[HN Gopher] Facebook will start putting ads in Oculus Quest apps
       ___________________________________________________________________
        
       Facebook will start putting ads in Oculus Quest apps
        
       Author : marc__1
       Score  : 141 points
       Date   : 2021-06-16 19:08 UTC (3 hours ago)
        
 (HTM) web link (www.theverge.com)
 (TXT) w3m dump (www.theverge.com)
        
       | cwkoss wrote:
       | AVOID OCULUS!
       | 
       | I have a Quest 1. The game selection is alright but expensive for
       | what it is, but never found an unmodded game that kept my
       | attention for more than ~5 hours - they are mostly VR demos
       | without staying power. Modding is a huge pain in the ass, and
       | every update breaks it again.
       | 
       | I used to use it regularly for BeatSaber + Custom Songs (though
       | its underpowered so can't play _all_ custom songs). For a while I
       | was able to limp along by avoiding updates, but it eventually was
       | broken by one of them, so I could no longer change custom songs.
       | Finally I tried to fix it, failed, and tried to uninstall and
       | just get unmodded BeatSaber working again. Quest decided to
       | update, and now it doesn 't even load the home screen - just a
       | loading icon and then infinite black. I guess I'll try a factory
       | reset, but I'm so frustrated with it I'm not sure it's worth
       | trying to salvage.
       | 
       | It feels like Facebook is deliberately hostile to modding because
       | they want to fortify their walled garden.
       | 
       | I will never buy oculus again. Steam's VR is higher quality, has
       | much better game selection, and is much easier to mod as you
       | want. My friend has an Index and I prefer it in every respect -
       | the only downside is that it's wired and more expensive.
        
         | nickthegreek wrote:
         | I've used Vive and rift. I now own the Quest 2 ($299). You can
         | play any steamVR content on it without a cable using the free
         | Air Link or the $20 Virtual Desktop. Better deal than anything
         | else out there.
        
           | bingidingi wrote:
           | Do you need a FB account to use it with steamVR?
        
             | nickthegreek wrote:
             | You will still need a FB account for the initial setup.
             | Although FB does sell a corporate FB accountless version
             | for $699. I dont know much about that one.
        
               | Judgmentality wrote:
               | I'm curious about the economics of this. Does that mean
               | Facebook thinks it can get $400 worth of personal data
               | for each regular VR headset it sells? I think I read that
               | they make roughly $50 per user a year from their regular
               | website, so that seems like it's too high for my
               | explanation to be plausible.
        
               | dave_sullivan wrote:
               | I'm speculating, but it might be a number designed to
               | discourage purchase rather than reflect actual value. IE,
               | we don't want personal users to buy these so we will
               | price it higher than their data is worth but low enough
               | that we won't completely alienate potential corporate
               | clients. They don't want regular users getting the idea
               | that they can opt out by paying extra because it messes
               | with their whole business model. FB is just dark patterns
               | all the way down.
        
               | murderfs wrote:
               | My guess would be that it's the other way around:
               | corporate buyers aren't very sensitive to the price, so
               | they can jack the price up by $400.
        
               | bingidingi wrote:
               | por que no los dos!
        
             | spurgu wrote:
             | Even if you need one, can't you just create a dummy
             | account?
        
               | cwkoss wrote:
               | Facebook will delete/suspend accounts that they don't
               | believe are connected to a real identity, so you could
               | lose your purchases if you don't use your real name.
        
               | Sr_developer wrote:
               | How wonderful! It is so inspiring to see all the
               | incredible uses of technology coming out from the Mecca
               | of human creativity and accomplishment.
        
               | UnpossibleJim wrote:
               | I think you have to log in and post once every 6 months
               | (or something like that) to keep it active. It can be a
               | silly post. I had one when I was job searching, though
               | they had a surprising amount of data on me anyway. I used
               | an obviously Vietnamese name (I'm white) and they
               | suggested college classmates as my friends.... though my
               | wife does have an account and uses the same IP =/
        
           | mrfusion wrote:
           | Is there like a dumbed down tutorial on how to set this up?
        
           | xnx wrote:
           | Does Air Link offer acceptable performance for low latency
           | games (e.g. Beat Saber)?
        
