[HN Gopher] Bosch opens German chip plant
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Bosch opens German chip plant
Author : nixass
Score : 650 points
Date : 2021-06-08 22:01 UTC (1 days ago)
(HTM) web link (www.reuters.com)
(TXT) w3m dump (www.reuters.com)
| notyourav wrote:
| Bosch is going all-in for IoT. CEO/Borad realized they need to
| produce own chips for that a couple of years back and made the
| single biggest invest decision. Automotive also uses lot's of
| ASICs. Too bad it's an LLC (GmbH), can't buy stocks.
| jiofih wrote:
| Their subsidiary in India is publicly traded.
| KingOfCoders wrote:
| Sadly no chips for dishwashers, I'm still waiting for my Miele
| dishwasher because no chips, no ETA.
| unholythree wrote:
| I remember stumbling across a bunch of pictures of Bosch getting
| a brand new IBM System/370-165 mainframe circa 1970 that were
| pretty great. I especially liked how all the IBM installers were
| doing manual labor with their ties on.
|
| link: https://www.bosch.com/stories/ibm-mainframe-computer-
| history... but I swear I saw more pictures somewhere.
| lispm wrote:
| Story:
|
| https://www.bosch.com/stories/bosch-chip-factory-dresden/
| pyronode wrote:
| ,m
| beebeepka wrote:
| Article is rather light on substance. What nodes, expected
| output, etc.
|
| Still though, I wish them good luck.
| qkgo wrote:
| I would be very happy to buy a car with the bare minimum number
| of chips, preferably none at all.
|
| No one offers it. Perhaps there will be a retro boutique Ferrari
| one day for the 0.01%. The rest needs tracking and surveillance.
| proxysna wrote:
| There is plenty of cars like that. You can import some russian
| Niva's or Vaz, daewoo's on the low-end. Subaru, Peugeot, Scoda
| & Kia's base models are relatively low-tech too. Please
| elaborate on "tracking and surveillance" part.
| amelius wrote:
| For context, Wikipedia has a list of IC fabrication plants:
|
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_semiconductor_fabricat...
|
| It looks like this is the third plant of Bosch. The technology
| node is 65nm.
| gpm wrote:
| I never realized Bosch was so big (77 billion euros in annual
| revenue). The corporate structure is also really interesting. 92%
| owned by charity, 7% by the bosch family, 0.01% by the this trust
| made up of old membership, family, and "eminent people from the
| industry", but that last 0.01% has 93% of the vote.
|
| I'm now curious how this all works in practice.
|
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_Bosch_GmbH#Corporate_af...
| purplepatrick wrote:
| The operative entity Robert Bosch GmbH is 94% owned by the
| Robert Bosch Stiftung (which is also a GmbH, but with "common
| good" focus, so receives some tax advantages, but it's not a
| proper foundation despite the name).
|
| The Stiftung has no voting rights, however. Its voting rights
| are with a KG entity, which in turn has no ownership in the
| operative auto supplier entity.
|
| The Stiftung receives a share of the auto supplier entity
| profit every year. Both entities operate separately, with the
| Stiftung pursuing various focus areas in healthcare, education,
| etc. The Stiftung also has a separate board whose mandate it is
| to execute on the Stiftung's mission. It has nothing to do with
| making operative decisions at the auto supplier.
|
| In 2020, the auto supplier paid approx 50% of its pretax profit
| in taxes.
| FabHK wrote:
| Foundation, not charity. I'd say that it is a good thing that
| they a) do not have to put profit maximisation above all else,
| and b) can then decide where to allocate the profits in
| accordance with their statutes.
|
| I like this part of the results:
|
| > For example, in 2004, the net profit was US$2.1 billion, but
| only US$78 million was distributed as dividends to
| shareholders. Of that figure, US$72 million was distributed to
| the charitable foundation, and the other US$6 million to Bosch
| family stockholders. The remaining 96% of the profits were
| invested back into the company. In its core automotive
| technology business, Bosch invests 9% of its revenue on
| research and development, nearly double the industry average of
| 4.7%.
| passerby1 wrote:
| >do not have to put profit maximisation above all else
|
| What makes you think they don't?
| rjzzleep wrote:
| I have had really good experiences with Bosch engineers
| helping in data center planning and physical access security.
| Very knowledgeable and quality work. Too bad the institution
| I was in would take those discussions present it to
| competitors who would promise the same with worse quality and
| deliver neither quality nor the same content.
|
| I was told however, that nowadays, due to a lot of
| acquisitions it's really hard to tell what kind of quality
| you get when it says Bosch on the box.
| adventured wrote:
| > do not have to put profit maximisation above all else
|
| Neither private nor public businesses have to put profit
| maximization above all else. It's entirely a myth that that
| is a legal requirement or responsibility.
|
| That is especially the case for private companies (ie most
| businesses), which further do not typically have the pressure
| of huge numbers of shareholders or large institutional
| investors / funds.
|
| Sometimes one might wish a company would actually focus on
| sustainable profitability, not just on the short-term
| appearance of profitability. You'll routinely find
| incompetent management that does a poor job of focusing on
| sustainable profitability at all, and the business always
| suffers for it. From IBM to GE. Instead, their management put
| a focus on financial engineering - creating a conveniently
| expedient fake profile of profitability, while the bottom
| rotted out from under them.
|
| Berkshire Hathaway by contrast - a $500 billion company - has
| openly pointed out to shareholders for 40-50 years now that
| they had no intention of pursuing a strategy focused on
| merely maximizing profit above all else. Simultaneously they
| have one of the greatest records of the last ~200 years for
| business performance. Berkshire knows the winning formula is
| to focus on the long-term and focus on having healthy
| businesses (which always means not only focusing on
| profitability), that the opposite is like a high sugar diet,
| maybe a bit of fun in the short run, and it'll kill you in
| the long run.
|
| Most businesses that last a very long time and generate great
| returns operate more like Berkshire Hathaway, rather than the
| opposite (and certainly during their heyday they do, which
| may provide fuel to last a long time even as they rot). There
| are a seeming infinite number of ways a major corporation can
| try to focus on profitability at the expense of all else, and
| that's always a mistake. Smart, long-term thinking managers
| know that. If you find a company that actually focuses on
| profitability above all else, sell and don't look back, it
| won't end well; it never does. Focusing on profitability
| above all else means paying all of your best employees very
| poorly, which means you'll always be starved for talent and
| your business will fail given time.
