager to come
| over? No thanks.
|
| > Not tipping doesn't accomplish anything and the server
| who has no control over the system and is already
| underpaid gets screwed over.
|
| I view that as "not my problem". I know it's wrong if the
| server gets screwed, I'm not arguing this is a just
| behavior on my part. But, if you extrapolate my behavior
| to all patrons the restaurant would get a hint real quick
| that people didn't want to tip 20%/25% and reduce the
| defaults. They know I'm dissenting it's just that I'm the
| only one dissenting so they're not even paying attention.
| Instead, what is happening is the opposite. Patrons were
| conditioned that 15% is too low. 20% is now standard,
| pushing up to 25% which will be standard in a couple
| years if trend continues.
|
| FWIW, I hate tipping in general. I wish they were paid a
| fair wage and I was billed appropriately on the front
| end.
| twiddling wrote:
| < FWIW, I hate tipping in general. I wish they were paid
| a fair wage and I was billed appropriately on the front
| end.
|
| In several states they are. Washington St. doesn't have a
| lower minimum wage for servers.
| conductr wrote:
| I've visited and really enjoyed that model. I'm in Texas
| and we're not progressive at all in this realm; or many
| other realms when comparing to a progressive state like
| Washington.
| brewdad wrote:
| You are still expected to tip the same as other states
| with the $2.13 minimum for tipped employees. In fact, you
| should be tipping more, so goes the rule of thumb, since
| cost of living is higher.
| msrenee wrote:
| I'm pretty sure most patrons would not be comfortable
| with the server losing money for something they have no
| control over. I'm certainly not going to refuse to tip
| them to make some kind of statement that only punishes
| them.
|
| I guess I don't know how you go from the idea that you
| are accomplishing nothing while making someone else's day
| worse to being able to say "not my problem" and go on
| with your life.
|
| I would much rather they were paid a fair wage. But I'm
| not going to voice my opinion on that matter by refusing
| to give them the money that I personally factor in as
| part of a meal anyway. I get where you're coming from,
| but I don't see how this method of addressing it is
| intended to accomplish anything.
| chihuahua wrote:
| Not only does the "recommended" tipping amount keep going
| up, but in a lot of discussions there's the additional
| bullshit of waiters saying "Well 25% is the bare minimum,
| (if you're a total jerk), but if you tip 35% we'll really
| take care of you!"
|
| To me, a waiter provides no value at all. I'd rather
| order at a counter and pick up the food myself. Then I
| don't have someone asking me "how is everything" when my
| mouth is full. I don't need to pay someone a 30% cut for
| this.
| conductr wrote:
| Yes. The discussions I've seen from waiter expectations
| like you mention is what has soured me the most on
| tipping.
|
| Also, I don't feel like my check size is very related to
| the amount of work involved. At least in my 95% use case
| of 2-4 people. The waiter does the same thing, checks in
| on us just as much, still juggling 5-10 other tables. I'm
| there for an hour. I just don't see $15-30 of value in
| the service I got during my interaction (my typical check
| size is $50-100), that's where I land back on my 15%
| standard. I don't always see that value either, but it's
| what helps me sleep at night.
|
| If I'm with 5+ people or stay longer than an hour or am
| eating at a higher priced place where waiter is probably
| serving fewer tables simultaneously then I adjust
| accordingly.
|
| Another irk of mine is how alcohol falls into this
| equation. If I buy a $50 bottle of wine I'm supposed to
| give $10 tip when usually all they do is open the bottle?
| My rule is a dollar per serving. It's probably outdated
| rule and needs some adjustment for inflation as that's
| been my rule for a long time.
| brewdad wrote:
| Pre-pandemic, some restaurants in my area started adding
| separate tip lines for servers and kitchen staff. While
| nice in theory as a way to recognize the work they do it
| left me feeling confused more than anything. Am I still
| expected to tip 15-20% or more to the server AND an
| additional amount to the rest of the staff? Do I split my
| regular tip amongst both lines? If so, 50-50 or some
| other breakdown.
|
| In the end, I left my usual tip to the server and zero to
| the rest and left it for them to figure out, just like in
| every other restaurant on the planet. Servers make full,
| much higher than Federal minimum wage in my state plus
| tips, so really we should be abolishing tipping at this
| point IMO.
| FalconSensei wrote:
| > Why not just bring cash to tip
|
| If the point is not to keep calculating the tip, that's
| worse. And then we would need to wait to get the change
| on the tip?
| qazxcvbnmlp wrote:
| Yep - and now the waitstaff will gossip about you behind
| your back, give you bad service and thing you're grumpy old
| man.
|
| You thought you were dissenting, but it mostly just
| reflects poorly on you.
|
| Source - brother is a server.
| FalconSensei wrote:
| If I have to do math and input in dollar, I do 10%, which
| is easier to calculate
| peterwandering wrote:
| I would have left after 1 minute. Enough restaurants that work
| without this bullshit. Plus I can't scan a QR code at all with
| my phone.
| stjohnswarts wrote:
| Or you could ask for a printed menu, it's not hard. Every
| place I've been to with QR cards has that option. The sense
| of entitlement and grumpiness these days is unsettling.
| denysvitali wrote:
| Had a similar experience: this awesome takeaway / pizza place
| had an ordering system completely online, great!
|
| The only downside? After deciding what to eat, adding the table
| number and pressing "order"... you discover that you can only
| pay by credit card (I mostly use debit).
|
| No option to pay in cash. I had to go to the cashier, re-order
| everything, tell her my table number and pay in cash.
|
| Not that huge of a deal, first world problems, but still - they
| could have stated right away the payment methods for the online
| thing.
| mxmlndr wrote:
| I had a completely different situation last year. Checked in
| via QR (no account needed), ordered my drinks, got them quick,
| could also pay them with PayPal. The last thing was great
| because I hate waiting for a waiter to get my bill and pay it.
| And I could add tips in this 'app' as well. But maybe I was
| just lucky that my first experience with QR-codes in a
| restaurant was so positive.
| Davertron wrote:
| I've had similar really good experiences, but it's probably
| just luck. The last place I went to they used
| https://pos.toasttab.com/. It was quick, easy, everyone at
| the table was able to pay for their own food without having
| to worry about dividing up the bill, it was easy to order
| additional items without having to wait for the waiter to
| come around, etc. And, fwiw, it didn't seem to affect the
| social aspect of my dinner at all. Normally we all would have
| been sitting quietly looking at the menu, instead we all sat
| quietly and looked at our phones. After we ordered, everyone
| put their phones away and we had a good time.
| conductr wrote:
| It's been hit and miss. I've had good and bad. The best I've
| found are;
|
| 1. QR code to PDF of full actual menu. If they direct you to
| a HTML page is usually awful and is accordion based mobile UI
| that involves a bunch of clicking in and out. A PDF can be
| zoomed in/out but all the content is right there.
|
| 2. QR code to pay. This is great when it comes on your bill
| and you can just pay and leave. However, if it allows Apple
| pay it's very smooth. Unfortunately, most of the systems
| involve a web based checkout flow including manual credit
| card entry and capturing more info than is really needed
| (email/phone) so they can spam you later.
| jbluepolarbear wrote:
| I'm not pulling my phone out at dinner.
| cik wrote:
| QR menus are fantastic here. It's such a pleasurable experience.
| No more menus with something taped or scribbled on it due to a
| pricing adjustment. Given the proliferation of languages spoken
| here, people frequently take a menu and run it through Google
| Translate, literally getting restaurants more business as a
| result.
|
| It's at the point where I just find paper menus antiquated and
| aggravating. Heck, many places just pass out tablets now, for the
| same reason. It's literally easier to pass out cheap tablets with
| the menu already loaded as a PDF, than it is to deal with paper.
| bluedays wrote:
| I do wonder how this effects accessibility. What if I don't have
| a device with me? What if I have a disability that prevents me
| from using a device? Seems like this might be an ADA compliance
| liability.
| xyzelement wrote:
| I am guessing you then ask for a paper menu and they give you
| one. You can probably just do that even if you don't have any
| issues. I've done that a few times when the online menu was
| annoying.
| SavantIdiot wrote:
| Not true at all!
|
| Many bars (that now call themselves "tap houses") have beer
| menus that are either only online, or printed in a 20pt font
| on a 54" LCD TV behind the bar.
|
| It is super annoying to have to get up for each beer because
| the server doesn't know what #32 out of 70 is let alone which
| number is a lager, and then not be able to read the menu
| (because my eyes suck) until I'm leaning over the bar.
|
| Super, super annoying.
| xyzelement wrote:
| That does suck
| pyrale wrote:
| With two competing channels, we won't have to wait long until
| one becomes an afterthought. I personally hope that QR codes
| (or whatever requires to use a smartphone) will be the one
| going the way of the dodo.
| mdoms wrote:
| I have never seen such a restaurant and if I did I would leave
| immediately.
| drdeadringer wrote:
| > One of my family members is in his late 70s, loves dining out,
| and only owns a flip phone with no internet connectivity. He's
| already excluded from much of our increasingly digital society;
|
| I remember reading a Sci-Fi short story where the main character
| was digitally excluded; I forget if this was a criminal sentence
| or a matter of "backwards living" [no offence to Amish and
| similar]. I remember a scene where the main character had to
| interface with a digital menu type of terminal and he couldn't --
| either because of ignorance or legal incapability. A child
| noticed and offered to help him out.
|
| For about 15 years I had a flip phone, well into the "everyone
| has a smart phone now" age. I felt the limitations of no
| internet, no QR, no this, no that. Phone calls and texts only.
|
| I switched after I lost my phone at ... get this ... a Sci-Fi
| convention. And I waited a year between loss and re-
| acquiring//upgrading. Yes I got the "You don't have a cell
| phone?!?" shaming, just as I did the Gibbs flip-phone shaming
| beforehand. Nowadays I "pass" like normal.
|
| Rambling Point Being: This QR Code Menu deal going on... I've
| encountered it, I don't like it either, I've been able to deal
| with it only because I lost and replaced a cell phone.
|
| One physical menu please. Thank you. Sorry for being an cartoon
| alien crab and here I am.
| dec0dedab0de wrote:
| I recently went on a date and had to explain to the waiter that
| we are old, and it's going to take us a while. Which was funny,
| but I don't have a QR reader on my phone, and I wasn't going to
| haphazardly install something at a restaurant just to see the
| whiskey menu.
|
| Luckily, my non-technical date had a mainstream phone that came
| with a QR reader. Using it redirected her to a word doc hosted on
| a google drive. And there was no link to this word doc on the
| restaurants official website.
|
| If you're going to do QR codes, the menu should be available from
| the website, there should be a printed url under the QR code, and
| it should be an actual webpage. Preferably lightweight static
| html.
| nyghtly wrote:
| Regarding the "cashless trend": Isn't this technically illegal in
| the United States? That is to say, all businesses are obligated
| to accept U.S. currency as payment, which includes cash.
| dragonwriter wrote:
| > Isn't this technically illegal in the United States?
|
| Nope.
|
| > That is to say, all businesses are obligated to accept U.S.
| currency as payment
|
| No, they aren't. _If_ there is a preexisting debt, the "legal
| tender" status of currency has some effect especially if there
| isn 't a contracted-for form of payment, but many businesses
| operate payment-first with no debt created, and those that
| don't tend to contractually specify forms of payment.
| refactor_master wrote:
| Please just do away with the back-and-forth dance of paying for a
| meal on literal silver platters. In a busy cash-only restaurant
| you can spend 10 minutes on that alone.
| Grumbledour wrote:
| I read an article a few years back (Though I am unable to find it
| now) that complained about diners taking longer and longer to
| order these days, especially because they play around with their
| phones instead of perusing the menu. (I think this conclusion was
| based on surveillance tapes)
|
| I do wonder if having the menu on your phone could actually be
| more engaging to these kind of diners (or at least prevent them
| from doing anything else), so that the whole ordering food
| process is sped up?
| bell-cot wrote:
| I also recall that. This 7-year-old article pretty much says
| the same thing:
|
| https://gothamist.com/food/restaurant-finds-phone-zombies-sl...
|
| A less-polite phrasing of your theory: Fed-up restaurant owners
| are trying to claw back as much as they can from the overhead
| and miseries of dealing with phone-addicted customers.
| jordemort wrote:
| This is just the same old "phones are destroying our society and
| I'm better than other people because I avoid them" article with a
| pandemic spin.
| ijcd wrote:
| X
| gizmo wrote:
| > Please die.
|
| You can't post like this here.
| ijcd wrote:
| X
| thiscatis wrote:
| This has been a really interesting thread for us, if anyone
| commenting here wants to provide some more feedback on QR code
| based menus and payment at table and have a more in-depth
| discussion feel free to reach out at hn@pomelopay.com.
|
| We have a product directly related to this which we're always
| keen to improve - https://www.pomelopay.com/features/table-
| ordering
| RandallBrown wrote:
| > Have you gone to a restaurant with your boomer parents during
| the pandemic?
|
| Have you gone to a restaurant with your boomer parents _before_
| the pandemic? They still pull out their phone to use the
| flashlight or even take photos of the menu so they can zoom in.
|
| This piece is bizarre in that they say they don't like something,
| give a BUNCH of reasons why other people might like it, then just
| dismiss it entirely because they don't like it.
| vmception wrote:
| > Before the pandemic, I'd shudder at the sight of a restaurant
| table full of people all staring at their phones. I was always
| happy not to be them or be sitting with them. I always kept the
| lively conversation flowing at my table.
|
| I always thought this perspective was funny because it always
| assumed what the people on their phones were doing. The
| assumption is that they are disengaged with each other when it's
| just as likely that they are talking with each other in a group
| chat alongside a few other non-present participants in the same
| group chat, and all trying to share photos with each other that
| they just took from the outting beforehand, or setting up a way
| to split costs in advance, or something else equally or more
| interactive than a conversation you can eavesdrop on.
|
| Usually it's just shitty UX slowing them down.
| saiya-jin wrote:
| Same crap no matter what... can't believe I am feeling old
| school for actually wanting to interact with people eye to eye
| when meeting them. Luckily all our friends have same approach,
| so we either don't have phones with us at all (because why
| really), or somewhere in deep pocket and untouched for whole
| evening. Refreshing feeling, one should try it from time to
| time
| vmception wrote:
| you're only "old school" because you can't imagine the
| reasoning or are projecting what you would do with a phone
| and are avoiding. you are imagining that everyone else just
| showed up at that point and disengaged. could be the case,
| could not be, you can't distinguish and it isn't your role
| to. Healthier to assume they aren't disengaged, if you must
| assume anything.
|
| other reasons I would have my phone with me would be for the
| uber/shared ride to and from the location, to potentially pay
| for the meal or incidentals, to potentially take photos, to
| share my location with someone looking for me usually in that
| group that hasn't arrived yet, or continue sharing my
| location to people I always do. I hear this last part is
| taboo, but maybe even text message someone.
| dkarp wrote:
| > it's just as likely that they are talking with each other in
| a group chat alongside a few other non-present participants in
| the same group chat
|
| To me, that's just as bad. Spend time with the people you're
| with while you're with them. Text the others later. But
| different strokes!
| vmception wrote:
| Okay then, it is just as likely they are only talking with
| each other in a group chat made specifically for sharing
| media and coordination, and not any non-present participants.
|
| Sitting down at some kind of place to eat is remarkably one
| of the only places where there is organic down time to
| synchronize media.
|
| I do have enough self awareness to joke with my friends that
| out of touch people think we are probably just disengaged
| with each other on our phones.
| deergomoo wrote:
| It always irritated me because it's incredibly condescending
| (the author's view, not yours).
|
| Since we both work from home, my fiancee and I spend the vast
| majority of our day together. Sometimes everything we have to
| talk about has already been talked about during the day, and we
| just want to relax over some nice food. There's nothing wrong
| with us reading stuff on our phones while we wait for the meal
| to arrive.
| fleddr wrote:
| The modern "consensus" seems to be that at such events, many if
| not most people do leave their phone in their pocket for a good
| first hour or so. So a basic awareness still exists.
|
| Then comes the predictable ice breaker event. Somebody, as part
| of their conversation, needs their phone to show you something.
| The car they want to buy. Looking up a fact to settle your
| argument.
|
| The first phone comes out, starting the phone avalanche.
| Everybody knows its ok now, and check their messages or
| whatever. The seal is broken.
|
| The addiction is so widespread that we're still at full denial
| stage at society level.
|
| Because the true reason almost everybody is itchy to pull out
| that phone is so bitter that it cannot be said out loud, but I
| will:
|
| Whatever is on that phone, you find more interesting than your
| friends. And quite likely, because it really is more
| interesting. Because your phone can do anything and is full of
| surprises, yet your friend is not.
|
| Downvote me, the truth hurts.
| vmception wrote:
| > Downvote me, the truth hurts.
|
| I don't think anyone cares enough actually
|
| We aren't triggered by this possible reality
|
| There are limits to the etiquette and whats considered rude
| but it has shifted
|
| Its the level of engagement, not the presence of the device
| itself
| jbluepolarbear wrote:
| I mean, if that's how you and your friends want to hang. I
| don't like that experience and choose to go to restaurants with
| people I'd like to eat with and talk to in person. For me,
| pulling out the phone at dinner is rude. Whatever it is can
| wait the until after dinner.