             | nickthegreek wrote:
             | The best way to use airlink is to have a hardwired
             | connection to the PC and a wifi 6 router close to your
             | Oculus. I use a 5g router in the basement though and my
             | gaming is fine.
             | 
             | Quest2 will also use ASW for helping overcome lag as well.
             | https://www.oculus.com/blog/introducing-
             | asw-2-point-0-better...
             | 
             | But Virtual Desktop just released a new version that uses
             | SSW, and it might even be better.
             | https://uploadvr.com/virtual-desktop-synchronous-spacewarp/
        
       | elliekelly wrote:
       | So will the proceeds from these ad sales go to Facebook? Or the
       | developer of the title(s) the ads are featured on?
       | 
       | Edit- I don't know how I missed this:
       | 
       | > Developers will get a share of the revenue from ads in their
       | apps, but Facebook isn't publicly revealing the percentage.
        
       | HWR_14 wrote:
       | If you have an old (1st gen) Oculus, is it somehow bricked if you
       | don't register a Facebook account to it? If you just want to use
       | apps not through the Oculus store (either self-developed,
       | sideloaded or through Steam)?
        
         | cwkoss wrote:
         | Mine is bricked, and my facebook account was attached. Tried to
         | reinstall a mod I was using for over a year that a system
         | update broke, and now whenever I turn it on it just shows a
         | loading spinner and then hangs on a black screen.
         | 
         | It feels like Facebook is taking a deliberately hostile stance
         | to modding because they can't get their cut.
        
         | cfffcvggg wrote:
         | I believe if you already have an oculus account you don't need
         | Facebook, but I think if you are starting fresh you need a
         | Facebook account.
         | 
         | I have one not hooked up to Facebook, but I've had it for a
         | while. There are a few "social features" that don't work, but
         | it still browses the web and plays oculus store content. With
         | the link cable you can play steam games too. It won't stay that
         | way forever - 2022 I think.
         | 
         | You're better off looking for something else if you don't want
         | Facebook. I am hoping Valve has something by then.
        
       | qq4 wrote:
       | Oh no, think of the gamers! Anyone who didn't see this coming is
       | a fool.
        
       | dstaley wrote:
       | I honestly don't understand the doom and gloom from this
       | announcement, which essentially amounts to "leading VR platform
       | tests new way for developers to monetize applications with
       | personalized ad service". People seem to think this is Facebook
       | injecting ads into games all willy nilly, when in fact it's just
       | a platform for developers to add ads to their VR apps/games. If a
       | developer can't make ends meet with a full up-front purchase
       | price for their app/game, I'm totally supportive of them trying
       | the ad-supported route. At the end of the day, I'm glad that
       | Facebook/Oculus is giving developers access to this so that they
       | can make their own choices regarding the monetization of their
       | software.
        
         | kd0amg wrote:
         | > this announcement, which essentially amounts to "leading VR
         | platform tests new way for developers to monetize applications
         | with personalized ad service". People seem to think this is
         | Facebook injecting ads into games all willy nilly, when in fact
         | it's just a platform for developers to add ads to their VR
         | apps/games.
         | 
         | This piece (along with others I've read) attributes the action
         | only to Facebook and not to game developers, so readers are
         | likely to miss that part.
        
         | nickthegreek wrote:
         | I think the issue with this announcement is that Blaston isn't
         | a free game. Its a game that you pay for and it will now also
         | shows you ads.
        
           | imglorp wrote:
           | They're also basically captive eyeballs. We've never had an
           | ad you literally could not look away from. You can't even
           | look at something else while the ad plays; you'd need to take
           | off the headset and put it back on a minute later, repeat for
           | every ad.
        
             | jowsie wrote:
             | Closing your eyes is an option.
        
           | downrightmike wrote:
           | Just like TV. Remember that?
        
           | an_opabinia wrote:
           | They should focus on giving Blaston depth, but that's a
           | different discussion.
        
           | dstaley wrote:
           | That's a totally fair point, but the argument to that is
           | "don't support this developer" not "sell your Oculus Quest".
           | Getting mad at Oculus for this is basically like getting mad
           | at Apple because developers are including ads in their paid
           | apps.
        
           | grecy wrote:
           | I totally agree with you, though it's important to remember
           | that ship sailed _long_ ago.
           | 
           | You pay for a TV, and it shows you ads. You pay for a train
           | ticket, and the walls and platforms are plastered with ads.
           | You buy the fancy surround sound option in your car, and it
           | plays ads. You buy a magazine, and it's mostly ads. And so on
           | and so on. Our entire world has been taken over by ads.
           | 
           | I think it's important to recognize this not so we let FB /
           | Oculus off the hook, but so we can see it's an enormous
           | problem overall that needs to be addressed.
        
