[HN Gopher] Catalytic Converter Theft
___________________________________________________________________
Catalytic Converter Theft
Author : secondary
Score : 68 points
Date : 2021-06-22 16:10 UTC (2 days ago)
(HTM) web link (sanfrancisco.cbslocal.com)
(TXT) w3m dump (sanfrancisco.cbslocal.com)
| google234123 wrote:
| What do people expect if you effectively decriminalize these
| crimes?
| dpritchett wrote:
| _That was kind of like hitting the lottery for us," said
| Sacramento County Sheriff's Detective Tom McCue, who led a multi-
| agency task force on the case._
|
| Glad they busted up a theft ring but this sounds like a moral
| hazard, assuming they're keeping the money.
| bluedino wrote:
| The local metal scrapyards are far too lenient. They don't bat an
| eye at someone bringing in stolen air conditioning condensers
| (they can even be brand new)
|
| You should have to have the tittle for the car to bring a
| converter in, since it's a federal offense to remove them.
| kube-system wrote:
| Then how would we expect a legitimate mechanic to replace one?
| bluedino wrote:
| Then they can show their mechanic's license. There's no
| reason for Joe off the street to come in with a backpack full
| of these things. Especially ones that are brand new. Here's
| 20 stolen from a dealership the other night -
| https://abc13.com/la-porte-car-dealership-theft-catalytic-
| co...
| Turing_Machine wrote:
| "Mechanic's license"?
| JshWright wrote:
| Many US states require auto repair businesses to be
| registered, which would be a reasonable thing to tie back
| to (if this was a reasonable idea in the first place,
| which it isn't).
| throwaway0a5e wrote:
| >Then they can show their mechanic's license.
|
| Scrapyards already need licenses (permits). Adding
| licensing requirements will just result in the people with
| licenses buying from the thiefs. It's just another
| middleman in the chain.
|
| If anything it makes the problem worse because scrapyards
| often do turn away obvious thieves. A mechanic showing up
| with ten legit converters and forty stolen ones he bought
| off the thief gives the scrapyard plausible deniability.
| Furthermore it moves the illicit transaction outside of a
| legit commercial establishment and to wherever the thief
| and the mechanic care to meet.
|
| It's already acknowledged that without enforcement against
| the people who are actually cutting the cats off regulatory
| requirements just displace the problem and shift the profit
| around.
|
| Being a mechanic doesn't require a license although running
| the commercial establishment generally has some permitting
| requirements.
| dragontamer wrote:
| > Adding licensing requirements will just result in the
| people with licenses buying from the thiefs.
|
| Lets think about this situation in programming terms.
| "Fixing this exploit will just result in the people
| finding another bug to exploit".
|
| Well... yeah. That's the point. You don't necessarily
| want to stop all crimes (I mean, you do, but that's just
| unreasonable). Everyone is happy with simple deterrence:
| making crime harder to do and harder to logically manage.
|
| And you keep fixing the law until the criminals /
| unwanted behavior is finally fixed. You gotta start
| somewhere, much like you gotta start fixing code exploits
| if you want to fix the security in your software.
| beerandt wrote:
| This is the thinking that got us:
|
| 1) the mess that is DRM, whether for software or media,
| and
|
| 2) to the point of 10-step windows activation (including
| phone calls and having to reinstall because one version
| only takes retail keys and another only takes oem keys
| and another only uses network auth), and
|
| 3) video games that try and re-authenticate between every
| frame of play
|
| And tons of other "fixes" that just punish users and
| don't really deter bad behavior.
|
| Software is bad enough; we shouldn't need to authenticate
| our exhaust system before recycling it.
| emodendroket wrote:
| How often does your average person sell scrap parts? I
| don't think the situations are analogous.
| throwaway0a5e wrote:
| The people that do it as a hobby/side gig probably go
| through 2-25 cars/yr with the people on the higher end
| doing more scrapping and less individual part selling.
| beerandt wrote:
| The gross sum of time spent tracing the origins of scrap
| will be greater than money lost due to theft.
|
| The answer is mitigated risk via insurance and
| prevention, not a preemptive policing of all privately
| owned items of value.
| throwaway0a5e wrote:
| This isn't fixing an exploit. It's slapping a manager
| review on anything that gets run on the prod DB.
| 01100011 wrote:
| Adding another middleman makes the thefts less efficient
| and less profitable for the thieves. Sounds like a win to
| me. Sure, it doesn't stop it completely. So what?
| throwaway0a5e wrote:
| If they're not getting prosecuted enough to make them
| stop adding middle men and reducing profit means they'll
| steal more cats to get their fix.
| zrobotics wrote:
| I used to work at an exhaust shop. We sold catalytic
| converters to a scrap yard (we also had a separate dumpster
| for scrap metal that they picked up weekly as well). We
| needed to show receipts for purchased cats that matched what
| we scrapped, so if we scrapped 50 we needed to show we had
| sold at least 50. Although the main reason for that was
| environmental, it was to prevent shops from removing
| converters and straight piping the vehicle. However, it also
| did help to prevent theft, although I don't know if the yard
| checked thoroughly for non-commercial customers.
