[HN Gopher] The inventor of the black box was told to drop the idea
       ___________________________________________________________________
        
       The inventor of the black box was told to drop the idea
        
       Author : sohkamyung
       Score  : 200 points
       Date   : 2021-06-19 02:05 UTC (20 hours ago)
        
 (HTM) web link (spectrum.ieee.org)
 (TXT) w3m dump (spectrum.ieee.org)
        
       | neonate wrote:
       | https://archive.is/pcGpz
        
       | refurb wrote:
       | It kind of makes sense. If you had a high stakes job (human life,
       | say a surgeon) and your boss wanted to record your every action,
       | what would you think?
       | 
       | I think the FAA's approach of "we do accident investigations so
       | we learn, not to blame" went pretty far in making the idea more
       | acceptable.
        
       | code_duck wrote:
       | Good thing this idea didn't go down in flames. (Sorry).
       | 
       | Looking back, almost every great idea I've had has received
       | negative support from people around me, who either didn't
       | understand it or had their own plans for me.
        
       | robertlagrant wrote:
       | Inventor: this is my indestructible black box for recording
       | aircraft crashes.
       | 
       | Reviewer: drop it.
       | 
       | Inventor: this is a safety feature that will allow us to iterate
       | plane design and save thousands of lives in the future!
       | 
       | Reviewer: drop it.
       | 
       | Inventor: this is extremely important for the future of aviation!
       | 
       | Reviewer: drop it.
       | 
       | Inventor: I WILL NOT _storms off_
       | 
       | Reviewer: I just meant...show that it won't break? Never mind.
        
       | ineedasername wrote:
       | _magnetized steel wire as the recording medium._
       | 
       | I had no idea that was how recordings were (or at least could) be
       | made at the time. Of course it makes sense-- early use of
       | magnetic tape was something like nickel coated bronze, so there's
       | no reason a wire couldn't also work.
       | 
       | Just a bit of electronics history I wasn't aware of that I
       | thought interesting.
        
         | shultays wrote:
         | Here is a video on them
         | https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=90ihiTwJPCc
        
         | quintushoratius wrote:
         | I think part of the reason for using wire was for fire
         | proofing. The recording would be salvageable even after intense
         | fires.
         | 
         | Later recorders used plastic tape but also have a water vessel.
         | As the water boils it keeps the interior from going above 100C
         | - until it boils away. The recorders are rated for maybe 30-60
         | minutes of direct exposure.
         | 
         | Recent recorders use solid state storage and, still, water to
         | keep the internal temperature lower.
        
       | femto wrote:
       | Reading Wikipedia, David Warren died in 2010, and his coffin was
       | labelled "FLIGHT RECORDER INVENTOR DO NOT OPEN". Nice.
       | 
       | https://www.wsj.com/media/072310pod05.jpg
        
       | slipframe wrote:
       | Well if this idea can't survive being dropped, it's not much good
       | is it? Sorry...
       | 
       | > _Interestingly, modern flight data recorders are required to
       | have an underwater locator beacon that pulses once per second at
       | 37.5 kilohertz for 30 days and is supposed to be detectable at
       | depths of at least 14,000 feet (4,267 meters). But they don't
       | have comparable beacons for crashes on land._
       | 
       | After Japan Airlines Flight 123, that is shocking to me.
        
         | na85 wrote:
         | >But they don't have comparable beacons for crashes on land.
         | 
         | Well, they do:
         | https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emergency_position-indicating_...
         | 
         | But the reason you need underwater beacons in particular is
         | that the water absorbs RF signals, so you'll actually use
         | acoustic beacons underwater. Such a device would be useless
         | above the water since air is so much less dense.
        
           | slipframe wrote:
           | From what I understand in America, small airplanes are
           | required to have ELTs/EPIRBs, but airliners are exempt. I
           | don't know why that would be, maybe lobbying.
        
             | FooHentai wrote:
             | Possibly their size means they're remote trackable (e.g.
             | radar) already by gov/military when over or near land. This
             | may not be the case with small aircraft.
             | 
             | Total guess, of course.
        
