[HN Gopher] Citing a serious flight test incident, FAA slows Boe...
       ___________________________________________________________________
        
       Citing a serious flight test incident, FAA slows Boeing 777X
       certification
        
       Author : donohoe
       Score  : 124 points
       Date   : 2021-06-27 16:00 UTC (7 hours ago)
        
 (HTM) web link (www.seattletimes.com)
 (TXT) w3m dump (www.seattletimes.com)
        
       | kerng wrote:
       | I wonder how much longer it will take Boeing to realize the best
       | way forward is to cancel this plane, and start from scratch.
       | 
       | This project will just keep costing them money, continue eroding
       | trust and probably more fatalities along the way...
        
         | amelius wrote:
         | And the 737MAX too.
        
       | slumdev wrote:
       | If it's Boeing, I ain't going!
       | 
       | Hard to believe they wouldn't invest and ensure that their
       | software is perfect after the MAX incidents, but here we are.
        
       | plank_time wrote:
       | If it's just pilots and peons in the plane during the test
       | flights, it will only be about saving money.
       | 
       | They need to put an executive in every one of the test flights
       | until it is fully certified. I assure you it will be the safest
       | plane you will ever fly.
        
       | alkonaut wrote:
       | If Airbus hadn't made a detour with the A380, it would be almost
       | comical how much better their product portfolio is now compared
       | to Boeing. The A320neo vs the 737MAX and the A350 vs 777 and
       | 787... Boeing needs a win, quickly.
        
         | bpodgursky wrote:
         | The 787 is doing fine. It alone has outsold the A350.
        
           | Glawen wrote:
           | 787 is smaller and came sooner than the a350, it fits nicely
           | between the a330 and a350. The a350 is competing against the
           | 777 I would say.
           | 
           | Boeing better estimated the widebody market than Airbus, but
           | they lately have a problem with implementation.
        
         | ju-st wrote:
         | Don't forget A220
        
         | t0mas88 wrote:
         | The A380 was a good example of getting the prediction of demand
         | wrong. It looked good for the gulf carriers, but the US and
         | European carriers moved to more direct flights due to consumer
         | demand, for which the A380 is the wrong choice.
        
           | alkonaut wrote:
           | It appears to be an excellent plane, but it was the Concorde
           | of its time. Or the F-35. Too large and complex to build and
           | too few customers. The economic downturn and seismic shift in
           | demand from hub and spoke as you point out was the nail in
           | the coffin. I desperately need to go fly one of the "good
           | ones" before they are all converted to 100% economy and then
           | retired...
        
             | PicassoCTs wrote:
             | The biggest irony of the whole affair is, that the
             | notorious delayed berlin airport was redesigned and
             | rebuilt, to accommodate the A380 and when it was finally
             | done, the plane was no longer relevant.
        
               | raverbashing wrote:
               | Yeah but the changes needed are not exclusive for the
               | A380, but fit the 777 and 350 as well (I think. At least
               | the 777 and of course the 747 which is more common)
               | 
               | Most airports came before the A380, you'd change one/two
               | gates at most.
        
               | alkonaut wrote:
               | 777X gets folding wingtips, is that to fit in gates
               | without needing any such changes?
        
               | raverbashing wrote:
               | Exactly that.
        
               | coredog64 wrote:
               | The original 777 had an option for folding wingtips. ISTR
               | American Airlines asked for it so that they could operate
               | out of some space constrained airports on domestic
               | routes. The engineering was done, the avionics have
               | options for folding wingtips, and then nobody ever
               | ordered the plane with them.
        
               | 238475235243 wrote:
               | Pretty much nobody flies the 747 any more for passenger
               | ops.
        
               | ciceryadam wrote:
               | Lufthansa does, 747-8s though.
        
           | sephamorr wrote:
           | A380 is also quite a fuel-inefficient plane. It optimizes for
           | passenger load per aircraft seemingly at the expense of
           | everything else.
        
             | LightG wrote:
             | A shame the A380 is given a good kicking generally over
             | stuff like this ... it's easily my favourite plane in terms
             | of flight experience ... I actually started enjoying flying
             | again and when booking holidays or work flights, filtering
             | flights specifically to make sure I got on the A380.
             | 
             | Hope it's around for many years.
        
