[HN Gopher] Saffron as an Antidepressant
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Saffron as an Antidepressant
Author : gdubs
Score : 105 points
Date : 2021-06-22 19:33 UTC (3 hours ago)
(HTM) web link (www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov)
(TXT) w3m dump (www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov)
| whycombagator wrote:
| As far as dosage:
|
| "For chronic supplementation, take 15mg of saffron, twice a day.
| This is the advised upper limit for constant supplementation.
| Preliminary evidence suggests that doubling this dose may have a
| toxic effect after eight weeks of continuous usage. Acute, single
| doses of saffron, can be as high as 200mg.
|
| Saffron can be supplemented by taking water extracts of the
| stigma (the red part of the plant, used as a spice) or by using
| the dehydrated stigma itself. Some evidence suggests that the
| petals of saffron may also be effective.
|
| Saffron can be taken twice a day in a supplement form, or at
| meals as a spice.
|
| Doses above 1,200mg may cause nasea and vomiting."[0]
|
| [0] https://examine.com/supplements/saffron/
|
| (Also for those unaware, Examine.com is very good)
| twohearted wrote:
| They call it mellow yellow
| [deleted]
| cwkoss wrote:
| I think the psychoactive effects of dietary ingredients are
| really interesting, and an area of research that deserves more
| attention.
|
| "Even in their usual intake range, a variety of spices including
| vanilla, black pepper, cacao, chili peppers, cloves, saffron,
| cinnamon, ginger, nutmeg, and turmeric have been described as
| having mild effects on mood"
|
| https://www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/fpsyt.2019.0059...
|
| I think we have relatively little understanding of how these
| psychoactive effects interact with co-ingestion of other
| ingredients. Certain ingredients can alter the metabolism of
| other ingredients (ex. black pepper and tumeric both inhibit MAO,
| potentiate each other and potentiate other ingredients). I find
| it plausible that some sort of 'spiced stew' consumed at a
| particular frequency could have clinically significant levels of
| therapeutic effect.
| cwkoss wrote:
| Also plausible that a significant source of variance in
| pharmacological drugs' effects are due to differences in diet.
|
| Ex. are there statistically significant differences in the
| effects of SSRIs between patients with (high || low) use of
| black pepper/turmeric in their diets?
| ASalazarMX wrote:
| TIL saffron is harmless in regular cooking, but toxic above 5g,
| and lethal above 20g. Most presentations are less than 5g anyway,
| because authentic saffron is expensive.
| stronglikedan wrote:
| Anecdotal, but it's helped me out of more than one bout of
| depression. I take ~0.12g per day for ~12 weeks when I realize
| I'm in one. I don't know if the brand matters, but I started with
| high quality, so I'm not taking any chances on others. I take
| half of one of these sachets per day (cheaper at whole foods):
| https://www.amazon.com/Krokos-Kozanis-Saffron-Powder-Coopera...
| wildmanx wrote:
| Now I get why a popular xmas time pastry in Sweden is saffron-
| based.
| FabHK wrote:
| Fun fact: (maybe!)
|
| Saffron is, per unit of weight, the most expensive thing you can
| buy in many supermarkets.
|
| (That's my conjecture after noticing that the saffron in German
| supermarkets is about 10,000 to 30,000 EUR/kg, or 68,000 for the
| bio certified, hand picked, from a women-run enterprise:
|
| https://shop.rewe.de/p/herbaria-safran-faeden/VJ7R7E3DA )
|
| Any other contenders?
| OJFord wrote:
| By weight?! Wow yeah, by far surely. Though by some sort of
| hand-wavy measure of 'amount you use', vanilla might take the
| lead.
|
| Ignoring the whopping (!) 10g bulk buy, cheapest I can get from
| Ocado in the UK is PS4.68 for a gram. Vanilla pods start at PS3
| each (and no cheaper on Amazon other than in big bags, happened
| to be looking recently) and when you use one you use one;
| whereas the saffron probably won't be used all at once, again
| for a hand-wavy notion of 'similar sort of style/quantity'
| thing (despite obviously being totally different if one has
| vanilla and the other saffron..).