         | [deleted]
        
       | redis_mlc wrote:
       | The black box has worked well for all in Common Law countries.
       | 
       | In countries with French-style law, that might be different for
       | pilots. (Essentially you're guilty until proven innocent, and
       | they hire a retired judge with nothing better to do except to
       | drag out the hearings (and fees) until they die.)
       | 
       | However the scale has tipped recently in the US with a central
       | pilot records database being created recently. So at every step
       | of your career, you're recorded and tracked. If an employer
       | doesn't like you, they can scribble whatever they want in your
       | permanent government record now.
       | 
       | So before a pilot candidate spends $200,000 on a college
       | education and pilot training, they need to think about both
       | losing their medical at any time, and what will happen if their
       | airline decides to fire them and give them a hard time.
        
         | [deleted]
        
         | markdown wrote:
         | > $200,000 on a college education and pilot training, they need
         | to think about both losing their medical at any time
         | 
         | In my country Loss of License insurance removes that as a risk
         | for pilots.
        
           | redis_mlc wrote:
           | In the US there is loss of medical insurance (essentially
           | disability insurance) available in most scenarios from
           | several providers, provided somebody pays for it. Note
           | there's always policy fine-print and limits.
           | 
           | But there's no loss of certificate insurance product
           | available. The FAA pads any complaint with "reckless", which
           | is up to their sole opinion.
        
         | p_l wrote:
         | In Roman law you're also innocent until proven guilty - and the
         | unwritten law in most countries is that prosecution doesn't get
         | to access accident investigation materials and has to order
         | their own experts every time.
        
       | Proven wrote:
       | I'm not surprised.
       | 
       | The technically savvy HN readership is overwhelmingly against
       | black-box designs.
        
       | ajarmst wrote:
       | There's an interesting aside in that neither a CVR nor a FDR
       | would have been helpful in figuring out the cause of the Comet
       | disasters. The way they did was brilliant.
        
       | dukoid wrote:
       | Now that the technology is so inexpensive, we need to have them
       | in cars!
        
         | FooHentai wrote:
         | Already a thing and quite widespread deployment. Mandated in
         | the US, Japan, and Korea for many years now:
         | https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Event_data_recorder
        
         | nine_k wrote:
         | Get a dashcam.
         | 
         | I wonder how soon a car would be able to publish its metrics,
         | like speed, motor rpm, data from ABS and brakes, etc via a
         | protected Bluetooth channel, so that a dashcam or a phone could
         | keep recording it, like the black box.
        
           | jiofih wrote:
           | Dashcams pointing outwards are not legal in the EU due to
           | privacy laws.
        
           | emilburzo wrote:
           | Now?
           | 
           | You can already get those metrics from the car's OBD2 port.
           | 
           | There are even dongles which have Bluetooth so you can
           | see/record the metrics on your phone, so it shouldn't take
           | much to get them on a dashcam.
        
         | valepape wrote:
         | Just don't IoT it, please.
        
           | Haga wrote:
           | To late
        
         | marcosdumay wrote:
         | Well, ok. First you make it a crime for any authority to look
         | at it for any reason that is not blameless safety
         | investigations.
        
       | rkachowski wrote:
       | Tangental, but I wasn't aware of a ban on hobby radio activity
       | during WW2 until I read this article. What would be the reasoning
       | for that?
        
         | jameshart wrote:
         | Probably a mix of: reserving supply of electronic components to
         | military use; eliminating a possible cover story for spies;
         | emission control to deny enemy navigation cues; limiting
         | vectors for accidental information disclosure; creating an
         | atmosphere of 'We're all engaged in this all out struggle
         | together'; wartime bureaucratic expansion and overreach; and
         | just generally more important things going on.
        
       | WalterBright wrote:
       | I've watched all the episodes of Aviation Disasters. The device
       | missing from cockpits is the _video_ recorder. Many
       | investigations revolve around questions like what is the pilot
       | looking at, what the instruments show, even who the heck is in
       | the pilot 's seat. Video can confirm switch settings and
       | instrument readouts (the voice recorder is also used to confirm
       | if the warning horns sounded properly).
       | 
       | Instead, a lot of effort goes into trying to reconstruct this.
       | 
       | Just put a dang video camera in the cockpit.
       | 
       | I've also, for decades, advocated a camera that records flight
       | operations at an airport. Just stick a couple in the tower
       | pointed at the runways. Note that in the Concorde disaster, there
       | was no video of the take-off. They had to rely on eyewitness
       | testimony, which is notoriously unreliable. The only video came
       | later from some passenger in a car who happened to have a video
       | cam at hand. That accidental video proved valuable. (It's a
       | horrifying video.)
       | 
       | I was surprised at all the vitriol opposition to pointing a
       | camera at the runways. People confidently told me it would cost
       | millions of dollars, and was completely infeasible. Jeez, anyone
       | could buy a security camera that recorded on a loop for a few
       | hundred. Every convenience store had them.
        
