[HN Gopher] In Argentina, cheap government-issued netbooks spark...
___________________________________________________________________
In Argentina, cheap government-issued netbooks sparked a musical
Renaissance
Author : truth_
Score : 199 points
Date : 2021-06-17 13:14 UTC (9 hours ago)
(HTM) web link (restofworld.org)
(TXT) w3m dump (restofworld.org)
| tombot wrote:
| We are lucky to have restofworld to report on things outside of
| the Californian internet aesthetic
| MrPowers wrote:
| Here's some other great Argentinian trap/reggaeton music:
|
| * Khea / Duki / Cazzu:
| https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XQ0D_QD_DhM
|
| * Paulo Londra (PG lyrics):
| https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NPpELzyP4rw&ab
|
| I live in Colombia and am working to get more Latinos / Latinas
| in tech. I've started giving Macbooks to students and it's helped
| a lot. Lots of students don't have good development workstations.
| Macs are incredibly expensive here because of import taxes.
|
| If you have an old Macbook that's in good working condition and
| would like to donate it, let me know and I'll make sure to get it
| in the hands of a Colombian student that's working hard to learn
| programming.
|
| A career in tech can be a transformative life event for a
| Colombian (and their extended family).
| redleader55 wrote:
| > ... Macs are incredibly expensive here because of import
| taxes
|
| This sound like a great opportunity for the government to do
| some good.
| wolverine876 wrote:
| >> ... Macs are incredibly expensive here because of import
| taxes
|
| > This sound like a great opportunity for the government to
| do some good.
|
| Cut the taxes that fund the services poor people depend on,
| such as education, health care, transportation, etc., so that
| they can have cheaper computers and Apple can net more
| profit?
| Daishiman wrote:
| Why would you give children used Macbooks that are incredibly
| expensive to repair if you're out of the range of an Apple
| store and not really user-serviceable when you can give them
| even cheaper used corporate Lenovos for a fraction of the price
| that do things just as easily but have far more availability of
| spare parts?
| MrPowers wrote:
| I started with Mac cause that's what I had and it's been
| working well. I'm not opposed to giving other types of
| computers and seeing how that works.
|
| There is a lot of additional support I provide that's a lot
| more important than the computer type.
| the_af wrote:
| Like Daishiman, I'm also from Argentina, and I think his
| point is that Macs are prohibitively expensive here (more
| than in say the US, here they are hard to buy, expensive,
| and you pay a lot in taxes), so using Macs for a program
| meant to teach & reach lots of kids doesn't make a lot of
| sense. It's not about the OS or the computer type, but
| about the cost and access to repairs when they break down:
| you must keep the costs low or the whole program will
| become unfeasible.
| cutler wrote:
| What's wrong with Ubuntu Linux on second-hand commodity
| hardware? More scalable for your project, surely?
| mrwebmaster wrote:
| My 5yrs old kid wants to listen Khea / Duki / Londra all day (I
| don't, so it's limited :( ). I don't see a lot of connection
| between listening to music on YT and a career in tech (or my
| son is going to have a career in tech?)
| Daishiman wrote:
| They will learn to find things they want on Youtube/google
| which they will be able to leverage to learn whatever they
| are curious about.
| pierrec wrote:
| Say what you will about FL Studio, the screenshot in the article
| (presumably from a Glitcha project) shows it can achieve some
| impressive information density: https://restofworld.org/wp-
| content/uploads/2021/06/APS_DSF01...
| 1986 wrote:
| Absolutely unintended consequences, but at the same time, part of
| a long history of musical scenes developing out of access to
| (comparatively low-end) technology, and doing the best with what
| you have:
|
| - Many early UK grime beats (by folks like Benga, Dizzee Rascal,
| So Solid Crew, Ruff Sqwad) were produced on a Playstation
| (software: MTV Music Generator or Music 2000)
|
| - (originally pirated copies of) FL Studio running on student or
| family computers are more or less directly responsible for
| developments in mainstream US rap in the past ~15 years
|
| - the ultimate one of these is the idea that looting of music
| stores in the 1977 blackouts led directly to the birth of hip hop
| in NYC - but this is probably apocryphal and most of those early
| DJs were just "misusing" their parents' stereo equipment
|
| Would love to hear some more examples!
| eatonphil wrote:
| This is a great piece, but to go meta for a second: Rest of World
| is a NYC-based magazine started recently to cover social/economic
| issues with a focus on tech, specifically ignoring the
| US/Canada/EU.
|
| It is one of my favorite magazines now for sharing a perspective
| on some countries I don't often think about and some that I do
| (RoK) but don't often get to hear about from typical western
| news.