| awestroke wrote:
| If you can't afford this antioxidant, try the slightly cheaper
| alternative: gold.
| nerfhammer wrote:
| https://www.amazon.com/s?k=saffron+capsules
|
| I have no idea if saffron "extract" is effectively the same
| thing though
| hammock wrote:
| Effective dose of saffron is much smaller than that of gold :)
| pie420 wrote:
| Reads like an undergrad class project and not a real study
| FabHK wrote:
| That's maybe a bit unfair, but yes, they could have run it by
| an editor proficient in English:
|
| > In summary further research required to get a good quality
| data regarding saffron mechanism of action, effectiveness, and
| safety. [...] While results of increased mental wellness
| coupled with good short-term basic safety profile recommend
| saffron may be an exceedingly efficient alternative approach
| for the treating depression. It is at present unidentified that
| the positive results of saffron obtained during preliminary
| trials will proceeds in long-term health benefits until well-
| controlled and longer-term research are achieved.
| codelord wrote:
| I feel like people in the west need to become more familiar with
| Persian cooking. Every year I learn that one more ingredient that
| we commonly use in Persian cooking is good for your health. So
| based on this definitive evidence I'm gonna conclude everything
| we eat is good for you. To get you ahead here are some other
| things to try:
|
| 1. Sabzi Khordan: Elevate your breakfast with Sabzi Khordan, a
| mixed of herbs that are commonly eaten as breakfast with cheese
| and walnuts.
|
| 2. Drink properly brewed tea: If your idea of tea is what you get
| from Starbucks, you don't know what tea is. Try Persian brewed
| black tea.
|
| 3. Persian barberry rice: Try Persian style rice cooked with
| rice, salt, butter, barberries, and saffron.
|
| 4. Add turmeric to pretty much every stew.
|
| 5. Try Fesenjan, Ghormeh Sabzi, and Khoresh Gheymeh.
| brahadeesh wrote:
| It's not unique to Persian cooking, but there is wisdom in most
| cultural foods. I have been cooking a lot during the pandemic
| and every month I discover a new fermented food that has
| "recently" been found to be a superfood - kombucha, kefir,
| kimchi, soy sauce, mole sauce, sourdough etc. That is not to
| talk about other ingredients like turmeric, chiles, lentils and
| other stuff that add nutritional value.
|
| EDIT: I wanted to add something I just remembered from the
| Netflix docuseries "Cooked" - "If you were to eat grains and
| nothing but grains, you will die sooner rather than later from
| lack of one nutrient or another. But if you were to eat real
| fermented bread made from the same grains, you will live much
| longer". Something about fermentation is truly nourishing.
| chromaton wrote:
| In the 70's it was yogurt.
| tartoran wrote:
| Yogurt is still going strong, isn't it?
| gameswithgo wrote:
| This may just be more an artifact that foods are complex
| enough that a great many foods can be characterized as super-
| foods. Also probably none of them really have any profound
| effect on overall health. If you get old you will have seen
| many, many dietary miracles come and go where nothing much
| came of them.
| dataviz1000 wrote:
| I remember listening to an NPR story 2 or 3 decades ago which
| I can't find about how White people in the United States
| (probably referring to health food eating yuppies in NYC and
| Northern California) adopted a staple diet very close to an
| African American diet in the 40's and 50's while the modern
| African American diet more often included what White people
| were eating in the 40's and 50's.
|
| If anyone has any links to stories about how diets have
| change by demographics over time in the United States, please
| share.
| can16358p wrote:
| I agree with you, but a quick note for potential readers:
| most of the soy sauce from your grocery store has extreme
| amounts of salt in it, beware.