         | ajarmst wrote:
         | It would be less useful than you'd think. Pilots are trained to
         | articulate what they are doing and generally follow very well-
         | practiced procedures. Another pilot can quite accurately
         | reproduce what a pilot is doing just from the transcript, and
         | the warning horns and other indicators are quite expressive of
         | other things. The audio is good enough to hear breakers
         | opening. Anything a video camera could see out the window that
         | would be relevant will be remarked upon by pilots.
        
           | wizzwizz4 wrote:
           | In the vast, vast majority of cases, yes. However, black
           | boxes are only used in the minority where something has gone
           | horribly wrong.
        
           | WalterBright wrote:
           | I've watched enough Aviation Disasters to know this isn't
           | always good enough.
        
         | gaucho32 wrote:
         | Dude, every single mishap since airplanes became reliable was
         | pilot error at the root. It's never not pilot error. The FAA is
         | a jobs program, similar to the old TVA, and note that all
         | mechanics and pilots are still unionized. Governments have
         | ensured that there will be no meaningful innovation in air
         | breathing aviation, hence the space race...go ABOVE the
         | bureaucrats.
        
         | the-dude wrote:
         | Although I don't necessarily disagree with your arguments,
         | using security cameras on the tower would probably give you
         | very little : the distances are huge.
         | 
         | Imagine the footage of the average shop robbery, which most of
         | the time is already useless. And UFOs.
        
           | WalterBright wrote:
           | It'll tell you the positions, directions, and speeds of the
           | traffic on the runways, which are a big deal.
        
             | the-dude wrote:
             | Don't they have ground radar for this?
        
               | WalterBright wrote:
               | Maybe they do now, at some airports. Radar is far, far
               | more expensive than a dashcam set in the tower.
        
         | josefx wrote:
         | > Jeez, anyone could buy a security camera that recorded on a
         | loop for a few hundred.
         | 
         | It probably isn't that easy, at least for the runways. Remember
         | that Uber crash where they tried to convince everyone that the
         | cyclist was near impossible to see? The dash cam used to record
         | that video was standard, but also completely unable to handle
         | even a well lit road at night. Good cameras and the weather
         | proofing they need out in the open (they should still work
         | after a snow storm) will cost a lot more, probably not
         | infeasible but still a decent amount of cash.
        
           | dwild wrote:
           | > the weather proofing they need out in the open
           | 
           | He suggest to put one in the tower. There's no need to
           | weather proof anything, or else poor controllers ;). In
           | theory the tower see the runways well enough, or else the
           | airport isn't well designed and the tower doesn't fill its
           | own purpose.
           | 
           | > The dash cam used to record that video was standard, but
           | also completely unable to handle even a well lit road at
           | night.
           | 
           | Weren't we still able to see the cyclist? Weren't we able to
           | boost the contrast to see her even better?
           | 
           | Sorry for the sarcasm, but even the worst camera show more
           | than no camera at all... You can't argue that seeing a
           | cyclist badly is worse than not seeing that same cyclist at
           | all.
           | 
           | All it takes is a 100$ camera and you would get so much more
           | evidence.
        
         | unishark wrote:
         | I have no doubt that it would cost millions. If it's important
         | enough to do, it's important enough to spend extra on a
         | (supposedly) reliable and secure system with some massive 24/7
         | maintenance contract. Unlike convenience store cameras that can
         | just use off-the-shelf products and still deter criminals by
         | just being there even when broken.
        
         | bruce343434 wrote:
         | If I was a pilot I'd hate to be constantly surveilled by a
         | camera, even if the footage is "never reviewed". In fact, it's
         | got nothing to do with being a pilot.
        