           | Spartan-S63 wrote:
           | I think this is the bigger issue. It's the double-dipping
           | from both ends -- getting money from the consumer and getting
           | more money from advertisers. It's like cable television all
           | over.
           | 
           | Why can't they: 1. Be less greedy 2. Raise the price so I can
           | be guaranteed to see no ads
        
             | solaceb wrote:
             | It would be even better if they didn't leverage their
             | success in one industry (advertising) by publicly posing
             | solely as another kind of company (social media) in order
             | to buy up other companies (Oculus) to make a lateral
             | entrance into VR, an industry unrelated from advertising,
             | just to pollute it with more advertising.
             | 
             | This whole thing is shady IMO from top to bottom and just
             | another aspect of 2021 tech which makes me think we really
             | collectively failed to prevent the wonder of computing from
             | just being another instrument to extract capital from the
             | people and give it to the powerful
        
             | kardos wrote:
             | Or have two price points, one ad-free and one ad-supported
        
         | local_dev wrote:
         | > People seem to think this is Facebook injecting ads into
         | games all willy nilly
         | 
         | Based on previous behavior, this isn't an unfounded line of
         | thinking. Many of the statements made by FB in regards to
         | Occulus, while true at the time of the statement, have been
         | completely reversed.
         | 
         | It is completely fair to expect that, at some point in the
         | future, FB will inject ads into any VR app on Occulus at will.
        
           | cesarb wrote:
           | > It is completely fair to expect that, at some point in the
           | future, FB will inject ads into any VR app on Occulus at
           | will.
           | 
           | "Once we can roll back some of Halliday's ad restrictions, we
           | estimate we can sell up to 80% of an individual's visual
           | field before inducing seizures [...]"
        
           | BHSPitMonkey wrote:
           | That's about as likely as Nintendo or Sony indiscriminately
           | rendering ads on top of the viewport while a game is running
           | on their consoles. It's never gonna happen.
        
             | local_dev wrote:
             | I disagree. Nintendo and Sony don't earn the majority of
             | their profits by selling ads. Facebook does. Nintendo and
             | Sony customer base is people buying games while FB's
             | customer base is advertisers. At the end of the day, each
             | company will do what it must to retain/acquire customers.
             | 
             | Edit: fixing typos
        
             | jfk13 wrote:
             | About as likely as youtube interrupting a chamber music
             | concert or classical symphony to show ads. It's never gonna
             | happen... surely, right?
        
         | alkonaut wrote:
         | I don't mind ads I mind Facebook showing ads because they know
         | what I had for breakfast and I can't even remember it myself.
         | 
         | Oculus showing ads for monetization is fine. I suspect they'll
         | somehow try to tap into Facebook data to target these ads
         | though.
        
           | squarefoot wrote:
           | And if you ate too much fat for say the last 10 years, the
           | information is there, and someone could sell it to your
           | insurance company.
        
       | binarymax wrote:
       | We can sell up to 80% of the view before inducing seizures
       | https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=KpPE85Jogjw
        
       | root_axis wrote:
       | Why isn't there a bigger push to regulate the pernicious
       | injection of ads into every aspect of society? There is regularly
       | discussion about the dominance of big tech and often suggestions
       | that we enshrine big tech as permanent fixtures into our life by
       | designating them as necessary utilities that we pump into every
       | home like running water, yet we rarely if ever hear any
       | discussion of cracking down on ads, which are actually the
       | primary source of power for big tech and also the source of all
       | the things we hate most about them (tracking, behavior and
       | demographic analysis, data collection, advertiser driven content
       | agendas that result in bans etc). I wish this were more of a
       | concern to the public.
        
         | avalys wrote:
         | Because the purpose of regulation is not simply "stop people
         | from doing things I don't like."
         | 
         | Why is it that the default response of so many adults today is
         | to demand that an authority figure impose their own will on
         | someone else?
        
           | root_axis wrote:
           | Every faction across the political spectrum has interest in
           | using authority to impose their will on others, that's the
           | only purpose of politics. What I'm asking is why so much
           | attention is given to impositions that would do nothing to
           | diminish big tech dominance rather than addressing aspects
           | that would not only curtail their dominance, but also move us
           | away from the ad riddled dystopia that is unanimously
           | reviled.
        