|
| Here's one of my favorite pieces recently: what the home office
| and pandemic work-life looks like for folks in Tehran,
| Kyrgyzstan, Mexico, Philippines, Bangkok, Dhaka, South Africa,
| Saudi Arabia, Seoul.
|
| https://restofworld.org/2021/heres-what-working-from-home-lo...
| MaxHoppersGhost wrote:
| Founded by Sophie Schmidt, the daughter of Eric Schmidt (co-
| founder of Google/70th richest person in the world). Just FYI.
| I like the idea of the publication but I wonder how unbiased it
| could be with a background like that.
| wolverine876 wrote:
| > Founded by Sophie Schmidt, the daughter of Eric Schmidt
| (co-founder of Google/70th richest person in the world). Just
| FYI. I like the idea of the publication but I wonder how
| unbiased it could be with a background like that.
|
| Good to know, but I think it's taking it too far to say that
| Sophie couldn't be unbiased. Are children so bound to their
| parents? Are you so bound to think like yours? To support
| your parents' endeavors? Some do, but many don't.
| MaxHoppersGhost wrote:
| I suppose I am a bit cynical but looking at the founder's
| background I'm guessing she had some funding from somebody
| to get this venture off the ground. Would be shocked if her
| family connections didn't play a part in getting this thing
| started.
| bellyfullofbac wrote:
| A quick DDG search says self-funded: https://www.buzzfeed
| news.com/article/josephbernstein/a-googl...
|
| But well, yeah, her CV and places she's worked (and got
| salaries from) at is impressive, some of that surely is
| helped (whether she wants it or not, it's how others are
| influenced) by the fact who her father is.
| MaxHoppersGhost wrote:
| Her CV is mediocre for someone who is the child of one of
| the richest people on the planet. Self funded with her
| trust fund maybe.
| 29athrowaway wrote:
| The themes of reggaeton include objectification of women, and the
| trivialization of intimacy and relationships, as well as the
| human experience at large.
|
| Most reggaeton lyrics follow this structure:
|
| 1) I saw a female
|
| 2) I am aroused
|
| 3) Sexual innuendos
|
| There is almost no difference between the mechanics of "perreo"
| (from Spanish "perro", dog, meaning "dogging") and rubbing
| yourself against another person in a sexual manner.
|
| Now, in a more constructive tone... people creating music is a
| good thing. I hope that these artists persevere, and eventually
| find ways to create music about themes that elevate the human
| experience beyond the pursue of the sexual act.
| hdb2 wrote:
| Musician here...
|
| I find it interesting that you dismissed sex/reproduction as
| not being part of the human experience. I can think of no other
| act more fundamental to the human experience, save breathing
| and eating.
| 29athrowaway wrote:
| Well, sex in reggaeton is often seen as an end on itself,
| rather than a form of companionship, or a way to
| progressively cement a relationship, or create a family...
| It's just attraction and sex.
|
| The genre seems very focused on those 2 things only, leaving
| out many other aspects of relationship building. It's as deep
| as Pikotaro's song "Pen Pineapple Apple Pen".
| Daishiman wrote:
| The same can be said about the culture around Opera, but
| because poor people don't get to go you don't hear
| critiques of Rigoletto.
| grillvogel wrote:
| you just described the lyrics to basically every popular song
| in any genre
| truth_ wrote:
| This story, for me, proves to me again- significant things are
| possible if people have more liberal access to a computer and
| internet, and better resources in general.
|
| The fact that many potential great artists, scientists,
| developers, musicians are lost to poverty, and for not having
| access to tools is mind-numbing.
| wolverine876 wrote:
| Absolutely. It's hard to refute that people with more resources
| achieve at a much higher rate, and the solution is obvious.
| eric__cartman wrote:
| I'm from Argentina, and I can say that even though giving
| computers to students that didn't have access to one at home is
| an excellent thing to do, the sad truth is that many times cases
| like this are rare exceptions. Often the teachers and students
| public schools aren't taught how to incorporate these computers
| into their learning. Maybe they want to, but the lack of
| connectivity in many areas leaves students unable to partake in
| virtual classrooms, which is especially worrying considering that
| this group of students effectively couldn't receive an education
| for the better almost a whole year (at least).
|
| You can't expect to miraculously boost a kid's education by
| giving them a computer when they don't have internet connectivity
| at home, and missed a whole year of school due to covid. Many
| families can't afford to pay a monthly fee to an ISP.
|
| I still believe that this will be beneficial for many, nowadays
| having a computer opens up a lot of opportunities, but it can't
| replace a quality education, and magically fix a flawed education
| system.
| zzzpaz wrote:
| > the sad truth is that many times cases like this are rare
| exceptions.
