[HN Gopher] Heart inflammation cases in young men higher than ex...
___________________________________________________________________
Heart inflammation cases in young men higher than expected after
mRNA vaccines
Author : smaili
Score : 309 points
Date : 2021-06-10 18:19 UTC (4 hours ago)
(HTM) web link (www.reuters.com)
(TXT) w3m dump (www.reuters.com)
| kybernetyk wrote:
| This means it's working.
| seaman1921 wrote:
| the point is - it should be studied whether this is causing any
| permanent heart damage
| JPKab wrote:
| My mother-in-law died 9 days ago, after being on life-support for
| 2 weeks. All following a sudden onset cardiac arrest 3 hours
| after getting her second Pfizer shot. She had a fever from the
| shot, was sitting in the living room watching a movie with
| family, and her heart suddenly stopped. She was healthy and in
| her early 60's. The medical team, after a week, concluded it was
| likely vaccine induced, and reported it to VAERS.
|
| A neighbor of mine, who is 35 year old male, had an almost
| exactly similar event. Because he was younger, he survived. His
| medical team also reported to VAERS, and the Mayo clinic is
| researching it.
|
| The vaccine is generally safe, and you should get it if you
| aren't immune to COVID. That being said, the effort to prevent
| vaccine hesitancy has suppressed media reporting on these events,
| understandably. They are likely more common than we think, but
| still relatively rare.
|
| MRNA is going to be a revolutionary technology, but we should be
| honest about the fact that there are going to be some individuals
| who will experience some extremely nasty side-effects.
| myfavoritedog wrote:
| Yep. I know of at least five stroke or adverse heart events in
| my social circle or one hop out, all had been vaccinated
| recently.
|
| Like you, I maintain that it's still a lesser risk than
| COVID... but there seems to be a lot of media/political
| pushback to just acknowledging the possibility of vaccine
| problems.
| throwkeep wrote:
| > That being said, the effort to prevent vaccine hesitancy has
| suppressed media reporting on these events, understandably.
|
| This works with toddlers, but not with adults. Suppressing
| information ultimately leads to less trust, more hesitancy and
| more conspiracy theories (they were hiding X, what else are
| they hiding?). It's better to be transparent from the start.
| cronix wrote:
| Dr. Bret Weinstein, Dr. Robert Malone (invented mRNA tech) and
| Steve Kirsch had a most fascinating discussion on youtube that
| touches on this, but touches on much bigger direct and indirect
| issues as well. I'd urge people to watch:
| https://youtu.be/-_NNTVJzqtY?t=591
| briefcomment wrote:
| This was worthwhile. Not sure why you're being downvoted.
| beefman wrote:
| This is based on VAERS data. I encourage the curious to look at
| this data. I did. I would characterize its quality as so poor
| that probably no conclusions at all can be drawn from it. And I
| usually find myself defending the use of noisy and/or small data
| in similar situations.
| jb775 wrote:
| So instead of wanting to look into a possible major issue with
| the safety of the Covid vaccines, you'd rather insult the data
| without providing any substantiating source, then put your
| hands over your ears and say "LA LA LA LA I CAN'T HEAR YOUUUUU
| LA LA LA LA"
| notjes wrote:
| Covid-19 is meticulously measured and tracked in every human
| being, but no one is interested in adverse vaccine effects.
| Things that make you think...
| codyb wrote:
| No one's interested in adverse vaccine side effects?
|
| That seems rather counter to my impression which is based on
| the number of adults who're hesitant and the fact that FDA
| halted use of Johnson and Johnson vaccines once already and
| Europe has had it's own fair share of hand wringing about the
| Astro-Zeneca vaccine.
| seattle_spring wrote:
| Agreed with your observation. Every news source has been
| brimming with stories on potential adverse reactions as
| they are discovered, including ones that I'm sure GP would
| dismiss as "MSM" or "the radical left." The reality is that
| all current evidence suggests the virus is still far worse
| than any vaccine side effects.
| bena wrote:
| I mean, look at the guy's hyperbolic rhetoric. He's not
| interested in any discussion in which he might have to
| confront the fact that he is wrong.
| Fomite wrote:
| Working with data from monitoring vaccine side effects were
| two of my early projects in graduate school. They are
| _intensely_ monitored - vaccine data is some of the best
| quality data in the infectious disease world.
| walterbell wrote:
| _> Shimabukuro also said the Vaccine Safety Datalink (VSD) -
| another safety monitoring system - showed an increased
| incidence of heart inflammation in 16 to 39 year olds after
| their second shot when compared to the rate observed after the
| first dose._
|
| https://www.cdc.gov/vaccinesafety/ensuringsafety/monitoring/...
|
| _> The Vaccine Safety Datalink (VSD) is a collaborative
| project between CDC's Immunization Safety Office and nine
| health care organizations. The VSD started in 1990 and
| continues today in order to monitor safety of vaccines and
| conduct studies about rare and serious adverse events following
| immunization._
|
| The nine HMOs are: Kaiser Permanente
| Washington, Seattle, WA Harvard Pilgrim Health Care
| Institute, Boston, MA HealthPartners Institute,
| Minneapolis, MN Kaiser Permanente Northwest, Portland, OR
| Kaiser Permanente Northern CA Kaiser Permanente CO
| Denver Health, CO Marshfield Clinic Research Institute,
| WI Kaiser Permanente Southern CA
| ezekg wrote:
| I've heard less than 1% of adverse reactions are actually
| reported to VAERS.
| larrywright wrote:
| I've heard this too, from anti-vaxxers mostly. VAERS is the
| medical equivalent of Yelp. Anyone can post anything there
| and looking at the unverified data is not a reliable
| indication of anything. And, anti-vaxxers have been known to
| go report things in order to bolster their arguments.
| bena wrote:
| Not to mention, people who parrot that extrapolation don't
| give the same sort of consideration in the other direction.
|
| Every assumption goes towards their preferred conspiracy.
| Kognito wrote:
| Yeah, how many people actually bother to report their
| symptoms if they're not serious enough to warrant a trip to
| the doctor (who might report on their behalf)?
|
| Mild myo can go undetected quite easily. In fact, it's known
| well as being a cause of death in young athletes who only
| learn of the condition when their heart gives out during
| intense physical exertion.
| notjes wrote:
| I am curious: Who reports that dude that died of a heart
| attack laying in a ditch somewhere.
| dahfizz wrote:
| Anecdotally, my girlfriend got the moderna vaccine and got
| pretty bad skin rashes from it. She went to report it
| through a link her provider sent her, but the website would
| not allow her to report any side effects because it had
| been longer than 48 hours since her shot.
| Fomite wrote:
| The...stunning mediocrity of VAERS data is in the "it is known"
| category, and has been since well before I started graduate
| school. It's important because it's useful for emergent self-
| reported issues, but there's a reason the concept of post-
| licensure trials exist.
| shadowgovt wrote:
| VAERS is a clearinghouse. It's a vital tool for finding
| evidence of possible unexpected interactions that should be
| investigated, but it's basically textbook "correlations that do
| not imply causation" data.
|
| The _most_ a correlation in VAERS, by itself, should ever
| generate is a "huh, that's interesting" reaction and possibly
| a controlled follow-up study. HHS has a very large disclaimer
| on the dataset's description (https://vaers.hhs.gov/data.html).
|
| The data is also, at this phase of collection, unfiltered and
| unverified. Self-reporting biases and simple mistakes are a
| known concern. There's a relatively famous story of someone, as
| a sanity-check on the process, reporting that a flu vaccine had
| turned them into the Incredible Hulk.
| https://web.archive.org/web/20130419004549/http://neurodiver...
| DaniloDias wrote:
| What is the right way to collect this data, given that the
| frontline practitioners are actively discouraging any patients
| from making a connection for adverse reactions with the
| vaccine?
|
| Put another way: Isn't VAERS a necessary solution to ensure
| that the healthcare system does not misrepresent the safety of
| the vaccines? Transparency should be a first principle
| requirement for science.
| smhenderson wrote:
| _given that the frontline practitioners are actively
| discouraging any patients from making a connection for
| adverse reactions with the vaccine?_
|
| Do you have a source for this? As another poster replied, I
| was encouraged to report symptoms and given a packet with
| information on what to look out for, what to report and a
| website to do so.
|
| Same with my wife and two adult children.
| DaniloDias wrote:
| Sources are first hand- sorry. Don't have documentation to
| point to. Know of a two healthy people who were diagnosed
| with diabetes within a couple days of the second shot.
|
| Apparently this phenomenon is known for actual covid
| sufferers.
|
| https://wexnermedical.osu.edu/blog/why-are-people-
| developing...
| mypalmike wrote:
| I was also encouraged to report symptoms (or lack thereof)
| through a website. Unfortunately the website was thoroughly
| broken and I was unable to do so.
| smhenderson wrote:
| I'll admit I did not even attempt to report anything. I
| didn't have any meaningful symptoms after my first shot
| (Moderna) and the symptoms I had after the second were
| pretty bad but also everything I expected based on what I
| heard from others. Chills, muscle aches, typical flu-like
| symptoms that lasted just about 24 hours.
|
| So I can't speak to the quality of any websites. But I do
| not recall anyone before the parent comment saying they
| were actively discouraged by health workers to not report
| symptoms.
| Fomite wrote:
| The answer is a Phase IV clinical trial, which a number of
| vaccines have undergone post-approval and I suspect the
| COVID-19 vaccines will as well.
| DaniloDias wrote:
| Does the fact that the major vaccine vendors are
| encouraging placebo recipients to be notified about their
| receipt of a placebo, plus encouragement that they go get
| the vaccine affect your confidence in the trial process for
| this vaccine?
|
| https://www.npr.org/sections/health-
| shots/2021/02/19/9691430...