           | wanderer2323 wrote:
           | I live in a downtown of a medium-size city and right now when
           | I look out of my window I don't see a single ad. This is
           | because the advertizing is banned. Unregulated capitalism
           | would NEVER allow that. A view without ads is not for sale
           | without regulations. Same for 'a clean air', 'a clear water'
           | and million other things where an unregulated enterprise
           | would happily shit its externalities all over the commons to
           | make an extra cent.
           | 
           | That is why advertising should be regulated far more heavily
           | than it is right now.
           | 
           | As for why 'default response of so many adults today is to
           | demand that an authority figure blah blah blah', as you have
           | asked -- it's not, stop building strawmen.
        
           | goldenchrome wrote:
           | As a society we've mostly regulated away the truly dangerous
           | threats to a safe and healthy life. Now the wealthy among us
           | have too much anxious energy that gets spent decrying things
           | that merely bother them. Without a realistic frame of
           | reference, these annoyances balloon into huge threats in
           | their mind's eye.
           | 
           | I think rich people have always thought this way, but
           | nowadays there's more people who live a rich life thanks to
           | technological developments.
        
         | cwkoss wrote:
         | I think society needs to have a reckoning around advertisement
         | and decide what kinds of ads are moral and societally good.
         | There are lots of categories I'd love to ban if king:
         | 
         | - All advertisements to children
         | 
         | - Advertisements for prescription drugs
         | 
         | - Advertisements that intend to evoke emotional responses
         | rather than inform:
         | 
         | --- Many ads are designed to make the viewer feel inferior so
         | they want to buy the product to remedy the negative emotions
         | the ads caused
         | 
         | --- Many ads seek to irrationally associate a brand with a
         | positive feeling, which overrides consumers ability to make
         | rational purchasing decisions
         | 
         | --- Many ads seek vague 'brand awareness' without any
         | informational content
         | 
         | I think there is a narrow case around informative
         | advertisements "Hey this product or service exists, it might be
         | something you want" that can be societally useful, but the vast
         | majority of video and print ads are not doing that.
        
           | lamontcg wrote:
           | I'd ban all ads that were intrusive, so that advertising was
           | only allowed if you had to go looking for it, rather than
           | having it come looking for you. With a bit of an allowance
           | for stuff like sandwich boards directly in front of shops or
           | "so-and-so's bed+breakfast 3 miles ->" kinds of signs.
        
         | [deleted]
        
         | m0llusk wrote:
         | It could be argued that ads are inherently attention diluting
         | and therefore can only be harmful. Some research might help but
         | this is a difficult subject to study.
        
       | mark_l_watson wrote:
       | re: "self-sustaining platform" for VR development
       | 
       | I pay for the VR apps, that is not self-sustaining? This is like
       | ads in the movie Minority Report - yuck.
        
         | BHSPitMonkey wrote:
         | You're probably going to see this in free social apps like
         | VRChat, not inside of immersive games.
        
           | practice9 wrote:
           | I'm not opposed to seeing ads if they're relevant and
           | stylized thematically for the game / app
        
           | jabbany wrote:
           | That's being optimistic... Remember when EA put ads in games
           | that people paid for?
           | 
           | They will most certainly try to put it in immersive games if
           | they can get away with it...
        
             | BHSPitMonkey wrote:
             | And? There's a million other ways a VR developer can make
             | their game suck; at the end of the day, the quality of the
             | experience is in their hands.
        
           | rpdillon wrote:
           | Blaston is a $10 app.
           | https://www.oculus.com/experiences/quest/2307085352735834/
        
         | twobitshifter wrote:
         | Given Facebook's ads, I was thinking more like idiocracy.
        
       | tomc1985 wrote:
       | Another Silicon Valley rug pull...
       | 
       | When will we ever learn?
        
       | zmmmmm wrote:
       | Step 1 - drive competitors from the market by selling massively
       | subsidised hardware below cost.
       | 
       | Step 2 - announce advertising is necessary because the
       | "ecosystem" is unsustainable.
       | 
       | I don't know how this is not attracting the attention of
       | competition regulators. Coming in 10 years from now after the
       | damage is done will be way too late.
        
       | only_as_i_fall wrote:
       | Remember when FB bought oculus and evangelists insisted that
       | people were overreacting?
       | 
       | Can we officially admit that the naysayers were right and that fb
       | not only killed the oculus brand but perhaps even tarnished
       | public opinion of this generation of VR?
        
         | nickthegreek wrote:
         | Im not a FB fan, But they didn't really kill the oculus
         | brand... its now the most popular VR headset on SteamVR.
         | 
         | https://www.tweaktown.com/news/78089/oculus-quest-2-is-now-t...
         | 
         | "According to Valve's data, Quest 2 owners comprise 22.91% of
         | all SteamVR users, while another 21.58% use a Rift S headset.
         | Oculus also owns another 13.49%, with the original Rift, and
         | Quest headsets added. All told, Oculus is responsible for
         | 57.98% of all VR headsets used on Valve's platform."
        