           | garaetjjte wrote:
           | >even if the footage is "never reviewed"
           | 
           | Why the scare quotes? It would be literally never reviewed
           | unless incident occurs, as it would be on overwriting loop.
        
           | gccs wrote:
           | Don't buy a Tesla then. They have cameras pointing at you and
           | recording while driving.
        
             | bruce343434 wrote:
             | I'm not gonna?
        
             | bigbillheck wrote:
             | > Don't buy a Tesla then
             | 
             | Way ahead of you on that one.
        
             | astrange wrote:
             | So do taxis, and any other car with driver assistance
             | (though those don't save the video, they just watch if your
             | hands are on the wheel.)
        
             | ericd wrote:
             | That's opt-in, at least in the US, and for the moment.
        
               | cj wrote:
               | (Just curious) what features become unavailable when you
               | opt out? Or in other words, why would anyone opt in?
        
           | fakedang wrote:
           | If I was a private pilot, sure (and I am one). If I am a
           | commercial pilot ferrying hundreds of passengers or millions
           | of dollars worth of cargo, I'm no different from a public
           | transit employee (or a public employee for that matter), in
           | which case I damn well have to put up with being surveilled
           | on camera.
        
           | dwild wrote:
           | I can see the privacy issue, but your voice is already
           | recorded. A camera wouldn't infringe that much more on your
           | privacy...
        
           | beebeepka wrote:
           | Haha. Even public transport has had cameras for years.
        
         | zeusk wrote:
         | Couple of issues here; the first and foremost - recording
         | people at their workplace. We can all argue how privacy is
         | unreasonable in public but recording let alone pilots but
         | anyone continuously at work will receive big pushback.
         | 
         | Also video occupies much more data than most other streams of
         | information stored on blackbox. This coupled with the fact that
         | anything aviation related takes decades to get into widespread
         | use and it was only quite recently that solid state storage
         | became so dense and ubiquitous.
         | 
         | Video surveillance at airports is getting more widespread, just
         | search for SFO asiana.
        
           | WalterBright wrote:
           | It's the same issue with the audio recording. The solution is
           | it's in a loop, and those recordings are almost never
           | released.
           | 
           | As for video, VHS quality is about 1Gb per hour. Meaning you
           | can put 64 hours on an ordinary USB stick about the size of
           | my thumbnail. Furthermore, video recording has nothing to do
           | with flying the airplane, so there are no
           | safety/certification issues. It doesn't even have to be in a
           | crashproof box.
           | 
           | I know that airports now have video surveillance, but those
           | cameras are pointed mostly at the tarmac for security
           | purposes, not at the runways for flight ops.
        
             | WalterBright wrote:
             | BTW, I can buy a dashcam for $100 that records HD in a loop
             | and plugs into a cigarette lighter. I'm not buying there's
             | any technical or cost issue with installing one in the
             | cockpit. I will buy that the problems are all bureaucratic
             | in nature.
             | 
             | Just make a secure bracket for it, and a 12V feed.
        
           | tomrod wrote:
           | We record bus drivers, for goodness' sake. We should be able
           | to record pilots.
           | 
           | I agree that a hardened process relying on multiple SSD (that
           | are then uploaded and wiped after landing at an airport)
           | would be a good technical direction.
        
           | glycine wrote:
           | why we cannot just delete record when airplane take off next
           | time? if airplane landing safely, we do not need record
           | anymore.
        
           | bregma wrote:
           | "If the people in the cockpit aren't doing anything wrong,
           | they have nothing to worry about".
        
             | abraae wrote:
             | A reasonable argument for stoners lighting up in the
             | supermarket carpark.
             | 
             | Not so for someone flying several tons of metal that will
             | absolutely fuck up the lives of many people if they aren't
             | paying full attention.
        
           | chrisseaton wrote:
           | > recording let alone pilots but anyone continuously at work
           | will receive big pushback
           | 
           | I think we can say that when you have hundreds of people's
           | lives in your hands you are accepting a higher level of
           | oversight and invasion of privacy.
           | 
           | The same reason some people in some careers have to go
           | through deeply invasive background checks.
        