| emodendroket wrote:
| Why would the mechanic need to sell it to a scrapyard?
| throwaway0a5e wrote:
| So it doesn't clutter up the shop.
|
| The same reason they scrap the mountains of other used non-
| working parts they generate.
| giarc wrote:
| I wonder if most shops buy their parts from a distributor
| who takes them back, most often called a "core charge".
| emodendroket wrote:
| Seems like it would be a way to make such regulation work
| if so.
| olyjohn wrote:
| I don't get it either. I literally had to replace the cat on my
| car after it started throwing a check engine light. I took the
| old one to a scrap yard, and the amount of info they asked me
| for was crazy. They wanted the VIN of the car, all of the car
| information like make, model, color, etc, then photocopied my
| ID and kept records of it. This is in Washington, so it may
| vary by state. You'd think this would be enough, but there's
| someone who is not asking questions...
|
| So many scrap yards are out of business in our area now too, I
| don't get where people are taking them to. Maybe people are
| taking them out of state to where people don't ask questions.
| throwaway0a5e wrote:
| >You should have to have the tittle for the car to bring a
| converter in, since it's a federal offense to remove them.
|
| If my eyes could roll in a complete circle they would.
|
| Nobody who is parting out cars (resulting in a decent number of
| legitimately owned cats lying around to scrap) is bringing in
| the title because cheap junk often changes hands without a
| title and if not you gave the title to the junkyard in order
| for them to take the bare shell without you cutting it up.
|
| And how is the scrap yard supposed to figure out which cat
| matches which title?
|
| (the other guy covered the mechanic use case so I won't)
| tabletthrowaway wrote:
| A potentially less bad idea: circulate a list of known stolen
| catalytic converters by serial number, and encourage
| scrappers not to buy them/help find who stole them.
|
| I think this is done with bikes in a lot of places.
| dctoedt wrote:
| There used to be a local scrap metal yard in Houston that
| advertised on TV: "We pay in two-dollar bills!" (Translation:
| We pay cash, which means you can't be traced.) I haven't seen
| that ad lately, thought.
| moltar wrote:
| The article describes a ring that doesn't involve scrap yards.
| It's a different kind of hustle where precious metals are
| extracted from the inside.
| Robotbeat wrote:
| Well I suppose this is one advantage of pure electric cars.
| dawnerd wrote:
| Wait till you find out how easy and profitable it is to bust
| off Tesla mirrors.
| [deleted]
| imglorp wrote:
| Came here to say that, and yes good riddance of the whole
| emissions cycle we've endured for decades.
|
| EV battery packs are certainly serial numbered and traceable,
| but these guys will just pivot to breaking up packs and selling
| cells or whatever.
| lastofthemojito wrote:
| > these guys will just pivot to breaking up packs and selling
| cells or whatever
|
| I'm sure electric cars are being, and will continue to be,
| stolen, parted out, etc. But battery theft won't look quite
| like catalytic converter theft as batteries are much heavier
| and aren't as easily accessible. Check out the video of a
| catalytic converter theft posted by another commenter in this
| thread [0]. The thief slides under the SUV at the 1:37 mark,
| does some cutting from about 2:00-2:14, then slides out with
| his prize around 2:24. In and out in less than a minute - no
| need to jack up the vehicle (SUVs and trucks are often
| already high enough), no need to enter the vehicle. And the
| catalytic converter weighs something like 10 pounds so he can
| just walk away with it. Stealing an 800-pound battery pack
| out of a Tesla would be a much more involved operation.
|
| 0: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EP3N4RwHd5k
| [deleted]
| KMnO4 wrote:
| My boss has a video of someone jacking up his Model 3 and
| sliding underneath (thankfully leaving with nothing). I guess
| thieves aren't always the brightest bulbs.
| 1-6 wrote:
| Thankfully, neodymium still costs less than metals inside
| catalytic converters.
| 1-6 wrote:
| We need to build cities with ring roads. It'll deter thieves
| because cities are vulnerable to thieves driving in and out
| quickly on freeways.
| throwaway0a5e wrote:
| Cat theft would be a $200 problem ($50 for the cat, $150 for
| someone to put it in there) on the order of a cracked windshield
| instead of a $2k problem if CARB would pull its head out of it's
| butt and stop caring about what cat you put on what as long as it
| sniffs within spec at the tailpipe.
|
| I'm not condoning theft but CA state policy is a large part of
| why this issue hurts as bad as it does.
| CraigJPerry wrote:
| In our market we don't have CARB but an OEM cat for a Mazda Rx8
| retails at PS1300. An aftermarket like for like is PS800 (there
| are cheaper "race" cats but its a different product with less
| of the expensive precious metals inside).
|
| Edit: a fairer example would be a ford focus - one of the most
| popular cars in the uk. PS200 aftermarket main cat, PS70
| aftermarket pre-cat.
| cartoonworld wrote:
| That's the aftermarket for you. There are aftermarket
| California cats with a similar discount available.
