[HN Gopher] Why do recipe writers lie about how long it takes to...
___________________________________________________________________
Why do recipe writers lie about how long it takes to caramelize
onions? (2012)
Author : tosh
Score : 357 points
Date : 2021-06-25 16:24 UTC (2 days ago)
(HTM) web link (slate.com)
(TXT) w3m dump (slate.com)
| gorgoiler wrote:
| Curious not to see any mention of lye / baking soda / sodium
| bicarbonate. I think I learned this from either Good Eats or
| McGee or possibly both?
|
| When frying onions in vegetable oil it rapidly speeds up the time
| taken to get from cold raw onions to unctuous brown goopy onions.
|
| It isn't quite the same as genuine 45 minute onions but I think
| it's the same chemistry, at least. It is also a risky shortcut
| only to be used when needed. More than a tiny pinch will
| drastically affect the taste.
| seanwilson wrote:
| There just isn't a culture around cooking (non-professional
| setting anyway) of doing experiments to validate your claims so
| myths, inaccuracies and just-so stories are rampant, even when
| experiments are very cheap and practical to do.
|
| I'm not sure how you change this. I find it really grating how
| much contradictory cooking advice there is and how complex some
| recipes are without justifying the extra steps make any
| difference.
|
| If you're making bread for example, some recipes will say don't
| add the salt with the yeast because it will make it rise slower
| and some recipes say it won't make a difference - it should be
| simple to confirm this with an experiment in a day to settle it
| for good and move on but for whatever reason this doesn't happen.
|
| Is there a good reason why you couldn't settle how to caramelise
| onions with a few experiments?
| DantesKite wrote:
| I feel the same exact way.
|
| I wish there was a website or app that solved this issue once
| and for all.
|
| There's obviously variation with cooking and no humans taste
| are exactly the same, but they're pretty damn similar enough to
| narrow the variation considerably.
|
| Instead, you get thousands of blog posts that are inaccurate
| with 1,200 star ratings here and there, spread across an
| infinite, desolate web landscape.
|
| It's not right.
| nooorofe wrote:
| Usually salt is not added in the beginning when recipe has step
| of activating yeast. Then you don't drop pure salt into just
| activated yeast - kind of make sense.
| jasonwatkinspdx wrote:
| There are good experiment/evidence based writers out there,
| they're just mostly drowned out by all the noise.
|
| Harrold McGee
|
| J Kenji Lopez Alt
|
| Nathan Myhrvold (yes, the one and same)
|
| As some of the other comments explain, the problem is a lot of
| authors use the word "caramelize" when what they actually mean
| is "brown." This happens on restaurant menus too, as a sort of
| term inflation thing to try to make things sound more dramatic
| than they are.
| bborud wrote:
| Modernist Cuisine and Modernist Bread by Nathan Myhrvold.
|
| And pretty much any formal chef education.
| seanwilson wrote:
| I'm not familiar with formal chef education, how much more
| experiment based is it compared to amateur cooking? With the
| latter, it's rare you'll find an online discussion about
| cooking that's settled with an authoritative reference, it's
| mostly people sharing anecdotes and their favourite recipes.
| bombcar wrote:
| Formal chef education has the student in the kitchen with
| the instructors - and I suspect often the book is ignored
| until the basic principles and methods are known (at which
| point the book doesn't need to detail them).
| bborud wrote:
| The most basic formal chef education in Norway is two
| years mostly of theory (yes, books) and then two years
| working in a kitchen. If you have ambitions you are now
| barely above the busboy on the pecking order.
|
| You can get the same accreditation if you are able to
| document 5 years of relevant experience and are able to
| pass the written exams.
| bborud wrote:
| But most of those discussions are between people who
| haven't got a culinary education.
|
| My point was that there are chef educations where you
| actually learn things that most amateurs only guess at.
| But, as Myhrvold's work shows, there are plenty of things
| that are not necessarily at the level of scientific
| certainty.
| britch wrote:
| I agree with your point that there is right answer for a lot of
| these things. I'd love to read a blog testing the contradictory
| cooking claims ;)
|
| My suspicion is that most of the contradictory advice is for
| things that don't matter that much.
|
| I'm not sure about salt in the dough. I'm sure I've done it
| both ways, and both times it was fine so I don't care that
| much.
|
| When making a stew: meat-before-onions or onions-before-meat? I
| think the "right" answer is meat-before-onions, but if you do
| it the other way... it's not going to really affect things too
| much.
|
| Things that really matter have mostly universal advice
| (preheating the pan, salting pasta water, etc.)
| ska wrote:
| The answer for typical French/American (broadly) stews is
| meat before onions to get a good sear, and a good fond, to
| base your stock on. Doing this properly (including not
| crowding) will always give better results. You should really
| remove it before the onions also, but that's an extra step.
|
| I thing with a lot of things like this the better technique
| is known, but often more work and the lesser technique isn't
| a disaster so people use them. Also doing _all_ the steps
| "right" will give you a better result , but missing sometimes
| even one will leave you about where you would have been not
| bothering.
|
| And some of these things compound. In your example, there is
| literally no way to really recover from an improper sear in a
| beef stew that calls for it; it's probably the number one
| cause of mediocre versions of these.
|
| (I'm trying to be careful here because there are equally
| valid was of doing this - an American stew using Moroccan
| techniques, or vice versa probably won't work as well)
| [deleted]
| seanwilson wrote:
| > My suspicion is that most of the contradictory advice is
| for things that don't matter that much.
|
| I agree, I think game changing advice would get noticed and
| passed around quickly, and for things that make no difference
| or minor difference you'll see lots of people sharing
| contradictory anecdotes.
| papandada wrote:
| Also holds true for many other things, e.g. parenting.
| PhDuck wrote:
| Agree with you for most recipe books and websites, however a
| few rise above the crowds. Serious eats, Cook's Illustrated,
| and most likely more.
| bprieto wrote:
| There is a french guy that has a YouTube channel in which he
| does exactly that: he learns to cook a kind of food by doing
| experiments. He's also a maker that builds some of his tools.
| And he is funny and entertaining.
|
| https://www.youtube.com/user/FrenchGuyCooking
| saiojd wrote:
| Although I am not good at making bread by any means, I've tried
| salt/no-salt with pizza dough and it clearly made a difference.
| jvvw wrote:
| It's not formal experiments as such but I quite like Felicity
| Cloake's How to Cook the Perfect ... column:
| https://www.theguardian.com/food/series/how-to-cook-the-perf...
| which has both a home cook feel and a 'let's go and test this
| out' feel about it.
| mercury_craze wrote:
| That series has always been a joy to read. Whenever I want to
| know what the established wisdom in making a classic dish are
| I'll check to see whether she's covered it first and use that
| as my starting point.
| vinceguidry wrote:
| The Aha moment for me came when I was watching Chef Jean-Pierre's
| video on the topic. His terminology is unfortunate, he uses
| 'caramelizing' to refer to what we call 'browning', but otherwise
| he's taught me more about cooking than any other YouTube chef.
|
| There are two steps to caramelizing onions. Cooking, and
| browning. Cooking, that is, making them soft enough to eat, is
| what takes the most time. Most of the time when you use onions in
| a dish, they're browned first, then they finish cooking with the
| rest of the dish.
|
| But when you make caramelized onions by themselves, if you don't
| spend the time to cook them properly, they won't have the right
| texture, even if the flavor is close. Since texture carries
| flavor, browned onions just don't taste the same as caramelized
| ones.
|
| So Jean-Pierre separates the process of making caramelized onions
| into two steps. Cook the onions by leaving them tightly covered
| in a pot on very low heat, they poach in their own liquid. Leave
| them at least 45 minutes but since the heat is so low it's almost
| like sous vide where you can cook them as long as you need.
|
| Finally, you brown them in a skillet to desired color.
|
| Video for the interested:
| https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5o-u7zjlShQ
| kstenerud wrote:
| Here's a tip:
|
| Shred a whole bag worth of onions with a mandolin and carmelize
| in a slow cooker overnight (10h on low). You don't need
| anything fancy; the $5 slow cooker gathering dust at your local
| Goodwill is fine. Separate the juice with a strainer and store
| separately for soup or whatever. Put the onions into bags and
| freeze them. Now whenever you need carmelized onions, thaw a
| bag of them in the microwave or a tub of hot water, brown in a
| skillet (5-10 mins) and you're done.
| ska wrote:
| I've done something similar with better results in a Dutch
| oven inside a low oven, so as long as your over can really
| hold a low temp this is an option if you don't have a slow
| cooker.
|
| You are also better off cutting pole to pole in small wedges
| but mandoline is faster. Something about the amount of cell
| wall damage, I forget why.
| ironSkillet wrote:
| I second Chef Jean-Pierre's YouTube channel. His humble nature,
| humor and enthusiasm make the videos very entertaining and
| educational. All substance, no fancy editing or hype.
| uranusjr wrote:
| Home cook tip: You can approximate the cooking step by
| microwaving the onions. Not the same, of course, but takes a
| lot shorter.
| ineedasername wrote:
| That is what I do. About 8 minutes covered in the microwave,
| not packed too tightly. It still takes a little over 10
| minutes to caramelize, pan preheated and ready for them, but
| it cuts down a little bit and I can still do other prep work
| at the same time.
|
| Also important to note that about 70% of the onion goes away.
| If you start with 2 cups of chopped onions, what you end up
| with can fit into a little over half a cup. Onions are mostly
| liquid, and that gets cooked off in the process. If I'm
| caramelizing onions for burgers, a single medium onion will
| yield enough for a generous portion on two burgers with maybe
| a little left over. Pre-cooked onion size is a lie.
| astrange wrote:
| I prefer to save time cooking by just eating all the ingredients.
| lancebeet wrote:
| I've had the same experience with baked potatoes. Every recipe
| I've read says something like 45 minutes and I've never managed
| to bake a potato in less than ~90 minutes.
| dlgeek wrote:
| How hot are you going? I find it takes ~90 minutes at 350 but
| only about 45 at 450.
| Symbiote wrote:
| You can speed this up significantly if you have a microwave.
| Zap them for a few minutes, then finish in the oven to brown
| the skin.
| dexwiz wrote:
| I don't think recipes lie, I think most people don't understand
| what caramelizing is versus softening. Caramelizing is great for
| onion focused recipes like French Onion Soup and creates a rich
| flavor profile. But for everyday recipes using Mirepoix-like
| flavor base, 10 minutes is enough to cook out the water, lessen
| the Sulfur flavors, and soften the onions. A stock concentrate
| can help boost the flavor profile without needing an hour.
| Softening is enough for most people, and recipes are starting to
| use that term over Caramelizing.
| eesmith wrote:
| Here are three quoted recipe instructions:
|
| ] "Add the onions to the skillet and increase the heat to
| medium-high. Cook until they begin to turn dark brown and
| somewhat soft, about 5 minutes."
|
| ] "Stir and fry for about 5 minutes or until the onions turn a
| medium-brown colour."
|
| ] "Add the onion and cook for 8 to 10 minutes, stirring
| occasionally, until golden brown."
|
| How do you get "dark", "medium-brown", or "golden brown" in
| under 10 minutes, and without caramelizing?
| dragonwriter wrote:
| > How do you get "dark", "medium-brown", or "golden brown" in
| under 10 minutes, and without caramelizing?
|
| Thin cuts, a decent pan, avoid sweet onions (which take
| longer to brown), and use a little higher heat than the
| center of the medium-high range, IME.
|
| Browning is _much_ quicker than caramelizing (see, e.g.,
| https://marxfood.com/caramelizing-onions-vs-browning-onions/
| which gives 15 minutes for browning, and an hour for
| caramelizing; you can push browning more easily.)
