[HN Gopher] Technology Saves the World
       ___________________________________________________________________
        
       Technology Saves the World
        
       Author : elsewhen
       Score  : 78 points
       Date   : 2021-06-16 13:34 UTC (9 hours ago)
        
 (HTM) web link (future.a16z.com)
 (TXT) w3m dump (future.a16z.com)
        
       | semiconduction wrote:
       | Humanity has starved, struggled and regularly died in mass for
       | millenia.
       | 
       | Now the population is 100 times larger than it was a few
       | centuries ago, and more and more people are living in a post-
       | scarcity society.
       | 
       | And yes, thanks to all the pioneers, entrepeneurs and geniuses
       | that took an idea or insight into a mass market product. They are
       | who truly deserve the credit.
        
         | bttrfl wrote:
         | What if all this is because we took a giant environmental
         | credit that we won't be able to pay back? It's hard to argue
         | that child mortality dropped, literacy increased and so on, but
         | at the same time we are facing existential threats due to
         | warming, lack of water, loss of biodiversity and so on.
         | 
         | We are also enjoying a relatively peaceful period (despite
         | what's happening in Syria and tens of other places) on a global
         | scale, but history shows that every single global conflict gets
         | more deadly. Will we survive WW3?
         | 
         | Let's not prise the day too early.
        
           | XorNot wrote:
           | No, let's absolutely praise it.
           | 
           | Because the existential threats only exist because of
           | political malfeasance. This has never been a technological
           | problem: even the potentially disastrous consequences of
           | climate change only really manifest because of - again -
           | politics. Because governments _won 't_ spend to protect their
           | own citizens, because of corruption and greed.
           | 
           | Little has changed on that front in thousands of years.
           | Technology enabled almost everything we have now - even those
           | improvements in governance we got (i.e. mass communications
           | and the telegraph made coordinating large empires and
           | alleviating local resource shortages via logistics possible).
        
             | bttrfl wrote:
             | Technology is neither source of good nor evil. Just like a
             | hammer ain't to blame or prise. It's about its application
             | and how tech is developed and applied is decided based on
             | "politics" if you want.
             | 
             | However, ever-evolving technology leads to globalisation
             | and acceleration of processes. With shitty tech we can make
             | lots of mistakes and pay small, local consequences. Shitty
             | nails result in a shitty coffin. Shitty fridges result in
             | an ozone hole. Our margin of error for doing the "politics"
             | right is shrinking every day.
        
           | mavhc wrote:
           | We have been stealing from the future to pay for the present,
           | as long as we keep stealing more and more from the future
           | it'll be fine!
           | 
           | Or be forced to not cheat and invent ways to live within our
           | means
        
             | wizzwizz4 wrote:
             | Unfortunately, the future is now.
        
           | carapace wrote:
           | > history shows that every single global conflict
           | 
           | Er, not to be pissy, but isn't that a sample size of two?
        
             | bttrfl wrote:
             | It's your right to be pissy. Let's drop the "global" then.
             | 
             | I counted 18 wars with upper deaths range above 1M between
             | 500BC and 1800AC. There were 29 of them after 1800. I
             | didn't bother to sum the casualties. Full list:
             | 
             | https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_wars_by_death_toll
        
               | WalterBright wrote:
               | There are a lot more people today, too. Of course war
               | death tolls will be larger.
        
               | carapace wrote:
               | Fair enough. It also adds to your point that the earlier
               | wars tended to be a lot longer than the later ones,
               | meaning the intensity of the killing has been increasing,
               | eh?
               | 
               | FWIW I'm usually on the doom-and-gloom side of the
               | argument (benefit vs. hazard of tech).
        
