[HN Gopher] The Schindler of Japan, Chihune Sugihara
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The Schindler of Japan, Chihune Sugihara
Author : se4u
Score : 224 points
Date : 2021-06-13 02:10 UTC (20 hours ago)
(HTM) web link (www.tokyoweekender.com)
(TXT) w3m dump (www.tokyoweekender.com)
| duxup wrote:
| I'm surprised to read that despite persecution, Russia allowed
| them to transit through their country.
| ssijak wrote:
| Russia did not have a plan to exterminate them, you are
| thinking from a Nazi POV. They were probably just interested in
| not having them in Russia because of the religion.
| vmception wrote:
| The Nazi solutions weren't all extermination either, until
| the final solution. There were several solutions/plans that
| were thwarted due to poor calculation.
|
| The Madagascar Plan makes so much more since for longevity
| than the Jewish Nationalist plan on the Mediterranean.
| yawaworht1978 wrote:
| Sorry, but this is a very naive point of view. The Nazi
| solution was to kill as many of everything as fast they
| can, the t4 programme and hands on killings were already
| daily business. The only thing holding the Nazis back was a
| functional USSR, as soon they anticipated the fall of
| Moscow, the termination camps have been built in no time.
| They also maintained many concentration camps long before
| the decisive conference at Wannsee. The systematic killings
| started in June 41. The construction and initial glassings
| via gas vans started before the Wannsee conference, they
| couldn't wait long enough to get started. Hitler stated as
| early as 1922 to a journalist that his first and foremost
| task will be the annihilation of Jews. He simply had to
| keep a bit of international reputation and was not sure if
| the army and other lackeys would be ready to commit mass
| genocide on civilians. After the cowardly operation
| Barbarossa, there were no doubts any more.
|
| There are no ifs or whatever about this, the German
| population will forever be marked as the biggest suckers in
| mankind for allowing this man to power and have him and his
| rich buddies stay in power. There were heroic people who
| had seen the painting on the wall and died for the cause,
| then there were the complicit, active clogs in the machine
| and the most cowardly, the "neutral/passive" parts of the
| population who accepted the state of affairs and hoped it
| might either away without consequences for them. And then
| there's people like you, to this day believing the Jewish
| solution would have seriously been a peaceful relocation,
| which would have killed many as well.
|
| Ask yourself in which of the 3 aforementioned groups you
| would most likely be.
| vmception wrote:
| So was the Madagascar Plan really on the table or not.
| Please answer only that, is this complete misinformation
| because my internet filter bubble got distorted by some
| weird searches years ago? Or do the records genuinely
| exist and compete with our understanding of the outcome.
| hef19898 wrote:
| I upvoted you, simply because you state facts. Frankly,
| while we _know_ a majority either supported or at least
| accepted Nazi policy, condemning all Germans from back
| the day is a tad harsh. Simply, because people back then
| didn 't have much of a choice after 1933.
|
| And Nazi propaganda was quite effective. I have more of
| an issue with the fact, that denazification wasn't even
| half as thorough as it should have been. A combination of
| national denial / shame and Cold War realities had people
| like Fillbinger make distinguished careers after the war.
| Despite being a hard core Nazi judge he rose to prime
| minister of Baden-Wurttemberg. But I guess, that was the
| best possible outcome after all.
| sofixa wrote:
| > Sorry, but this is a very naive point of view. The Nazi
| solution was to kill as many of everything as fast they
| can, the t4 programme and hands on killings were already
| daily business. The only thing holding the Nazis back was
| a functional USSR, as soon they anticipated the fall of
| Moscow, the termination camps have been built in no time.
|
| Sorry, but that's a very naive and quite wrong point of
| view.
|
| The Wannsee conference, where it was actually decided to
| mass murder industrially the Jews was in January 1942,
| and happened then because they saw they won't have a
| quick victory against the USSR; otherwise it would have
| waited after that. Before the conference, there were
| small scale proofs of concept by local eager commanders,
| nothing more.
|
| As was already established in the article, the USSR
| didn't care about Jews, why would they be holding back
| the Nazis? Nothing was stopping them from industrially
| murdering all Jews deported to the General Government in
| 1941, yet they didn't. The policy then was murder through
| torture, overwork and hunger.
| metters wrote:
| Maybe because it was such a bureaucratic system.
| redis_mlc wrote:
| I believe early in WW2, Japan had a treaty with Russia.