|
| "According to Pfizer-BioNTech and Moderna, interim analyses
| after approximately 2 months of follow-up suggest their
| vaccines are 90% to 95% effective at preventing SARS-CoV-2
| infection, although no peer review of the data has been
| conducted to date. Both companies now claim they have an
| "ethical obligation" to offer vaccine as soon as possible
| to all participants who received placebo, considering the
| strong results and participants' contribution to the
| research."
| dv_dt wrote:
| After both doses of my vaccine I was given a link and
| instructions how to report adverse reactions.
| jb775 wrote:
| By the looks of it, you should keep that handy.
| dv_dt wrote:
| I'm a few weeks past the most likely time period for this
| to show up, and I can Google so not too worried about
| keeping it handy. If you do have symptoms I'd contact my
| regular doctor first anyway.
| tchvil wrote:
| When looking about heart inflammation, some Youtube videos popped
| up.
|
| A UK doctor talking about heart inflammation of young men in
| Israel a month ago, and an update two weeks ago:
| https://youtu.be/uw2xmtd8dkA
| malwarebytess wrote:
| Something I wonder about:
|
| What if inflammation like this is common in many illnesses and
| simply goes undetected? A previously unseen symptom because no
| one was paying attention and small illnesses like colds don't
| receive the level of scrutiny that Covid-19 received.
| phantom784 wrote:
| Wouldn't the control group have the same level of inflammation
| in that case?
| [deleted]
| raydev wrote:
| Crazy coincidence. I'm in my late 30s, now 3 days out from my
| first dose of Pfizer.
|
| I woke up kinda uncomfortable today. Like I'd already had too
| much coffee just getting out of bed. Within an hour I felt
| significanty stressed, and I had vague pressure throughout my
| upper chest, both sides. I was convinced it was my first ever
| panic attack since it didn't feel like a life ending threat.
|
| No acute or vague pains either. My heart rate was elevated like I
| was currently on a pleasant walk (I was laying on the floor
| wondering what to do). Apple Watch didn't think anything was
| worth alerting about.
|
| The peak of the "event" lasted about 20 minutes, and I went for
| an actual walk once I calmed down a bit. I felt comfortable
| enough to join my personal trainer for a pretty heavy workout a
| couple hours later. No issues during the workout, but a few hours
| post-workout now, I don't feel the usual calm/tired feeling.
| Still kinda feeling like I've had too much caffeine.
|
| I'm now wondering if this is what happened to me.
| yk wrote:
| Slightly off topic, but it is quite interesting that US media
| very consistently uses "Pfizer" if the news is good and some
| variant of "Pfizer/Biontec" if the news is bad. The opposite
| holds of course for the German press, which addresses the vaccine
| as "Biontec" when the news is good.
| rootusrootus wrote:
| My skept-o-meter is twitching. I'd have to see actual numbers
| backing that up, as it looks much more like confirmation bias
| to me.
| bonzini wrote:
| Somebody even made a copypasta about it in Italian. My
| translation is the following:
|
| "I'd just like to interject for a moment. What you're refering
| to as Pfizer vaccine, is in fact, the BioNTech-Pfizer vaccine,
| or as I've recently taken to calling it, BioNTech plus Pfizer
| vaccine. Pfizer did not develop the vaccine by itself, but
| rather another company called BioNTech created the original
| formula, which went through Pfizer's clinical trials and became
| the vaccine we use these days.
|
| Many people who got the vaccine refer to it as the Pfizer
| vaccine, without realizing it. Through a peculiar turn of
| events, the BioNTech-Pfizer vaccine which is widely used today
| is often called "Pfizer", and many of its users are not aware
| that it is basically the vaccine initially developed by
| BioNTech.
|
| There really is a Pfizer contribute to the vaccine, and these
| people should partly thank that corporation, but it is just a
| part of what allowed them to be vaccinated. Pfizer is the
| distributor and responsible for clinical trials. Clinical
| trials are an essential part of a vaccine, but useless by
| itself; they can only be done once somebody developed the
| vaccine in the first place. So, the Pfizer vaccine can only be
| used because it was developed in the first place by BioNTech:
| the whole system is basically BioNTech with Pfizer
| contributions, or BioNTech/Pfizer. The so-called Pfizer vaccine
| should really be called BioNTech/Pfizer!"
| skocznymroczny wrote:
| In case someone has never heard it before, above is a variant
| of "Stallman GNU/Linux copypasta"
| dependsontheq wrote:
| Watching the various vaccines fail in production or in
| clinical trials gives an interesting perspective on what an
| amazing and lucky combination BioNTech/Pfizer are. So I think
| we should be grateful for both companies, amazing scientists
| and amazing engineers.
| Fomite wrote:
| The speed and effectiveness are astounding. I was braced
| this fall for "It's probably worthwhile for high risk
| individuals" effectiveness metrics in the 50%'s.
| peanut_worm wrote:
| Did anyone else get really bad side effects? I felt awful after
| my first shot and now I an currently recovering from my second
| shot and feel even worse. I don't think I have ever felt this bad
| from an illness.
| JPKab wrote:
| There is a relatively high rate (fully acknowledged) of high
| fever from the MRNA vaccines, particularly after the second
| dose. Compared to standard vaccines of the past, the rate of
| fever and illness is dramatically higher. But COVID is so
| dangerous and contagious that the benefit is higher than the
| cost.
|
| I say this as somebody (if you look at some of my previous
| comments) who lost my Mother-in-law due to a rare side-effect
| that is still being researched after her second shot.
| Fomite wrote:
| Note it depends on which "standardized vaccines of the past"
| you mean. The side effects for the smallpox vaccine were
| horrific by modern standards.
| JPKab wrote:
| Excellent point. And I would have innoculated every single
| one of my kids in a heartbeat, knowing the risks, because
| smallpox is such a vicious disease.
| Izkata wrote:
| > But COVID is so dangerous
|
| It's only a little worse than the yearly flu, and heavily
| weighted towards old age (unlike the flu which badly affects
| all ages).
|
| > and contagious
|
| Yeah, that's much higher, which is why the absolute numbers
| look so bad.
| ostenning wrote:
| It's alarming that I keep hearing about people who have lost
| people from a vaccine. It's now at a higher rate than the
| virus itself. I'm awaiting Pfizer but I'm quite concerned.
|
| Which vaccine did she take?
| JPKab wrote:
| I want to emphasize that these events are rare, although
| probably not as rare as you we think, and that I recommend
| to people to get vaccinated.
|
| That being said, I don't know a single person personally (I
| live in Colorado, with lots of family and friends in
| Virginia,NC, and DC) that has died or been hospitalized for
| COVID, and I happen to know 2 people who suffered cardiac
| arrest from the Pfizer vaccine, with one (my MIL) dead. The
| other person is a prominent technologist and former
| Googler, and he suffered several heart attacks in the
| hospital after his cardiac arrest. Both were in the midst
| of a post 2nd shot fever a few hours later when the
| incidents happened.
|
| It should be noted that my experience is anecdotal, and if
| I lived in NYC, I would certainly know several people
| hospitalized/dead of COVID. COVID is a very scary virus in
| the sense that it can cause us to let our guard down. Why?
| Because of viral load. If you are exposed to a single
| person with it, your illness will probably not be severe,
| but if you and dozens of others get on a subway car, sick
| with covid, a person getting that fat viral load is far
| more in danger.
|
| My primary issue with the way my MIL and my friend were
| handled with their vaccine induced cardiac arrests was the
| way the doctors initially (for roughly a week with both, in
| separate hospital in separate states) gaslit the families
| and wouldn't even discuss the vaccine being AT ALL RELATED.
| It was blatantly obvious to us that they were following PR
| playbooks either forced on them from their employers and/or
| medical licensing boards. The utter and obvious lack of any
| form of curiosity was the biggest tell.
|
| We can't talk about what happened on social media, at all.
| It gets deleted and flagged as "misinformation" and
| "encouraging vaccine hesitancy". The private censorship
| regime is clumsy, and run/moderated by people who don't
| seem to understand nuance or respect the intelligence of
| the public. The result of this?
|
| My wife's sister and her husband, who until the incident
| were NPR listening liberals who were excessive in their
| obedience to public health authorities, are now listening
| to fucking Alex Jones. They weren't able to vent their
| anger and grief or get any information from the normal
| spaces, and have lost ALL trust of public health
| authorities. It's horrible to watch, and I"m doing my best
| to try to keep them grounded as they grieve. They were all
| in the room when the cardiac arrest happened, and it was
| very traumatic for them. The denials and gaslighting of the
| medical staff compounded the issue. (At one point, a doctor
| insisted my MIL had choked. When told they weren't eating,
| he insisted that she must have snuck off to get food and
| sat back down while chewing. Imagine what it was like to
| hear that idiocy for them)
|
| For those of you clamoring for censhorship, ask yourself if
| my in-laws now becoming Alex Jones listeners was a positive
| effect of this regime we encouraged to form after Trump's
| election?
| ostenning wrote:
| Thanks for the detailed response.
|
| I feel for your family. That's a difficult situation to
| deal with, and the marginalisation from society could
| only make it worse.
|
| We need to be extremely critical and honest with our
| medicines, gas lighting should never happen in what is
| suppose to be an objective and unpolitical profession.
| poulsbohemian wrote:
| FWIW: I had covid over a two week period. It was easily the
| sickest I've ever been. I just got my second shot yesterday and
| I'd say both shots were like covid-lite. Basically all the same
| symptoms, just condensed into a 24-48 hour block and at not
| quite as bad.
| Izkata wrote:
| It's a thing: https://old.reddit.com/r/CovidVaccinated/
| macawfish wrote:
| I had headaches for like two weeks after my second Pfizer shot.
| I drank plenty of water and was getting electrolytes, so I'm
| guessing it was a side effect.
| post_break wrote:
| Had both covid and 2 shots. Covid was the most pain I've ever
| felt in my entire life. I thought I was going to die. And I'm
| "young". The shots were like the kiddie ride version of it.