           | semiconduction wrote:
           | I don't fall for environmental sensationalism
           | 
           | The world is in it's most "livable" state ever
        
       | phtrivier wrote:
       | Half joking take : what "saved the world" (the deal is hardly
       | done, unfortunately) was a mix of technology, incredible
       | dedication, and vast amount of printed money.
       | 
       | Would medtechs have succeed if they were not sure governments
       | would pay "whatever it costs" for vaccines ? Not sure.
       | 
       | Would people have paid Disney+ without government help funds?
       | Maybe less.
       | 
       | 2020 was probably better handled than 2008 here.
       | 
       | However, I'm conviced the healthcare workers would have made
       | their insane efforts no matter what the policy ; and the
       | governments might have failed them so far. We'll have to do
       | better for them next time - they saved the day, in the end.
       | 
       | So, now covid 19 is on the list of examples (like Manhattan,
       | Apollo, etc...) where "printing unlimited amount of money to have
       | dedicated people solve a problem" worked.
       | 
       | When do we start doing that on climate change ?
        
         | only_as_i_fall wrote:
         | 3-6 months after it begins to affect the ultra wealthy would be
         | my guess.
        
       | belatw wrote:
       | Tl;dr: billionaire wanks off over the merits of venture
       | capitalism and half assed technological solutions to social
       | problems; wants you to do the same.
        
       | klelatti wrote:
       | > Permanently divorcing physical location from economic
       | opportunity gives us a real shot at radically expanding the
       | number of good jobs in the world while also dramatically
       | improving quality of life for millions, or billions, of people.
       | 
       | This doesn't seem consistent with what is happening in A16Z's own
       | backyard. Either Marc knows something we don't or this is
       | unwarranted hyperbole.
        
         | jellicle wrote:
         | > > Permanently divorcing physical location from economic
         | opportunity gives us a real shot at radically expanding the
         | number of good jobs in the world while also dramatically
         | improving quality of life for millions, or billions, of people.
         | 
         | > This doesn't seem consistent with what is happening in A16Z's
         | own backyard. Either Marc knows something we don't or this is
         | unwarranted hyperbole.
         | 
         | Well, let's run that through the VC->English converter:
         | 
         | "We hope to lay off all the first world engineers living in
         | Silicon Valley and hire exclusively the cheapest possible
         | people living in the cheapest countries. We can hire twice as
         | many bodies (double the good jobs, just not in the USA!) for
         | one-tenth as much money, pocket all the profits, and if anyone
         | complains (perhaps all the laid off engineers) we can talk
         | about how we're raising people out of poverty, how dare they
         | complain."
         | 
         | My version is admittedly not as flowery as the original.
        
           | klelatti wrote:
           | Or maybe: "Some of our partners want to move to Texas. All
           | the money they will spend there will move 10s of people out
           | of poverty in Austin."
        
           | the_gipsy wrote:
           | Don't conflate "cheaper" with "cheapest".
           | 
           | Ideally, it would be the same talent, in cheaper regions now.
           | Cut out the landlord middleman.
           | 
           | I know, the worker _is_ getting less, the company is simply
           | subsidising a cheaper home. But many workers, not all but
           | significantly many, will prefer a better lifestyle outside of
           | cities.
        
           | handrous wrote:
           | When you fire 500,000 highly-paid workers, and distribute
           | half their pay to dramatically raise the wages of 5,000,000
           | workers in very poor places and the other half to 50
           | extremely rich capitalists, you've "expand[ed] the number of
           | good jobs in the world" and "dramatically improv[ed] the
           | qualify of life for millions [...] of people".
           | 
           | It's hard to even argue against, ethically--except that,
           | conveniently, the people most vocally pushing it always seem
           | to be in a "heads I win, tails you lose" position and are
           | never the ones who will lose anything to make it happen.
           | Usually quite the opposite.
        
       | csbartus wrote:
       | I didn't read the post, just checked the comments. 23 out of 23
       | has negative tone.
       | 
       | A tech magnate raises the bar. Goes from 'better' to 'save'.
       | Technology is heaven, himself is a god. Perhaps should be better,
       | for all of the humanity, to tone down this voice a little bit.
       | 
       | Otherwise it leads to idiocracy.
        
       | thehappypm wrote:
       | I found this article to be excellent, unlike most commenters
       | here, perhaps because I had not heard of the author before.
       | Laying out how so many parts of the economy, health system,
       | educational system, and entertainment industries used relatively
       | new technology to keep on' running is a very interesting
       | observation, and it is fascinating to see it all laid out in one
       | concise piece like this.
        