|
| There is a large amount of nuance involved in operating a
| for-profit business. Choosing to focus on the long-term vs
| short-term, financial engineering vs investing for the
| future, sacrificing shorter-term profits for a healthier
| longer-term business. The best businesses typically focus on
| the longer-term, not the shorter-term, and do not focus just
| on how they can blow out quarterly earnings or max out their
| profits here and now (inevitably that catches up with the
| business, and it all implodes).
| smeyer wrote:
| >Foundation, not charity.
|
| I'm no expert on German stiftungs, but I tend to think of
| foundations as a subset of charities and that "not charity"
| wouldn't be quite right.
| shkkmo wrote:
| Foundations are defined more by structure than by purpose.
| Some are charities and some are inheritance tax avoidance
| vehicles.
| qznc wrote:
| Their own website uses ,,foundation" and ,,charitable
| activities": https://www.bosch-stiftung.de/en/what-we-do
| rapsey wrote:
| And the actual reason c) avoiding all kinds of wealth taxes
| and public scrutiny. Foundations are the corner stone of
| wealth preservation strategies for rich people. If they could
| not do this the forbes rich people list would probably look
| much different and we may even see a trillionaire or two.
| jeffreygoesto wrote:
| Actually, it was a mix. Robert Bosch did not trust his
| family or board to run a sustainable business for long, but
| he also really was having some altruistic ideals.
|
| [0] https://www.bosch.com/stories/origin-robert-bosch-
| stiftung/
| asddubs wrote:
| >do not have to put profit maximisation above all else
|
| too bad that despite that they still decided to help vw fudge
| the emissions tests numbers
| andrei_says_ wrote:
| Is it possible that not everyone in the company had
| transparency and decision making power on this?
| qznc wrote:
| (Bosch employee for three years)
|
| The Bosch family is not involved. I only notice them via public
| news essentially.
|
| It is nice to know that a big part of our profits goes into a
| charitable foundation instead of faceless stock holders.
|
| Not being a public company means nobody cares about quarterly
| results. There is rather a yearly rhythm. The downside is that
| Bosch cannot get big cash infusions quickly. In case of a
| pandemic, this is an additional risk. Worked out though.
| Dumbdo wrote:
| > Not being a public company means nobody cares about
| quarterly results.
|
| And this is why I like Bosch so much (as an employee for a
| very similar amount of time). The working climate in most
| places is relaxed compared to most competitors and there's
| less focus on looking great in random metrics every quarter,
| which makes actually doing your work easier.
|
| > The downside is that Bosch cannot get big cash infusions
| quickly. In case of a pandemic, this is an additional risk.
| Worked out though.
|
| Yep, it actually worked out much better than anticipated.
| They were able to generate a free cash flow of 5 billion
| Euro. AFAIK that was mainly because Bosch has a very good
| reputation of being financially stable. (Here is the source
| in corporate speech https://www.bosch-
| presse.de/pressportal/de/en/bosch-stays-on...)
|
| Btw, I remember your nickname from your lobsters post about
| software architecture. Pretty cool to see fellow Boschlers
| active here or on lobsters!
| RC_ITR wrote:
| Like a lot of Family-owned European companies (Ikea comes to
| mind as well), it's a thinly veiled employment opportunity for
| the heirs that does very little actual charity. The family is
| heavily involved in board selection, & it's really just an
| elaborate tax scheme.
|
| Seriously, look at their 'project list,' a film award is #2!
|
| https://www.bosch-stiftung.de/en/project-search
| bobsmooth wrote:
| What's wrong with supporting the arts?
| andyana wrote:
| I don't think anything is, but it's a low level endeavor
| for $77b company, no?
|
| I mean, the arts are something I support, because it is
| something I can afford. If I had more money, Id probably
| want to try harder to make a difference.
| toomanybeersies wrote:
| But if everybody tried as hard as they could to "make a
| difference", then nobody would be supporting the arts.
| chki wrote:
| I mean it's one project out of 145 featured on their
| website. Looking at their financial statement for 2019
| it's certainly a very small amount compared to other
| projects which include for example funding medical
| research.
| rcMgD2BwE72F wrote:
| And emissions-cheating devices.
| andyana wrote:
| I didn't look at the rest, but the that they would even
| put that just makes it more odd. It would be like me
| putting "voluntarily picks up litter when I go for a
| walk" on my list of charity activities (which doesn't
| exist because, if anything, I don't do enough for the
| world to warrant tooting my horn).
|
| That's just my opinion, though. I'm happy they are doing
| something rather than nothing.
| ketzu wrote:
| I don't really see the problem with an art based cultural
| exchange grant. Also the other projects don't seem terrible
| either. Could you elaborate?
| Ericson2314 wrote:
| But that must be contasted from the value the unpaid taxes
| would have created.
| scoopertrooper wrote:
| Governments also issue similar grants.
| Ericson2314 wrote:
| I should have "democratic legitimacy". Rich institutions
| evading taxes to do philanthropy is form of privatization
| the people didn't necessarily sign up for.
| hef19898 wrote:
| You can have both, just be the former royal ruling house
| of Bavaria. They managed to et a law in 1923 that
| tranferred most of their property into a public
| foundation, outside public control. Basically, they got
| to retain the majority of their properity without any
| strings attached. Law is still upheld and defended by
| Bavarian parliament. Heck, they even have the right to
| live in parts of all the famous Bavarian castles. Also,
| this foundation is owning 12,000 ha of forest. All of
| that in addition to the stuff they privately own.
| Ericson2314 wrote:
| Well, at least the results their were explicit in the law
| --- the representatives of the people were directly
| consulted about the matter at hand. The phillanthropy-
| privatization process elsewhere is quite subtle and I am
| not sure many people have followed it end to end.
| hef19898 wrote:
| Well, in 1923 t was more a deal between the king deposed
| by the 1918 post-WW1 revolution and conservative
| politicians. Since then, well, it is something we
| Bavarians don't talk about much. It basically is a state-
| funded, oversight free way to pay stipends to the former
| Bavarian ruling house. For longer now than the Bavarian
| _kingdom_ ever existed.
|
| The Wittelsbacher family got of easier so, than the
| Habsburg rulers (they lost everything, Austria even went
| so far to abolish every single noble title) and the
| Hohenzollern of Prussia. I guess it helps not being in
| the main crosshairs of the Entente back then.
| lmm wrote:
| But there's a lot more oversight (from opposition
| parties, media, etc.) to ensure those grants are being
| done fairly.
| tengbretson wrote:
| If you're the founder of a transformative company maybe
| funding a couple generations of your family's fun projects is
| a good deal.
| vlovich123 wrote:
| Why?