           | nitrogen wrote:
           | This doesn't tell you how big VR might have been if Oculus
           | remained independent, or tied to a less controversial parent
           | company and profit model.
        
             | spaceprison wrote:
             | I would have one if it weren't for the fb requirement and
             | this outcome is exactly why I don't.
             | 
             | Are people actually shocked that a company with such a
             | pristine reputation for carrying about their
             | produ..um..Users now wants to jam ads directly into their
             | eyes?
        
             | milkytron wrote:
             | They would have had at least one more sale (I still want it
             | but not the Facebook part).
        
           | [deleted]
        
           | httpsterio wrote:
           | I actively discourage anyone in my social circles to remain
           | clear from Oculus. I wouldn't say that VR has taken off yet
           | and Oculus could've been the needed impetus had Facebook kept
           | their fingers out of it. I mean, if Facebook just owned the
           | brand and didn't try to force Facebook down the throats of
           | its' users, it would've been quite a viable option.
        
           | ThatPlayer wrote:
           | You can check Steam's hardware survey for more up to date
           | stats. Quest 2 is now up to 29.33%
           | 
           | https://store.steampowered.com/hwsurvey
        
           | [deleted]
        
           | cwkoss wrote:
           | Does facebook make profit on each quest sold? I was under the
           | impression it was a loss leader subsidized by their
           | advertising income and justified by projected future
           | monetization.
           | 
           | Another commenter mentioned that the corporate no-account-
           | required model costs $699, so that may be a more fair
           | comparison. Is facebook subsidizing each Quest 2 by $400 (and
           | assuming they'll be able to extract roughly that amount from
           | each user)?
        
           | type0 wrote:
           | They are selling us the Brave New World
        
           | judge2020 wrote:
           | FB probably sells near-cost and makes all their money on the
           | backend from taking 30% or so of sales of apps, much like
           | consoles (and iOS minus making money on the front end as
           | well).
        
         | whoisjuan wrote:
         | How? Facebook invests billions of dollars into advancing the
         | tech behind Oculus, reducing the form factor and making it
         | economically viable, and the conclusion is that FB killed the
         | Oculus brand and tarnished VR?
         | 
         | I don't understand why people are not capable of separating the
         | good from the bad. Of course you can shit on FB regarding many
         | things but this is objectively not one of those things.
        
           | tibyat wrote:
           | "objectively"? no. What has become clear to all unbiased
           | parties is that all FB has done is invest billions of dollars
           | in developing a new ad revenue stream.
           | 
           | it's amazing to me how often someone on HN defending
           | FB...turns out to be a FB employee.
        
           | kstrauser wrote:
           | I know people, including me and my kid, who absolutely refuse
           | to buy a VR system that requires a Facebook login. Of course
           | I don't have numbers to back this, but I suspect there are
           | quite a lot of people who feel the same way.
           | 
           | Here's a worst-case hypothetical reason why: people _will_
           | watch porn on VR. Maybe not everyone, but a lot of people.
           | Even people who wouldn 't want to watch it regularly are
           | likely to get curious and check it out at least once to see
           | what it's like. Now, raise your hand: who wants Facebook
           | having access to their porn habits?
           | 
           | Oculus-the-tech is cool. Oculus-the-Facebook-client is
           | completely dead to me. No way, no thanks.
        
           | jabbany wrote:
           | I think people are not happy about _how_ FB made it
           | "economically viable" (by locking the system to tie in with
           | an FB account and now by running ads).
           | 
           | Most people probably want to see a VR platform that can stand
           | on its own profit mechanisms. Not something that is
           | parasitically dependent on another platform's ad revenue
           | (either directly with internal ads or indirectly via FB
           | accounts). Instead of taking time to explore that (which is
           | what many believed would happen after the acquisition), FB
           | took the easy way out by bolting existing revenue systems on,
           | which then in turn kills any motivation to explore options.
           | 
           | Similar kinds of worries always play out for
           | technologies/platforms that are good but aren't profitable
           | yet which then get acquired. Will the new owners help the
           | technology stand on its own, or will they take the easy way
           | out and treat it as a mechanism to bring new users onto their
           | existing revenue stream.
        
