[HN Gopher] A pilot program to include spirituality in mental he...
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A pilot program to include spirituality in mental health care
Author : xriddle
Score : 39 points
Date : 2021-06-15 19:00 UTC (4 hours ago)
(HTM) web link (www.scientificamerican.com)
(TXT) w3m dump (www.scientificamerican.com)
| throwaythiesit wrote:
| This is wacky.
|
| It's like you are about to have surgery and the surgeon insists
| on performing an animal sacrifice to ensure the success of the
| surgery.
|
| I would not see such a surgeon and I will not see a psychologist
| who wants to involve imperceptible deities in my treatment.
|
| Whatever his beliefs are he should not involve his patients in
| it.
| hprotagonist wrote:
| from "the other side", this has been known for rather a while:
| seminarians usually have a few obligatory courses in psychology
| and counseling best practices lumped in under "pastoral care".
| There's usually a hospital chaplaincy rotation that can give you
| exposure to psychiatric care as well (or other areas, depending
| on what you're interested in).
|
| It's no real surprise that, for example, confession and talk
| therapy are extremely close cousins. People seem to fundamentally
| _need_ to put words to ideas and fears and sadness and stress and
| angst, and in putting words around those things we can hope to
| control our reactions to them better.
|
| Doing this with a guide who is there to tell you that no matter
| what, _you matter_ , and probably give you some rituals to do
| that'll settle your mind a bit, has proven to be durably useful
| for approximately ever. Whether you call that person "your
| therapist" or "your priest" or "your imam" or "this monk i talk
| to sometimes" seems more or less secondary.
| thehackerjew wrote:
| In judaism, we have in our morning/afternoon prayers
| (shacharit/mincha) a section that roughly translate as
| confessions (tachanun). In this section, there is a subsection
| called vidui, in which we confess our mistakes, to Gd (blessed
| be), to the empty room and mostly to ourselves.
|
| When I started doing this part, it was quite weird to say my
| mistakes both out loud or quietly, but as time kept going, I
| found that it is such a good form of dealing with our errors.
| When we try to say it in form of phrases, we have to first
| understand it minimally, then, we can say it and see that it is
| not as bad as we thought (or it is even worse...), we feel
| shame, we try to justify it, we try to explain it, but in the
| end the one listening is just the person, the walls and Gd the
| almighty.
|
| I've done years of therapy, but never before I have felt more
| listened to. There is something special, a special kind of
| circuit, when we say things that we don't want to say to
| ourselves. We break it, externalize, hear it, internalize and
| every day and every day. It is funny how the problems dissolve,
| how some become actions, how some persist.
|
| Of course, I still talk to my parents, my SO, my friends, my
| rabbi and even my therapist from time to time. But I hope that
| someone on this forum can use this comment to try and succeed
| in talking to yourself.
| brightball wrote:
| Praying out loud, by yourself, is very therapeutic.
| Especially when there's something you're really struggling
| with there's an incredible feeling of release that comes with
| it.
|
| When those prayers get answered, usually not in the way that
| you'd expect, you learn to do it more often.
|
| Anecdotal, I know, but I've noticed a pattern that the most
| likely prayers to be answered are the ones where I'm praying
| for something that God would want for me; help forgiving
| someone when I can't let it go, breaking a bad habit, being a
| better husband or father, connecting with someone who needs
| help and guidance.
| Jotra7 wrote:
| Confirmation bias perhaps?
| kar5pt wrote:
| This is likely because the modern psychiatric industry evolved
| partly out of religious institutions. I wouldn't look at it and
| assume it's a sign of some universal human need.
| grawprog wrote:
| A few years ago now I was reading a lot about Buddhism and its
| tenets about mindfulness and other ways of dealing with the
| things life throws at you or when you get into a negative state
| of mind.
|
| A couple years after that I had a friend that was going through
| Cognitive Behavioural Therapy with a psychiatrist, a really good
| one from what I could tell I might add, my friend let me read
| through the CBT book. Turns out, it's nearly identical to what
| the ideas Buddhism tries to teach, with all the religious aspect
| stripped away.
