[HN Gopher] China has created a 'dystopian hellscape' in Xinjian...
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China has created a 'dystopian hellscape' in Xinjiang, Amnesty
report says
Author : pmoriarty
Score : 120 points
Date : 2021-06-10 16:45 UTC (6 hours ago)
(HTM) web link (www.bbc.co.uk)
(TXT) w3m dump (www.bbc.co.uk)
| throwawaysea wrote:
| > Those torture methods, according to the report, included
| "beatings, electric shocks, stress positions, the unlawful use of
| restraints (including being locked in a tiger chair), sleep
| deprivation, being hung from a wall, being subjected to extremely
| cold temperatures, and solitary confinement".
|
| > The "tiger chair" - the existence of which has been reported
| elsewhere - is said to be a steel chair with leg irons and
| handcuffs designed to shackle the body in place. Several former
| detainees told Amnesty they were forced to watch others locked
| immobile in the tiger chair for hours or even days at a time.
|
| I hadn't heard of what a "tiger chair" was, and found a picture
| at the Daily Mail. It's apparently just a metal chair, but
| staying immobilized on it for days can be torturous and causes
| swelling or bleeding on the legs and buttocks:
| https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3421938/China-claim...
| pmoriarty wrote:
| _" The tiger chair, also known as a tiger bench, is a five-foot
| long board with a vertical backrest on one end. The tortured
| detainee sits lengthwise with his or her legs stretching down
| the board. His or her arms are restricted behind the backrest.
| The mouth may or may not be gaged, but often times left
| unobstructed to allow for shouts and screams that can frighten
| other prisoners. Initially, ropes are tied tightly around the
| legs, above and below the knee. This procedure has been
| reported to cause extreme discomfort as the ropes cut into the
| skin._
|
| _Next, bricks are placed underneath the calves elevating the
| legs. Not only are the bricks uncomfortable, but also the knees
| start to stress from hypertension--unnatural backward bending
| of the knee. At the same time, the tension in the rope
| increases as the bricks are added digging into the victim 's
| skin and muscle tissue._
|
| _The more the victim resists, the greater the chance for
| bricks to be added, increasing the legs elevation and tension
| in the ropes. The torture progresses until the ropes break. It
| has been documented; prisoners have gone to a literal breaking
| point with bone fractures._
|
| _Additionally, metal poles or wooden rods with weights on the
| end will be placed over the victim 's legs increasing the
| severity in pain._
|
| _Finally, as the victim is tied, he or she is unable to defend
| against punches, kicks, electrical prods, and so on. One
| detainee said, "I sat until my buttocks bled."_
|
| _The victim can be left in the same position for hours, even
| days in discomfort. "_
|
| https://www.laogai.it/tiger-chair-tool-for-torture
| xtian wrote:
| Amnesty International corroborated this congressional testimony
| which was used to justify the first Gulf War and later revealed
| to be a complete fabrication:
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nayirah_testimony
| deanCommie wrote:
| I think it's interesting that your entire comment history is
| defending China, and the CPC:
| https://news.ycombinator.com/threads?id=xtian
|
| And it's full of laughable statement that anyone living in a
| free democratic country can only shake their head at.
|
| Classic Soviet style propaganda that is TECHNICALLY TRUE while
| entirely missing the point:
|
| > Xi never declared himself president for life, the National
| People's Congress simply passed a law removing term limits.
| Angela Merkel has been chancellor of Germany for twice as long
| as Xi has been president of China.
| xtian wrote:
| Not my entire history, just my history after I learned a
| little bit about China and realized how many people on this
| site consider themselves to be intelligent free thinkers but
| simply regurgitate the pre-packaged US line on anything
| geopolitical. My only aim is to dissent against the
| manufacturing of consent for another bloody US war. What's
| yours?
| AnimalMuppet wrote:
| _My_ aim is the truth, and decent human morals. If China is
| doing evil, morally repugnant, inhumane things in Xinjiang,
| then I 'm going to say, as clearly as I can, that _China is
| doing evil, morally repugnant, inhumane things in
| Xinjiang_. And I 'm not going to sugar-coat it because
| people have said similar things in the past as part of a
| push for war.
| pasabagi wrote:
| I think even if you _are_ a paid troll, you should probably
| branch out in your interests. There 's no real coherent
| thread or sense of personality coming out in your
| commentary - it's just 'argument winners', factoids and
| framings that push a certain view. And maybe you just like
| to win more than you like providing clear analysis - I'm
| certainly sympathetic with the idea of cooling geopolitical
| tensions, but I think the way you're doing it will never
| work.
