[HN Gopher] A US socialite who gave it all up to become a Carmel...
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A US socialite who gave it all up to become a Carmelite nun
Author : pepys
Score : 145 points
Date : 2021-06-11 04:09 UTC (2 days ago)
(HTM) web link (www.bbc.com)
(TXT) w3m dump (www.bbc.com)
| VoodooJuJu wrote:
| I think she had her priorities a little mixed up. When you have a
| son, your duty, your number one priority, is him. Abandoning your
| child is a crime against humanity.
| rmk wrote:
| What a remarkable, long-lived life! It's common to turn one's
| attention to spiritual pursuits in one's old age, but a full
| third of one's life is very long and unusual indeed.
|
| An excellent human interest story!
| akudha wrote:
| It is amazing that she could do such a radical change
| overnight, that too at an older age. Like, how can one go from
| luxurious lifestyle to sleeping on the floor overnight? Most
| people would have trouble giving up their luxuries for a couple
| of days.
|
| Incredible!
| susiecambria wrote:
| In action it was overnight, but she was drawn to being a nun
| from an early age. I'm sure that this idea, this dream was
| always in the back of her mind.
|
| But I do take your point. Dropping everything. Heck, I can't
| miss a coffee in the morning! But it does show internal (and
| external) fortitude.
| tw04 wrote:
| Not to downplay her commitment, but given she joined
| immediately after her husband died, perhaps she wasn't thinking
| it was going to be for a full third of her life when she
| started.
| rmk wrote:
| No doubt that is almost certainly true, but if you read the
| article, you will find that she was intending to become a nun
| when she fell in love and started a family. It sounds like
| she practically postponed her dream of becoming a nun and got
| the family responsibilities over with before heading to the
| cloister.
| Thorrez wrote:
| >On her 61st birthday [...] [s]he told her guests she had
| devoted her first 30 years of life to herself, the second 30
| to her children and that the last third of her life would be
| dedicated to God.
|
| Even if it was just a joke, she probably at least knew it was
| a possibility.
| bobthechef wrote:
| Reminds me of Dolores Hart (who is now an abbess, IIRC).
|
| I can't say the comments here shock me, exactly, but they
| certainly are revealing. Specifically, so many of them pass
| judgement on this woman as if she had done something terrible and
| project their own categories onto her, characterizing this,
| without the slightest shred of evidence, as somehow sad. How lost
| one must be to claim such a thing!
|
| Sister Mary Joseph had only chosen to be a Carmelite nun after
| her husband had died and her children had grown up. She had no
| dependents or husbands for whom or to whom she was responsible
| anymore. She was not a single mother who had somehow abandoned
| her children. Would she miss her children? Probably, but she
| found a higher calling for which she sacrificed such contact and
| there is no higher calling than the religious life. In her case,
| she clearly felt called to devote herself in this particular way.
| I have no reason to presume that she didn't know what she was
| getting herself into (besides, religious orders do not simply let
| anybody in who isn't serious or even qualified in basic ways). Do
| her children miss her? Arguably, yes, but if they remain in the
| faith and see the world through a Catholic lens, they are likely
| to be joyful about having pursued this calling. There is nothing
| sad about it. It is a very joyful and wonderful thing. It is
| inspiring.
|
| Catholics (not of the cafeteria variety, anyway) find happiness
| in sacrificing lesser goods for higher goods and in the
| sanctification that comes with the suffering life will inevitably
| inflict on us. So let's just say she didn't join the order to be
| comfortable, but to grow spiritually in a particularly austere
| order. If you aren't Catholic, this may not make much sense to
| you. Someone who is a slave to comfort and whose horizons are
| severely limited and parochial will think this is downright
| crazy. But the Catholic understanding of reality, of Man, and of
| God imparts a vertical dimension and a breadth that is absent
| otherwise. Catholic anthropology is not reductive, and Man, after
| all, does not live by bread alone.
| lurquer wrote:
| Reminds me of that Nun who gave it all up to become an Austrian
| socialite. Van Trap something?
| ceejayoz wrote:
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maria_von_Trapp
| astrange wrote:
| Not a very flattering picture.
| geerlingguy wrote:
| In her case, I think she was still a 'postulate', basically in
| preparation to become a nun, and the 'Mother Superior' or
| whatever the head nun was at her convent told her she should
| marry Captain Avon Trapp. Sometimes reality is stranger than
| fiction!
| iammisc wrote:
| I don't think she gave it up to be a socialite. She gave it up
| to be with the children. Her biography is very interesting
| dragonwriter wrote:
| She "gave it up" because she was directed by her religious
| superior to do so, and was initially unhappy about it. (As
| well as shifting timing related to external political events,
| the popular musical retelling changes this, because it makes
| a less simplistically charming narrative.)
| nautilus12 wrote:
| Alot of these comments seem to be some form of trying to justify
| her decision as not being unique or spiritually inspired. I would
| encourage you to let things be what they are and not over analyze
| them
| [deleted]
| agomez314 wrote:
| I wish the article delved more into the rich spiritual life that
| these people have. The article dwells on the material goods and
| lavish lifestyle and abruptly shoves up the fact that she
| abandoned it all - almost as if the author can't believe it
| herself!
|
| Recently I passed the Philadelphia downtown and noticed an amish
| family selling flowers from their truck. A large crowd gathered
| and wondered at the sight of the industrious family in 19th
| century garb. It's a sight unlike many city-dwellers, especially
| young people, get to see: chastity, family, religious devotion.