       | rickyci wrote:
       | "What doesn't kill you makes you stronger" kudos to technology
       | for making us stronger in the face of COVID-19
        
       | blackoil wrote:
       | Andreessen's posts are strongly biased towards what is beneficial
       | for his position.
       | 
       | I have read a lot of his posts since 2008 and before. They are
       | intelligent and insightful, but in hindsight lot of them were not
       | best advice for founders/readers but best for the VC.
        
         | admissionsguy wrote:
         | Same goes for pg. And most other people, I suppose. It's hard
         | to forgo self-interest.
        
           | Fordec wrote:
           | One's measure of these VCs changes quite distinctly when you
           | change from viewing them through the prism of leaders of the
           | industry to viewing them as self-interested marketeers acting
           | as gatekeepers of a subset of wealth with the express purpose
           | of their working role as the endeavor of inflating their own
           | wealth.
           | 
           | They haven't gone hungry in quite some time, and it's really
           | been showing more and more as time goes on and their memories
           | of when they started out are fading.
        
         | klik99 wrote:
         | The same is true for any VC blog, it's marketing - to both
         | investors and founders. But you can be both biased and
         | insightful! I found this essay very inspirational, we truly are
         | living during exceptional times
         | 
         | If you don't take into account bias and agendas when you read
         | anything, you probably won't be a great founder.
        
         | wangii wrote:
         | indeed. I feel it's a lot more difficult to agree with the `SV
         | elites` (az, pg, etc.) recently, wondering if I'm too old or
         | they live in their own rdf.
        
           | Swizec wrote:
           | The world looks different from a throne.
           | 
           | There was a great comment on reddit once that calculated a
           | $50,000 car costs about the same to Jay-Z as a tank of gas
           | does to a median person. That's a huge difference in
           | perspective.
           | 
           | Someone like az, pg, etc probably sees higher daily
           | variations in their stock portfolio than my annual salary.
           | Imagine what life is like when $200k rounds down to "daily
           | noise"?
           | 
           | For me, after lots of saving, those fluctuations are in the
           | $300 range and even that changed my perspective and way of
           | thinking. Very different feel than when I was starting out
           | and having $300 felt like unimaginable wealth.
           | 
           | For comparison, a $500 unexpected expense would bankrupt 41%
           | of americans.
        
             | Infinitesimus wrote:
             | For anyone looking for the original comment about Jay-Z's
             | wealth: https://reddit.com/r/theydidthemath/comments/2r8xoj
             | /request_...
             | 
             | It probably costs even less now given how much his wealth
             | has grown
        
         | shoto_io wrote:
         | Of course. That's because they're a VC!
         | 
         | In fact the first large VC who realized that having an own
         | media outlet would benefit their startups immensely.
         | 
         | https://fortune.com/2021/01/20/tech-and-crypto-funder-andree...
        
       | d--b wrote:
       | This is Andreessen trolling to get traffic on their new
       | publication website... Obviously technology is not saving the
       | world. Sure we made a vaccine for a disease that was bad. But
       | technology is mostly responsible for propagating it in the first
       | place.
       | 
       | And climate change, you know.
       | 
       | EDIT: also on HN front page, fully autonomous killer drones are
       | being mass-produced.
        
         | throwkeep wrote:
         | Jon Stewart just made that point yesterday too:
         | 
         | "I think we owe a great debt of gratitude to science," Stewart
         | said. "Science has, in many ways, helped ease the suffering of
         | this pandemic, which was more than likely caused by science."
         | (1)
         | 
         | I disagree with regard to climate change though because that
         | externality has so far been a net positive for humanity and we
         | can solve the downside. Yes, technology enabled us to dig up
         | and burn buried carbon at scale sufficient to alter the
         | climate, but that's what lifted billions out of poverty and
         | eliminated starvation in much of the world. We'll solve the
         | negative externality with renewable energy, clean nuclear
         | energy, carbon capture, improved manufacturing efficiency and
         | materials, etc.
         | 
         | 1) https://news.yahoo.com/jon-stewart-endorses-lab-
         | leak-1305162...
        