       | trollied wrote:
       | > The FAA cited a long litany of concerns, including a serious
       | flight control incident during a test flight on Dec. 8, 2020,
       | when the plane experienced an "uncommanded pitch event" --
       | meaning the nose of the aircraft pitched abruptly up or down
       | without input from the pilots.
       | 
       | Crikey. MCAS all over again. Something at Boeing is very, very
       | out of control.
        
         | vmception wrote:
         | My understanding is that they are trying to make planes that
         | are too big to actually fly without continual software
         | correction
         | 
         | Can they just not do that?
        
           | LeoPanthera wrote:
           | The Antonov An-225 Mriya was designed in 1985. I'm not an
           | expert, but I doubt it has any significant computing power on
           | board.
           | 
           | https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antonov_An-225_Mriya
        
           | deergomoo wrote:
           | My understanding was that they're trying to use software to
           | make their new planes fly like their old planes (at least
           | that was the reasoning for MCAS in the 737 MAX). In super
           | basic terms, if the new plane doesn't fly like the old plane,
           | all the pilots need to be retrained. This is a significant
           | expense that could make a serious dent in sales.
           | 
           | I don't think it's anything to do with size, there are larger
           | planes than the 777X that are perfectly safe (and of course,
           | the 737 is pretty small as far as airliners go).
        
             | LatteLazy wrote:
             | Isn't there also some weird requirement that pilots only
             | fly one/two airframes at a time? So training for a 777
             | means your can't fly 747 or something else anymore?
        
           | VBprogrammer wrote:
           | The 777 is fly by wire so it wouldn't be a good idea.
        
         | Aperocky wrote:
         | What could go wrong if we just fire all the programmers that
         | make too much and outsource the software?
        
           | Guest42 wrote:
           | It is my understanding that in aerospace much of the software
           | is outsourced and is then QAed by internal contractors.
        
           | throwaway713 wrote:
           | I suddenly became afraid of flying when I started working for
           | one of the companies known for having some of the best
           | software engineers in the world and seeing how many bugs made
           | it into prod. I can't imagine who is programming the flight
           | computers for Boeing and what they're being paid. It's gotten
           | bad enough that I refuse to fly on any plane that was
           | released in the last decade. At least the older planes have
           | some decent trip statistics to back up their safety.
        
           | lawless_c wrote:
           | The programmers are just trying to patch what once again is
           | likely a hardware problem. If it's like the MAX the real
           | issue is the flight characteristics
        
             | landemva wrote:
             | Won quoted as, "The technical data required for type
             | certification has not reached a point where it appears the
             | aircraft type design is mature ..."
             | 
             | The 737MAX should have gone through a new type
             | certification, but didn't to allow for less pilot
             | retraining.
             | 
             | FAA failed to properly serve the public.
             | 
             | New type cert finds flaws and saves lives.
        
             | _ph_ wrote:
             | Basically every modern jet aircraft with relatively large
             | engines has some sort of MCAS system. If you raise the nose
             | of such a plane the balance does shift. This isn't a form
             | of an aerodynamic error, it is a consequence of having
             | large engines hanging off your wings (a lot of classic
             | airplanes have the engines in or very close to their
             | central axis). If you want the appropriate feedback in the
             | steering column, you have to compensate for the shift.
             | Airbus does it as well.
        
               | dundarious wrote:
               | MCAS-like systems exist elsewhere, but MCAS specifically
               | is worthy of criticism, as both an engineering failure
               | and more importantly IMO a management failure.
               | 
               | Specifically with regard to the flight characteristics,
               | MCAS is a band-aid on a problem created by cost-
               | minimization -- the desire to avoid a hardware redesign
               | (to properly accommodate the larger engines) and/or a re-
               | certification.
        
               | _ph_ wrote:
               | Of course, the actual implementation of MCAS was a
               | disaster. Especially, that they didn't deactivate it
               | automatically on AOA disagree, that on top of that the
               | screen signal for AOA disagree was not shown due to a
               | separate issue and of course that late in development
               | MCAS was given more control authority than initially
               | planned.
               | 
               | My point just was, a complete redesign of the 737 still
               | would have to deal with the same aerodynamic issues as
               | the 737 MAX, as they are rather fundamental to this kind
               | of jets. But indeed, it would have been easier to deal
               | with it with a new design.
               | 
               | It is less mentioned, that shortly after the MAX crashes,
               | Airbus mandated that in some planes the last rows were
               | kept empty until some software updates were deployed. So
               | they seem to have discovered some boundary conditions
               | they were not happy with and decided to be rather safe
               | till they augmented the software.
        