|
| Well, giving a computer to someone doesn't turn them into a
| Bill Gates or Steve Jobs just because they own it. Depends on
| the attitude of whom receive it.
|
| You could say that most of the people will use it for fun and
| you entertainment.
|
| On the other side there are people who will use to uplift
| themselves and that's something that has to be appreciated.
|
| The truth is that these young man, without a computer wouldn't
| be in this situation today. So even if is an exception is still
| good to see that.
| inigojonesguy wrote:
| >Well, giving a computer to someone doesn't turn them into a
| Bill Gates or Steve Jobs just because they own it.
|
| I read this comment, I read the article and can't stop
| thinking what if Zuck were among these kids them maybe we
| could admire him as a musical talent like L-GANTE (link from
| the article) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SacHyFb_j1o
| StavrosK wrote:
| > giving a computer to someone doesn't turn them into a Bill
| Gates or Steve Jobs just because they own it.
|
| The point isn't to make every one of these kids a Bill Gates,
| it's to prevent the Bill Gates among them from living a life
| of poverty because they couldn't get a computer early enough.
| rijoja wrote:
| Well I learned to program and how UNIX systems worked from
| having a computer and a library. Today you wouldn't really
| need the library if you have an internet connection.
| conanbatt wrote:
| The question is what would have been the result of giving
| each kid 500U$S instead, which is what the computers cost.
| forgetfulness wrote:
| You are entirely right, even to the last point, but I think the
| first half of it needs some more support.
|
| The truth is that most of the average or privileged people in
| the developed and developing world won't do anything
| extraordinary with their computers either.
|
| If giving at least one tool to the disadvantaged, that others
| can pretty much take for granted, allows the few among them
| that would pursue their talents with it is already a step up
| from the status quo.
| eric__cartman wrote:
| They absolutely will. And I'm sure many kids, when introduced
| to computers took full advantage of them. Learning new skills
| and being able to integrate themselves better into this
| digitally dependent world. These cases more than make up for
| the ones that only used their machines to play CS 1.6
|
| The government announced that they will be reopening this
| program and begin distributing computers again. I really wish
| them the best of luck even with a global semiconductor
| shortage because, especially nowadays, those that don't have
| access to a computer get severely limited in their
| possibilities. I was only ranting about how this program
| could have been better implemented at the schools.
| duxup wrote:
| Budgeting for equipment is easy. In the US because of how
| funding works budgeting / getting one off grants / short term
| taxes for equipment is often one of the easier (relatively)
| things to do. Meanwhile maintenance, training go by the way
| side.
|
| Training humans is hard, that always is the hard part.
| Daishiman wrote:
| I'm from Argentina as well and I believe this attitude is
| exactly what's wrong when people critiqued this program.
|
| Yes, we _know_ it's not going to fix a flawed education system.
| There's not a person in this entire country who has ever
| believed otherwise, and using it as a critique of the program
| has been nothing but a strawman.
|
| We live a in a world where everything is done online. If the
| only objective this achieved is that kids are now familiar with
| a computer without having learned anything else, it's still
| fantastically successful. They know how to load a spreadsheet.
| They know basic UI paradigms that allow them to navigate crappy
| government or banking web pages. They come of age using social
| networks that they will be able to leverage for work and
| productive connections in the future.
|
| The issue of connectivity is related but ultimately a
| distraction too, as a single poor wi-fi or 3G connection is
| still good for watching low-quality Youtube videos or reading
| tutorials.
|
| It's a middle-of-the-road country with inadequate distribution
| of services. The resources devoted to this program can't be put
| to infrastructure. And imperfectly devised program where
| teachers can't use computers doesn't change the fact that
| computers are so damn useful that you don't depend on a teacher
| to learn how to use it, especially with naturally resourceful
| children.
| sdfin wrote:
| I'm also from Argentina, and about 6 years ago I worked in a
| public school.
|
| I think giving computers to children is good only if the
| quality of education they receive is good. I saw many
| children using their government-given computers to play GTA
| san andreas and Counter Strike while they were in the middle
| of a class, and the teachers didn't do anything about it
| because the government forbids them to take reasonable
| disciplinary measures (A teacher wants a child to pay
| attention during a class? Good luck, there's not much he/she
| can do) and also the goverments forces the teachers to make
| everyone pass every exam because "it is stigmatizing" for the
| children to get a bad mark on a test.
|
| What I comment sounds absurd, but I have no reason to lie
| about it.
|
| So, even if I consider it can be benefical to give computers
| to students in some conditions, in Argentina it's not well
| implemented.
| Daishiman wrote:
| > I think giving computers to children is good only if the
| quality of education they receive is good.
|
| This is 100% false.