           | jonny_eh wrote:
           | > which was more than likely caused by science
           | 
           | This is absolutely not true. There's zero evidence of a lab
           | leak.
        
           | kordlessagain wrote:
           | _Easing_ starvation enabled more people to have offspring and
           | that fact likely cause a swing in population which increased
           | demand and use of fossil fuels.
           | 
           | The possible outcomes of a a runaway population living on a
           | planet with a runaway climate are likely harder to predict
           | than a simpler and smaller system.
           | 
           | I certainly do hope we can solve our problems with
           | technology, but it will take concerted effort and unified
           | attention to do so.
        
         | xwowsersx wrote:
         | hmm, I'm not sure I agree with all points made in this post,
         | but surely two things can be true at once? In other words, yes
         | technology introduces problems (possibly the pandemic, as you
         | stated), but might it not also provide the remedy?
        
           | osekkat wrote:
           | >> yes technology introduces problems (possibly the pandemic,
           | as you stated), but might it not also provide the remedy?
           | 
           | Sure, but even with the "remedy" we still had 600k deaths in
           | the US and 3.8M globally. Not to mention the other problems
           | caused by technology that are don't have a remedy yet, aka
           | Climate crisis. I do agree with the comment above that we
           | can't technology our way out of the climate crisis.
        
           | sbarre wrote:
           | If you want to get super pedantic about it.. "Technology"
           | doesn't do anything.
           | 
           | Humans do stuff, using technology. Some of it good, some of
           | it is bad.
           | 
           | So it's really up to us, humans, to save the world. Or
           | destroy it.
        
         | megabless123 wrote:
         | Exactly, humanity will not be able to "technology" itself out
         | of the climate crisis. There's no better carbon removal
         | technology than our most efficient trees.
        
           | scatters wrote:
           | Trees use the C3 pathway. There are much faster-growing plant
           | species (for example bamboo, switchgrass) that could be
           | incorporated into a BECCS process.
        
           | cma wrote:
           | Even were that true we'd be better off with fusion-powered
           | stacked greenhouses of them.
        
           | CityOfThrowaway wrote:
           | This statement denies reason.
           | 
           | There are plenty of ways in which we can technology our way
           | out, even if we accept your premises (which, to be clear, I
           | don't but I'm willing to play ball).
           | 
           | Indeed, our _only_ option - save for some type of genocidal
           | movement - is to technology ourselves out of the climate
           | crisis.
           | 
           | 1. Engineer trees that store more carbon in denser and long
           | lasting root systems
           | 
           | 2. Create drone systems to plant and maintain tons more trees
           | 
           | 3. Improve energy capture technology to reduce our net new
           | greenhouse gases
           | 
           | 4. Create more efficient motors for the same reason as above
           | 
           | 5. Create new recycling technologies so we can reuse more of
           | the stuff we already have without mining more
           | 
           | 6. Speaking of raw material acquisition, we can mine
           | asteroids instead of our own planet
           | 
           | 7. Transition more activities online to reduce the need for
           | physical travel for more things
           | 
           | 8. Hell, move more business to the internet to reduce the
           | environmental footprint of office space
           | 
           | Literally this list can go on and on. Technology is the only
           | thing that fundamentally improves the trajectory of human
           | society.
        
             | swader999 wrote:
             | It would be very simple, fast, effective and not costly to
             | use airliners with sulfur added to their fuel to increase
             | earth's albedo. Problem solved. Of course we don't want to
             | do this but it is an option.
        
         | factsaresacred wrote:
         | A technology creates externalities. Another technology
         | neutralizes those externalities.
         | 
         | Given that we're unlikely (or unwilling) to put technological
         | genies back in the bottle, what else can we hope for?
        
           | mdorazio wrote:
           | More responsible development & deployment of technology to
           | avoid externalities in the first place?
        
       | tigerBL00D wrote:
       | In reality humans have a complicated relationship with
       | technology. As much as it promises to save the world, technology
       | is also what is increasingly over the last couple centuries
       | threatening to destroy the world and our species. So technology
       | may be saving the world, but largely from itself.
        