| Still felt bad but man, I wish I could have had that over
| covid.
| _Microft wrote:
| The interesting table with absolute numbers is on page 18 of [0].
| Expected and observed cases are cases of myocarditis /
| pericarditis here. Crude rate is the number of cases per 1
| million administered doses. Use landscape mode if you are reading
| this from a mobile device, the table is narrow enough for that.
| Age group Doses Crude Expected Observed
| administ. rate cases cases 12-15 yrs
| 134,041 22.4 0-1 2 16-17 yrs 2,258,932
| 35.0 2-19 79 18-24 yrs 9,776,719 20.6 8-83
| 196
|
| [0] (PDF) https://www.fda.gov/media/150054/download
| sudoaza wrote:
| That's about the same rate as clots in AstraZeneca's vaccine.
| onlyrealcuzzo wrote:
| So if I'm reading this correctly - that means about 1 in
| 90,000 people are getting myocarditis that otherwise you
| wouldn't expect to get myocarditis from the vaccine.
|
| Is that correct, and if so, is that a big deal?
| jb775 wrote:
| But this is only reported cases. Most people wouldn't report
| even if they had symptoms. Others could be impacted without
| currently having symptoms.
|
| Now prop this data of _actual_ medical conditions created as a
| result of getting the covid vaccine up against the likelihood
| of getting covid in the first place, and the likelihood of
| having lifelong side effects as a result of getting covid. Risk
| of getting an experimental vaccine _substantially_ outweighs
| the reward of the "protection" it provides.
| nosianu wrote:
| Not sure why teh parent post got downvoted - we have plenty
| of examples right here in the various sub threads of people
| telling us exactly that. Almost none of all those who wrote a
| comment with their own anecdote seem to have reported it,
| many only realizing that there even is anything worth
| reporting after reading this discussion right here.
|
| For most people it is perfectly normal not to report anything
| unless it's bad enough that they have to see a doctor. Most
| people already expect some side effects for a few days since
| we've been told to expect it, for anyone following the media.
|
| A statement about under-reporting is not automatically "anti-
| vax".
| mopsi wrote:
| > _For most people it is perfectly normal not to report
| anything unless it 's bad enough that they have to see a
| doctor._
|
| This is exactly what's making me restless. Young men are
| the least likely group to see a doctor unless it's really
| bad. Thus the official statistics may be severely
| underreporting the real situation.
| delecti wrote:
| Crude rate seems to be observed cases per million doses
| administered.
|
| So a lot more incidents than expected, but still extremely rare
| (0.002% of doses).
|
| Edit: missed an extra "0" in that percent, thanks for the the
| catch everyone who did
| [deleted]
| pama wrote:
| You mean 0.002% not 0.02%
| Swenrekcah wrote:
| For those getting worried like I was, it's 0.002% or one in
| 50,000, not 0.02% or one in 5,000.
| Kognito wrote:
| I don't have the exact figures to hand but a rough googling
| seems to suggest a 1 in 100k risk for clotting in the AZ
| vaccine for young adults which of course, in many countries
| has been withdrawn for such rates in those groups.
|
| https://www.theguardian.com/theobserver/commentisfree/2021/
| a...
| iso1210 wrote:
| I think in general percentages less than 0.1% should be
| reported as "1-in-XXX". Certainly when I create pages to
| measure packet loss I put 1 in 50,000 rather than 0.002%
| penagwin wrote:
| As a data oriented person I would prefer if the
| percentage is always available, otherwise I have to
| calculate it to use with other numbers.
|
| For example: (chance of getting covid) * (chance of
| specific side effect) = chance of getting covid and
| experiencing side effect.
| tomp wrote:
| All percentages should be reported as "1-in-XXX".
|
| The difference (in "certainty", not "risk") between 90%
| (1-in-10) and 95% (1-in-20) is the same as the difference
| between 98% (1-in-50) and 99% (1-in-100).
| b0tzzzzzzman wrote:
| Yes, let's all look at statistics and not recognize these
| are real people who are developing heart damage from 'safe'
| vaccines.
| pfg wrote:
| A 0.002% risk of experiencing myocarditis due to the
| vaccine seems a better deal than catching COVID, which
| brings a ~0.3% risk of experiencing (symptomatic)
| myocarditis in a (to my non-expert understanding) similar
| demographic[1]. Many experts assume COVID will become
| endemic, so this is not a theoretical risk.
|
| [1]: https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jamacardiology/full
| article/...
| xvector wrote:
| As jb775 said, most cases simply won't be reported. I
| wouldn't be surprised if the actual rate is 10-50x higher.
| _Microft wrote:
| Thanks! It also says that in the footnote. I added it to the
| comment.
| thebean11 wrote:
| But it's only been a few months since administration, will
| the gap between expected and actual keep growing, or will
| they eventually level out?
| delecti wrote:
| Considering it mentions this is showing up within 1 week of
| administration, and there are already millions of "doses
| administered" accounted for in the figures, I wouldn't
| expect the rate to change significantly either way. I'm not
| a statistician though.
| lame-robot-hoax wrote:
| Any information on the rate of myocarditis after vaccination vs
| myocarditis after infection?
| sudoaza wrote:
| Maybe has to do with testing it on healthy people who doesn't
| represent general population?
| Jolter wrote:
| It's just too rare to pop up in the studies, even if n=30000
| splithalf wrote:
| We've known this for a month or so. The bottom line is that
| experts still recommend getting the vaccine.
| breadzeppelin__ wrote:
| meanwhile the many experts who don't recommend it are widely
| and very vocally shunned as 'science deniers'.
|
| Andddd downvoted. Cant even point out that there are actual
| experts on both sides of the argument without people being
| upset about it.
| Workaccount2 wrote:
| I'm pretty sure you can still dig up climate scientists that
| deny global warming.
|
| Playing the "both sides" argument implies a coin or card,
| where both sides are equal. In reality this argument is
| played by people who know their side is dwarfed but want to
| project legitimacy.
| seattle_spring wrote:
| Given everything we know about the virus and the vaccines,
| that seems like an appropriate label.
|
| > Andddd downvoted. Cant even point out that there are actual
| experts on both sides of the argument without people being
| upset about it
|
| I doubt anyone who downvoted you is "upset."
| version_five wrote:
| I certainly don't agree with "denier" type labeling. But I
| would be as wary of someone who councils people not to get
| vaccinated as I am of people who pretend unequivocally that
| there is no risk to it.
|
| Personally, I feel like there has been an escalation where
| some have been so adamant that it is perfectly safe, that
| others jump on ultra-rare side-effects as evidence that it's
| not.
| tomtheelder wrote:
| There will be experts, that is people with relevant
| credentials, on both sides of every issue, but that doesn't
| mean they always ought to be listened to. They are being
| heavily criticized here because the science _overwhelmingly_
| supports vaccination.
| Growling_owl wrote:
| > science _overwhelmingly_ supports vaccination
|
| Not to be pedantic about it, but science always, and in any
| event supports non vaccination for self and everybody else
| vaccinating instead.
|
| This is true for every disease. If possible it's always
| smart not to inject yourself with stuff.
|
| They just can't say it because then everybody would try and
| be the last person to get the shot, because the last one
| gets to skip the shot!
| mustacheemperor wrote:
| >This is true for every disease. If possible it's always
| smart not to inject yourself with stuff.
|
| Maybe in a vacuum where everyone else around you is
| guaranteed to get the shot, but based on what I saw from
| friends and family who contracted COVID, what I've read
| about its long term effects, and the ongoing uptake of
| the vaccine I would not say the science inclines me to
| take my chances without immunity.
| [deleted]
| rogers18445 wrote:
| The doses of mRNA they are giving are probably too high, but due
| to bureaucracy and liability no one is going to go out on a limb
| and recommend lowering them - since this isn't based on the
| trials and risks lowering immunity.
|
| The obvious hypothesis is that some mRNA escapes the
| intramuscular spaces and goes into the blood where it then makes
| it into the heart and "helpfully" teaches heart cells how to make
| spike protein, agitating the immune system to the heart. Note
| that a vaccine is a bolus dose of spike protein, you are unlikely
| to get a viral load from the actual virus to equal it - for a
| young person perhaps not even in the course of the progression of
| the illness.
|
| If I get my second dose at all it won't be mRNA.
| splithalf wrote:
| Hope they controlled for vaping.
| drummer wrote:
| One has to be absolutely stupid to get poisoned with this crap to
| 'protect' against what is essentially a flu.
| UncleOxidant wrote:
| Seems like maybe we should be recommending the J&J vaccine for
| men under about 35 and the mRNA vaccines for women in that age
| group.
| notjes wrote:
| So if booster shots are required, will we go through this ordeal
| like every 12 month until what?
| skwb wrote:
| "cardiac MRI which is not always widely available". This is
| mainly because the views of the heart are super hard to get
| (exams are done mostly at specialized centers like Stanford)!
|
| I actually ended up doing my PhD on automating the cardiac view
| planes using deep learning.
| tediousdemise wrote:
| I got J&J even after the negative coverage. It uses the same
| delivery method (a modified adenovirus) as the vaccine used in
| China, which has already been tested on billions of people. I was
| skeptical about the mRNA mechanism of action from the start.
|
| I wonder how much our lifespans will be reduced by these
| vaccines?
| ailun wrote:
| Which Chinese vaccine are you talking about? The two common
| ones are Sinovac and Sinopharm; neither uses a modified
| adenovirus. Also, neither of them have been taken by billions
| of people.
| arriu wrote:
| Has anyone looked at whether the mental stress or anxiety induced
| by putting someone through the process of getting the shot could
| be maybe be a reason for triggering this? Not the vaccine itself,
| but the whole routine of line up, answer questions about
| allergies and other risk factors, then waiting to get the shot,
| then having to sit there waiting for symptoms to show up... Not
| to mention people don't like needles either.