|
| A computer allows them to watch YouTube and see tutorials
| on everything they may want to learn. It _forces_ them to
| learn to how read and read quickly to digest all the
| information they get on social networks. It allows them to
| know that there are such things as spreadsheets and
| document editors.
|
| This is so much more important than many classes that it
| can't be understated how critical this is. If these
| children instead had to go to private computer literacy
| classes when they turn 21 because they need to write a CV
| or access a government website, they will have wasted away
| a ton of potential.
|
| All the children mentioned in the article did not have a
| good education, but they had a tool that enabled them to
| make do without it.
| sdfin wrote:
| Yes, I agree, there are many advantages. Still I saw
| various high school level children who were able to get a
| torrent and launch GTA San Andreas in their computers,
| but at the same time they were unable to read in a fluent
| way and of comprehending texts.
|
| I mean, autonomous children, and children with certain
| interests can learn a lot just by having a computers,
| while others won't learn much. But still, the exposure to
| a computer is helfpul for all of them.
|
| I was too extreme in what I expressed. Both having
| computers and good education are positives.
| StavrosK wrote:
| Sure, but it's worth wasting 99 laptops if even we manage
| to enable one child to get a better education, and that's
| even before considering that the other 99 laptops are
| probably not going to be wasted either.
| rank0 wrote:
| This is why internet needs to be treated as a utility
| academonia wrote:
| The "one laptop per child" program put some thought into the
| connectivity problem. They actually designed their machines
| around the idea of distributing content via meshing and
| intermittent "sneakernet" deliveries.
|
| Sadly, the price/performance wasn't quite there in the
| mid-2000s, but it seemed like they had some good ideas:
|
| https://www.theverge.com/2018/4/16/17233946/olpcs-100-laptop...
|
| Maybe the mesh networking could have worked better if it were
| used exclusively for distributing small files, like a P2P
| Whispernet.
| rijoja wrote:
| At the moment though this would be way easier with a plethora
| of ARM boards that are both low cost and powerful. Also with
| star link there would be a way to solve spotty internet
| access in remote areas. What is needed I suppose is a way to
| integrate this with preexisting organisations in the area.
| sumtechguy wrote:
| I was working a project where the BOM was to be at most 50
| bucks. It is kind of difficult to hit that number.
| Ironically while the board was cheap it was all the
| additions to make it a full computer that ended up ruining
| the idea. That was even before we add in any profit margin.
| Add in a screen, keyboard, mouse, power supply, and so on.
| It adds up quickly. What was a 15-20 dollar computer is now
| 70-80 or more plus paying someone to put it together.
| elondaits wrote:
| The idea behind OLPC was in fact that students would be able to
| gain a lot of insights on their own just by being in contact
| with their own computer... it was never a requirement that they
| had to be used effectively in the classroom.
|
| I'm from Argentina and saw kids using their computers while
| sitting in front of a house, hanging (like kids do) and thought
| that was beautiful. Also saw a girl using hers in the park
| while her father pushed her little sister in the swing. Those
| kind of images are inspiring and it's a shame the program was
| cut.
| rijoja wrote:
| Would you know if there are any efforts to create a similar
| effort?
| dmix wrote:
| Did you read the full article? They've already restarted
| the program.
|
| > Conectar Igualdad was supposed to end definitively in
| 2018, but the next year saw a new government come to power.
| The netbook program has since experienced a rebirth as a
| part of a bigger project. "Last year, we released the Juana
| Manso Federal Plan," said Mares Serra, the general manager
| at Educ.ar. "And even though we do not have enough funds to
| cover every grade for now, we have returned to the model
| where the student owns the computer."
|
| The lack of internet is a huge problem still, especially
| considering they call them _net_ book.
| mughinn wrote:
| It was a good program that felt like it was made for one part
| of the country without thinking of the rest. I've heard stories
| of people in Jujuy receiving a computer that didn't have
| electricity at their house
| Daishiman wrote:
| The amount of people who don't have access to electricity in
| Argentina is minuscule compared to the total number of
| children who are aided by computer literacy. This is just
| nitpicky.
| conanbatt wrote:
| The amount of kids living below the poverty line is not a
| small one.
| dep_b wrote:
| It's a netbook. It'll work a few hours after charging. Go to
| school -> charge -> return home and do your homework.
| swiley wrote:
| The silly thing about the whole "no internet so can't distance
| learn" is that people have been doing correspondence schooling
| long before the internet was popular. The homeschooling
| community in the US has quite a few tools even for very hands-
| off parents and Australia has been doing it over the radio/mail
| for a long time.
|
| Blaming poor internet availability is just an excuse for
| failing to look at what's out there and adapt.
| acituan wrote:
| I would say lack of home internet could even be an advantage.