|
| (The quoted 5 to brown + 5 to caramelize in TFA is bullshit,
| though, no question, but most of the quotes in the article
| _aren't_ about caramelizing, they are about browning - often
| lightly browning - in a fairly reasonable time for the level
| of browning described.)
| cout wrote:
| Sweet onions take longer to brown?
|
| Whatever kind of sweet onions we get locally start to turn
| brown after 7 minutes on medium high (keeping the skillet
| around 350F).
| dragonwriter wrote:
| > Sweet onions take longer to brown?
|
| I've read that the lack of sulfur compounds has that
| effect, and my subjective impression is consistent with
| that, but I haven't done structured trials. (And I don't
| prefer sweet onions in those applications, in any case.)
| sammalloy wrote:
| This makes a lot of sense and goes a long way to explain
| the time discrepancies. It's sad that I had to scroll
| down the page and find these comments buried at the
| bottom when they should be at the top.
| SamBam wrote:
| Seriously? Onions easily brown in 10 minutes.
|
| They're not caramelized, but the vast majority of recipes
| _mean_ browned when they say "10 minutes."
|
| Very few recipes actually want caramelized onions. For
| instance, almost zero Italian recipes involve caramelizing.
| nmcveity wrote:
| I don't think the Madhur Jaffrey recipe actually calls for
| caramelisation but I don't have the original in front of me.
| It would also use red onions and be done in a pan that is
| more like to a wok than to a western pan, iirc.
| eesmith wrote:
| The quote is on page 52: https://archive.org/details/madhur
| jaffreysin0000jaff_r5e9/pa... .
|
| > Heat the oil in a wide, heavy pot over a medium-high
| flame. Brown the meat cubes in several batches and set to
| one side. Put the cardamom, bay leaves, cloves,
| peppercorns, and cinnamon into the same hot oil. Stir once
| and wait until the cloves swell and the bay leaves begin to
| take on colour. This just takes a few seconds. Now put in
| the onions. Stir and fry for about 5 minutes or until the
| onions turn a medium-brown colour.
|
| For some other quotes along the same lines: page 51 at http
| s://archive.org/details/madhurjaffreysin0000jaff_r5e9/pa...
| :
|
| > Heat the oil in a wide, flameproof casserole-type pot
| over a medium-high flame. ... Put the onions and garlic
| into the same pot and turn the heat down to medium. Stir
| and fry the onion-garlic mixture for about 10 minutes or
| until it has browned.
|
| (The introductory text on page 50 is clear this is supposed
| to be a "heavy pot", not something thin like a wok.)
|
| Page 46 at https://archive.org/details/madhurjaffreysin0000
| jaff_r5e9/pa... :
|
| > Heat the oil in a wide, heavy saucepan over a medium-high
| flame. When hot, put in the finely sliced onions. Stir and
| fry for 10-12 minutes or until the onions turn a nice,
| reddish-brown colour. You may have to turn the heat down
| somewhat towards the end of this cooking period.
|
| Page 55 at https://archive.org/details/madhurjaffreysin0000
| jaff_r5e9/pa... :
|
| > Heat the oil in a large, wide, and preferably non-stick
| pot over a medium-high flame. When hot, put in the onions.
| Stir and fry for about 12 minutes or until the onions are a
| reddish-brown color.
| bifftastic wrote:
| I don't believe this refers to caramelized onions, which
| are sweet and slowly cooked. It refers to onions fried at
| a high temperature until brown or turning brown. This can
| certainly be done in under 10 minutes and is common in
| Indian cookery.
|
| I cook a Madhur Jaffrey recipe or two most weeks.
| Blikkentrekker wrote:
| Perhaps they have higher stoves.
|
| I would not say caramelized, but I certainly get significant
| browning in less than 3 minutes in a wok on a 7 500 W work
| burner.
|
| Most ordinary stoves are about 2 000 W, but apparently
| professional stoves go to 4 000 W, and the professional "jet
| engine" work burners in many restaurants achieve 20 000 W.
| ghaff wrote:
| I have a fairly high output gas range and my observation is
| that a lot of recipes overstate the settings I want to use.
|
| On the flip side, to your point, the large burner on my
| stove is fine for a wok (I'd have to look up the output)
| but it's a lot more than a typical electric stove would put
| out (and hears up the sides)--which is why America's Test
| Kitchen recommends people use a skillet rather than a wok.
| bombcar wrote:
| And the pan matters too - a wok may heat up faster on the
| same burner compared to cast iron.
|
| And "professional kitchens" often have everything at
| temperature already - the wok was just used moments before
| so there's no preheating.
| madengr wrote:
| I recently put in a 36 kW (125 kBTU/hr) wok burner,
| outdoors of course. It's insane how hot it gets.
|
| https://youtu.be/O-Y5XJwBPvw
| yokaze wrote:
| Here you go: https://www.thespruceeats.com/how-to-brown-
| onions-913397
|
| There is browning and there is caramelisation.
| watwut wrote:
| They get brown within 10 minutes. I never cared about
| caramelization, but onions can change color rather fast.
| TX0098812 wrote:
| If we just want them to change color we can do that a
| whole lot faster than 10 minutes. But you wouldn't like
| the taste. :)
| austhrow743 wrote:
| Sure but they get brown in a tasty way in ten minutes.
| TX0098812 wrote:
| Browning, unless we're talking about burning onions, is
| caramelisation. Just a small amount.
| dragonwriter wrote:
| > Browning, unless we're talking about burning onions, is
| caramelisation
|
| No, its not. Heck, even "caramelizing" onions mostly
| _isn't_ caramelization, its Maillard-reaction browning
| combined with slower cooking so that the cooking is more
| complete, retaining less of the firm texture.
|
| https://www.thespruceeats.com/how-to-brown-onions-913397
| moistly wrote:
| Add a pinch of baking soda.
|
| First DDG link: https://www.onions-usa.org/onionista/faster-
| caramelized-onio...
| eesmith wrote:
| So it's a lie of omission?
|
| Those quoted recipes don't mention baking soda.
| moistly wrote:
| The quoted recipes were written by people who don't know
| what they are doing.
| eesmith wrote:
| Ah, you're making a Hanlon's razor sort of argument.
|
| In which case the layer of deceit is the conceit that the
| editors of popular cookbooks can spot and will correct
| obvious BS.
| TX0098812 wrote:
| The "layer of deceit" is that they claim you can do
| something in a particular way within a certain time frame
| and that this is not actually possible. And cook books
| aren't written by editors.
| bombcar wrote:
| But editors are likely to be the type to change "brown"
| to "caramelize" because it sounds more upscale.
| eesmith wrote:
| I'm responding to moistly's comment, not the essay.
|
| Certainly editors don't write cookbooks. But they decide
| what to publish. I personally think the essay is correct.
| My followup on this thread is that even if the essay
| isn't correct, there are still other "layers of deceit"
| to consider.
|
| The top-level of this thread was dexwiz's statement "I
| don't think recipes lie". I pointed out how that
| statement doesn't jibe with the presented evidence.
| moistly followed up that it wasn't a lie, but ignorance
| "by people who don't know what they are doing."
|
| My observation is that if we accept that the authors
| aren't lying, but are simply incompetent, then a
| different layer of deceit arises - the belief that
| cooking columns in national newspapers and cookbooks by
| reputable publishing companies will have enough oversight
| and not publish recipes 'by people who don't know what
| they are doing'.
| resoluteteeth wrote:
| Baking soda speeds up the process but it also affects the
| texture in a way that isn't really pleasant unless you're
| pureeing the onions for soup.
| xeromal wrote:
| https://www.seriouseats.com/how-to-caramelize-onions-
| classic
|
| These guys say baking soda turns it into sludge.
| TX0098812 wrote:
| 1. I've seen lots of recipes that mention if describe
| caramelization and not one has mentioned baking soda so
| it's besides the point.
|
| 2. None of them will ever list baking soda because it will
| affect the taste in a horrible way.
| Broken_Hippo wrote:
| It isn't really worth it unless you are making a good
| amount. It is adjusting PH, which might get you color
| faster, but it is pretty easy to get too much in and have
| your onions taste of chemicals. The linked article went
| with 1/8 teaspoon (.625 grams) per pound (about 450g) of
| onion. It makes it really easy to get too much, especially
| when you are just doing 1 or two onions.
|
| Unless the dish relies on the flavor of caramelized onions,
| I just go with lesser cooking time.
| lmilcin wrote:
| After reading a lot of recipes and watching pictures/videos from
| same authors I learned that the description of browning is very
| subjective to the author.
|
| Very few recipes actually required onions browned through (as in
| entire volume) and if they actually do, the author will for sure
| mention it. Onions that are completely browned have very
| overpowering sweet aroma that is undesirable in most recipes
| except the ones that are built around it (like, famously, french
| onion soup or various caramelized onion dips).
|
| Vast majority of recipes actually require the onion to just get
| little hints of being gold in places or some gold just on the
| surface of it. That is enough to add flavor that will distribute
| once you add some liquid to it.
|
| From my experience most cooking book authors seem to be testing
| their recipes. Many times I have been frustrated by being unable
| to get the desired effect only to find some missing technique
| that the author very likely did not think important enough to
| mention or maybe difference in ingredients or measuring
| methodology.
|
| I have learned to prefer books that describe the methodology used
| by the author (for example how they measure things, how they make
| broth if they use one in recipe, etc.)
|
| I have also learned to search the book for a recipe that I
| already know and figure out if it agrees with my experience and
| if I would be able to make the recipe from that description.
|
| Another important point is that usually you need to understand
| particular cuisine from which the recipe comes to be able to make
| it faithfully. Every cuisine is a little small system of thinking
| about how to choose, process and combine ingredients. Recipes
| tend to be silent on a lot of stuff that is completely trivial to
| natives of particular cuisine.
|
| For example, I have been practicing Italian, Indian and Thai
| cuisines for the past 20 years. I can make Italian, Indian or
| Thai dish on a pinch from whatever I can find in my fridge and
| pantry but I still can't make convincing Creole dish even if I
| tried.
|
| (edit)
|
| If you are asking for best books for beginners, I suggest to skip
| books and rather research the recipe on Youtube. Watch couple of
| people doing the same thing -- this is going to provide much more
| valuable information than you could ever read in a book. This
| mostly because having visual reference of how it actually looked
| when the person was cooking it will give you immediate feedback
| when you are getting something wrong.
|
| It is still my preferred way of learning new kinds of dishes.
| MegaDeKay wrote:
| It wouldn't hurt for all recipes to convert over to grams
| except perhaps for very small measures. "Four cups of flour"
| can have a substantial swing by weight, making a real
| difference in something like a loaf of bread. If you aren't an
| experienced baker or never made a particular loaf before, it is
| really hard to know by feel if the hydration is right or wrong.
| Every kitchen should have a scale so cookbook authors can count
| on this. And please please please don't use ounces instead:
| they are too coarse, and they are inexcusably used for both
| weight and volume.
|
| I'd also like the phrase "medium heat" outlawed but I know that
| is a bridge too far. My stove has four burners in a ridiculous
| range of heat output. Each has a "medium" setting. My pancakes
| are much better off now that I've got an IR thermometer and can
| keep the pan around 350 - 375F.
| jorvi wrote:
| What would be interesting is if stove burners would be
| required to have their watt-equivaleng heat output as
| markers, instead of 1-2-3-4-5. That way would know that 3 on
| the middle burner is equal to 5 on the small burner, and
| recipe books can now mention you need ~800 watts of heat
| output, which is neatly usuable for induction and coil
| cooking as well.