| cartoonworld wrote:
| Cat install costs way more than that.
|
| But aside, would you really be okay going back to the days of
| photochemical smog choking away your sunlight and skyrocketing
| rates of asthma and acid rain dissolving your ancestor's
| gravestones??
|
| Federal law requires the catalytic converters. Everyone is
| definitely better off for them.
| pengaru wrote:
| > But aside, would you really be okay going back to the days
| of photochemical smog choking away your sunlight and
| skyrocketing rates of asthma and acid rain dissolving your
| ancestor's gravestones??
|
| You're missing the point: _new_ CA-legal catalytic converters
| cost 200-400% the price of 49-state legal ones because of the
| CARB certification. Most vendors won 't even ship a new
| 49-state cat to a CA address, and selling used ones is
| technically illegal.
|
| This isn't about cat vs. no cat. It's about CA creating a
| lucrative black market while simultaneously strictly
| requiring cats be kept in good working order via regular smog
| checks.
|
| If the smog checks are worth a damn it shouldn't be necessary
| to certify the catalysts; if the cat isn't working, the
| vehicle should fail its regular smog test.
|
| CA is fundraising here, and it's no doubt a contributing
| factor in catalyst theft within the state.
| cartoonworld wrote:
| 200-400% hasn't been my experience, but I'll give you maybe
| they should expand carb nationwide to increase the demand
| side of the curve, lowering costs overall.
|
| >if the cat isn't working, the vehicle should fail its
| regular smog test.
|
| The vehicle ECU monitors the exhaust composition before and
| after the first catalyst. Downstream, the performance is
| not monitored by the computer. afiak the ECU doesn't have
| the capability to monitor nox and hydrocarons directly. The
| reason for this is that a cheap, reliable oxygen sensor is
| employed for monitoring.
|
| Maybe it's possible to add that regulation federally.
| pengaru wrote:
| > 200-400% hasn't been my experience, but I'll give you
| maybe they should expand carb nationwide to increase the
| demand side of the curve, lowering costs overall.
|
| 49-state legal, direct-fit: $118
| https://www.ebay.com/itm/253120020746
|
| CA-legal, universal: $776
| https://www.ebay.com/itm/304044103436
|
| CA-legal direct-fit: $1048 (!)
| https://www.ebay.com/itm/174087409201
|
| > The vehicle ECU monitors the exhaust composition before
| and after the first catalyst. Downstream, the performance
| is not monitored by the computer. afiak the ECU doesn't
| have the capability to monitor nox and hydrocarons
| directly. The reason for this is that a cheap, reliable
| oxygen sensor is employed for monitoring.
|
| I don't see what any of this has to do with smog tests,
| and it's not even accurate for all vehicles (pre obd2 has
| just a single narrow band o2 sensor before the cat) but
| this is completely off-topic. The tests shouldn't rely on
| the vehicle's systems for measuring emissions, it just
| creates more opportunities for fuckery.
|
| CA smog tests use their own emissions monitoring
| equipment and have already employed rolling roads to put
| the vehicles through varying loads during the test.
| cartoonworld wrote:
| I gotcha, it's. 1994-97 miata and there aren't a lot of
| cats left. Such is the life of a classic car owner.
|
| >I don't see what any of this has to do with smog tests,
| and it's not even accurate for all vehicles (pre obd2 has
| just a single narrow band o2 sensor
|
| You mentioned the smog tests, saying if the vehicle can't
| measure them they aren't worth a damn
|
| >If the smog checks are worth a damn it shouldn't be
| necessary to certify the catalysts; if the cat isn't
| working, the vehicle should fail its regular smog test.
|
| Thats why it is not off-topic.
|
| No cars monitor for the smog gasses. That's why Cali uses
| a special sniffer and a dyno to run a load test. In order
| to accomplish their stated goal of reducing pbotochemical
| smog, they must employ a dyno to test under load to
| monitor the production of nox and hydrocarbons out the
| tail pipe.
|
| The oxygen sensors pre-obd2 were never used in any state
| for emissions, In my state we did a 2 speed idle test on
| a dyno which is being retired currently as all required
| vehicles are now exempt from this test.
|
| We still are running oxygen sensors for engine management
| in every car. They do not sense any smog gasses.
| throwaway0a5e wrote:
| > Cat install costs way more than that.
|
| Around here they're ~1hr of shop labor plus the cost of the
| cat (the latter being like $50 for an aftermarket cat up to a
| few hundred for an OEM cat (though there's a few vehicles
| with oddly expensive ones) with the 50-state cats always
| costing an integer multiple more.
|
| >But aside, would you really be okay going back to the days
| of photochemical smog choking away your sunlight and
| skyrocketing rates of asthma and acid rain dissolving your
| ancestor's gravestones??
|
| What part about "sniffs withing spec at the tailpipe" was
| unclear?
| londons_explore wrote:
| If the Cat is worth $200 to a thief because of all the
| precious metals in it, how can a cheapo cat cost only $50?