| brahadeesh wrote:
| Yes, you will want to look for "Shoyu" in a regular grocery
| store that will probably be made of fermented soy beans.
| You could also make the trip out to an Asian grocery store
| - a simple yet effective way to start an adventure :)
| doublesocket wrote:
| Tamari is a good answer to this problem (soy sauce made
| without wheat). Depending on the brand it has less salt
| than regular soy sauce and, as it has a richer flavour, you
| need less of it.
| cowmoo728 wrote:
| Most American grocery store soy sauce is also not authentic
| soy sauce. Soy sauce has to be aged from soy, salt, wheat,
| and a fermentation starter. American grocery store soy
| sauce is typically salt water with flavor additives.
|
| Ingredients for a cheap American soy sauce: soybean, corn,
| water, sugar, sodium benzoate, salt, caramel color,
| monosodium glutamate, citric acid, potassium sorbate.
| TedDoesntTalk wrote:
| I still want to try Japanese Natto but can't find it:
|
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Natt%C5%8D
|
| Supposed to taste quite bad for Westerners.
| wyre wrote:
| I have some Thai fermented tofu in my fridge. It tastes
| like a very strong soft cheese.
| gniv wrote:
| Here in NJ I could find it in an Asian supermarket (in the
| freezers).
| nerfhammer wrote:
| Go Go Curry in NYC has it
| ummonk wrote:
| Having tried stinky tofu and been unable to stand it, I
| stay away from anything similar.
|
| I rely on aged cheese to get my bacteria byproducts (esp.
| Vitamin K2).
| wisty wrote:
| Stinky tofu is like the blue cheese of tofus. It's quite
| nice.
|
| Natto ... I'm not such a fan.
| weaksauce wrote:
| good god was stinky tofu awful when i tried it. smelled
| like sock and tasted worse. I almost want to see if my
| tastes have changed enough over the years to appreciate
| it now but back then it was simply awful.
| andy_ppp wrote:
| Stinky tofu in Taiwan smelt as though someone had burried
| their colostomy bag (adding maybe rubbish and some milk
| to curdle it) for a couple of months and opened it at the
| dinner table. Fetid doesn't even cover it. I'm amazed you
| ate it. Natto by comparison is just a bit like gross
| cheese.
| trainsplanes wrote:
| Stinky tofu smells a little funky, but once you take a
| bite, it's juicy and savory. Taiwanese stuff definitely
| stinks more, but the mainland Chinese varieties don't
| really stink at all and retain a savory taste.
|
| Natto literally has the smell and slimy, sticky texture
| of, well, semen. It's easy to wonder whether someone left
| a bunch of used tissues out or if they simply forgot to
| toss out their used natto package.
| AriaMinaei wrote:
| > So based on this definitive evidence I'm gonna conclude
| everything we eat is good for you
|
| More conclusive evidence that everything we eat is good for you
| [1], I recently discovered skyr, a traditional Icelandic dairy
| product [2] with an unusually high protein/calories ratio.
|
| It looks and tastes very much like the homemade yogurt of my
| grandma, "mast kise-i." And the preparation procedure of skyr
| and mast kise-i are almost the same.
|
| Anyway, skyr is good for you. It replaces the protein shake,
| plus it has the other nutrients of a good dairy product, goes
| with all kinds of foods, and costs no more than yogurt.
|
| [1] :P
|
| [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Skyr
| mabub24 wrote:
| Another interesting product is Kefir:
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kefir
|
| It's a bit like liquid yogurt.
| knicholes wrote:
| Wouldn't we be able to look at societies that ate certain foods
| to see if they lived longer/more healthy lives? I think that'd
| be a smoking gun for which foods have the most beneficial
| ingredients.
| Engineering-MD wrote:
| Too many degrees of freedom to be useful in practice,
| although people have tried this in the past. Mediterranean
| diet notably had been suggested from these style studies.