| ryandrake wrote:
| Thank you! It's one of the things mildly infuriating about
| learning to cook, especially from recipes. They don't
| quantify everything. What's "high heat" exactly? What is a
| "pinch" of salt, and how does it differ from a "dash" of
| it? Are these volume measurements or weights? When it says
| "sprinkle some X" how much should you sprinkle? What's a
| spoonful? Are they referring to a US teaspoon (approx.
| 5mL), or somebody else's spoon? How much oil is in a
| "drizzle"? What about a "drop"? Are we talking about the
| metric drop (0.05mL)? How many grams is a "medium potato"?
| Or an onion? I can get onions in sizes that vary by 3X, but
| the recipe just says chop up an onion. Maddening!
| ThrustVectoring wrote:
| The answer is that a recipe is a seed idea for a creative
| process, not a fixed set of steps that you have to follow
| exactly or ruin the magic.
|
| > What's "high heat" exactly?
|
| A suggestion that you want caramelization and/or browning
|
| > What is a "pinch" of salt, and how does it differ from
| a "dash" of it?
|
| Doesn't matter, you should salt to taste anyhow, this is
| merely a reminder to do so
|
| > When it says "sprinkle some X" how much should you
| sprinkle?
|
| Smell it or taste a little and guess
|
| > How much oil is in a "drizzle"?
|
| Enough to tell that it's there, not enough to soak it
| through
|
| > How many grams is a "medium potato"? Or an onion?
|
| Doesn't matter, you'll wind up with a range of vegetable
| quantities and they all roughly work, just end up in
| slightly different places.
| a1369209993 wrote:
| > a recipe is a seed idea for a creative process, not a
| fixed set of steps that you have to follow exactly or
| ruin the magic.
|
| No! It is not a creative[0] process! I am attempting to
| make food, to eat, not a bloody painting, and pretentions
| of artistry are, as ryandrake just said, _infuriating_
| [1].
|
| 0: I assume you mean "involving creativity", not "that
| has the effect of creating something", since the latter
| applies equally well to, for example, working in a
| assembly line.
|
| Edit: 1: case in point, apparently.
| YeGoblynQueenne wrote:
| I think you're right to be infuriated and the OP should
| not have complicated things that much. If you are simply
| attempting to make food to eat, then you can very easily
| do so. If what you want to eat can be eaten raw, eat it
| raw. If not, boil it.
|
| Boiling may need a bit of experimentation to get right
| for some foods, but in general you need to have a pot big
| enough to take the full amnount of food, a sufficient
| quantity of clean, potable water to fill the pot until
| it's two cm over the food once the food is in the pot,
| and a sufficiently powerful source of heat to bring the
| water and the food to a temperarture of 100 degrees
| Celsius within a period of time of no more than 10
| minutes. Once you have those things, the pot, the water,
| and the source of heat, put the food in the pot, add
| water to fill the pot to two cm over the food, put the
| pot on the heat source and turn the heat source on. At
| this point it would probably be useful to have a
| thermometer so you can directly measure the temperature
| of the water, but you can usually observe that the water
| in the pot is vaporising and confirm that it is at
| boiling point. Leave the food to cook until all the water
| in the pot has evaporated, but not more than that or the
| food will burn. Then eat the food. Remember to turn the
| heat source off before eating! You may also want to
| consult a set of instructions concerning how to clean the
| pot once it's used.
|
| There may be variations of the procedure, for example if
| you have a very big amount of food you may want to adjust
| the levels of water, but that is something you can
| experiment with. In any case, if you can master this
| technique (but don't be discouraged if you can't) then
| you will always have a way to make food to eat that is,
| indeed, not a bloody painting.
| [deleted]
| akiselev wrote:
| Quantifying any of those values would be completely
| pointless.
|
| If you really want to know, "officially" a pinch of salt
| is ~0.35g and a dash is ~0.7g. Accurately measuring
| quantities that small is a _trained skill_ using
| specialized equipment. Anything you can buy on Amazon for
| under $1,000 would get you +-100mg when used correctly at
| best - used in a kitchen with a 50g measuring spoon for
| 0.5g of salt you 'd be lucky to get +- 1000 mg.
| bombcar wrote:
| Medium heat is the worst - and having at least some
| references for what temperature you're looking for would help
| tremendously.
|
| I'm surprised oven manufacturers don't sell cookbooks
| designed and tested on their actual ovens.
| cratermoon wrote:
| Ovens used to come with pamphlets of recipes. Microwave
| ovens, too.
| bombcar wrote:
| The original ones are amazing - put the venison in the
| microwave on high for 40 minutes.
| bertr4nd wrote:
| I agree so much about "medium heat" or really any subjective
| measure of heat. When I was learning to cook I smoked up my
| apartment _so many times_ before I learned that what recipe
| authors called "high heat" was really about 50% up my range's
| dial, and anything above that was mostly suitable for boiling
| water.
| ThrustVectoring wrote:
| Bread sure, bust out the scales, but most recipes don't
| actually need anything more than a vague outline of what
| you're trying to do. Tolerances on soup, for example, are
| _extremely_ wide, and any measurement is picking an arbitrary
| point in flavor space and declaring it "correct" when much
| of anything will do. And the idea of a "correct" way to do it
| encourages home cooks to treat the process like a black box
| where any misstep will ruin things, rather than having levers
| to adjust things to taste.
| bigyikes wrote:
| Learning to "let go" has really helped out my mediocre
| cooking skills. We really need a Bob Ross for the cooking
| world; someone to help us embrace all of our tasty little
| accidents.
| finnh wrote:
| Sam Sifton (mentioned in the article) has a "No Recipe
| Recipes" book that I just received for Father's Day.
| Perfectly suited to how I like to cook.
| 5etho wrote:
| >350 - 375F want gram, still use freedom units instead of
| celsius :)
| stephencanon wrote:
| Actual units are less important than the mass vs volume
| distinction.
| walshemj wrote:
| That did (from the UK) strike me as odd the way cups are
| used in us recipes.
|
| I use a conical cooks measure for speed now - for things
| like rice flour etc
| irrational wrote:
| I'd be happy with flour measurements being given in ounces
| or grams, my scale has both. I don't care as long as it is
| by some unit of weight instead of volume.
| ghaff wrote:
| That's probably true of most things that require working in the
| physical world. While I generally hate videos that take 5
| minutes to explain something that could be described in a
| paragraph, if you're a complete noob at something, a video that
| actually shows how to do something can be much more useful than
| descriptive text. (Sometimes if only to show some "tricky" step
| that you're likely going to have to practice a lot before
| you'll have a chance of getting it right.)
| bombcar wrote:
| Jump cuts can make a video quicker to watch but for things
| like recipes you often want to see exactly what's being done,
| so you can find out what went wrong if it didn't work.
| randywaterhouse wrote:
| Wholeheartedly agree about process vs. color-by-number
| recipes... For those who do like to read offline, I do
| recommend Ruhlman's "Twenty" [0]. It is well written and
| illustrated and provides a lens into process via carefully
| selected recipes.
|
| [0] Full title being ``Ruhlman's Twenty: 20 Techniques, 100
| Recipes, A Cook's Manifesto (The Science of Cooking, Culinary
| Books, Chef Cookbooks, Cooking Techniques Book)``
| ezoe wrote:
| > some missing technique that the author very likely did not
| think important enough to mention
|
| That reminds me a funny story I've read: A scientist failed to
| reproduce a paper which says "room temperature". They later
| successfully reproduced it in the freezer. The paper was from
| Russia.
| hallway_monitor wrote:
| Have you heard of room temperature? Welcome to the room. The
| room temperature room.
| bombcar wrote:
| Now I'm imagining a "standard room" in France held at the
| reference temperature (and which the meter long rod and the
| kilogram weight would be stored, of course).
| QuesnayJr wrote:
| This was a joke on the TV show Community, but it was
| exactly what you picture.
| klyrs wrote:
| I'm pretty sure that was a pop culture reference that
| nobody should be expected to get.
|
| Protip for GP: not all nerds watch shows about nerds.
| Standalone humor comments don't play well here to begin
| with.
| beckingz wrote:
| Of course, they haven't measured it since the 1960s
| because the body heat of a scientist going in to measure
| it changes it a little bit.
| M2Ys4U wrote:
| However or whenever they measure the prototype kilogram,
| it weighs[0] exactly 1kg by definition.
|
| [0] Well, not any more as the kilogram was redefined in
| 2019
| swiftcoder wrote:
| Does the length of the metre long rod not vary with
| temperature?
| abdullahkhalids wrote:
| It does. If you are using that rod to measure something
| else, or calibrate another rod, you are supposed to keep
| it at a given fixed temperature.
|
| Also, the standard of length was changed quite a while
| ago to one based on the definition of the second, and the
| speed of light.
|
| Edit: here are the latest standards https://en.wikipedia.
| org/wiki/2019_redefinition_of_the_SI_ba...
| hibbelig wrote:
| That's why they put the meter in the room.
| j605 wrote:
| AFAIR in physics and chemistry, room temperature is a short
| hand for 27degC in 1 atm.
|
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Standard_conditions_for_temper.
| ..
|
| After checking the reference, I feel like this was probably
| an assumption in all the textbooks that I had to follow in
| school. I suppose if each standards body had their own
| definition, it can get frustrating.
| adrian_b wrote:
| That is a convention mostly used in school problems,
| because manual computations with a temperature of 300
| kelvin are easier.
|
| In most technical contexts, room temperature means either
| 25 Celsius degrees or 20 Celsius degrees or more seldom
| various other temperatures between 15 Celsius degrees and
| 25 Celsius degrees.
| protomyth wrote:
| What books have you liked that met your criteria?
| mattkrause wrote:
| Julia Child's _Mastering the Art of French Cooking_ is great.
|
| It can't be your only cookbook---the amount of butter will
| literally kill you---and some of the recipes area bit dated
| (so many aspics!). However, the first part of the book
| focuses on techniques: chop an onion, roll an omelet, etc.
| The other part I like is how it demonstrates that you can
| "fork" a master recipe into many different dishes by swapping
| out sets of ingredients.
|
| A lot of other cookbooks disguise the fact that most recipes
| are variations on a theme, and understanding that makes it
| easier to improvise with whatever _you_ have left in the
| fridge.
| lmilcin wrote:
| Half a dozen bookshelves filled with just cookbooks, so
| apparently I am not too strict.
|
| I think that cooking from recipes is kind of catch-22.
| Recipes seem to be most useful to people who already are
| adept at cooking (in particular cuisine and in general) but
| when you don't know how to cook recipes seem to be
| practically only source of information.
|
| I think if you are already adept at cooking, know techniques,
| cuisine etc. then you will be able to judge the book on your
| own.
|
| For example, if you are just starting up with Italian
| cuisine, you will be thoroughly disappointed by The Silver
| Spoon.
|
| It is huge compendium of recipes, but it is very light on any
| kind of explanation of technique -- assuming the reader is
| already steeped in the Italian culture.
|
| On the other hand it is very useful to me as one of the books
| to look for a little bit of inspiration when I just want to
| throw in something new. Just going through the list of
| ingredients is usually enough for me to imagine the process
| and reading the description is more of a confirmation that I
| actually understand what is going on.
| cratermoon wrote:
| Mark Bittman's books _How to Cook Everything_ and _How to
| Cook Everything Vegetarian_
| dheera wrote:
| Also I think it hugely depends on your equipment.
|
| I have an induction stove and pans heat up almost instantly. I
| can easily get onions browned to the effect of the picture
| within 10 minutes on high heat.
|
| Here's the thing -- onions won't brown until a certain amount
| of their water content is evaporated. And what matters to
| evaporate water content is the amount of actual heat energy
| going into the food. Induction stoves are particularly
| excellent at shoving watts straight into your pan.