| vmception wrote:
| It's happened before. Its not usually relevant when we only
| showed up to eat. Its usually relevant after a days worth of
| activities with media that was meant to be shared, and then
| the day eventually included eating.
|
| The only point is that you don't know what others are
| actually doing and it doesn't matter what the explanation is.
|
| Even amongst this crowd, disengaging with someone at dinner
| is rude. The device used to disengage has little to do with
| that.
| jbluepolarbear wrote:
| I'm saying I don't care what others are doing. If the
| restaurant wants people on their phones I'll go somewhere
| else. If there's a party that chooses to be on their phones
| that's fine. I just won't be using my phone or eating on
| the company of others on their phone.
| PretzelPirate wrote:
| It's only rude if it isn't expected. If reading the menu
| requires a phone, having your phone out is expected and not
| rude. If needing to take out your phone at the beginning of
| dinner is enough to distract your friends throughout the rest
| of the meal, perhaps there are larger problems than how you
| order food.
|
| When I eat with people we use our phones to order and then
| put them away when they're no longer necessary. It doesn't
| change the dining experience at all and people still talk to
| each other.
| madjam002 wrote:
| One restaurant that I went to requires a QR code, you scan it and
| get a menu, have to choose everything you want to order, have to
| enter your personal details (name, phone, email, address) and
| card details.
|
| Unfortunately the food is pretty good there.
| tjpnz wrote:
| We've just come out of a period in Tokyo where alcohol wasn't
| allowed to be served. I visited a few restaurants during that
| time with QR code menus and none of them were updated to reflect
| that fact. I'm not sure why that was but if they're not easy to
| update there's no real benefit to them over traditional menus.
| Zigurd wrote:
| It all depends on how well-implemented, or not.
|
| For example, Toasttab QR codes on the paper tab work brilliantly.
| They do not require the restaurant to retool with thousands of
| dollars of mobile devices for servers. Excellent use of a QR
| code.
|
| As others have pointed out, getting a pdf that does not format
| well on your smartphone is a disappointing experience, but that
| is not the fault of the QR code. The problem is in what comes
| after.
|
| You _could_ be able to order from your table via smartphone, but
| usually you can 't because the landing page is a dumb pdf of a
| paper menu, and the QR code does not include information about
| which table you are at, and the restaurant systems need human
| intervention to know when to open a new tab.
| Philip-J-Fry wrote:
| I used a self serve coke machine the other week. You scanned a QR
| code and then your phone would connect remotely to the machine.
| You selected your drink and then you pressed the dispense button
| on your phone. Neat tech but unusable if you don't have data or
| don't have a good signal. And it had a noticeable delay from
| pressing the button to when the actual device would stop. If you
| were unlucky I'm sure that somehow you could end up overfilling
| your cup and spilling it everywhere. Didn't look like it had much
| in the way of drainage.
| earnesti wrote:
| Why not both? Qr codes are sometimes quickest, as you dont need
| to wait for the waiter to bring the menus.
| placatedmayhem wrote:
| At the same time the hostess asks "Would you like crayons for
| the toddler?", it'd be simple to add "We have a digital menu,
| but would you like physical menus?". Or even a put "Physical
| menu available on request" below the QR code.
| somehnacct3757 wrote:
| Literally every restaurant I've eaten at since reopening has QR
| menus, but the host/hostess always asks if we want paper menus.
|
| Maybe the author can ask for the paper menu instead of writing
| manufactured outrage articles.
| throwyuno wrote:
| Yes, my partner and I recently went out to eat and did not
| bring our phones. I said, "We don't have our phones." The
| server brought us paper menus, and we were all OK.
| CaptArmchair wrote:
| It's valid to ask this question: What problem(s) are digital
| menu's really solving? I can spot a handful.
|
| For restaurant owners: ease of updating the menu (pricing,
| dishes, suggestions,...), (perceived) lower cost of maintaining
| paper menu's (whether disposable or reusable).
|
| For patrons: you can bookmark the menu if it's a webpage on the
| restaurant's website, there's (perceived) accessibility (e.g.
| font zooming) but that's offset with the higher bar of scanning a
| QR code.
|
| Maybe there's a niche market to be spotted for BI / data
| acquisition? It would be quite a tenuous proposition, since
| consulting a menu isn't the sames as capturing orders. Not to
| mention the hairy privacy issues associated here.
|
| Here's an alternate business case where the perceived benefits of
| QR codes are greatly diminished pending the specific context:
| museums and galleries. The success of using QR codes works
| pending on the type of audience, the type of collection, the
| vision on the specific user experience a museum wants to achieve,
| the ability to spend time / resources on providing and keeping
| digital content up to date, time spend helping people out,...
| It's not as easy as "slap QR codes on a wall, and they will be
| scanned."
|
| In the same vain, QR codes may work well in some venues, and they
| won't work at all in others. Context matters. A lot. For
| instance, if you operate a bar or restaurant in a cozy, 19th
| century, cottage setting and you want to foster that specific
| atmosphere / experience towards your patrons, sticking QR codes
| to the old wood would immediately detract from that. I don't see
| QR codes work greatly either if your into a gastronomic / gourmet
| niche for instance. Opposite of the spectrum, there's fast food
| chains and loads of small businesses who just want to get food
| out of the door and not much more: to them, a menu is just a
| business expense and a QR code is a good solution to cut costs.
|
| I don't really mind QR codes. When I go to a run-of-the-mill
| place for take out, I don't mind scanning a code. My expectations
| will change, however, if I'm going to spend time and money hoping
| to get a specific experience out of it.
| CamelRocketFish wrote:
| One benefit of them is reduction is paper waste. If a restaurant
| needs to update its menu, it doesn't need to do a reprint, it can
| just update the website.
| jxidjhdhdhdhfhf wrote:
| At my local watering hole, I love the new post-COVID ordering
| process. You scan the QR code, place your order on their website
| and they bring it straight to your table. IMO as someone who has
| been a server, it's better for the servers too because they don't
| have to take orders from customers (the most painful part of the
| process).
| apurtbapurt wrote:
| In Sweden the QR menues tend to be based on Facebook messenger.
| The restaurants that use this system also tend to push very hard
| for avoiding manual orders and payments. It is a complete farce
| every time, since most of the people I go out with don't use
| Facebook. We are usually not the only patrons annoyed by this, so
| I hope they give up soon. I will never go pack to a place that
| don't let me order normally.
| pyrale wrote:
| > The restaurants that use this system also tend to push very
| hard for avoiding manual orders and payments.
|
| This is the real issue I see with this system going forward.
| Becoming a second-class client simply because I don't have a
| cell-phone on me at all times is not going to be great.
| swayvil wrote:
| Yes. Experienced this for the first time just a couple days ago.
| Couldn't get the damn thing to work. Bunch of BS. I just want a
| dang menu.
| Larrikin wrote:
| Digital menus can work when they are made for the digital format.
| Most Qr codes are just the menus that were made to look beautiful
| on paper and suck to look at on your phone, I don't want to have
| to open up my phone and jump between pages on two separate
| documents on my phone. It's also terrible that I have to waste my
| battery life to order food every time.
|
| The ideal situation is isn't the China situation people are
| describing of scanning with their phone and opening an app or
| custom made site, it's the situation in Japan with a small tablet
| on the table everyone just puts their orders into and food is
| delivered as the orders are received when combined with a call
| bell for refills or asking questions. I don't have to install
| anything or worry about tracking.
| scrollaway wrote:
| > _Most Qr codes are just the menus that were made to look
| beautiful on paper and suck to look at on your phone_
|
| This is only the case because restaurants had to hurriedly find
| a solution to a bazillion problems at once, on a strained
| budget. Corners get cut.
| otachack wrote:
| This is a point I see missing in many of the top level posts,
| here. Restaurants literally went to the easiest solution for
| a more sanitary and viral transmission-free method to
| communicate a menu to customers. Of course it isn't going to
| be perfect. But everyone is a critic.
| dzhiurgis wrote:
| Indeed, pair it with Apple Pay and it's like 5 tap deal.
|
| QR code already knows which table it is and even payment can be
| optional after the meal (tho I got so used to paying before I
| might just leave without paying nowadays).
| [deleted]
| pontiacbandit8 wrote:
| This article is so subjective it does not make a single case to
| support the title.
| vzaliva wrote:
| As person with poor vision I would love digital menus to stay. I
| could not count how many times I've struggled to read a badly
| designed menu in a dim dining room. On my phone it is always
| bright and I can zoom.
| teeray wrote:
| The worst aspect of QR codes as menu replacements is that they
| are a huge security risk. Who's to say that QR code is legit? You
| can't tell from looking at it. The trouble is compounded by the
| common practice of restaurants using some third-party service
| hosted off-site. The domain is no longer a trust signal either.
| It's only a matter of time before someone starts snarfing
| information or credit card numbers this way (scan here to pay
| your bill).
| wruza wrote:
| It's usually just a menu, not e-shoping at the table. Why would
| they even implement that, if a waiter has to greet you, bring
| orders and clean up anyway?
| dabfiend19 wrote:
| ordering and paying through the QR code is now pretty common
| place in NYC. fewer waiters can attend more tables.
| Pamar wrote:
| How does tipping works in those places?
| Jcowell wrote:
| The same way other ordering services does it you can
| either do it through the app or you can always leave cash
| on the table as always.
| soylentgraham wrote:
| Its usually payment whilst ordering via the site/menu. (Uk)
| Server just brings food/drinks and doesnt deal with money.
|
| I wish they would just take orders from the site, but pay
| with a card machine which 107% of people are used to.
| driverdan wrote:
| I would leave if they won't take payment in person. No way
| am I signing up for some shitty online service to pay for
| an in-person meal.
| jackson1442 wrote:
| I personally much prefer scanning a code on my receipt
| then pressing the apple pay button to handing my debit
| card with all my payment details on it to a stranger.
| atatatat wrote:
| Malicious Scan Here to Pay on the fuel dispenser/charger, etc
| Marsymars wrote:
| I'm pretty sure that the only compromised credit card I've had
| in the past decade was due to something along these lines.
|
| I called a restaurant to get some takeout on Valentine's Day
| (one that I'd been to for dine-in previously, and had great
| food), and they told me that they didn't do phone orders, only
| online orders. I placed my food order, and was immediately also
| hit with a pending charge of <$1 for a utility provider in a
| difference province where I've never lived. (I get email
| notifications of credit card transactions.) Called bank and
| they cancelled card, so it didn't progress any further.
|
| I'm not inclined to eat at that restaurant again, or to ever
| order food online again.
| bigiain wrote:
| It certainly crossed my mind to print up some QR Code stickers
| that connect you to a wifi network named %p%s%s%s%s%n when you
| scan them, to slap over random ones around...
|
| http://api.qrserver.com/v1/create-qr-code/?color=000000&bgco...
| Karrot_Kream wrote:
| Most of the places I've been to just put their menu on a
| website linked through QR code, but still take orders and
| payment through staff. I've been to one place that doesn't do
| this but only one.
| bootlooped wrote:
| But if a malicious QR code led to a website that asked diners
| to pay for their meal at the point that they ordered it, how
| many of them would?
| Dylan16807 wrote:
| Setting up a scam payment processing account for that
| doesn't seem worth the effort when it's going to be
| reported for fraud basically immediately.
| bootlooped wrote:
| I think you could set up something clever where the QR
| code redirected to the correct menu 95% of the time, and
| maybe it didn't charge the credit card initially, and
| that would last longer than if you had charged something
| immediately 100% of the time. However, I think your point
| still stands that it's not worth the trouble and it
| doesn't scale well.
| bigiain wrote:
| "To pay for your 1 x Cheeseburger add egg, please
| purchase a $10 iTunes gift card and enter the code here:
| [_______________]"
| kebman wrote:
| You'd be surprised.
| jrnichols wrote:
| > restaurants using some third-party service hosted off-site.
|
| agreed. it's become frustrating. I shouldn't have to make an
| account with some 3rd party to view specials. Also shouldn't
| have to look at 2002 style desktop publishing to try to find a
| menu either.
|
| some have been well done. but not nearly enough.
| nly wrote:
| One plus for restaurants seems to be they can make you pay prior
| to, rather than after, your meal.
|
| I'm a bit worried this practice will live past COVID simply
| because of this.
| squiggleblaz wrote:
| It is trivial to get people to pay for their meal before
| eating. In Australia it's very common in some kinds of place,
| in a way that I understand confuses some tourists.
|
| The reason these QR codes would last is because of the
| telemetry and tracking they will enable.
| elric wrote:
| It's really simple: if I can't read your menu, I'm not eating.
| Goodbye. IIRC there's a law here that mandates a menu visible
| from outside the premises, it isn't always followed to the
| letter, but but most places comply, and it's a great way to avoid
| unpleasant pricing surprises.
|
| Same with paying. You don't accept cash or credit cards? Goodbye.
| You only accept apple pay or some other nonsense payment system?
| Goodbye. And you'd better advertise your accepted payment methods
| outside if you want to avoid unpleasant surprises.
|
| There are plenty of restaurants/bars out there. I'm not spending
| money in any place that clearly doesn't want me there.
|
| And if you really insist on a silly QR menu, then at least
| include a human readable version of the URL. Seriously. It's not
| that hard.
| benhurmarcel wrote:
| Where I live, refusing to load a menu from a QR code would
| drastically reduce your options to eat out during the pandemic.
| Yes there are plenty of restaurants, but 95% of them now use a
| QR code that links to the menu (usually a PDF).
|
| You're free to leave, but you'll cook at home.
| dual_dingo wrote:
| > And if you really insist on a silly QR menu, then at least
| include a human readable version of the URL. Seriously. It's
| not that hard.
|
| OK, here is the URL: >
| http://customer0931.incompetentagency.com/?location=2k12kx&i...
|
| Have fun :)
| elric wrote:
| I would argue that doesn't quite qualify as human readable
| ... Surely something like https://restaurant.tld/menu would
| make more sense ...
| dual_dingo wrote:
| Of course this is not useful or really human readable. It
| was meant as a "Be careful what you ask for" to the parent
| post and refers to the fact that at least in my part of the
| world, most restaurants are not part of a big chain and
| often end up with digital service/ad agencies of very
| dubious quality where this kind of URL would be completely
| acceptable both for the business owner and the agency
| because both just don't know any better.
| lowercased wrote:
| After 20 years of web, I still see commercially printed
| URLs on signs/buildings/cars/etc that do not understand
| redirects.
|
| I saw http://www.ourcompany.com/sub/registration.aspx on
| printed on a glass door the other day - looked like etching
| at first, but may have something else? This was at a local
| theater/event space, IIRC.
|
| "ourcompany.com/register" is infinitely more
| understandable, and unsure why no one in the chain of
| command for that decision didn't press for something
| simpler. But they often don't (still). I remember seeing an
| email printed on a service truck back... 2002? 2003? "Email
| us as www.myservicename@yahoo.com". I never tried it -
| perhaps they actually had that email, but I suspect people
| were still in the habit of saying "www dot" before anything
| that had to do with "internet".
| mkr-hn wrote:
| I think most people will just Google the URL and
| (usually) get the correct address as the first result.
| This might even be an intentional (if misguided) SEO
| strategy.
| aclelland wrote:
| There are a bunch of trucks outside my house at the
| moment laying fiber cabling. The email address for the
| company is basically 'buildingcompany.co.uk@gmail.com'
| and this isn't a tiny firm.
|
| It left me wondering whether the bosses if the company
| just don't care or if they were told by the web design
| company they hired for their site that it'd add thousands
| to the website cost and decided against it.
| atatatat wrote:
| It makes no difference to the box-checkers hiring them,
| so therefore,
| NavinF wrote:
| > You don't accept cash or credit cards? Goodbye.
|
| Where did you encounter such a restaurant?
|
| I'd estimate that 99.9% of restaurants accept credit in the US
| based on the anecdote that I've only had to pay 1 restaurant in
| cash over the last decade.
|
| How would a restaurant refuse both credit and cash? Do they
| make you pay before eating?
| moelf wrote:
| these are everywhere in China now. They use WeChat pay or
| Alipay :)
|
| I haven't been there in almost 3 years so it must have gotten
| a lot worse now, I doubt I can survive next time I visit.
| atatatat wrote:
| Plenty of guides on registering burners for this app, no?
| moelf wrote:
| how am I suppose to have a burner bank account to use
| with it? don't forget mobile number are associated with
| your identity in China
| biztos wrote:
| > associated with your identity in China
|
| Isn't this true everywhere, just not effectively
| enforced?
|
| You are generally _supposed_ to provide ID and a street
| address to the phone company when your number is
| activated. Some places treat that as just a formality and
| will take any number and address in the right format, but
| at least in the EU it's the law and they have to
| "require" it.
|
| Are straight-up burner phones a la "The Wire" still a
| thing in the US?
| driverdan wrote:
| > Are straight-up burner phones a la "The Wire" still a
| thing in the US?
|
| Of course. Why would you have to provide an ID to buy a
| prepaid SIM card?
| swiftcoder wrote:
| Quite a few places went to online-only payment during the
| pandemic. And while you can pay online with a credit card,
| you can't actually pay by presenting the physical card at
| point of sale - which is argue counts as "not accepting
| credit cards" for a significant minority of the population
| (those without smartphones, primarily)
| arp242 wrote:
| I don't have any of this stuff set up on my phone either,
| and I don't tend to have my credit card with me at all
| times either. So even _with_ a phone I wouldn 't be able to
| pay.