| Because the moment new demographics go online en masse, big
| internet corporations start salivating.
|
| Without home internet no distractions, no dopamine hijacks,
| no content control issues, most importantly no imperative for
| parents to gain technological familiarity if they want to
| protect their kids. Kids could simply use school internet for
| research, download the relevant content, do the deep dive at
| home like they would do with any book from a library.
| MomoXenosaga wrote:
| And this is why Argentina is an economic wonder.
| Koshkin wrote:
| I get what you are saying, but we have to learn to live
| meaningfully, with the internet being now an inalienable
| part of our lives.
| IncRnd wrote:
| > we have to learn to live meaningfully, with the
| internet being now an inalienable part of our lives.
|
| The Internet isn't what gives meaning to life.
| Retric wrote:
| Why? The Amish are the extreme example, but you can
| minimize or even cut out the internet from your life if
| you want to.
| Mediterraneo10 wrote:
| In Europe, more and more banks have been slashing opening
| hours and the number of clerks at physical locations, or
| even closing locations outright, because customers are
| expected to do nearly everything through online banking.
| Many forms of interaction with the state require using
| their online portal, and even if you visit the government
| office, they may just show you how to do what you need
| through the online portal instead of helping you
| directly. Programs to assist people who do not have a
| phone and internet, now focus on giving those people a
| phone and internet; there simply isn't willingness to
| make technology optional for that tiny demographic that
| eschews internet use.
|
| Yes, the Amish have managed in the USA so far, but I
| think that even those days are numbered. Just as many
| Amish already own mobile phones, though they limit their
| use and keep them stashed away most of the time, they
| will be forced to do online things, too.
| swiley wrote:
| Having grown up here I think a lot of people would freak
| out if you _had_ to use computers for services. The town
| I grew up in doesn 't even let you pay taxes online in
| 2021.
| xnyan wrote:
| In addition to what the other responder said (the Amish
| generally have some tech stashed away for use when
| necessary), a part of being Amish is being part of a
| community of other Amish people. Just like in a Orthodox
| Jewish community you will see Sabbath mode elevators on
| Saturday, Amish communities have access to services that
| bridge the internet and their moral code. There are
| services that will print stuff from the internet and have
| it sent to you, or an outsider accountant that manage
| your internet-accessible financial services. They are not
| really cutting the internet or its consequences from
| their life but rather in some cases cutting out their
| direct interaction with the internet.
| zeristor wrote:
| I've had this idea about using IPFS via buses and bus stops
| to disseminate data around.
|
| Probably impractical, India 4G connections seem to have been
| very succeful.
| Scoundreller wrote:
| Does IPFS do a good job of intermittently-online mostly-
| offline nodes with potentially non-linear updates?
|
| Been spitballing the same concepts but with mobile phones
| (on a person or stashed on aircraft doing their weekly
| freight/mail run) where unused space is the bandwidth. Can
| move hundreds of gbs at zero cost but meh latency, as
| you're imagining.
| StavrosK wrote:
| In my experience, IPFS doesn't even do a good job of
| fully-online updates. Maybe my setup was bad, but I
| couldn't get it to reliably and quickly discover content
| on other nodes that were definitely online.
| eric__cartman wrote:
| I completely agree. That's why I mainly blamed the education
| system. I never said these computers are a bad idea. But if
| they don't properly implement any of this technology, the
| number of students that benefit from this are smaller.
| There's always the ones that discover new and interesting
| things on their own, and maybe even make a carrier out of
| them, like the music production examples given here,
| programming, digital art, etc...
|
| This could have been implemented in a better way. That's all
| I'm saying. It's still good that there students are getting
| access to computers at home. Even if 25% of them can take
| advantage of this, that's still a huge number of people.
| andrekandre wrote:
| this kind of thing unfortunately is an old issue, people
| think they can just dump computers (or musical instruments
| as another example) on students and it will be enough
|
| as usual, its the hard work to set up the infrastructure,
| courses, support etc for the students and teachers that is
| needed and almost never gets done
|
| as they say, the music isnt in the piano, same with
| computers
| syedkarim wrote:
| What's the name of the Australian radio/mail distance
| learning program?
| canadianfella wrote:
| School of the air
|
| https://lmgtfy.app/?q=What%27s+the+name+of+the+Australian+r
| a...
| yesenadam wrote:
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/School_of_the_Air
| pelasaco wrote:
| But where in the article is being stated that a computer would
| replace quality education? The article is just describing an
| unexpected artistic scene development.
| gfiorav wrote:
| I think it makes sense even if 1 out of 100 will find it to be
| a deal breaker in their education. The returns you can get from
| that 1% migth pay for the 99% waste.
