[HN Gopher] LibreCellular
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LibreCellular
Author : pabs3
Score : 336 points
Date : 2021-06-21 09:15 UTC (13 hours ago)
(HTM) web link (librecellular.org)
(TXT) w3m dump (librecellular.org)
| captainmuon wrote:
| Does anybody know if there is a libre 4G _modem_ (I mean like the
| client part, what goes into a phone)?
| thepete2 wrote:
| Not entirely sure, but I think there are efforts to open "free"
| the pinephone's modem [0]
|
| [0] https://wiki.pine64.org/wiki/PinePhone#Modem
| newhouseb wrote:
| There are _many_ turtles all the way down here:
|
| - The Pinephone uses a Quectel EG25-G, which is a System on a
| Module that combines a baseband modem with the necessary RF
| front-end bits and power needs.
|
| - The Quectel EG25-G itself, uses a Qualcomm chipset (the
| Qualcomm 9607).
|
| - Qualcomm chipsets in this category tend to have an ARM
| component and and the actual modem bits which are combination
| of ARM and Hexagon DSP cores that you talk to over an
| interface called "QMI."
|
| I'd expect that if Pinephone reached scale (and they hadn't
| found an alternative) they would just buy the Qualcomm
| chipsets directly and not have to "free" themselves from
| Quectel's "integration" that translates between QMI and AT
| commands (which are miserable) or whatever else Quectel has
| exposed an an API.
|
| This quirk of modern modems, where you (as a small scale
| manufacturer) can't buy the chipset itself unless packaged up
| and marked up by someone like Quectel or Sierra Wireless
| makes me absolutely livid.
| MayeulC wrote:
| > I'd expect that if Pinephone reached scale (and they
| hadn't found an alternative) they would just buy the
| Qualcomm chipsets directly and not have to "free"
| themselves from Quectel's "integration" that translates
| between QMI and AT commands (which are miserable) or
| whatever else Quectel has exposed an an API.
|
| Not really. The USB modem was chosen as it provides
| isolation from the closed-source blobs that run on the
| modem. This way, the modem doesn't have access to the main
| memory. Pine Store Ltd (the commercial entity) being based
| in china, they certainly could have sourced a SoC
| integrating a 4G modem, but there's already a zillion
| devices like that, the idea was to build something
| compatible with FLOSS from the ground up.
| newhouseb wrote:
| Hmm that's a good point, I had not considered the shared
| memory architecture of the Qualcomm chipsets.
|
| That said, given that using AT commands usually require
| enormous amounts of (potentially insecure) string parsing
| I wouldn't be surprised if there are vulnerabilities to
| closed source blobs even over USB. That is to say, the
| reverse engineering on the Android side could improve the
| security posture (or it could also make it worse!).
| ac29 wrote:
| > you (as a small scale manufacturer) can't buy the chipset
| itself
|
| If you're willing to deal with possibly questionable
| Chinese resellers, you can buy pretty much anything you
| want in small quantities. Just don't expect any support
| from the manufacturer.
|
| See, for example:
| https://www.hkinventory.com/p/d/MDM9607.htm
| grishka wrote:
| What about datasheets that are only available if you're a
| large enough company to sign a contract and an NDA with
| Qualcomm?
|
| Also imagine buying a commercially available phone and
| freeing it from all the TrustZone and code signing bullshit
| by replacing the SoC with the same chip but in a
| "development" mode, with no fuses blown.
| kop316 wrote:
| The Pinephones modem is interesting, as it actually has it's
| own Android OS that is stacked on top of Qualcomm's OS (I
| want to call it "Hexagon"? But I don't think that's right).
|
| The folks that are freeing the Pinephone modem are focusing
| on the Android OS, not the underlying firmware.
|
| The project is here:
| https://github.com/Biktorgj/pinephone_modem_sdk/
| megous wrote:
| Code for the large parts of the modem's OS running on the
| hexagon DSP cores are available on github, if you search
| long enough. A few mil. lines of code. Not everything
| though.
| newhouseb wrote:
| This is surprising, is this intentional?
|
| If so, what would one search for?
| kop316 wrote:
| I'm a bit surprised too, as I assumed that is VERY
| proprietary.
| megous wrote:
| Search for unique enough symbol names from the firmware
| blob.
| comex wrote:
| Hexagon is the architecture of the DSP cores included in
| the modem, running in parallel with the ARM cores that run
| Linux/Android.
|
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qualcomm_Hexagon
| femto wrote:
| srsRAN (srsLTE until recently) has UE (modem) code.
|
| https://github.com/srsran/srsRAN/tree/master/srsue
| the_only_law wrote:
| Nice, I've seen a lot of open stuff out there for building GSM
| networks, it's cool to see some more recent stuff as well. I have
| a limesdr sitting at home I haven't had the chance to play with
| much, so I may have to try this out.
|
| I'm not too familiar with cellular networks, but I've been
| curious about 5G networks as well. I wonder how long it will take
| for us to see similar projects for those.
| Subsentient wrote:
| Well, seeing as 5G is currently a cat diarrhea smoothie,
| probably a while. It's literally better to just use LTE in most
| cases. I get the feeling LTE will be around and supported for a
| long time to come.
| theossuary wrote:
| Why do you say that about 5g? I cant say I'm very familair
| with the current situation, any links you could share?
| selectodude wrote:
| mmWave 5G is somewhat of a dud but the LTE "evolution" 5G, if
| you will, is pretty great, especially in major cities with RF
| capacity constraints.
| olivierestsage wrote:
| I support F(L)OSS, and this project is wonderful. As a native
| English speaker, though, I really regret the whole community's
| collective decision to choose "libre" to refer to software
| freedom. I understand the etymological origin, but -- to me --
| saying "lee bruh" in English is like chewing tinfoil. It strikes
| me as a tragic failure of marketing.