| lowercased wrote:
| > How would a restaurant refuse both credit and cash?
|
| Might have been at a Czech place. ;)
| Freak_NL wrote:
| The basic principle that you should be able to go out and
| participate in society without an Apple or Google smartphone
| should be heralded as common sense.
|
| (Feel free to put up a URL and a QR code for the menu online
| _in addition to_ paper menus though.)
| npteljes wrote:
| Push notifications should be a public utility, or
| standardized at least. I can't believe how much we depend on
| them, despite them being served only by their one
| corresponding company.
| frockington1 wrote:
| How do you depend so much on push notifications? If you are
| receiving so many you may want to adjust your settings. It
| is not good for your mental health nor your productivity to
| be constantly distracted by notifications on a phone
| npteljes wrote:
| I don't depend on them but banking apps do, for one, and
| I'd hate to arrive to a world where the communication
| channels are all proprietary. In my opinion, protocols
| should be open, services should be interchangeable. And
| so push notifications, as a they are means of
| communication, should be provided as a service so that
| you could choose providers and such.
| RandallBrown wrote:
| I'm not sure I have push notifications turned on for any
| of my banking apps.
|
| I do get notifications from my banks through text and
| email.
| stjohnswarts wrote:
| I greatly prefer the QR codes and don't really experience issues
| with them too often. Much better than germ encrusted menus.
| gbasin wrote:
| What will actually happen is QR code menu experiences will get
| better, and paper menus will ... stay stagnant. A tale as old as
| time
| devney wrote:
| That's great! As other commenters here have mentioned an online
| menu accessed by a QR code can have lots of extra features:
| multiple languages, filters for gluten/nuts/etc.
|
| Meanwhile since I, speaking the local language and not having
| special dietary needs, want to look at a paper menu while my
| fone stays in my pocket.
|
| I don't think anyone is actually arguing against having the
| QR/online menu. That's a great thing. What we're complaining
| about here is that restaurants have taken away the IRL menu.
| jackson1442 wrote:
| Have you actually been to anywhere that has refused to give
| you a paper menu? Everywhere I've been lately has either
| clearly had a stack of menus up front that you can grab on
| the way to your table or the waitstaff has given us
| (typically fewer than are in our party) paper menus.
| Typically one or two of us will use the paper menu and the
| rest will use the digital menu.
|
| Payment by QR on the receipt, however, is absolutely
| fantastic. A place near me uses Toast and it just opens an
| app clip, has me review my receipt, touch Apple Pay, and I'm
| done. I've always felt uncomfortable giving my server full
| access to my debit card details just to pay for a meal.
| driverdan wrote:
| What does that even mean? Paper menus don't need to change,
| they work perfectly fine as they are.
| Sparkyte wrote:
| QR code should be to go menus. It looks stupid to sit there
| flipping through a 5-6 inch screen to identify what food or dish
| you're looking at.
|
| My favorite method put the menu into the table with a glass top.
| Better than people touching.
| amerine wrote:
| I had the most amazing experience at Oregon City Brewing with my
| good friend as my first post-pandemic drink. They had pretty
| standard paper menus with drink lists, but the QR code popped up
| a version that let you pick a few AND PAY using Apple Pay, Google
| Pay, then you got your drinks delivered by the same friendly
| waitstaff. It was a great experience and no cash or cards
| exchanged hands. I think more quick serve/bars should be doing
| this.
| rory_isAdonk wrote:
| Its a shame we cant simply condense the entire menu into a QR
| code as opposed to a link.
| cm2012 wrote:
| If you go to a restaurant with boomers it's a huge annoyance.
| Their older phones can't read qr codes.
| mattacular wrote:
| Definitely not looking forward to it whenever I get to travel
| internationally again and am relegated to free 2G or 3G networks
| and trying to load a restaurants heavy website just so I can look
| at the menu.
| hortense wrote:
| One thing that is fantastic about digital menus is that you can
| _search_ in them.
| tonyaiken wrote:
| I really hate paying with waiter. I have to wait for waiter to
| come to table and call for bill, wait for the bill to come, wait
| for waiter to pick up bill and card, wait for waiter to get my
| card back and then sign. It's so damn long process. I really love
| to have the bill ready anytime and pay with my phone or a kiosk
| on the table and just leave.
| SavantIdiot wrote:
| No kidding! I got in the habit of not taking my phone with me
| everywhere I go, and suddenly QR codes and beer-tap menus are all
| online? Great.
| throwyuno wrote:
| What happens when you tell the staff you don't have your phone?
| Do they not bring you a menu at that point?
| RalfWausE wrote:
| First: I am from germany, so, my perspective may differ from
| other parts of the world... and due to the pandemic, my last meal
| eaten in an restaurant was in the early beginnig of 2020. But i
| really never, never encountered a menu via QR Code... why would
| anyone want this?! If you are going to eat out, then it is (at
| least with the people i know) considered ab-so-lu-tely rude to
| even get your phone out (unless you are an doctor on call), using
| it would be a totally no-go. So... this is something i am really
| glad that it has not washed at our shores... at least not yet.
| keymone wrote:
| where in germany are you? in HH it's about 50/50 these days on
| paper vs QR menus.
| Thomaschaaf wrote:
| Here in Braunschweig (a smaller city) a lot of restaurants are
| using QR Code based menus. So I would assume you simply haven't
| been eating out.
| RalfWausE wrote:
| _Sigh_ and there my hopes are going out the window...
|
| So... now i have to select even more where i go when i am
| (finally) vaccinated next month...
| sofixa wrote:
| > First: I am from germany, so, my perspective may differ from
| other parts of the world... and due to the pandemic, my last
| meal eaten in an restaurant was in the early beginnig of 2020
|
| > So... this is something i am really glad that it has not
| washed at our shores... at least not yet
|
| How can you know if you haven't eaten in a restaurant since
| early 2020? Here in France, i had absolutely never seen it
| before the pandemic, but now it's ubiquitous even if roughly
| half the places also have a paper menu they can give/give
| anyways.
| tarsinge wrote:
| I'm from France and I have never seen that, but well there
| are "restaurants" and restaurants I guess.
| sofixa wrote:
| Where do you live? In the Paris area it's hard to find a
| restaurant _without_ a QR code on their tables.
|
| Trips in the last year to various cities left me with the
| impression that QR codes are pretty ubiquitous in most
| restaurants fancier than your corner kebab shop but below
| La Tour d'Argent and co.
| tarsinge wrote:
| I live near Paris, but I admit did not go in many
| restaurants since they have reopened. I was under the
| impression that QR code only existed in restaurant
| chains, not in the regular restaurants. I have a hard
| time to see how the huge range of good restaurants where
| the menu is on a slate that change everyday and the
| waiter explain each item to you would use QR code, but I
| may be wrong.
| sofixa wrote:
| Those that only do a daily menu on a slate still do so;
| some of those that used to do a ~daily menu with a
| printed sheet of paper either continue to do so or have a
| QR code to a regularly updated site. Those that did a mix
| ( fixed menu with daily options) often have the slate
| with daily options and a QR code for the basics.
| tarsinge wrote:
| I see, it's surprising and I stand corrected then.
| meheleventyone wrote:
| Here in Iceland they've popped up primarily for outdoor seated
| areas. Presumably so the wait staff don't have to keep an eye
| outside and inside particularly as the outside seating tends to
| be more densely packed. There seems to be a pretty standardized
| web app as well which lets you order and pay in the app and
| then your food and drinks just magically appear.
|
| That said the last time we used it was a bit of a fiasco as the
| web app was out of date with the actual menu. So we ordered and
| paid then the waiter had to come out and swap a bunch of stuff
| around. I have no idea why they didn't just take the QR codes
| down until they fixed things but there you go.
| zimpenfish wrote:
| > it is (at least with the people i know) considered ab-so-lu-
| tely rude to even get your phone out
|
| Whereas with people I know, it's not because / people have
| kids|partners they check in with / people sometimes just don't
| have the energy for constant peopling and the phone is a brief
| respite / people are sysadmins|on-call and get occasional blip
| warnings / people are checking on something to answer a
| question / etc.
| vmception wrote:
| As an American that visits Germany, I absolutely hate how
| eating at a restaurant is seen by many as an event where you
| hang out forever, as opposed to a routine service I expect as a
| fairly quick and formulaic pitstop between other obligations.
| There seems to be no difference between classes of dining out,
| in this regard.
|
| I also suspect you are out of touch. QR code menus and payments
| were not a thing in the US before the beginning of 2020 either.
| It was a very quick adaptation because the infrastructure was
| already there.
| advanced-DnD wrote:
| > I absolutely hate how eating at a restaurant is seen by
| many as an event where you hang out forever, as opposed to a
| routine service I expect as a fairly quick and formulaic
| pitstop between other obligations.
|
| Cultural difference. If you don't want to spend time with
| your friends then don't accept invitations of going to a
| restaurant.
| atatatat wrote:
| What if I want to socialize with people before, during, and
| after we eat...just for 20 minutes, though, not an hour
| plus?
| nitwit005 wrote:
| It is a cultural difference, but it's fairly clear it
| wasn't always enjoyed. People in some parts of Europe
| really appreciated fast food places when they first started
| appearing, as it gave them an option that cut out much of
| the restaurant meal time expenditure.
| RalfWausE wrote:
| As i mentioned: No dining out after March 2020... but this
| will change next month (finally).
|
| Your observation is correct: Many germans _like_ to stay in
| an restaurant es an _event_ , not just to eat something quick
| ... for this purpose there are tons of Pommesbuden, bakerys
| or Donerladen.
| vmception wrote:
| Although I do hate it when aspects of Germany become more
| like America, I do wish that sit down nice restaurants had
| wait staff that checked on us a little more frequently with
| the expectation that maybe we want to leave!
| herbst wrote:
| The not 'checking on you' is the whole point we prefer
| about our 'system'. Just call them if you need something
| and otherwise they let you enjoy your time without
| permanent nagging or time pressure
| brummm wrote:
| I actually find this super irritating in American
| restaurants. Just let us enjoy our meal in peace...
| vmception wrote:
| Yeah there is a happy medium that alot of wait staff gets
| wrong here in the states
| ThePadawan wrote:
| I've had an OK experience with just demanding the bill
| when your table's last plates are being taken away.
| ubercore wrote:
| As an American sitting in Germany right now, I think that
| wait staff here aren't bothered if you try to actively
| get their attention like they might be in the USA. Making
| eye contact or a polite wave, etc. Feels rude based on US
| service, but I see people doing that more often here.
| RalfWausE wrote:
| The best thing in most restaurants is - as soon as the
| waiter is something near you - just say "I would like to
| pay the bill", or in german "Ich wurde gerne zahlen".
| squiggleblaz wrote:
| > No dining out after March 2020... but this will change
| next month (finally).
|
| Is that something that very much depends on the region, or
| a personal obligation? I've eaten in restaurants in
| Hamburg, Berlin and Munich during pandemic (summertime last
| year until about November, and since June this year).
| Eating this year has been limited to outdoors, but that's
| fine.
|
| (None have had this crazy QR code link menu idea. I have
| always received a traditional menu and ordered by asking
| the staff what I want at the appropriate time.)
| RalfWausE wrote:
| >Is that something that very much depends on the region,
| or a personal obligation?
|
| Its a personal obligation: My wife and i, we life in the
| same building as my older parents (in a big old half-
| timbered farmhouse)... so, until now (both parents are
| vaccinated, my wife got her second shot yesterday and i
| will get it soon) we were careful...
| wombat-man wrote:
| Ah, wow, glad you were able to finally get it
| MarkusWandel wrote:
| If you think it's weird to linger over food, take a meal as
| an event, rather than just a quick supercharger pit stop for
| the body - did you encounter the kind of restaurant where
| you're expected to sit at a table with random strangers?
| Party of three, there's room for three more, what's the
| problem? I've been to one where the side dishes were simply
| put in bowls on the center of the table and you helped
| yourself as needed.
|
| I'd lived in North America for a long time by then (left
| Germany when I was 13) and initially this seemed a bit
| strange, but you get used to it. Eating as a social occasion
| where you might even meet interesting people.
|
| All before COVID of course.
| bigiain wrote:
| I totally agree with you and your friends, but we're losing
| this fight. Which I find sad...
| RalfWausE wrote:
| The good thing is: Even IF this trend carries on, there will
| always be the niche of the restaurants / cafes with big "no
| mobile phones allowed" stickers on the door (i know at least
| a couple of these even now...).
| [deleted]
| pjmlp wrote:
| I can tell you there are plenty of those in NRW now, but they
| usually bring a paper version if you ask them.
| umanwizard wrote:
| I had never seen it in the US either before the pandemic.
| foxpurple wrote:
| It's either because of Covid to reduce handling of shared menus
| or it's because the place has a full ordering system and is
| streamlined to be as efficient and with minimal staff
| interaction as possible.
| devney wrote:
| We could talk about why all day long but I want to make this fact
| super clear to any restaurant workers/owners: If you ask me to
| get my fone out of my pocket then I leave and give my business to
| your competition. Literally all it takes is a menu printout taped
| to a wall and you can keep my business. Make it happen.
| dkdbejwi383 wrote:
| I really despise when the QR code just sends you to the App Store
| to download some (crappy, probably web-to-native) app, where you
| have to create an account, verify your email, then add credit
| card details manually. Extra points off if there's no wifi and
| the venue is somewhere with poor signal, so it takes 10 minutes
| and rinses my battery.
|
| A web-based menu that just opens the browser and lets me pay with
| Apple Pay is acceptable given the current circumstances.
|
| I dislike having several single-use apps for random pubs and
| restaurants cluttering my phone.
| abraxas wrote:
| So don't patronize such places! If people don't refuse it this
| bullshit will spread.
| dkdbejwi383 wrote:
| I agree with the sentiment, but unfortunately you only find
| out how the menu/ordering system works once you've already
| sat down, and given everything here in the UK needs to be
| booked ahead of time, it's not as simple as just going
| somewhere else down the road.
| CubsFan1060 wrote:
| I'm slightly surprised that App Clips, Instant Apps, and NFC
| haven't taken off more in this space.
| deergomoo wrote:
| I would guess because they're significantly more work. There's
| a good chance the restaurant already had an online menu pre-
| pandemic; printing off a few QR codes that point to that URL is
| five minutes work vs. hiring a developer for who knows how
| long.
| klhutchins wrote:
| QR codes are no good if cell service is spotty with certain
| carriers. Recently at a distant restaurant, I scanned the QR,
| waited for it to time out, discover there was no cell service,
| find the free wifi, enable my VPN, connect to the restaurants
| wifi, wait for authentication, then open camera app and scan QR
| again, wait for the kindle app to open the PDF, only to be handed
| a paper menu a few seconds later...
|
| I know how a menu works. I read the food, see the price, and
| order. Personally I want to relax at a restaurant and not
| troubleshoot for myself and others, all while increasing my
| stress levels.
|
| One way to fix this might be to encode the full text of the menu
| within the QR code, instead of a link?
|
| QR codes are handy for easing people into eating out again... but
| wow; it can be pretty frustrating. Something I find myself
| thinking about more, is how Technology really needs to be more
| reliable, and how we really need to consider all the edge cases,
| before we can begin to replace the simple items such as a menu,
| let along more complex systems....Rant: I want something that
| will work 100% of the time.
| mjevans wrote:
| The data limits for a QR code are rather small. Note the
| storage is also used by ECC payload, which generally isn't
| optional. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/QR_code#Storage
|
| The menu is probably going to insist on using lower case
| letters, and the "Binary/byte" encoding will be interpreted as
| something between 7-bit ASCII and UTF-8 depending on the
| client. With the ECC payload 2,953 bytes sounds like quite a
| lot, THEN you look at the giant art linked in the article for
| even small examples. The size (version) 40 takes 177x177 width
| of decodable, clearly visible pixels.
|
| At that point the QR code is in the ballpark of a printed
| 8.5x11 or A4 sheet of paper, and is far less useful to humans
| than a laser printed page with multiple sizes of lettering,
| super high contrast, and no requirement for a computer to
| decode.
| klhutchins wrote:
| Haha, yeah... I'm not sure how important it is to have ECC to
| menu text.. good info.
| ryandrake wrote:
| They are also no good if you don't bring your phone with you. I
| generally leave my phone at home unless I expect to have to
| make a call or something. If the restaurant doesn't have a
| paper copy somewhere, I'll just leave and go find another
| restaurant. There are tons of restaurants, and I'm happy to
| vote with my wallet on this one.
| peterwandering wrote:
| This exactly :)
| Charon77 wrote:
| Why not just setup wifi hotspot, make the captive page the
| menu.
| bspammer wrote:
| Usually the restaurant hasn't made their own site but is
| paying some menus-as-a-service company to handle it for them.
|
| E.g. https://www.meandu.com.au/
| driverdan wrote:
| Why not hand out regular menus instead of using unnecessary
| technology?
| Spivak wrote:
| Because the digital menu is cheaper. A lot cheaper. You
| don't have to reprint when you alter it, you can
| automatically move people to the right menu based on the
| date/time.