| audit wrote:
| You mention about lack of connectivity. I agree with you, that
| it is not just the device, but the good quality connectivity,
| that creates this 'jump' in availability of educational content
| / etc.
|
| Is the government making good concentrated efforts to get that
| solved ? Or is the broadband availability is mostly allotted to
| the efforts of private enterprises ?
| dukeofdoom wrote:
| That's cool, but wasn't the Renaissance having masters teach kids
| from very early age their art intensively every day. Youtube is a
| poor substitute for that kind of learning, since most videos
| don't go into in-depth and don't provide critical feedback to the
| pupil.
| AnotherGoodName wrote:
| I've never heard of learning directly off masters as being part
| of the Renaissance? People have been learning directly since
| ancient times but it doesn't scale.
|
| In fact I'll go as far as to say a requirement for masters to
| teach students is an inhibitor to widespread learning and the
| invention of the printing press is what allowed us to avoid
| this. Similar to the revolution that the internet is creating.
| dukeofdoom wrote:
| I'm not disagreeing with you totally. Just want to point out
| that learning from a master, has a lot of benefits that you
| are overlooking. It's not necessarily about the absolute
| number of people that learn some skill at some novice level.
| The Renaissance, especially painting, was about having elite
| level of skill. That kind of skill needs to be taught
| intensively from early age, and get feedback when you are
| doing things wrong. Often with self directed learning the
| problem is "you don't know what you don't know". And you get
| stuck too often. For example, if you want to be an elite
| soccer player, ideally you will start at a very young age,
| and you will need a coach to give feedback and other players
| to play again at increasing competitiveness you can practice
| against. You can't get to elite level from watching youtube
| alone. In fact, the role of the coach in some ways is to
| filter out the people that are not making progress due to
| even things as unfair as natural physical ability. Selecting
| for those players and letting them pass on through the club
| system is how we arrive at someone as skilled as Ronaldo.
| Daishiman wrote:
| The vast majority of us aren't learning from masters; we
| learn who moderately qualified teachers who do what they
| can.
|
| Nothing from what I learned in Uni prepared me to actually
| be a software engineer, yet here I am (as well as most of
| us who are reading this, I assume).
|
| The world's progress doesn't depend on a few exceptional
| people, but it does require a competent majority.
| hbosch wrote:
| >Youtube is a poor substitute for that kind of learning, since
| most videos don't go into in-depth and don't provide critical
| feedback to the pupil.
|
| I agree with the latter point but not the former. Many, many
| YouTube videos on many, many subjects are sufficiently in-
| depth. I remodeled my garage and built my home office in it
| largely with knowledge I learned from builders and tradesmen on
| YouTube. Practices like drywalling, installing and leveling
| doors, sealing concrete, changing light switches and
| receptacles, and doing trimwork are some of the things that I
| knew nothing about and then learned how to do well enough for
| me to WFH at the start of the pandemic.
|
| In the world of music, and especially hip hop, production and
| mastering YouTube is perhaps the best school on the planet. The
| amount of knowledge being uploaded and viewed daily is
| absolutely a world wonder.
|
| And while YouTube authors and creators aren't able to give
| _critical feedback_ directly from their channels, usually, some
| do[1][2][3]... and even if they didn 't, it's not like there is
| a shortage of places on the internet to get critique on your
| art.
|
| ___
|
| 1. Deadmau5 reviewing a track submission:
| https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JY76tO4qe8Q
|
| 2. Well-known hip hop producer Kenny Beats holds beat battles
| on his Twitch, this video is from a contestant who regularly
| enters the contests:
| https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=djLT5OQbHpw
|
| 3. Music reviewer Anthony Fantano routinely does amateur track
| reviews with his fans and followers on Twitch, live:
| https://twitter.com/theneedledrop/status/1405171034538582017
| (Sorry, no VODs on his Twitch that I can see... which is common
| for music-centric channels unfortunately)
| karaterobot wrote:
| Now that you mention it, it is kind of strange that Renaissance
| is capitalized in the title of the HN submission, when it isn't
| in the article. Oh well.
|
| When I think of an artistic renaissance (lower-case), I think
| of emerging from a fallow period into a new, productive,
| innovative period. The article makes the case that this is what
| happened in Argentina as a result of these netbooks. I can't
| say if that's true or not, but the word choice is reasonable to
| me.
| knolax wrote:
| > it is kind of strange that Renaissance is capitalized
|
| Autocorrect.
| truth_ wrote:
| You have to work with what you have.
|
| And while I am unaware of the music scene of YT, you can get
| access to world-class tutorials in CS topics- from MIT,
| Stanford, etc. They are as good as any.