| tootie wrote:
| Saffron is used pretty heavily in Indian and Spanish cuisine
| too. Indian food is pretty good example of a cuisine with all
| sorts of ingredients with beneficial health properties
| (including good tea) but is also loaded with fat, starch and
| sugar. European cuisine is not too dissimilar. There's health
| benefits of ingredients like cinnamon, garlic and coffee but
| not when you mix them with high-calorie garbage.
| joegahona wrote:
| > Persian brewed black tea
|
| Can you buy this in stores? Brand preference?
| fny wrote:
| Sadaf is a staple. I'm a fan of the cardamom varieties.
| selimthegrim wrote:
| It can be hard to find the right cheese for sabzi khordan. Also
| some people find drinking tea out of the saucer weird.
| newhotelowner wrote:
| > Also some people find drinking tea out of the saucer weird.
|
| I love drinking out of the saucer. It taste different than
| drinking from a cup. It taste different drinking from a
| stainless steel cup vs glass cup too.
|
| My favorite saucer is Corelle butterfly gold.
| jpster wrote:
| I was very interested in Laura Ingalls Wilder when I was
| younger, as a result of reading her Little House on the
| Prairie books. An anecdote about her father, Charles "Pa"
| Ingalls drinking from the saucer always stayed with me.
| Thanks for teaching me that saucer drinking is still alive
| and well.
| https://henscratches.wordpress.com/2017/01/18/wilder-
| wednesd...
| codelord wrote:
| Saucer is optional. I drink directly from the cup. Make sure
| the cup is made of clear glass though to see the color of the
| tea.
| angrais wrote:
| Why does where you drink from it matter, let alone its
| transparency?
| OJFord wrote:
| Do you drink wine, or anything where you even
| occasionally care how 'open' the glass is? A saucer's way
| more open than a cup. I'm sure there are vicious debates
| over flutes vs. saucers on champagne-appreciation.net
| forums or whatever!
|
| Not at all the same, but texture too. Meringues are I
| think the best example of that.
| codelord wrote:
| Actually color can affect the perceived taste.
| Red/vibrant colors make the drink taste more sweet.
| cyberpunk wrote:
| Dunno about Persian style tea; but the pu'erh I often
| drink tastes significantly better from a sake cup vs a
| "normal" double walled bodum tea glass. I can't really
| explain why, cup shape does affect hiw much you drink per
| sip, maybe the nose is involved.. Or it's all bollocks
| and completely in my head.
|
| Either way, sake cup is the way to go for puerh ;)
| okprod wrote:
| Real puerh is very good for you. Anecdotal obviously but
| descendants on my father's side eat healthy and drink a
| lot of puerh daily, regularly live to 100+.
| gknoy wrote:
| I believe they meant that the color of the tea matters,
| as an indicator of how thoroughly/well it's been brewed,
| rather than the fact that you can see it or not.
| [deleted]
| dragosmocrii wrote:
| Do you call the barberry rice pilaf or plov? It's popular in
| Eastern Europe and it's so much tastier than the rice cooked in
| the western world.
| pazimzadeh wrote:
| Totally agree.
|
| Berberine, found in Barberries, seems to have very interesting
| properties:
|
| Cancer fighting: MDM2 inhibition-mediated autophagy contributes
| to the pro-apoptotic effect of berberine in p53-null leukemic
| cells https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/31881227
|
| Synergistic antitumor effect of melatonin with several
| chemotherapeutic drugs on human Ewing sarcoma cancer cells:
| potentiation of the extrinsic apoptotic pathway
| https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20025643
|
| Melatonin inhibits AP-2b/hTERT, NF-kB/COX-2 and Akt/ERK and
| activates caspase/Cyto C signaling to enhance the antitumor
| activity of berberine in lung cancer cells
| https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4823085/
|
| Anticancer effect of berberine based on experimental animal
| models of various cancers: a systematic review and meta-
| analysis
| https://bmccancer.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/s12885-...