|
| So Japan did not torpedo US Liberty ships headed to Russia, and
| various other surprising things. (Japan obeyed international
| treaties to the letter, but did not follow any human rights
| conventions.)
|
| Of course, at the end of WW2, Russia turned their vast army and
| artillery eastward, and annihiliated the Japanese army.
|
| Source: I study WW2.
| metters wrote:
| > and various other surprising things.
|
| This makes me curious. What other things?
| redis_mlc wrote:
| Although the Axis countries did not cooperate to the extent
| of the US and Britain, there was some effort:
|
| - Japan sent a military observer to Berlin. Unfortunately
| for Hitler, he made daily extensive notes, then sent them
| via a broken code
|
| - Japan received a Bf109 and a light German bomber, and
| evaluated them against the Zero and a Japanese bomber
|
| - Japan also received a couple of tanks and some nuclear
| technology, usually via submarine.
| skhr0680 wrote:
| The Soviets would have needed friends if the Allies accepted
| German's surrender then immediately took control of the
| German military to destroy the USSR, and Japan was in a
| natural position to be that friend.
|
| Stalin only agreed to break the non-aggression pact once it
| became clear that no invasion from the west was coming, which
| was fairly late in the war (Yalta).
| enriquto wrote:
| it is interesting to note that at no point during the war
| both sides fought simultaneously against the other side.
| E.g., the USSR was on Germany's side during the battle of
| Britain (supplying fuel for german bombers). The Japan non-
| aggression pact was kept until after the defeat of Germany.
| The many European countries that fought on both sides along
| the course of the war, etc.
| LatteLazy wrote:
| Actually the Soviets already defeated the Germans. 80% of
| German forces were on the Eastern front and Russia was
| cutting through them like a hot knife through butter before
| d-day even occurred. They took Berlin despite the German
| high command basically trying to give it to the Western
| allies. The turning point of WW2 was Stalingrad, not D-day.
| hef19898 wrote:
| One could also make the case for the Germans failure to
| take Moscow to be the turning point, followed by the US
| entry into the war. After that it was just a question of
| _when_ the Axis would be crushed by the Allies industrial
| capacity. Not _if_.
| protomyth wrote:
| The ships headed to Russia were Russian flagged. They were
| the reason US submarines had to be very careful in their
| target selection in certain waters. Thunder Below has a lot
| of commentary on the subject.
| miles wrote:
| > Of course, at the end of WW2, Russia turned their vast army
| and artillery eastward, and annihiliated the Japanese army.
|
| Of the ~1,092,400 Japanese soldiers facing Russia, only
| 22,300-23,600 were killed according to Japan (Russia places
| the figure at 83,737):
|
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soviet-Japanese_War#Summary
| LatteLazy wrote:
| Because Japan surrendered almost as soon as Russia declared
| war. They were more afraid of the red army than 2 nuclear
| bombings...
| miles wrote:
| > They were more afraid of the red army than 2 nuclear
| bombings...
|
| Not according to them[1]:
|
| "More than ever before, the historical record confirms
| what those soldiers knew in their gut: Hiroshima and
| Nagasaki, hideous as they were, shortened the war that
| Japan had begun and saved an immensity of lives. Far from
| considering itself essentially defeated, the Japanese
| military was preparing for an Allied assault with a
| massive buildup in the south. It was only the shock of
| the atomic blasts that enabled Japanese leaders who
| wanted to stop the fighting to successfully press for a
| surrender.
|
| "'We of the peace party were assisted by the atomic bomb
| in our endeavor to end the war,' Kido Koichi, one of
| Emperor Hirohito's closest aides, later recalled.
| Hisatsune Sakomizu, the chief Cabinet secretary, called
| the bomb 'a golden opportunity given by heaven for Japan
| to end the war.'"
|
| [1] http://archive.boston.com/news/globe/editorial_opinio
| n/oped/...
| [deleted]
| hef19898 wrote:
| I think we will never know what the reasoning behind the
| two bombs really was. I could imagine that after using
| large scale carpet and fire bombing against civilian
| targets, a nuclear bomb with a similar effect doesn't
| make much of a difference.
| himinlomax wrote:
| > but did not follow any human rights conventions
|
| If I'm not mistaken, they hadn't signed any.
| nobody0 wrote:
| The Schindler of Germany, John Rabe
|
| > John Rabe was an ordinary German businessman in China when the
| Japanese invaded Nanking in 1937. Nearly 70 years later, a
| memorial was dedicated to the "Good German" who saved thousands
| of Chinese lives.