| minitoar wrote:
| IMO the way this implemented at Alpine Inn in Portola Valley
| using www.toasttab.com is amazing. Being able to sit down and
| just immediately fire off some drink orders and so on and then
| close out your tab without having to wait for staff to come
| around is fantastic.
| smcameron wrote:
| Spray paint over the QR codes.
| [deleted]
| kebman wrote:
| IMHO it should be like this: Read QR code next to dish. It
| executes order for dish, and subtracts set amount of Bitcoin
| (perhaps with a confirmation so you're not scammed).
| Black101 wrote:
| It also automatically files your income tax... (what a stupid
| law the US Gov. made when they decided to not consider crypto
| as currencies)
| enobrev wrote:
| I've been loading the menus on my phone before I get to the
| restaurant. Works great. Never have to concern myself with a
| signal or wifi or anything. And sometimes I even know what I want
| before I show up.
|
| Also, because of the QR code trend, more restaurants now have
| updated menus on their websites.
|
| When I invite friends to dinner, I text them all links to the
| menu so they don't have to deal with the on-site awkwardness.
|
| I have nothing against printed menus, but I think there's some
| real potential with dynamic menus that are immediately accessible
| to everyone even before they arrive.
|
| Multiple language support, immediately-adjustable specials menu,
| filtering for food preference and allergy requirements, maybe
| even an ordering history allowing you to re-order, or explicitly
| not order the same thing twice, even ordering (or server
| hailing).
|
| It's clear the UX isn't there yet, but it was all thrown together
| by non-technical small-business owners on short notice, who have
| been trying to make things work at a very strange time. I'm
| actually kind of impressed at how well it's generally worked in
| my experience. I'm looking forward to seeing what comes of it.
| kerng wrote:
| I think online menus are much better and environmentally friendly
| than physical ones.
|
| Really hope many places just stick with online menu - also allows
| for quick updates and changes.
|
| If navigating there is done via QR code, NFC or some other means
| is a different question. but QR codes seem to work really well
| for this sort of thing and even non tech users can easily figure
| it out.
| redisman wrote:
| I don't even know if serving the menu from a data center on the
| other side of the country is more environmentally friendly.
| Besides talk about "high hanging fruit " if what, a 100 pieces
| of recyclable paper per restaurant are the environmental issue
| we should be tackling.
| pyrale wrote:
| > but QR codes seem to work really well for this sort of thing
| and even non tech users can easily figure it out.
|
| Good luck explaining that to my grandmother who doesn't own a
| smartphone.
| cultofmetatron wrote:
| Interesting as my startup is going in the opposite direction.
| WE've embraced QR codes and trying to make the experience of
| ordering from a menu even better.
|
| Unlike these guys, we're working on software that makes the
| waiter more efficient. You download the phone app and scan the
| code that the waiter gives you. From there, you have shared list
| between you and all your friends at the table from which you can
| send orders directly to the waiter from the app. The customers
| can hail the waiter and we plan to add direct messaging as well
| in the future.
|
| We've noticed that while some people enthusiastically love the
| system, its a 50/50 split between those who prefer paying from in
| our app and those that pay the waiter directly the old fashioned
| way.
|
| We're currently in a few select high profile restaurants in
| London and hoping to expand soon.
| squeaky-clean wrote:
| Wait, you're saying I have to install your app on my phone if I
| want to view the menu? I find the QR menus annoying, but not a
| huge deal. But requesting I install an app would get me to ask
| my group if we could dine somewhere else.
| cultofmetatron wrote:
| Totally understand the reservation about using the app. In
| our case, we're hoping the convenience of being able to call
| the waiter or order directly from the app at your favorite
| restaurant will earn its place in your phone.
|
| The way we set it up, use of the app is entirely optional.
| The waiter can still take your orders the old fashioned way.
| wether they have regular menus as well is up to the
| restaurant as is the option of everyone paying separately
| through the app. Our waiter app allows the waiter to take
| care of everything on his end for those that are opposed
| enough to downloading another app.
| infecto wrote:
| It's really interesting to see how a crowd of tech workers who
| generally are trying to pave the way are so quick to attack and
| be negative.
|
| Like all things in life, when its implemented well it works and
| when it does not it is terrible. I still think there is room for
| this to be the future though. I say this as a westerner but
| perhaps the west is not ready for it yet but I really enjoyed the
| experience of using QR codes in China. Go to a restaurant I just
| get shown where to sit and don't need to waste time with the
| host/server giving me menus or telling me anything. If I have
| questions they are there to answer the but I can also just sit
| down, scan the QR code, menu opens up and I can order food. Food
| just shows up minutes later. When I am done I go to the front and
| pay with Alipay.
|
| The benefits to me of not having physical menus is huge. From the
| business perspective there is less interaction time necessary to
| serve a diner. Sure if this is an upscale high touch experience
| physical menu is where it stays BUT the majority of dining
| experiences are not like this. The menu is up to date and easy to
| modify. Possible to include multiple pictures and information
| about the food.
|
| I might be wild but I really like the experience and wish more
| places would adopt it. Like all things I think here in the west
| its still too new so we have a mixed bag of good and bad
| implementations. Give it a few years and I think it will be
| narrowed down to the POS providers who offer it as a feature.
| ar_lan wrote:
| > I say this as a westerner but perhaps the west is not ready
| for it yet
|
| This seems like an odd take. I'd be interested in tangible
| data, but I'd be inclined to believe that most tech-affluent
| people are probably OK with QR codes being the norm, in
| general. It saves money, paper, and isn't really a hard step
| for anyone with a phone. In general the west is pretty pro-
| tech.
| djrogers wrote:
| > I'd be inclined to believe that most tech-affluent people
| are probably OK with QR codes being the norm, in general
|
| Everyone I know, "tech-affluent" and tech-savvy alike, hate
| them. Next time you go out for a meal with a large group, ask
| for physical menus and gauge the reaction of those around you
| - likely that most of them will ask for one too.
| melomal wrote:
| It's odd because it almost seems like a middle ground of having
| both options is unacceptable. It's chalk and cheese, black or
| white.
|
| You can literally have both physical and digital menu's and
| cater to everyone's needs. No harm done.
|
| People who loathe the idea can carry on, people that love the
| idea can carry on.
| Kaze404 wrote:
| Having both could cause issues, as the digital menu is much
| easier to update than the physical one, which can lead to
| inconsistencies. Not that it means it shouldn't be an option,
| it's just something that needs to be considered
| dmurray wrote:
| Inconsistency between the digital and physical menu isn't
| really the problem. We care more about consistency between
| either menu and the single source of truth, which is what
| the chef is able to prepare today.
| Kaze404 wrote:
| Depends on what the inconsistency is. You order something
| from the menu and later find out it's more expensive and
| the updated price is only shown in the digital menu.
| Depending on where you are that'd be an instant win in
| court I believe.
| melomal wrote:
| This is very true.
|
| I wonder how often restaurants change their menus. I live
| on the coast of Poland and 5 years later of living here, I
| can probably tell you what the menu is for the 5 'hot'
| locations to go to because it literally hasn't changed.
| fragmede wrote:
| Depends on the restaurant. Cooks are human too, so some
| will get bored after making the same exact thing for a
| year. Others might never get bored after a decade, or
| decide to keep making a dish because it sells well.
| matz1 wrote:
| Then you might wonder whether the restaurant can't change
| their menus often because paper menu is hard to change!
| FalconSensei wrote:
| I would think a paper menu will be easier to change?
| jasonlotito wrote:
| That's what I'm seeing at restaurants around here, both
| options. Default to digital, with the offer of a physical
| menu if you need. It's nice. Is that not common?
| melomal wrote:
| Going from the mass hate for QR code menus you would think
| not? Honestly, what's up with these polar opposites on HN.
| Never a middle ground.
| weaksauce wrote:
| > Like all things in life, when its implemented well it works
| and when it does not it is terrible.
|
| for a good example of this look at the iPhone's predecessors
| and the iPad's predecessors... before those the PDAs were
| basically awful and internet phones were junk. the iPad
| basically created a wide-spread tablet market.
| alisonatwork wrote:
| This process was one of my most hated "innovations" in food
| ordering in China. It turns every restaurant into a production
| line fast food operation, exactly like American chain
| restaurants. At that point, why even bother going to a
| restaurant at all? Might as well just order a Sysco-equivalent
| microwave meal at the supermarket or 7/11, because the flavor
| and the service will be exactly the same.
|
| For me the best restaurants in China were the mom and pop
| joints where the person who takes your order is also the person
| who cooks your meal, or at least where you can see into the
| kitchen from the dining room so you can call out a request or
| ask a question as they're preparing it. This way it's much
| easier to figure out what's in the dish, see if the food is
| fresh, ask for it a bit more spicy, add another side, whatever.
| It makes the meal into a more of a social experience, and
| something that feels homey and satisfying rather than mass-
| produced.
|
| Ironically going to these sorts of Chinese chain restaurants
| with the QR code menu, they also tended to be twice the price
| of the mom and pop joints, so whatever money they might be
| saving by eliminating a server is definitely not passed down to
| the consumer.
| p_j_w wrote:
| >This process was one of my most hated "innovations" in food
| ordering in China. It turns every restaurant into a
| production line fast food operation, exactly like American
| chain restaurants. At that point, why even bother going to a
| restaurant at all? Might as well just order a Sysco-
| equivalent microwave meal at the supermarket or 7/11, because
| the flavor and the service will be exactly the same.
|
| I usually can't stand comments that are just "correlation
| does not imply causation," but are you sure you aren't mixing
| up the two here? It's not hard to imagine why a McDonalds
| wouldn't be one of the first to pick this kind of technology
| up, but I have a hard time that a previously good restaurant
| that adopts this will suddenly have their quality fall down
| the shitter. Nothing really changes for the wait staff except
| now the order shows up on a screen instead of a handwritten
| form.
|
| >For me the best restaurants in China were the mom and pop
| joints where the person who takes your order is also the
| person who cooks your meal, or at least where you can see
| into the kitchen from the dining room
|
| There's a similar sort of thing in Japan, but with older
| technology. You place your order with an automated kiosk out
| in front of the restaurant and pay the machine. It spits out
| a ticket that you hand to whoever and eventually your food
| comes to you. It exists at large chains as well as some mom
| and pop places, including some where you're sat eating your
| food a few feet from the cook/chef. The places I went to that
| had these didn't seem to suffer from lower quality than their
| counterparts without such a system that didn't have it, nor
| did they feel more "mass-produced."
| alisonatwork wrote:
| My comment wasn't very clear. What I was getting at - and
| perhaps this is a China-specific issue - is that the QR
| code style restaurants are imo a symptom of gentrification
| and are contributing to the "blandification" of local
| cuisines.
|
| In China restaurants can go under very quickly - you might
| see at a certain location two or three different
| restaurants in a year. The mom and pop operations tend to
| be eaten up by the national chain restaurants and "hip"
| (i.e. QR code ordering) franchises, and when one of these
| restaurants moves in then not only does the food quality go
| down, but the prices go up too. I think a lot of young
| Chinese techies like the change because it seems more clean
| or more hygienic or more futuristic, but if you just want
| to sit down and get some local food made by a local person,
| that experience is harder and harder to find.
| godelski wrote:
| > I usually can't stand comments that are just "correlation
| does not imply causation," but are you sure you aren't
| mixing up the two here?
|
| FWIW I didn't read the gp's comment as implying causation.
| I read it purely as correlation. That restaurants that use
| these systems are much more likely to use other cost saving
| "short cuts" as well. Just because someone notes a
| correlation does not mean they imply a causal relationship
| between the two. Correlation, even without causation, can
| still be highly useful. Lack of causation does not equate
| to spurious correlations[0]. You'll note that on this
| website that the problem isn't that one doesn't cause the
| other, but rather that there's no reason to suspect these
| factors are correlated in the first place, and that
| correlation does not imply connection.
|
| [0] https://www.tylervigen.com/spurious-correlations
| datavirtue wrote:
| Yeah, QR code menus are superior, until you have to use them.
| They never have instructions and every device does it
| differently and not in obvious ways. The only instructions
| you get from a stressed out server is "just scan it." Ok,
| how?
|
| This is a great way of making tech look stupid to luddites
| and it reminds me of modern UX trends that expect people to
| just know how to do some mysterious thing--and developers
| rely on most users assuming they are the stupid ones because
| they don't know how to use an app's hidden functionality.
| Not. Accessible.
|
| Every restaurant used to have the same UX, now they are all
| different. Stupid.
| jscheel wrote:
| It's also super fun to download a 45mb menu on your
| cellular data plan every time you want to look at the menu.
| ff317 wrote:
| Exciting positive answers to this problem would be:
|
| 1) All such restaurants offering free open wifi + 2) A
| commercialized system that hosts the menu PDFs on tiny
| https servers on the restaurant's wifi router and serves
| them locally (potentially avoiding issues with far-away
| outages and also saving on the internet bandwidth for the
| common case).
| twerkmonsta wrote:
| Now I have to connect to their wifi before I can see the
| menu? And the restaurant is expected to maintain a menu
| server? What is MORE practical about this?
| idiotsecant wrote:
| No, you can use your cellular connection all you want.
| It'll just eat your data. If you want to trade a little
| effort for a little data saving, that option is open to
| you.
| cgriswald wrote:
| That depends on whether the @ff317's solution (2) also
| includes availability over the internet.
| cgriswald wrote:
| They can change prices and/or update the menu at any time
| and they avoid printing, storing, handing out,
| collecting, and cleaning the physical menus.
|
| An appliance menu server would cost practically nothing
| if they're already offering Wi-Fi or use electronic
| POS/ordering systems.
| sanderjd wrote:
| I don't understand the "now they're all different" facet of
| this. In my experience during the pandemic, they are all
| the same, just in a way that is not discoverable, as you
| point out. But after the first time I realized I just
| needed to open my camera app to make it work, it became a
| really nice experience. There is a balance here -
| discoverability is good until it becomes clutter because
| nobody needs to discover it anymore because it is
| commonplace, and symmetrically a mechanism that is quick
| and easy but lacks discoverability is bad until it becomes
| commonplace and second nature. A great example of this is
| the mechanisms to open camera apps on phones (which this QR
| menu thing builds on!): there is no way to discover that I
| need to press my power button twice to open my camera, but
| once I know this and it is second nature, there is
| absolutely no better way to accomplish that task.
| JKCalhoun wrote:
| Interesting, so the presence of a QR menu is a restaurant-
| quality filter perhaps.
|
| If they have a QR menu move on until you find one that does
| not ... you are likely getting a more authentic meal.
| _Nat_ wrote:
| Most ordering-apps I've tried allow customers to customize
| items and make special-requests. It's often easier to do
| these things on an app, and these modifications are
| automatically reflected on the receipt.
|
| I guess an app _could_ give people access to a webcam to
| engage in discussion with a cook as they prepare the food,
| for people who really want to watch the process and talk to
| the cook.. is that a feature you 'd be interested in?
|
| I mean, obviously, that wouldn't be right for a lot of places
| -- many eateries don't want people bothering the kitchen
| staff -- but if you've been going to places where people can
| interact with the kitchen-staff as they work, and if that's
| something the customers value, it'd seem like that process
| could be made more available.
|
| Edit: Actually, when you were talking about engaging kitchen-
| staff, were you thinking of places like Subway? Or did you
| mean actually talking to people in a separate-kitchen, like
| you walk back there and chat with them while they make the
| food?
| alisonatwork wrote:
| I think my comment is a bit centered around the Chinese
| experience.
|
| A lot of smaller Chinese restaurants are just one guy at a
| wok standing near the entrance and a bunch of stools inside
| (sometimes also outside). They're commonly a husband and
| wife team, where the husband cooks and the wife acts as a
| runner or takes orders when it's too busy to bark what you
| want at the cook, but sometimes it's just the one person.
| If you get there early, sometimes the wife is preparing
| mise en place at one of the tables, or on a stool out
| front.
|
| Another common layout for larger restaurants is tables and
| stools on the inside plus a small counter to pay, but
| there's a window at the back going into the kitchen where
| they might have a couple of cooks and more space to prep.
|
| In both of these cases it's not unusual for customers to
| know the owners and engage in some smalltalk, whether about
| the food, or whatever other thing. It's a lot like a
| classic diner in the US, or a UK "caff".
|
| These QR code ordering systems tend to be in place at a
| different type of restaurant. They are more like strip mall
| chain restaurants with optimized seating and standardized
| menus and nobody knows anyone or cares. Personally I don't
| see the point of these sorts of places, because if you're
| just getting Sysco-style meals without any service then you
| could cut out the middle man and buy the meal without going
| to a restaurant.
| shitgoose wrote:
| I really enjoy reading your comments :) Thanks! And I
| fully agree with you about how the restaurant restaurant
| should be.
| idiotsecant wrote:
| If QR-code based ordering doesn't decrease the quality of
| the food (I think everyone agrees it doesn't) why should
| others have to subsidize your 'personal touch' experience
| paying higher prices for increased wait staff attention
| when they may be OK with (and prefer!) impersonal
| service, which has a built-in lower cost of delivery?
|
| It seems to me your focus is less on the quality of the
| food (provided it means quality standards) and more about
| the ambiance and experience of another human catering to
| your customized requirements. In any other domain this
| would be a luxury you'd be expected to pay more for.