|
| I imagine many of the pros writing these recipes are using
| either a professional gas stoves (which are inefficient, but
| also very powerful) OR induction.
|
| If you use a household gas or electric stove, it's going to be
| a LOT slower, these just can't get that many watts into your
| pan.
| williamjackson wrote:
| You have eloquently elaborated on a truth I came to realize
| many years ago:
|
| Cooking well (from a recipe) is the art of having enough
| experience to know what unwritten assumptions the recipe author
| has made.
| manquer wrote:
| That is true for any concise set of directions.
|
| I mean if I give a developer some instructions, or read some
| from stackoverflow , they only work the best if I already
| somewhat familiar or expert knowledge to understand it.
|
| Cooking shouldn't be any different.
|
| Writing small user apps doesn't translate to building apps
| for millions of users, the same way cooking for your family
| doesn't translate to cooking in a restaurant or wedding, or
| to how McDonald's ( google of the cooking world ?) should
| cook.
| Zababa wrote:
| > McDonald's ( google of the cooking world ?) should cook
|
| Having worked at a cook at McDonald's, I don't know if I
| would call it "google of the cooking world". From my
| experience, McDonald's cooking is highly streamlined and
| focused on reproducing the same experience at some level
| (for example French McDonald's is not the same as American
| McDonald's but the fries and Big mac are still relatively
| the same).
| lmilcin wrote:
| You have put it very well. I am stealing this one:)
| ErrantX wrote:
| I'd add. Its also the art of understanding how to cook a
| recipe to your own palate.
|
| Or in other words; those assumptions are often very personal
| and therefore you need to develop and refine them for you as
| well.
| lebuffon wrote:
| Sounds like programming. :)
|
| ...having enough experience to know what unwritten
| assumptions the O/S author, language author, spec writer has
| made.
| base698 wrote:
| And having the knowledge to correct when something isn't as
| expected. Example would be vegetables leech more water and
| you need to reduce or increase heat to dry it out. Maybe the
| tomatoes aren't as acidic as usual in the soup and you need
| to add more acid.
| mcspiff wrote:
| To add to that excellent point, I've personally found while
| I'm learning it's easier to stick to a small number of
| authors for recipes. Since the same author will tend to make
| the same assumptions, you kind of perfect their style (or
| your take on it at least). Like all things cooking, ymmv of
| course.
| walshemj wrote:
| I find Felicity Cloake in the guardian a useful resource.
|
| She takes a recipe and try's out various different recipes
| to work out the best version eg CTM (Chiken Tika Masala)
| cogman10 wrote:
| Yup.
|
| Shows like "good eats" are also super useful for cooking IMO.
| Treating cooking like the chemistry experiments it is gives you
| excellent results without a lot of the faff.
|
| Didn't mean there aren't legitimate techniques, but rather it
| helps to know what those techniques are accomplishing so you
| know if you've messed up.
|
| Onion browning is a good example. In most recipes I've dealt
| with, onions are browned as a near first step and then further
| cooked in later steps. That strongly suggested the author isn't
| going for "fully brown" onions and rather just browned onions.
| Why? Because those onions don't stop cooking just because they
| are added to additional ingredients.
| wil421 wrote:
| Good Eats is perfect for telling you how it's supposed to be
| done and if possible a home cook friendly way to do it.
|
| Kenji Lopez's POV cooking vids are fantastic as well. Perfect
| for the home cook and he'll tell you how a restaurant does it
| and how a home cook should do it.
| jasode wrote:
| _> Why do recipe writers _lie_ about how long it takes to
| caramelize onions?_
|
| Because the author Tom Scocca didn't delve deeper into the _meta
| layer of language usage_ to see that many people are using the
| word _" caramelize"_ differently from him. They are not lying. To
| paraphrase Ludwig Wittgenstein, _" problems in philosophy are
| actually problems in language"_.
|
| Wikipedia article makes a _distinction_ between caramelize vs
| browning:
|
| >Like the Maillard reaction, caramelization is a type of non-
| enzymatic browning. Unlike the Maillard reaction, caramelization
| is pyrolytic, as opposed to being a reaction with amino acids. --
| from https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caramelization
|
| But the above _internal chemistry definitions_ are not how many
| people are using the word. To many folks, "caramelize" ==
| "browning/sauteing/frying/softening" ... which means it can be
| done in 5 to 10 minutes. This HN thread also has example of
| people using caramelize as synonym for a quick Maillard reaction.
|
| Because Tom Scocca doesn't explain the language being unknowingly
| used in different ways, his article actually _adds to the
| confusion_ instead of clarifying the misunderstanding. By
| focusing his text on being snarky instead of educating the
| reader, _he actually doesn 't even answer the "why" question in
| the title!_
|
| EDIT reply to : _> This is a fib, not a language problem. I don't
| believe that most of these recipe writers are using 5 minute
| onions themselves. It takes 40m to make the onions good. It's not
| hard. You can do it in advance. They know the difference and they
| do not serve the inferior version._
|
| In this HN thread, a poster[1] tried to "prove" that
| caramelization can be done in 10 minutes by linking a video from
| a 20-year veteran chef that was professionally trained at the
| California Culinary Academy:
| https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yt_0e72fs9M
|
| And then you have random commenters exclaiming, _" it takes me 45
| minutes to 3 hours to caramelize onions. How did you break the
| laws of physics to get it done in 10 minutes?"_
|
| Those 2 contradictory statements are about _different language
| usage_ and not about lies.
|
| [1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27649690
| dalbasal wrote:
| This is often true, but it is not true here.
|
| These recipes (Rogan Josh, Onion Soup) all call for slow cooked
| onions that take a long time. The 5-10 minute onions are an
| inferior ingredient, and it's not the one to use for good
| results. This is a fib, not a language problem.
|
| I don't believe that most of these recipe writers are using 5
| minute onions themselves. It takes 40m to make the onions good.
| It's not hard. You can do it in advance. They know the
| difference and they do not serve the inferior version.
|
| Fun article. This has been bugging me for decades.
| Retric wrote:
| Spending an extra 30 minutes on onions isn't always worth it.
| Sure, I could spend 2 hours making and cleaning up a glorious
| breakfast, but doing it every day isn't worth the time.
| jffry wrote:
| Properly caramelized onions freeze and thaw very well,
| since they are already pretty broken down and much of the
| moisture is gone.
|
| Since the big factor is the 40-60 minutes on the stove, I
| make a large batch in several pans. The onions can be
| cooled a bit and then individual portions in an old ice
| cube tray and frozen.
|
| Then I can just pop out an onion cube and microwave it
| until softened, anytime I'd like to add caramelized onions
| to something.
| dalbasal wrote:
| That's a different question. You can make a different dish,
| quicker.
|
| The dishes being described in _these_ recipes call for slow
| cook onions. The chefs writing them prepare them this way.
| Maybe it 's not worth the time, but that's the recipe. The
| printed recipe is a lie.
|
| In any case, it's 40 minutes of waiting.. not working. You
| can also onions them in advance. They last a few days in
| the fridge.
|
| Worth it..? If you're efficient with timing/prep then it
| doesn't really add any time. I would definitely say that it
| is worth having good onions if onions are the main part of
| the dish.. which these are.
|
| Meanwhile, the best quick alternative to caramelized onions
| is grilled onions, not quick fried onions.
| mcphage wrote:
| It is if you want to make French Onion Soup.
| [deleted]
| exdsq wrote:
| I've been taking cooking courses recently and found one thing I
| used to do incorrectly was never heat the pan up high enough
| before adding onions. The oil should run in streaks as you angle
| the pan when it's hot enough. You can test it by dropping a
| teaspoon of water onto a heated pan - it should become a single
| drop and glide along the pan. At that temperature with a high-
| burning oil I believe you could start to caramelise onions in 10
| minutes. I'll double check in a few minutes for breakfast and put
| an imgur up after that period of time :)
| haddr wrote:
| One hour later and the onion still hasn't caramelised
| exdsq wrote:
| Haha! Had to take the dog out, about to start now
| cout wrote:
| When I first learned about getting the pan hot enough was
| around the same time I got my first infrared thermometer. I
| learned the hard way that they don't mix; if you want to use
| the IR thermometer, add oil first. I ruined my favorite skillet
| waiting for it to get to temperature before adding my oil; the
| thermometer registered 180F on bare metal, but in actuality it
| was well over 600.
| gonzo41 wrote:
| Maybe you should use cast iron and stainless steel. You can
| really treat them like trash and with minimal effort they get
| back to being good.
| karolist wrote:
| You can still ruin them (ask me how I know)... If you use
| too intense heat right from the start, this is only a
| problem with induction. Or if heat surface does not fully
| cover the bottom of the pan the center will bulge. Probably
| some heavy hammering would fix that but for most homes
| that's as good as ruined. Basically start slow and match
| heat surface to pot/pan size.
| the-dude wrote:
| Was this cast iron or stainless steel?
| karolist wrote:
| Cast iron
| the-dude wrote:
| This surprises me. My inherited cast iron tillet ( at
| least 50 yrs old ) seems indestructable.
|
| Thanks for the info.
| [deleted]
| cout wrote:
| It was a Calphalon stainless steel skillet that I ruined.
| The bottom warped, and it never sat flush on the stove
| again after that.
|
| I have used cast iron in the past, but living with people
| who don't know about keeping it seasoned means I come back
| to find it has gone through the dishwasher or been scrubbed
| with a brillo pad. I live near the ocean, and without the
| seasoning later, cast iron develops surface rust rather
| quickly.
| nosianu wrote:
| Also has the advantage that you don't get any nano
| particles from whatever fancy coating was applied.
|
| https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/27931180/
|
| https://therationalkitchen.com/is-nonstick-cookware-safe/
|
| https://www.foodpackagingforum.org/news/nanoparticles-
| releas...
|
| https://www.researchgate.net/publication/324527553_Profile_
| a...
| tejohnso wrote:
| Seems like the jury is still out.
|
| From the second link: "In all honesty, we suspect that
| the risks with both types of nonstick cookware are low,
| and you would probably benefit more from focusing on
| risks in your drinking water and food supply (for
| example). "
| nosianu wrote:
| Why would you add an additional risk if you can just
| avoid it to begin with?
|
| I think pointing to "we don't know" as if it's equal to
| "it does not matter" is not good policy. A better one is
| "better safe than sorry" from my point of view.
|
| As someone who has had a (university clinic, lab values
| supported) heavy metal poisoning diagnosis, I had
| positive effects of chelation (DMPS, DMSA, some ALA) long
| after the clinical case was closed, i.e. for measured
| excretion values way below where a treatment would be
| started (at the start it was high). My doctor (a
| researcher mostly) supported me continuing to take them,
| but he was clear that we had left the area supported by
| clinical studies. Because now we were in an area where
| studies were just too hard or even impossible, which
| didn't mean it was all gone and that the chelators were
| useless.
|
| That's because we have no methods - apart from large-
| number statistics based studies which only tell you
| something about populations but don't help any one
| concrete individual because there is no way to tell which
| part of the large-number based statistics an individual
| belongs to - to say for sure what is going on. And when
| you get a population level result, such as "there is no
| safe level of lead exposure", you still don't have
| anything for individuals, such statistics only support
| big policies but not individual treatments.
|
| Of course the jury is still out - like it is for pretty
| much all long term low level effects of anything,
| especially in the messy real world. Even if you performed
| an unethical study and found an effect of one thing by
| careful exposure of some people to something you still
| would not know the effect of many things. I once read a
| study (PubMed), a standard LD (lethal dose) toxicity
| study of heavy metals on rats, with mercury and lead,
| where when they were done with each individually they
| tried combining those two metals. Toxicity shot up
| through the roof, a tiny fraction of the amount needed to
| kill half the rats now was enough to kill almost all of
| them.