         | WalterBright wrote:
         | Do you want a nasty, brutish, and short life living in cave
         | instead? Because everything better than that came from
         | technology.
         | 
         | And even stone age man had sufficient technology to extinctify
         | other species.
        
           | handrous wrote:
           | You've at least twice on this story borrowed from Hobbes to
           | dismiss posts expressing what amounts to, "maybe our
           | relationship with technology is a bit complex, and a mixed
           | bag, and worth some examination and consideration", as if you
           | were responding to posts advocating full-on anarcho-
           | primitivism. Why?
        
       | streamofdigits wrote:
       | a man's got to do what a man's got to do. talk up his book.
       | cheerlead the workforce towards the next big thing etc.
       | 
       | the fact is an idiotic strand of rna has defeated us all. our
       | collective intelligence crumbled. toilet papers and flour
       | disappeared from shelves and that was just the start.
       | 
       | the billions of "supercomputers in our pockets": defanged,
       | untrusted, unusable as a tool in the fight against the most
       | simplistic of spreading algorithms
       | 
       | the billions of "platform" users: amplifiers of deep and
       | justified distrust, preventing even the miracle of quick vaccines
       | (which was by no means a given) to reach the masses
       | 
       | to be sure the systemic failure we witnessed is by far not just a
       | "tech" or even V/C failure. you can try put lipstick on a pig.
       | but "tech" was measured and came up short.
       | 
       | for any thinking techie out there (and there are many) a time to
       | reflect, then act
        
       | [deleted]
        
       | notdarkyet wrote:
       | "Moderna, a product of the American venture capital system,
       | created the first mRNA COVID vaccine within two days of receiving
       | the genetic code for COVID by email."
       | 
       | I love how the lab leak theory is now mainstream but everytime I
       | brought that up along with where the sequencing came from I
       | looked like a crackpot.
       | 
       | That email and sequence came directly from China.
       | 
       | Look at the Jan 11 note here: https://www.modernatx.com/modernas-
       | work-potential-vaccine-ag...
        
         | notdarkyet wrote:
         | Please explain why anything said above is not factual rather
         | than downvote?
        
           | qq4 wrote:
           | I believe you're being down voted because you haven't said
           | anything of substance. You mentioned an anecdote and how the
           | sequence reached Moderna. If you're implying something, maybe
           | say that instead of baiting people to guess your position.
        
       | aborsy wrote:
       | Not yet.
       | 
       | Much of the world doesn't yet have access to vaccine.
       | 
       | Let's remind ourselves that, these technologies are products of
       | decades of scientific effort funded by public. Many of these
       | projects never pan out (public pays for risk). VC and private
       | sector join only when technology is sufficiently mature, and will
       | pocket the lion share of the profit. Even within the private
       | sector, gains and risks of technology are not widely shared. This
       | is how it works, but let's get the credit assignment right.
       | 
       | Of course, technology also creates problems that are often passed
       | to public (socialized risk, private profits), until the next
       | iteration of the above process. Environmental damage is a case in
       | point.
       | 
       | So, yes, science and technology are wonderful, but let's share
       | the productivity gains widely, and let us all contribute to the
       | effort (directly, and through fair taxation and policies).
        
       | carapace wrote:
       | (With apologies to those that have heard it before) Bucky Fuller
       | (an engineer) calculated that we would have by sometime in the
       | 1970's all the technology necessary to create a kind of secular
       | utopia if we applied our knowledge to solving our problems
       | _efficiently_.
       | 
       | We could each work for two years and then retire having paid for
       | the rest of our lives during that two-year career.
       | 
       | This happened more or less right on schedule (the technological
       | advances, not the social/economic shift.)
       | 
       | Ergo, our problems now are not physical, they are
       | mental/emotional. The only thing holding us back is ourselves and
       | our (regressive or at least complacent) attitudes and beliefs.
       | 
       | - - - -
       | 
       | As an aside, "But yet, one gets the sense that Pandora's box has
       | been opened." That's not the right metaphor. The box Pandora
       | opened was filled with evil demons.
        