| gscott wrote:
| So your great-great-great grandchildren don't have to
| work at McDonald's. Most people never think about leaving
| a backstop for more then one generation or they let the
| Government take so much in taxes at death it all has to
| be sold. Great for the government but bad for future
| generations of your family who don't have the financial
| means to quit a job to try a startup because they have to
| make rent and run on a mouse-wheel all of their life to
| stay one step ahead of the next bill.
| CPLX wrote:
| Seems sort of better than the alternative though isn't it, ie
| the American model where industrial companies are endlessly
| looted by management, investment bankers, and private equity
| firms via a never ending series of mergers and divestments
| and massive debt loads.
|
| It may not be charity, but at least it's stable.
| rsj_hn wrote:
| It's not an either-or question. The US has similar style
| tax-avoidance structures that may sponsor a little-league
| team or classical music concert to maintain their public
| image. And Europe has their own corporate raiders -- did
| you follow the latest drama between Porsche and VW? That
| failed takeover bid forced out the Porsche CEO but at least
| he had a $200M golden parachute.
| realityking wrote:
| Calling it "the latest drama" might be accurate (I don't
| think there's more recent drama) but it obscures the fact
| that this particular drama was resolved 12 years ago with
| VW buying Porsche and the Porsche shareholders becoming
| the largest VW shareholders.
| chki wrote:
| > it's a thinly veiled employment opportunity for the heirs
| that does very little actual charity
|
| I'm looking at their financial report for the year 2019 and
| that's just not true. They are a very complex organization
| and simply looking at one film award project and calling the
| whole thing a scam is very wrong and frankly lazy.
| RC_ITR wrote:
| A charity that is receiving $300mn+ a year in untaxed
| dividends spends $125mn of that on:
|
| _Personnel and other operating expenses attributable to
| administration + Financial expenses, depreciation and
| amortization, and changes in provisions_
|
| and you're just cool with that?
| chaostheory wrote:
| > Like a lot of Family-owned European companies (Ikea comes
| to mind as well), it's a thinly veiled employment opportunity
| for the heirs that does very little actual charity. The
| family is heavily involved in board selection, & it's really
| just an elaborate tax scheme.
|
| I wonder if the Bill & Melinda Gates Foundation has the same
| criticisms?
| Quarrel wrote:
| No, because they're explicitly giving away all their funds,
| not passing it on to the next generation, nor leaving it in
| a permanent trust.
| mikl wrote:
| It's not too unusual in Europe. Another big company run by a
| charitable foundation is Carlsberg:
| https://www.carlsberggroup.com/investor-relations/shareholde...
|
| The Carlsberg Foundation spends its proceeds from Carlsberg on
| funding science and arts, so if you want to drink beer with a
| good conscience...
| ww520 wrote:
| In estate planning, there's a saying, "own nothing but control
| everything." The approach is to transfer 99% ownership of the
| private company into a non-profit trust and to retain 1%
| ownership which has the controlling vote. The 99% non-profit
| trust has tax benefit and asset protection benefit. You only
| have to pay estate tax on the 1% of what you own when passing
| down to next generation. When someone sues you for your asset,
| you only have to pay 1% worth of the money since that what you
| own. But you still retain control of the company and reap
| benefit from it (directing dividend payment, hiring relatives,
| etc).
|
| Edit: a more proof version is to put the 1% into another entity
| like a C-corp or a trust that you control. Estate planners have
| a field day dreaming up these schemes.
| b9a2cab5 wrote:
| And the only public shares are the weak voting ones, so in
| order for the lawsuit winner (or the state for taxes) to reap
| their returns they lose the voting power of the shares. I see
| a lot of the newer IPO'd companies using this type of scheme.
| KirillPanov wrote:
| Do you mean to say that the family-owned shares _lose_
| their extra voting power when transferred?
|
| A bankruptcy judge would not hesitate to void this clause
| if those shares were being transferred by virtue of
| bankruptcy seizure.
| fxtentacle wrote:
| No, it's actually common, at least in Germany. You can
| have a clause that allows the other shareholders to force
| someone out if they argue that it is necessary to retain
| the stability of the company. You have to pay the forced-
| out investor for his/her shares, though.
| Xylakant wrote:
| I've seen that in multiple founding contracts for private
| companies and no lawyer ever flagged that. I doubt a
| judge will collect it. The mechanism is usually called
| Einziehung der Geschaftsanteile, basically the remaining
| shareholders can force-collect the shares of the bankrupt
| shareholder. A suitable compensation is required. See for
| example this random reference (German) https://kuhlen-
| berlin.de/glossar/einziehung-von-gesch%C3%A4f...
|
| The shares immediately loose all voting rights in that
| process.
|
| The reason is to prevent a potentially hostile party from
| entering the shareholder group.
|
| Edit: Here's a better reference with an example what such
| a clause in the companies charter could look like:
| https://gmbhg.kommentar.de/Abschnitt-2/Einziehung-von-
| Gescha...
| [deleted]
| FeelTheBerns wrote:
| Our Bosch dishwasher is absolutely incredible. Hands down best
| appliance I've ever owned.
| Trollmann wrote:
| Bosch household appliances aren't built by Bosch but BSH [1]
| instead. (They are still great)
|
| [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BSH_Hausgerate
| Dumbdo wrote:
| But BSH is a direct child company of Bosch, you can even get
| those products for a discount as a (automotive) Bosch
| employee. Most Bosch divisions are separate child companies.
|
| It's just that BSH is very small part of Bosch compared to
| the automotive parts of Bosch.
| megablast wrote:
| My too dishwashers are pretty good too. Ive had them for ages,
| since I was born.
| PhantomGremlin wrote:
| All appliances have problems. E.g.
|
| _In 2009, Bosch issued a voluntary recall on certain model
| dishwashers that could overheat and pose a fire risk to
| consumers. In 2013, a second global recall was issued and
| covered more than five million machines._
| https://www.classaction.org/bosch-dishwasher-fire
|
| But 2013 was so long ago in Internet years, wasn't it?
|
| We own a Bosch dishwasher. We bought it knowing about their
| previous problems, because it was very quiet. The only thing I
| dislike about it is it insists on beeping every 10 minutes
| after completing a load. STFU, I know the dishes are clean!!!
|
| Ironically, our previous non-Bosch dishwasher caught fire.
| Literally.
| aitchnyu wrote:
| Wish they took a page from Peopleware and make a softer buzz.
| The authors insisted everybody at the office put cotton over
| their office phones so they are not jarring each time they
| ring.
| formerly_proven wrote:
| In addition to this new 300 mm fab, Bosch already has one 150 mm
| and one 200 mm fab in Germany. These are mostly for analog stuff,
| SiC power electronics and MEMS.