|
| I can imagine the heart rate during this ordeal is way higher
| than normal and could trigger inflammation.
|
| Not saying that the science here is invalid, just actually
| curious to know how this gets ruled out.
| arriu wrote:
| What's up with the down votes...
|
| It is a legitimate question. People get heart inflammation from
| things like court visits.
|
| If you know something then please share.
| version_five wrote:
| I didn't vote on your post, but I did read it earlier and
| found it a bit silly. "White coat" syndrome- getting nervous
| going to the doctor or for medical things, is definitely
| real. I have it too. I always have a hard time getting my
| blood pressure checked because I get so involuntarily
| aggravated by the whole thing. And there are definitely
| people afraid of needles. But (nearly) everyone has various
| vaccinations during life, and it feels implausible that
| you've identified some special new condition people are
| getting (that in this case was already expected and is just
| higher) that is specific to these vaccine based on stress
| instead of the known rare response of the body.
| arriu wrote:
| I don't think it's enough to say people get vaccinated and
| we didn't see this in the past. This is quite different.
| Many people are afraid of _this_ vaccine more than others
| in the past. I 've had countless arguments with family
| trying to convince them it's okay. Their arguments are A)
| it's mRNA, which is new... And B) they argue it was rushed.
|
| I can't help but think about how someone with that mental
| state would feel while in the waiting room.
| chippy wrote:
| The placebo / nocebo effect is real. If people think they will
| feel good after taking something many of them will do and if
| people think they might get sick taking something, then many of
| them will do.
| jb775 wrote:
| The crazy thing about this is even if 75% of people who got the
| vaccine dropped dead tomorrow, the other 25% would still be
| _convinced_ it had absolutely nothing to do with the vaccine.
| Flatcircle wrote:
| May wife got severe joint pain like arthritis across both arms
| and in other parts of her body after the Pfizer vax. She's
| getting several tests done and has been doing physical therapy.
| It was several months ago and it doesn't seem to be getting
| better.
|
| Her PT said she's been seeing lots of these.
|
| She never had covid. I hope she gets better, it's been really
| difficult.
| dQw4w9WgXcQ wrote:
| Have her get blood work for various inflammation and fatigue
| markers like TSH/FT4/FT3, CBCs, Iron, TIBC, Serum Ferritin,
| VitD, IL-6, (etc) for a sanity check.
|
| Some of it can simply be stress/anxiety which - if not managed
| - accumulates as whatever condition emotionally feels like it
| is "not resolving" and produces similar symptoms. If everything
| checks out, stuff like Omega3s, VitD, Glucosamine, Chondroitin
| and a good 3-4 week vacation to unwind are all greatly
| associated with reducing chronic inflammation.
|
| I think the challenge we're all facing is Dr's are so
| overwhelmed with all these "inflammatory"-type conditions where
| some stuff can slip under the radar but they're all inclined to
| blame it on anxiety/depression. COVID has been a sneaky fucker
| wrt asymptomatic infections.
|
| The best thing you can do is take as many stressors off the
| plate and give it 6-9 months. Better 6-9 months off than a
| lifetime of wading thru chronic issues.
| Offpics wrote:
| 8 months ago I developed severe pain, burning and stiffness in
| hands. Then it went to the legs and finnaly to the whole body.
| It got to a point where I was bedridden and couldnt eat on my
| own. All of my energy was put into seeing doctors and doing
| labs tests wich all turned out negative. I was doing PT and
| pain killers but they were innefective. Finally, I got a
| meeting with a rheumatologist that said its fibromyalgia. There
| are no lab tests to prove fibro diagnosis so Im still not sure
| about this and I suspect it may be a covid sideffect. Luckily
| fluoxetin helped me to be back in life, overtime it modify
| brain to reduce the threshold pain in a soft tissue. Covid
| damages nerve cells in the soft tissue (thats why people lose
| smell or even has body pains) so the dots are connecting. I
| hope your wife will get better, I know how hard it is for a
| whole family. Normally Im a lurker but who knows, maybe this
| reply will help with your situation.
| chronolitus wrote:
| I definitely had this: got the first shot and felt confident,
| cocksure that I would have no symptoms at all being healthy and
| young. Woke up during the night ~8 hours after the first shot
| feeling a little out of breath, with strong and almost painful
| heartbeats. I chalked it up to being stressed, but found it
| strange as I had zero reasons to be stressed that particular
| week. I connected the dots the next day when I still had this
| feeling, and talked to a doctor in the family who said it was
| probably heart inflammation, and actually not that uncommon after
| the vaccine or covid infection.
|
| I'm still glad I got vaccinated, but given that heart disease is
| the #1 cause of death worldwide, I'm surprised the ramifications
| of heart inflammation aren't taken more seriously (if the heart
| was permanently damaged in a small way, I'd expect it to manifest
| many years later).
| AndrewBissell wrote:
| The response to this, of course, will be "well the risks of the
| virus are still higher than those of the vaccine so you should
| still get it," but I think that misses an important point here.
| In the absence of long-term safety data on these vaccines, we
| have engaged in _a priori_ deduction instead: "there's no known
| mechanism by which mRNA could cause any complications, so it
| should be fine." The appearance of any significantly higher than
| expected rate of complications potentially calls that reasoning
| into question.
| thenaturalist wrote:
| I suggest your interpretation of such reasoning is
| questionable? I would posit any serious medical and or
| regulatory body is fully aware that an absolute statement like
| "no known mechanism" resulting in complications isn't worth
| much in the face of highly complex and sometimes still little
| understood mammal bio-chemistry?
|
| What can be asserted with confidence though, is that in the
| presence of vaccines, severe effects of a infectious disease
| like COVID are significantly reduced - to the great benefit of
| the health system and society overall - and that, due to the
| quite different biological responses to vaccine vs. actual
| infection, severe effects in general are reduced massively. See
| lame-robot-hoax's comments.
|
| Nothing in life and certainly with regards to COVID is entirely
| risk free.
| briefcomment wrote:
| > "to the great benefit of the health system and society
| overall"
|
| I don't think we can say anything about what the net effect
| will be, seeing as the mRNA vaccines are novel in significant
| ways.
| Aaronstotle wrote:
| After reading various comments here, I think I might have
| experienced this after my first dose (Moderna). Noticed some
| slight chest pain the day after during my ride and my heart rate
| was about 10bpm higher than normal.
|
| Never had any noticeable symptoms after, please take this with a
| grain of salt because I do cycle a lot (~2-400 miles a month) and
| I'm not representative of the general population.
| antattack wrote:
| I think that many people who did not have heart issues before
| don't know what to look for or how it feels.
|
| Personally, I did not know I had palpitations until I googled it
| later. Similarly, I suspect, that some kids/young adults may have
| had symptoms but don't report.
| habibur wrote:
| That can be covered by double blind tests.
| majormajor wrote:
| This would be reflected in the "expected rate" data that we
| compare against, though, right? Many people who naturally have
| an episode wouldn't ever see a doctor...
| licnep wrote:
| Pretty sure i had this after my second dose of moderna. On the
| day of my second dose I had a very unique piercing heart pain i
| never experienced before, thought i was gonna die. Had some
| arrhythmia/palpitations as well, but didn't go to the doctor or
| report it, I'm sure many more people experienced this without
| reporting it, just hope it doesn't cause permanent damage. (31,
| male)
| Kognito wrote:
| Very interesting given one of the lesser known complications of
| covid can be myocarditis in otherwise healthy individuals with
| few or no other covid symptoms.
|
| In fact, it's likely the incidence of covid-induced myocarditis
| is vastly underreported given it often shows no symptoms and can
| only reasonably be diagnosed with a cardiac MRI which is not
| always widely available or advised for less-serious heart
| conditions.
|
| I was diagnosed with myocarditis last year and despite a negative
| PCR test around the onset of symptoms (light-headedness, heart
| palpitations, fatigue) was strongly suspected to have contracted
| covid.
|
| I was lucky enough to get my first dose of the moderna vaccine a
| few months back and beside a few days of increased heart
| palpitations I've had no trouble as far as I'm aware, does make
| me wonder about getting that second dose though.
| newsclues wrote:
| The spike protein causes cellular damage, doesn't matter if it
| comes from the vaccine or virus
| lame-robot-hoax wrote:
| Yes, but the route in which a vaccination takes place (IM
| injection into deltoid) should mean that much much less of
| the spike protein ends up in the heart and lungs vs a natural
| infection. As well, the overall amount of spike protein in
| the body will be less.
|
| https://blogs.sciencemag.org/pipeline/archives/2021/05/04/sp.
| ..
|
| "Consider what happens when you're infected by the actual
| coronavirus. We know now that the huge majority of such
| infections are spread by inhalation of virus-laden droplets
| from other infected people, so the route of administration is
| via the nose and/or lungs, and the cells lining your airway
| are thus the first ones to get infected. The viral infection
| process leads at the end to lysis of the the host cell and
| subsequent dumping of a load of new viral particles - and
| these get dumped into the cellular neighborhood and into the
| bloodstream. They then have a clear shot at the endothelial
| cells lining the airway vasculature, which are the very focus
| of these two new papers.
|
| Compare this, though, to what happens in vaccination. The
| injection is intramuscular, not into the bloodstream. That's
| why a muscle like the deltoid is preferred, because it's a
| good target of thicker muscle tissue without any easily hit
| veins or arteries at the site of injection. The big surface
| vein in that region is the cephalic vein, and it's down along
| where the deltoid and pectoral muscles meet, not high up in
| the shoulder. In earlier animal model studies of mRNA
| vaccines, such administration was clearly preferred over a
| straight i.v. injection; the effects were much stronger. So
| the muscle cells around the injection are hit by the vaccine
| (whether mRNA-containing lipid nanoparticles or adenovirus
| vectors) while a good portion of the remaining dose is in the
| intercellular fluid and thus drains through the lymphatic
| system, not the bloodstream. That's what you want, since the
| lymph nodes are a major site of immune response. The draining
| lymph nodes for the deltoid are going to be the
| deltoid/pectoral ones where those two muscles meet, and the
| larger axillary lymph nodes down in the armpit on that side."