| freeflight wrote:
| I've also slowly shifted to cast iron and stainless steel
| cooking ware, but they are objectively more effort to clean
| and maintain properly than anything with "teflon" or other
| similar coating.
|
| Burning in the patina and keeping it intact is more effort
| and requires people being more aware about what they are
| doing when washing dishes.
| aimor wrote:
| How much effort does it take?
|
| I got a lot of misinformation about how to maintain an
| iron skillet. Internet cooking blog trolls had me
| convinced I should never use soap or else I'd have to
| scrub it down to bare metal, soak it in oil, and bake it
| at 500 to restore that precious nonstick coating. Turns
| out that's bunk and all I needed to do after cooking was
| wash it, dry it, and spread a little oil over it.
| oofabz wrote:
| I cook in titanium pots. They are marketed to ultralight
| hikers, and are mostly too small, but you can find ones
| large enough for kitchen cooking. It's easier to clean
| than iron or steel, but not as easy as teflon. The nice
| thing is, unlike coated pans, you can use copper wool on
| titanium.
| Jedd wrote:
| > I've also slowly shifted to cast iron and stainless
| steel cooking ware, but they are objectively more effort
| to clean and maintain properly than anything with
| "teflon" or other similar coating.
|
| I do not believe this is true.
|
| I started cooking with various cast iron pans about a
| decade ago - initially I was dubious, and it took longer
| to season in the Lodge than the Le Creuset (both around
| the 20cm size, normally used on gas). Now they're equally
| seasoned, and cleaning is typically some hot water,
| ideally the same night they were used, maybe a very mild
| detergent, with a nylon scrubbing pad. If I don't get to
| them until the next day, I may need to run some hot water
| over them for five minutes, but that's rare.
|
| OTOH I've got a number of non-stick coating woks, that I
| treat with great care, but are (in the same time period)
| looking a bit crusty / scratched, despite only using
| silicon / plastic / wooden utensils, and never running
| them above a medium heat. That is, treating them _much_
| more cautiously than I treat the cast iron.
|
| Granted, I don't do, say, omelettes in a cast iron -- but
| herb encrusted meat, at very high temperatures, which
| would challenge a non-stick (teflon or similar) takes
| about 30s to clean out of the cast iron if I get to it
| later that night.
| freeflight wrote:
| _> maybe a very mild detergent_
|
| If you gonna do dishes, most people gonna use dishwasher
| soap, particularly if somebody is doing the dishes who
| doesn't even have a clue about seasoned pans.
|
| But afaik that's a big no-no as it will also wash away to
| seasoning, that's why usually dry methods like rubbing
| baking soda/coarse salt are recommended to clean nasty
| spots without destroying too much of the patina.
|
| Add in the oiling requirement, once finished with
| cleaning, and that's already two steps required that most
| people who are only casually into cooking don't really
| know about.
|
| _> I was dubious, and it took longer to season in the
| Lodge than the Le Creuset_
|
| Ain't the Lodge one supposed to be pre-seasoned? At least
| that's what mine said, I still seasoned it.
| MegaDeKay wrote:
| Soap does not harm a properly seasoned cast iron pan.
|
| https://www.seriouseats.com/how-to-buy-season-clean-
| maintain...
| inyourtenement wrote:
| Honestly, all those rules about caring for cast iron are
| kind of nonsense. I clean mine with dish detergent all
| the time. I'll oil a pan before storing if it doesn't get
| used often, but for frequently used pans, the cooking
| process is enough to keep them seasoned.
| Mountain_Skies wrote:
| I made the opposite mistake once. The oil was too hot and the
| second I put in the onions, WHOOOSH, giant fireball. It
| dissipated quickly and there was thankfully no harm. The oil
| didn't spatter or spill out but it was absolutely a mistake
| that only had to happen once to learn a lesson.
| eulgro wrote:
| Whoo instant caramelization! I'm definitely trying that.
| cout wrote:
| Wow, that's quite an experience! I wonder what conditions you
| must have had for the oil to not already be on fire /
| smoking, but hot enough that a disturbance caused immediate
| combustion.
| QuercusMax wrote:
| I'd guess it was probably all the moisture from the onions
| causing oil to splatter into a fine mist, which then hit
| the flames.
| mgh2 wrote:
| I find this article in the helm of "rich people problems", albeit
| effective in creating some buzz.
| suction wrote:
| Cooking meets Tech-community-grade autism
| codefreakxff wrote:
| Shoot. I feel like when I'm trying to saute my onions I will turn
| my back for a second and suddenly have shriveled little
| caramelized onions in the blink of an eye
|
| Not bragging here. I suck at cooking. Cooking onions terrifies me
| ska wrote:
| Sounds like too hot
| ineedasername wrote:
| Recipes very rarely seem accurate on prep times like this.
|
| This seems especially the case with meal kits. I'm can cut & chop
| at a respectable pace, but to get some of those meals done in the
| claimed 30 or 45 minutes.
| strait wrote:
| They're not lying. They're just assuming you're using the proper
| cookware.
| dragonwriter wrote:
| The one, e.g., claiming 5 minutes to dark brown plus 5 more to
| caramelize is a complete lie (or using "caramelize" in a
| completely nonstandard way to how it is usually used for
| onions.)
|
| Most of the rest, though, are pretty reasonable directions for
| _browning_ onions, and don't claim to be or describe
| caramelization.
| TX0098812 wrote:
| There is no such "proper" cookware. This isn't rocket science.
|
| These reactions take a certain amount of time that you can't
| change a whole lot because you need to stay within certain
| parameters, like thickness and heat.
| dragonwriter wrote:
| > These reactions take a certain amount of time that you
| can't change a whole lot because you need to stay within
| certain parameters
|
| "Caramelization" of onions (which isn't really
| caramelization, but that's...beside the point) takes a long
| time (though you _can_ alter it considerably by varying the
| thickness of cuts) because you have to cook the onion slow
| enough for it to cook through thoroughly in the time it
| browns without burning on the exterior.
|
| _Browning_ onions where you want to retain texture without
| cooking through the way that occurs in "caramelization" is
| quite quick, is what is actually described in most of the
| quoted articles, and can also be varied by thickness of cuts,
| choice of onion, stove temperature, chosen oil, and, yes,
| cookware.
| hnick wrote:
| I wonder if grating the onions would caramelise
| significantly quicker if you're going for a sauce-type
| result anyway.
| arendtio wrote:
| Well, I think you could say they are not lying, because they
| say 'for about 5 minutes or until the onions turn a medium-
| brown'.
|
| So if he result is not what you expected, you probably decided
| for the wrong part of the condition ;-)
|
| But in the end, this is just missing the point.
| cratermoon wrote:
| Not that telling people it's possible to do something in half the
| time actually required has anything to do with programming a
| computer. Oh, wait...
| chupchap wrote:
| A few things I have learnt over time.
|
| The thinner you slice the onion, the faster they caramalise.
|
| The hotter the pan when you drop in the onion, the faster they
| caramalise.
|
| Too much oil ends up frying the onion, and doesn't caramalise
| them.
| chalst wrote:
| The British cooking writer describes a process that works as
| adverstised: cook an a high heat for 2 minutes until golden, add
| a splash of water and simmer on a low heat for 35 minutes.
| GrumpyNl wrote:
| This was a great opportunity to put some videos up there to show
| how its done and showing the difference between the cooking and
| simmering of the onions.
| trainsplanes wrote:
| I guess it depends on quantity? Half an onion is easily just a
| couple minutes for me--maybe 5-10, at most.
|
| And yes, I know what proper caramelization is, and no, I didn't
| somehow mess up the time or anything because I keep track of when
| I finish everything everyday and stick to a strict schedule. I
| can't eat onions less than fully caramelized without getting
| severe digestive pain (simply being soft will still burn my
| stomach), so I'm definitely not cutting corners either.
| danielparks wrote:
| Not that I doubt you or anything, but... would you video this
| and post it somewhere?
|
| Seriously, I would love to have a quicker way to cook onions.
| jmilloy wrote:
| To summarize the answer to the title question: the problem is not
| the time but using word "caramelize". Why do recipe writers use
| the word "caramelize" when they mean "soften" or "brown"? Well,
| that's an easy one. It sounds more interesting and flavorful. It
| sounds cool.
| crazygringo wrote:
| It's true.
|
| Sauteeing, softening, frying "until golden", browning, and
| caramelizing are all (consecutive) stages of frying onions --
| approximately something like 5 min, 8 min, 12-15 min, 20-25
| min, 40-45 min.
|
| They are all _entirely_ different things, and recipe writers
| _can_ be maddeningly imprecise about which one they actually
| mean. They all have different tastes and /or textures.
| basch wrote:
| caramelization is a subset of non-enzymatic browning
|
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Food_browning#Non-
| enzymatic_br...
|
| I suspect most recipe writers are using brown to mean the
| verb "to dark golden"
| crazygringo wrote:
| Scientifically sure, but nobody's going to say "brown the
| onions" if they mean to caramelize. Also you should never
| caramelize if it just says to brown.
|
| Browning is about color and deepening flavor, caramelizing
| is specifically about _sweetening_ on top of that, hence
| the name.
| beervirus wrote:
| That's not at all a summary of the article.
| dsjoerg wrote:
| OP didn't claim it was.
| Eric_WVGG wrote:
| because words mean things. caramelization is the process of
| breaking down sugars into a goo. "soft onions" are not what
| you're going for. "brown" is a less precise definition.
|
| https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caramelization
| gtyras2mrs wrote:
| When recipes say "caramelize/cook/brown/soften onions for 5
| min", what they almost always mean is soften onions until
| they're a bit brown not caramelize.
|
| The brown bits are the result of the Maillard reaction not
| proper caramelization which takes time for the sugars to
| break down, but what you have isn't "caramelized onions" what
| you have is softened onions that are a bit brown.
|
| https://www.thespruceeats.com/how-to-brown-onions-913397
|
| > The problem with using the term "caramelized" for browned
| onions is more than just inaccuracy. What causes confusion is
| that the term is used for two very different methods and
| results. The first method, which involves very slow cooking,
| results in onions whose cells have broken down so far that
| they almost form a paste. They brown slowly and evenly,
| almost from the inside out.
|
| > The second method cooks the onions more quickly over higher
| heat so that they brown before they have a chance to break
| down. You end up with browned onions that retain their shape
| and some texture. They also retain much more of their volume.
| teorema wrote:
| There was a very good article about this a few years ago, after
| this Slate piece (this Slate piece was referenced). It was
| titled something like "Since when did caramelizing onions come
| to mean browning?" I wish I could find it.
|
| Same general issue, although they documented this shift in
| meaning of "caramelized onions" and how it affects dishes. I
| remember it well because if how long it took to do and how
| different carmelized onions are from browned sauteed onions.
| SamBam wrote:
| That's exactly the source of the confusion, and this is an
| argument that has gone round in circles so much in the past
| decade it drives me up the wall.
|
| " _This recipe says caramelize the onions for 5 minutes, then
| add some stock. That 's ridiculous, it takes at least 45
| minutes to caramelize onions, so I need to add 40 minutes to
| this recipe._"
|
| No, this issue isn't with the timing, it's simply with the word
| "caramelize." Yes, cookbook authors are guilty of incorrectly
| using the word "caramelize" when they mean brown and soften.
| No, they are _not_ guilty of simply pretending that they didn
| 't spend half an hour gently caramelizing onions when they
| write "for five minutes."
|
| People learn that caramelization takes a half hour or more, and
| then they incorrectly assume that this is what you should do
| with all recipes that brown onions.