               | FabHK wrote:
               | > late in development MCAS was given more control
               | authority than initially planned
               | 
               | ... without triggering re-evaluation of the
               | seriousness/consequences of failure. That meant that
               | failures of MCAS were considered unproblematic, which
               | meant that lower levels of redundancy were deemed
               | acceptable.
               | 
               | Quite a process/management failure.
        
               | Gravityloss wrote:
               | Yes, it's the _aerodynamic lift_ from the big engine fans
               | that was the 737 Max issue, according to Aviation Week.
               | Fans have gotten bigger as engines have improved and the
               | bypass ratios and fuel efficiency has gotten better.
               | 
               | Think of the engines as a big horizontal stabilizer but
               | it's at the front, in front of the center of gravity.
               | Normally it doesn't do much anything since the angle of
               | attack is zero. But if you increase pitch, it will
               | increase nose-up momentum.
               | 
               | For some reasons it's not common to put the engines
               | further back. DC-9 style, on the sides of the rear
               | fuselage might work. Or maybe over the wing and slightly
               | to the rear, like Hondajet.
        
               | wyldfire wrote:
               | The bonkers thing seemed to me to be having the
               | notification and/or override as an opt-in feature you
               | could buy. Southwest didn't want to train pilots and
               | newly visible behavior requires new training. No surprise
               | that airlines elsewhere in the world also skimped on the
               | "optional" features to the doom of the passengers and
               | crew.
        
               | carl_dr wrote:
               | The opt-in feature you mention was for a disagree alert
               | for the plane's angle of attack sensors.
               | 
               | But, MCAS was only ever using a single angle of attack
               | sensor as its source of truth, so if there was a fault in
               | that single sensor, MCAS could activate at normal
               | attitudes.
               | 
               | But the real problem was that Boeing hadn't documented
               | MCAS, to avoid the requirement for pilots to obtain type
               | certification for the MAX (so any existing 737 pilot
               | could to fly it without additional training - and it
               | wasn't just Southwest objecting to this training), and to
               | avoid a full FAA certification process for the MAX.
               | 
               | So on an MCAS activation, even if they had had an AoA
               | alert, pilots would not know how to instinctively deal
               | with it. (I don't doubt an AOA disagree alert would give
               | invaluable information allowing the pilots to rule out
               | most failures, which when only a few thousand feet high
               | would maybe have saved both planes.)
               | 
               | On the previous day to the Lion 610 crash, the incident
               | aircraft suffered an MCAS activation and fortunately a
               | pilot in the jump seat realised what was happening and
               | what was needed to deactivate it.
               | 
               | It seems being sat behind the trim wheels (so he could
               | see they were moving) and not wrestling to keep the plane
               | in the sky at the same time was needed for that to
               | happen. It must have been terrifying.
        
               | coredog64 wrote:
               | 737 trim wheels are very visible and very loud. The noise
               | and motion they create have been a joke within the 737
               | community for at least 20 years.
        
               | amelius wrote:
               | What is the advantage of the engines further from the
               | central axis?
        
               | smegcicle wrote:
               | iirc that's another term for larger, more efficient
               | engines hanging lower from the same wings
        
               | dotancohen wrote:
               | Time, money.
               | 
               | They don't need to redesign the wings to accommodate the
               | newer, larger engines.
        
               | coredog64 wrote:
               | There's only so much room for the landing gear. Larger
               | diameter engines require longer landing gear. Increasing
               | the space given to landing gear requires changes to the
               | wing box. Changes to the wing box is fundamentally a wing
               | redesign.
        
               | Gwypaas wrote:
               | Which is why the A320 is designed to be loaded with
               | conveyors. This means it has no problem accommodating an
               | even larger nacelle than the 737 in a regular position
               | instead of the up and forward the 737 Max resorted to.
               | Even the previous generation 737 was running into this
               | issue and that's why they went with the distinct oval
               | nacelles.
        