| motohagiography wrote:
| Does that imply that the difference in hitting a vein with
| the injection vs. staying intramuscular would be where in
| the body the protein travels to and causes an immune
| response?
|
| Nothing is ever that simple, but of cases with effects
| consistent with the protein being in the blood stream with
| consequences to the heart and brain, if that were a factor,
| it would be both testable and avoidable, and provide the
| explanation people would need to choose to get the shot. If
| the odds of accidentally hitting a vein and the bloodstream
| consequences as described lined up, it could move the issue
| forward.
|
| I have zero expertise in this area, my interest in asking
| is what would make a more compelling case for getting more
| people immune, and having a straightforward explanation for
| the causes of the prior reports of harm would go a long way
| toward that goal.
|
| Put another way: would injecting directly into an artery or
| vein have risks that the intramuscular jab would not - and
| do those risks resemble the anecdotal reports of myo,
| clots, and deaths?
| T-A wrote:
| It's been hypothesized that AstraZeneca's vaccine is more
| likely to cause clots when accidentally injected
| intravenously:
|
| https://www.sortiraparis.com/news/coronavirus/articles/24
| 662...
| rolph wrote:
| expect immediate and catastrophic thromboembolism upon IV
| administration of any current covid vaccine none of them
| are formulated for IV administration
|
| https://portal.ct.gov/-/media/Coronavirus/Community_Resou
| rce...
| osipov wrote:
| >The injection is intramuscular, not into the bloodstream.
|
| Recent research (per No Agenda shownotes) showed that
| unlike traditional vaccines, Moderna mRNA spread through
| the bloodstream producing and distributing spike protein in
| the entire body.
| lame-robot-hoax wrote:
| What do you mean by "spread through the bloodstream"?
|
| Of course even in an IM injection, some will end up in
| the blood stream. The better question is the overall
| amount that stays within the deltoid vs that that travels
| elsewhere, and how the compares to natural infection. How
| does the virus deposit itself around the body vs. how
| does the spike protein via vaccination deposit itself
| around the body. As well, with the way the vaccine works,
| once it hits a cell, that cell will express the spike
| protein to the surface and that's it, instead of
| contributing to further viral spread in the same region.
| newsclues wrote:
| "Should"
|
| Has it been tested?
| VoiceOfWisdom wrote:
| Its in testing right now.
| newsclues wrote:
| I'm listening to the livestream on Bret Weinstein's
| channel and they are discussing data that states the
| opposite including data that shows a concentration in the
| ovaries.
| lootsauce wrote:
| is this it? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tn_b4NRTB6k
| dekken_ wrote:
| https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-_NNTVJzqtY I would guess
| 0-_-0 wrote:
| This is the one
| lame-robot-hoax wrote:
| I'd be interested to see a source. I know of rat models
| that show a very small accumulation in ovaries, but these
| rats were afaik given doses in the range of 300x-1000x
| that of a human. And the accumulation in the ovaries or
| other regions was still incredibly small, despite the
| dosage given.
| 0-_-0 wrote:
| I'm listening to the same podcast. The source was Pfizer
| data obtained via Byram Bridle FOIA request, it was a
| Japanese study I think.
|
| edit: this one: https://files.catbox.moe/0vwcmj.pdf
|
| Here's the data in a plot:
|
| https://trialsitenews.com/wp-
| content/uploads/2021/06/Ovaries...
| [deleted]
| SamBam wrote:
| > As well, the overall amount of spike protein in the body
| will be less.
|
| Less that an acute infection, probably.
|
| Less than a mild asymptomatic infection? Do we know that?
| My understanding was that they packed quite a lot of mRNA
| into the shot in order to ensure a response.
| officialjunk wrote:
| infection is a spectrum, sure, but the public usage of
| the word "asymptomatic" does not include cardiovascular
| side effects, that can show up some weeks/months later.
|
| we are observing "asymptomatic" infections followed by
| cardiovascular problems for some. is it really
| asymptomatic in those cases?
| EMM_386 wrote:
| The human heart has a lot of ACE2 receptors, which is what
| Covid binds to.
|
| https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7239191/
|
| I wonder if you can get myocarditits both from exposure and the
| vaccine. Covid is in your heart tissue, triggering an immune
| response. When you get the vaccine, your immune system is going
| to ramp up even further to deal with this Covid in your heart.
| This would only affect people who had prior Covid exposure it
| would seem.
| Mountain_Skies wrote:
| Wonder if this will lead to an increase in pericarditis over
| the next couple of years. I had pericarditis when I was a
| teen. The explanation from the cardiologist, which probably
| was dumbed down for me, was that sometimes a foreign body
| like bacteria or a virus gets hidden in the lining of the
| heart and when it later gets exposed to the immune system, it
| causes the pericardium to get enflamed, which squeezes the
| heart. How long do spike proteins (SARS-CoV-2 or vaccine
| created) hang out if they make it to the heart? We probably
| don't know yet.
| EMM_386 wrote:
| > How long do spike proteins (SARS-CoV-2 or vaccine
| created) hang out if they make it to the heart?
|
| As far as I understand it, the vaccine doesn't work like
| this. It tells your immune system "hey this is what a SARS-
| CoV-2 spike protein looks like, attack it if you see it".
|
| So the vaccine wouldn't cause the heart damage, the vaccine
| does (intentionally) ramp up your immune system to learn
| about this new threat, which it will then attack. It
| doesn't bind to ACE2, it teaches your immune system to look
| for bad things that can.
|
| If there is still Covid in your heart due to prior
| exposure, your immune system is going to go there to
| assist. This would cause inflammation, but intentionally.
| As you noted, this immune system response is correct
| behavior.
|
| So that's a long way of saying the inflammation is from the
| virus, not the vaccine. That's why I was thinking this may
| only occur in vaccinated individuals who had prior exposure
| to Covid.
| sjg007 wrote:
| The covid spike protein binds ace2 so the immune response
| to bind the spike could bind ace2 as well. Normally this
| is mitigated by a self selection filter but it is not out
| of the question that you could develop an autoimmune
| response.
| loa_in_ wrote:
| There are two variants of the vaccine:
|
| One is mRNA (?) variant that gets into your cells and
| makes them produce just the spike protein. This lets your
| immune system find this protein out and make antibodies.
|
| The other contains instead a partially destroyed viruses
| which trains the immune system directly on all their
| parts - the shell, the spikes, etc.
|
| I don't remember which company makes which kind but both
| are in production.
| abracadaniel wrote:
| The mRNA vaccines don't produce the entire spike protein,
| just a portion of it in order to target the antibodies
| towards that specific portion of the spike.
| AareyBaba wrote:
| Your insights are not entirely correct. There are more
| than two types of covid vaccines.
|
| Coronavirus Vaccines - An Introduction by JAMA is a good
| starting point.
| https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KMc3vL_MIeo
|
| COVID-19 Vaccines goes into greater detail.
| https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=35Idb_lCU4o
| drcross wrote:
| >which is what Covid binds to.
|
| You mean the SARS-2 spike protein binds to the ACE receptors.
| mRNA vaccines create the spike protein so it's going to work
| in exactly the same way as natural infection. Recent research
| from Japan is showing that the spike protein from vaccination
| is not staying at the injection site it can get into the
| blood stream (and causes blood clots as are widely reported),
| crossing the blood brain barrier and affecting the heart. As
| a healthy 30 year old I would prefer to take my risk with
| covid than take these vaccines. I've done enough research to
| know what I'm talking about and the smartest people I know
| have reached the same conclusion.
| type0 wrote:
| > Recent research from Japan is showing that the spike
| protein from vaccination is not staying at the injection
| site it can get into the blood stream (and causes blood
| clots as are widely reported), crossing the blood brain
| barrier and affecting the heart.
|
| Please dr Cross, where's the link to these studies?
| ancientorange wrote:
| >As a healthy 30 year old I would prefer to take my risk
| with covid than take these vaccines.
|
| As an exhausted 34 year old who spent the last year field-
| monitoring vaccine trials, I would love to see the sources
| that informed your position.
| [deleted]
| zarq wrote:
| > spent the last year field-monitoring vaccine trials
|
| As an adult that was vaccinated, thank you for doing your
| part to get us all here.
| munificent wrote:
| _> As a healthy 30 year old I would prefer to take my risk
| with covid than take these vaccines._
|
| Unfortunate that you're also unilaterally forcing everyone
| you come into contact with to take that same risk if you
| are infected without realizing it.
| trhway wrote:
| > everyone you come into contact with to take that same
| risk
|
| how come so if those "everyone" got vaccinated? I mean
| all the risk groups who has clearly higher risk from
| covid than vaccine should definitely go for vaccine. The
| rest - personal choice of risk. And as a healthy 49 years
| old, i'm taking my chance with covid and have no plans
| for vaccination (i was always laughing at anti-vaxxers,
| yet seeing all misinformation and propaganda (the smell
| of USSR strength propaganda is just overwhelming) around
| covid i think i'll pass this one)
| nrb wrote:
| "everyone" currently excludes a large number of people
| who would otherwise like to be immunized for a variety of
| reasons (age, medical risks), and vaccines are not 100%
| effective
| dkarras wrote:
| That... doesn't make sense. You WILL get exposed to this
| virus. Worst case, the virus will be able to do the same
| _and more_ without any prior training for your immune
| system. If you said "I'll try not to get covid" I'd say
| "Impossible but godspeed" at least your logic would be
| sound.