| timdaub wrote:
| Hey, somehow I once did an internship at a subsidiary of Bosch.
| It's a super cool company structure! Check it on e.g. Wikipedia,
| it's such that Bosch's profits are sent to a non-profit that
| spends it on e g. education.
| rcMgD2BwE72F wrote:
| Bosch was fined EUR90+ millions for its role in the dieselgate
| scandal, too.
|
| https://amp.dw.com/en/bosch-pays-90-million-euro-fine-over-d...
| EveYoung wrote:
| Yes, they messed up but which cooperation hasn't been
| involved in some scandal.
| B1FF_PSUVM wrote:
| https://www.google.com/search?q=bosch+cheating+software
|
| Oh well, now they can do it in hardware, too. Huzzah.
| B1FF_PSUVM wrote:
| Here: as a badge of honor, I'd like to garner a few more
| downvotes from fans of criminal malfeasance.
|
| I'm deeply sorry that the great tradition of German engineering
| has been besmirched by swindlers, and those swindlers have not
| been roundly denounced by Germans themselves.
| anunnymouse wrote:
| Remember that time you did something wrong? I'll make sure to
| bring that up next time I read an article about something you
| did, regardless of what what you did wrong or what the
| article is about.
| bernulli wrote:
| Not a unique German thing, I am afraid,
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diesel_emissions_scandal
|
| "A practice by diesel vehicles including the Volvo S60,
| Renault's Espace Energy and the Jeep Renegade, exceeded legal
| European emission limits for nitrogen oxide (NO x) by more
| than 10 times.[1] ICCT and ADAC showed the biggest deviations
| from Volvo, Renault, Jeep, Hyundai, Citroen and Fiat."
| shkkmo wrote:
| I suspect you are being downvoted for the low effort comment
| that is just a google search link with no context or
| commentary. I don't think it particularly has anything to do
| with the content since few people are going to expend the
| effort figuring out what you are talking about.
| coolspot wrote:
| 1B is like three last-gen ASML machines, good start I guess, but
| chip manufacturing can easily absorb 10x of that.
|
| As I understand it, there are no plans to turn Europe into a chip
| leader, they just want to protect automotive supply chain.
| sangnoir wrote:
| Isn't ASML a dutch company? How is Europe not a leader? Unless
| you mean in wafer production/fabs or being on the forefront of
| shrinking process-nodes.
|
| Europe is behind in fabs and has historically underfunded the
| industry - understandable, as it had worked fine for a long
| time, with globalization, long supply chains and JIT
| inventories. Then came nativism, "Tariff Man" and a global
| pandemic, and Europe had to rethink its long-term strategy.
| jmrm wrote:
| I want to add other reason: It's astronomically expensive and
| really slow to grow.
|
| TSMC started in 1987, and AFAIK, the government of Taiwan
| invest in the company to help their grow.
|
| EU started some years ago, investing in R&D in this sector,
| some years ago. We need to wait at least a decade to see a
| real impact starting to grow with this initiatives.
| systemvoltage wrote:
| There is more that goes inside a Fab than a litho tool.
| Granted it's a major one, but a fabs has 400 process steps.
|
| See KLA Tencor, Applied Materials, TEL, Advantest, ASM,
| Hirata, Fujitsu, Mitsubishi, etc probably dozens more.
| baybal2 wrote:
| Yes, and "dozens more" needs to be changed to hundreds
| more, with most not being known even to industry insiders.
| Lots of them are single vendor globally, and are Taiwanese.
|
| For example, FOUP cleaning machines are made only by Gudeng
| (as well as ultra low particle FOUPs themselves,) and don't
| think that "cleaning machine" is any much less
| sophisticated than other equipment. It's the size of a
| truck, made of space age materials to survive fluorines,
| and costs many megabucks.
| Cthulhu_ wrote:
| I'm not an expert so this is entirely armchair reasoning, but
| I can think of a few factors.
|
| We don't have a culture of crazy investors, nor one of
| hypergrowth - I mean how many US startups went from nothing
| to a $1B valuation or takeover in a year, maybe two after
| they first started making waves?
|
| Wages are not as crazy. Neither is cost of living, but it
| does mean the most talented people will pursue a career where
| the pay matches. Anyway when you consider things like income
| taxes going to a government that doesn't spend more on the
| military than any other country, socialist policies, and sane
| health care, it does even out a lot.
|
| It's not as much of a union as they want to make believe.
| Anything that grows to a certain size will deal with a lot of
| international headaches. Freedom of movement and trade has
| made things a lot easier (something the UK wasn't aware of
| apparently, probably still stuck in English exceptionalism,
| and they're getting fucked over left and right because of it
| at the moment).
|
| I mean one project going on right now is "they" are trying to
| build a EU focused AWS / GCE competitor, but instead of
| empowering or investing in a single company, or letting the
| market work for a company to rise in the ranks, they're
| making it some big international semi-government affair,
| where each country is fighting hard to protect and promote
| their interests. It's turned into not a technical or business
| challenge, but a political one. I mean I'm a complete fuckwit
| myself but give me a few billion in spending money and
| absolute power and I'll build you a secure EU cloud provider.
| sangnoir wrote:
| Random counterpoints: how many US _hardware_ startups
| managed to have hypergrowth. How many US hardware startups
| are involved in chip fabrication, period?
|
| Taiwan doesn't have either crazy investors or hypergrowth.
| I suspect the chip hardware business requires many years of
| steady-but-compounding growth.
|
| As for the AWS/GCE competitor: I suspect the policy goal is
| not to have one platform/product in X years that will soon
| be outdated. Rather, it's to nurture and grow a competitive
| domestic ecosystem that is self-sufficient. That way, you
| may have dozens of AWSes in thr future that keep you on the
| leading edge (not just inplementors)
| mschuster91 wrote:
| > Isn't ASML a dutch company? How is Europe not a leader?
|
| The same reasons why the US doesn't have much presence any
| more:
|
| 1) Environment protection and emission laws: just look at the
| Silicon Valley, half of it is a Superfund site from decades
| of silicon manufacturing.
|
| 2) Lack of skilled and experienced (!) engineers
|
| 3) For Europe: lack of access to the many billions of dollars
| that a fab build requires
|
| 4) Cost: No matter what you do, simply alone due to wages,
| real estate and raw material cost, US and European-made
| components will always be more expensive than Asia-made. The
| military can afford it to specify "homemade" as requirement,
| but everyone else will be going with whoever is the cheapest
| option. Yes we have a bit of a supply stretch at the moment
| ("thanks" to shitcoin miners and fuck-ups by automotive), but
| this will even out sooner or later and the prices return to
| their old normal level, which means a domestic production
| won't be cost-effective any more, which in turn means it's
| hard to get funding for such a project from banks.