         | WalterBright wrote:
         | There are a _lot_ more people alive today than in the 1970s.
        
           | carapace wrote:
           | True. So we work for _three_ years, eh?
           | 
           | More seriously, you're correct that population pressure is
           | one of the main problems that could derail a techno-utopian
           | scenario. Fortunately, population seems to be leveling off.
           | 
           | I like to joke that the Amish are the "meek" who will
           | "inherit the earth", as they are fantastic farmers and still
           | have large families. But there's an element of truth to the
           | joke: if most folks stop increasing their own population, but
           | a few (like the Amish) don't, then in the fullness of time
           | they would eventually, uh, overrun the rest of us regardless
           | of any particular technological change.
        
         | handrous wrote:
         | Aside from the usual hedonic treadmill explanation, a lot of
         | our problems with ever-inflating costs are due to competition
         | for limited goods-- _especially_ those conferring advantage to
         | our kids. Houses in good school districts, private school
         | slots, various expensive activities that make getting into top-
         | tier colleges more likely, et c.
         | 
         | Two-income households? Now you're richer? LOL no, just more
         | money lost to zero-sum competition. Making retirement
         | contributions voluntary? Oh great, now my competitors who
         | choose not to save well can out-compete me for advantage for
         | their children _now_ , thanks a bunch. And so on.
        
           | carapace wrote:
           | FWIW Bucky meant that we could eliminate poverty and
           | starvation, not that we could supply unbounded luxuries.
           | 
           | The rise of non-fungible tokens shows that folks will find
           | ways to compete for limited resources, even if they have to
           | dream them up.
        
           | 3pt14159 wrote:
           | Arms races, the growing search space for attack asymmetries,
           | and the ever increasing mobility of capital paired with the
           | inherent centralization of returns due to computing.
           | 
           | Housing price inflation and advantages to children are
           | examples of figurative arms races. And you're right, it's
           | destroying our societies.
           | 
           | Cyberwarfare and military buildups are actual arms races.
           | Defence is getting more and more expensive. Globally,
           | cybersecurity spending is going north of $1T, and I doubt it
           | will ever decrease.
           | 
           | What we have is a coordination or alignment problem. If we
           | could get values aligned enough to coordinate more
           | effectively we wouldn't have such an insane world.
           | 
           | And as an aside, I highly doubt we'll be able to solve the
           | alignment problem with AI. Either the AGI is going to want to
           | coordinate due to its own character, or it won't, and short
           | of putting it in some unobservable virtual machine and
           | testing it to, say, see if it would give up its life for its
           | friend; I don't know what else you could do to really know
           | how deeply embedded its values are.
        
         | bob33212 wrote:
         | The ultimate question for humanity is what happens when we can
         | fix this. It will first start with extreme mental issues (
         | addiction, the suicidal, the pedophiles). But eventually it
         | gets to "Should children born with a desire to be the best at
         | any cost be 'fixed' to remove that desire?" Are we still human
         | when we remove the tribal and lizard brain desires that
         | dominate human activity today?
        
       | mrfusion wrote:
       | He seems to ignore Florida, Texas, etc who did just fine before
       | the "technology" was ready.
       | 
       | Edit sorry to offend but his false dichotomy of five years of
       | lockdown without a vaccine just rubs me the wrong way.
        
       | the_gipsy wrote:
       | "Knowledge work simply kept going on" - or maybe it simply is
       | irrelevant? We're just shuffling papers, what really matters is
       | on what car we spend our money on, or what chinese crap we buy
       | off amazon.
        
       | larsiusprime wrote:
       | I love me some technology, don't get me wrong.
       | 
       | But if the lab-leak hypothesis turns out to be correct than
       | technology is undoubtedly the very thing that put the world in
       | peril in the first place, as far as COVID-19 is concerned, before
       | you even consider increased air travel and globalization
       | encouraging/increasing the instant spread of modern pathogens.
        