             | shadowgovt wrote:
             | I've been following VR technology's development for over
             | two decades now, and the concern that those profit
             | mechanisms don't exist at the margins necessary to sustain
             | the business is real. I think people underestimate how
             | fragile this technology space is; we're talking a system
             | that only a percentage of the population can use without
             | experiencing motion sickness, requiring a dedicated usage
             | space that is hard to share with other uses in a family
             | setting, which (up until the most recent iterations) sold
             | at a price point that was uncomfortable to most people for
             | a luxury product.
             | 
             | More revenue streams to support it is better than fewer, at
             | least at this stage of its development.
        
               | neartheplain wrote:
               | >I think people underestimate how fragile this technology
               | space is; we're talking a system that only a percentage
               | of the population can use without experiencing motion
               | sickness
               | 
               | FWIW the Quest and Index have largely solved this
               | problem. There are still certain experiences in VR which
               | require more motion-sickness acclimation, such as roller
               | coasters or fast-moving shooters. However, 1:1 motion
               | experiences no longer cause problems for even the most
               | sensitive players, in my experience.
               | 
               | I've demoed current VR hardware to highly sensitive
               | friends and family members without issue. The same
               | friends and family couldn't tolerate earlier generations
               | of VR for more than a few minutes.
        
               | shadowgovt wrote:
               | I completely agree that the latest generation is much
               | better than previous tech.
               | 
               | I'm referring to the fact that 3D will always inherently
               | have a floor of non-acclimatable users that TV doesn't.
               | People experience motion sickness from TV also, but it
               | can be mitigated by sitting further back. There's
               | fundamentally no similar option in VR if the immersion
               | alone is disorienting; the immersion is the point.
        
               | neartheplain wrote:
               | 100% anecdotal, but: my elderly mother can't watch kids
               | play console games on TV without rapidly experiencing
               | motion sickness. She does just fine in VR (mini-golf is
               | her favorite game on the Quest).
               | 
               | I'd love to see actual data on the issue. Until then, I'm
               | optimistic that VR's floor of non-acclimatable users is
               | similar to or smaller than the same for regular video
               | game consoles.
        
               | jabbany wrote:
               | Theoretically, the point of venture capital investment
               | was exactly to give such a "no-strings-attached" period
               | of buffer time to discover what revenue models might work
               | for a new piece of technology with promise. (In reality
               | there are many other confounds...)
               | 
               | It's why many people wished to see that rather than an
               | acquisition (where the new owners can do what they want)
               | for Oculus. Back in the day, FB tried to placate these
               | worries by suggesting that even with an acquisition they
               | would try to behave like a VC and keep Oculus more-or-
               | less independent. At this point it is clear that that
               | dream is over.
               | 
               | People aren't angry, just disappointed. Eventually we
               | will all lose hope on these things. Heck, many already
               | have.
        
           | only_as_i_fall wrote:
           | Except that FB acquired oculus after they were already
           | shipping their prototype as a devkit.
           | 
           | Considering HTC was able to launch what is arguably a better
           | product within the same year as oculus I fail to see what
           | facebook brought to the table besides dark patterns and
           | forced privacy violations.
        
             | jsnell wrote:
             | Facebook made a standalone $300 device that just works. The
             | other players in the market are making $1000 devices that
             | require me to be wired to a $1000 gaming PC.
             | 
             | The Quest 2 is an incredibly attractive device, and I
             | basically can't imagine ever getting a wired VR headset at
             | this point. From my perspective, Facebook made both the
             | most attractive device and the best software ecosystem. I
             | suspect Oculus as a standalone company could not have
             | managed that.
             | 
             | That said, introducing ads to paid apps is a really bad
             | idea. It's going to totally undermine consumer trust, and
             | kneecap the ecosystem they built.
             | 
             | (And yes, I also had a visceral distaste when having to
             | finally make a Facebook account to be able to use the Quest
             | 2. But I can recognize that unifying the account
             | infrastructure is the correct engineering choice, there's
             | no need to assume malice).
        
               | Retric wrote:
               | FB didn't make a 300$ headset, they heavily subsidized a
               | headset. So, their going to need to make a lot of money
               | from users to break even.
        