           | Anarch157a wrote:
           | This already happens. At least here in Brazil, offices have
           | security cameras in pretty much every environment, except the
           | restrooms.
           | 
           | An office is a shared environment, usually not owned by the
           | people who work there, that exists only for job related
           | activities. Just like companies can monitor your company
           | issued email, network traffic and cell phone, they can
           | monitor your activities in the workspace.
           | 
           | I'm a privacy advocate, I avoid Google and Facebook as much
           | as I can, but even I understand the difference between
           | private and professional life. One has an assumption of
           | privacy, the other doesn't.
        
             | algorias wrote:
             | Note that this is not the case in all jurisdictions. In
             | many European countries, the company cannot monitor
             | employees' corporate emails without specific justification.
        
           | jacquesm wrote:
           | No, if you're a pilot in charge of a few hundred lives + the
           | lives of a few hundred more in case you crash on the ground
           | your 'privacy at work' is trumped by the responsibilities you
           | have taken on. That's not a good argument. What _is_ a good
           | argument is that people might behave different if they
           | believed that there would be consequences for their actions,
           | and this might either be a negative (if they don 't act for
           | fear of repercussions) or a positive (if they don't perform
           | acts that could endanger the aircraft knowing that these are
           | recorded).
        
           | willis936 wrote:
           | There isn't an inch in Taipei that doesn't have a CCTV on it.
           | 
           | In the US I see cameras at every gas station, donut shop,
           | drug store, liquor store, and lab I go into. None of these
           | places are as high stakes or high security as an airport.
        
       | Foomf wrote:
       | I wonder why there was such a difference in responses between the
       | Australians and the British. Was it just a culture difference?
        
         | martyvis wrote:
         | But it was an interesting turnaround by the Aussies that they
         | were the first country to mandate the flight data recorders.
        
       | mongol wrote:
       | The last sentences about uploading data to the cloud had not
       | struck me before. It is such an obvious development, if not to
       | replace so to complement. But perhaps there are challenges around
       | it that are not obvious?
        
         | goatinaboat wrote:
         | _It is such an obvious development, if not to replace so to
         | complement. But perhaps there are challenges around it that are
         | not obvious?_
         | 
         | You might be surprised how scant and expensive bandwidth
         | becomes once you are out of sight of land
        
           | wanderingstan wrote:
           | Still, there are so many flights now that offer onboard Wifi,
           | it's seems silly not to back up flight recorder data to the
           | cloud wherever possible.
        
         | nine_k wrote:
         | A plane more often has access to an atmospheric cloud than to a
         | computing cloud, especially when flying over an ocean. Maybe
         | Starlink could offer reasonable connectivity, even if
         | intermittent.
        
           | astrange wrote:
           | https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Malaysia_Airlines_Flight_370_s.
           | ..
        
       | kken wrote:
       | This inventor is probably joined by many others before him that
       | had the same idea, were shrugged off and did not have the
       | tenacity to follow up despite that. Another example for what is
       | common wisdom: Execution is everything.
       | 
       | The myth of the inventor-founder is something from the industrual
       | age. Interesting how it still persists.
        
         | inigojonesguy wrote:
         | "Execution is everything" is always true after the fact. Good
         | and bad ideas are treated with disdain because that is how
         | people are. Until a random person gets profit from execution,
         | then is praised for the profit, because people desire and envy
         | profit.
         | 
         | If there is a myth here, it is that it matters who executed it
         | first. It's random.
        
         | fighterpilot wrote:
         | Why is it a myth? Whenever I read about the founding of a big
         | name company there's very often a significant innovation that
         | it's initially premised on.
         | 
         | Disney - animated feature length film with sound, dogged vision
         | of founder
         | 
         | Post / Kelloggs - invention of breakfast cereal, invented by
         | founder (Kellogg's invention stolen by Post)
         | 
         | Carnegie steel - bridge prototype, highly risky and innovative
         | endeavor
         | 
         | Ford - division of labor
         | 
         | Mars - caramel and nougat in chocolate, innovation over
         | Hersheys' plain chocolate, invented by founder
         | 
         | Google - pagerank, invented by founders
        
           | redis_mlc wrote:
           | More recent examples are:
           | 
           | - Robinson Helicopters, the largest mfg. in the world by unit
           | count
           | 
           | - Dean Kamen, several medical devices plus the Segway
           | 
           | - an endless number of Internet companies.
           | 
           | Note that the Google founders couldn't write their own
           | production-level software, so hired a python contractor.
           | 
           | Also for those that aware, Tesla's patents were used to start
           | Westinghouse.
        