|
| https://www.dw.com/en/memorial-dedicated-to-the-oskar-schind...
| throw765782 wrote:
| There's also a 'Chinese Schindler.'
|
| > Ho Feng Shan: The 'Chinese Schindler' who saved thousands of
| Jews
|
| https://edition.cnn.com/2015/07/19/asia/china-jews-schindler...
| durnygbur wrote:
| Jews were so lucky that German industrialists stood behind
| them, otherwise "the Nazis" would almost completely eradicate
| them.
| singlow wrote:
| I believe you have a kernel of good intent but very poor
| wording.
| durnygbur wrote:
| German industry was a meatgrinder of slave labour. I don't
| understand why so much attention is paid to the few neutral
| actors (read on Schindler, he was an asshole) and used to
| whitewash German population which was passive at best.
| emj wrote:
| Because one guy saving 100s if not thousands is more
| noteworthy than the thousands of people who saved ten
| each. The underground networks that smuggled people
| during the third reich is documented, but many of the
| active people were jews and did not want to talk about
| that time. I've seen dairies about the time showing up
| now, hidden away by traumatized grandparents who didn't
| want anything to do with Germany.
| DaedPsyker wrote:
| I really don't know how you can see Germany as
| whitewashing the Holocaust. It is pretty evident that
| they ensure every generation knows the horrors that were
| caused. Although I can understand why the modern
| generation might get annoyed at the sense they are
| supposed to take ownership of something they can't
| change.
| hef19898 wrote:
| Maybe Schindler was an ass, I don't know the guy
| personally. He did save a lot of lives, so. And I can
| tell you he is not used to whitewash Germany as a whole.
| It is a well established fact, that German population was
| either passive or supportive. That's the reason why
| people like Schindler stand out so much.
| KMag wrote:
| More importantly, IMHO, Schindler also made a wide-eyed
| conscious choice to put his life in danger to help
| strangers.
|
| Lots of heroes are assholes. Real life isn't a Disney
| movie or a war propaganda reel. I hope we're capable of
| appreciating their bravery (and at least statistical
| self-sacrifice) without blindly praising their every
| deed.
| himinlomax wrote:
| > Sugihara was then asked to resign by the foreign office. The
| official line was downsizing, though many, including his wife
| Yukiko, believe it was because of what happened in Lithuania.
|
| It's important to note that, unlike Germany, Japan has never
| really admitted or apologized for what they did. See this
| shocking video by historian Mark Felton about what you can find
| _today_ in a Japanese museum:
| https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ngzesh6eN14
|
| The Nazis were on a mission to annihilate the Jews, so in
| relative term they killed many, but in absolute terms the
| Japanese probably victimized a lot more people. It's just that
| there were a lot of Chinese people to victimize, so the magnitude
| of the crime is less apparent.
|
| Their cruelty was even worse in some ways, as it was officially
| sanctioned and encouraged by their institutions as such. The
| Nazis, while they did not hide their hate for the Jews, went to
| some lengths to hide what they were actually doing to them --
| which is probably how the German population could claim to not
| know what was going on. (To quote Speer: "I didn't know, I could
| have known, I should have known." He's been vilified but I
| haven't seen anything to paint him as a liar as far as this is
| concerned.)
|
| Put simply, the Germans are ashamed of that past, even the Nazis
| had shown some signs that they knew it was shameful, but the
| Japanese have never demonstrated any shame.
| 0dayz wrote:
| It is true that said government and institutions has never done
| so.
|
| However I think you're grossly building up Germans as ignorant
| goodmen.
|
| While painting the Japanese as complicit evil doers.
|
| The truth is the only reason Germans are ashamed of the past
| are due to 2 reasons:
|
| 1 the allies occupation of Germany spent lots of resources into
| exposing the crimes of the nazis.
|
| And even then the Germans were proud of the nazis up until the
| 1980s.
|
| And 2 every institution was torn down more or less after the
| nazis and rebuild from scratch with some having oversight built
| into it.
|
| This did not happen in the occupation of japan.
|
| And you can see the same "complicity" with the 3rd holocaust
| that was done in Croatia/ Bosnia against predominantly Serbs.
|
| Hell even Spain has the issue of the public still being proud
| of the fascists.
|
| Or lastly UK still has a sizable portion of its citizens that
| believes the Uk colonialism was ultimately good and righteous.
| himinlomax wrote:
| > However I think you're grossly building up Germans as
| ignorant goodmen.