| thenaturalist wrote:
| Absolutely this. What are your "smartest" friends saying
| about the billions of dollars invested and spent by other
| really smart individuals in developing these vaccines in
| the first place? I bet world class biologists and
| investors aren't doing it for the fun.
|
| PS: If anyone is curious about the "real thing", I'd
| highly recommend you look up hospital documentaries on
| COVID IC units. There is one - unfortunately German only
| - called "Charite intensiv" which quite drastically
| showcases the extent of what you have to deal with when
| contracting COVID. Let me tell you it's quite a bit more
| than myocarditis.
| zacharyvoase wrote:
| I got covid last year, and this year got vaccinated, and if
| I repeated the scenario 1 million times I'd take the
| vaccine over the infection 1 million times.
| eganist wrote:
| > I've done enough research to know what I'm talking about
|
| The standard practice is for those making the assertion to
| provide their references or data. Since you've done the
| research, can you please link any published and peer
| reviewed research establishing that the health risks from
| the vaccine are within two orders of magnitude of the
| health risks from the virus? Including morbidity,
| mortality, etc.
|
| > The smartest people I know have reached the same
| conclusion.
|
| Can you please reference them as well so I can read their
| published content?
| pcbro141 wrote:
| I'm curious if you were prescribed any treatment for
| myocarditis if you don't mind me asking?
| Kognito wrote:
| Questions are more than welcome :)
|
| No treatment, just a follow up cardiac MRI after 3 months
| which showed (thankfully) a resolution of inflammation and
| normal heart function. Was prescribed low-dose beta blockers
| if the palpitations bothered me too much though didn't end up
| needing them.
|
| As I understand it the typical approach is to wait and see
| since the majority of cases resolve without treatment -
| though I've noticed in the US it's more popular to prescribe
| a low-dose cocktail of various heart meds. Not aware of any
| clinical data on their effectiveness in mild cases.
| salemh wrote:
| >second dose There has been some discussion on that:
|
| Delaying a Covid vaccine's second dose boosts immune response
| https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27156859
| mrfusion wrote:
| COVID induced myocarditis has been thoroughly disproven:
|
| https://www.statnews.com/2021/05/14/setting-the-record-strai...
| wozniacki wrote:
| Anecdotal or not, there have been plenty of otherwise healthy
| young people reporting everything from palpitations, chest
| pain to arrhythmia
|
| https://www.reddit.com/r/CovidVaccinated/search?q=myocarditi.
| .. [1]
|
| [1] /r/CovidVaccinated
|
| https://www.reddit.com/r/CovidVaccinated/
| nicoburns wrote:
| Based on my personal experience, I'm pretty skeptical of
| this. I'm 28, healthy (or was previously), and have never
| previously had any issues with my heart. Got covid last April
| which came with quite sharp heart pain which seemed to match
| up very well to descriptions of myocarditis on and off for
| about 6 months. And I'm only just now getting to the point
| now where a raised heart beat isn't painful.
|
| You might say it's anecdotal, but _something_ had to cause
| that.
| bena wrote:
| Never previously had any issues with your heart... that you
| were aware of.
|
| Heart issues can go unnoticed until the day you drop dead.
| Kognito wrote:
| If you're in a position to do so, I'd strongly recommend
| you get checked out if you're having any kind of chest pain
| as your heart rate rises.
|
| I lost count of how many times I was told "you're too young
| to have any heart issues" before eventually being diagnosed
| with myo. FWIW I'm younger than you and though mild, my
| symptoms seem to have taken 9 months to mostly resolve.
| nonbirithm wrote:
| I'm also young and have had mild to moderate chest pain
| (stabbing) that comes in bursts and can last hours. This
| was after what I thought was a cardiac event in February
| of 2019, a year before the pandemic, when I suddenly
| started feeling lightheaded and seeing stars, but the EMS
| said nothing was wrong. Before that moment I never had
| any chest pain, and it still comes back to this day
| occasionally. I must have had an ECG a dozen times since
| then. I ordered a barrage of tests up to a heart
| ultrasound and a stress test, and nothing came of it all.
| I was frequently told it was unlikely anything was wrong
| because of my age.
|
| It was a miserable period of my life, not knowing if I
| was going to survive to the next day. The pain is always
| on the left side of my chest and has fluctuated around
| various regions of it. Recently it became worse again
| after taking Adderall, which raised my heart rate, so I
| still suspect something is wrong with my heart, but it
| seems that after a year of stressful hospital visits and
| no definitive answers, I've exhausted everything that
| would have given me a diagnosis at this point.
| Kognito wrote:
| Thanks for the article, an interesting read for sure. It's
| nice to see there's been plenty of follow-up study on this.
|
| Respectfully, you're wrong to say "thoroughly disproven".
| Even the article ends with the suggestion that it's a side-
| effect of covid, albeit a rare one.
|
| The article's position is more that it was overblown to worry
| about stopping young athletes from competing for fear of myo
| being a common side-effect as opposed to the ~1% rate the
| studies have since shown.
| eckesicle wrote:
| My wife died from myocarditis 2 months ago. The only thing
| she tested positive for was COVID.
|
| The coroner's report however, was quite clear that COVID
| did not cause her death or the myocarditis and that there
| has been no such reported case anywhere in the world.
|
| If anyone has information to dispute that I would be very
| interested to see it. Thanks
| timr wrote:
| Myocarditis is unfortunately very common. There are many
| causes, including a panoply of viruses for which tests
| may not exist. That is _probably_ why the coroner 's
| report said what it did.
|
| I'm sorry for your loss.
| Kognito wrote:
| I'm so sorry for your loss, myo is a terrible illness and
| so poorly understood by the medical community - even
| cardiologists seem to have a hard time recognising it.
|
| There's a good deal of info available in medical journals
| relating to covid and myo. I'm no doctor though I've
| researched it well since being diagnosed.
| thenaturalist wrote:
| I am sorry for your loss. May her memory be a blessing.
| myfavoritedog wrote:
| I wonder how many other coroners ruled a case of
| myocarditis to not have been caused by a recent COVID
| infection because other coroners had not been willing to
| make the association either?
| [deleted]
| bitwize wrote:
| The child of a friend of my girlfriend developed COVID
| myocarditis. He'll have heart problems for the rest of his
| life now.
|
| He's a child.
|
| This is why nothing less than total lockdown will do, even
| for a disease with a 99.97% survival rate -- at what cost
| comes survival?
| [deleted]
| gulli1010 wrote:
| COVID is still an unfolding disaster. I doubt that anybody
| really understands completely what it does.
| gulli1010 wrote:
| I have also been experiencing irregular heart beat and
| palpitations. Quite possible that I had COVID at some
| point.
| devb wrote:
| Have you been exercising less since lockdowns started?
| gulli1010 wrote:
| I never really exercised much. But heart palpitations are
| something new, been noticing it for the last few months.
| rob74 wrote:
| I can share a story about heart palpitations: I started
| having them in ~2008 without any previous infection (that
| I know of). Interestingly enough, they were appearing
| when my heart rate was going down - most noticeably while
| I was lying in bed trying to sleep, which isn't easy if
| your heart starts "missing some beats" out of the blue!
| Went to various doctors, they couldn't find anything
| wrong with my heart, but couldn't find anything that
| could help me get rid of the palpitations either. Then,
| in 2010, I got chickenpox, which at age 36 is a pretty
| big deal, with high fever, blisters all over the body
| etc. That took two weeks, and after that my palpitations
| were gone, and haven't returned since (knock on wood,
| fingers crossed etc.). So I can only assume that I had
| some form of myocarditis and the high fever got rid of
| that too?! No idea...
| throwaway5752 wrote:
| I would "take your chances" (quotes because it's both rare and
| temporary according to the linked article) with the vaccine
| rather than risk infection with covid:
| https://www.health.harvard.edu/blog/the-hidden-long-term-cog...
| oogabooga123 wrote:
| Very interesting! But I would rather just get infected. To
| each their own, I'm sure we can agree!
| moron4hire wrote:
| Natural infection won't provide as long lasting of immunity
| compared to the mRNA vaccines. And if the vaccine is going
| to inflame your heart, I seriously doubt it's going to be
| anything but far worse from the natural infection.
| andai wrote:
| Can someone explain why this the mRNA vaccine (which
| tells your body to produce spike protein and thus mimic
| the virus) produces long-lasting immunity but the actual
| virus which is being mimicked does not do that?
| jobu wrote:
| There was a piece about this on NPR (I think earlier this
| week, but I can't find it right now).
|
| It sounded like they're making some assumptions because
| the mRNA vaccine causes most people to produce a higher
| level of antibodies for a longer period of time vs the
| real virus. However, antibodies are not the only part of
| immune system, so it's possible that other parts of the
| immune system may still be effective.
|
| The real answer is we don't know that yet conclusively,
| but we do know the vaccine is effective, so until we have
| a better understanding it's a good idea to be vaccinated
| regardless (especially if you have any risk factors).
| shmel wrote:
| How do you know this? mRNA vaccines are literally so new
| we don't know what will be in 2 years from now. They were
| never used in humans.
|
| In comparison SARS survivors from 2003 still have
| immunity (I believe the same is with MERS).
| throwaway5752 wrote:
| That isn't quite true. Since sars-covid-2 is new, it
| follows of course the specific vaccine is new. The
| RNA/mRNA approach goes back 30 years to HIV research, and
| the current vaccine has many years of research (directly
| from SARS-1 and MERS, and possible mitigations). A lot is
| known about them, regardless of widespread use. We will
| all undoubtedly learn more.
|
| I'm not replying directly to you, but the duration of the
| immunity isn't terribly important past a certain point.
| The vaccine is much, much safer than infection. It
| prevents overwhelming of medical resources, and can
| reduce the community transmission levels to an extent
| that it can end a pandemic. Those are the primary
| benefits, not better or worse immune memory. That would
| just be a fringe benefit if it were the case.