               | _ph_ wrote:
               | The main driver is the desire to make engines bigger,
               | thus more fuel-efficient. The fuel savings of the newest
               | engine generations are significant. If you hang engines
               | from your wings (I assume that has practical reasons, it
               | is easier to hang the engine than include it into the
               | wing, it is also easier to maintain), larger engines mean
               | engines further from the axis. That applies to all modern
               | airplanes which share this configuration. A complete
               | redesign of the 737 wouldn't have made this go away
               | either. However the goal of keeping the same type rating
               | made the especial design of MCAS necessary.
        
               | missedthecue wrote:
               | Non-engineer here. What's wrong with taller landing gear
               | to provide more clearance?
        
               | hasperdi wrote:
               | In 737 case, it means redesign of the landing gear
               | system, fuselage modifications, recertification,
               | retraining, new support system requirements eg. Higher
               | stairs, cargo support equipment etc.
        
               | adgjlsfhk1 wrote:
               | Taller landing gear makes loading the plane (especially
               | with luggage) much harder.
        
             | WalterBright wrote:
             | > If it's like the MAX the real issue is the flight
             | characteristics
             | 
             | The real issue was the reliance on one sensor coupled with
             | too much authority give to MCAS and inadequate failure
             | analysis.
             | 
             | And pilots who did not read, remember, or follow the 2 step
             | recovery process in the Emergency Airworthiness Directive
             | sent to all MAX pilots.
        
           | _ph_ wrote:
           | This is really a crucial point. I am a software developer in
           | an engineering company. What is essential for my job is not
           | only my programming skills, but also a decent understanding
           | of the engineering I deal with. This can only be achieved by
           | working long enough in the job, be it an engineer who picks
           | up programming or a software developer who learns the
           | engineering involved.
           | 
           | This is of course much more expensive than picking up any
           | contractor, who might be brilliant at programming, but lacks
           | the domain knowledge that only grows over time, but it is a
           | good way of having more eyes spotting potential spec issues.
        
             | rbanffy wrote:
             | I really fail to understand the logic that may make someone
             | to think a software engineer, however brilliant, can write
             | software for a domain they don't understand.
        
               | slumdev wrote:
               | > I really fail to understand the logic that may make
               | someone to think a software engineer, however brilliant,
               | can write software for a domain they don't understand.
               | 
               | This misunderstanding arises out of necessity to
               | compensate for the lack of understanding of the value of
               | nontechnical roles.
               | 
               | It's heartbreaking for BAs, POs, PMs, and every other
               | flavor of functionary when they realize that, after some*
               | years of experience, the programmers understand the
               | business just as well as they do. And the programmers
               | have countless other invaluable skills that the
               | functionary could never understand if he studied for a
               | hundred years.
               | 
               | *This length of time is variable. Depending on the
               | business domain, it could be anywhere between 1 and 10
               | years.
        
               | gumby wrote:
               | > It's heartbreaking for BAs, POs, PMs, and every other
               | flavor of functionary when they realize that, after some*
               | years of experience, the programmers understand the
               | business just as well as they do.
               | 
               | Why heartbreaking? That should make it easier for
               | everybody to do their job, and to do it better.
        
               | rbanffy wrote:
               | > It's heartbreaking for BAs, POs, PMs, and every other
               | flavor of functionary when they realize that, after some*
               | years of experience, the programmers understand the
               | business just as well as they do.
               | 
               | Shouldn't be. Very few engineers want to move to BA/PM/PO
               | or management track.
        
               | lordnacho wrote:
               | I think the point is there shouldn't be BA/PM/PO type
               | people. It should just be engineers all the way.
               | 
               | Engineers who understand those roles exist and should be
               | given the reins. Call them whatever but an engineer with
               | domain knowledge is what you need for just about
               | everything.
        
               | jcims wrote:
               | I'd be curious how well this scales.
               | 
               | We've had quite a bit of success moving to a product
               | model for internal services. One thing I've observed
               | though is that teams lacking strong PM/PO support tend to
               | start looking inward to develop their roadmap rather than
               | outward.
               | 
               | This ends up building little silos in which they are
               | doing _something_ and it's generally executed well but
               | when you explore their plans it can be hard to see how it
               | connects to the larger view.
        