| People of today are so used to living in a culture that tells
| them owning more, having sex and expressing "your identity" is
| the path to happiness that many become stumped when shown this
| amish family doing business in a world so totally different than
| their own.
|
| I love it. This is diversity of thought and lifestyle. In
| comparison, modern culture is extremely homogeneous and boring. I
| appreciate the witness of Ann Russel as a person who shows us
| that there's more to life than what we can see and touch, and
| that there's great joy in seeking spiritual union with God.
| [deleted]
| [deleted]
| cheese_goddess wrote:
| > This is diversity of thought and lifestyle.
|
| Compared to everyone who is not a member of those communities,
| perhaps. But for the people who grow inside those communities,
| there's no diversity, the nail that sticks up is hammered down
| and everyone is just like everyone else. After all, those are
| religious cults that actively discourage diversity and
| encourage conformity to the community's norms.
| dangus wrote:
| Your views remind me of this article I read a while back:
|
| https://thefederalist.com/2019/10/18/gender-studies-professo...
|
| I find the concept of pleasure oppression to be interesting.
| Essentially, the idea is that puritanical roots teach us that
| things that are pleasurable must be sinful and wrong, and that
| the oppression is felt most strongly by marginalized groups.
|
| Your positive manifestation of the simple life is living like
| the Amish. What you've omitted is the fact that the
| Amish/Mennonite societies run as authoritarian patriarchies,
| where the bishop figure and head of household (the husband)
| have the final word.
|
| I think there is a misconception that religious people have
| about the non-religious where they assume non-religious people
| are living a life of consumerism and materialism in lieu of
| God.
|
| Ultimately, those concepts aren't related: believing in a
| particular brand of God isn't a prerequisite to helping one
| another and living a life of service to others. The non-
| religious just don't accept biblical stories as fact, and they
| might believe that any sort of afterlife is not a realistic
| expectation.
|
| The religious and non-religious alike live within a wide
| spectrum of materialism. There are certainly materialistic
| Christians and materialistic atheists, but there are also the
| opposite.
|
| Locking yourself in a self-imposed religious prison for 30
| years is on the extreme end of the spectrum. The reason it's a
| news article is because it's an incredibly rare, strange thing
| to do. In my opinion, this reputation of strangeness is
| rightfully deserved.
| agomez314 wrote:
| I think you're misunderstanding and reading too much from my
| argument. The thrust of it is that I sincerely believe modern
| society (by which I mean Western, US culture 2020s) places a
| heavy emphasis on consumption and reaping of pleasure as much
| as possible and that this culture is oppressive and coerces
| people to do the same lest they be labeled "old-fashioned,
| cultist" or worse, "religious" (which in itself carries a bad
| connotation nowadays).
|
| The fact that the story is strange to you goes straight to my
| point. Throughout history, monks, wisemen and religious
| figures have retreated from the world to seek spiritual
| peace. There's extensive literature and history that shows
| this to be valid path for a person to take, if they so wish
| and are in the disposition to do so.
| dangus wrote:
| Frankly, I read into your comment as much as I did because
| it came across as not-so-subtle preaching.
| [deleted]
| TMWNN wrote:
| Dolores Hart (<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dolores_Hart>) left
| Hollywood to become a Benedictine nun.
| [deleted]
| personlurking wrote:
| I think the problem could have been avoided if she had entered a
| less strict convent/order (I imagine such a thing exists). That
| way she could devote her life to it yet still have visiting
| rights under normal conditions.
|
| As an anecdote/aside, I have a long time friend who - when we met
| - wasn't religious or spiritual in any outwardly noticeable way.
| She had a handful of interests, enjoyed discussing many life
| topics, and had a well-paying sales job with a good company. As
| the years went on, she had three kids from unhealthy romantic
| relationships, became more and more spiritual and gave up her job
| to start a part-time, new age micro business. Not only did her
| income go way, way down to the point that she constantly
| struggles to pay her bills, but everything she says is
| spiritually-motivated. In a real sense, she stopped being a
| person and became a mouth-piece of her spiritual beliefs. I
| recently realized she's no different than a monk or a nun (whose
| beliefs are weaved into everything they say), only she still
| lives in the real world.
|
| As a result of all this, our deep and diverse weekly discussions
| became less and less frequent (to the point of being almost non-
| existent), not to mention extremely unidimensional. She might as
| well have gone to live in a convent because I lost my friend all
| the same. Am I happy she's happy doing what she loves? Sure, but
| I also mourn the almost complete loss of the person I knew.
| dragonwriter wrote:
| > I think the problem could have been avoided if she had
| entered a less strict convent/order (I imagine such a thing
| exists).
|
| Non-cloistered orders not only exist, but are the largest for
| both men and women.
| codingdave wrote:
| > no different than a monk or a nun (whose beliefs are weaved
| into everything they say)
|
| How many monks or nuns have you know? I grew up going to
| Catholic schools, and can assure you that monks, nun, and
| priests are real people who have real conversation. Maybe not
| the ones who choose to join the specific order the woman from
| the article joined, but in general, yes.
|
| I can sympathize that your friend grew apart from you. I've had
| friends do the same. But that is life. It would be short-
| sighted to write off entire groups of people because of one
| person's experience.