         | hairytrog wrote:
         | Maybe this will play out like nuclear technologies. Incredible
         | potential for good also means incredible potential for bad. For
         | nuclear, the good was roughly limitless energy at very low
         | environmental cost and low human labor. The bad was nuclear
         | weapons material and nuclear accidents. After the accidents,
         | the nuclear industry in advanced countries basically goes into
         | sleep mode, maintaining existing assets, but unable to expand
         | or grow. Perhaps the lab-leak will have the same result for
         | biomed sciences. Accident leads to millions or tens of millions
         | of deaths and industry must go into stasis. You might say the
         | gain-of-function research is sufficiently differentiated from
         | normal biomedical research that they don't get grouped
         | together. But I doubt it. You can probably do gain-of-function
         | in any old bio lab. The only thing stopping it is the good
         | intentions of the users.
         | 
         | The effort to cause massive societal disruption and destruction
         | is so much easier for bio based weapons than for nuclear. In
         | nuclear, you need so many things to line up if you're building
         | a weapon from obtaining the requisite materials, enrichment,
         | weapon design and electronics, delivery vehicles; and so many
         | things to go wrong if you are going to have a consequential
         | nuclear accident. In contrast, bio weapons can be developed in
         | a dinky lab, deployed, and then self-propagate worldwide.
        
         | onion2k wrote:
         | _if the lab-leak hypothesis turns out to be correct than
         | technology is undoubtedly the very thing that put the world in
         | peril in the first place_
         | 
         | Whatever lessons we might learn if it were to turn out that
         | COVID is a human-made experiment are lessons we should be
         | taking heed of even if it isn't.
        
           | larsiusprime wrote:
           | Absolutely! Not to mention that we _already_ have very strong
           | evidence that dangerous pathogens have escaped from _other_
           | labs in the past.
        
         | arrosenberg wrote:
         | Eh, not really more so than usual. We've probably had fewer the
         | last 100 years due to better tech and science. Pandemics have
         | always been a civilizational challenge, often caused by
         | technology, greed and hubris. Making it in a lab (unlikely, but
         | theoretically possible) and transporting it by air instead of
         | doing both in the hull of a galley is just a new twist that
         | enabled greater scale.
        
         | ignoramous wrote:
         | Ironically, it is technology that gets the world out of these
         | perils, too. I get your point though, nature could only fuel so
         | much growth before it irreversibly changes course and stops
         | sustaining life as we know it.
        
       | mempko wrote:
       | >Moderna, a product of the American venture capital system
       | 
       | Moderna got a government grant to do the mRNA work didn't they?
       | Seems a product of public investment.
       | 
       | https://www.pbs.org/newshour/health/years-of-research-laid-g...
       | 
       | https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/factcheck/2020/11/24/fac...
       | 
       | https://investors.modernatx.com/news-releases/news-release-d...
        
         | simonsarris wrote:
         | No, they got an enormous amount of VC money for years. They
         | reached a $1 billion valuation in just two years after founding
         | (2012), faster than Uber/Dropbox/Lyft etc did.
        
           | mempko wrote:
           | Ok, but ...
           | 
           | https://seekingalpha.com/news/3609955-moderna-failed-to-
           | disc...
           | 
           | And Derrick Rossi's research was publicly funded which led to
           | creation of Moderna...
           | 
           | https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Derrick_Rossi
           | 
           | > Rossi based his developments on the results of Katalin
           | Kariko and Drew Weissman on mRNA. He succeeded in finding
           | investors for his plans to transfer these findings into new
           | medications and vaccinations by founding Moderna
           | 
           | This is a tale as old as time. Government funds labs which
           | invent and discover. VCs then fund companies to exploit and
           | make money off publicly discovered work.
        
             | jaypeg25 wrote:
             | You're taking a pretty pessimistic view of the funding and
             | R&D process. A good idea with initial funding by the
             | government is useless if the VC funding doesn't bring the
             | idea to the finish line. The government can't afford to
             | (and shouldn't) fund every good idea to their finish line.
        
               | mempko wrote:
               | It's not pessimistic, just a fact of the R&D process.
               | Public takes the risk, reward is privatized. Otherwise
               | the VC model wouldn't work since most research doesn't
               | fall within the horizon of a VC fund's lifetime.
        