|
| It's essentially the same concept though. Being mindful of
| patterns of behaviour or thoughts that lead to negative actions
| or mind states and the tools you can use to conciously avoid and
| correct them.
|
| It really seemed to help my friend and honestly, it seems like
| something that would be good for everybody to learn.
| nescioquid wrote:
| The rather similar philosophical schools (stoicism,
| epicurianism, cynicism) arising in Greece at a time not
| terribly long after the death of Siddhartha Guatama always made
| me wonder if there was a connection. Ex oriente lux, ex
| occidente lex (from the east light, from the west law).
|
| I've read that the roots of CBT were founded on stoic
| philosophy, so perhaps there is a connection.
| grawprog wrote:
| I have to admit I don't know much about the history of stoic
| philosophy. I never realized such a thing existed. I also was
| never sure about exactly what CBT was based on or anything
| about the history of it.
|
| Thank you, I'll have to do some reading it seems. The way
| different philosophies, myths and religions travelled around
| the world and evolved over time has always fascinated me. So
| much still is based on things from hundreds or even thousands
| of years ago.
| webnrrd2k wrote:
| I haven't gotten into the details, but there was a connection
| via Alexander the Great.
|
| https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greco-Buddhism
|
| Edit: less on topic, but I've always thought that Jehosephat
| was an interesting confection, too:
| https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barlaam_and_Josaphat
| Retric wrote:
| Stoicism actually has roots in Cynicism. It's unclear where
| individual ideas come from, but it's actually possible
| Buddhism has some roots in western philosophy.
|
| _As reasoning creatures, people can gain happiness by
| rigorous training and by living in a way which is natural for
| themselves, rejecting all conventional desires for wealth,
| power, and fame. Instead, they were to lead a simple life
| free from all possessions._
|
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cynicism_(philosophy)
| bumby wrote:
| > _it's actually possible Buddhism has some roots in
| western philosophy._
|
| I think the OP was implying it was the other way around.
| I.e., Cynicism (and thus Stoicism) draw from Buddhism. It
| seems like Siddhartha Gautama predates Antisthenes by
| nearly 150 years. (Granted, that doesn't mean that ideas
| between them weren't shared later, it just indicates which
| was started first)
| Retric wrote:
| I agree that's what OP was saying, my point is it's not
| the only way things could have happened.
|
| First the dates aren't that clear. Gautama Buddha was
| born between 563 BCE or 480 BCE. Antisthenes was born in
| 446 BC. So he's between 38 and 117 years more recent,
| though they both lived to ~80, so it's possible they
| where alive at the same time.
|
| Anyway, it's obvious similar ideas in different places
| where very contemporary to each other. What's unclear is
| what these philosophers where culturally exposed to.
| Basically, we can't trace which ideas they came up with
| and which ones they copied unless we find an older
| source, as such it's impossible to say the origins of
| such things.
| nemo wrote:
| There definitely was interchange between various Greeks
| and Buddhists since Mahayana Buddhism's early development
| was in much contact with the Greeks from Hellenistic
| kingdoms in Bactria and India and some of those Greeks
| converted to Buddhism:
|
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greco-Buddhist_monasticism
|
| Gandharan Buddhist art is steeped in Greek stylization
| and the first images of the Buddha followed Greek
| stylizations - early Buddhists didn't depict the Buddha
| at all, just symbols like empty footprints, it wasn't
| until Greek contact that this began.
|
| Thomas McEvilley's _The Shape of Ancient Thought:
| Comparative Studies in Greek and Indian Philosophies_ has
| an interesting discussion of similarities between earlier
| Stoic texts by Sextus Empiricus and some works of
| Nagarjuna (one of the most important Mayahana
| philosophers) that use the same arguments, metaphors, and
| structuring. He goes over a number of other ancient
| sources, Greek and Indian, describing various sorts of
| cultural contact and interchange.