           | username90 wrote:
           | Mass production and factories had already been a thing for
           | almost a century when Ford started his factories. It is like
           | saying that the new innovation "computers" was behind
           | Facebooks success.
        
             | nine_k wrote:
             | No, the Ford's innovation is division of labor while
             | producing a complex thing, a car. Instead of a team working
             | on various operations, Ford's system introduced workers who
             | each did a very simple operation, without having to change
             | or readjust. The need for coordination between workers was
             | largely removed, replaced by the conveyor, seriously
             | improving production speed.
        
               | PeterisP wrote:
               | Division of labor while producing a complex thing was a
               | concept well established and documented during the
               | industrial revolution before Ford. E.g. Adam Smith had a
               | lot to say exactly about "Instead of a team working on
               | various operations, [...] introduced workers who each did
               | a very simple operation, without having to change or
               | readjust.", it's misleading to call it "Ford's system"
               | because Ford applied it extensively, but he did not
               | invent it and wasn't the first to use it. Conveyor lines
               | also wasn't an invention of Ford - he applied them a lot
               | on scale, but they were widely used in different
               | industries long before he was born. He also wasn't the
               | first to apply continuous assembly lines specifically to
               | the production of cars, as far as I understand the
               | founder of Oldsmobile had been doing high-volume series-
               | production of cars with strong division of labor a couple
               | years earlier, though eventually not as successful as
               | Ford.
               | 
               | He can and should be credited with applying these
               | innovations at scale and ironing out various kinks in the
               | process and popularizing these concepts, but it would be
               | a lie to call it "Ford's innovation", all these things
               | you mention were initially invented by others, although
               | Ford did manage the practical implementation of all these
               | innovations in combination unusually well.
        
               | jacquesm wrote:
               | No, that was pioneered by Ransom E. Olds. That doesn't
               | stop Ford from repeating this at every opportunity but it
               | isn't really true.
               | 
               | https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ransom_E._Olds
        
               | fighterpilot wrote:
               | Which car company was using division of labor before
               | Ford?
        
               | zaroth wrote:
               | Olds-mobile, of course.
        
             | [deleted]
        
           | ggm wrote:
           | Post and Kellog have joint tenancy in weird theories about
           | breakfast cereal and masturbation. I wouldn't class Post as a
           | thief in this space. Also grape nuts are fantastic (and that
           | isn't a joke about nutting)
        
         | bumbada wrote:
         | This is not a myth, but History recording real facts that
         | happened.
         | 
         | Anyone can imagine a "flying car" or a "nuclear fusion
         | reactor". It is a completely different thing having and putting
         | the resources to work: the people, the effort, the money and
         | the time to make something real.
         | 
         | Someone just "having an idea" only works in science fiction,
         | and even there you need to do the work of writing the book, or
         | drawing the comic.
        
       | kwdc wrote:
       | Wow. History hasn't been kind. As is often the case around
       | limited-mindset thinking.
       | 
       | From TFA: "civil authorities said that "Dr Warren's instrument
       | has little immediate direct use in civil aircraft." The Royal
       | Australian Air Force likewise decided that "such a device is not
       | required--the recorder would yield more expletives than
       | explanations."
       | 
       | Well. No. Multiple air crashes across the world relied on
       | recordings as a key part of their investigation. Especially when
       | a plane lands in the Hudson, just to name one example.
       | 
       | This is very telling:
       | 
       | "Most damning was the Federation of Air Pilots, which declared
       | that the device would be like "a spy flying alongside--no plane
       | would take off in Australia with Big Brother listening."
       | 
       | History wasn't kind here either. Just try and take off in a jet
       | from a commercial airliner without the various safety equipment
       | installed. The insurance companies alone will try to eat you
       | alive, let alone every other agency.
       | 
       | There's definitely a repeating theme around safety equipment and
       | authority/authority figures. The ridicule at the start is
       | definitely a common starting point. Seat belts and air bags were
       | both ridiculous inventions. Then they weren't. Then they became
       | required.
       | 
       | Quote from elsewhere and not necessarily about flight recorders:
       | "It has been said that any new idea must pass through three
       | stages. First, it is ridiculed; second, it is subject to
       | argument: third, it is accepted. The safety idea has reached the
       | final stage. It is accepted." -- Earl B. Morgan, journal of
       | Safety Engineering, 1917
        