|
| The only way out is _massive_ government investments and
| subsidies.
| ovi256 wrote:
| Your phrasing "fuck-ups by automotive" brought to mind
| something: if automotive didn't fuck-up, would that have
| reduced the shortages ? In the automotive sector, yes, of
| course, but not the general shortages, surely ? Would we'd
| just have shortages elsewhere, notably in home electronics,
| which is the industry that picked up all the spare
| production capacity that automotive freed.
|
| Is one better than the other ?
| mschuster91 wrote:
| The problem is the ripple effect that automotive has
| across societies. It's one thing if shitcoin miners or
| gamers have to wait for GPUs, but when the automotive
| industry with its many millions of employees and in
| sequence its supply chain with even more millions of
| employees is grinding to a halt, the impact is immense.
|
| If anything, corona has shown us how extremely unhealthy
| the dependency of modern society on the automotive
| industry is. We need to wean ourselves off of that, and
| the sooner we begin the better - climate change is the
| next catastrophe waiting in the starting block.
| throwawaysea wrote:
| ASML is a supplier for one part of the overall process yes,
| but their core innovation is also somewhat limited. Their EUV
| technology is actually based on a license from the US DOE
| (from 1999: https://www.eetimes.com/u-s-gives-ok-to-asml-on-
| euv-effort/), as part of a consortium of companies that were
| allowed to benefit from early US R&D into EUV. This is also
| why the US is able to require ASML to not export EUV machines
| to China. In my opinion from limited knowledge, being a
| leader means also being able to change the industry in
| significant ways. You could argue ASML has contributed to
| that but I think their dependence on US research indicates
| they aren't independently set up to be a leader in this
| space.
| Slartie wrote:
| How can a patent from 1999 still provide any leverage?
| Isn't the lifetime of US patents (or patents in general in
| most countries) limited to 20 years, so this patent should
| have expired in 2019?
| Cthulhu_ wrote:
| I'm no expert, but I'd say that patent is only one of
| many patented inventions needed to turn it into a working
| product. That is, say the patent expired, anyone could
| make an EUV laser, but that in itself does not produce
| nanometer scale transistors.
| mpol wrote:
| I can imagine the leverage is 20 years of refining their
| technology. Sure, other companies could have invested in
| developing the technology in the last 5 years, and start
| selling or using it in 2019, but I assume it takes a lot
| of refinement to have this work nicely.
| xxpor wrote:
| >U.S. Undersecretary of Energy Ernest Moniz said, "if the
| EUV technology proves viable, ASML has agreed to build a
| factory in the U.S., similar to its Netherlands facility,
| as well as to establish an American research and
| development center. The factory will supply 100 percent of
| all ASML's sales in the United States."
|
| Did this actually happen? Does Intel buy ASML machines?
| throwawaysea wrote:
| I am not actually sure, but ASML does have a US R&D and
| manufacturing presence. Their largest site is in CT
| (https://www.asml.com/en/company/about-
| asml/locations/wilton-...). As for Intel, they bought a
| 15% stake in ASML in 2012
| (https://www.reuters.com/article/us-intel-asml-
| idUSBRE86819B2...) and ASML is have suspected to have
| sold machines to Intel subsequently
| (https://www.kitguru.net/components/graphic-cards/anton-
| shilo...). However, Intel may have not needed as many
| machines because they were able to avoid depending on EUV
| for some nodes (https://www.reuters.com/article/asml-
| intel-idUSL8N1AY2H4).
| patentatt wrote:
| ASML and ARM. Even if ARM is now owned by SoftBank, it's
| still HQ'd in Europe, right? Combine the best lithography
| machines and the leading architecture and Europe probably
| should be dominant. Interesting that they choose instead to
| export so much of the value chain around the world.
| marcodiego wrote:
| Complete outsider doubt: every time I hear about chip
| manufacturing, somebody talks about ASML machines. Considering
| that many of the chips we use are built by ASML machines, why
| isn't Netherlands a top chip manufacturer?
| icegreentea2 wrote:
| The skills and risks in different parts of the chain are
| different. Having access to excellent photo-lithography
| machines is not enough to guarantee having an excellent
| foundry or process - that much should be evident from ASML
| supplying TSMC and Intel, and observing Intel's struggles
| with 10nm.
|
| The machines ASML produces allow you make ultra precise and
| tiny patterns of material. You still need to choose what
| those materials are, figure out how you're going to create
| the material (as in what dopants are you adding in what
| quantities), what your geometry actually is, and on and on
| and on.
| [deleted]
| fxtentacle wrote:
| Did you hear about integrated circuits in school?
|
| Did anyone offer you a course on how to design ICs in
| university?
|
| I heard that Singapore NTU has 100+ graduates with PCB and IC
| design skills each year. If I was a chip-foundry-to-be, I'd
| build my factory where the employees are.
| tlamponi wrote:
| > Did anyone offer you a course on how to design ICs in
| university?
|
| Yes, standard courses in Computer Engineering, at least
| here at Vienna's Institute of Technology, which with comp.
| eng. and masters in similar fields (just a slight focus
| shift to, e.g., the modelling/verification side) there's
| about the same order of magnitudes of students graduating
| per year too.
|
| Chip foundries do not go where their employees graduate,
| but where they get gov incentives for building their fabs.
| kuschku wrote:
| Processor design was a required class during my
| undergraduate, and from what I've heard several other
| universities have very similar classes.
| kalleboo wrote:
| I went to university in Sweden and they promoted a VLSI
| track
| Cthulhu_ wrote:
| It sounds like a chicken / egg problem. We had some in
| school, as part of the software engineering curriculum. The
| electrical engineering department probably touched on it as
| well.
| LatteLazy wrote:
| It's a dirty, dangerous industry. I imagine that running it
| in the neatherlands would be more expensive. That's one of
| the reasons it went abroad in the first place.
| madengr wrote:
| They probably don't have the manpower. The Asian countries
| produce hardware engineers at 10x that of the west, and with
| a much larger population, have a vast talent pool.
| pjc50 wrote:
| There's no especial reason in a globalized economy for the
| different parts in a tooling chain to be right next to each
| other. Germany already makes specialized machine tooling that
| gets sent all over the world to be actually used, this is
| just a more specialized example.