| personlurking wrote:
| >I grew up going to Catholic schools
|
| Me, too. Church every Sunday and Bible studies every week
| (for many years), plus Catholic school (for a year).
|
| I'm not saying they are one-dimentional. I'm saying their
| views on many subjects tend to be filtered through their
| religious belief. Different from a plumber, a banker or a
| teacher who wouldn't filter their perspectives on many
| subjects through their vocation.
| dragonwriter wrote:
| > Different from a plumber, a banker or a teacher who
| wouldn't filter their perspectives on many subjects through
| their vocation.
|
| Not their job, but in many cases they'd filter it through
| their religious, political, or otherwise ideological
| beliefs. Which, ib the case of specifically Catholic
| religious views would (as well as their status as a married
| person or committed single) be considered as much part of
| their vocation as it would be for someone called to
| religious life and/or holy orders.
| Mediterraneo10 wrote:
| Roman Catholics monks often being "real people who have real
| conversation" is largely the result of certain monastic
| orders being created with laxer rules on interacting with the
| secular world. Historically, and still today within stricter
| Catholics orders and in the Eastern Orthodox tradition, monks
| and nuns are encouraged to limit conversation on secular
| themes. Definitely one can go and interact with the monks or
| nuns, but that interaction is best limited to conversation on
| spiritual themes, discussion of work that has to be done, or
| just enjoying the silence together.
| pyuser583 wrote:
| A very different San Francisco.
|
| I've had dinner at that Hilton several times.
| neom wrote:
| I watched this movie a few years ago, I _highly_ recommend it:
| https://www.imdb.com/title/tt1613092/
|
| Anyway, it features a guy who left his well paid finance job to
| go dedicate his life to working at the Kalighat Home for the
| Dying. The whole movie is inspiring, but that particular section
| stuck with me.
|
| It's stories like this article and the one in the movie I
| mentioned that make me excited for later life. Although,
| sometimes I think I should do it today...
| pstuart wrote:
| > make me excited for later life
|
| The trick is to be excited for _today_. Of course that 's much
| easier said than done ;-)
| kQq9oHeAz6wLLS wrote:
| You should check out Katie Davis Majors'[1] story for someone
| who took the plunge early, and never regretted it.
|
| [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Katie_Davis_(missionary)
| weinzierl wrote:
| I had a Deja vu reading this BBC article because it is so close
| to the original Twitter thread, which appeared on my timeline a
| few days ago, that in my opinion it is borderline plagiarism. At
| least the BBC had the decency to link to the original source
| which most other newspapers never do nowadays.
|
| To save you the detour to the BBC website here is the original:
|
| https://twitter.com/4t9ner/status/1401458601462403077?s=21
| cortesoft wrote:
| I am torn on this. On one hand I applaud someone who follows
| their dream in spite of societal pressures.
|
| On the other hand, she only saw her son twice in 30 years. I
| would be pretty upset at my mom if she did that, and I can't
| imagine doing that to my kids. Not meeting my grandkids, even
| though I am still alive? That is unimaginable to me.
| sudosteph wrote:
| Eh, my mom's not 60 yet - but I wouldn't be mad at her if she
| did something like this (not that she ever would). I think
| parents are entitled to be individuals, especially if they've
| already fulfilled the core parental duties of raising their own
| children. They don't owe their kids anything else after that.
| MisterBastahrd wrote:
| Parents have a responsibility when they create a child that
| doesn't disappear simply because that kid becomes an adult.
| If every 18 year old on the planet were left to their own
| devices, it would be an absolute disaster.
| toast0 wrote:
| She did disappear, but if her kids were all doing fine, and
| the kids each had 9 siblings to turn of in case of trouble,
| I think she did her parental duty, and so why should she
| not follow her calling?
|
| It sounds like she considered it for five years, most
| likely in communication with her children, and then decided
| to go ahead with the plan. Of the many things one could
| decide to do at age 60, this one doesn't sound too bad.
| CalRobert wrote:
| Or, as a counterpoint, no they don't. 18 year olds are
| adults.
| MisterBastahrd wrote:
| That isn't a counterpoint, and it's frankly ridiculous
| given any sort of actual consideration of the modern
| world.
| CalRobert wrote:
| Ok, when are people grown up?
| [deleted]
| robbintt wrote:
| They don't. But we often put on a good show.
| iammisc wrote:
| Catholic monastic orders aren't going to accept parents
| unless they can demonstrate they've already performed their
| religious duties to children. My guess would be the
| children were okay with it, and she had to show the order.
| Given her previous occupation, I doubt her children were
| left materially wanting
| treyfitty wrote:
| What do you mean? A lot of my friends and I gained
| independence at 18, and it was liberating for us. Not sure
| what disaster was supposed to ensue.
| ironmagma wrote:
| Independence yes, but complete independence in every way?
| Of course not. There is an offramping period, and for
| many, the benefits of familial bonds continue throughout
| life including things like a safety net in case you lose
| your job.
| MisterBastahrd wrote:
| I'm sure you're really special.
|
| Most 18 year olds aren't remotely ready for complete
| isolation from their parents, though.
| maccard wrote:
| I moved out at 18. I still remember phoning my dad about
| 3 months later panicking because I didn't realise that my
| gas and electricity bills were two separate things that
| had to be paid.
|
| I was independent, buyi was definitely not ready for
| isolation.