               | jsnell wrote:
               | I doubt that. The Quest 2 is probably being sold at a
               | tiny loss at launch, just like most gaming consoles are,
               | and will at the end of its lifespan be sold at a small
               | profit.
               | 
               | But where they're looking to make the money is from
               | getting a cut from software sales, again just like
               | consoles. Advertising is a garbage business compared to
               | owning a popular software platform like that.
               | 
               | Let's do some back of the envelope calculations. Let's
               | say you can show 10 ads per hour, the average VR user
               | uses 30 minutes of VR per day, a CPM of $10, a 50%
               | platform vs. app cut of ad revenue, and a device lifetime
               | of 5 years. I think these are all generous estimates.
               | 
               | 10 ads / hour * 0.5 hours / day * 365 days / year * $10 /
               | 1000 ads * 50% * 5 years = $45.60 total ad revenue for
               | the lifetime of the device.
               | 
               | They cannot be subsidizing this for $400 and expecting to
               | make it up on ads. The numbers just don't add up. (But I
               | don't think they're selling it for a multi-hundred dollar
               | loss at all.)
               | 
               | On the other hand, in 9 months of using the device I've
               | bought about $150 in software, with Facebook's cut
               | probably being about $45. Except that is over 9 months,
               | not 5 years. This is where the money is.
        
               | Retric wrote:
               | That's some very low estimates for lifetime VR
               | advertising revenue and usage of just 900 hours per
               | device and 10 ads per hour. By comparison FB makes
               | 32$/user as a global average in a world of ad blockers.
               | The kind of users buying VR headsets are worth
               | significantly more than average, they can't block ads,
               | and they practically need to take the device off to skip
               | them.
               | 
               | This isn't 4 year olds mindlessly watching YouTube, these
               | are the ideal demographic to sell stuff. At even 3.5x
               | your ultra low estimate FB is at 1/2 the retail price of
               | the device. Massive subsides are an easy choice for FB
               | assuming VR doesn't die off quickly.
        
           | neartheplain wrote:
           | It's currently impossible to tell how Facebook has damaged
           | the Oculus brand, simply due to the lack of a credible mobile
           | (aka "untethered") VR competitor. Once someone like Valve,
           | HTC, Sony, or Apple finally release untethered hardware at a
           | competitive price point, we'll see whether customers are
           | really willing to tolerate forced Facebok account integration
           | and ads in VR.
           | 
           | Personally, I absolutely love the Quest's price point, form
           | factor, and overall software quality. At the same time, I
           | despise Oculus as a brand and Facebook as a company for all
           | of the above. I'm prepared to jump ship the split second an
           | alternative is available.
        
         | [deleted]
        
         | RandallBrown wrote:
         | I thought VR was a goofy gimmick until I bought an Oculus Quest
         | and played with it.
         | 
         | From my point of view they drastically improved both the Oculus
         | brand and the overall opinion of VR as a usable technology.
         | 
         | Oculus may have done that without Facebook or it may have
         | stayed tethered to a PC and continued to be awkward to use. I
         | don't really know.
        
           | xarope wrote:
           | I really like the Quest 2 as a standalone (non-tethered)
           | device, I hope FB doesn't end up killing it...!
        
       | Simulacra wrote:
       | Anyone want to buy a barely, used mint condition Oculus Quest?
        
         | [deleted]
        
         | enumjorge wrote:
         | Nope. But thanks for the offer ;)
        
       | Sr_developer wrote:
       | At this moment of the VR craze/wave/hype if you buy an Oculus and
       | you get burned by Facebook you kinda deserve it. They have
       | demonstrated time and time again how shitty they are.
        
         | [deleted]
        
       | shadowgovt wrote:
       | I'm pretty fine with this, though I won't be interested in paying
       | $20 for a game that also has ads in it. Blaston is $10, which...
       | Enh, that's pushing my personal threshold.
       | 
       | But if it allows developers to build a free ecosystem that's ad-
       | supported, that'll lower the activation cost to new VR ideas,
       | increase iteration, and generally could increase the health of
       | the whole ecosystem in terms of experience diversity.
        
       | baby wrote:
       | What's the difference with mobile games choosing to show ads?
        
         | hn8788 wrote:
         | There's not much difference, and that's the problem. Mobile
         | games are notorious for being asset flips and shovelware
         | because being funded by ads means they don't have to worry
         | about making something worth paying for. I imagine people who
         | were excited about AAA VR games are disappointed that it looks
         | like VR technology is turning into a race to the bottom with
         | ads subsidizing hardware costs.
        
         | downrightmike wrote:
         | I sure as hell don't play those. Not these either.
        
         | [deleted]
        
         | zmmmmm wrote:
         | One difference is, in your headset you literally can't look
         | away. It can track your head movements and glue the ad in front
         | of your eyeballs.
        
         | jabbany wrote:
         | I think it's closer to YouTube running ads in videos---it's
         | more of a platform level thing rather than a "cross platform ad
         | SDK".
        
