[HN Gopher] Classified Ministry of Defence documents found at bu...
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Classified Ministry of Defence documents found at bus stop
Author : georgecmu
Score : 84 points
Date : 2021-06-27 14:27 UTC (8 hours ago)
(HTM) web link (www.bbc.com)
(TXT) w3m dump (www.bbc.com)
| rozab wrote:
| I am so lost in this stuff.
|
| What was the deal with the story on HN a few days ago before the
| story dropped, saying that AIS showed a RN warship off Crimea and
| people were claiming live cams and direct observation showed it
| still in port in Odessa? Was this the Defender? It's very hard to
| Google for now. The date filtering tools aren't good enough. The
| lines between fiction and real life are blurred.
|
| Sure feels like the UK are engaging in firehose disinfo, as
| Russia has practiced for years. It seems impossible to understand
| what's really going on, and I fear even historians won't be able
| to figure it out because 10 years from now these events will be
| buried by even crazier happenings. Strange times.
| russianGuy83829 wrote:
| you meant this article.
| https://news.usni.org/2021/06/21/positions-of-two-nato-ships...
| strogonoff wrote:
| Your comment adds unwarranted mystery.
|
| Here is a report[0] from the ship during the time of events. As
| the leaked documentation shows, the encounter had been
| anticipated, so I guess it was a tough call to put a journalist
| on board.
|
| The reason MoD denies the "warning shots were fired" phrasing
| (and BBC puts it in quotes) is most likely to defuse the
| sizzling situation. Either UK frames the events as "warning
| shots were fired by Russian navy in Ukranian waters at a
| British ship" and has a conflict that requires following up, or
| it denies Russian framing of events (leaving it open to
| interpretation--say Russian navy suffered equipment malfunction
| that resulted in ammunition ending up in Ukranian waters some
| distance away from the British ship, stuff happens) leaving it
| for _them_ to follow up--which Russia can't really do, as no
| major country accepts its jurisdiction over Crimea (even China
| abstained on the relevant UN vote).
|
| [0] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MLPYAKL-f2M
| Uptrenda wrote:
| The member of the public upon realizing the sensitive nature of
| the documents immediately thought: 'hmmm, better contact the BBC
| and tell the whole world about it.' Yikes
| ciabattabread wrote:
| > A member of the public, who wishes to remain anonymous
|
| If you had the option to remain anonymous by going to a trusted
| media organization that has a reputation of balancing the
| public right-to-know with national security concerns, and avoid
| getting Richard Jewell treatment, you'd take it.
| TazeTSchnitzel wrote:
| Can't help but think of Daniel Ellsberg and the garbage bag that
| blew away in a storm.
| hughrr wrote:
| Makes a change. It's usually at a station or in a taxi.
| tclancy wrote:
| Or on a train. Or is that just guns?
| hughrr wrote:
| No they use the guns to shoot people at stations
| ineedasername wrote:
| Sounds like a dead-drop gone wrong.
| secfirstmd wrote:
| That's what I had thought alright. UK Eyes Only documents being
| printer, leaving a building and being left somewhere. Just
| sounds so odd.
| LatteLazy wrote:
| That's what I thought, but then why not just a USB with some
| basic encryption?
| secfirstmd wrote:
| Depends on how it was acquired. USB more traceable in some
| ways.
| LatteLazy wrote:
| I'm a brit. This pointless bs is exactly why I wish we'd cut
| "defense" spending. Defense means picking a fight with Russia to
| pretend Crimea is part of Ukraine!? No thanks.
| ipaddr wrote:
| Crimea is part of the Ukraine. Just because it was invaded
| because Russia needs that strategic port doesn't mean it is not
| worth standing up to Russia. Don't you think the UK is better
| off protecting Ukraine, making friends and trying to prevent
| Russia from taking over another country or all of the Ukraine.
| Wouldn't a strong Ukraine make the UK safer?
| LatteLazy wrote:
| I think we'd be better making friends with Russia. I think
| making friends with anyone means making friends (trade,
| support, cultural exchange etc), not sending warships. If we
| provoke an incident and Ukraine pays the price I doubt
| they'll thank us.
|
| I also think crimea is a part of Russia. It was for 100s of
| years, most people who live there are Russian. The fact some
| drunken communist gave it away to an ally holds very little
| water compared to those factors.
|
| I also think that the cold War should have ended in the
| 1990s. Our insistence on continuing it is what created the
| Putin we see today. He used to be an internationalist. But
| the need for an enemy is too deep for us right now.
| ipaddr wrote:
| Being a friends means having their back when someone bigger
| attacks them. When times are good everyone wants to be your
| friend but a true will be there when you are down.
|
| Picking Russia as a friend because they are stronger makes
| you weaker.
| pessimizer wrote:
| Crimea is currently populated by 70% ethnic Russians, who
| have been the majority for at least 50 years, and the
| plurality for at least 120 years. The reason it became part
| of Ukraine is because the USSR transferred it there from
| Russia in 1954.