|
| I say bring on the impersonally delivered, high quality,
| cheap food!
| alisonatwork wrote:
| As I mentioned in my earlier post, this is literally the
| opposite of my experience. The restaurants where I was
| made to order by QR code always cost more than the
| restaurants where I was not. In China, I suspect this is
| because QR code places tend to be national chains which
| have some kind of brand name recognition, so people pay
| more to prove their status.
|
| On top of the increased cost, the food tends to be lower
| quality, not higher quality, presumably because the
| ingredients are mass produced and reheated by cooks who
| don't have any personal reputation at stake if they
| prepare something poorly. This is exactly what chain
| restaurants in the west are like, and they tend to be a
| much worse dining experience than either mom and pop or
| boutique outfits.
| andrewzah wrote:
| I believe they're referring to places small enough and
| slightly open so that you can see the few kitchen workers.
|
| I ran into a few of those mom and pop joints in Korea as
| well. Basically every gimbab (kimbap) shop is kinda like
| subway where you can see them prepare the food.
|
| I believe they were talking about how interacting with an
| actual human is part of the experience of going out for
| them. And just going to a restaurant in order to fiddle
| with a menu screen and order kind of defeats the purpose
| since you could just do that with takeout? It doesn't
| bother me either way, but I prefer restaurants that have a
| button on the table to call the server.
| mcguire wrote:
| " _I guess an app could give people access to a webcam to
| engage in discussion with a cook as they prepare the
| food..._ "
|
| _headdesk_
| cddotdotslash wrote:
| How does ordering via QR code change the quality of the food
| itself? Just because you clicked a button to order the food
| instead of telling a server what you want who then wrote it
| in a notebook and went back to a terminal to enter it, should
| not have any bearing on how the food tastes.
| alisonatwork wrote:
| The QR code doesn't change the quality of the food. It's
| just a correlation that the restaurants that moved to a QR
| code ordering system tended to also be the ones that hired
| kids who didn't much care about cooking, and who just
| produced the same bland dish every time, regardless of who
| was ordering.
|
| I do my best to eat plant-based most of the time, so I
| always appreciate when I can have a chat to the cook or
| server to see what is in the dish and if they can avoid
| garnishing with ground pork or whatever. To me that's the
| whole point of going to a restaurant, to have someone cook
| for you personally. If you're just going to get a
| production line meal, then you might as well order from a
| vending machine or get a meal to go from a convenience
| store. No judgment on those meals, they are fine too, but
| when I go to a restaurant I expect a bit more of a
| personalized service.
| bko wrote:
| > also be the ones that hired kids who didn't much care
| about cooking, and who just produced the same bland dish
| every time, regardless of who was ordering
|
| I personally go to restaurants for consistency. Do you
| really think waiters taking orders pass along information
| about who ordered the order and their preferences? You
| can give instructions to the waiter but from my
| experience it's not carried a large chunk of the time.
| Every layer is a place for miscommunication, so going
| consumer -> app -> cook is a lot less likely to be messed
| up than consumer -> waiter -> notebook? -> terminal ->
| cook. There's generally a high turnover for waiters and I
| don't think they're all super informed about the meals,
| but I guess it depends what restaurant you go to. But
| with online ordering a restaurant that can't afford to
| have a highly trained wait staff can still deliver high
| quality information to customers
|
| You can provide a lot more information on an app about a
| dish, including pictures, ingredients and customization
| options than a person.
| alisonatwork wrote:
| I think there is a misunderstanding in this thread about
| what types of restaurants provide these QR code ordering
| systems in China.
|
| From my perspective, if I need to use an app to select my
| dish, applying only the pre-approved customizations, then
| the experience is no different from ordering delivery. If
| you live in the US, then perhaps this experience is not
| unusual, since it's a lot like the experience of visiting
| a chain restaurant - same menu in every location, same
| customizations available, same "perky" waitstaff, same
| supplier of ingredients behind the scenes - it's
| basically just a more expensive version of fast food.
| Adding a QR code ordering system to this kind of
| restaurant is not changing much about the experience
| other than the speed of ordering.
|
| But in other countries - notably China - there is a whole
| nother class of restaurants that is both cheaper and more
| personalized than a chain. And these family-owned
| restaurants are the ones that are being edged out by more
| expensive, less culinarily interesting restaurants whose
| primary appeal appears to be gimmicky apps that provide
| either the same or less functionality than a food
| delivery app does.
|
| It might be that these chain restaurants are successful
| because a lot of people prioritize consistency over
| everything else. But I feel like in China in particular
| it is more trend- and status-based. People think it's
| cool to order on their phones instead of talking to the
| server, or they think it's classy to eat what the folks
| in Shanghai are eating instead of the local food from
| their region.
|
| Personally, I would prefer to see more local restaurants
| and less chains, not just in China but everywhere in the
| world. I understand that's an orthogonal issue to QR code
| ordering, just in China it does appear to be correlated.
| asdff wrote:
| What changes is you no longer have a customer service rep
| on the line, which is what you de facto have with a server
| at your table. I could ask them questions about all sorts
| of specific ingredients on the menu so I end up guessing
| nothing about what I am ordering. For online menus,
| sometimes you take a shot into the dark because you can't
| get any description on the item besides "89. - Orange
| chicken" or however it comes up on the online menu. Does it
| come with rice? How big is the portion? Who knows.
| gjs278 wrote:
| who fucking cares? pay the $3 extra dollars and order the
| rice. if you get extra throw it away. ive never had a
| waiter answer a question that could have just been
| printed on the menu in the first place or solved by
| merely taking a picture of the food.
| canadianfella wrote:
| How does a physical menu improve the taste?
| RHSeeger wrote:
| > The benefits to me of not having physical menus is huge
|
| But the negatives are also huge.
|
| - My phone is slow, so it's painful to navigate the menu
|
| - Half the restaurants have horrible UI for their menu
|
| - You can't casually peruse the menu, you have to go item by
| item down the list.
|
| At least to me, it's an awful experience.
| andrepd wrote:
| > The benefits to me of not having physical menus is huge.
|
| "Huge" might be a bit of an overstatement relating to such a
| minor convenience.
| infecto wrote:
| So you are speaking for my opinions and feelings now? Y'all
| are crazy.
| pessimizer wrote:
| I guess passing accusations of hyperbole are violence now.
| dimmke wrote:
| I give it about 3 months before these QR code menus start
| asking for your email "for deals" before they'll display the
| menu. And I'm sure some great new YC backed startup will be
| created to collect all the data and aggregate it with other
| data broker information.
| JKCalhoun wrote:
| > Like all things in life, when its implemented well it works
|
| As does a physical menu.
|
| I don't want to take my phone out when dining.
| rytcio wrote:
| The current state of tech is pretty horrible. The web is a
| terrible platform for how it is being used today. There is
| little to no innovation happening anymore, and everything
| driven purely by advertisements and user-hostile practices to
| increase revenue over usability. It's very difficult to not be
| pessimistic about tech.
| samstave wrote:
| A little while ago, I was making labels for cannabis products.
| All cannabis products need to be tested by a lab to show their
| constituent properties (pesticides, THC, CDB, etc)
|
| One of the things I did was create a QR code on the labels such
| that they pointed to a bitly address which then redirected to
| the PDF of the lab results for each product.
|
| This allowed for the consumer to actually read the Lab results,
| and it provided an litmus to the interest in each product by
| count of scans.
|
| I loved it, it worked really well - but the company wasnt too
| fond of showing the direct lab results for the reason that the
| PDFs had the manufacturing facilities address on the PDF...
|
| Could have done it better, but the overall idea was sound and
| was very easy to implement. An admin assistant could build this
| out.
|
| Thought of also tying it to slack or something such that we
| could just have a product interest channel and get an alert any
| time the products were scanned into that channel...
|
| There were actually a number of creative things that could be
| done using QR codes.
|
| This is great for very small packaged goods, such as pre-rolls,
| wax, diamonds, etc - where you have very little space on the
| package, and are already regulated on exactly what information
| you must include on the packaging, so if you wanted to provide
| more detailed product info, this would work well..
| infecto wrote:
| I love this. It reminds me of transparency from amazon.
| Products have a QR code on the outside of the packaging to
| have some minimal effort prevention on counterfeits. Includes
| some metadata like manufacturing date and location.
|
| https://brandservices.amazon.com/transparency
| samstave wrote:
| Huh, yeah the basic intent is the same as with Transparency
| (hadn't heard about that service until today) -- but its
| super simple to build out, and any company can easily do
| it...
|
| There is a bad-ass product from Seagull Scientific, called
| "barTender" (as in Barcode Tender) -- which is free to use,
| and does any and all barcodes/QR codes - and label document
| design.
|
| The only cost is a $500/$600 license for actually
| connecting it to a printer - but it makes it a breeze to
| create awesome labels, and print them out en-mass (like
| many thousands on the high speed printers)...
|
| You can hook it up to a DB or a spreadsheet for pulling all
| your product labeling info easily to fields so they auto
| fill for the products you are printing.
|
| Also, with using bitly - you also get a map of the geoip
| location of each scan - so you can see where interest is
| high geographically...
| RGamma wrote:
| You're saying it's okay to require the entire stack of
| technology of 50+ years of CS and hw/sw engineering to be able
| to order something at a restaurant at negligible benefit is
| something desirable?
|
| Requiring an inordinate amount of technological
| sophistication/complexity for simple things is how to build
| vulnerable systems.
| thomascgalvin wrote:
| My big issue, which _should_ be easily correctable, is that
| every menu QR code I 've scanned results in a PDF that I have
| to download.
|
| _Nobody_ wants PDFs. On desktop sites, it 's common to add a
| (PDF Warning) to links that lead to PDFs.
|
| And on a phone, PDFs are even worse. They're almost always
| sized for the desktop, which means you have to pinch and scroll
| to see anything, and I don't download stuff from Firefox often
| enough to know how to find and delete the menus for every
| single restaurant I eat at.
|
| If the menu QR code led to a responsive website, I'd be fine
| with it. When the QR code leads to a PDF, it makes me angry. If
| the QR code led to an app I had to install, I'd walk directly
| out of the restaurant.
| [deleted]
| benhurmarcel wrote:
| Which mobile browser downloads PDFs instead of just rendering
| them?
| cogman10 wrote:
| Not really the issue with PDFs. Even if they are directly
| rendered the problem is they have a non-responsive
| rendering which forces pinch zoom and scrolling to see/read
| things.
| only_as_i_fall wrote:
| Maybe there's some setting I'm missing, but the default
| android experience seems to be Chrome downloads a pdf which
| then is read by Google drive.
| datameta wrote:
| DDG is one example. I prefer it this way because I can
| choose how to view it, and not have to redownload it in
| case I lose the page or the cache for the file.
| WhyCause wrote:
| All of them. The data still needs to be downloaded to be
| rendered.
| clon wrote:
| Firefox Mobile
| buu700 wrote:
| This was exactly my experience as well when I recently went
| to some restaurants for the first time since pre-pandemic.
|
| GP's experience sounds great; an interactive
| mobile/responsive website that I can directly order from
| would be more convenient than the traditional experience.
| PDFs are basically fine, but given the option I'd rather have
| a physical menu.
|
| (Thankfully, I haven't yet heard of or encountered a QR code
| that redirected me to an app; that would be a pretty quick
| way to make me leave if no alternative were provided.)
| colinmhayes wrote:
| I love scanning a QR code and having a pdf open in my
| browser. Faster than waiting for wait staff and easier for
| restaurants to change the menu. I think most people disagree
| that nobody wants PDFs.
| idiotsecant wrote:
| PDFs are better than a paper menu, for sure, but wouldn't
| you prefer a website that scales properly and allows you to
| place orders? I think that is the point parent post is
| making.
| nyghtly wrote:
| I think this is more than just a difference in technology. The
| entire culture of restaurant dining is different in China. The
| greatest example of this is the fact that servers in China will
| always wait to approach the table until they are called over.
| This is quite different from the American approach in which the
| servers always come to us without being asked.
| allenu wrote:
| I suppose for me, going to a restaurant is not a matter of
| "efficiency". I go there to socialize with friends, to enjoy
| the atmosphere, to interact with people. If service is slow,
| then, yes, I get annoyed. However, I don't think I ever go into
| a restaurant thinking, "I wish they would make restaurant
| ordering more efficient." If I want that, I go to a fast food
| place or place that does takeout.
| asah wrote:
| Already in the US, I'm seeing some restaurants where you pay
| right at the table as well.
|
| In NYC, you can see this at World's Wurst [1] in SoHo.
|
| [1]
| https://www.google.com/maps/place/World's+Wurst/@40.7279645,...
| kerkeslager wrote:
| > It's really interesting to see how a crowd of tech workers
| who generally are trying to pave the way are so quick to attack
| and be negative.
|
| It's really interesting to see how a different crowd to tech
| workers who are constantly in contact with the myriad of ways
| in which technology can be harmful to human interaction and
| happiness can be so quick to downplay any legitimate
| criticisms.
|
| > Go to a restaurant I just get shown where to sit and don't
| need to waste time with the host/server giving me menus or
| telling me anything.
|
| ...in which you view a human being as a hurdle to be surpassed
| rather than a human being.
|
| Conversations with waitstaff are often some of the most
| rewarding parts of a restaurant experience. Even just focusing
| on the food, the best way to find out about dishes you haven't
| tried is by talking to waitstaff. And I've formed great
| friendships with waitstaff at places I go regularly.
| infecto wrote:
| For sure, I guess for me there is a time and place. Sometimes
| I am eating because I am hungry and sometimes I eat for the
| experience. For the former I like the idea of using a QR
| code. I never had troubles in China talking about the food
| when I used a QR code. I don't have romantic ideas about it
| though, I still was able to interact with the owners or wait
| stuff just as easily. Reminded me of the use of vending
| machine tickets in Japanese mom and pop restaurants.
| shkkmo wrote:
| I see any system that requires people to have and use a
| smart phone to be negative for inclusivity and
| accessibility. Use this technology for progessive
| enhancement, not as a replacement.
| cogman10 wrote:
| Yeah, I could see something like an open restaurant where
| you come in, scan the QR code, place the order, and
| get/pay for your food all without really interacting with
| someone. That'd be great, but I'd want a "push for
| server" button on every table for people without smart
| phones or people that don't know how to interact with QR
| codes.
|
| It certainly could be made super slick (embedding the
| table number, for example, in each QR code).
|
| But with all that, it'd cost money. So pretty much the
| only places you'll see do this well are big chains which
| tend to have crappy food.
| kerkeslager wrote:
| > Yeah, I could see something like an open restaurant
| where you come in, scan the QR code, place the order, and
| get/pay for your food all without really interacting with
| someone. That'd be great, but I'd want a "push for
| server" button on every table for people without smart
| phones or people that don't know how to interact with QR
| codes.
|
| Your belief that it's good to cut out a human interaction
| is one you should reconsider.
| cogman10 wrote:
| I'm open to reconsidering it. What's the evidence that
| human interaction with restaurant servers is good for
| either the servers or the person being served? Do people
| that pack in lunches to work experience lower health than
| those that eat out?
| unethical_ban wrote:
| I don't think it is bad as an option, but I resent it as the
| only method.
|
| * Homeless/poor may not have phones
|
| * Old people don't have smartphones or know how to use them
|
| * I don't want to have my phone with me at all times. I
| actually leave my phone in the car when dining sometimes.
|
| * Something as simple as a listing of options, which is often
| static for weeks or more at a time, now depend on a WAN
| connection! It's meatspace dependency hell.
|
| I know "menu costs" are such a thing that it is taught in
| accounting and business classes. Nevertheless, the idea of
| getting rid of a hard menu, even as a backup, is absurd,
| unnecessary, and dare I use a buzzword I hate, "privileged".
| ryantgtg wrote:
| We went to a restaurant last week for the first time in a
| year, and sat there for 10 minutes waiting for a menu. The
| person who seated us didn't tell us about the QR code. I
| discovered it after idly looking at the piece of paper on the
| table (which previously I assumed was an ad for drink
| specials).
|
| A few minutes later I witnessed an elderly couple
| experiencing the same thing. They sat for 10 minutes
| expectantly waiting for menus to be delivered.
|
| Lame experience.
| Grustaf wrote:
| That's a bit like saying "why bother serving wine from bottles
| with impractical corks, each table should just have a wine hose
| with a tap". Going to a restaurant is an experience. A waiter,
| a physical menu and lots of other inefficiencies are part of
| that experience.
| jdmichal wrote:
| > why bother serving wine from bottles with impractical
| corks, each table should just have a wine hose with a tap
|
| To be fair, you just 100% described a keg. It's just not
| common -- or is even non-existent? -- for wine to come in
| kegs.
| infecto wrote:
| Definitely not the same so please don't imply as such.
| Everyone has a different taste for their dining experiences
| definitely. For me, the normal I need something to eat
| experience does not need a waiter. But definitely if I a
| going to a nice place to sit, relax, enjoy the service, yes a
| waiter, paper menu is a nice experience. These are very
| different segments in the dining market imo. Kind of like how
| your normal restaurant is not going to use Tock for
| reservations.
| jjgreen wrote:
| "Wine hose" you say, I'm interested ...
| enriquto wrote:
| > Like all things in life, when its implemented well it works
|
| This is false. A QR-code based menu does _not_ work for people
| that do not use a smartphone.