|
| That's not at all what I'm saying, if you mean Germans during
| WW2. However if we're talking about today, it's certainly the
| case that Germans are unequivocal about their past while
| Japanese people as a whole are not.
| digikazi wrote:
| (To quote Speer: "I didn't know, I could have known, I should
| have known." He's been vilified but I haven't seen anything to
| paint him as a liar as far as this is concerned.)
|
| Read Gitta Sereny's "Albert Speer, his battle with the truth".
| It's a thick book, but fascinating. She casts serious doubt on
| Speer's assertion that he didn't know about the death camps, or
| that Jews were systematically being exterminated.
| rsynnott wrote:
| > To quote Speer: "I didn't know, I could have known, I should
| have known."
|
| While it's credible that the average German civilian didn't
| know what was going on (though they would have known
| _something_ was going on), Speer certainly knew:
| https://www.theguardian.com/world/2007/mar/13/secondworldwar...
| himinlomax wrote:
| Maybe he did, but the deniability was indeed plausible. And
| I'm aware that many doubt his sincerity, and it's perfectly
| reasonable to do so. That being said, I find his explanation
| not just plausible as well but more useful as an explanation.
| People chose not to see or believe what was too inconvenient.
| See cognitive dissonance. That explains how the Nazis got
| them to do what they did. Note that I'm not saying that they
| were ignorant of every crime, just that they were spared the
| undeniable knowledge of the most offensive ones, making it
| easier to support or at least fail to oppose the regime.
| Deporting the Jews was bad enough, and that was done in plain
| sight, but not quite as unpalatable as their mass murder.
|
| The point here is that Japanese soldiers were massively
| trained to perform horrible things. They mistreated prisoners
| of war, civilians, anyone, everywhere, and new recruits were
| forced to perform horrors as part of their induction. Germans
| on the other hand respected the rules of war in the West
| (though certainly not in the East) for instance, except
| obviously for the SS. They were certainly keen to appear
| legit in that respect. The Japanese were not, ever.
| rsynnott wrote:
| A more recent Speer quote:
|
| > In the letter to Jeanty, written on December 23 1971,
| Speer wrote: "There is no doubt - I was present as Himmler
| announced on October 6 1943 that all Jews would be killed".
|
| Not much plausible deniability there. He lied at the time
| to avoid being executed.
| FlyingSnake wrote:
| This is a great and unheard story, and truly inspiring. When I
| heard a "Japanese Schindler" I was expecting a Japanese person
| saving Chinese people during the Nanking and other massacres. Are
| there any examples of Japanese people going against the Japanese
| govt to save innocent Chinese people?
| DicIfTEx wrote:
| As immortalised in song by David Rovics -
| https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BcFAhFWyuP0
| ajarmst wrote:
| I always liked the way he responded when asked (many years later)
| why he did it. Paraphrased, it was along the lines of "It was so
| obviously the right thing to do, but it would have been nearly
| impossible to push through the bureaucracy, so I just went ahead
| and did it myself." He did something so profoundly good that we
| are compelled to wish we could live up to such an example, and
| the reason he did it? He didn't really have one. It just never
| occurred to him not to do it. Which is as good a definition of
| "hero" as you're likely to run across. "Righteous among nations"
| indeed.
| DicIfTEx wrote:
| Anton Schmid [0] said something similar: 'We all must die. But
| if I can choose whether to die as a murderer or a helper, I
| choose death as a helper.'
|
| [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anton_Schmid
| duxup wrote:
| And it was as simple as just doing it and not being limited to
| just what someone would or wouldn't allow.
| mokarma wrote:
| My grandfather was saved by Sugihara together with the rest of
| the Mir Yeshiva (Rabbinical College). I am forever grateful to
| him.
| jbay808 wrote:
| Mine too. It's quite a surprise to see him show up on HN. Such
| a simple deed with such huge significance. It reminds me to
| think about what I might be able to do that could end up being
| life-changing for others someday.
|
| It's a shame that he lost his career over it. I'm glad to see
| him finally getting the recognition he deserves.
| endtime wrote:
| My wife's grandfather and his family as well. Sugihara is an
| honored name in our home.
| Abishek_Muthian wrote:
| What a great man he is, When a niche site like this gets
| multiple accounts from people whose lives were positively
| impacted by him especially on a slow day(HN visits are low
| during weekends).
| fodmap wrote:
| Another not so well known hero is Angel Sanz Briz.
|
| https://jewishjournal.com/news/318809/spanish-schindler-who-...