         | accountLost wrote:
         | First They Ignore You, Then They Laugh at You, Then They Attack
         | You, Then You Win.
         | 
         | "The statement evolved from a large family of sayings that
         | originated in the nineteenth century. In 1918 a closely similar
         | remark emerged in a speech by Nicholas Klein, a union
         | representative. Gandhi discussed stages that a movement passes
         | through in a collection of writings he published in 1921, but
         | his words did not really match the target expression."
         | 
         | https://quoteinvestigator.com/2017/08/13/stages/
        
         | belter wrote:
         | "Don't worry about people stealing your ideas. If your ideas
         | are any good, you'll have to ram them down people's throats."
         | 
         | Howard Aiken
        
         | robertlagrant wrote:
         | Fourth: in retrospect, it is seen as obvious :)
        
           | [deleted]
        
         | the-dude wrote:
         | What about a black box for your car?
        
         | nickthemagicman wrote:
         | Are these the 'trust the experts' everyone was talking about
         | during Covid?
        
         | jacquesm wrote:
         | Yes. You can find the same kind of bs regarding safety belts in
         | cars, ABS, airbags and so on. The part where I'm seeing a
         | difference is when safety gear starts to actively interfere
         | with operating the vehicle.
        
         | snowwrestler wrote:
         | It's kind of funny to see basically the same arguments being
         | offered against video recording in this very thread on HN.
        
         | linspace wrote:
         | I guess one possible explanation is that having a black box in
         | your plane is not useful to you, only for other people after
         | you die. Pushing for the idea requires accepting you are going
         | to screw up and some people will think that your job is
         | preventing the airplane from crashing in the first place. It's
         | obviously useful in the long term from a societal perspective,
         | not from a short-term and individual point of view.
        
           | codetrotter wrote:
           | Even then I don't get why someone would object. But of course
           | hindsight is 20/20 so that may be why. Having a black box in
           | all aircraft would help me too, because other crashes are
           | better understood. Then again I also do want my death to be
           | maximally useful to others should I die, so that at least I
           | don't die completely in vain. I don't want to live forever,
           | but I don't want my life to end abruptly and outside of my
           | control either, and I have plenty of things I want to do
           | still before I leave. So that may also be why I don't
           | understand that POV you suggested.
           | 
           | Also, if I was a pilot, I would appreciate the fact that the
           | black box can potentially help my friends and family get
           | closure, because if the black box survives then my friends
           | and family can learn what happened that caused the crash.
        
             | seoaeu wrote:
             | What they might learn is that the crash was your fault. It
             | isn't clear that's the legacy you'd really want to have.
        
               | wizzwizz4 wrote:
               | And they might learn that it wasn't, thus clearing your
               | name.
               | 
               | In the aviation world, people aren't at fault. Processes
               | are.
        
           | stanpinte wrote:
           | I think pilot must have known that the information in the
           | back box would provide them heaps of data on how to prevent
           | crashes, to their benefits. My guess is that is was not
           | opposed by average pilots, but by people in power above or
           | around or among pilots, whose power would be undercut by any
           | new idea.
        
       | tiku wrote:
       | My idea was to make a lot of small transponders on the outside of
       | a plane, that detach when in contact with seawater. And a few on
       | long cables so that you could track that cable to the plane part.
       | Those transponders could also have micro-sd cards with data on
       | them.
        
         | fatninja wrote:
         | fire is also another scenario.
        
       | austincheney wrote:
       | Marc Andreessen describes his experiences seeking funding for
       | Netscape as a disaster, particularly among the telecom giants of
       | the age who had a potential stake in related businesses. Nobody
       | thought the web or a web browser were worth investing in. Who
       | would ever use those?
       | 
       | The moral of these stories is that originality scares the shit of
       | people. Good ideas are not immediately apparent.
        
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       (page generated 2021-06-19 23:02 UTC)