|
| I grew up and continue to cook classic Italian and classic
| French recipes (grew up in Italy and France, my family is still
| in Italy). There are _very few_ Italian recipes that require
| caramelizing onions, and _few_ French recipes, except those
| where caramelized onions are a specific feature. For heaven 's
| sake, don't caramelize onions for 45 minutes when making a
| pasta sauce.
| suction wrote:
| What if I'm making "Suction's Caramelized Onion Pasta Sauce",
| though?
| Ysx wrote:
| It's only suction's caramalized onion pasta sauce if it
| comes from the self-loathing region of France. Otherwise
| it's just sparking onion sauce.
| addicted wrote:
| I don't understand this article. A lot of the recipes don't
| require caramelized onions. They simply require onions that are
| slightly browned.
|
| For example, Indian cooking almost never (never?) caramelizes
| onions. The Rogan gosht recipe is almost certainly looking for
| fried onions.
| washadjeffmad wrote:
| You're right, cooking styles aren't universal, and technique is
| rarely shared or accounted for in recipes.
|
| Just consider how differently each culture prepares rice, then
| imagine using an American, Persian, or Indian method to prepare
| it for a Japanese dish.
|
| Also, I didn't feel successful cooking dhal until I bought a
| traditional pressure cooker and learned what a "whistle" was.
| AlphaSite wrote:
| WRT to dhal, you can do it fairly easily in an instant pot
| (obviously recipe dependent) but maybe 10 minites on high.
| swayvil wrote:
| One way to speed up onion caramelization is to add a pinch of
| baking soda.
|
| Changes the consistency a bit. Becomes a sorta brown-onion-jelly.
|
| But it's good. And you end up with more of the final product.
| cesaref wrote:
| I think the correct response to the question is 'till they are
| done'. I hate it when recipes have timing directions like this,
| as everyone's equipment is so very different. If an onion is
| larger, it'll take more time to boil off the liquids, if the pan
| is larger, it will take longer to heat, etc etc.
|
| It would be more useful for people to think of cooking as
| building a catalog of techniques they have mastered, then to
| apply these in different combinations to different ingredients to
| achieve the various dishes they want to make.
|
| On the subject at hand, cooking onions more or less produces such
| a variety of tastes and textures, it really is a very important
| part of cooking many dishes.
| yarcob wrote:
| You can caramellize onions in 10min:
|
| https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=yt_0e72fs9M
|
| (There was a real time version of that video, but unfortunately
| it seems that longer video is no longer available)
|
| I've been able to repeat this process on a plain electric home
| stove with a stainless steel pan. It does work.
| soared wrote:
| I use the same technique but with baking soda and balsamic
| vinegar at the end to make quick 'caramelized' onions.. but
| this video undoubtedly shows burnt onions that they call fond.
| erdewit wrote:
| He's adding sugar, I think that's cheating since you can
| quickly caramelize anything that way. The result is basically
| steamed onions with butter/caramel sauce - very different from
| simmering in butter for a long time.
|
| What I do is make a large batch and freeze it in cubes. One
| cube = one simmered down onion.
| halotrope wrote:
| Jacob Burton is a great resource for proper technique and
| fundamentals. Teaches you cooking much better than "recipes"
| anfilt wrote:
| Sugar, and Butter both things that turn brown quickly. You can
| see that butter is already partially browned when he starts.
| Also he is more mixing and soaking the tiny bit that
| caramelizes with contact with the hot pan by using water into
| the onions. You can tell by the texture and color of those
| onions at the end it's not exactly what you would get from a
| normally caramelizing.
|
| The onions if caramelized should be more broken down that. This
| seems more like an in between browned and caramelized.
| legulere wrote:
| Burning onions and using the burnt parts to darken the onions
| does not make caramelized onions.
| ttfkam wrote:
| Pressure cooker cuts carmelizing time down dramatically.
| [deleted]
| hiyer wrote:
| Adding a pinch of baking soda significantly speeds up the cooking
| of onion. I've never timed it (and I've never taken onions all
| the way to caramelization since Indian food doesn't need it), but
| it's noticeable. It's my go-to trick when cooking a large amount
| of onions for Indian gravies. As an additional benefit, it also
| helps cut down the oil requirement, if you're conscious about
| that sort of thing.
| N1H1L wrote:
| Actually some Indian cuisines do need it. I think the best is
| to add some salt and sugar - that way your onions won't break
| down but still cook faster.
| vxNsr wrote:
| You need to be very careful with how much baking soda you add,
| really it's like an 1/8 of a pinch per onion. The smallest
| amount will brake down a fairly large onion, really quickly.
|
| I'm speaking from experience here, I used what I thought was a
| small amount on a very large onion and it just destroyed the
| thing, I had onion mush that wouldn't even brown correctly.
| ska wrote:
| In my experience even in small amounts the process is faster
| and the results are inferior. Not enough to ruin the dish
| unless you overdo it, but enough to not make it worthwhile
| for me.
| dekhn wrote:
| here's the secret. the first many minutes of cooking onions are
| just putting energy into breaking down vegetable matter. You can
| replace this part by microwaving the onions first, until they are
| soft. Then, squeeze out all the moisture, ideally with a press.
| This should take about 10 minutes (I have a high power microwave,
| so it's 5 minutes on high).
|
| What you have now is already "cooked" and ready for
| caramelization.
|
| The folks who get a few brown spots on the exterior of the onion
| and the rest is still white: that's not caramelization.
| djrogers wrote:
| That moisture you're squeezing out contains sugars that should
| be in the pan...
| SavantIdiot wrote:
| In the 1982 second printing of Madhjur Jaffrey's "Indian
| Cooking":
|
| On page 28 she addresses the length of time it takes to brown
| onions and how people give up because patience is required.
|
| On page 51 (Rogan Josh), "Put the onions (minced) and garlic
| (minced) in to the same put and turn the heat down to medium.
| Stir and fry the onion-garlic mixture for about 10 mintues until
| it has browned." Clearly not 5 minutes as claimed.
|
| If you actually read the BOOK and not the RECIPE, she explains
| that Indian techniques take a very long time by Western
| standards.
|
| I think the problem is people thinking a recipe tells you
| everything. It doesn't. You need to read the book part of the
| cookbook as well to understand the context that the chef is
| expecting you to inhabit.
|
| Read Alma Lach's the Art of French Cooking, or Marcela Hazans
| Italian cookbook. Both of those books have very lengthy sections
| on techniques, which often differ from what you see on the Food
| Network or shows sped up to fit in 7 minute recipe segments.
| djrogers wrote:
| The author was likely referring to the original, not the
| expanded and updated second printing.
| cortesoft wrote:
| Why put the inaccurate time in the recipe, though? Just as a
| test to make sure you read the whole book?
| SavantIdiot wrote:
| Because the title of the article is literally "Why do recipe
| writers lie..."
|
| Don't you think that perhaps the person making the claim
| should have their facts straight?
| cortesoft wrote:
| I am confused.... if the recipe itself lists an inaccurate
| time, that is still the recipe "lying" even if another part
| of the book says onions take a long time?
| banachtarski wrote:
| Says the guy who didn't read the article where the author
| actually identifies and tries a 10min caramelization tech
| she finds and discovers it too doesn't work.
| SavantIdiot wrote:
| Please read the hacker news guidelines for posting
| (https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html)
|
| "Be kind. Don't be snarky. Have curious conversation;
| don't cross-examine. Please don't fulminate. Please don't
| sneer, including at the rest of the community. "
|
| My point is that the author is complaining about lying
| but not following their own objection.
| JoeAltmaier wrote:
| 5 or 10 - no difference, each are a lie. It takes 45 minutes.
|
| Here's one that claims 1 or two minutes!
| https://www.thespruceeats.com/recipe-quick-browned-onions-91...
|
| Yes people get this wrong all the time. One good approach is to
| dry-fry onions for the first half covered, to get the water
| out. Then remove the lid and add oil (careful! there's water in
| the pan) and fry for the 2nd half of the time. Onions with
| water driven out will brown faster.
| [deleted]
| [deleted]
| thebooktocome wrote:
| You don't get caramelized onions in ten minutes, either.
| [deleted]
| [deleted]
| mensetmanusman wrote:
| I love cooking food the slow way.
|
| Pans last longer, and the mess is much less.
|
| In addition to onions, you can cook bacon on low for an hour and
| skip all the exploding grease that creates droplets in the air
| and, over time, makes dust sticky near the ceiling.
| floren wrote:
| The author points out that you can caramelize your onions
| properly over the course of 40 minutes while preparing other
| components, washing dishes, etc.
|
| But that doesn't make for a nice tight recipe the way "Stir
| onions over medium heat until caramelized, about 10 minutes"
| does. Some people are going to read "Meanwhile, caramelize onions
| over medium-low, about 40 minutes" and think "Oh boy, what a
| complex and loooong recipe, forget it!" Inexperienced cooks may
| not be comfortable leaving the onions unattended, and if you get
| caught up in the football game you could end up burning them and
| wasting half an hour's work.
|
| So if you lie and say ten minutes, people are going to do one of
| two things:
|
| * Cook the onions for ten minutes and use them however they turn
| out. The recipe might be kind of disappointing, but I bet if you
| did the rest right, it'll taste pretty decent in most cases. Lots
| of people are bad cooks, too, so properly caramelized onions may
| be the least of their worries anyway.
|
| * Keep cooking until the onions are done properly. I end up doing
| this sort of thing all the time anyway, when a recipe says things
| like "cook chicken breasts to 165 degrees, about 3 minutes on a
| side" and other nonsense (you'd think boxed macaroni and cheese
| would at least get it right but even at sea level it comes out
| inedibly hard if you boil for the lower end of the recommended
| time). The recipe comes out right and if you know to do this,
| you're probably already used to the fact that recipes lie so
| you're not much bothered.
|
| In short: the incentives probably weigh more toward making the
| recipe look quick and easy. When your readers are skimming over
| half a dozen recipes online, you don't want to be the long and
| complicated-looking one.
| insaneirish wrote:
| Not surprisingly, Serious Eats gets it right:
| https://www.seriouseats.com/how-to-caramelize-onions-classic
| zuminator wrote:
| Excellent article. Single handedly dispatches most of the
| counterpoints raised in the comments here.
| skoocda wrote:
| Counterpoint from Kenji:
|
| https://www.seriouseats.com/the-food-lab-real-french-onion-d...
| djrogers wrote:
| That's not a counterpoint, it introduces 3 additional
| techniques that reduce the time from 45 minutes to 20. None
| of these techniques are commonly called for in recipes that
| claim you can get carmelized onions in 5-10 minutes, nor do
| they get one to that promised land.
|
| (And as an aside, his techniques do reduce the time required
| but result in a vastly inferior result imho. Probably fine
| for onion dip, but I'd never put those in an onion soup, a
| flatbread, or even on a burger - the texture is all wrong)
| ska wrote:
| If I remember right, he no longer believes in this
| approach, or at least the baking soda part.
| tootie wrote:
| I learned to caramelize from Mark Bittman who wrote for the NYT
| for years and he also said 30 min. 15 in a dry pan, then add a
| load of oil and go 15 more. One thing few recipes mention is
| that cook times vary based on cookware. Cast iron or carbon
| steel will do this job faster than nonstick.
| cratermoon wrote:
| Bitty is the best!
| watertom wrote:
| Since you've been doing this a long time and you are not a
| professional, please record a video and put it up on YouTube,
| it would help out a lot of people.
| tootie wrote:
| You can watch Bittman making kasha varniskes here. He's not
| a stickler for timing which is the correct approach. He
| says, 20 minutes in a dry cast iron pot with a lid just to
| get them soft enough. Then lid off, add a bunch of fat and
| go until they look right.