|
| The only benefit to Europe and the US of complaining about
| the annexation is to put pressure on Russia. Nobody wants the
| ethnic cleansing that would occur if Russia actually
| retreated from Crimea (and any Russian politician, dictator
| or not, who allowed that to happen would lose their political
| career and maybe their life.) If it weren't for the
| horrifying virulence of Ukrainian nationalism, I'm sure a lot
| of the ethnically Russian residents would be glad to be
| separate from Russia.
|
| Do you seriously think that if the residents of Crimea freely
| voted, they would vote for a Russian retreat?
| forgetfulness wrote:
| I'm sure the Russians could say the same thing about the UK
| and Gibraltar, down to the support of the local population to
| being a UK territory.
| ipaddr wrote:
| Of course. As a Russian I would want Russia to be right. As
| a Gibraltarian I would take their side.
|
| The original poster was a Brit and as a Brit taking
| Russia's side doesn't line up with long term strategic
| goals.
| robertlagrant wrote:
| > "Following the transition from defence engagement activity to
| operational activity, it is highly likely that RFN (Russian navy)
| and VKS (Russian air force) interactions will become more
| frequent and assertive," one presentation warned.
|
| Things I would leak if I wanted more budget.
| SheinhardtWigCo wrote:
| Tinfoil hat time: it sounds like these "found" documents mostly
| contain information that MoD would want to leak.
|
| > "We have a strong, legitimate narrative", they said, noting
| that the presence of the embedded journalists (from the BBC and
| Daily Mail) on board the destroyer "provides an option for
| independent verification of HMS Defender's action".
|
| As does this leak, if you believe the provenance.
| azalemeth wrote:
| Quite. It's very cold-war-esque. It has a definite soupcon of
| publicity about it, and mostly supports the government's
| narrative about them vaguely being competent - we did pre-plan
| a trip to navigate around Crimea [a place where the British
| haven't traditionally had the best time!] and we also plan to
| keep a toe in the fort in Afghanistan -- allies be damned.
| Conveniently, it also comes as Borris has just lost a Tory safe
| seat, his philandering and "hopeless" health secretary has just
| been forced to resign, and people across the political spectrum
| are fed up with him.
|
| I am 99% sure Russia would rather have the leaks that highlight
| the crippling lack of ability in Britain's armed forces, caused
| by austerity, or a true impact assessment of Brexit. I also
| think it's very odd that the only papers leaked were these two:
| it's a strange thing to specifically print out these reports. I
| also think it's downright odd that they're _printed_ --- most
| high-level classified documents seem to exist on secure,
| airgapped, immobile computer systems.
| alksjdalkj wrote:
| > I also think it's downright odd that they're printed ---
| most high-level classified documents seem to exist on secure,
| airgapped, immobile computer systems.
|
| I think it's pretty common to print classified documents,
| since as you say the electronic copies normally live on
| specific airgapped networks. If you'll need them somewhere
| without access to that network (e.g. most meetings) printing
| is the easiest option.
| lostlogin wrote:
| > it also comes as Borris has just lost a Tory safe seat, his
| philandering and "hopeless" health secretary has just been
| forced to resign
|
| The UK population as a whole seem ok with how the COVID
| response has been managed (see below link).
|
| I know that an opinion on the UK COVID response doesn't
| necessarily have to match an opinion on the competency of the
| health secretary, and even that both can be independently
| rubbish.
|
| The below link does appear to show a disconnect between what
| was achieved and what people think was achieved.
|
| There seems a whiff of nationalistic exceptionalism about it.
| If the response was good, it would be weird to sack the
| architect.
|
| https://www.pewresearch.org/global/2021/06/23/people-in-
| adva...
| michaelt wrote:
| _> If the response was good, it would be weird to sack the
| architect._
|
| Calling Hancock hopeless is almost certainly a reference to
| text messages sent by the Prime Minister calling Hancock
| "totally fucking useless" and the fact jilted former
| adviser Dominic Cummings [2] said Hancock "should have been
| fired for at least, 15-20 things"
|
| Of course, you might very well ask if Hancock is so bad,
| why did the PM keep him as health secretary during perhaps
| the biggest health crisis of all time?
|
| It's possible Hancock isn't all that bad, and we're just
| seeing political manoeuvring here to make Hancock take the
| blame for the lack of PPE, the failure to keep even a
| single new variant out of the country, the failure to
| protect care homes, the cheating to hit testing targets,
| the inept track-and-trace effort run by cronies, the
| insistence on keeping borders wide open and allowing
| foreign holidays, the dodgy supply contracts given out to
| friends and family, and so on.
|
| [1]
| https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2021/jun/16/cummings-
| te... [2] https://youtu.be/dpAwUaL7JcQ?t=27
| [deleted]
| [deleted]
| _trampeltier wrote:
| British have so many cameras everywhere .. wonder if they are
| useful for once :-)
| contingencies wrote:
| I'd wager that major intelligence agencies installed people
| within airline cleaning services to obtain exactly this sort of
| waylaid documentation with regular success (pre-COVID).
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(page generated 2021-06-27 23:00 UTC)