               | salawat wrote:
               | As a QA person, I have to fight with management to get
               | time slotted for exploration, research, and learning
               | work. There's no point crapping out automation for a
               | domain you can't even hold a conversation with SME with.
        
               | slipframe wrote:
               | Wishful thinking.
        
               | Aperocky wrote:
               | If this brilliance can be translated to understanding in
               | other fields, which usually it can. This requires
               | studying, which firms simply tries to avoid.
               | 
               | I am a software engineer now, but my major was mechanical
               | engineering, I can barely remember any of my coursework,
               | but I understand how physics work in general, and a small
               | bonus on how to disect a system. Nobody can know
               | everything in today's world and that's why common
               | engineering/sense training is so important IMO.
        
               | pjmlp wrote:
               | Managers that only see Excel sheets and think software
               | development is like factory work.
        
           | dundarious wrote:
           | Not sure if you're being serious, and while it hasn't been
           | tried AFAIK for the flight software specifically, but cost-
           | minimization and outsourcing has been credited as the major
           | sources of Boeing's safety problems for the last decade (737
           | MAX, 787 Dreamliner, 737NG). Doing more of it would be
           | neither a change of course nor an improvement IMO.
        
             | eganist wrote:
             | > Not sure if you're being serious, and while it hasn't
             | been tried AFAIK for the flight software specifically, but
             | cost-minimization and outsourcing has been credited as the
             | major sources of Boeing's safety problems for the last
             | decade (737 MAX, 787 Dreamliner, 737NG). Doing more of it
             | would be neither a change of course nor an improvement IMO.
             | 
             | I hear you, but I suspect aperocky was criticizing that
             | exact approach.
             | 
             | I.e it felt like sarcasm.
        
               | dundarious wrote:
               | Makes sense, I was genuinely 50/50 about it being
               | sarcastic, but I probably should have been more confident
               | of it, and at the very least should have given more
               | credence to that interpretation than "not sure if...".
        
           | ricardobayes wrote:
           | What the cookie-cutter management doesn't understand is 100%
           | of the company's value goes home after 5PM.
        
           | WalterBright wrote:
           | The MCAS problem had nothing whatsoever to do with
           | outsourcing. The problem was in the specification of its
           | behavior.
        
             | metalforever wrote:
             | This does appear to be related to bad engineering or
             | engineers that do not understand how to program safety
             | systems.
        
           | dotancohen wrote:
           | Actually, the responsible bit of software was already
           | outsourced. There was an HN thread on that some time ago.
        
             | Aperocky wrote:
             | Yes this is what I'm referring to.
        
       | xiphias2 wrote:
       | In a statement Friday, Boeing said it "remains fully focused on
       | safety as our highest priority throughout 777X development."
       | 
       | Now finally that FAA doesn't want to repeat the MAX mistake, I
       | believe Boeing.
        
       | xjwm wrote:
       | More negative press for Boeing, which they probably don't need
       | after all the 737 MAX issues. From the layman's perspective, I
       | can't tell if Engineers have gotten lazy/complacent in their
       | designs, OR if the FAA has gotten significantly better at
       | screening for potential issues, OR if we're operating so close to
       | the edge of the design envelope that these issues are inevitable.
       | I sincerely hope it is number 2 or 3, but my gut feel is that
       | cost cutting and efficiency are winning over safety and good
       | engineering analysis.
        