|
| The cheapo cat doesn't have many precious metals in, and
| barely is doing its job. The sniff test done at the annual
| inspection doesn't typically test for all types of gas. So
| probably the cheapo one might 'pass the test' but still be
| far from meeting the law.
|
| Either that or the makers of cheapo knock-off catalytic
| converters have some amazing R&D that even the OEM's can't
| figure out...
| cartoonworld wrote:
| $150 cat? I don't buy it. It costs $50 to turn the welder
| on for cheapy aftermarket units that fail fast, the clamp
| type arent compatible for most exhausts and cats are more
| that $50 even for older vehicles. Recent models can be
| hundreds of dollars on parts wholesalers. Your mechanic
| will charge list price.
|
| https://www.walkerexhaust.com/products/light-
| vehicle/catalyt...
|
| It won't sniff within spec at the tailpipe without the
| catalyst.
| gbrown wrote:
| I think you misunderstood the OP.
|
| > what cat you put on what as long as it sniffs within
| spec
| cartoonworld wrote:
| I don't think so, but I'm open to be educated about a $50
| fifty state downstream catalytic converter.
|
| Cali cats are often more $ but, where in the USA is there
| a $50 catalyst? More over, which shop charges less then
| $100/hr labor?
|
| The down stream cat cleans up the photosmog producing
| tailpipe emissions.
|
| California learned how horrible the smog is, we knew
| about the causes almost a hundred years ago. Letting
| people install mystery cats, possibly made from real
| cats, is going back to the era of "west side story"
| geephroh wrote:
| This has become enough of an issue here in the Seattle metro area
| that the King County prosecutor's office has a special taskforce,
| in conjunction with several neighboring jurisdictions. It happens
| in the city, the suburbs, and even at busy trailheads.
|
| It's particularly concerning because some folks are beginning to
| take matters into their own hands[1].
|
| 1. https://www.seattletimes.com/seattle-news/crime/man-
| accused-...
| jtbayly wrote:
| What do you expect people to do if the civil magistrate decides
| not to protect people's life and property?
| mikestew wrote:
| What do I expect people to do? Not drag people behind a truck
| over a car part. What, you think that's reasonable? Or is it
| just the shooting that you don't find to be over the top?
| jtbayly wrote:
| Taking things into their own hands is literally all that is
| left, unless you are a pacifist. I never made any statement
| about how people should take it into their own hands or
| what degree was acceptable or over what. Nor did I say
| anything about shootings being acceptable. So take your
| straw man out of here.
|
| What would _you_ do is if somebody was taking $1500 of
| yours along with your ability to provide for yourself for
| several days while your vehicle is out of commission?
|
| (Or is it only when the government does that through civil
| asset forfeiture that you have a problem with it? Two can
| play at this game, you know.)
|
| Remember, "call the police" isn't an option.
| mikestew wrote:
| _So take your straw man out of here._
|
| No straw man, it was in the referenced article, which one
| might assume to be the context of your comment. But if
| you're just making a random, out-of-context statement,
| you'll have to allow that others are keeping up with the
| conversation.
| [deleted]
| gimmeThaBeet wrote:
| I remember seeing what looked like basically every city in the
| San Joaquin Valley seemed unusually highly ranked on a per-capita
| car theft list of US cities (e.g. Bakersfield, Stockton, Merced,
| Modesto), and further north into the Sacramento Valley (Redding,
| Yuba, Chico).
|
| Is it just sort of size effects of California, or is there
| something like systemic cat theft that is a particular thing? The
| major cities are also there, but the crazy part to me was it is
| basically like, the entire central valley.
| codegrappler wrote:
| This happened to me. Twice within a few weeks. Parked in a train
| commuter lot. I eventually had the mechanic screw some steel mesh
| to the bottom of my pickup to deter the thieves. Thankfully I
| kept comprehensive insurance on my vehicle so the out of pocket
| expense was $50. The insurance company did call to investigate
| the second time because they thought I was in on it.
| skt5 wrote:
| > Thankfully I kept comprehensive insurance on my vehicle so
| the out of pocket expense was $50.
|
| Hopefully the claim doesn't cause your premiums to increase in
| a meaningful way at renewal time.
| throwaway0a5e wrote:
| >Hopefully the claim doesn't cause your premiums to increase
| in a meaningful way at renewal time.
|
| Two theft claims won't raise his premiums.
|
| The other two thousand thefts in the general vicinity will.
| moltar wrote:
| Here's how it happens:
|
| https://youtu.be/EP3N4RwHd5k
| bananapizza wrote:
| You're obviously a white supremacist and racist. If you are not
| on the side of defunding the police, you are on the wrong side of
| history and probably harbor sympathies toward neo-Nazis, if you
| aren't already a full blown one yourself. Maybe have some
| compassion for once in your life, some people NEED to steal
| catalytic converters because of systemic racism and you should
| feel bad about wanting to have basic norms of law and order
| upheld. s/
| ehvatum wrote:
| Sadly, this really is the Bay Area administrative position on
| the matter.
| danSimmons44 wrote:
| What was the position? The thought police deleted the comment
| before the rest of us could see it.