|
| The Netherlands is a very dense country with an agricultural
| economy, and fabs take up a lot of land and dirty a lot of
| water; but nonetheless, there is already a fab there,
| belonging to NXP (formerly Philips)
| https://www.nxp.com/company/about-nxp/worldwide-
| locations/ne...
| littlecranky67 wrote:
| Just a supplier of certain machines for the process doesn't
| make you a successful foundry. I.e. ASML heavily relies on
| Laser technology by Trumpf Werkzeugmaschinen (a German
| company) - which besides Laser technology is mostly in the
| sheet metal machine business. Focus on what you can do best,
| they say.
| kalium-xyz wrote:
| Philips is fractured and a shadow of its former self. They
| used to both make the machines and the chips now its ASML and
| NXP
| berkes wrote:
| And ASMI too.
|
| Signify is another subsidiary, the former lightning
| division from Philips.
|
| Philips itself is doing very well in medical equipment. A
| sensible, sustainable and profitable pivot: in an age where
| every Chinese factory can churn out toasters or radio's
| with near zero margins, it makes little sense to remain
| worlds' leader in toasters or radio's.
| Cthulhu_ wrote:
| Can't fault that argument. I mean Philips made and
| invented some nice products - CD's, LED lighting, my
| wake-up light - but when it comes to production they just
| can't keep up, and I'm confident the profit margin on
| electronics like that has completely tanked. Especially
| when their designs and inventions quickly get copied
| shamelessly.
|
| Corporate espionage is still a big thing; my girlfriend
| told me a story about a company presenting their new
| device at a trade show (iirc it was a jewelry casting
| machine or something). The Chinese competitor that had a
| stand not far from them had their stand empty, but on the
| third day there was a replica of that same casting
| machine at half the price.
|
| Medical equipment is a lot more specialized and probably
| harder to duplicate, and maybe more importantly, not a
| race to the bottom.
| baybal2 wrote:
| > in an age where every Chinese factory can churn out
| toasters or radio's with near zero margins, it makes
| little sense to remain worlds' leader in toasters or
| radio's.
|
| Surprise for you, Chinese factory can't run with near
| zero margins.
|
| Electronics industry been on the downsizing trend in
| China for the last 10 years.
|
| It now costs less to hire labour in flyover states in
| USA, than South China.
|
| Chinese factories themselves are rushing to relocate to
| South Asia.
| berkes wrote:
| > Surprise for you, Chinese factory can't run with near
| zero margins.
|
| I am aware of that. But when they can "outsource" most
| R&D (read: copy or steal IP) a lot of businesses have a
| very hard time competing against those margins.
|
| For example, when all the costs you make is plastics (raw
| materials), amortisation on your machines, wages and
| electricity, and some Ali-express fees, you can compete
| with a company like Lego easily. Because Lego has those
| same costs, but also marketing, R&D, legal, QA,
| distribution and so on.
|
| I'm not saying that any of those are "wrong" per se.
| Maybe Lego is in the wrong business or on a dead end, and
| maybe that is not bad: IDK. But I do see why many
| companies are pulling out of this race-to-the-bottom and
| either becoming "almost entirely marketing" (Nike,
| Adidas, etc.) or pivoting to niches with other easier to
| defend moats, like Philips.
| patentatt wrote:
| Also what kind of protections do low level employees have
| in China? If an employee is harmed on the job, does the
| company have many repercussions? Can employees organize
| and negotiate as a group? What about healthcare costs? Or
| taxes? If the factory owner is in with the local
| government and/or the party, do they have to pay much in
| the way of taxes? What about public accountability? Are
| companies publicly listed and subject to financial
| disclosure rules? It's my second and third-hand
| understanding that all of these factors contribute to an
| exceedingly low labor cost in China. I think we enjoy
| cheap stuff at the cost of supporting a pretty dismal
| situation for many ordinary Chinese.
| MangoCoffee wrote:
| different skillset. making equipment and running a profitable
| fab is like Apple and Orange.
|
| Intel with its years of experiences in semis industry and yet
| Intel is not in the semis equipment business and Intel was in
| the very early stage of semis industry.
| skrebbel wrote:
| Given the amount of money ASML is printing, they could easily
| build a decent fab that will over time compete directly with
| eg TSMC. But I doubt they have the balls to compete against
| their customers, which is a shame.
|
| (by "easily", of course, I mean "super hard but possible").
| If there's any European company that knows how to source and
| train people who can operate fabs, it's ASML.
| amelius wrote:
| > But I doubt they have the balls to compete against their
| customers, which is a shame.
|
| Regulators will block this.
| skrebbel wrote:
| Why? The EU very much wants to be able to make their own
| chips. The world is clearly moving towards each bloc
| wanting to be more self-sufficient.
| amelius wrote:
| There are other semiconductor plants in the EU.
| Cthulhu_ wrote:
| Doesn't have to be ASML itself, they can branch off and
| start a company near it though and develop close ties to it
| and the local university.
| dzonga wrote:
| they can easily do that. that's why I also think Intel will
| turn things around with it's fabs. You don't need to be
| manufacturing the latest node chips. Just a couple generations
| old, will do the trick for automotive, defense and non
| fashionable electronics.
|
| also somehow people forget chips these days are really
| powerful.
| eb0la wrote:
| > also somehow people forget chips these days are really
| powerful.
|
| Only powerful ;-) ? Just found out some FPGAs have embedded
| processor cores with them (no need to generate them like in
| 2000) just because their customers already need that and they
| have enough gates to use.
|
| Other recent stuff like in the RPI2040 microcontroller is a
| way to code your own "independent" IO sub-programs that run
| in parallel by a dedicated procesor that does not interfere
| in your code.
|
| Hardware never stops to amaze me.
| [deleted]
| brnt wrote:
| This factory won't be purchasing last gen stuff, more like 10
| year old gen machines (I heard 25ish nm machines).
| kenhwang wrote:
| Other sources[1] say its 65nm, and the chips won't even be
| used for automotive purposes.
|
| [1]: https://www.electronicsweekly.com/news/business/bosch-
| opens-...
| nfin wrote:
| the text says otherwise regarding automotive: "with output
| of automotive chips to follow from September" (so, you're
| correct for now until september, but sep. is soon already I
| would say)
| sorenjan wrote:
| Here's a source from Bosch themselves saying "up to 65 nm",
| which I assume means 65 nm as the smallest feature. They're
| making "Application-specific integrated circuits (ASICs),
| and power semiconductors" mainly for the automotive
| industry, so they're probably counting on that being
| enough. And what a great time to start production.
|
| https://www.bosch-presse.de/pressportal/de/en/300-mm-
| wafer-f...