| lnwlebjel wrote:
| FYI you're trading a known risk (COVID infection,
| complications, possibly lasting ones, eg. [1]) for a
| perhaps hypothetical, certainly very unlikely, one.
|
| [1] https://twitter.com/EricTopol/status/140261419319539302
| 9/pho...
| oogabooga123 wrote:
| Thanks for the info! This doesn't change my mind but I
| appreciate it anyway, and perhaps it will change the mind
| of some reader who was on the fence.
| Kognito wrote:
| Yeah, somewhat regret my closing comment there. I most likely
| _will_ take my chances of a second dose over being infected.
| throwaway5752 wrote:
| Please do, and be well. Thank you for replying with that.
| Giorgi wrote:
| Damn it, I already have heart problems and still in queue for
| mRNA thinking it was safer than AstraZeneca clots risk. Guess
| not. Crap.
| Klonoar wrote:
| FWIW, I also have a heart condition, and experienced no issues.
|
| Obviously I can't give you medical advice, but figure it's
| worth noting that it's not a guaranteed experience. ;P
| majormajor wrote:
| The article mentions some hospitalizations but not any deaths,
| so it still definitely seems safer.
| DennisP wrote:
| It'd be nice if they mentioned how many cases there were,
| compared to number of shots.
| meibo wrote:
| They do, in this exact article. 283 cases were noted in the
| VAERS database, there are about 130 million fully vaccinated
| people in the US.
|
| I assume they don't track healthy people in the database of
| adverse vaccination reactions.
| DennisP wrote:
| So they do. I'm pretty sure they added that after I read it.
| handrous wrote:
| The whole article could use a lot more context, which has been
| typical of COVID reporting. For one thing: is heart
| inflammation a rare side-effect for vaccines and/or immune
| responses generally? If not, to what degree (if any) does this
| exceed rates we see for other vaccines?
|
| That should be second-paragraph-of-article sorts of
| information.
| [deleted]
| sdenton4 wrote:
| Exactly this.
|
| I'm curious how much we're seeing effects that are present
| but just haven't been measured previously, because of the
| size of the newly-vaccinated population.
|
| The second dose is obviously very stressful on the body -
| people are often down for a couple days dealing with the
| reaction - so it seems unsurprising that there's /some/ kind
| of measurable secondary effect. Stress is known to correlate
| with heart attack.
| sbierwagen wrote:
| They link to the CDC slide deck. Slide 14:
| https://www.fda.gov/media/150054/download
|
| 488 total reports from Pfizer-BioNTech, 301 reports from
| Moderna.
|
| Slide 18 shows proportions. 12,169,692 doses administered.
| Expected number (base rate) of Myocarditis/pericarditis cases
| in persons under 25, 10 to 103. Cases observed: 277. So it
| roughly quadrupled the base rate. Which brings the adverse
| reaction rate up to... 0.000276%
| Fomite wrote:
| The debate between presenting absolute vs. relative rates is
| a really interesting one in epidemiology, for the record,
| with roots spanning everything from "absolute risk regression
| models are actually kind of tricky" to the early arguments
| about smoking and lung cancer, casual criteria, and R.A.
| Fisher being on the wrong side of history.
| amluto wrote:
| This only requires that a person with myocarditis be 3-4x as
| likely to notice it after a COVID vaccine than without a
| COVID vaccine. That seems consistent with a real effect but
| also consistent with no vaccine effect at all.
| dfsegoat wrote:
| It's a postmarketing surveillance system [1]. Not a controlled
| trial, so the true exposure vs. reported cases isn't known for
| these data from VAERS.
|
| > "There were 283 observed cases of heart inflammation after
| the second vaccine dose in those aged 16 to 24 in the VAERS
| data. That compares with expectations of 10-to-102 cases for
| that age range based on U.S. population background incidence
| rates, the CDC said."
|
| They use Observed vs. Expected cases in order to calculate e.g.
| a reporting odds ratio [2], which can loosely guide you in
| finding events which occur disproportionately.
|
| 1. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Postmarketing_surveillance
|
| 2. https://allaboutpharmacovigilance.org/43-reporting-odds-
| rati...
| mario_lopez wrote:
| Agreed. Context matters here.
|
| I'd hate for this to get blown out of proportion like the blood
| clot issue did, causing massive confidence declines in places
| all over, especially those struggling to roll out vaccines and
| keep their COVID cases under control.
|
| Obviously, if the numbers are alarming, we must react
| accordingly.
| dfsegoat wrote:
| They are alarming based on the measure of Observed vs.
| Expected cases.
|
| Observed (O) cases in that age group: 283
|
| Expected (E) cases in that age group: 10-102
|
| So at least double the top of the confidence interval, for
| expected.
| shawabawa3 wrote:
| but that's out of 13m doses, so ~200 out of 13m. I'm not
| sure how that compares to the expected harm from catching
| covid but I imagine the vaccine still ends up massively
| favourable
| nwellnhof wrote:
| This depends a lot on the probability of contracting
| Covid at all. Roughly speaking, if there's a 1% chance to
| contract the disease, the vaccine has to be at least 100
| times safer. As the chance to catch Covid decreases over
| time, the risks associated with vaccines become more of a
| problem.
| heisenbit wrote:
| > As the chance to catch Covid decreases over time, the
| risks associated with vaccines become more of a problem.
|
| This is a big assumption. It could also be that it
| becomes part of the virus background infections we all
| deal with except that it is high risk if you get it the
| first time.
|
| When looking that the risk of an non vaccinated
| individual catching Covid today keep in mind that a lot
| of people have been vaccinated and the incidence numbers
| de-facto refer to incidences of the non vaccinated part
| of the population which would justify a smaller
| denominator than used (whole population).
| sudosysgen wrote:
| Without vaccines the risk of catching covid is of around
| 70% at least.
| HPsquared wrote:
| Is that for an individual not taking the vaccine but
| benefiting from herd immunity of others, or a person in a
| while society without vaccines?
| sudosysgen wrote:
| For society in general.
|
| That said, there is no guarantee that herd immunity will
| ever be reached at least in the US. If herd immunity
| isn't reached then it's basically guaranteed you'll get
| it eventually as the disease becomes a "background
| disease".
| swader999 wrote:
| Have to really consider if the 200 are but a fraction of
| the actual though. I mean how many are going to be
| reported?
| fwip wrote:
| I'd wager it's approximately the same fraction of
| myocarditis cases that are reported in the unvaccinated
| group. There may even be a bias toward over-reporting
| myocarditis in the wake of a vaccine, as people are
| primed to look for side effects.
| dfsegoat wrote:
| Per the article. The age group of concern "accounted for
| less than 9% of doses administered."
|
| Also, underreporting is a factor - not everyone knows
| about VAERS, not everyone goes to the Dr. for chest pain
| etc.
|
| I agree it's favorable, but it's important to understand
| the effects of any medicine on subgroups of a treatment
| population.
| fwip wrote:
| Right, but you've got to look at the absolute rate, which
| in this case is 283 out of 12 million, which is roughly 24
| people per million.
|
| You can look at the risk of what it's preventing (covid has
| already killed ~1700 people per million in the US), or
| compare to other activities and risk levels.
|
| Relative risk comparisons between different activities are
| often not useful. For example, the risk of shark-death at
| the beach might look alarming when compared to my risk of
| shark-death-at-home, but actually it's vanishingly
| unlikely.
| makomk wrote:
| The trouble is that the people apparently at risk from
| this are not the people at risk from Covid-19. The risk
| to people between the ages of 12 and 24 from Covid is
| really, really small. Especially towards the lower end of
| that age range, most countries seem to be seeing low
| single-digit per million deaths: https://www.thelancet.co
| m/journals/lanchi/article/PIIS2352-4...
| jlokier wrote:
| The risk of _death_ from Covid-19 is low in that age
| range.
|
| But what about the risk of heart inflammation from
| Covid-19 in that age group, possibly with no other Covid
| symptoms?
| robbiep wrote:
| That's the right question to ask
| redis_mlc wrote:
| Women ofte report heart problems as nausea, differently than men,
| who report it as pain.
|
| So this side effect may be under-reported or misdiagnosed in
| women, so not male-only.
| AnimalMuppet wrote:
| Hmm. A "hidden" or "silent" heart attack often shows up as
| fatigue. This could be _far_ more prevalent than data
| indicates.
|
| Note that I'm not saying that it _is_ more prevalent. So far as
| I know, there is no data to support my suspicion. And,
| personally, I suspect that if some of that is heart trouble, it
| 's the minority of cases of Covid (and Covid vaccine) fatigue.
| But I note that the possibility exists that this could be
| prevalent.
| thatswrong0 wrote:
| Anecdote: I had this reaction to the 2nd dose of the Pfizer
| vaccine, saw a cardiologist and she mentioned that she's been
| seeing this quite a bit after the second dose. Have had to lay
| low for a month, but it seems like the symptoms are finally
| passing.
| Black101 wrote:
| I wanted to avoid the second dose but ended up getting it
| anyways... hope they don't rush vaccine approvals again...
| might be good in the short run, but if issues come up, it might
| be bad in the long run.
| Klonoar wrote:
| Interesting.
|
| It's also anecdotal, but I have a existing heart condition and
| experienced no such side-effects post-dose (on either dose
| (Moderna)).
| popotamonga wrote:
| What kind of symptoms makes one go to a cardiologist? Just
| curious
| atom_arranger wrote:
| I'm 27 and experienced a lot of chest pains and skipped
| heartbeats earlier this year. One night I stood up quickly,
| walked a bit then lost consciousness (low blood pressure),
| hit my head on the way down. I had an ambulance to the ER
| after that, they didn't find anything wrong during that
| visit.
|
| I was referred to a cardiologist, had a holter monitor, ECG,
| and stress test. None of those turned up any issue.