| giancarlostoro wrote:
| I agree with the efficiency sentiment. Nothing worse than
| waiting on a waiter for what feels like hours at a restaurant
| when the chef could just be preparing my meal.
|
| I would also be okay with an NFC approach or both NFC / QR code
| approach, NFC stickers are cheap and can do similar to QR
| codes.
| SllX wrote:
| I've had experiences ordering through a QR code in San
| Francisco which were even more seamless: pre-pay for your food
| with Apple Pay right off the website, tip included. Scan again
| if you want to order something else. Everyone at the table can
| order separately.
|
| I don't hate it, but I don't love it. It was like a custom web-
| DoorDash for one table with only one restaurant option.
| Probably someone could run with that and scale it up to a food
| court without much difficulty and a willing mall partner.
| Efficient, but if I gave a damn about the economics I would
| cook at home and this definitely removes some of the
| hospitality of the hospitality business.
| sdevonoes wrote:
| Main downside: I don't always take my phone with me. I don't
| hate QR code, but adding a "backup" menu that is accessible
| without phones is a must I believe.
| paiute wrote:
| this whole pandemic thing really worried me. I leave my phone
| at home on purpose all the time. I really struggled with
| everything from food to doctors. phones are becoming a
| requirement.
| FalconSensei wrote:
| I still have my phone with me when I leave the house, but
| because now I work from home and don't need much mobil data,
| I downgraded my data plan to 250mb per month.
|
| I can see at some point I'll try to open a menu but won't be
| successful
| xster wrote:
| On the flip side, I don't always take my wallet with me. It
| seems a lot easier to go phone only (especially in China)
| than wallet only.
| zucked wrote:
| Agreed - I actually don't mind the QR thing when done
| elegantly (it often _isn 't_ but that's not the QR's fault)
| but what about travelers without a phone plan? Or folks who
| don't want to carry a phone?
|
| If you're going to print out a half dozen menus, you're
| pretty much right back where you started.
| fouric wrote:
| > It's really interesting to see how a crowd of tech workers
| who generally are trying to pave the way are so quick to attack
| and be negative.
|
| This statement is utterly useless. It provides no value to the
| discussion, doesn't make any interesting points, and tries to
| emotionally manipulate the reader.
|
| > Like all things in life, when its implemented well it works
| and when it does not it is terrible.
|
| HN readers seem to be bearish on these technologies because
| they're _usually_ implemented poorly, and there 's very little
| reason to believe that the situation will substantially improve
| anytime soon (or at all). People generally discriminate between
| restaurants based on price and food, not menus, so there's
| little incentive for restaurants to improve electronic menus -
| similar to business websites - meaning that if QR code menus
| gain wide adoption, we're extremely likely to see significantly
| worse experiences near-universally.
| [deleted]
| dsr_ wrote:
| Even more so: "a crowd of tech workers who generally are
| trying to pave the way" are professionally engaged in using,
| critiquing and developing user interfaces. These are the
| people you hire to tell you "this wasn't a good idea, here's
| a better one".
|
| Super-thin phones.
|
| Touch-screen controls in automobiles.
|
| QR codes instead of menus.
|
| All of these things seem nifty to marketing departments, may
| be accepted by consumers, and are detrimental to actual
| usage.
| acituan wrote:
| > Even more so: "a crowd of tech workers who generally are
| trying to pave the way" are professionally engaged in
| using, critiquing and developing user interfaces.
|
| "I don't like it" is not a critique though. The people you
| would want to hire could try to answer "here is an
| imperfect solution, how would you improve it?"
| adamdusty wrote:
| The article gives reasons why it is an imperfect
| solution.
| acituan wrote:
| The point was not about the article but the "crowd of
| HN".
| acituan wrote:
| > > It's really interesting to see how a crowd of tech
| workers who generally are trying to pave the way are so quick
| to attack and be negative. > This statement is utterly
| useless. It provides no value to the discussion, doesn't make
| any interesting points, and tries to emotionally manipulate
| the reader.
|
| Funny enough this applies more to your statement than the
| statement you're responding to. They were making a meta-
| critique of the general discussion here, and I find it to be
| a legitimate perspective.
|
| Personal sentiments on liking or not liking QR codes, which
| any lay user can make, does not make as interesting a
| discussion as a principled approach to what components of the
| UX flow exactly fails, whether these failures are essential
| to QR codes or specific to the implementations today, and
| how/if they could be addressed as an engineering exercise.
|
| It is akin to saying "this first gen ICE automobiles suck,
| bring back horses" and go on to discuss the annoying doors of
| the car while the unexploited fertile land of discussions
| await on the actual engine, cost benefit analyses,
| incremental improvements, adoption barriers, UX flows etc.
| Camillo wrote:
| This setup seems beneficial to both restaurant owners and
| customers in China. The faster ordering process saves time for
| servers, which reduces labor costs, and the savings can be
| passed on to customers.
|
| But it cannot work in America because of the tipping culture.
| barry27 wrote:
| "The benefits to me of not having physical menus is huge."
|
| Come now. Let's not get carried away.
| nailer wrote:
| I had a look for startups working on this - not just QR codes and
| nice looking vertically scrolling menus (rather than paper-
| formatted PDFs) but analytics, realtime updates etc.
|
| Found these guys: https://smartermenu.co.uk/ - no affiliation. It
| just seems like what I'd build.
| kall wrote:
| I'm visually impaired and QR code menus have been a real boon to
| me. I'm gonna be using my phone camera to read the menu either
| way, It's great when I don't have to keep the autofocus steady
| and illuminate half of a dark restaurant with the LED light.
|
| Previously I would often try to find the menu on the website
| instead, but the QR codes are way more convenient. A direct link
| to the menu on the google maps listing is also pretty good.
|
| Most importantly it has normalized my previously "weird"
| behaviour socially.
| _delirium wrote:
| My biggest surprise in these comments is that people seem to have
| actually successfully used a QR code! I always assumed they were
| an iPhone only feature, so I ignore them.
|
| I've read that the Android camera app is supposed to recognize QR
| codes, but it doesn't seem to on my phone.
| IlliOnato wrote:
| On Android, you open your camera app and then tap on "Google
| Lens". This allows you to scan QR codes.
| squiggleblaz wrote:
| The text "Google Lens" may not appear even though it is
| present. My Google Lens button is a cryptic symbol. Modern
| user interface design seems to give bonus points for being
| cryptic and obscure because companies are hostile to the idea
| that they might empower the user - a sense of confusion and
| uncertainty acts as a form of lockin.
| teddyh wrote:
| A.k.a. "mystery meat navigation".
| qbasic_forever wrote:
| It varies on Android, some manufacturers ship custom camera
| apps that include automatic QR code detection and decoding.
| Many people don't even realize the Android they're using is
| really a highly-customized vendor skin and suite of apps.
| Samsung in particular does this, and its camera app auto
| recognizes QR codes.
| _delirium wrote:
| I have a Pixel bought directly from the Google Store, so I
| assumed it'd have the most recent features, whatever they
| are! The Pixel 3a, though, doesn't seem to do anything
| special with QR codes, besides photographing them.
| meheleventyone wrote:
| That's super weird because I have the original Pixel and it
| has no problem scanning QR codes from the camera app.
| That's a pretty big QoL downgrade two versions later.
| squiggleblaz wrote:
| Firefox has a QR code scanner - if you tap the URL bar, it
| has a "scan" button that lets you scan a QR code and use it
| as a URL. Perhaps Chrome does as well, i d k because I
| don't use Chrome.
|
| Till I learnt about that, I used a simple QR code scanner
| from F-Droid (since Playstore is completely untrustworthy
| for generic utilities).
| [deleted]
| dagw wrote:
| I have a Pixel 3a as well. I just point the default camera
| app at the QR codes and it pops up the relevant link every
| time.
| qiqitori wrote:
| QR codes pre-date iPhones by many years. App that I used to use
| on previous Android phones whose camera apps didn't read QR
| codes:
| https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.google.zxi...
|
| (It's open source so you can take a look at the source and then
| compile it yourself if you don't trust this page.)
| Jiro wrote:
| I believe earlier Android versions did use camera, but now you
| have to use Google lens. It's extremely well hidden.
|
| On my phone, I have to open up the Google app and click on the
| icon after the microphone on the search bar to open up Google
| Lens. Once I am in it, clicking on the three dots icon gives an
| option to add Lens to home screen.
| ubercore wrote:
| Not necessarily. On my android phone the link provided by the
| QR code shows up in the regular camera app.
| fart32 wrote:
| The camera app I have (preinstalled from Moto) can read QR
| codes. Links are OK, but it can't handle QR payments. You'd
| expect the phone to forward it to the right app, but no - you
| need to open that one yourself and use the scanner in there.
| There's probably a reason for it, maybe all the banks I use do
| something wrong and Android is capable of this, but at the end
| of the day, this doesn't matter. QR codes are more often than
| not frustrating experience for end users, especially those not
| tech-savvy enough. It's ridiculous, we can do better than this.
| 988747 wrote:
| On iPhone Firefox has QR code support - you click on the
| address bar and tiny QR icon appears on the right. Maybe
| Firefox on Android does the same?
| MayeulC wrote:
| QR codes were invented at Toyota in the 1990s IIRC. They're
| extremely well-documented and supported.
|
| I've been using that reader for about 10 years, it still works
| great despite seeing few updates:
| https://f-droid.org/packages/com.google.zxing.client.android
|
| There may be quicker, prettier or more featureful apps, but
| this one serves my needs. I use zbarcam on my PC.
| wycy wrote:
| In almost all cases you can ask for a paper menu if the QR code
| isn't working for you. I once went to a place where the QR menu
| worked for everyone but me. They gave me a paper menu and it was
| no big deal.
| willseth wrote:
| One of the nice things about being at a restaurant is that you
| get to be away from your digital bullshit and be around other
| humans who are also not focused on digital bullshit.
| kneel wrote:
| QR codes are great, please keep them.
|
| I'll order what I want at my leisure, not having to flag down a
| server is a plus. We often make up fun little games to see who
| has to order the next round.
|
| Menus can be surprisingly disgusting if the waitstaff is really
| busy, I'd rather not touch them and/or lay them on the table.
| [deleted]
| 34679 wrote:
| Sometimes I feel like I'm the only person who doesn't want 15
| different companies telling each other what I just ate for lunch.
| barbazoo wrote:
| But then who would profit from it!?
| cf499 wrote:
| Thanks for letting me know that I'm not alone! :D
|
| I handle QR codes by taking a picture and decoding on the
| command line using zbarimg. If the decoded output is a URL and
| looks safe I might visit the site. No way I'm letting an
| insecure device (basically all smartphones) follow random links
| blindly like that. And no way I'm giving up my data points for
| free if I can avoid it (remember how market researchers used to
| pay people to participate in focus group interviews?)
| imwillofficial wrote:
| "Bring back menus, QR code's are terrible."
|
| Thank God somebody had the spine to say it. QR code
| implementation is a mess. I've had a terrible time when a phone
| is out of battery, poor reception, or buggy.
|
| I hate relying on my phone for something as simple as a meal out.
| All seemed rather dystopian.
| throw7 wrote:
| There's a "restaurant" near me that has app-only ordering
| (ios/android). There is no on-site kiosk either. It's one of
| those "dark kitchen" things (I guess) with no wait-staff. I don't
| get it, but I guess I'm too old to understand.
| er4hn wrote:
| As a counterpoint, QR code menus work very well in China. I've
| been to places where you scan the code to open a menu that lets
| you place all your orders. You can also pay for your table via
| per table QR codes.
|
| As a side note, you don't customarily tip in restaurants in
| China, so a non high-end place with good food will typically have
| rushed and curt wait staff. Ordering through the phone will give
| you a better experience!
| barbazoo wrote:
| If only we could upload the food more efficiently. Then we
| wouldn't need restaurants at all.
| dabfiend19 wrote:
| every restaurant and bar I've been to in Brooklyn in the last
| week now also has the menu, ordering, and payment entirely
| through the QR codes. most using the Toast platform. I don't
| see this trend going back the other way.
| whimsicalism wrote:
| It would be lovely if we could move closer to the Chinese
| consumer model re: QR codes in general. Wechat pay/Alipay are
| incredibly convenient.
| cunthorpe wrote:
| Unlocking your phone, opening an app, possibly unlocking that
| one, tapping to scan, and then accept is NOT more convenient
| than NFC in your card. Unless your talking about costs.
|
| For private free money transfer, the US and many other places
| have similar if not better methods.
| barbazoo wrote:
| Or NFC in your phone. I can't imagine it being more
| convenient than that.
| CogitoCogito wrote:
| How is NFC on a phone more convenient than tapping a
| card?
| Jcowell wrote:
| The phone would be already out whereas the card is more
| likely in a wallet. The phone is probably faster than
| getting the card.
| CogitoCogito wrote:
| Okay so if your phone is your hand already and ready to
| be used, then it's "more convenient" (i.e. saves maybe 2
| seconds) than your card, but then in all other cases it's
| not? I usually keep my phone in my pocket so this isn't
| more convenient anyway.
|
| Personally I find any hard requirement of a phone
| extremely _inconvenient_, since it means I must have my
| phone with me. A card/cash takes up much less space than
| a phone.
| barnabee wrote:
| On the other hand, here in the UK I know several people
| who no longer carry a wallet or cards at all because
| Apple Pay is so ubiquitously available. I don't know
| anyone without a phone.
| CogitoCogito wrote:
| I do have a phone and usually have it with me, but I
| don't always have it with me. I think having more payment
| options is great. Cash, cards, phones, you name it. The
| variety of options is true convenience. But I don't see
| how someone can say a phone is more convenient than
| cash/card for payment. Sure if you already have it with
| you (an argument which is symmetric anyway), but
| cash/cards use up less space and...well make payments.
| cunthorpe wrote:
| I think the 2 are similar enough that are a bit
| subjective. For me it's easier to pull out my card holder
| and slide out my card than trying to unlock my phone
| several times in a row. It doesn't help that some places
| don't know how to use NFC so the card works 100% of the
| time for me.
|
| If I lived in a post-facemask NFC-aware country I'd
| totally use Apple Pay
| whimsicalism wrote:
| The problem is that you have to have an NFC reader that
| they bring to you or that is at every table (if you are,
| say, in a restaurant).
|
| By contrast, QR codes are cheap to manufacture, so you
| can put it on every table and anyone anywhere can pay
| without having to go to the counter or whatever.
|
| Plus, NFC doesn't work over distance. Nor is it
| bidirectional.
|
| I think there is something about QR that helps it gain
| critical mass over NFC, I have not seen anywhere
| penetrated as heavily by NFC as the QR codes are in
| China. Alipay QR codes are showing up in DC & SF too now.
|
| I'm curious if those commenting have been to China/used
| the QR code system, I was likewise very skeptical before
| visiting.
| samatman wrote:
| NFC on my watch is in fact more convenient than NFC on my
| phone.
|
| The difference is slight, but real.
| barbazoo wrote:
| Is there a good smart watch that's not an iWatch?
| jbluepolarbear wrote:
| Google dropped the ball on wearable tech. Apples slow but
| steady increase of features has made it hard for
| competitors to catch up.
| jabroni_salad wrote:
| If NFC isn't common in your area and you really want to
| do watch payments, you can do Samsung Pay on any terminal
| with a magstrip reader, which is all of them.
| foxpurple wrote:
| Not yet.
| KptMarchewa wrote:
| You have to use watch then, and having something on my
| hand is not convenient (or, maybe, pleasant) for me.
| fomine3 wrote:
| It depends. For who smartphone addict and whom cards are in
| a wallet in a bag, launching barcode payment is faster than
| taking a card. Maybe NFC on smartphone is faster.
| vmception wrote:
| my wallet is physically adhered to my phone, so consider
| slimming down as well
|
| I still like not having to wait for the wait staff and
| just paying with QR code
| cunthorpe wrote:
| Indeed on NFC on my phone would be faster if I didn't
| have to unlock it with a PIN code due to Face ID and my
| mask. I miss Touch ID-based Apple Pay.
| seanmcdirmid wrote:
| I find paying via QR code to be much less convenient than NFC
| that is more popular in the west. Tap and pay is really
| quick, especially in countries like Australia.
| Spivak wrote:
| With "App Clips" or "Instant Apps" or whatever you want to
| call them QR codes for me take the lead again. Get a
| receipt at the table, open camera, scan, app pops up with
| receipt, add tip, click click pay, done.
|
| Skipping the second waiter trip to swipe all the cards or
| the awkwardness of bringing out the PoS system to the table
| is immediately worth it to me.
| seanmcdirmid wrote:
| Ya, I get that. Red Robin has screens/computers/payment
| kiosks at each table to avoid that problem. They won't
| use QR codes at sit down restaurants in the states for
| payments because of tipping, however. Psychologically,
| you are more likely to tip more if the waiter is directly
| involved in the billing.
| whimsicalism wrote:
| Hm, maybe.
|
| But can they afford to have an NFC reader at every single
| table?
|
| Can street vendors without access to electricity/mobile
| connection just hold up a QR code cut into some wood and
| you can pay that way?
|
| NFC seems to put the onus on the vendor, Wechat pay/Alipay
| has no such problem.