|
| Berberine enhances chemosensitivity to irinotecan in colon
| cancer via inhibition of NF-kB
| https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/24173769/
|
| Berberine and Curcumin Target Survivin and STAT3 in Gastric
| Cancer Cells and Synergize Actions of Standard Chemotherapeutic
| 5-Fluorouracil
| https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/01635581.2015.1...
|
| Pre-treatment with berberine enhances effect of 5-fluorouracil
| and cisplatin in HEP2 laryngeal cancer cell line
| https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/29460537
|
| Decreasing blood glucose levels (beneficial for cancer patients
| as well)`: Efficacy of Berberine in Patients with Type 2
| Diabetes https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2410097/
|
| Liu S., Fang Y., Shen H., Xu W., Li H.: Berberine sensitizes
| ovarian cancer cells to cisplatin through miR-21/PDCD4 axis.
| Acta. Biochim. Biophys. Sin., 2013; 45: 756-762
|
| Pandey M.K., Sung B., Kunnumakkara A.B., Sethi G., Chaturvedi
| M.M., Aggarwal B.B.: Berberine modifies cysteine 179 of IkBa
| kinase, suppresses nuclear factor-kB-regulated antiapoptotic
| gene products, and potentiates apoptosis. Cancer Res., 2008;
| 68: 5370-5379
|
| But apparently dosage is key, and there is such a thing as too
| small a dose!
|
| Hormetic Effect of Berberine Attenuates the Anticancer Activity
| of Chemotherapeutic Agents
| https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4589364/
|
| Sodium Caprate promotes absorptions of Berberine in the
| intestine https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/20237966/
|
| Also barberries tastes good.
| mike503 wrote:
| I was taking berberine, it can wreck your stomach if you
| don't take it with some food, I was advised that by my doctor
| and then realized why. I was only taking it once a day too.
| maininformer wrote:
| 6. chips o mast ;)
|
| But I disagree with the tea.
|
| I thought about this and I think the way the persian drink tea
| might be a sign of economic hardship: we put a handful of dried
| tea leaves in a pot and brew it ad infinitum on the samavar.
| This causes the tea to over brew and let out a very bitter
| taste, but also allows for a longer lasting supply. Then to
| counter the bitterness we add rock candy or sugar to it.
|
| I prefer to brew the black tea in hot water but not too much; I
| still like saffron rock candy in it some times; but at this
| point my ancestral guilt is ablaze cause its a luxury to throw
| away tea for a cup when u can squeeze a pot out of it.
| the_af wrote:
| Isn't saffron ultra expensive? It is in my country, at least.
| Prohibitively so.
| chrisa wrote:
| This paper uses the petals (in one case they say leaves, but
| everywhere else they way petals), specifically because they
| aren't as expensive - so it seems the petals have the same
| chemicals as the stigma for this test
| chrisa wrote:
| This seems to be combining a couple of studies; the primary one
| seems to be 40 people over 6 weeks using the petals of saffron
| (but in another place said "leaves", so I'm not sure which is
| correct), but it's interesting that the petals have the effect
| and not just the stigma which is what is called "saffron" for
| cooking
|
| They also mentioned that it _might_ work by affecting serotonin
| in the brain, but no one actually knows yet; and in the
| conclusion they mention how this is only a first step at
| understanding the effects.
|
| So: looks kind of promising, but by no means a finished study
| yet. (also there were warnings about taking too much as it can be
| toxic and damaging for pregnancy so... read that carefully before
| buying some I suppose :) )
| bigmattystyles wrote:
| >> They also mentioned that it _might_ work by affecting
| serotonin in the brain, but no one actually knows yet;
|
| I don't even think we know with regards to any substance, i.e
| even why SSRI work - I think we have some good hypothesis, but
| nothing conclusive. I've even seen an ad on CNN for tardive
| dyskinesia that says 'the <drug> is thought to do something to
| dopamine' - Doesn't exactly inspire confidence but having
| suffered from mental conditions, I'd still be willing to try
| it.