| lallysingh wrote:
| They'll probably making chips for Bosch parts. IIUC they
| don't do much advanced computational stuff.
| stefan_ wrote:
| No ones using last-gen for automotive.
| antattack wrote:
| Tesla is using Navi 23 RDNA in their new S and X models.
| That's 7nm chip. NN accelerators will likely move to 16nm or
| better soon. However, you're right that most automotive chips
| and power electronics use 180 or 65nm process.
|
| EDIT: Mobile Eye, EyeQ5 ADAS SoC is already 7nm FinFET.
| GloriousKoji wrote:
| Maybe for computational stuff but older/bigger process nodes
| are still very capable (and possibly better) for power
| related things.
| iseanstevens wrote:
| Most cars still default to incandescent bulbs for many uses.
| Few cars attempt to understand the situation around them,
| beyond a rear camera and maybe ultrasonic reverse sensor for
| parking. Engine control units have gotten more complicated,
| but unless high end or EV, It's mostly mid 90s tech.
| Disagree?
| jiofih wrote:
| I dare you find an incandescent on any car designed in the
| last five years. It's insanely inefficient.
| cbg0 wrote:
| I think he's actually talking about halogen bulbs.
| developer93 wrote:
| And at least in Europe, outlawed since about 10 years
| [deleted]
| coolspot wrote:
| I was just establishing frame of reference for the investment
| amout.
|
| 1B is barely news-worthy.
| antattack wrote:
| Bosch started the project way before chip shortage, around 2017
| [1] and opening it right on schedule. This is the second factory
| of this type, good foresight by Germans and EU.
|
| [1]https://www.reuters.com/article/bosch-factory/robert-
| bosch-t...
| jonplackett wrote:
| Also will not help with the chip shortage anyway
|
| > The Bosch plant will make specialist power-management chips
| and Application Specific Integrated Circuits (ASICs) that are
| designed to carry out a single task, such as triggering a car's
| automatic braking system.
|
| > It will not however address shortages of products like
| microcontrollers which have forced auto makers to halt
| production and are expected by industry leaders and analysts to
| extend into next year.
| pjc50 wrote:
| Capacity is somewhat fungible, so if this enables Bosch to
| manufacture their ASICs in-house that frees up capacity
| somewhere else for other devices.
| gnzoidberg wrote:
| This
| AceJohnny2 wrote:
| > _good foresight_
|
| I'd call it luck.
|
| I doubt that in the planning stages they could anticipate the
| auto industry order-then-Pandemic-cancel-then-order-again wave
| that messed up the logistics of the semiconductor industry.
| _ph_ wrote:
| The pandemic they couldn't have forseen of course, but it is
| good management to recognize that having their own production
| capacity makes them more independant from suppliers. "Modern
| management" far too often tries to optimize short term cost
| advantages and completely ignores long term considerations.
| Which comes of course from public companies reporting quarter
| numbers, as if those were an indicator how the company works.
| On the other side, there are decisions, like building your
| own fab, which increase costs short term, but long term are a
| huge benefit to the company.
| puchatek wrote:
| The foresight is more about EVs conquering the car market and
| what it would take to be part of that value chain
| ksec wrote:
| The old 40 / 28nm Fab capacity had been in very tight supply
| for _years_ even before the pandemic hit. This whole
| semiconductor shortage only happens to caught on by
| Mainstream Media now as they have a new direction to blame (
| TSMC ) along with politics of China.
|
| And chip being important to cars has been known for a long
| time with stories going back to 2013 within the industry. So
| you can at least infer that Bosch knew this for a long time.
| This is their second Fab and it was planned in 2017 and
| confirmed in 2018.
|
| It is like TSMC, all of a sudden _everyone_ talks about it.
| But in pre-2015 hardly anyone knew them or heard of it. Those
| that heard of it only thought they Fab chips for Nidia. It
| was Apple that bring them to the forefront.
|
| Sometimes I just think mainstream media is such an unreliable
| source of information I am wondering if there are any point
| reading them at all other than to gather the flow of current
| society sentiment.
| gameswithgo wrote:
| What is the mainstream media today? When did they blame
| TSMC?
|
| I don't know if the media I consume is "mainstream media"
| but I haven't seen anyone blame TSMC.
| imtringued wrote:
| Most of them blamed car manufacturers on improper
| implementations of JIT manufacturing. Toyota is fine
| because it has a stockpile of critical parts like
| semiconductors.
| redis_mlc wrote:
| > Sometimes I just think mainstream media is such an
| unreliable source of information
|
| CNN.com is very accurate for current Leftist/Marxist
| narratives.
|
| Oh, you meant real news - try NTD Media for that on
| Youtube.
| CrazyPyroLinux wrote:
| > Sometimes I just think mainstream media is such an
| unreliable source of information I am wondering if there
| are any point reading them at all
|
| Bingo. I forget the name for this law/effect, but at some
| point everyone runs across a story in the mainstream news
| about which you happen to be more knowledgeable than the
| author/reporter/"expert guest" and the veil is lifted for a
| moment and you think "wow they really don't have any idea
| what they're talking about!" But then they go on to trust
| the opinion of these same outlets on economics or foreign
| policy, etc.
|
| > other than to gather the flow of current society
| sentiment.
|
| Even this I wouldn't trust. Perhaps if you treat it loosely
| as "the zeitgeist of manufactured consent" or "what They
| _want_ you to think is the current society sentiment "
| lasagnaphil wrote:
| The name you're looking for is the Gell-Mann anmesia
| effect.
| kalium-xyz wrote:
| Sadly finding good sources is very hard to impossible.
| acjohnson55 wrote:
| From what I've read in the "mainstream media", TSMC is
| lauded for playing the king game with their foundry model,
| and pretty much everyone looks shitty for allowing
| themselves to become dependent on a single company on a
| seismically active, geopolitically threatened island.
| toomanybeersies wrote:
| No, but they likely realised the fragility of the
| semiconductor supply chain, and anticipated that a whole
| range of global events could cause logistical problems and
| shortages.
| antattack wrote:
| Deterioration of US-China (and US - Europe too) relations
| might have contributed to to the decision.
|
| Also, at that time it was obvious that power electronics was
| going to be in high demand, especially of SiC type.
| float4 wrote:
| It's not about the pandemic or luck. It has to do with
| strategy, more independence etc.
| lstoll wrote:
| you don't have to predict that exact scenario to know that
| domestic semiconductor manufacturing is a good idea.
| igalic wrote:
| It has nothing to do with the pandemic, but the strategy and
| investment in reducing reliance on external (to the EU, and
| Germany in particular) suppliers is not luck.