         | icegreentea2 wrote:
         | Many of the FAA's comment point at Boeing trying to push the
         | regulatory timeline along despite elements (specifically
         | software/firmware/avionics) appearing to be not sufficiently
         | complete. This isn't the same thing as the design being
         | fundamentally bad, or even the implementation being
         | fundamentally flawed - it's just not done.
         | 
         | What's not clear is why this is happening. To be clear, nearly
         | all possible outcomes point at either a broken management,
         | and/or engineering culture at Boeing, but all have different
         | flavors. What points at it being a broken management culture
         | (predominantly... this certainly doesn't rule out engineering
         | problems) is this particular section:
         | 
         | > Citing a "lack of data" and the absence of a Preliminary
         | Safety Assessment for the FAA to review, the agency's letter
         | declares that Boeing hasn't even met its own process
         | requirements.
         | 
         | > Boeing's CCS "review dates have continuously slid over a
         | year," the letter notes.
         | 
         | This section indicates that someone told regulatory to start a
         | TIA process with FAA despite having not completed a review of a
         | vendor supplied critical component (ie, follow their own plan).
         | This indicates that multiple areas within the company which
         | should have been involved (engineering, quality, and
         | regulatory, as well as areas of the company concerned primarily
         | with internal development, and out-sourced systems) were likely
         | all overruled. These are all areas of the company that are
         | supposed to be setup to stop bullshit other areas getting
         | through. All of them have slightly misaligned interests
         | relative to each other that generally tends to keep stuff in
         | check.
         | 
         | Quality is usually very very concerned with at the very least,
         | following your own plan ('meeting its own process
         | requirements'). No one at regulatory would have looked at these
         | gaps (like not at least papering over missing their own process
         | requirements), and thought that formally engaging would be a
         | good idea.
         | 
         | As someone working in medical devices, this definitely smells
         | like something that management rammed through. This doesn't
         | absolve any of other parties/groups of responsibility though.
         | It just means that you have a problem beyond just your
         | documented process, or technical capabilities/competence.
        
         | beavertrilogy wrote:
         | > Within the FAA, the person said, "there's a general feeling
         | that Boeing has kind of lost a step," referring to the slide
         | away from a historic reputation for engineering prowess.
         | 
         | Unfortunately this hits at the development of a culture of
         | complacency.
        
         | fzingle wrote:
         | The whole 737 Max debacle made two things clear.
         | 
         | First, Boeing doesn't prioritize safety anymore. Profit is the
         | driving factor in their decision making. You can read about the
         | issues they have assembling the 787 in South Carolina. It is so
         | bad some airlines are refusing to take delivery unless the
         | plane is validated by the assembly line in Washington.
         | 
         | Second, the FAA was caught being complacent with the 737 Max.
         | It will take some time to fix that, but it is clear they don't
         | want to make the same mistake. Also, the EASA is no longer just
         | rubber stamping approvals following the FAA. Both agencies are
         | combining to improve safety, which is highlighting the
         | management problems at Boeing.
        
           | cptskippy wrote:
           | > Also, the EASA is no longer just rubber stamping approvals
           | following the FAA
           | 
           | This to me speaks volumes about our regulatory environment.
           | Once upon a time the US regulations were so thorough that
           | other countries would just Me-Too certification if the US had
           | certified something. That's no longer the case and the EU has
           | rightly started to question everything.
           | 
           | The US is in rapid decline on all fronts as half our country
           | stands in the way of anyone trying to fix the problems while
           | ignoring our rapid erosion or blaming it on immigrants and
           | leftists.
        
           | mjevans wrote:
           | Also worth noting, the South Carolina plant is NON-union,
           | while the Washington (state) plants are unionized.
           | 
           | I speculate that focus on safety and quality of work are
           | easier at the unionized plants.
        
             | nickik wrote:
             | That is pure speculation. Seems to me the far more simple
             | explanation is that Washington is the traditional home that
             | had decades of buildup and engineering and tightly
             | integrated. Not to mention massive amounts of engineering
             | talent in the region.
             | 
             | While the South Carolina plant was probably set up in a
             | place with far less history, far less integration with
             | engineering, far less historical knowledge and far less
             | engineering talent in the area.
             | 
             | And quite likely a much smaller overall labor pool willing
             | to move there.
        
             | chasd00 wrote:
             | I find it more likely union members are actively sabotaging
             | the non-union plant .
        
           | bobthebuilders wrote:
           | Just an FYI, it's North Charleston in South Carolina.
        
             | fzingle wrote:
             | Thanks -- fixed.
        