|
| And, yes, critical feedback is very important, but while you
| cannot properly substitute the feedback you get at unis, you
| can learn to live with and benefit from internet forums,
| groups, subreddits, etc.
| peraspera wrote:
| I noticed no mention to it, so here's the Debian-based OS used by
| this government programme:
|
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Huayra_GNU%2FLinux?wprov=sfla1
| rmason wrote:
| In the fifties and sixties every school child in Detroit got
| musical instruction. They loaned me a violin and my sister
| learned the flute. There was a music company downtown that would
| sell your parents used instruments on a payment plan.
|
| Out of all that came Motown, a strong rock scene (Alice Cooper,
| Bob Seger, Ted Nugent and more) and the birth of electronic
| music. Not to mention scores of excellent session musicians as
| well as a vibrant club scene.
|
| By the seventies the music program was cut due to budget concerns
| and that downtown music store went out of business.
|
| Could it happens again? Detroit just announced a program to give
| every teenager a remanufactured laptop and subsidized Internet.
| There would be more if the schools restarted music instruction
| but poor kids can be pretty resourceful;<).
|
| https://www.freep.com/story/news/education/2020/04/23/detroi...
| samatman wrote:
| Just gotta throw this out there: Bob Seger went to the same
| high school as I did (and Iggy Pop), and that high school is in
| Ann Arbor.
|
| Which also had quality music instruction at all levels of
| education, at least through the 90s, _and_ had Detroit just
| down I-94 for somewhere to go and become a pro at it.
| rmason wrote:
| Both Bob Seger and Iggy Pop became famous performing at the
| famous Grande Ballroom. Along with Ted Nugent, the MC5, Alice
| Cooper and many, many more.
|
| The Grande like many Detroit buildings is an absolute wreck.
| Any other city would have led restoration efforts of this
| famous Rock temple before now but the city lacks funds and
| it's in the worst area of the city.
|
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grande_Ballroom
| wolverine876 wrote:
| I didn't know that about music education in Detroit; that's
| great and an important story.
|
| > poor kids can be pretty resourceful
|
| They are, in fact, like every other kid!
|
| > Out of all that came Motown, a strong rock scene (Alice
| Cooper, Bob Seger, Ted Nugent and more) and the birth of
| electronic music.
|
| And punk (MC5, Iggy Pop & the Stooges) and funkadelic (George
| Clinton, etc.). Also, to nitpick, it was the birth of techno,
| not electronic music.
| rmason wrote:
| You are correct about techno. I didn't mention MC5 (one of my
| all time favorites) because only boomers know them. Iggy Pop
| is an Ann Arbor kid though he came to fame at Detroit clubs.
| desine wrote:
| I may be mistaken, but as a synth head, the stories I heard
| placed the origins of Techno, House, and the birth of
| Electronic Dance Musicin the decline the post Motown / Rock /
| Disco era. Early drum machines and rhythm machines, including
| the Roland TB-303 and TR-808 were not well regarded in the
| studio for music that was performed via traditional
| instruments. Many studios, producers, and musicians purchased
| these state of the art devices for several hundreds of
| dollars (equivalent to thousands, today), then sold them very
| cheaply to pawn shops and secondhand stores in cities,
| because few musicians liked they way they sounded. It was
| then the youths who picked these up cheaply that started
| using them on their own right, and embracing their
| untraditional sound.
|
| I'm sure the musical education was a big factor, but I wanted
| to point out this other part of the story - it relates well
| to TFA. Most of us in the first world would scoff at using a
| 10" netbook with 1 GB of RAM, even if it were free. Similarly
| many musicians scoffed at using drum machine, even if were
| free compared to a costly studio drummer.
| breakfastduck wrote:
| Not even nitpicking - someone reading the original comment
| who doesn't know about music history would read that and
| think the USA created electronic music which is so
| unbelievably far from correct it's cringeworthy.
| rmason wrote:
| Go ahead be my guest and nitpick ;<). Obviously I meant
| techno not electronic music. I am a fan of Kraftwerk and I
| believe they are one of many German electronic music bands.
| cromka wrote:
| US created disco (NYC), funk (NOLA), house (Chicago) and,
| simultaneously with Germany, techno (Detroit). US is also
| where many very crucial synthesizers were built, especially
| Moog (the rest of them came mostly from Japan). I don't
| think it's far fetched to say that US has been a birthplace
| of what we now know as electronic music.
|
| PS. Saying this as an European, into electronic music of
| all genres since 20 years.
| smoldesu wrote:
| I believe they still run programs like this in the richer parts
| of Michigan. I've been out of the Michigan educational system
| for a few years now, but I think Howell and Albion still loan
| instruments. It's pretty heartbreaking that Detroit is
| struggling to pay contractors to remove mold from the classroom
| when 100 miles away they're giving away musical instruments.