|
| It's definitely not quick in the US, where it hasn't been
| really adopted at the same level, it might be fast in
| Australia.
| seanmcdirmid wrote:
| Different culture. You pay at one place, no or few street
| vendors, modern convenience stores abound.
|
| I've seen and used NFC pads attached to cellphones using
| Square adapters, so you can go that route if you want.
|
| NFC is definitely much faster in Australia than in the
| USA.
| vmception wrote:
| Same experience scattered across US as well, aside from
| compulsory tipping and added sympathy for service industry
| working - different conversation
|
| but I do love paying with Apple Pay, I always hated how wait
| staff doesn't carry around Point of Sale systems in the US and
| that it takes multiple steps to 1) wait to get their attention
| again to get the bill 2) wait to get their attention again to
| pay for the bill 3) wait for them to return with your payment
| method and hope they don't get sidetracked. Now its down to
| just 1) in places with QR codes on receipts.
| vxNsr wrote:
| > _so a non high-end place with good food will typically have
| rushed and curt wait staff. Ordering through the phone will
| give you a better experience!_
|
| Not sure why that's something we want to encourage.
| wokwokwok wrote:
| Talk about low value comments.
|
| Why not?
|
| Just because you don't like it doesn't mean it's not actually
| better for some people and some situations.
|
| This is obviously a decent use case for QR code's; your
| comments seem just like you don't like it, and you're not
| interested in even considering any other option.
| vxNsr wrote:
| Because encouraging people to be rude to each other is
| distasteful, I thought it was obvious.
|
| Similarly, calling someone a "low value comment" and then
| taking the least charitable view of their comment is
| directly against hn community guidelines.
| Cederfjard wrote:
| I'm assuming that the GP is an American used to American
| standards of being waited on (where the staff are
| incentivized by tips and thus have to impress their
| customers), and so does not want "rushed and curt" service
| to be encouraged (which would diminish their experience),
| rather than them having an aversion to QR codes per se.
| dheera wrote:
| Also because WeChat scans QR codes very fast, and you have to
| only hit 1 tap to do the whole thing. Once WeChat sees a QR it
| opens the link immediately and automatically.
|
| The ordering also makes it more useful. Most restaurants in US
| just have a horrible HTML 1.0 menu with no ordering system, no
| pictures, and sometimes even goddamn frames.
|
| With default Android it's like Home -> swipe -> camera -> Mo
| Shi -> Zhi Hui Jing Tou and then point at the QR code while
| trying to tap the link that pops up as a tiny tooltip on the
| screen at the same time without making it go out of focus at
| the same time. It's awful.
| Liquid_Fire wrote:
| I don't have stock Android on my phone so this may be a
| feature my manufacturer has added, but I'm pretty sure you
| can press the shutter button instead of clicking on the popup
| to open the QR code.
|
| Also, as others have pointed out, with Firefox you can scan
| and open a QR core in two taps, so no need to go to the
| camera app at all.
| seanmcdirmid wrote:
| Unless you are a visiting foreigner without cell phone service
| and the WiFi requires you to login with a working cell phone
| number, then you are in Mei Ban Fa territory.
| 542354234235 wrote:
| Somehow I think that a visiting foreigner that can read
| Chinese to order off a paper menu is probably also going to
| have a working phone number in China. Someone that can't read
| Chinese and needs to use their phone for google translate is
| probably not going to be able to order off a paper menu
| either.
| seanmcdirmid wrote:
| You'd be surprised how many overseas Chinese (who have
| immigrated to somewhere else) who are visiting China are
| trapped by this. And even foreigners who don't read Chinese
| can pick out certain characters of the food they like to
| eat (you don't need to read Chinese very well to recognize
| stereotypical Gong Bao Ji Ding ).
|
| China is really bad at exceptions. Many of those
| restaurants have gotten rid of their paper menus (which
| didn't have English anyways, so they aren't worried about
| foreigners). It's like the train station kiosks that can't
| deal with you if you don't have a Chinese ID card.
| whimsicalism wrote:
| Yes, it is helpful to have cell service, both in China
| and in the United States.
| seanmcdirmid wrote:
| You can get by without cell phone service in the USA. On
| all my business trips back to the USA while living in
| China, I didn't have much a problem (free open wifi is
| pretty common, you can even use Uber pretty easily
| without a phone number).
|
| In China...if someone else can get you a SIM, you'll be
| OK, or maybe you can get one at the airport in customs
| (that used to be possible), though they have been
| cracking down on SIMs without ID numbers or resident
| visas associated with them.
| whimsicalism wrote:
| > they have been cracking down on SIMs without ID numbers
| or resident visas associated with them.
|
| ?? I use Google Fi which has agreements with providers in
| almost every country, I had data as soon as I walked off
| the plane in China. Alipay was almost as easy to set up,
| although I understand that until recently it was limited
| to those with a Chinese bank account.
| seanmcdirmid wrote:
| > I use Google Fi which gives has agreements with
| providers in almost every country, I had data as soon as
| I walked off the plane in China
|
| That sounds really nice...and a bit surprising
| considering nothing else Google works in China without a
| VPN.
|
| So...does it also work as a normal phone with a Chinese
| number so you can logon to wifi at Starbucks in China?
| whimsicalism wrote:
| > a bit surprising considering nothing else Google works
| in China without a VPN.
|
| It is a bit surprising, although Google does have offices
| in China. It also has a VPN built in, which I recall
| would intermittently bypass the GFW.
|
| > So...does it also work as a normal phone with a Chinese
| number so you can logon to wifi at Starbucks in China?
|
| No, I don't think so, but I had unlimited data.
| seanmcdirmid wrote:
| Were you in Guangzhou by any chance? They weird
| connections for foreigners that bypass the firewall,
| things that don't exist in Beijing or Shanghai.
| whimsicalism wrote:
| No, I was in Beijing, Kunming, and Shanghai. But I
| honestly don't recall the specifics of the firewall
| bypass - I was using Outline (another Google sponsored
| project, funnily enough) to skip it most of the time
| anyways.
| advanced-DnD wrote:
| As an overseas Chinese visiting China, the cashier always
| look at me weirdly when I told them (in Chinese) I don't have
| online wallet/mobile internet. They think I'm taking them for
| a laugh.
| qbasic_forever wrote:
| Is it weird that I haven't been inside a restaurant in nearly 18
| months and have no idea this change even occured?
| joshspankit wrote:
| I wonder if anyone is printing unique QR codes _for each set of
| diners_ so that they can track engagement more deeply. Or "scan
| _this_ code to flag the waiter".
| dagw wrote:
| At all the places I've seen doing this, they have a unique QR
| code for each table.
| rhapsodic wrote:
| Me: Uh, could I have a printed menu please?
|
| Waiter: I'm sorry, we don't use printed menus anymore. You'll
| have to scan the QR code with your phone.
|
| Me: Actually, I need a printed menu as an ADA accommodation. Are
| you refusing?
|
| Waiter: Give me a minute and I'll get you a menu.
| IncRnd wrote:
| How do you know that the QR code is to the proper website address
| and not from a flyer placed by the last person at the table
| (pointing to a malicious website).
| asciimov wrote:
| I agree, I want paper menus always, but maybe for different
| reasons.
|
| Today it is difficult to go out to eat with friends or family
| without everybody being on their damned phones. Making people use
| QR codes just gives them an excuse to get it out to look at the
| menu, and then check their email while its out, reply to a non-
| urgent text, and finally might as well look at reddit for a few
| moments.
|
| I want the opposite of this nightmare we live. I want people out
| of their phones and into discussions. I want their attention, and
| to give them mine. Phones get in the way of that exchange.
| Farbklex wrote:
| This shows that there is room for a well designed, easy menu app.
| No ordering, no separate app installs, no mandatory accounts for
| the end-customer, no PDF menus.
|
| Native app clip / instant app is a also a good use case for this
| if you really want to develop more than just a good mobile site.
| Add the ability for the owner to quickly make changes to the menu
| (dish of the day?) and it should be better than what we have
| right now.
|
| Of course only if you have decent internet coverage at the place.
| ww520 wrote:
| I like the dining experience while in Japan. Restaurants have
| kiosks at the entrance taking order and payment. You select the
| order from the menu and pay right there (cash or CC). The machine
| prints a ticket and sends the order to the kitchen. You give the
| ticket to the wait staff. They sit you and begin to bring what're
| in the order to you, drinks, appetizers, meals when ready.
|
| Simple, efficient, fast, low touch, low tech, and no tip.
| Karrot_Kream wrote:
| I gotta say, I disagree with this piece. I, for one, love QR code
| menus. I can pinch zoom rather than squint at a menu with
| small/unreadable fonts in dim lighting. I don't need to badger
| the already exhausted wait staff on a busy night when they forget
| to drop us a menu or two. When orders are taken online, rather
| than awkwardly force a friend to not go to the bathroom (or take
| their kid to the bathroom) until a server can take their order,
| they can just order and then go. I do think restaurants should
| handle payment themselves and have the option for paper menus or
| menus posted on a wall if needed, but otherwise I'm a fan.
| vxNsr wrote:
| You've built a beautiful straw man that I've never seen in real
| life, rarely if ever have I encountered a menu with tiny font
| that is unreadable, I've never been to place that seated me and
| didn't bring the menus at the same time. I've not experienced
| the bathroom thing either even in large parties, but it doesn't
| sound awkward... if someone says they have to go to the
| bathroom they go, just tell the waiter this person will order a
| little later... or they call tell you what they want if they
| already know.
| wlesieutre wrote:
| Just because you have good eyesight doesn't mean everyone
| else does
| nsxwolf wrote:
| If you have something that can read a QR code you also have
| something that can magnify text.
| Talanes wrote:
| I dated a girl with poor eyesight, and absent a digital
| version her method was the phone flashlight and holding
| the menu very close to her face. So the physical version
| was workable, but a pinch to zoom is still more
| dignified.
| [deleted]
| wlesieutre wrote:
| Yes, that or taking photos of each page and then browsing
| them on the phone. Either way it's worse than a good
| phone menu.
|
| Personally I'd rather have a paper menu, but digital ones
| can definitely be more accessible for low vision.
|
| I say _can_ because half of the digital ones are godawful
| UX disasters.
| nsxwolf wrote:
| Oh certainly. Put the QR code on the paper menu.
| wlesieutre wrote:
| Sure, and go back to having to reprint all the menus
| every time you want to change something or update prices,
| needing extras for when menus get destroyed, paying
| people to wipe menus down if you have them laminated,
| etc.
|
| As much as I prefer paper menus, I don't think the
| restaurants that have switched are going to go back to
| it. Would have better luck pressuring them to have less
| shit electronic menus.
| vxNsr wrote:
| Firstly, amoung my friends I have the worst eyesight, it's
| not legally blind thank god, but genetically I got pretty
| unlucky, my dad is legally blind and my mom's eyesight is
| only slightly better than mine. But guess what, someone 400
| years ago invented a great device that helps alleviate 80%
| of the issues that come with poor eyesight and it's great.
| Anyone with poor vision can wear glasses, specifically
| reading glasses can be had for about $5 from any drug store
| (in the US). Ruining the experience of restaurants to only
| slightly convenience a minuscule demographic (those who
| have poor eyesight but for some reason refuse to
| acknowledge it and acquire corrective lenses) is idiotic.
| Bec even then, as the author pointed out you're excluding
| another demographic.
| karmelapple wrote:
| Offering both options has no significant downside, and
| improves accessibility of your restaurant. I don't think
| most restaurants have a Braille version of their menu,
| but having a digital version with VoiceOver-like
| functionality gets you something similar.
| kalleboo wrote:
| Why do you assume he's built a straw man and not just had a
| different experience from you? Service levels vary across the
| planet. I used to live in Europe and restaurant service was
| always dreadfully slow, it could take ages to get the menu
| and order and pay, having a digital system in many of those
| restaurants would be fantastic
| squiggleblaz wrote:
| This isn't necessarily the case. If restaurant service in a
| region is slow as a rule, it's probably a matter of
| different priorities. There may well be less pressure for
| such a system to speed up the process of ordering, because
| a more relaxed system is seen as a good thing, and the
| system that gets implemented in practice might be worse
| (e.g. perhaps the staff don't like/trust the online order
| system and they will not even check it, or when they do
| check it they still confirm with you).
|
| It is almost certainly better to address the actual problem
| (in this case: a disagreement about priorities and service
| speed) than to implement a technical measure that one party
| thinks will fix a problem that the other party considers a
| feature. By failing to actually address the problem, it
| could cause some people to feel threatened and result in
| other problems.
| monkeynotes wrote:
| Wait, restaurants are making you _order_ from an app too?? So
| now you don 't really need your 'exhausted wait staff' so much.
| Hire less wait staff as a portion are now are underutilized.
| Now some wait staff have no jobs, and the remainder work the
| same exhausting shifts. The reason these wait staff get tips is
| because they work so hard, with less service comes less tips.
| Now you have a whole industry of overworked AND underpaid
| staff.
|
| Any efficiencies you are seeing will be refactored and
| stretched out as any business cannot afford to carry fat if
| they want maximum profit and competitive edge (price).
|
| This whole inconvenience of a friend going to the bathroom is
| an incredibly weak argument for foregoing the tradition and
| ceremony of interacting with a person who will provide you with
| a meal. If you want to live in a McWorld where every step of
| your dining experience is as sterile, efficient, and touch free
| as possible then I am sad for you. That's not what a meal with
| friends and family means to me, it's not just about eating for
| sustenance.
|
| Why do you draw the line at taking payment?
| Cederfjard wrote:
| When I go out to eat with friends and family, the important
| part is spending time with friends and family (and sometimes
| strangers, but that's usually other patrons). I don't mind
| interacting with waitstaff, but it's not adding any value to
| my experience, either - as long as I get my order I don't
| really care about the tradition and ceremony, as you put it.
|
| We went out recently to a place where we ordered with our
| phones and had a great time. It was simple and painless,
| orders were served quickly and it didn't matter that the only
| thing I ever said to staff was "thanks" - I focused on my
| people instead.
| shmel wrote:
| Yeah, I find it very very sad. I am so isolated after 15
| months of lockdowns that I literally go to a restaurant for a
| tiny bit of social interaction, just smalltalk with a waiter.
| Just about 4 out of 5 times they insist on ordering online.
| It gets me quite angry, I can just as well stay home if I
| have to look at the screens even more after looking at the
| screen the whole day.
| astura wrote:
| >The reason these wait staff get tips is because they work so
| hard
|
| The reason they get tips is because they are waitstaff, it
| has zero to do with how hard they work, it's simply custom to
| tip waitstaff, even lazy waitstaff.
|
| Most employees work just as hard without getting tips (like
| the people who are actually cooking the food).
| monkeynotes wrote:
| Maybe for you, I tip extra for working hard to keep my meal
| hot on delivery, water topped up, checking in at
| appropriate times. I honestly don't understand how you can
| say tips are not proportional to level of service and how
| level of service is entirely detached from working hard.
|
| > Most people work just as hard without getting tips (like
| the people who are actually cooking thr food)
|
| Most people get paid a real wage which isn't backfilled
| with charity from their customers.
|
| At many good restaurants tips are distributed to the
| kitchen staff too. Obviously I have no control over that,
| and the world isn't fair either. None of this changes my
| argument.
| astura wrote:
| > I tip extra for working hard to keep my meal hot on
| delivery, water topped up, checking in at appropriate
| times.
|
| Those are things happen with good management, they have
| little to do with how hard an individual employee is
| working at a given time.
|
| Besides the claim wasn't waitstaff gets "extra" tips for
| working hard, the claim was that waitstaff is tipped
| because they work hard. Don't move the goalposts.
|
| >I honestly don't understand how you can say tips are not
| proportional to level of service and how level of service
| is entirely detached from working hard.
|
| I tip the same if my service is shitty, I am not going to
| put an individual employee in a position of taking a pay
| cut when I can't know the exact reason something went
| wrong. I don't know enough about their operations to be
| punishing individual employees. Even if I could tell if
| it were an individual employee's fault, most places pool
| tips, so I'd be punishing the other employees working at
| the same time. So everyone gets the same tip from me.
|
| I also simply just don't enjoy LARPing as a lord of my
| personal fiefdom.
|
| Again, you get good service with good management, simple
| as that.
| msrenee wrote:
| I will admit that I gave a really shitty tip the other
| week. I ordered the salad bar. All she had to do was
| refill my pop and settle the bill. She dropped the check
| off and didn't come back for 15 minutes. I walked over to
| the bar area to find someone to run my card and she was
| bullshitting with another employee. Yeah, no. I make it a
| point to tip well and just consider that part of the cost
| of my food. Not this time. I rounded up to the next
| dollar and I don't know why I even did that.
| monkeynotes wrote:
| > waitstaff gets "extra" tips for working hard
|
| All tips are 'extra' that's the whole concept. It's money
| on top of what I am obliged to pay.
|
| > you get good service with good management
|
| Good management would pay a good wage and negate the need
| for tipping.
|
| > I also simply just don't enjoy LARPing as a lord of my
| personal fiefdom.
|
| Low blow. You are implying that I am less than you
| because I have some kind of financial control over
| waitstaff that I enjoy. A rather bad faith position to be
| in given how pious and understanding you are striving to
| come across as.