| Grustaf wrote:
| Just as a counterpoint, moving out at 18 is the norm here
| in the Nordics, living with your parents when you're 22
| is considered weird.
| Torwald wrote:
| How does society help parents of 18 year olds with that
| tasks?
|
| I see expensive college and unlike it used to be it is
| nowadays an open question wether you will recoup the cost.
| Military recruiters trying to "get" your kids. In some
| countries you can get paid therapy via health care.
| randomdata wrote:
| When did you ever recoup your cost? Incomes held stagnant
| through the rise of college attainment, which means that
| there was no increase in pay to cover the cost.
| decremental wrote:
| I generally agree. Though we've sort of swung in the
| opposite direction it seems where parents will fail to
| instill an upbringing that doesn't end up with their kids
| being 35 and still at home. Also an absolute disaster by my
| estimation.
| splithalf wrote:
| Rich parents are very different. Imagine sending your
| children off to boarding school! But that's seen as
| perfectly normal in rich people culture, and has been for
| centuries.
| [deleted]
| xwdv wrote:
| Life does not revolve around a child, especially when you have
| several. Grandchildren even less.
|
| A parent roamed the earth with their own desires and business
| long before a child came into the world. Children may feel they
| are the most important thing in a parent's life because they
| are constantly fed, watered, and sheltered without fail, and
| they have known their parent their whole life. But a child is
| only a small phase of a parent's life, a small piece of a
| larger plan, or sometimes no plan at all.
| Grustaf wrote:
| > Life does not revolve around a child
|
| Of course it does - while they actually are children they
| should be your number 1 priority and the focus of all you do.
| But once they're adults it's a different story altogether.
| xenocyon wrote:
| It may be shocking, but this is often what happens when people
| discover their monastic calling in adulthood. Buddha famously
| abandoned his wife and infant son when he decided to pursue his
| path.
|
| Furthermore, some people have little contact with their
| children for even weaker reasons. The fact is that we are
| inclined to judge women harshly for actions which would hardly
| seem remarkable for, say, a male rock star.
| garmaine wrote:
| > The fact is that we are inclined to judge women harshly for
| actions which would hardly seem remarkable for, say, a male
| rock star.
|
| I don't think this is true. Walk-out dads are judged very
| harshly by our culture too.
| iammisc wrote:
| Her children would have been way past childhood by the time
| she became a nun... like way past.
| jl6 wrote:
| But being a parent doesn't end when the kid turns 18.
| CalRobert wrote:
| The part where you live to fulfill their needs does,
| though.
| hn_throwaway_99 wrote:
| I would hope there is some middle ground between "live to
| fulfill their needs" and "seeing them twice in 30 years
| and never seeing your grandchildren".
| threatofrain wrote:
| I'd argue that fulfilling a child's needs is the bedrock
| to a more important parental goal -- helping your
| children attain optimism in a world where many people
| lose.
| iammisc wrote:
| Being religious is already enough though. Catholics
| attending mass are least likely to commit suicide amongst
| other outcomes
| vanattab wrote:
| It doesn't for many patents. Many people draw meaning
| from life through their close relationships.
| watwut wrote:
| By the time the offspring is 30, parents are free to make
| decisions for themselves. At that point, many children
| themselves left miles away and have only sporadic contact
| due to living independently. Or joimed army. It is absurd
| to talk about it as if they were 5.
|
| There is be way to become nun or monk without leaving
| your parents, siblings, friends, literally everyone.
| Grustaf wrote:
| Depends on which monastic order you join. Some are
| extremely strict.
|
| Completely agree about "abandoning" your adult children.
| e17 wrote:
| I'm not sure this is true, the prime minister of the United
| Kingdom is literally a deadbeat dad. He went to court to
| disown one of his children and it's not public knowledge
| how many children he actually has.
| bencollier49 wrote:
| That's complete and utter rubbish. He's had several
| relationships, and is clearly a philanderer, but no-one
| has any idea of the nature of his financial or personal
| relationships with his children, because they're private.
| He went to court to try to preserve that privacy.
| e17 wrote:
| Which bit is rubish? You haven't refuted my points with
| anything of substance. He's a public figure, if he wants
| privacy he shouldn't have run in national elections. He
| had an injunction on the McIntyre child, that sounds like
| disownment to me. "I love you, child, but nobody can know
| about you" He has no contact with any of his children
| apart from the new one, that's a deadbeat dad. We do not
| know how many children he has. Does he?
| hn_throwaway_99 wrote:
| > He's a public figure, if he wants privacy he shouldn't
| have run in national elections.
|
| Others have commented on how absolutely ridiculous and
| insane this is, but it also highlights one reason (among
| many) that we generally have such shitty politicians. If
| you believe that running in national elections should
| make every single aspect of your private life open to
| public scrutiny, don't be surprised if the types of
| people willing to run for public office only care about
| increasing their own power.
| WastingMyTime89 wrote:
| > He's a public figure, if he wants privacy he shouldn't
| have run in national elections.
|
| That's rubbish. His public life has nothing to do with
| his private life. The fact that he is a politician
| doesn't mean the public has to know about his
| relationship with his children. His public actions speak
| loud enough for people to judge his quality (or lack
| thereof) as an elected official.
|
| I think the cultural gap between American and European on
| this point will probably never be bridged.
| bencollier49 wrote:
| Of course he sees his children; there are plenty of
| documented occasions when he's been with them recently,
| and why would we know about the others?