| PaulDavisThe1st wrote:
| > and the birth of electronic music.
|
| even with the amended version (s/electronic/techno/), this
| still needs attention ... subthread here, from about a month
| ago: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27093490
| 52-6F-62 wrote:
| And because of Motown you have Neil Young, the Blues Brothers
| films, Dave Chapelle's unflappable impressions of Rick James,
| _Rodriguez_ (kind of?), the list goes on!
| grillvogel wrote:
| yay more soundcloud rappers
| tibbydudeza wrote:
| Kind of ironic that Steve Jobs mocked netbooks when he punted his
| $499 iPad.
| conanbatt wrote:
| The computers cost 500U$S and their market value was less than
| 100U$S.
|
| After one year, 60%+ of the computers were never turned on again.
|
| They sucked, it was a rip-off.
|
| Bonus: 60% of children fall below the poverty line in argentina.
| A great number of these do not have 2 meals a day.
| alamortsubite wrote:
| The article touches on it only briefly, but the subtle irony here
| is the government has starved Argentines of consumer tech for
| decades (via protectionist trade policies). So to me this could
| be described less as a "sparking of a renaissance" and more like
| the opening of a floodgate.
| otrahuevada wrote:
| Couple things;
|
| 1) Just please don't call any random working class neighborhood a
| slum? That's not very helpful.
|
| 2) Given the poverty is a central theme on the article, it could
| have been good to at least in passing involve the Popular
| Orchestras program that does specifically target low income
| townships and neighborhoods all over the country trying to
| involve them in the classical music world and providing them with
| tools to better cope with their reality through music.
| forinti wrote:
| I think we shouldn't call any place a slum. They should be all
| "neighbourhoods".
|
| Slums, villas, favelas, end up being treated differently and
| things that would be unacceptable anywhere else (such as police
| entering your house without a warrant) become perfectly normal.
| dep_b wrote:
| La Boca still has some pretty bad spots, despite being a
| tourist trap in two or three streets.
| otrahuevada wrote:
| I'd say unless you also started calling Retiro -which holds
| one of the oldest actual slums, Villa 31-, Flores, Floresta,
| Colegiales, Paternal, San Justo and Avellaneda slums, hosting
| a couple sketchy places does not a slum make.
|
| I grew up in there and up to a couple years ago when I
| emigrated I visited regularly. Yes, it is a dock workers
| neighborhood packed with immigrants, not a cool location with
| 5 usd empanada-in-a-jar type restaurants but it's not a slum
| unless everything is.
| dzonga wrote:
| this is also adds more to the importance of recycling
| electronics. I always try buy used thinkpad's to give to my folks
| back in africa. because end of day thinkpad's are excellent
| hardware and will continue to be. plus easily repairable.
| hopefully one day, someone I give a thinkpad to, will use to
| nurture some talent.
| mncharity wrote:
| OT, but... While working on One Laptop Per Child, there seemed
| potential to disrupt science education content. Science
| researchers who normally wouldn't prioritize contributing to
| education content, were being drawn in by the possibility of
| rapidly reaching millions instead of thousands of students. The
| "build it and they will come" of a massive new and empty app
| "store". Plus the context of non-commercial "change the world"
| Open Education Resources.
|
| So that didn't happen. And more recently, maybe if VR/AR had
| taken off more sharply, there might have been a similar effect.
| But no.
|
| So here in the future... I don't know how to quickly convey just
| what wretched dreck, err, how wonderfully better content could
| be. How about this: Kindergarten through undergrad, students are
| told the Sun is yellow, in textbooks and outreach. Then an
| infinitesimal few finally get an "oops, sorry, nope, our bad"
| from a graduate class on common misconceptions in astronomy
| education. Incoherent dreck, err, opportunity for wonderful
| improvement, doesn't begin to describe current content.
|
| So my question is, does anyone know of vaguely similar potential
| for disruptive improvement in the quality of science education
| content?
|
| Instructor performance art focuses on specific students, and
| limited outcome goals, under severe resource constraints. Science
| education research focuses on isolated deployable improvements.
| But "big interdisciplinary creative mashup of improvements,
| catalyzed by massive collaboration of research expertise"...
| isn't a thing, isn't something we're set up for, or incentivized
| to do.
|
| But it's what I'm interested in. So, any thoughts?
| StavrosK wrote:
| Not exactly relevant to your post, but I'm dismayed by the
| number of people who refuse to believe that water is blue. I
| don't mind that nobody _knows_ that, it 's an obscure fact, but
| the fact that they refuse to believe something that explains a
| bunch of everyday phenomena (like the color of the sea) makes
| me sad.
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