|
| (This goes double if you're a paid troll, China is just
| awful at soft power for structural reasons - a core
| competence for politicians in a democracy is spin. Trying
| to astroturf past that is just pissing in the wind.)
| xtian wrote:
| I get downvoted for posting undisputed facts that
| conflict with Western narratives. I would get downvoted
| even more for my actual analysis.
|
| I do like how often people seem to think that the only
| reason someone might contradict Western narratives if
| they're getting paid to do so. I'm just a white dude from
| Ohio who wants an end to endless war and imperialism.
| plorkyeran wrote:
| If you're operating in good faith and genuinely want to
| persuade people, then your takeaway from this exchange is
| that how you're doing it isn't working and you should
| rethink your approach.
| xtian wrote:
| What would be more persuasive?
| zepto wrote:
| > I'm just a white dude from Ohio who wants an end to
| endless war and imperialism.
|
| How would anyone know this?
| xtian wrote:
| What proof do you want?
| bingbong70 wrote:
| This notion that everyone skeptical of western defense
| contractor funded claims is paid by China is a sad
| evolution of the close minded rebuttals that existed
| during the Iraq WMD period.
|
| There is no counter to this false claim online which is
| why it is unfortunately effective in shutting down
| discourse.
|
| I guess we are stupid enough to walk into a potential war
| the same way we were scammed into one not too long ago.
| We already forgot the lessons as a population.
| zepto wrote:
| > This notion that everyone skeptical of western defense
| contractor funded claims is paid by China ...
|
| I don't see anyone saying anything about skepticism or
| 'everyone'. I see pasabagi criticizing xtian's specific
| comments and approach.
|
| > I guess we are stupid enough to walk into a potential
| war the same way we were scammed into one not too long
| ago. We already forgot the lessons as a population.
|
| Yes, getting scammed into a war with China would be bad.
| Assuming any negative comment about China to be an
| attempt to scam us into a war also seems like a mistake.
| zepto wrote:
| > My only aim is to dissent against the manufacturing of
| consent for another bloody US war.
|
| What has this got to do with whether what is reported about
| Xinjiang is true or not?
| xtian wrote:
| Well NATO-aligned countries seem to be the only ones
| claiming that it's true. There's a pretty clear pattern
| in US history. Or are you still hoping for Saddam's WMDs
| to show up to justify the fact that due to the US' use of
| depleted uranium munitions, Fallujah now has one of the
| highest rates of birth defects, childhood cancer, and
| multiple cancers in the world?
| zepto wrote:
| Ok - so you seem to keep quoting bad things about the US
| and now NATO, but what has this to do with the truth of
| what is happening in Xinjiang?
|
| Are you claiming the reports are lies?
|
| Obviously the CCP and anyone they have influence over
| will want to play the reports down.
| xtian wrote:
| There are plenty of reports that conflict with those
| coming out of the US media, and plenty of conflicts of
| interest (at the very least) in the sources of those
| reports.
|
| What do you make of these two pieces of CCP propaganda?
|
| https://youtube.com/watch?v=AaitXSdjFP8
| https://youtube.com/watch?v=4N385vKhXYQ
| zepto wrote:
| Do you not think the CCP has an interest in denying the
| claims?
|
| You talk as if only one side of this is politically
| motivated. Is that what you really think?
| xtian wrote:
| Of course they do? I was being sarcastic about "CCP
| propaganda" but I guess you didn't watch them so you
| didn't get it.
|
| Where have I said that only one side has political
| interests?
| zepto wrote:
| > Where have I said that only one side has political
| interests?
|
| You haven't, but you have repeatedly cited only one
| side's political interests to further your argument that
| that side is lying.
| xtian wrote:
| Oh ok. Let me state China's political interest: to not
| have their political sovereignty violated and be carved
| up by Western powers.
| Isamu wrote:
| Amnesty International is just a mouthpiece of NATO?
| splithalf wrote:
| Stand athwart the push of incentives pulling humanity down
| the slippery slope to Holocaust 2.0.
|
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uyghur_genocide
| nceqs3 wrote:
| free hong kong, free taiwan
| xtian wrote:
| Case in point
| zepto wrote:
| What do you mean? It seems like that commenter is just
| crudely implying that you are an agent of the CCP. I
| think their comment is unhelpful but it's not clear what
| you mean by 'case in point'.