|
| Pre-Hellenistic contact between the Greeks and India
| occurred but we can only speculate about it since there's
| no reliable evidence. After Alexander there was a lot of
| interchange and it had a big impact on Indian art,
| architecture, theater, and culture (as well as bringing
| significant influence of Indian stylization, philosophy,
| etc. on Greek Hellenistic kingdoms in Bactria and India).
| ggggtez wrote:
| Just because people _think_ prayer will help them doesn 't mean
| it actually will. Psychologists have a duty not to lie to their
| patients. Having a psychologist offer a lie that may make people
| feel better in the short term does nothing to actually fix their
| long term problems. Psychological or otherwise.
|
| And further more, many psychologists _do this already_. There are
| many psychologists that specialize in patients of a particular
| religion. The LDS church comes to mind. They have no better
| success record than any other treatment.
|
| "Scientific" American, my ass.
| dang wrote:
| Please do not take HN threads into religious flamewar. That's a
| circle of hell we badly need to avoid here, and which also is
| particularly easy to avoid.
|
| https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
| ggggtez wrote:
| I disagree, this comment is on topic. The author presents an
| opinion that conflicts with the reality of the world.
| Psychologists are not merely trying to make people feel
| better with temporary solutions, but to help that person
| solve what is actually bothering them.
|
| Furthermore, _psychologists already do this_. They already
| recommend taking to family, friends, pastors, etc.
| dang wrote:
| The issue isn't the topic, it's comment quality.
| btheshoe wrote:
| Camus is rolling over in his grave
| dang wrote:
| If you wouldn't mind reviewing
| https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html and taking the
| intended spirit of the site more to heart, we'd be grateful.
| Note this one: " _Please don 't post shallow dismissals,
| especially of other people's work. A good critical comment
| teaches us something._"
|
| Your thoughtful comments are welcome.
|
| p.s. Camus was more nuanced than that.
| Jotra7 wrote:
| A shallow assertion deserves a shallow dismissal.
| ganzuul wrote:
| Should not confuse spirituality with religion. They rarely meet.
| TheTester wrote:
| That is a cynical way to actually try to talk about something
| you seem to have no idea about, yeha religion has its quirks
| but it is strongly linked to spirituality lets not lie to
| ourselves
| hellbannedguy wrote:
| If there is anything I would like to see changed in Psychiatry is
| mandatory visits, especially when the paitient, and the doctor
| find the right drug, and both admit talk therapy is not helping.
|
| In the USA, this is how the dealeo usually works:
|
| 1. If you don't have good insurance, or not wealthy, you don't
| have Talk Theraphy sessions with the Psychiatrist.
|
| 2. You usually have to find a MFCC, and yak away until the
| Psychologist gives you a recommendation to a Psychiatrist. (They
| all that their favorites,)
|
| 3. You finally see the Psychiatrist. He quickly determines if you
| need meds. The honest ones will tell you about current studies,
| like long term Schizophrenia patients seem to due better long
| term without medications. (This is a tough call.), or the
| evidence of efficacy of depression drugs is murky at best. (This
| will never come out of most doctors mouths. Placebo is their
| bread and butter.)
|
| 4. Ok you find a medication that works.
|
| 5. Many medications that actually work are habit forming. This is
| a problem.
|
| 6. A medication that works costs money, and it's not just the
| price of the drug.
|
| 7. It's those mandatory pricey office visits.
|
| 8. A psychiatrist can drag you in every week, or day, in order to
| ok those scripts. (most keep them at 6 weeks, or much longer if
| the patient does not want to come in.)
|
| 9. It get's irritating, and expensive.
|
| 10. I would like to see a federal law stating you only need to
| see a doctor once a year if you are on a drug long term. You
| obviously can't be a danger to society.
|
| In fact, I would like to limit mandatory office visits for most
| medicines. Say you have been on a high blood pressure drug for
| years, you should be able to get refills in most cases without
| seeing a doctor.
|
| 11. You will never see a hard cap on mandatory office visits.