|
| https://youtu.be/ugeNF_WrUPU
| KingOfCoders wrote:
| It's the same for Risotto.
| compsciphd wrote:
| just make them in a crock pot overnight.
| heisenbit wrote:
| Makes me glad working on software as recipes here don't lie.
| arkitaip wrote:
| The recipes here are not only outdated, they are for the wrong
| thing and end up 10x more expensive. Like you wanted to bake an
| apple pie but somehow ended up with a lump of bread. And it's
| on fire for some reason. Oh, and whoever decided that whisks
| aren't a thing anymore so now we're all stuck with shiny but
| inferior alternatives - fuck you.
| Tade0 wrote:
| > And it's on fire for some reason.
|
| Oh, that's just someone overengineering to pad their CV. The
| flame is part of the project - the burning isn't.
| larsrc wrote:
| The sarcasm is strong with this one.
| DantesKite wrote:
| I've always wondered and hoped for a website or app that somehow
| intuitively captures everything difficult about cooking, such
| that you can always find the best versions for cooking steak,
| coffee, chicken with minimal effort.
|
| One day it'll be built.
|
| Either that or robot chefs will learn how to cook for us.
|
| Not that I mind either fate.
| djrogers wrote:
| 2 issues with that - 'best' is subjective, and techniques
| advance over time as trends take hold and innovation happens
| (both in equipment and techniques).
|
| It's easy to think of something man has been doing for
| thousands of years as a 'solved problem', but it's an art, not
| a science.
| ergot_vacation wrote:
| It's been my experience that almost everything is like this. You
| decide one day to learn how to do x, and look up some information
| from what seem like trustworthy sources on how to do x well. What
| you'll need, the technique involved, the time, the danger points
| to watch for. You do everything according to what you've been
| told. And somewhere between 15% and 20% of the time it goes to
| shit because the source you trusted was either a moron or a liar.
| I just factor it into my expected time-table now that part of
| learning any new thing will be burning through untrustworthy
| sources until I find one that isn't full of shit.
|
| This can be somewhat ameliorated by cross-referencing several
| sources, and the internet makes this easier, especially Youtube.
| But it's still infuriating, especially when time and money are
| limited.
| larsrc wrote:
| This is the "it's a bug in the compiler" of cooking. If you think
| hundreds of years worth of collective professional experience is
| wrong and you're right, well, maybe you're not.
|
| My guess is the wrongness is either a lack of fat or
| overcrowding, or both. Fat (butter, margarine, oil, whatever, I
| prefer butter) acts as a flux to spread the heat. Use enough,
| plus use proper tools.
|
| "Butter seemed a little risky at that temperature, so I went with
| olive oil, in a cheap, lightweight nonstick skillet. In five
| minutes, a few flecks of brown had appeared". Olive oil is good
| for many things, but not for frying things. The "few flecks of
| brown" sounds like there's not enough of it either, so the heat
| oil gets applied where the onions touch the skillet directly. Add
| more flux until the flux generators cannae take it any more,
| Cap'n!
|
| Just to prove my point, here's a timelapse of half an onion done
| in butter, the way I usually do it. Quality skillet, induction
| stove set to my favorite level, 7 of 9. 5 minutes and they're
| good: https://photos.app.goo.gl/tpfAy5uqc6NRRFsB8
|
| If you want to be more careful, you can lower the heat - here's
| me cooking the other half onion at 2.5 out of 9, which is really
| very low (though done on a warm skillet, so it's a bit warmer):
| https://photos.app.goo.gl/QLaW7YkqijxF7K95A
| karolist wrote:
| The video shows fried onions, these are not caramelized. Maybe
| you like them that way and it's fine. For some eggs and bacon
| you don't need any more than that. For french onion soup it
| takes me about 30-40 minutes to fully caramelize a pan of
| onions, no way this can be done in 10 minutes.
| tompazourek wrote:
| It looks like different people (probably including recipe
| writers) mean different things by "caramelized onions", which
| could be the origin of the issue. I'm not saying one is wrong
| and the other is right, just that there's obviously
| disparity.
| Eric_WVGG wrote:
| I will tell you which is wrong and which is right.
| Caramelized onions are caramelized. It's not a vague
| definition that varies across cultures, it's right there in
| the name. Caramel, it's deep walnut brown and almost candy
| sweet. Just look up any photo of French onion soup.
|
| This guy is frying onions, might as well prepare a bowl of
| Froot Loops and you'll be just as close to caramelized
| onions.
| mcphage wrote:
| > different people (probably including recipe writers) mean
| different things by "caramelized onions"
|
| No, 'caramelized onions' is a standard term. The issue is
| not one of confusion.
| sokoloff wrote:
| "Exponentially more", "decimate", and "increased by 200%
| [to mean doubled]" are also standard terms which are used
| in a variety of contexts, often (usually?) incorrectly as
| compared to their actual definition.
| SideburnsOfDoom wrote:
| Are those words used loosely, in cookery? No, because
| it's a field in which the technicalities matter.
| nwallin wrote:
| If I'm a Roman general, and I have two captains, each
| with 1,000 soldiers, and I tell them their troops lacked
| discipline in the last battle, and I order them to
| decimate their troops, and one of them comes back with
| 100 soldiers and the other comes back with 900 soldiers,
| I am going to have a long conversation with them about
| how words have meanings.
|
| If I'm a chef, and I have two line cooks, each with an
| onion, and I tell them that their onions will need to be
| prepared for French onion soup, and I order them to
| caramelize their onion, and one comes back in 10 minutes
| and the other comes back in 45 minutes, I am going to
| have a long conversation with them about how words having
| meanings.
|
| This isn't a random context, this is _the_ context where
| the term "caramelize" is technical jargon.
| sokoloff wrote:
| That's exactly my point. Far more cookbooks and
| subscriptions can be sold to "people who cook" than to
| "professional chefs who rigorously and precisely follow
| the literal definition of terms which once had a specific
| meaning and now colloquially encompass a much broader
| range of meaning".
|
| (Imprecise language bugs the hell out me as well, but it
| seems like it's easier for me to bend than to attempt to
| fix all the humans.)
| nwallin wrote:
| I don't understand your point at all.
|
| I can be mowing my lawn when it's 110F outside and say,
| "Gosh, I'm boiling." But if a recipe tells me to "boil"
| something, and it means anything other than put it in
| 212F water with heat applied in such a way that the water
| is bubbling, then the recipe is a shitty recipe, and I
| will diagnose the author with a confusion of the mind.
| The fact that the term now encompasses a much broader
| range of meaning in other contexts is _completely_
| irrelevant: I am not in those other contexts, in this
| context, it is a word with a very specific meaning.
| sokoloff wrote:
| The Slate article and this very HN discussion (broadly,
| not this sub-thread) are evidence that the phrase
| "caramelized onions" does not appear to have a singular,
| very specific meaning in this context. If it did,
| cookbooks wouldn't make the claim and the Slate article
| and this discussion wouldn't exist.
| bombcar wrote:
| I suspect half of cookbooks are badly written and worsely
| edited - especially if they're trying to make it sound
| fancier.
| SideburnsOfDoom wrote:
| > to "people who cook" than to "professional chefs
|
| You have a point here, there is a "context collapse"
| happening, when this definition is necessarily precise
| for professional chefs, and less so for "people who cook
| to eat".
|
| However such recipe books typically claim to bring some
| of the professional techniques and results to the home
| cook, and as such are sowing confusion if they encourage
| "semantic drift"
|
| https://interparestrust.org/terminology/term/context%20co
| lla...
|
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Semantic_change
| SamBam wrote:
| No, it's precisely the opposite. The issue is exactly
| that recipe quotes frequently write "caramelized" when
| they mean "browned."
|
| Yes, there is a technical definition of "caramelized."
| No, not every recipe writer uses this definition.
|
| Look, when a recipe says "caramelize the onions for ten
| minutes" then there is _something_ wrong, right? It 's
| either the time or the word. Why does everyone learn the
| "true" definition of "caramelize" and then start assuming
| that the author must have used the right word and the
| wrong time, and that what they _actually_ want you to do
| is sit there tending to onions for 45 minutes?
|
| The VAST majority of recipes, particularly Italian or
| French, neither require nor want caramelized onions.
| Unless it's a recipe like French Onion Soup, the vast
| majority of such recipes want softened or browned onions.
| Take this from someone who has cooked in Italy and France
| for nearly 35 years.
| SideburnsOfDoom wrote:
| > I'm not saying one is wrong and the other is right, just
| that there's obviously disparity.
|
| As other replies hints at, "caramelize" is not a judgement
| call or varying definition; it's specific thing, a
| particular chemical reaction on sugar. if it hasn't
| happened then the onions are not "caramelised" and they
| actually are wrong.
|
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caramelization
| AbrahamParangi wrote:
| The fact that there's a long debate about the definition
| of caramelize might be a hint that people don't agree
| about what it means.
| ycombobreaker wrote:
| It's similar to the debate about "begging the question.".
| Enough people misuse/misunderstand the phrase that the
| intended meaning becomes vague: did the author really
| mean "beg" or "raise"?
|
| It doesn't make the incorrect usage correct, but it does
| mean correct interpretation of _intent_ requires
| acknowledging incorrect _vocabulary_.
| kbelder wrote:
| That reminds me of the pronunciation of GIF. There's
| enough people pronouncing it incorrectly that the
| incorrect version became an acceptable alternative.
| SideburnsOfDoom wrote:
| There are differences. Linguistics is more "descriptive"
| than "prescriptive", meaning that "it seeks to describe
| reality" of what people say - if we actually pronounce a
| word one way and are correctly understood, then that is a
| valid way that the word is pronounced, whatever it is.
|
| In chemistry, validity is not so subjective. it seeks to
| describe reality by measuring presence of clearly
| definable chemicals. The question of "what percentage of
| the sugar in this food item has been converted via
| caramelisation (or the Maillard reaction)" is not
| something that we can choose different but equally
| correct measurements of.
| SideburnsOfDoom wrote:
| The Wikipedia article isn't long.
|
| if you're referring to the "long debate" here on HN, then
| no, it doesn't mean very much about the facts of the
| matter.
|
| original article doesn't debate the definition of
| caramelize, rather is about how it can be achieved.
|
| Some things such as "pleasant music" or "good food" do
| not have crisp definitions. However, chemical reactions
| are far more clear-cut. They can be described and
| measured accurately, and debate settled. It doesn't
| matter how "long" the debate is, there are correct
| answers.
|
| The only debate that IMHO I can see is "what percentage
| of the sugar has to be caramelized before it counts as a
| caramelized onion" ? Are there terms for partly and
| totally caramelized onions?
| phonypc wrote:
| There's probably little if any actual caramelization of
| sugar happening in "caramelized onions" despite the name.
| "Maillardized onions" would be more accurate, if awkward
| sounding.
| exporectomy wrote:
| Haha. I read larsrc's confident comment and thought, ah,
| the blogger must have been wrong. Then got to the equally
| confident replies and realized everyone's confident and
| coherent on HN (vs confident and ranting looney on the
| general internet) and I need to calibrate my gullibility :P
| bombcar wrote:
| Assume 99% of everyone on the internet is wrong and
| incorrecting each other.
|
| And yes this means if half say C and half say Not-C they
| both are 99% wrong. :)
| dalbasal wrote:
| No. This is exactly what the author is arguing. This isn't
| word problem. These recipes call for slow cooked onions.
| Rogan josh, onion soup...
| rat9988 wrote:
| Many people confuse fried and caramelized onion. What the
| op showed is definitely not caramelized. Any recipe book in
| the market wouldn't confuse them.
| lm28469 wrote:
| This is what caramelized onions look like:
| https://jessicainthekitchen.com/wp-
| content/uploads/2020/02/H...