|
| Going by what I've read about this online I suspect I may
| have had myocarditis from a case of COVID, but I think that
| would only show up on an MRI, not the tests I got. Luckily
| the palpitations and chest pain have mostly gone away over
| the past couple months.
|
| In relation to speculation about COVID and myocarditis cases
| elsewhere on this page: I doubt my case will be reported
| because the association between COVID and heart problems
| didn't seem to be on the radar of any of the doctors I saw.
| thatswrong0 wrote:
| I went to the doctor because of general shortness of breath
| all the time, heart rate spiking during normal activity like
| standing up, palpitations out the wazoo, and general fatigue.
| mannykannot wrote:
| Arrhythmias are perhaps the most specific indicators that you
| should see a cardiologist, but chest pain and/or shortage of
| breath on mild exercise could well be caused by a heart
| problem. These are some of the symptoms of myocarditis, among
| other things.
| elliekelly wrote:
| If you don't mind sharing I'd be curious to hear how you knew
| something was wrong? If I were a man in my teens or early 20s
| (or even 30s!) I feel like I would chalk any chest pain up to
| anxiety or heartburn before I ever even considered the
| possibility of a heart situation. My understanding is
| myocarditis is usually not a big deal but it does require
| treatment and isn't something you should just "wait and see" if
| it resolves on its own.
| thatswrong0 wrote:
| I went to the doctor because of general shortness of breath
| all the time, heart rate spiking during normal activity like
| standing up, palpitations out the wazoo, and general fatigue.
| If I felt "sick" or fluish that'd be one thing.. this seemed
| different.
| psychlops wrote:
| I had this as a side effect of covid last year. You are
| correct, no medication was given and they won't actually do a
| biopsy of your heart due to the risk so the will simply wait
| and see.
|
| It feels like a big deal. I had never had heart issues and it
| felt like my whole system was unstable. Hard to describe
| really. I don't know how serious it is, however. The
| cardiologists just tested my heart, saw that there was no
| blockage and the blood flow was strong and told me to rest.
|
| edit to add: On the second dose of Pfizer, I felt a minor
| version of this for about an hour in the middle of the night
| after a morning shot. No other symptoms beyond a strong
| immune response.
| nicoburns wrote:
| Good to hear this experience. I also had this as a side
| effect of a covid infection last year (having never
| previously had any heart issues). I've just had my first
| Phizer dose, and this article had me questioning the wisdom
| of getting the second dose. But I feel like an hour won't
| do me much harm. It lasted for months with the actual
| infection.
| psychlops wrote:
| I call the heart part the bonus round. And same, it took
| me several months to get better.
| digitaltrees wrote:
| I had this after COVID in April last year right at the
| beginning. I suspect it is an immune reaction to the virus not
| the vaccine itself.
| SketchySeaBeast wrote:
| But the Pfizer vaccine doesn't contain any of the virus,
| unless it's just the immune reaction to the spike protein
| that causes the problem?
| lame-robot-hoax wrote:
| https://blogs.sciencemag.org/pipeline/archives/2021/05/04/s
| p...
|
| Derek Lowe has a post that discusses this.
|
| In short from what I remember, the vaccine is administered
| in the deltoid, so most of the spike proteins should remain
| there. Some may travel throughout the body, but overall it
| is much much less than a natural infection.
|
| That's why I'm curious to compare myocarditis rates after
| vaccination to those after infection, because from what we
| know, natural infection should result in a higher rate of
| myocarditis than vaccination.
| nicoburns wrote:
| > unless it's just the immune reaction to the spike protein
| that causes the problem?
|
| If the problem is inflammation then that seems entirely
| plausible... I thought that an immune response was exactly
| what inflammation is
| SketchySeaBeast wrote:
| But then it would be caused by untold number of things
| and not marked out as special.
| krrrh wrote:
| The vaccine produces spike protein and some research
| suggests that the spike protein itself is the source of
| vascular system damage. There was a contention that the
| vaccine spike protein is designed to stay on the surface of
| infected cells and not freely circulate into the
| bloodstream in large quantities but we also just don't know
| for certain. It could even have to do with how the vaccine
| is administered and whether it largely affects the lymph
| system or a large quantity makes its way into the
| bloodstream.
|
| https://www.salk.edu/news-release/the-novel-coronavirus-
| spik...
| numpad0 wrote:
| Maybe having immune system working hard somehow naturally
| puts strain on cardiovascular systems?
| jerf wrote:
| A theory (far from proved, but certainly also nothing I'd
| consider "disproved") is that the spike protein itself
| may be dangerous, in which case injecting something into
| yourself that causes your body to deliberately produce it
| may not be an unmitigated good.
|
| I don't think we have the data either way to be _sure_
| the spike protein is completely harmless, though
| obviously how dangerous it is is bounded by the fact that
| many people experience no ill effects. (That is, it
| obviously can 't be super-ultra-deadly, because it's not
| killing everyone instantly. How dangerous it could
| possibly be is bounded by the fact that many people have
| received the vaccine.)
| nicoburns wrote:
| Presumably the effect is also bounded by the fact that it
| can't reproduce.
| SketchySeaBeast wrote:
| Wouldn't that lead to heart inflammation with pretty much
| every sickness then? And given that the vaccine side
| effects are often less than a common cold, I don't know
| if that's particularly compelling.
| triceratop wrote:
| The logic here is astounding. You blame the immune system
| instead of the vaccine, because the population has been
| conditioned to believe vaccines, even if experimental,
| are without risk.
| derbOac wrote:
| Along those lines, I am wondering how this compares to
| other non-SARS-CoV-2 vaccines.
| gabriel9 wrote:
| This sounds more scary then covid. At least from the people who
| told me how was it when they had the infection, four of my
| friends to be precise. Did you doctor said about any long term
| issues or it is too early?
| pmccarren wrote:
| Anecdote: I too experienced this reaction, albeit after the
| first dose.
|
| Noticeable but not significant heart pain beginning
| approximately 4 hours after getting the first vaccine.
|
| Speaking with medical professionals, they said symptoms should
| improve with time, and they have nearly completely across the
| 1.5 months since.
|
| Unsure if worth noting, but I had very strong immune responses
| to both the first and second doses.
| pmccarren wrote:
| Pure, unadulterated speculation:
|
| It felt like the mRNA took hold in both my arm, _and_ my
| heart. Which given the proximity and paths between, is not
| entirely surprising.
|
| It felt like the vaccine entered my bloodstream and was taken
| up, in part, by the heart. Which then started making spike
| protein and soliciting an immune response.
|
| I'd really love to learn more about this, but haven't been
| able to find any good resources. If anyone can point me in
| the right direction, I'm all ears!
| bialpio wrote:
| This post was interesting to me and would mean that if the
| shot got into your bloodstream, it could've been mis-
| administered? https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27464226
| pmccarren wrote:
| That is very intriguing.
|
| The location of injection site was spot on. However, I'm
| unsure if there are other factors at work beyond
| specifically location
| nicoburns wrote:
| I was also wondering that. There was only the tiniest
| spot of blood when I got mine.
| xml123 wrote:
| Can the government present anything in a useful manner?
|
| The most important information, i.e. if the young men engaged in
| heavy sports right after getting the vaccine, is missing.
|
| Heavy sports is obviously also dangerous while recovering from
| the flu.
|
| But the disorganized chaotic government presentation doesn't give
| any useful information.
| jimmyswimmy wrote:
| Your question isn't really well-posed. It's more about
| scientific communications than about government communications,
| and scientists are notoriously poor at communicating nuanced
| technical information to the general public. And the general
| public is notoriously poor at appreciating nuance.
|
| Really, if this were intended for public consumption, they
| would avoid abbreviations like "AEs" and instead spell out
| "Adverse Events" or maybe be much more specific. I doubt most
| people even on here know what "pyrexia" is, I had to look it up
| to be sure.
|
| Anyway, more to your point, the data presented is collected
| from VAERS. I've spent some time reading these exact data
| lately to try to understand the risk/reward for vaccinating
| children. The system is intentionally, I think, focused on a
| free-text data input, along with a huge grab bag of drop-down-
| box symptoms. In any event, there's no obvious way to ensure
| people report other activities.
|
| If you read some of the VAERS reports you might appreciate my
| point better. They range from professional reports clearly
| written by a medical professional, to personal discussions, and
| in this age group have a lot of reports written by parents. In
| none of the hundreds I read did a person describe participation
| in heavy sports. By that omission we can conclude nothing
| whatsoever regarding the relationship between heavy sports and
| vaccination.
|
| The powerpoint from FDA that I read actually gave a lot of
| useful information. It was a much better summary of the VAERS
| data than I was able to glean by manually reading through the
| reports. Myocarditis <edit: no!> and syncope seemed to me to be
| the most frequent side effect of vaccination at least in this
| age group, and the powerpoint seems to align with my
| impression.
|
| EDIT: Syncope seemed to me to be the most frequent based on
| eyeballing the reports. I actually didn't notice myocarditis at
| all when I first looked through VAERS reports, not sure why I
| wrote that originally.
| searine wrote:
| That is a hypothesis but there isn't enough data yet to prove
| that is the definitive truth. We know it's rare, its above the
| expected mean, but could still be just statistical noise.
|
| It would be irresponsible to report that as the headline
| because this is still a developing topic. What's important is
| that the FDA was watching it closely enough to detect the
| effect, and are following up on it.
|
| Good job FDA. That's the kind of thing I want my taxes spent
| on.
| macinjosh wrote:
| Be careful criticizing government on HN it will be buried in
| down votes by the fanatics for whatever party is currently in
| power.
| dang wrote:
| Please don't break the site guidelines like this. Comments
| like this are tedious and the perceptions are notoriously in
| the eye of the beholder.
|
| (No, we don't care if people criticize the government. We
| care about comment quality and ensuing discussion quality.)
|
| https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
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