| That is how the Psychiatrists/MD's affords that very comfortable
| lifestyle.
|
| Plus---the AMA knows the rap, and protects their members money.
| (Yes--it's more nuanced than I am writing write now, but the
| mandatory office visits for well functioning patients is
| expensive. And what is well functioning? You got me. By the time
| you end up in the Psychiatry office, and on meds, you life is
| never quite the same, and most doctors know that.
|
| The one's that exploit their patients for money should be looked
| at, or delicenced.
| tosser-a99f993 wrote:
| Lots of truth here. Below certain economic lines, mental health
| is often a pipeline to lifetime dependency on big pharma. It's
| really heartbreaking trying to explain to someone recovering
| from addiction that they've traded street drugs for new, state-
| approved meds.
| jfengel wrote:
| I'm all for applying whatever tool works. If somebody is
| suffering, and religion/spirituality can help them without too
| many side effects, let's apply it.
|
| However... it's not like people haven't been self-treating with
| religion since time immemorial. Certainly longer than psychiatry.
| And it's usually cheaper than a therapist. So people tend to try
| that first, and go for a medical route only after religion has
| failed them.
|
| The article cites a study with some positive results, but
| psychiatry is an area rife with unreproducible studies. This
| seems to warrant more study, but it wouldn't surprise me if there
| are a lot of contradictory results.
|
| I'd really like to see it work. It does seem reasonable that some
| patients find spirituality to be a tool for coping, and
| psychiatry can benefit from that. At the least it sounds as if it
| shouldn't be, "Well, religion failed you, now let's chuck it and
| try something different."
| corobo wrote:
| I think the actual results here are "have a solid support
| network" rather than spirituality.
|
| If you can get that in spirituality, awesome, but I don't think
| spirituality itself is the actual fix - it's the people you
| share your beliefs with that help. Community and that, it's a
| thing humans do (and haven't been able to do in a while)
| groby_b wrote:
| Note that "organized religion" and "spirituality" are often
| very different. Helping people find out that they can be
| spiritual without having to buy into a prescribed belief system
| is an extremely helpful step that many _don 't_ undertake on
| their own.
|
| The fact that the author ignores that entirely makes me fairly
| convinced that he's advocating to proselytize, not to introduce
| people to spirituality. (Part of me wants to book a session
| with them and talk to them about wood fairies, just to see what
| happens :)
| aarpmcgee wrote:
| I didn't have a feel for what the word 'spirituality' meant
| until I left organized religion and began the working-it-out
| for myself. Its relatable and understandable when I see how
| often people mistake the two, since we're nearly all raised
| into confusion by confused people.
| pstuart wrote:
| I think organized religion is more about organized religion
| rather than spirituality.
| squarefoot wrote:
| Organized religion is what happens when few greedy people
| realize they can make money out of many spiritual people.
| ggggtez wrote:
| It's amazing the cognitive biases that are present in every
| example.
|
| A person who writes about how he doesn't believe in atheism,
| stating his "secular" client believes in god and such... In a
| country that is 80%+ Christian... Even if he had an atheist
| client, they would leave his practice as soon as he continued
| to insist that they pray and talk to priests as a solution to
| their problems... It's a self fulfilling prophecy
| mensetmanusman wrote:
| Many lateral studies over generations show that religion helps
| one generate a mental model of perceived reality that is more
| robust against hardship. It helps explain why religion survives
| since forever.
| xgulfie wrote:
| Funny, every therapist I've ever seen (4/4, none were
| Psychiatrists) has started discussions with me on spirituality.
| some even talked about christianity and/or god on their webpages
| etc.
|
| As a very non-spiritual person it didn't do anything for me
| vincent-toups wrote:
| I'd rather experience more stress than believe dumb shit. Editing
| lest I seem glib: I have tried spirituality. The amount of work I
| feel I must do to maintain anything but a relaxed materialist
| worldview is not worth the promise that believing in some silly
| cosmology will reduce my anxiety about death or whatever.
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