           | systemvoltage wrote:
           | Having worked in large manufacturing facilities that cost
           | billions, there is almost a comical and blatant tribalism
           | that kicks in between workers/teams simply because they are
           | located in different sites. The Chinese sites talk down on
           | Vietnamese factories. Texas factories gawk at the ones
           | located in Massachussetts. I think this happens in non-
           | manufacturing industries as well (Microsoft org chart
           | anyone?), but I've seen that the bonds between workers are
           | stronger when they get together and build something like a
           | giant aeroplane. Leadership has a hardtime navigating the
           | waters, especially if something critical (safety) has been
           | neglected. It is easy to look at this in union/non-union
           | differences, but it's not so simple. I would question the
           | leadership and the way they inspire people to build something
           | together. I suspect this is what's lacking at Boeing and once
           | the culture of not caring about quality kicks in, it is
           | difficult eradicate toxicity from this culture.
           | 
           | There is almost an obsession to find out if your BMW was
           | manufactured in South Africa or Germany, the latter being
           | desirable, on BMW enthusiast forums despite of being made
           | with exacting specifications and factory processes.
        
           | WalterBright wrote:
           | > Profit is the driving factor in their decision making.
           | 
           | No profit means no airplanes.
        
         | b-x wrote:
         | > [...] after all the 737 MAX _issues_.
         | 
         | I think using the word _issues_ here is diluting the facts. A
         | more accurate wording would use _disasters_ or _catastrophes_.
        
         | content_sesh wrote:
         | Boeing was my first job out of college (BS in Aero Eng but I
         | was hired as a software dev). I worked there for a few years in
         | both commercial aviation and defense projects. I've since moved
         | out of the aerospace industry entirely in favor of tech.
         | 
         | Boeing is a huge company and I saw just a small slice of it at
         | my time there. So with that caveat, in my opinion the root
         | cause of Boeing's problems are mismanagement. Mismanagement
         | flows down from the top of the organization and impacts
         | everything they do.
         | 
         | Here's just one example, off the top of my head: There is no
         | "psychological safety" in the workplace. I wasn't aware of this
         | term at the time, but it's crystal-clear with the benefit of
         | hindsight and a decade more working experience. There is no
         | good way to fix irrational or ineffective processes; or at
         | least, I've never seen it happen. What I did see, several
         | times, is course changes and "new approaches" that result in
         | whole departments (dozens of engineers) getting pink slips. So
         | as a result there was inherent mistrust of change, because
         | "we're going to stop doing X and start doing Y" meant "everyone
         | currently doing X needs to scramble to find a new project
         | before the hammer drops". It is impossible to build a culture
         | of continuous improvement and engineering excellence in such an
         | environment.
         | 
         | Again, this is just one example. There's probably hundreds,
         | thousands, more. It's mismanagement all the way down.
        
           | ricardobayes wrote:
           | What is psychological safety? I don't think I have ever
           | worked at a place that had that.
        
             | aYsY4dDQ2NrcNzA wrote:
             | https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychological_safety
             | 
             | https://web.mit.edu/curhan/www/docs/Articles/15341_Readings
             | /...
        
         | Swenrekcah wrote:
         | I don't think it's any of the above. I think management
         | shortsightedness and greed are the primary culprits. Safety and
         | engineering excellence took the back seat for quarterly
         | profits.
        
       | jacksonkmarley wrote:
       | My (non-expert) interpretation of this situation:
       | 
       | After 2 planes down, hundreds of deaths and a massive
       | international backlash and shitstorm, Boeing tries to get a
       | business-as-usual, rubber-stamp, paper-over-the-cracks, fastrack
       | approval, and rightly gets shot down.
       | 
       | > Is this just the FAA getting tough because of all the scrutiny?
       | 
       | Hopefully this is just the FAA doing its job from now on.
        
         | colechristensen wrote:
         | My interpretation of the situation:
         | 
         | Business as usual being propped up as news because the topic
         | gets attention recently.
         | 
         | You test to find issues. You expect a certain sort and number
         | of issues to come up in testing. Sometimes an issue comes up
         | outside of expectations so you reset your expectations and test
         | more.
         | 
         | The FAA _has_ been doing its job and flying is incredibly safe.
         | There were lapses, those things are being addressed.
         | 
         | >Boeing tries to get a business-as-usual, rubber-stamp, paper-
         | over-the-cracks, fastrack approval
         | 
         | This is way over the top. It's a fun narrative because building
         | up an enemy is a good passtime and it gets reader attention.
         | 
         | When you don't know anything about a topic, be hesitant to
         | share your theories about how everybody is doing it wrong.
        
           | metalforever wrote:
           | No it's not. They've been doing Mickey Mouse engineering and
           | are rightfully getting slapped the fuck down
        
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