| bananapizza wrote:
| It is indeed, to all of our detriment in my opinion. Won't
| stop the HN downvote brigade from attempting to quickly hide
| it to avoid having to address it, though.
|
| Edit, original comment below. It's very interesting, and to
| me, very telling, that HN seems to reach for censorship
| quicker than good-faith refutation of the core argument.
| Which here is simply that we have in fact lost the ability to
| enforce law in many areas, with a post hoc layer of
| rationalization bolted on, here stated sarcastically and
| labeled explicitly as such so as not to be interpreted in bad
| faith. Maybe someone could take the argument at its strongest
| and refute it? Naah, just flag it.
|
| You're obviously a white supremacist and racist. If you are
| not on the side of defunding the police, you are on the wrong
| side of history and probably harbor sympathies toward neo-
| Nazis, if you aren't already a full blown one yourself. Maybe
| have some compassion for once in your life, some people NEED
| to steal catalytic converters because of systemic racism and
| you should feel bad about wanting to have basic norms of law
| and order upheld. s/
| GonzaloQuero wrote:
| You're making a mockery of the talking points about
| defunding the police, then asking people to actually spend
| time debating you. Please, reconsider the way you argue
| about things.
| dang wrote:
| " _Don 't feed egregious comments by replying; flag them
| instead._"
|
| a.k.a. please don't feed the trolls
|
| https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
| bananapizza wrote:
| If you want to defund the police, how can you possibly
| prioritize catalytic converter theft, a non-violent
| crime? Aren't non-violent crimes what are being de-
| prioritized?
| GonzaloQuero wrote:
| By reinvesting the excess of money invested in the police
| into improving society for people, so that less people
| need to steal.
| bananapizza wrote:
| Let me try to understand your point of view. Are you in
| favor of abolishing the police? Do you believe crime will
| go away if we go forward with that?
| GonzaloQuero wrote:
| No, I'm not in favour of abolishing the police. Let me
| preface with saying that I'm not American, nor I live in
| the US, also, so this doesn't affect me.
|
| Once again, I'm not in favour of abolishing the police.
| As I said in my previous message, I'm in favour of
| reducing the expense on police and instead investing it
| on social programs.
|
| As I'm not in favour of abolishing, I won't argue your
| second point.
| throwaway0a5e wrote:
| You can both be wrong ;)
|
| There are plenty of poorer cities where the police have
| been involuntarily "defunded" by NYC or SF funding
| standards and they don't have the rampant petty crime
| that many west coast cities seem to.
|
| Defunding the police isn't the problem. IMO a stretched
| thin PD is a well behaved PD. The problem seems to be
| related to all the policy baggage that comes with the
| "defund the police" crowd.
| mschuster91 wrote:
| > There are plenty of poorer cities where the police have
| been involuntarily "defunded" by NYC or SF funding
| standards and they don't have the rampant petty crime
| that many west coast cities seem to.
|
| The thing is: where there are a lot of juicy targets
| (e.g. tourists), there will automatically be more petty
| crimes. As a robber you'll have more profit going around
| and snatching airpods or phones from a ride in the NYC
| subway than from walking around in some shoddy 'hood in a
| flyover state.
|
| > Defunding the police isn't the problem. IMO a stretched
| thin PD is a well behaved PD.
|
| Actually not, because a "stretched thin" force is more
| likely to shoot first or otherwise use excessive force to
| get a suspect under control and ask questions later than
| to use de-escalative tactics which require extensive
| training (in Germany cop training is a three year thing
| for exactly that reason vs. the average 21 weeks in the
| US). If you want police to approach sensitive stuff like
| domestic violence or rape in an appropriate manner, the
| officers will need to have both the training and the time
| for doing so.
|
| > The problem seems to be related to all the policy
| baggage that comes with the "defund the police" crowd.
|
| And what "policy baggage" is that? To require a social
| worker to come with and eventually be leading the
| response to a domestic violence call isn't baggage, it's
| the whole point of the thing.
| dang wrote:
| What you posted is not an "argument", just flamewar, and
| you've broken probably most of the site guidelines in just
| this thread alone. Please don't create accounts to do that
| with.
|
| Plenty of users have posted substantive comments on both
| sides of this issue. The idea that "HN" is out to get you
| because of your views is puerile when you're violating the
| rules so flagrantly.
|
| https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
| dang wrote:
| You can't troll HN like this and I've banned the account.
| Please don't create accounts to break HN's rules with.
|
| https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
| blinkingled wrote:
| Easy to install shields like this one from catshield
| https://catshield.com/ can be a somewhat effective deterrent
| given the thieves have to be able to remove it quickly without
| making noise.
|
| Also hybrids are more targeted for cat theft because they have
| more of the metals than normal cars to compensate for frequent
| engine stops and starts from cold.
| skt5 wrote:
| Parking in a strategic location (ex: on a hill, etc.) that
| makes it harder to get under the vehicle or jack it up might
| help too.
| 1-6 wrote:
| Never thought of that, sounds like a good idea if you live in
| San Francisco.