|
| > most places pool tips
|
| So now you agree kitchen staff get tipped too
|
| > I tip the same if my service is shitty
|
| Good for you. I don't think many people operate like
| this, so I'd say you are an edge case.
|
| > it has zero to do with how hard they work, it's simply
| custom to tip waitstaff, even lazy waitstaff
|
| Again, this is how you operate. Wikipedia lays out the
| common perception of tipping
|
| "The customary amount of a tip can be a specific range of
| monetary amounts or a certain percentage of the bill
| based on the perceived quality of the service given."
|
| I've experienced living in the UK without tipping, and in
| N.America with tipping. All I can say is it's night and
| day. Very few make a career out of working as waitstaff
| in the UK, plenty of people have a career in the service
| industry in N.America. Working hard for large tips can
| give you a living wage. In the UK because everyone is
| treated the same, waitstaff do the minimum for the
| minimum wage (there are exceptions, of course) and then
| find a better job. Since I left the UK this has begun to
| change, it's now reasonably common to tip in nicer
| restaurants, and guess what? The service is better and
| the waitstaff I assume are happier with more money in
| their pockets for their effort.
| grumple wrote:
| Perhaps you are unaware, but in the US, tipped waitstaff
| only make $2.83/hr in most places (tipped minimum wage).
| These people need tips in order to make any money. Nobody
| is working hard for 2.83/hr.
|
| This is changing since now people are refusing to work
| those jobs. And yes, the entire industry is dumb and
| corrupt for having this practice in the first place, but it
| is what it is.
| matz1 wrote:
| Maybe you are not aware, if the tip is not enough to
| match the non tipped minimum wage then the employer has
| to make up the difference.
| grumple wrote:
| In practice, tipped employees typically get 0 dollar
| paychecks from their employers; the business assumes that
| your tips bring you up to the minimum wage, whether true
| or not, and they pay taxes on your behalf accordingly.
| This is also typically calculated on a pay period basis,
| rather than by hour or by day, which results in
| overstaffing during slow periods to the detriment of all
| employees, because as long as you get up to the general
| minimum wage via tips (which is a paltry wage), the
| business still pays you peanuts.
| matz1 wrote:
| Thats not true, tipped employees typically do get >0
| dollar paycheck from their employers. That is their base
| hourly wage.
|
| general minimum wage is peanuts, yes. but tipped
| waitstaff only make $2.83/hr is not true. If the employer
| did not make up the difference then they risk being
| fined/shutdown.
| dragonwriter wrote:
| > Perhaps you are unaware, but in the US, tipped
| waitstaff only make $2.83/hr in most places (tipped
| minimum wage).
|
| Perhaps _you_ are unaware, but:
|
| (1) US federal tipped minimum cash wage is $2.13, not
| $2.83, but also
|
| (2) Most US states and territories have a tipped minimum
| wage above the federal tipped minimum (and also, though
| by a smaller margin, most have a tipped minimum above
| $2.83, which is PA's tipped minimum.)
|
| https://www.dol.gov/agencies/whd/state/minimum-
| wage/tipped
| grumple wrote:
| Sorry, you're right, a quick google search revealed my
| state's wage, not the fed (forgot to check the
| difference, which is so negligible that it's insulting).
|
| This does not change my point in the slightest, which is
| that wait staff need tips to survive because the tipped
| minimum wage is unlivable basically everywhere.
| dragonwriter wrote:
| > This does not change my point in the slightest, which
| is that wait staff need tips to survive because the
| tipped minimum wage is unlivable basically everywhere.
|
| Its the same as the general minimum in several places,
| and at or above the federal general (not just tipped)
| minimum even more, so if its unlivable "basically
| everywhere" that's more than just a _tipped_ minimum
| problem.
| grumple wrote:
| It's the same as the general minimum in only 7 states.
|
| Yes, the general minimum wage is a problem too. But in 43
| states the tipped minimum is a greater problem.
| Tor3 wrote:
| "Wait, restaurants are making you order from an app too?? So
| now you don't really need your 'exhausted wait staff' so
| much. Hire less wait staff as a portion are now are
| underutilized. Now some wait staff have no jobs, and the
| remainder work the same exhausting shifts. "
|
| Not around here, no. Was out eating yesterday. That place we
| went to has the exact same number of wait staff as before QR
| codes, the difference is only that they're not exhausted,
| they are not stressed when interacting with us (showing us
| the table, bringing food, checking in on us if we need
| something else, etc). We don't have to wait for them to get
| the bill or to pay. The overall atmosphere is much more
| relaxed now. And yes the other places I visit also keep the
| same number of staff as before, as far as I can tell.
| ar_lan wrote:
| > Now some wait staff have no jobs, and the remainder work
| the same exhausting shifts.
|
| This is a lot to unpack. I'm always surprised by people in
| the tech industry, where we seek to automate so much to make
| things better... be against innovation?
|
| If a QR menu can tangibly provide a similar or better
| experience, for less cost, then it is objectively a better
| value for everyone involved. We shouldn't keep manual jobs
| around "just because." If that was a valid mindset, then we
| should get rid of all cars and have large caravans of people
| to trade across the country to ensure more people have jobs.
|
| In this case, the question becomes "does the QR code provide
| a similar, or better, experience?" Only time will tell - but
| if it does, overall, then it will replace the wait staff, and
| this is a good thing.
|
| This is why discussions of UBI take place, because we
| shouldn't intentionally do things less efficiently just to
| save jobs.
|
| > The reason these wait staff get tips is because they work
| so hard, with less service comes less tips. Now you have a
| whole industry of overworked AND underpaid staff.
|
| I don't disagree here, but tip culture is an absurd concept
| and I wish it would die in America. Just bake it into the
| price of the menu, and pay workers better.
| stjohnswarts wrote:
| For me it's an automatic yes as long as the restaurant has
| wifi that is easy to access. Mostly because I get to avoid
| germs from all the previous hands who held the menu. Most
| people's hands are far more germy than a toilet seat if
| they haven't been recently washed.
| fleddr wrote:
| To each their own, but to me this ceremony provides zero
| value. Waiters take the order and may comment on the weather,
| it's not like we're developing a deep friendship here.
|
| The "tradition" is to sit, wait for a waiter to appear. Ask
| for purpose (lunch? big meal? just a drink?). Then you wait
| again for the correct menu to appear. Then you get asked for
| a drink. And wait for the drink. And then comes the longer
| wait where the waiter tries to detect when you are ready to
| order, if they see it at all.
|
| Combined, that's some 20-30 mins in and the prepping of your
| meal hasn't even started yet.
|
| Now if you're the kind of person that's going to be in there
| 3-4 hours anyway, the ritual doesn't harm, but it doesn't add
| much value either. It's needlessly slow and inefficient.
|
| Your future dystopian nightmare is already here, and it's
| fine. In the Netherlands, some sushi restaurants work as
| follow. You are seated. There's an iPad for everyone, and
| people just tap what they want. Some minutes later, your food
| arrives. This supposed cold-hearted efficiency means I get to
| spend more time engaging with my friends, the very point of
| the visit.
|
| By the way, you're not doing restaurants any favors with a
| slow and long visit. It means they can't use your table
| twice. So finish your meal in 1.5-2 hours and if still not
| bored with your friends, go to a damn bar.
| drdeadringer wrote:
| 3-4 hours is a long time. That sounds like a leisurely
| dinner set on "Italian Mode" [no offence] with a
| reservation, not a work lunch on Tuesday in the US.
|
| This ritual or ceremony of waiter, menu, waiting, ordering,
| signalling for the cheque that you apparently find vile...
| I enjoy it. Any inefficiency you have declared is part of
| the experience of going out to eat.
|
| You want fast food? Go get fast food.
|
| You want a butler and cook? Hire them.
|
| You want to go out to dinner? Here's a waitress, menu, and
| some time for walking back and forth between their station
| and your table and their other tables in their zone.
|
| All of this is, or at least should be, factored in to the
| restaurant's business. It's been 100 years, at least in the
| US. If they don't get it by now, at least you should.
| fleddr wrote:
| It didn't say any of those steps are vile. I said that in
| my opinion, they are needless steps that don't add value
| to guests or the restaurant itself.
|
| A restaurant wants to know your order. Why does this
| simple thing take 20-30 mins? Whom benefits? How does it
| enrich your experience exactly, this useless waiting and
| pointing at a menu?
| navhc2 wrote:
| Then you should continue patronizing restaurants that
| have the traditional method, and whoever doesn't want
| that can seek out restaurants with more efficient
| methods. Forcing your definition of what a restaurant
| "should be" is detrimental to everyone, more choice is
| better for everyone.
| UncleMeat wrote:
| Outside of high end restaurants, I'm not sure that I've ever
| once been provided with useful information by a server. "See
| if you can get our server's attention when they come by, we
| are ready to order/pay" is a fairly common occurrence, even
| at solid places.
|
| Does this reduce the need for waitstaff at most places? Yes.
| Is that bad for waitstaff. Yes. Is that a reason to want a
| person to physically write down my order and type it into a
| machine in the back? Eh.
| nyghtly wrote:
| I have one interesting observation about one part of what you
| said: I wouldn't say that tips will go down. If anything,
| COVID has shown us that tips actually go up the less service
| that we get.
|
| https://www.wsj.com/articles/tipping-for-online-orders-
| becam...
| dheera wrote:
| Ugh. Why can't we have both?
|
| First of all it takes a shitton of steps to scan a QR code if
| you don't have WeChat. On a default Android device you have to
| click 7 or 8 times to get into the QR scanner thingy inside
| Google Lens. I carry a 2nd phone with WeChat and I can scan
| things in 0 seconds flat, but most people don't have it around
| here in the US.
|
| And then many restaurants' QR menus just redirect you to their
| website with a terrible experience, and sometimes no pictures.
|
| And then it's annoying as hell to try to read a phone screen in
| daylight outdoors.
|
| If you can print a QR menu just print the damn menu also. Put
| the QR code on the menu cover for people who really want that.
|
| These days I often just ask wait staff what they have because I
| don't want to look at my phone.
| dragonwriter wrote:
| > First of all it takes a shitton of steps to scan a QR code
| if you don't have WeChat Not really, on most real devices.
|
| > On a default Android device you have to click 7 or 8 times
| to get into the QR scanner thingy inside Google Lens.
|
| Perhaps, on stock Android with no manufacturer special apps.
| But the Samsung, Google, and LG Camera apps, at least, have
| "point at a QR code and the camera reads it", so it takes as
| many clicks as opening the Camera app.
| dheera wrote:
| Hm, I have a Pixel 5 and it most certainly doesn't do that.
| Nothing happens.
|
| https://i.imgur.com/kjFEwiR.jpg
|
| Then again, starting about 5 weeks ago it also stopped
| responding to "OK Google" and 3 weeks ago it stopped
| announcing turn-by-turn directions during GPS navigation so
| I guess this is the state of tech in 2021 :-/
|
| (Definitely don't want an Apple device though, massive
| privacy issue for me to use a closed source kernel and that
| I can't easily introspect and MITM SSL requests on to see
| what data is being sent about me, I _do_ like Android for
| the fact that I can more or less much hook into any part of
| the OS and execute custom code to monitor what the hell
| apps are doing behind the curtain, and even give them fake-
| but-realistic sensor data to even further protect my
| privacy.)
| atatatat wrote:
| I stopped trusting Google to put out bugfree products
| right around the time the Chromecast 2 came out.
|
| It's been a downhill expectation on experience since.
| dzhiurgis wrote:
| How do you do MITM SSL when pretty much every secure app
| use key pinning.
| dheera wrote:
| Exactly, on iOS it's not easy, on Android it's far easier
| because the OS listens to you, not Apple or Google, and
| it's far easier to root Android than it is to jailbreak
| iOS, or run an open source fork like LineageOS and run
| the same apps on that.
|
| You can (a) decompile the app, mod it, recompile it, sign
| it, and then execute it (b) modify the OS to not care
| about app signatures (c) bypass it with Xposed hooks, ...
| lots of ways.
| dzhiurgis wrote:
| I find hard to believe that you can decompile any app
| that has bothered implementing key pinning (which I
| always assumed is done at app level, not OS).
| mcny wrote:
| Speaking of https, I will give my own example. I can get
| to the cockpit (local ip:9090) of my fedora machine on my
| android phone if I continue past the scary warning but
| not on my iphone.
| NavinF wrote:
| I can bypass the self-signed cert error on my iPhone 8 on
| iOS 14.4.2
|
| That aside, what's the point? There's no practical threat
| model where https makes what you're doing more secure. If
| you have neither a domain name that can use a real TLS
| cert nor your own CA added to the mobile device, it would
| be trivial for someone to MITM you. Just configure your
| Fedora dashboard to use http if you don't care about
| security
| lorenzhs wrote:
| You can most definitely bypass the invalid certificate
| warning on iOS (I also have a device that uses a self-
| signed certificate and listens on a local IP, I can open
| its web interface just fine on iOS)
| fingerlocks wrote:
| I think you have this backwards? Its much easier to
| bypass cert pinning and MITM a local process on an Apple
| device. Disable SIP on Mac OS or jailbreak an iPhone (15
| minutes on _almost_ the latest iOS), 'lldb attach' and
| away you swizzle.
| bitten wrote:
| Pixel user here too. You have to enable "Google Lens
| suggestions" in the camera settings for it to read QR
| codes automatically.
|
| Drop down menu > Camera Settings > Google Lens
| suggestions.
| SethMurphy wrote:
| In addition on my pixel 3 you can open camera app and
| long press QR code. This works with or without enabling
| lens suggestions.
|
| So, double press power button, long tap QR code, and
| click link to visit site.
| atoav wrote:
| Firefox Android can scan directly from the URL bar of a new
| tab.
| don-code wrote:
| This made my day. I always love finding out about super-
| useful features I wasn't aware of in software I use every
| day. Thank you!
| saxelsen wrote:
| You just blew my mind!
| tluyben2 wrote:
| This must be a very personal experience as I recognize none
| of this and never heard this from anyone either. I think you
| just simply need a newer phone. I have a cheap Samsung and I
| live in a place where the sun is always on and usually no
| clouds, and yet I walk kilometers every day doing work on my
| phone. No issue reading anything. And like the others say:
| the camera app automatically and very robustly pics up qr
| codes when you wave it past it.
|
| I like qr codes anyway: I don't like dead tree printing or
| touching stuff that is not mine but had a million hands on it
| (I had that before covid).
| teddyh wrote:
| > _I think you just simply need a newer phone._
|
| "yeah I'll get right on that"
|
| https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hpQQohcHk9Q
| teddyh wrote:
| I found the original: https://www.patreon.com/posts/just-
| buy-new-one-16961122
| vmception wrote:
| on iPhone it is a single gesture from a locked phone to scan
| the QR code
|
| I also really love how many restuarants put a QR code on the
| receipt that opens Apple Pay
| snovv_crash wrote:
| Normal camera app scans QR codes...
| dheera wrote:
| I have to swipe to the rightmost tab in normal camera app
| and then hit Google Lens and then hover over it while
| trying to top the tiny tooltip that pops up with my huge
| finger.
|
| Horrible experience.
|
| It should just open the web page with zero taps if I point
| at a QR code in ANY camera mode, even portrait or panorama
| or movie or whatever the last mode I was on. I shouldn't
| have to tell it "I'm going to scan a QR code", it should
| always be looking for one, because it's computationally
| very, very cheap.
| NamTaf wrote:
| On the iPhone, you literally just open the camera app,
| point it at the QR code, and a drop-down notification
| will prompt opening it in the browser. Thus, it is
| absolutely looking for one always as you describe.
| meheleventyone wrote:
| Same on my OG Pixel.
| dagmx wrote:
| The default camera app on both AOSP and iOS phones will scan
| QR codes, so it's really just a single step.
| jbluepolarbear wrote:
| Yes, but you still need to click the link, open in the
| browser. I don't trust the average restaurant to make
| correct security decisions on their online menu/payment
| system. So pass.
| Spivak wrote:
| You mean a PDF hosted on a squarespace site? Or one of
| the many many apps that integrate with POS systems to do
| scan and pay?
| PretzelPirate wrote:
| Most restaurants I've been to have their QR code link to
| a PDF and not an ordering website with payments.
| jbluepolarbear wrote:
| That's a worse user experience.
| PretzelPirate wrote:
| It's much better. It's easy for people to see even with
| visual impairments. Everyone sets up their phone to
| accommodate their own needs.
|
| You can always take the time to ask for a menu and I'm
| sure someone will bring you one, but it's my opinion that
| you're making too big of a deal out of something that's
| such a small part of the dining experience.
| Spivak wrote:
| Than what? A printout of the same PDF? I mean if you
| prefer paper then yeah, I get it but it's such a small
| difference.
| tootie wrote:
| Also, you can do a text search.
| wisty wrote:
| I am sure there are plenty of web-based alternative UI
| disasters to replace menus with fonts that are too small to
| read properly.
| casion wrote:
| I've never seen a QR code menu. I wasn't aware that this is a
| thing.
|
| An I the only one?
| modo_mario wrote:
| It seems to be a regional thing. I never noticed em much in the
| wider region where i live in Belgium but then i went to
| Brussels and suddenly every restaurant and bar had em.
|
| Some at least did have regular menus too and the barcodes
| mostly served as a quicker alternative until said menu was
| brought.
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