|
| OP's video looks like fried onions with slightly burned
| sides.
|
| Just like you can't bake a cake at 1000 degrees for 5 min
| instead of 200 degrees for 25 minutes, you can't caramelize
| onions in 5 or 10 minutes no matter the heat
| jamesrom wrote:
| Would you mind doing this again, but for 30 minutes for
| comparison?
| bathory wrote:
| Compare your result, with the end result seen here [1]. It is a
| completely different color as well as texture.
|
| [1] https://youtu.be/kEfJTmf9hDs
| gorgoiler wrote:
| Try cutting an onion into slices top to bottom (not across the
| stripes) and then cook it slowly for an hour in a tablespoon of
| sunflower oil at 4of9.
|
| You will end up with barely a teaspoon of completely broken
| down onion matter that looks like apple butter or quince paste.
|
| Your onions look delicious, but they are a different outcome to
| what the article describes.
| dalbasal wrote:
| >> hundreds of years worth of collective professional
| experience is wrong
|
| This isn't what the author thinks. He thinks recipe writers are
| lying, not wrong. If you learned face-to-face, they would teach
| you the proper way... 40m. When they cook the dish themselves,
| they do 40m onions. When they _write_ the recipe, they say
| 5-10m.
|
| Your onions are great topping onions. Lovely on a burger,
| spuds, yum. Onion soup needs softer onions.
| jasode wrote:
| _> If you learned face-to-face, they would teach you the
| proper way... 40m. When they cook the dish themselves, they
| do 40m onions. When they write the recipe, they say 5-10m._
|
| Leaving aside French Onion soup and looking your other
| example of rogan josh, here are some deep links to videos
| mentioning "~10 minutes":
|
| - _" 7 to 10 minutes"_ :
| https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B2GKfjaZQZE&t=2m15s
|
| - _" caramelizing quicker [...] 5 to 7 minutes"_ :
| https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ICT_oOoMf4w&t=2m40s
|
| - _" caramelize into light brown color [...] 10 to 15
| minutes"_ :
| https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ri3rSU1MkJY&t=0m57s
|
| So either 2 possibilities:
|
| - the different cooks actually cook the onions for 40+
| minutes _but hide the extra 30 minutes from the viewer_ and
| prefer to lie on camera and say "~10 minutes"
|
| ... or ...
|
| - those cooks are actually just browning the onions for ~10
| minutes _and calling _that_ quick process "caramelization"_
|
| Doesn't Occam's Razor point more to the 2nd scenario?
| dalbasal wrote:
| IDK how Brother Occam cooked his onions, put _the author_
| is not arguing semantics. The Author is calling out recipe
| writers on succumbing to something or other... and fibbing.
| Occam was a man of god and would have told the truth.
|
| I don't think deducing from pure logic in a court of first
| principles (I am being dramatic, obviously) is the way to
| go here. These are some pretty established recipe families
| and good cooks tend to cook them the slow cooked onion way.
|
| I suppose one can always argue that art is in the eye of
| the beholder, that French Onion Soup, Bunny Chow or Rogan
| Josh are whatever we decide they are, plurality, etc.
| but... well... these recipes are half onion. They're not
| quick fried onion recipes. The onions are soft and mix
| gently with the gelatinous liquid parts. There's no lost in
| translation here. They're saying and showing pictures that
| imply slow cooked onions. In their restaurants (and homes),
| they are certainly not serving soup that's a stock with
| crunchy onion rings floating around! They're making french
| onion soup that's french onion soup. They're using slow
| cooked onions and lying about it! Godammit HN! Sometimes
| things just are as sneaky as they seem. I've had it with
| these onion fibbin fraudsters. They've been lying to us
| this whole time!
| jasode wrote:
| _> the author is not arguing semantics. _
|
| I agree that the _author is not dissecting semantics_ and
| that omission is my point. It 's the flaw with his essay.
| I'm saying the best way to _explain_ the widespread
| "lie" (across books, Youtube videos, etc) is via
| _differing language usage_.
|
| And look closely again (freeze the frame) at that deep
| link of the onions in the Vivek Singh of Cinnamon Club
| video... those are not deep dark brown onions (scientific
| chemistry of caramelization) -- and yet he _calls that
| 5-7 minute heating of onions ... "caramelization"_.
|
| _> There's no lost in translation here._
|
| Those videos and this entire HN thread full of
| contradictory comments about "caramelization" and various
| posters trying to correct each other ... seems like
| evidence that there's plenty lost in translation. :-)
|
| The author quotes Madhur Jaffrey's cookbook for rogan
| josh and the Youtube video shows Madhur Jaffrey re-
| iterating that it's 7-10 minutes to brown the onions.
| dalbasal wrote:
| It's not a neutral observer kind of an examination. Some
| things are intuitive if you understand the subculture.
|
| It is similarly difficult to "prove" the antipattern in a
| web app's data consent model to a neutral observer. But,
| if you live in a world of Web Apps & TCS, then it's quite
| intuitive. Users can tick here, click there... consent.
| If someone has never used a computer before, it'll sound
| reasonable.
|
| There is more context to these "misunderstandings" than
| language usage. The author's point is as true if you just
| used the term "onions," without a descriptor.
|
| You can point to end cases... special onion cultivars,
| special cooking methods (the author tries one), a twist
| on the mainstream recipe... Any of these could "explain"
| the observations, if you're looking at it this way.
| There's no smoking gun without an author admitting that
| they fibbed about onion times...
|
| >>Those videos and this entire HN thread full of
| contradictory comments about "caramelization"
|
| Of course it they are! Semantics are Nerdbait Pro. That's
| why these states persist.
|
| The semantics are cover. This is a conspiracy, of sorts.
| ... No cooking class will teach you the 5 minute onion
| version of french onion soup or Rogan Josh. Only written
| recipes trying to look quick and easy. This is not a
| coincidence. I'm not claiming there is enough evidence on
| the table to convict anyone specific. Each one could just
| be wrong, or eccentric. I am saying that as someone who
| cooks and eats these dishes....On average, these are
| blatant lies!
|
| Despite the fact that people use terms like "caramelized"
| in multiple ways, we can usually know a lot of meaning
| from context. The more context we know (eg, knowing how
| these dishes are ordinarily made), the better we are able
| to distinguish meaning... and also antipatterns like
| habitual fibbing in a certain context.
|
| We're more likely to notice the photo effects, if we know
| that we're looking at a thumbnail.
|
| [disclaimer] Being melodramatic for fun. Obviously not
| this cranky about onion recipes.
| anfilt wrote:
| Those don't look like caramelized onions to me, more like
| sauteed/fried.
| moksly wrote:
| > If you think hundreds of years worth of collective
| professional experience is wrong and you're right, well, maybe
| you're not.
|
| Often, but that's not what is happening here. Here you have
| real world cooks and the collective experience of them telling
| recipe writers that you can't caramelise onions in 5-10
| minutes.
|
| In your own video examples, the onions aren't caramelised, they
| aren't even cooked. You can tell because you can still see the
| green/white colour of the onions.
|
| This is what they should look like: http://rachel-
| cuisine.fr/wp-content/uploads/2013/09/ob_598de...
|
| What you've made is halfcooked onions that have been fried in
| butter and sugar. Which may taste perfectly fine, but also
| nothing like the real thing.
| lambdasquirrel wrote:
| > Here you have real world cooks and the collective
| experience of them
|
| This. There's plenty of people backing this up.
| SamBam wrote:
| > Here you have real world cooks and the collective
| experience of them telling recipe writers that you can't
| caramelise onions in 5-10 minutes.
|
| This is backwards. It's really the other way around here.
|
| What you have is real-world cooks and chefs, with all their
| collective experience, giving recipes correctly, but using
| the word "caramelized," and a bunch of people telling them
| that that isn't technically what "caramelized" means.
|
| The vast majority of recipes involve cooking onions for 10-20
| minutes, _not_ caramelizing them for 45.
|
| The "mistake" in all these thousands of recipes is simply the
| _word_ , not that none of these people know how to cook, or
| are deliberately lying to you about how to caramelize am
| onion.
| notacoward wrote:
| Cosigned. Fried is not the same as fully cooked. This is
| important to me because my gut is just fine with fully cooked
| onions but ... well, let's just say "not" otherwise. Fully
| cooking onions to the proper transparency (with just the
| tiniest bit of color) is a 20-minute process, and actual
| caramelization takes twice that.
|
| I suspect that the reason most cooks lie is that _they 're
| not the ones doing it_. To them, cooked onions are an
| ingredient that a spouse or assistant put in a bowl for them
| while they were still deciding which homey anecdote to fill
| out their "recipe" with. Peeling, chopping, and basic
| preparation are for the little people.
| nwallin wrote:
| The videos you posted aren't of caramelized onions, they're
| sauteed/browned onions. It's a different chemical reaction. You
| are creating a Maillard reaction of the protein in the onion.
| Caramelization is a reaction of the sugar in the onion.
|
| I got a buddy who's from Texas, and he makes a mean brisket. He
| spends like 6 hours on it. I'm from California, and I make a
| pretty awesome tri-tip. I spend like 1 hour on it. They're both
| beef. They're both delicious. They look the same if you squint
| at it right. But they taste absolutely nothing like each other.
| And that's fine, as long as I don't call my tri-tip brisket and
| he doesn't call his brisket tri-tip. Cuz they ain't the same
| thing.
| mnl wrote:
| >Olive oil is good for many things, but not for frying things.
|
| You've just discarded like half of Spanish cuisine... For
| instance the first thing you do in a paella involves frying
| (well, sauteing really) meat, vegetables and then very
| precisely paprika with olive oil. It's widely used to fry
| everything here, including potato omelettes and fish.
|
| Of course it's good for frying things, there are cheaper and
| easier oils to cook with if you like them, but they make lousy
| substitutes for the dishes traditionally fried with olive oil.
| 11235813213455 wrote:
| I eat garlic/onions/leek raw, to preserve enzymes and vitamins
| christkv wrote:
| This is why I cook caramelised onions in big batches and freeze
| them in portions for later us.
| jiofih wrote:
| So he didn't actually try browning in butter.
| jka wrote:
| In practice, how long it takes for any ingredient step is
| naturally going to be context-sensitive, and most recipe authors
| and readers appreciate that.
|
| (chef's experience, properties of the ingredients used, quality
| of equipment.. among many others)
|
| While thinking about a digital format for recipes I wondered
| whether it'd be possible to instead specify an "end condition"[1]
| for each preparation step - in terms of colour, taste, texture
| and so on.
|
| There could still be "estimated" typical durations for each step,
| but it'd allow for those to be somewhat dynamic based on the
| environment "at cooktime".
|
| [1] -
| https://github.com/openculinary/soupson/blob/8d43a08534d9906...
| dragonwriter wrote:
| > In practice, how long it takes for any ingredient step is
| naturally going to be context-sensitive, and most recipe
| authors and readers appreciate that.
|
| Yeah, most of the things quoted in the article are also within
| the realm of reason, and all of them state an end condition;
| there's a few that are complete BS, but, since I assume the
| _author_ knows the difference between browning and
| caramelization and recognizes that most of the examples
| _aren't_ referring to caramelization - appear to have been
| included for padding to exaggerate the prominence of the
| pattern being complained about, relying on _readers_ not
| understanding the difference.
| djrogers wrote:
| > since I assume the author knows the difference between
| browning and caramelization and recognizes that most of the
| examples aren't referring to caramelization
|
| The recipes call for caramelization - that's the point here.
| dragonwriter wrote:
| > The recipes call for caramelization
|
| They don't, though. The actual description of the target
| state in most of them is (often light) browning, not
| "caramelization".
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