| l320093jj wrote:
| Our catalytic converter was stolen a few months ago. It was
| strange because we were parked in front of a government
| building -- library and courthouse -- and were only inside for
| about 15 minutes, in the afternoon. Came outside and the car
| sounded like the muffler was missing, or like I was driving an
| old tank.
|
| Our new car came with installation of a catshield. When talking
| to various autobody places, they were skeptical it would matter
| because if they'd cut out the catalytic converter, they could
| just cut out the shield. It would be nice to see if they had
| data on this, but I haven't seen any (I even asked our
| insurance agency if they knew of any analyses on it but they
| said they didn't).
| reducesuffering wrote:
| The thiefs like to be in and out very quickly for obvious
| reasons. Without the shield it's a couple minutes. If they
| jack it up and there's a shield, that's going to take 15
| minutes, they'll likely just abandon it as the risk/reward
| isn't there.
| 1-6 wrote:
| I was debating whether I wanted to add unnecessary holes to the
| bottom chassis. I wish I had done so.
| culopatin wrote:
| I don't understand how this would prevent someone with an angle
| grinder from cutting through it anyway. Especially the aluminum
| ones
| blinkingled wrote:
| Grinding metal makes noise and attracts attention. It's not a
| solution rather a deterrent to make it harder for the thieves
| to get to the cat without special tools.
| skt5 wrote:
| Do catalytic converters have the VIN etched on it like other
| vehicle parts do?
| kube-system wrote:
| No, the VIN is usually only put on permanent parts of a
| vehicle. Catalytic converters usually last a very long time but
| can eventually wear out.
| skt5 wrote:
| What's is considered a permanent part of a vehicle? It seems
| like there are some people etching the VIN on the heat shield
| but I don't see any evidence of that deterring thefts.
| kube-system wrote:
| I mean "permanent" in a general sense. It varies by
| manufacturer. For most common cars, manufacturers put the
| VIN on a few places on the frame of the vehicle.
| [deleted]
| worewood wrote:
| I don't see how this could deter the theft, as they are cut
| open and the shell is discarded anyway
| skt5 wrote:
| Yeah - the shell / heat shield would be discarded but I
| wonder if having the VIN on the actual converter somewhere
| would deter theft.
| RileyJames wrote:
| Had both my catalytic converters stolen off my E250 in Vancouver
| Canada, parked in the backyard of a mates house.
|
| Frustrating because the van wasn't worth replacing them. But
| surprisingly it was legal to replace them with straight pipe.
| Obviously ethically dubious, due to increased emissions. But a
| better option that scraping the vehicle prematurely and
| purchasing a new one.
|
| Either way. I'd be looking at the demand side. The thieves aren't
| melting them down, they're flogging them for cash. Who's paying
| cash for clearly hastily sawn off catalytic converters in bulk?
| VBprogrammer wrote:
| I don't quite understand why the authorities can't hit these guys
| in the supply line. Make it impossible to shift a bare catalytic
| converter by cracking down on scrap merchants who would be buying
| them.
| jl6 wrote:
| They're melted down and the result is pure untraceable metal.
| Rhodium vendors can't be common though. What's the story the
| fences give? "This is all from my small-scale family rhodium
| mine"?
| janekm wrote:
| Small-scale / illegal mines are a big issue in China and
| India, so I suppose it can be commingled into that chain:
| https://e360.yale.edu/features/china-wrestles-with-the-
| toxic...
| jeffreyrogers wrote:
| Most platinum group metals come from Africa. Not that the
| transparency is any better there.
| 123pie123 wrote:
| in the uk there are laws requiring logs and proof of identity
| when trading scrap metal.
|
| I suspect with Catalytic Converter thefts, the CATs are small
| enough and light enough to be shipped abroad
| kube-system wrote:
| These laws are common in the US too.
| iammisc wrote:
| Same in Oregon. I was on a grand jury here and metal
| dealing without paperwork is a felony. I asked the DA and
| he said this is why
| mPReDiToR wrote:
| In my city (YO1) we had a gang of Eastern Europeans
| committing this crime regularly and in quantity.
|
| They were eventually caught with container loads of cat's
| on their way to Europe.
| londons_explore wrote:
| Rhodium is so valuable you can fit tens of millions of
| dollars of it in a suitcase.
|
| And then you sell it to an actual rhodium mine who just so
| happens to be particularly productive that month.
| dragontamer wrote:
| > And then you sell it to an actual rhodium mine who just
| so happens to be particularly productive that month.
|
| Surely its easier to keep an eye on all rhodium mines,
| rather than trying to keep an eye on all scrap metal yards.
| GLGirty wrote:
| Yes the only thing in the way is a huge international
| lobby industry that pays politicians to turn a blind eye
| to systemic labour and environmental exploitation.
| VBprogrammer wrote:
| I haven't looked into it in detail but I would be very
| surprised if this process was as simple as melting down some
| stolen lead flashing, surely it isn't the kind of thing you
| can do with a camping stove and an old pot?