|
| Having an injunction on naming a child isn't disownment.
| It's protecting the privacy of the child. Name it, and
| now it needs police protection 24/7.
|
| Your characterisation is way off track IMO, but it's a
| popular viewpoint on Twitter and in the Guardian.
| dbt00 wrote:
| Eh, Steve Jobs still gets shit around here for the way he
| treated his first daughter (and rightfully so).
| imwillofficial wrote:
| Are you comparing Steve Jobs refusing to pay child support
| for His daughter to Buddha?
| Torwald wrote:
| Are you talking about Lisa?
| toyg wrote:
| She did see _some_ grandchildren - tbh, with so many children,
| keeping track of every single one of their spawn would be hard
| even for a normal person.
|
| Also, from back-of-envelop calculations, by the time she joined
| the convent her youngest child was in their 30s, the oldest in
| her 40s. It's not too different, in practice, from entering a
| hospice because of health issues.
| [deleted]
| xwolfi wrote:
| Bah god is more important than your whiny grandkids, and by
| spending all this time in prayer she's surely helping them.
|
| Religion is an ideological cancer: no need to be torn, this
| person followed an obsessive sickness, not a dream.
| narrator wrote:
| Edit: You actually got canceled. I retract my comment.
| iammisc wrote:
| > I would be pretty upset at my mom if she did that, and I
| can't imagine doing that to my kids.
|
| Are you or your kids Catholic? I mean... some parents would be
| upset if their children decided to become vowed celibates, but
| if you're Catholic, and all your children decided to do this,
| you may be able to be happy. I am honestly shocked here that
| Hacker News is responding to this happening as if it is taking
| place in secular society, when the entire family seems
| religious.
| chairmanwow1 wrote:
| Yeah, I think this fact shifts this story out of laudable
| territory for me. I think this is a really sad story.
| canadianfella wrote:
| > she only saw her son twice in 30 years.
|
| She is a piece of shit and religion needs to be criticized more
| often.
| swman wrote:
| I get that too but as I get older I start "getting it" as to
| why people do what they do.
|
| Doesn't matter who they are to me, but life is complicated and
| ultimately it's easier to just be understanding and let go.
| thih9 wrote:
| > I would be pretty upset at my mom if she did that
|
| I'm very surprised at this reaction. I feel like the right
| approach would be to respect her right to make a personal
| decisions.
| WastingMyTime89 wrote:
| You can both respect people right to make personal decisions
| and think these decisions are shit and affect their
| relationship with you negatively.
|
| If my mother decided she was going to join not just a
| religious order but one of the most strict and one of the
| only ones preventing her to see us I would not be
| particularly happy about her choice.
| [deleted]
| thih9 wrote:
| Note that GP wrote about being upset _at_ their mother,
| this seems different from what you're describing?
|
| > I would not be particularly happy about her choice.
|
| This seems just being upset in general; which, I agree,
| isn't inappropriate.
| tssva wrote:
| It sounds like you probably have a fairly healthy and loving
| relationship with your mother. Not all family relationships are
| that way whether at the fault of the parents, children or both.
| I recommend not projecting your family history on to others and
| judging them based upon it.
|
| Some parents and some children don't deserve to be seen more
| than twice in 30 years. Some children should never suffer being
| exposed to their grandparents.
| cortesoft wrote:
| That doesn't make the story any less tragic. To have 10 kids
| and not want to see any of them is beyond sad.
| nyokodo wrote:
| > To have 10 kids and not want to see any of them is beyond
| sad.
|
| Monastic life is a sacrifice, in part because those who
| follow it _do_ want to see their family etc. She felt that
| following Christ in a life of prayer separate from the
| world was what her heart most wanted, it was what God was
| calling her to do, and it was important for her salvation.
| You do not understand that but any faithful Catholic child
| would even though it is bittersweet for them too.
| sizt wrote:
| Try to remember, a mother, including yours, is just a girl
| with her own dreams.
| iammisc wrote:
| You realize there's a whole religious backdrop to this as
| well right? She seems like a faithful Catholic. If here
| children are as well, then they probably see nothing wrong
| with this. It's not about not wanting to see them, it's
| about wanting to live your calling more. It's like the
| Sound of Music, when Mother Superior tells Maria that
| loving Captain Von Trapp does not mean loving God less, but
| in reverse.
| mattbee wrote:
| because your mom might have brought you up differently if she'd
| wanted to join a nunnery.
| Baeocystin wrote:
| I'm not torn at all. I find it reprehensible, and I am
| genuinely surprised that more of the comments here don't find
| that behavior horrible. There is nothing noble about having 10
| kids, then cutting them out of your life once their other
| parent died. I mean, wtf.
| nyokodo wrote:
| > I find it reprehensible
|
| I would imagine most people wouldn't judge her if she was a
| firefighter who died in the line of duty because she "could
| have chosen a safer job." This is because people generally
| appreciate this kind of sacrifice. Your attitude is based on
| the assumption that her sacrifice wasn't worthwhile, well she
| thought it was and Catholics think it was. Her children were
| grown, she felt a calling from God, and ultimately it was her
| life.
| futevolei wrote:
| I think this is the key point. My take on this situation is
| completely colored by my anti-religious views. I view her
| sacrifice as completely idiotic and worthless. But it's
| clear she needed to do this. I can fake a lot of stuff for
| some amount of time for whatever particular reason- think
| along the lines of showing support for my wife. But I can't
| sacrifice what she did for 3 decades without having that
| flame deep inside.