| xtian wrote:
| Regurgitating the pre-packaged US line
| fvv wrote:
| No , he is right, free hong Kong , free Taiwan , free
| Tibet , free Uyghurs , and free to all the oppressed
| people from totalitarisms , and also free Chinese people
| with a free election , free Russians, north Koreans ,
| Egyptians ,.. , give free elections and information from
| those peoples, free China from ccp propaganda so you can
| also be free
| xtian wrote:
| You left out Julian Assange, the Puerto Rican people, the
| Hawaiian people, the people of Okinawa, all the prisoners
| in Guantanamo Bay, the Native Americans...
| wolverine876 wrote:
| > the Puerto Rican people, the Hawaiian people, the
| people of Okinawa
|
| They are like people in Xinjiang? I didn't know they were
| being tortured, sent to re-education camps, and forcibly
| sterilized (among many other things).
|
| You don't seem to care about people in Xinjiang? Don't
| you care that these widely reported abuses, from many
| different sources, have a strong possibility of being
| true? Why are Chinese government officials apparently so
| important to you that you don't seem to even consider the
| welfare of these people?
|
| You could do a lot for them, a lot for the world, by
| standing up for them.
| xtian wrote:
| I do care about the people in Xinjiang so I don't dispute
| the Western claims lightly. I looked into them
| extensively before taking any stance. It was one of the
| first questions I had when I started trying to learn more
| about China. I have complete confidence about the side of
| history I'm on.
| zepto wrote:
| All valid, but what have these to do with Xinjiang?
| AnimalMuppet wrote:
| Not _all_ valid. Not Hawaii. The native Hawaiians
| majority voted for statehood. (I questioned this, here on
| HN a few days ago. Data was, I forget, something like 93%
| vote for statehood, and 50+ of population was native.
| There 's no way you can work that into the majority of
| the native population being opposed.)
| zepto wrote:
| Thanks for the helpful correction.
| xtian wrote:
| Really?
| https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apology_Resolution
| xtian wrote:
| What do "Russians, north Koreans , Egyptians ,.. ," have
| to do with Xinjiang?
| zepto wrote:
| They don't have anything to do with Xinjiang. But you
| seem to be evading the point.
|
| As far as I can see, you think the reports are lies but
| you have presented literally no evidence to support this
| claim.
|
| Everything else you mention is simply a well known list
| of negative statements about the US that are indeed bad,
| but not directly relevant.
|
| How about you list some negatives about China and the CCP
| that would lend credence to the claims about Xinjiang?
| xtian wrote:
| There's plenty of evidence here:
| https://www.qiaocollective.com/en/education/xinjiang
|
| It's up to you whether you think it casts reasonable
| doubt on the claims of US corporate-owned media.
| zepto wrote:
| So it seems like you have nothing bad to say about China
| that could lend credence to any of the reports.
|
| The only story you want to tell is that Xinjiang is a
| fiction made up by US interests.
| xtian wrote:
| Why do I need to say something bad about China? I'm a US
| citizen. That's the only country I have any chance of
| impacting through criticism.
| zepto wrote:
| Because your claim is that the US is lying about Xinjiang
| and your argument is based solely on its political
| interest and its reputation.
|
| If we are evaluating the claims on that basis, we need to
| include China's national interest and reputation too. The
| us may have reasons for lying but so may the CCP.
|
| If we are interested in the truth we must consider both.
|
| > impacting through criticism.
|
| Because the criticism needs to be accurate in order to be
| meaningful.
| xtian wrote:
| > Because your claim is that the US is lying about
| Xinjiang and your argument is based solely on its
| political interest and its reputation.
|
| No it's not. Here's some more evidence:
| https://twitter.com/asatarbair/status/1367632236007202819
| zepto wrote:
| > That's the only country I have any chance of impacting
| through criticism.
|
| So what you are doing here is activism.
| xtian wrote:
| What are the people claiming there's a genocide doing?
| pmoriarty wrote:
| From HN's Guidelines[1]:
|
| _" Please don't post insinuations about astroturfing,
| shilling, brigading, foreign agents and the like. It degrades
| discussion and is usually mistaken. If you're worried about
| abuse, email hn@ycombinator.com and we'll look at the data."_
|
| [1] - https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
| ilamont wrote:
| "Let's not get up in arms about supposed Chinese internet
| commenters or Russian fake news."
|
| https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27082353
| zepto wrote:
| So you think they are fabricating this?
| xtian wrote:
| I don't have any special insight, I'm just pointing out that
| Amnesty doesn't have a sterling record in this regard.
|
| The story is definitely in the US' favor geopolitically,
| though. Look up which countries have condemned China for
| human rights abuses in Xinjiang at the UN. I don't think
| there are any Muslim-majority countries on that list. Compare
| it to the list of UN countries which have condemned the
| genocide of Rohingya Muslims in Myanmar.