|
| There must be limited facilities with the ability to extract
| and purify the rhodium content.
| newguy886 wrote:
| I could. But not with a camping stove and I may have to
| feed some additional oxygen. But yes, doable in your
| backyard
| vkou wrote:
| > I don't quite understand why the authorities can't hit these
| guys in the supply line. Make it impossible to shift a bare
| catalytic converter by cracking down on scrap merchants who
| would be buying them.
|
| For the same reason that they don't shut down the pawn shops
| buying stolen goods right across the street from the payday
| loan place.
|
| Because it requires actual police work, and because the people
| running them are 'local businessmen' with pull.
| [deleted]
| _huayra_ wrote:
| It's things like this that make it such a shock to go to an
| extremely safe country / area. All the little scripts one has to
| keep track of to be "safe and secure" in the US (e.g.
| instinctively locking your doors all the way to learning that you
| can't park in SF to take your girlfriend to lunch on your way to
| drop her off at the airport because a big suitcase is a target
| for these rampant smash-and-grabs; unfortunately I had to learn
| this one the hard way) seem absurd if the whole society functions
| well.
|
| Figuring out how to park on a hill to deter cat theft, buy
| security nuts for wheels to avoid wheel theft, using special
| security nuts for one's bike parts to avoid bike component theft
| (not to mention having to find indoor bike parking because brazen
| daylight bike theft just seems to be tolerated now) are the sort
| of tricks one learns to adapt to, but when you visit a place like
| Japan, Singapore, or Norway, all of this stuff makes you realize
| how dystopic things have gotten in the US.
|
| Not saying that no country is without flaws, but the little
| "quality of life hacks" one must do to be safe in the US don't
| make up for things descending as far into chaos as they have.
| throwaway0a5e wrote:
| Petty theft patterns in states that have passed ballot measures
| or counties that have taken executive actions reducing the
| penalties on petty theft to the point where the ROI is positive
| even if you get regularly caught should not be taken as
| indicative of the entire country.
|
| I live in a city that most of HN would turn up their nose at.
| It's nothing like what people from the west coast describe as
| the status quo there. And it's not some city in a red state
| that spends big bucks on law and order either.
| systemvoltage wrote:
| Having lived in several west coast cities, is largely a west
| coast phenomenon and policies enacted by these local
| governments. SF, Portland, LA, Seattle, etc. all have roots
| in common thread of policies (reducing or eliminating
| penalties for crime, dysfunctional governments, housing
| crisis, reduction in police funding, etc).
|
| > In 2017 Portland ranked third. Now it has dropped to 66th
| out of 80: https://www.economist.com/united-
| states/2021/06/12/portland-...
| iammisc wrote:
| Yeah my parents moved from LA in california to rural
| Washington. People told them a kinds of things including that
| they wouldn't feel welcome .. we are brown skinned and they
| immigrated here. This area is deep red
|
| The city they moved to is hours from am airport. Smack dab
| nowhere.
|
| They didn't find it dangerous at all. To the contrary people
| there were extremely welcoming ... Very neighborly. They
| could leave their door unlocked and not be bothered.
|
| The occasional (and I mean occasional) theft was big news and
| the guy was caught
|
| Far cry from getting our house vandalized with gang graffiti
| Loughla wrote:
| Maybe it's your definition of 'extremely safe' areas?
|
| I don't own security nuts, or special locks for my bike, or
| have ever had my home/car broken into despite not even knowing
| where my house key is at this point and never locking my car.
|
| I don't understand the comparison to the other countries,
| either. Are you saying they don't have petty crime?
| _huayra_ wrote:
| Ah I should be more specific: urban areas in those countries.
| The level of petty crime in any major city in the US is far
| higher than any city in those countries I mentioned.
|
| In non-urban areas in the US things are better for sure, but
| you still have to deal with other things like having complete
| asshole neighbors that you really can't do anything about
| because small quality of life crimes like partying every
| night with loud music is not a crime.
|
| If you move to rural areas this goes down even further, but
| then you give up a lot of amenities.
| gnicholas wrote:
| Just for the record, this is happening in sleepy suburban
| areas also, like Palo Alto. People report CC thefts
| regularly on NextDoor, and urge neighbors to retrofit their
| Priuses so they don't fall prey as well.
|
| Locked bikes are stolen in broad daylight in front of
| grocery stores and at schools. It's probably not as bad as
| SF, but it is still an issue in the suburbs.
| vilhelm_s wrote:
| I really doubt that. If we focus in particular on bike
| theft (one of the examples above), some webpage says that
| Norway had 60k bike thefts in 2004, 20k of which was
| reported to the police[1]. This is out of a population of
| 4.5 million. Some other page says that in New York City,
| there are 75k bikes stolen per year with 15k reported to
| the police[2]. This is out of a population of 8.4 million.
|
| So all of Norway (rural and urban areas together) had a
| higher per-capita rate of bike theft than New York City
| (which is all urban).