|
| I seem to remember that one of the names that was rejected in
| favor of LibreOffice was "Bureau." I wonder how a sleek name like
| that might have affected the program's fortunes?
| bjornjajayaja wrote:
| I tend to nitpick in similar ways. However, LibreOffice is used
| across language boundaries, and words like Free and Open don't
| translate as well in my opinion.
| onebot wrote:
| Was about to say this same thing. I feel like it has a very
| poor band association in my mind.
| Kaze404 wrote:
| I don't understand this comment. The English language already
| has "libra", "library"... As someone who's fluent in English
| (but not a native speaker) there is no distinction.
| olivierestsage wrote:
| It has to do with the rhythm of the way words are joined. I'm
| not a linguist, so I don't know the exact right term to use
| here, but in English there isn't usually that kind of "pause"
| sound between words/consonants-- whereas, in my limited
| knowledge of French, it seems like that is quite common (many
| words seem to end in -re).
| mPReDiToR wrote:
| Is that a glottal stop?
| Kaze404 wrote:
| I looked it up and it seems I had the wrong pronunciation
| of "libre". It's pronounced completely different in French,
| I had no idea. But still, this feels like a non-issue to
| me. There's nothing wrong with pronouncing "libre" in a way
| that's more comfortable for English speakers (like Libra),
| as it would still be crystal clear what you're referring to
| in my opinion.
| jtvjan wrote:
| > It's pronounced completely different in French
|
| For real? I thought both languages pronounced them like
| /libR/.
| dragonwriter wrote:
| In English, pronouncing it similar to if it was (in
| French) libre, for the software sense, is quite common.
| stinos wrote:
| I understand it, I think. The shape your lips/mouth make for
| the 'li' in 'library' is different than for the 'li' in
| 'libre' (at least when I try to pronounce the latter as
| french 'libre' but with an English 'r' which I have the
| impression is how it's supposed to be done and is also what
| the parent indicates, might be wrong?). As a result there's
| this weird movement to go from 'lee' to 'br' and I have a
| hard time getting a typical English 'r' out of it which I
| have zero problems with in 'library'. Non-native English
| speaker as well.
| [deleted]
| zfxfr wrote:
| As a native French speaker I don't see the problem with the
| prononciation of libre :)
|
| I understand the arguments for using English as a universal
| language but in this case the word libre brings an other nuance
| (meaning) "libre" != "free"
| [deleted]
| eplanit wrote:
| I sympathize with what you're saying, but IMHO "Bureau" invokes
| thoughts of authoritarian institutions.
| edoceo wrote:
| Ministry of Freedom
| jillesvangurp wrote:
| Patents and certification are going to be interesting for this.
| Building any commercial products or services will put you in the
| cross hairs of basically anyone with relevant patents.
| Certification could be an extra hurdle to get to market. Both
| issues can be fixed with money of course.
|
| What would be interesting would be some company with deep enough
| pockets to address that backing this.
| Nextgrid wrote:
| Would this still be a problem in a country where software
| patents are not recognized?
| cptskippy wrote:
| Depends on what that country does in respect to
| certification. Many countries do a me-too certification where
| they'll certify something certified by the US or EU.
| vincnetas wrote:
| I assume patents will expire eventually. It will be nice to be
| prepared when they do.
| sethhochberg wrote:
| A potential problem with this waiting period is that usable
| RF spectrum is routinely repurposed (called refarming) from
| legacy use cases to newer technologies. By the time your
| patent around a particular kind of radio is expired, the
| spectrum itself might be nearing the end of its lifetime for
| that purpose.
| diegocg wrote:
| When they expire they will no longer be useful. You will need
| new patents to operate 100G networks.
| ptero wrote:
| An open source network, either regional or wide area, would be a
| very big deal for many areas. Being 4G compatible is nice, but
| even if it uses a different band (e.g., less stringently
| controlled WiFi bands) a mesh network would enable a lot of
| projects.
|
| On the technical side, current SDRs are cheap and very capable.
| Unfortunately, for this to take off one needs a large network
| effect and should the technology take off it is easy for various
| three letter agencies to compromise, for example by inserting
| their own nodes. And as some uses are likely to be sketchy
| "because terrorism/pornography" is all the justification they
| will need.
| unknown_error wrote:
| Check out https://althea.net/
| dmos62 wrote:
| What kinds of things could one build with this? Apart from a
| mobile carrier.
| marshray wrote:
| You could build a test lab for examining the attack surface
| exposed by cell phones to their mobile carriers.
|
| In a Faraday cage, of course.
| jschveibinz wrote:
| I would envision applications like emergency/disaster
| management, event management, temporary remote network (e.g.
| desert, mountains), etc. in situations where regular network is
| down or very crowded.
| jokoon wrote:
| Long distance wireless networks, I guess?
|
| Although I don't think it would be possible in countries where
| frequencies belong to operators, frequencies is a problem for
| SDR folks if they want to do long range.
|
| I guess cybersecurity agencies would also not be happy with
| people using this, since it could be used as some form of
| stingray, I think?
|
| But in africa or other third world countries, I guess there are
| large areas without internet, so they could obviously benefit
| from cheaper ways to have internet over there, if it was built
| for free or funded by some NGO.
| goodpoint wrote:
| In some countries you can get temporary licenses for running
| GSM networks during events like concerts, especially in remote
| locations.
| anonymousisme wrote:
| Reminds me of NinjaTel.
|
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NinjaTel_Van
|
| https://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2012/07/ninja...
| teeray wrote:
| So is there any way to use this in unlicensed bands outside of a
| lab setting? Maybe using CBRS?
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(page generated 2021-06-21 23:00 UTC)