| Baeocystin wrote:
| Firefighters actively invest in and protect their
| communities. Her choice was in diametric opposition- the
| complete severing of human ties outside of her own small
| world, even of those to her children.
|
| I do not think this is a noble action. Certainly some will
| disagree with me. So be it, then we disagree.
| typhonic wrote:
| I don't know that we have enough information to judge her. I
| mean, she was a socialite; how close was she to her children?
| And, after all, she left each of them with nine siblings. I
| wish I had nine lifelong friends.
| ljm wrote:
| Why do we need to judge her at all?
|
| I can only sympathise with the socialite renouncing the
| society that continues to criticise them; which in much of
| this entire thread amounts to judging her for not
| dedicating her entire life to motherhood.
|
| Her grown-ass children will either be happy for her, or
| they'll be mourning their loss. Or maybe a mix of both. But
| they'll deal and life will go on.
| Baeocystin wrote:
| I'm pretty comfortable judging the act of excising all of
| one's (ten!) children from one's life as being a shitty
| thing to do.
|
| Even other cloistered orders allow letter-writing, and
| there are semi-cloistered orders where family can come
| visit any time. There is nothing about the act of becoming
| a nun that mandated her cutting of her connections to her
| children.
| watwut wrote:
| I just cant find interpretation in which your outrage makes
| sense. 60 years old person leaving for monastery is somehow
| outrageous abandonment of her 30 years old offspring.
|
| I dont know whether this is being edgy contrarian or sexism
| in which women dont get to make choices for themselve. HN
| contains plenty of those.
|
| But projecting 5 years old thinking into her adult children
| is uttery absurd. Especially since I have never seen outrage
| over literally anyone else not being involved or leave for
| long or risks death when his kids are small.
| Baeocystin wrote:
| Respectfully, it is neither of the presented options.
|
| Something to keep in mind: _I_ am the one who posted my
| opinion. Not the nebulous Hacker News gestalt. I, speaking
| just for myself, find parents willfully rejecting all of
| their children, at any age, to be ugly across the board. I
| would say the same if it had been the husband fleeing to a
| Monastic order, and I would say the same about (for
| example) Jobs ' treatment of his first daughter.
|
| I know we all form general ideas of how any particular
| forum will think. Boards have moods. But if we allow
| ourselves to see that impression as a person, of course we
| will be annoyed at the perceived inconsistencies and
| hypocrisies. But that is a false impression- those would
| only hold true if it were an single individual making such
| varied claims.
| imwillofficial wrote:
| I mean at 60, that's a ton of socialite living she got done. She
| only gave up a retirement.
| FounderBurr wrote:
| So she gave them all her money and they kept her behind bars for
| the rest of her life. How is this not a cult?
| jollybean wrote:
| A religion is the embodiment of spiritual principle.
|
| A cult is an institution which exists to empower and enrich
| leadership structure of the cult.
|
| Given the infallibility of humans, there can be lot of
| cultishness in religion.
|
| Paradoxically, a lot of cult members are actually true
| believers, often trying to - and doing - quite some good,
| meaning there can in many cases be some good 'conscientious
| externalizations' of even some otherwise crappy cults. This is
| harder to grasp but it's real.
|
| There are many otherwise secular groups that exist in this
| sphere especially among 1) ideologically oriented groups - and
| 2) corporations. My personal exposure to these kinds of
| environments triggers that 'weird feeling' whenever I visit
| such-and-such campus, in the Silicon Valley and elsewhere.
|
| There are political organizations, even 'nice ones' in 'nice
| countries' that take children, not even teens, off in isolation
| to places like 'camps on islands' to 'teach them their values'.
| Because of the lack of obvious religious artifacts, it doesn't
| set of the usual triggers, but when taking a more holistic view
| ... it seems a bit unhealthy.
|
| Even more meta, it seems to me that cultures that have very
| deep and complex behavioural patterns, idioms, norms, language
| structure etc. exhibit a lot of the same attributes.
|
| You could go so far as to point at many 'major cultures' ...
| but to be a little less controversial, my experience with both
| Amish and Mennonite community certainly has elements of this.
| But I reserve judgment. It's complicated. And also they are
| some of the most inconceivably kind people on the planet. FYI
| they are effectively pacifists, as 'God's Children should not
| take up arms against one another' etc. - they won't join the
| Army.
|
| Edit: from a purely secular perspective, where the notion of
| 'there being a god or not' or where 'beliefs' etc. irrelevant
| ... than really what is the difference between the Soviet
| Union, for example, and a cult? They exhibit all of the same
| artifacts. The only difference being, in some cults, there
| might be some kind of supernatural extra beliefs to go along
| with it. Stalin used (perverted?) a secular ideology in the
| same way as a cult would use their own system of beliefs. 99%
| of the resulting systematic and authoritarian externalizations
| have nothing to do with the 'core beliefs' in both cases.
|
| Edit 2: whether 'core principles' are ideological, spiritual,
| corporatist, nationalist, or even cultural, you get a lot of
| the same type of group dynamics forming.
| anonu wrote:
| You make it sound like she was forced to do this. There's
| nothing in Christianity that forces you to give your money to
| the Church or to become a nun. You do this on your own free
| will.