|
| [1] http://www.sykkeltyveri.no/bicycle_theft.html [2]
| https://www.bicyclehabitat.com/articles/security-pg80.htm
| juanani wrote:
| Aren't you forgetting to include the percentage of
| population that owns/uses a bike? Hey but links to
| statistics are cool, makes you sound super smart dunnit?
| jnsaff2 wrote:
| Now to make things interesting, want to adjust this for
| per capita bike ownership or usage? Otherwise this is
| could just be picking places favorable to the point you
| want to make?
| dnautics wrote:
| I dunno. Staying in an Airbnb in Seoul, I woke at ~1am to
| someone banging on my door and yelling for about five
| minutes. Pretty sure if it weren't locked, I'd be in some
| sort of trouble.
| zaphod12 wrote:
| This is a really awfully broad generalization. Crime in SF,
| NY, Chicago, Boston, LA or Houston are all vastly different
| situations. Even with shootings up a ton this past year,
| NYC is still safer per capita than places like Savannah. SF
| seems to have gotten very out of control, though. Fwiw, I
| would never leave my car unlocked anywhere, but I also
| wouldn't feel weird about leaving a bag out. And there is a
| ton of pick pocketing and petty theft in places like
| Barcelona, Lisbon, Rome and Paris. Big cities require some
| attentiveness.
| economusty wrote:
| Mostly in Democrat runs cities. Go ahead, down vote me because
| you can't handle the truth.
| reidjs wrote:
| When I owned a car in SF, I always put a visible sign that said
| 'please don't break in' on it.
|
| One of the reasons I decided to sell that car was the daily
| anxiety of it getting broken into.
| icedistilled wrote:
| I occasionally saw signs that said "nothing of value" on car
| windows near where I lived, but I always figured the thieves
| would assume that's what someone who kept stuff in their car
| would post. Did you get broken into a lot?
| tomc1985 wrote:
| That kind of advise was par for course living in Amsterdam
| Zuidoost, as well as travelling around Berlin, Madrid,
| Santiago.... I'd say it applies to being anywhere with a
| significant crime rate or poverty burden
|
| Hardly unique to the US
| alex_c wrote:
| >Figuring out how to park on a hill to deter cat theft
|
| Can you explain this one?
| darrylb42 wrote:
| For a low car you would need to jack it up to get to the
| catalytic converter. Shouldn't do that on a hill as the car
| could fall off the jack. Usually you only hear about pickup
| trucks or larger vehicles getting their cats stolen as you
| can get under more easily.
| jeffreyrogers wrote:
| Most parts of the US aren't like that. Even California wasn't
| like that not too long ago.
| chitowneats wrote:
| Local policy matters.
| f38zf5vdt wrote:
| I garner a _lot_ of downvotes every time I mention that the US
| in many locales shares more in common with a third world
| country than a first world country. So many people seem
| addicted to the notion of US cultural superiority because their
| jobs pay the most. Go on YouTube or Google street view and see
| for yourself.
|
| https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC1MveHv1lTVBzdM5VYZkcBQ/vid...
|
| https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=opo3OuUae5w
|
| https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0UNvEcR_jM8
|
| https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=otwgkeJyuSo
|
| https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cKutkXy1Eeo
| systemvoltage wrote:
| Instead of anecdotes, how about we look at objective data?
|
| https://www.oecdbetterlifeindex.org/
| _huayra_ wrote:
| Yeah the "highest salaries = best country!" trend is strong
| on HN, but high salaries can't really buy you the things you
| get basically for free in a different country due to culture
| / government differences. Turns out you can buy a lot of
| infrastructure and social welfare programs with all the tax
| revenue not spent on $100 rolls of toilet paper and bombs for
| secret wars halfway around the world cuz "freedumb!".
|
| Even when people point out how those "other countries" may
| tax you like crazy (which is only half true), the amount of
| time wealth you get back is significant, e.g. grade-school
| kids commonly commute to and from school by public transit
| where I live now (although sometimes with a chaperone if
| they're too young) and women go running at night in the
| relatively unlit park near my house, which I never saw where
| I lived in the US (even in relatively safe burbs). You also
| don't really have to own a gigantic money-sucking vehicle
| that you have to worry about insuring, parking, damaging,
| etc, in most European cities either.
| [deleted]
| icedistilled wrote:
| Certain suburbs like Irvine CA are for safety but not for
| diversity and culture of a city. Choose one.
| iammisc wrote:
| Irvine is more diverse than the majority of the USA... What
| are you talking about?
| danSimmons44 wrote:
| It is a shame that all of the "Culture and Diversity" is so
| prone to stealing catalytic converters in the middle of the
| night. That is really cool that you can get Ethiopian food at
| 2AM, but I don't like all of the things that come with it.
| icedistilled wrote:
| What do you mean by that? By culture and diversity I meant
| the hubbub of the city, with a ton going on and all types
| of stores, bars, and restaurants but the way it's phrased
| in your comment sounds a lot more pointed and not at all
| what I meant.
| bredren wrote:
| This alter will get matched with your main. You might as
| well just speak your mind with that account.
___________________________________________________________________
(page generated 2021-06-24 23:02 UTC)