| davesque wrote:
| Seems like apples and oranges. What does any country really
| have to lose by criticizing Myanmar? Not much. On the other
| hand, criticizing China comes at a cost because they're a
| powerful country. So countries are probably less willing to
| do it in general even if they're ideologically aligned with
| doing it.
| zepto wrote:
| Seems like you are implying that the story is false because
| it benefits the US.
| xtian wrote:
| I'm implying that maybe given the US' history in the
| Middle East, its claims about the treatment of Muslims
| should be taken with one or more grains of salt.
| zepto wrote:
| Ok - so you do think they are lies.
| bingbong70 wrote:
| CIA has a long history of funding terrorists and
| attempting regime change operations around the world,
| China included.
|
| People that know the pattern can see the bullshit coming
| from a mile away.
|
| Why the US all of a sudden loves the Uyghur terrorists
| that it was bombing with impunity not too long ago...
|
| https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=m7id66fk9hY
| zepto wrote:
| The US was bombing Uighurs? That seems like total
| bullshit to me.
| xtian wrote:
| The US considered ETIM a terrorist organization before
| they became useful got reframed as freedom fighters:
| https://www.treasury.gov/press-center/press-
| releases/Pages/p...
| zepto wrote:
| So they didn't bomb 'Uighurs' because they are Uighurs.
| They classified a particular organization as terrorists.
|
| I.e. this is a false equivalence with what China is
| accused of.
| xtian wrote:
| The US removed this organization's terrorist designation
| and is now promoting them as the voice of the oppressed
| Uyhgur people. I'm not trying to draw any equivalence.
| bingbong70 wrote:
| >U.S. targets Chinese Uighur militants as well as Taliban
| fighters in Afghanistan
|
| https://www.nbcnews.com/news/world/u-s-targets-chinese-
| uighu...
|
| They were considered terrorists, then at some point
| during the Syrian regime change project, imported Uyghur
| fighters became useful allies to the US along with Al
| Nusra, Al Qaeda and ISIS.
|
| US is also currently rehabilitating an Al Qaeda
| militant's image to make him the 'Juan Guaido' of
| Syria...
|
| https://www.pbs.org/wgbh/frontline/article/abu-mohammad-
| al-j...
| zepto wrote:
| > in Afghanistan
|
| I think this is the relevant phrase, no?
| ilamont wrote:
| Article does not mention President-for-life Xi Jinping or his
| local Chinese Communist Party boss Chen Quanguo who carried out
| the mass detention and other abuses, against the advice of local
| officials. This 2019 NYT article, based on leaked documents,
| shows more details:
|
| _President Xi Jinping, the party chief, laid the groundwork for
| the crackdown in a series of speeches delivered in private to
| officials during and after a visit to Xinjiang in April 2014,
| just weeks after Uighur militants stabbed more than 150 people at
| a train station, killing 31. Mr. Xi called for an all-out
| "struggle against terrorism, infiltration and separatism" using
| the "organs of dictatorship," and showing "absolutely no mercy."
| ...
|
| ... The internment camps in Xinjiang expanded rapidly after the
| appointment in August 2016 of Chen Quanguo, a zealous new party
| boss for the region. He distributed Mr. Xi's speeches to justify
| the campaign and exhorted officials to "round up everyone who
| should be rounded up."
|
| The crackdown encountered doubts and resistance from local
| officials who feared it would exacerbate ethnic tensions and
| stifle economic growth. Mr. Chen responded by purging officials
| suspected of standing in his way, including one county leader who
| was jailed after quietly releasing thousands of inmates from the
| camps._
|
| https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2019/11/16/world/asia/ch...
|
| The most striking sentence in the NYT report is this one,
| describing the alleged motivations for the leak:
|
| _Though it is unclear how the documents were gathered and
| selected, the leak suggests greater discontent inside the party
| apparatus over the crackdown than previously known. The papers
| were brought to light by a member of the Chinese political
| establishment who requested anonymity and expressed hope that
| their disclosure would prevent party leaders, including Mr. Xi,
| from escaping culpability for the mass detentions._
| bigpumpkin wrote:
| Classic NYTimes taking quotes out of context. Note the reporter
| can't even quote full sentences but rather construct their own
| narrative with a very selective use of phrases in the Xi
| document.
|
| Where in the document did Xi direct the Chinese State against
| Uighurs? Full paragraph quotes, please.
| randomopining wrote:
| Guys like LeMao James will agree with whatever they say lol, as
| long as they keep their checks coming.
| [deleted]
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(page generated 2021-06-10 23:03 UTC)