             | mavhc wrote:
             | That's how it's set up to work, government does the early
             | work because it's not profitable for a company, we all pay
             | into that work so we have the new technology sooner.
             | 
             | See: the internet, railways, computers, everything.
        
             | andrewmutz wrote:
             | In the real world, both government grants and VC funding
             | create great things.
             | 
             | If your political views make you want to diminish the
             | importance of either, then perhaps it's time to update
             | those views.
        
               | mempko wrote:
               | I'm trying to create a more balanced view. Andreessen
               | made a claim that is completely false.
               | 
               | > Moderna, a product of the American venture capital
               | system -- Andreessen
               | 
               | Where is he talking about the importance of government
               | grants?
        
             | drzaiusapelord wrote:
             | Yep this. The actual nose to the grindstone basic research
             | work is often publicly funded but the VC fundraising
             | bragging is often things like jets and swanky offices. The
             | un-sexy work of doing basic research is not something
             | capitalism handles well at all and we expect the government
             | to subsidize it so the VCs can walk in, claim the work of
             | their own, claim it was done via capitalism and the VC
             | process, and then sell themselves as our saviors by
             | creating media outlets that serve them. This is very
             | dystopian and anti-government.
        
       | kordlessagain wrote:
       | Technology accelerates change at an accelerated rate. While this
       | could be beneficial to society, the main driver of innovation or
       | creation of technology remains capitalism.
       | 
       | Guy Kawasaki has made some great points about how a business,
       | founded in capitalism, should find purpose to make the world a
       | better place. In many cases those changes brought on by a given
       | technology isn't obvious until the technology has been adopted in
       | a widespread way.
       | 
       | Facebook may "help" people connect and discuss important matters,
       | but it also created a conduit (deluge) of information which
       | hijacks people's attention away from things that may serve them
       | better in the long run. It's when technology like Facebook,
       | Twitter and other social media platforms _push_ data to us that
       | we give way, emotionally, to the influence.
       | 
       | When emotions get involved, attention is diverted.
        
       | julbaxter wrote:
       | "Technology has become the idol of our society, but technological
       | progress is--more often than not--aimed at solving problems
       | caused by earlier technical inventions."
       | 
       | "Interesting possibilities arise when you combine old technology
       | with new knowledge and new materials, or when you apply old
       | concepts and traditional knowledge to modern technology."
       | 
       | Quotes from https://www.lowtechmagazine.com
        
         | mavhc wrote:
         | Isn't that the case for anything though? New problems only
         | occur because of a previous change, and change usually only
         | happens due to technology
        
         | arvinsim wrote:
         | You could say tech fosters a dependency on itself by people to
         | sustain itself.
        
         | WalterBright wrote:
         | I opt for technology rather than leading a nasty, brutish and
         | short life.
        
           | _Microft wrote:
           | I do not read something like that out of that quote.
           | 
           | Vaccines, emergency medicine, construction or farming
           | equipment, all these things that make life easier, healthier
           | and longer are not what GPs comment was about.
           | 
           | It talked about technology that was needed to fix problems
           | created by earlier technology (think: someone has to write an
           | ad-blocker because someone else optimized distributing
           | advertisements).
        
             | WalterBright wrote:
             | Um, these technologies enable a larger human population,
             | which then causes problems. Tractors enable ever larger
             | tracts of the best land to be devoted to farming, to enable
             | a larger population, to need more land to cultivate, etc.
        
           | freewilly1040 wrote:
           | This presupposes two questionable assumptions: that you have
           | any choice in the matter, and that technology itself isn't
           | the thing that is making your life nasty, brutish, and short.
        
             | thedogeye wrote:
             | Before the industrial revolution 25% of deaths were
             | homicide.
        
       | h2odragon wrote:
       | "we thought the world was gonna end, it didn't because we saved
       | us!" ... or, possibly, the world wasn't going to end in the first
       | place, and y'all selling fear caused much of the harm you're so
       | proud to have mitigated now...
        
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