| chrisa wrote:
| Yes, that's true; like you say, no one even quite knows how
| SSRIs work, so this looks promising! Hopefully future studies
| show similar effects without some of the SSRI side effects
| defaultname wrote:
| As you mention, most SSRI ads specifically note that it is
| _thought_ to work by inhibiting serotonin reuptake...maybe.
| There isn 't even strong proof that serotonin plays the part
| popularly believed.
|
| But SSRIs work for many people, and do seem to have an
| effect, so the theoretical is good enough for now.
| PragmaticPulp wrote:
| > As you mention, most SSRI ads specifically note that it
| is thought to work by inhibiting serotonin
| reuptake...maybe. There isn't even strong proof that
| serotonin plays the part popularly believed.
|
| The "chemical imbalance" theory hasn't been taken seriously
| for decades. It's a myth that psychiatrists think that
| SSRIs are compensating for low serotonin. We've known for a
| long time that the actual anti-depressant effects come from
| somewhere downstream that isn't fully understood yet. This
| isn't really a new discovery. We've known from the start
| that SSRIs inhibit serotonin reuptake within hours of
| taking the first dose, but the full antidepressant effect
| can lag by weeks.
|
| That doesn't mean that serotonin isn't involved in the
| therapeutic action of SSRIs, though. Occupying around 80%
| of the serotonin transporters is necessary to bring about
| the antidepressant effects of different SSRIs. So we do
| know that inhibiting serotonin reuptake is almost certainly
| the mechanism that kicks off the chain of events that
| ultimately produces the antidepressant effect, but we also
| know that the antidepressant effect doesn't come directly
| from this inhibition.
|
| This is a good article that explains debunks the myth that
| psychiatry believes the "chemical imbalance" or "low
| serotonin" theories:
| https://www.psychiatrictimes.com/view/debunking-two-
| chemical...
| throayobviousl wrote:
| Because SSRIs take weeks to work, it is theorized that they
| actual modify DNA expression and other things that are slow
| to action.
|
| Serotonin itself has little to do with depression at the
| synaptic level
| The_rationalist wrote:
| Don't disregard scientific knowledge like that. Many (albeit
| not all) drugs have been extensively tested at least by close
| to exhaustively testing receptor binding sensitivity. Except
| for the extremely rare drugs that have very atypical action
| mechanism it allows to understand to a decent extent what it
| does pharmacologically. But also, understanding how a drug
| work isn't necessary for taking the risk of trying it given
| that most CNS (except DRA) drugs are "safe" especially if
| combined with potent neuroprotectors (anti oxidants, NMDA
| antagonists, etc) However even if the risk is low, I don't
| understand your motive to try it. The only one would be to
| advance scientific knowledge by self testing. But if the
| motive is for egoistic and not altruistic then there are much
| more proved antidepressants out there with small side effect
| profiles.
| bigmattystyles wrote:
| Oh - I muddled my phrasing - I agree with you, I was saying
| I would try a medication with historical, industry and
| regulatory backing even if we didn't understand exactly how
| it worked - not the saffron. That being said, I'm now
| planning to make paella...
| inter_netuser wrote:
| why aren't DRA safe?
| LatteLazy wrote:
| You'd be amazed how little extra effort goes into
| pharmaceutical studies for antidepressants. They're mostly n<1k
| people, under 6months long, with no mechanism firmly
| established...
| Bud wrote:
| I mean, who cares if it works medically as an antidepressant?
| Just thinking about eating anything with saffron in it
| automatically makes me feel happier. :)
| sillyquiet wrote:
| Unrelated but interesting, many medieval recipes included
| saffron, especially in pie crusts (coffins).
|
| https://giveitforth.blogspot.com/2019/03/harleian-ms-279-ab-...
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