         | treesprite82 wrote:
         | Using your headset requires linking a Facebook profile (with
         | your real info if you don't want to risk its deletion), and
         | this will use information from it to target ads.
         | 
         | VR ads have a lot of invasive potential which I don't think
         | people trust Facebook to stay away from. Ads on the dashboard,
         | ads that stick to your vision, ads that pause when you take the
         | headset off, ads you have to look at to proceed, etc. There's
         | not much of a limit when it's Facebook's hardware on your head.
        
         | amelius wrote:
         | Little difference. They suck too. Except you can still use your
         | mobile device for other purposes.
        
           | baby wrote:
           | Right, but it doesn't make the whole platform bad. Just pay
           | for games that don't have ads.
        
             | shadowgovt wrote:
             | People have concern that such a thing won't exist, or will
             | be the tiniest margin of games.
             | 
             | Personally, I respect that fear but I think it's going to
             | be alright. If we're talking about an ecosystem with
             | hundreds / thousands of games and 90% have ads as opposed
             | to one with fifty games with no ads that cost $10+ each,
             | I'm in favor of the more diverse experience space.
        
       | honkycat wrote:
       | Facebook has done an amazing job turning an interesting piece of
       | technology into a worthless ad-ridden piece of junk.
        
         | lovegoblin wrote:
         | It has done this to everything it's touched, including
         | facebook.com itself.
        
         | BHSPitMonkey wrote:
         | Because a few developers will choose to place ads inside their
         | apps? There will soon be cross-platform ad plugins like this in
         | PCVR software, too.
         | 
         | The only reason you don't see it more already is that
         | advertisers haven't figured out how to value what exactly
         | they'd be buying; There's so many more factors regarding
         | visibility/readability/placement in a 3D virtual environment,
         | and there's a big difference between a real-life billboard that
         | moves slowly past every driver on the interstate vs a canvas in
         | a VR game where players might teleport right by in a hurry.
         | Even with Facebook solving the technical aspects of measuring
         | impressions/"engagement" in virtual worlds, I don't think the
         | platform will attract many advertisers outside of the gaming/VR
         | industry itself.
        
       | anvemaha wrote:
       | I was just starting to come around to the idea of buying a Quest
       | 2 :(
       | 
       | I had a CV1, but sold it some years ago, I found the usb-attached
       | lighthouses too messy for my setup. Ideally I would like to get
       | rid of the headset cable as well. I pretty much only played Beat
       | Saber so Quest 2 would have been perfect!
       | 
       | I guess it's time to order a Valve Index?
        
         | Erwin wrote:
         | I've used my Quest 2 more in the last month, than the Rift S in
         | the 2 years I've had it. With the Q2 there are no cables to get
         | in the way, and I can put it on and play Beat Saber instantly -
         | no steamvr to fiddle with. It's a more realistic Wii Sports at
         | this point, but a fun purchase.
        
         | nickthegreek wrote:
         | You can just use the quest 2 with Virtual Desktop and SteamVR
         | and save yourself some money.
        
         | cwkoss wrote:
         | I would not recommend Quest 2 for BeatSaber unless you'll be
         | content without using any mods or custom songs. If you decide
         | to go this route, I'd suggest deleting Wifi connection
         | information once you get it working the way you like and only
         | changing songs via Sidequest, because system updates have
         | broken custom song functionality multiple times.
         | 
         | You may need to download a "pirated" copy of an older beatsaber
         | version, because afaik, the most recent update broke it again.
        
           | gundmc wrote:
           | If they are already using a CV1, I suspect they have a gaming
           | PC capable of driving beatsaber. With a quest 2 you can
           | wirelessly stream from your PC to the headset to play any
           | game including beatsaber custom songs.
           | 
           | I've had Good experience with the latency on this setup, but
           | I do have my PC connected to a 5 GHz router via ethernet and
           | play in an area next to my router.
        
         | cowgoesmoo wrote:
         | I also have the CV1 and am looking to upgrade. The Index has
         | better tracking (using lighthouse) and a larger FOV than the
         | Quest 2 but much worse resolution. If you want the inside-out
         | tracking and higher resolution of the Quest 2 but don't want to
         | deal with Facebook, check out the HP Reverb G2. It's pricier
         | than the Quest 2 but still much cheaper than the Index.
         | 
         | Resolution comparison between Index, Quest 2, and Reverb G2:
         | https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ny_OPsxHQmU
         | 
         | Resolution comparison between CV1, Vive, and Quest 2:
         | https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FTaYQNghAxI
        
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