| [deleted]
| renewiltord wrote:
| Hmm, also true of Scientology, non?
| iammisc wrote:
| A nun won't be excommunicated for leaving the convent or
| shunned. Nor would a priest. You'd be surprised how many
| laicized priests there are around, some of whom are even
| married. Or how many ex-nuns there are. My principal at my
| Catholic elementary school was an ex-nun -- incredibly
| strict and orthodox Catholic as well. No secret was made of
| her history. She left the convent when she didn't think it
| was helping her. Still kept her vow of celibacy, although
| she was technically dispensed of it, and could have married
| if she had wanted to.
| renewiltord wrote:
| Fair enough.
| trowaway7642 wrote:
| Free will doesn't exist though. Everything is cause and
| effect. In this case it looks like a cult and mental illness
| made for an interesting but sad outcome.
| slater wrote:
| Thank you for your opinion.
| trowaway7642 wrote:
| Not really an opinion when science favors the assertion
| unlike wanting to believe in an illogical fantasy.
| bencollier49 wrote:
| Science favours nothing. Positivism has failed as a
| philosophy, and the only thing we can decide from logic
| is that it cannot comprehensively describe the origins of
| existence.
|
| I'm sorry, but past disproving myths which most people
| always understood were figurative (Genesis et al),
| science is not in a place to comment on the fundamentals
| of religion.
| trowaway7642 wrote:
| Nonsense, neuroscience favors free will being nothing
| more than an illusion while plebs still eat up the
| nonsensical belief for breakfast on Sundays.
| bencollier49 wrote:
| Don't fall for that. Firstly, they've defined free will
| incorrectly, and secondly, the whole movement to deny
| agency stems from the complete inability of anyone to
| address the hard problem of consciousness. "We cannot
| understand it, therefore it does not exist".
| trowaway7642 wrote:
| You basically wrote what a person that believes in God
| argues against atheists and although I'm agnostic I still
| find such an assertion illogical.
| bencollier49 wrote:
| I don't know which bit you're referring to. If it's the
| hard problem, then no, we haven't cracked it, and
| redefining the question to try to ignore it doesn't work.
| This approach typically comes from enthusiastic
| scientists (biologists in particular seem to be common)
| rather than actual philosophers, and often the premises
| were discussed and dismissed hundreds of years ago.
|
| If it's the claim that you can't explain the universe
| with logic, then we're perilously close to things like
| Tarski's Undefinability Theorem, and that has me
| convinced.
| amanaplanacanal wrote:
| If free will really is an illusion, then you can't help
| believing what you do, and they can't help believing what
| they do.
| trowaway7642 wrote:
| Of course some are predestined to be plebs for however
| fate has it written in stone but the same argument
| could've been made towards the earth being the center of
| the universe. Gratefully, academics can push society
| forward by helping the plebs get the resources to learn
| free will is an illusion and have a healthier life with
| that knowledge. Although still destined by
| predeterminism.
| bencollier49 wrote:
| "Plebs" - this arrogance is also characteristic of the
| cast of scientists who think they can do philosophy.
| trowaway7642 wrote:
| Pleb - an ordinary person, especially one from the lower
| social classes.
|
| That's generally where majority of believers in free will
| fall into. Besides the few that came from such families
| and got out of that lifestyle. Anyhow I believe you wrote
| arrogance unfairly when it's simply honesty. Sure, a few
| great compatibilist exist in philosophy but their
| definition of free will is nothing of the sort like what
| the plebs believe.
| jazzyjackson wrote:
| When you think someone else is crazy, consider that you
| may be misinterpreting what they're saying. Religion is a
| different language, it doesn't map on to your demand for
| logical reason.
| trowaway7642 wrote:
| Mental illness doesn't equate to crazy if that's what
| you're replying towards my previous comment mentioning
| mental illness.
|
| Although I see a world that just boils down to cause &
| effect, I find nothing wrong with people desiring to
| believe in spiritual deities but being part of a religion
| is where I speculate a lot of unhealthy behavior grows
| and has undeniably harmed a lot of lgbtq+ children. I
| would rather associate with a group of people that prefer
| logic & reason any day over persons that prefer faith
| because I've noticed in my life that persons that prefer
| faith have desires to control others without much concern
| towards the persons they control not wishing to be
| treated in such a manner.
|
| I grew up in a catholic family and I wouldn't be
| surprised if the hell they fear isn't deserved for their
| controlling tendencies that religion encourages.
| Thorrez wrote:
| >There's nothing in Christianity that forces you to give your
| money to the Church
|
| There's a wide variety of Christian churches. Some can be
| aggressive in asking for money. Most of them do promote
| donation of some of your money to them. The percentage
| varies. Some say 10% (tithe), some say whatever you feel is
| best, some might say all. I don't think the Catholic Church
| is very aggressive, nor does it say members should give it
| all their money.
| Thorrez wrote:
| >So she gave them all her money
|
| Do you have a source for this? I don't see it in the article.
|
| >and it was then she began the long, considered bid to join one
| of the strictest orders of nuns in the world.
|
| It sounds like it was hard for her to get in, and the group is
| fairly exclusive. I think cults try to get people to join by
| making it easy to join.
| Spooky23 wrote:
| Usually when you join a religious order that requires a vow
| of poverty, your stuff goes to to the order. A carmelite nun
| or Franciscan friar would be examples of that.