| DoingIsLearning wrote:
| On the same note of WW2 unsong diplomats:
|
| Aristides de Sousa Mendes, was a portuguese diplomat in Bordeux
| France.
|
| He against explicit orders granted 30k visas of which 10k were
| jews.
|
| His diplomatic career was terminated. He was shunned back in
| Portugal, died in debt, feed by a Jewish soup kitchen.
|
| Holocaust scholar Yehuda Bauer characterized Sousa Mendes' deed
| as "perhaps the largest rescue action by a single individual
| during the Holocaust."
|
| In his own words: "From now on I'm giving everyone visas, there
| will be no more nationalities, races or religion. I cannot
| allow all you people to die..."
|
| [0] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aristides_de_Sousa_Mendes
| [deleted]
| vmception wrote:
| > Though they didn't face systematic murder, many were persecuted
| as Communist ideology was against all religions.
|
| Can we keep that part of the philosophy? I kind of like how it
| treats it as a mental disease, I fail to see any other
| explanation, they fit the actual definition of meme. Verbal
| virus.
|
| Not trying to be edgy, remarkably _less_ edgy than Karl.
| VHRanger wrote:
| Absolute badass.
|
| People like him, Raoul Wallenberg and Schindler put everything at
| risk because they understood their sacrifice had 1000x leverage
| on others lives.
|
| We should all aspire to be as courageous if the opportunity
| presents itself.
| yboris wrote:
| The opportunity to help others at 1000x leverage is already
| here for all of us.
|
| The most _cost-effective_ [0] charities are a thousand times
| more effective at helping people as regular charities. For
| example, for ~$0.5 you can cure a child of parasitic worms in
| their stomach. For ~$3 you can protect someone form malaria for
| ~4 years.
|
| You can join thousands of others who choose to give at least
| 10% of their income to the mot _cost-effective_ charities they
| can find [1]
|
| And join the _Effective Altruism_ movement to be involved in
| helping others effectively [2]
|
| [0] https://www.givewell.org/charities/top-charities
|
| [1] https://www.givingwhatwecan.org/
|
| [2] https://www.effectivealtruism.org/
| cik wrote:
| Also importantly, validate _annually_ that the charity you
| chose is still on the list. Too many charities scale, and
| frankly become poor at efficiency and distribution. A
| shocking number of larger charities are effectively
| marketing, and subcontract to smaller organizations.
| pjc50 wrote:
| There's still an estimated eighty million refugees and
| displaced persons in the world:
| https://www.unhcr.org/uk/figures-at-a-glance.html
|
| Every now and again, the opportunity comes by you to tick a box
| that determines how your country treats them, an act which can
| make a difference while costing you nothing and incurring no
| personal risk.
| hef19898 wrote:
| And it seems we didn't learn a thing.
| MomoXenosaga wrote:
| Refugees tend to cost a metric ton of money. If you're a tax
| payer it will cost you money. Go woke go broke.
| i_am_new_here wrote:
| > while costing you nothing and incurring no personal risk.
|
| Read: While costing a lot and putting you at high risk.
|
| How can you say otherwise?
| pjc50 wrote:
| Voting in most free countries is cheap and easy. Would you
| like to spell out what you mean?
| i_am_new_here wrote:
| There is a lot of free, cheap and easy things... It is
| not interesting to point them out.
|
| Accomodating and feeding people are among the most
| expensive things that exist. Refugees are very expensive
| for societies that take them in!
|
| Unfortunately your wishful thinking does not match
| reality. I know everything could be so nice, but in
| reality you will steal, when you have nothing/little
| putting those around you _at risk_.
| pjc50 wrote:
| You realize this is basically arguing that Sugihara did
| the wrong thing?
| i_am_new_here wrote:
| No
|
| I argue that it created costs [for him and/or others] and
| put him (and others) at increased risk.
| savingsPossible wrote:
| He/She may
|
| 1) Think Sugihara was right 2) Believe that taking
| refugees into europe is worse on average/bad
|
| All it takes is a different reason for Sugihara to be
| right
| krastanov wrote:
| Funny thing is that I would have said "Accomodating and
| feeding people are among the most cheap and reasonable
| things to do, with great ROI."
| fnordprefect wrote:
| There is a very interesting book about him that I read years ago:
|
| "In Search of Sugihara" by Hillel Levine
|
| https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/1119369.In_Search_of_Sug...
|
| It seems to be readily available on kindle, but harder to find in
| print.
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