|
| I have a friend who was a nun in an order like that who chose
| to leave because she inherited her parent's house, and felt
| strongly about maintaining the gardens to their (very high)
| standards.
| Thorrez wrote:
| >Usually when you join a religious order that requires a
| vow of poverty, your stuff goes to to the order.
|
| Do you have a source for this? I know that a vow of poverty
| means you have to give up everything, such as your friend's
| house. But I doubt that it has to be given to the order.
| Also there might be a distinction between things you give
| away before joining (what I think this thread is about) and
| things you gain while a nun (such as inherited stuff) that
| you have to give away.
|
| > I think you can give them to your family. [1]
|
| > When you make final vows, you can give away your
| possessions (e.g. to family/friends) or donate them to the
| order. [2]
|
| > Possessions can usually be given to family or friends or
| sold and donated either to the order or a charity of
| choice. In the case of inheritance, you can either ask to
| be left out of the will or accept it and then turn it over
| to the order or gift it to another. [3]
|
| [1] https://www.reddit.com/r/Catholicism/comments/9zaegz/cu
| rious...
|
| [2] https://www.reddit.com/r/Catholicism/comments/grtzu1/ad
| vice_...
|
| [3] https://www.reddit.com/r/Catholicism/comments/grtzu1/ad
| vice_...
| renewiltord wrote:
| > Five years later she gave away everything she owned to join
| the Sisters of Our Lady of Mount Carmel in Des Plaines,
| Illinois.
|
| The source is the linked BBC article
| treyfitty wrote:
| That doesn't mean she gave it to the church. I interpreted
| that statement as "she gave away everything [to her
| children]
| renewiltord wrote:
| Hmm, fair enough. In fact, it appears from
| https://www.latimes.com/archives/la-
| xpm-1994-10-29-me-56060-... that she gave to her children
| what they desired and then auctioned the rest to charity
| (one can imagine that wasn't necessarily this church).
| tshaddox wrote:
| There is no shortage of cults that establish a hierarchy with
| different levels of exclusivity.
| Thorrez wrote:
| I'm wondering what the hierarchy like that is here. There
| seem to just be 2 levels here: lay Catholic and Carmelite
| nun. Would the entire Catholic Church be a cult? It doesn't
| have the "gave them all her money" or "kept her behind
| bars" aspects that FounderBurr mentioned.
| iammisc wrote:
| > So she gave them all her money and they kept her behind bars
| for the rest of her life. How is this not a cult?
|
| Because she could leave if she wanted to? Nuns leave somewhat
| frequently (so do priests). No one is stopping them.
|
| The idea of giving all your stuff away to follow God is
| something people choose willingly.
| [deleted]
| ekianjo wrote:
| > they kept her behind bars for the rest of her life
|
| You are assuming she had no choice to leave.
| [deleted]
| draw_down wrote:
| Well, what's a cult? A cult is a group you don't like.
| dctoedt wrote:
| I feel a little bit sorry for the woman's kids and grandkids,
| because having nearby grandparents, and specifically
| grandmothers, in your life seems to confer certain advantages in
| natural selection. [0]
|
| Just this morning my wife and I were talking, almost excitedly,
| about what our last "job" will be: Helping to raise our
| grandkids, if and when we have any (in the not-too-distant
| future, perhaps).
|
| - In the grandkids' infancy: Doing lots of playing, talking,
| laughing, reading to them, and other interaction with the little
| buggers, to help their brains develop.
|
| - From their births onward: Being sources of patient, calm,
| unqualified love, taking delight in their mere existence (but
| always deferring to their parents). Giving their parents a break
| in childcare duties from time to time.
|
| And of course your own kids are your kids forever. My parents and
| in-laws are long gone, yet even now I sometimes catch myself
| thinking, _hmm, I should ask Mom and Dad about that_. My wife has
| said much the same thing. We both want to be around for our own
| kids for as long as we 're able and not a burden.
|
| We're both _really_ looking forward to being grandparents. It
| gives us a(nother) reason to continue eating right and getting
| lots of exercise to stay in shape: We want to be physically up to
| the task for as long as we can manage it.
|
| [0]
| https://www.npr.org/sections/goatsandsoda/2019/02/07/6920883...
| premium-komodo wrote:
| From what I understand, the Carmelites differ from some other
| Christians because they do long contemplations. I often wonder if
| their contemplations are basically the same thing as my
| (Buddhist) meditation. I suspect they are, but that we just have
| different metaphors about what's happening. Anyone interested in
| this possible overlap between Christianity and Buddhism might
| check out the videos of John Butler, an English man who has
| contemplated/meditated for decades.
| DavidPeiffer wrote:
| Here's a similar, more recent story about a banker turned nun.
| Good listen if you have some time.
|
| https://www.wnycstudios.org/podcasts/deathsexmoney/episodes/...
| user3939382 wrote:
| The Jesuit Guide to Almost Everything by James Martin is
| autobiographical and tells about his experience going from a
| Wharton MBA, accountant at GE making a lot of money to becoming
| a priest; sitting in a hot room in Haiti with bugs inside to
| take care of the sick and poor.
|
| It really hit home with me because it was my dream to get a
| Wharton MBA. Then he says his balance would be higher at the
| ATM every week but it felt very meaningless. There's also an
| interesting side story about the psychopaths (my word) in
| management at GE.
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