| ineedasername wrote:
| Absolutely. Even with the US, as much as Europe & the US
| are more aligned than not on geopolitical issues, the last
| 4-5 years have shown that is not guaranteed to continue
| indefinitely.
|
| And in terms of the fragility of the world's industrial and
| economic engines, perhaps this is a realization that
| globalization has gone too far and the pendulum needs to
| swing more towards slightly higher self-sufficiency. Not
| even for some philosophy of anti-globalism, but merely
| because things are too brittle as they are now.
| ineedasername wrote:
| Not really luck, most of the western world realizes that
| having most of the world's chip capacity reside within the
| zone of control of a repressive regime with incompatible
| political and humanitarian values is not a good long term
| scenario. They have planned accordingly.
| emodendroket wrote:
| Hm, have they though. It seems like they're awfully reliant
| on TSMC still. And at least some of our planners probably
| like the tripwire aspect of it because it bolsters Taiwan's
| geopolitical importance.
| hulitu wrote:
| > Hm, have they though. It seems like they're awfully
| reliant on TSMC still.
|
| Well just for your information, they are not. The so
| called chip shortage is because a Renesas factory which
| produces microcontrollers burned down. To put this into
| perspective is like Intel using one of his fabs: you have
| the motherboard but no processor. Usually changing a
| component is no big deal but in this case is like a
| complete redesign.
|
| So i do not see any link here between Bosch and TSMC.(
| except that they both make "chips").
| makapuf wrote:
| Do you mean specifically about them or for all
| microcontroller? STmicro are awfully hard to come by
| currently.
| gnu8 wrote:
| 1) China rattles the sabre until everyone is
| uncomfortable with the world depending on TSMC,
| increasing economic uncertainty
|
| 2) Other countries build chip foundries to capitalize on
| the uncertainty
|
| 3) The risk of China provoking world war by reclaiming
| control over Taiwan reduces to an acceptable level, and
| they take over
|
| 4) No one cares because the supply of iPhones and Alexas
| is not disrupted
| ineedasername wrote:
| I don't doubt they will see that as a sort of consolation
| prize, but world discomfort isn't just with chip fabs. I
| don't think China would deliberately allow this course of
| action _only_ for Taiwan. That 's not much to get in
| exchange for being the power of being world's industrial
| bottle neck.
|
| My guess is that they see this sort of diversification
| from reliance on China as inevitable. They resist it of
| course (see 5G equipment in Europe) but their investments
| throughout the rest of the world paint a picture of
| supporting developing nations economically to the point
| that as they grow & prosper, they grow into client states
| of China.
| tibbydudeza wrote:
| 4D Chess moves.
| ineedasername wrote:
| Yes, they have: TSMC is expanding fabs to outside of
| China's geographic sphere of influence. Even just having
| one coming into the US should be enough for European
| China hawks to feel they have a little breathing room,
| but from that perspective it also won't be enough. As a
| result, Europe is in fact working right now with TSMC &
| Samsung to discuss options for advanced fabs.
|
| This actually presents a bit of peril though. China is
| not going to be thrilled that its industrial influence is
| on the decline, and the question is "How will they
| respond?"
|
| We already know part of the response: We can see it play
| out in the contentious situation regarding adoption of 5G
| equipment in Europe. There is also the fact that China is
| investing enormous sums of money in foreign ventures and
| areas of the developing world, e.g., parts of Africa.
| These areas may effectively become client states to
| China.
|
| It is, in some ways, a very interesting response to the
| failed methods employed by the Soviet Union. There,
| client states were obtained & held largely through
| military means. That was done either with the threat of
| force to client states to keep in line, or military
| support for regimes or regime change, for example North
| Vietnam.
|
| Especially having some experience with those endeavors,
| China has moved on to non-military methods-- economic
| development. That is probably preferable to the threat
| massive global conflict, or even just lots of smaller
| ones, but if you worry about China expanding their values
| throughout the world, in being more effective it is also
| more worrying.
|
| Probably about the best thing we can do is the path we
| have started on: diversification from reliance on China,
| and our own support in equal or greater measures of the
| developing world.
|
| I should be clear though: when I talk of expanding
| China's values as a negative, I always mean that in the
| political sense of the repressive Chinese government, not
| the people themselves.
| bakuninsbart wrote:
| As a German, I think a European policy analogue to what
| we did under Brandt and following would be optimal.
| Reliance usually isn't one-sided, China needs us as much
| as we need them. On strategic issues, we should certainly
| strive for self-sufficiency, but it simply isn't smart
| for us to "join a camp".
|
| In contrast to smaller nations, the EU as a whole is too
| large to ignore even if we aren't following the line of
| the cold war superpowers. We can do our own thing and
| cooperate where it suits us.
|
| On another note, your example of Vietnam is pretty
| ridiculous, as the situation was the other way around -
| the US invaded and committed genocide in what was
| originally s one-sided civil war, in the name of "holding
| the red wave".
|
| Vietnam wasn't a shining example of human rights, but us
| policy in this case was abysmal and led to the death of
| millions of people. And the fact that the US speaks
| volumes about the intention of the population.
| sct202 wrote:
| Times can change quickly and unpredictably. It was not too
| long ago that Dresden, where this plant is located, was
| under the oppressive East German regime.
| flohofwoe wrote:
| Important to note though that Dresden was already the
| semiconductor "hotspot" of East Germany (along with Carl
| Zeiss in Jena which produced the manufacturing
| equipment).
|
| AMD also had a fab until around 2008 in Dresden.
| LargoLasskhyfv wrote:
| The fab is still there. Just not AMDs anymore, but Global
| Foundries instead.
| developer93 wrote:
| Dunno I wouldn't call 32 years all that recent either
| goodcanadian wrote:
| As my grandmother once said (sometime around her 85th
| birthday), "You know, in school, in history class, 100
| years seems like a long time. It's not really."
| bobthechef wrote:
| As the adage goes, the Church thinks in centuries. Who
| remembers the Arian crisis today? Things seem bad now?
| Wait a century or two.
| lb1lf wrote:
| Reporter: "What do you think the long-term consequences
| of the French Revolution will be?"
|
| Zhou Enlai: "I believe it is too early to tell."
|
| (This quote, while authentic, is too good to be true -
| the quote harks from 1972, and in context it is evident
| they are discussing the 1968 student unrest, not the 1789
| revolution. Still...)
| bobthechef wrote:
| Indeed, takes a while for these things to unfold. For
| example, what we're seeing today is the result of the
| unfolding of the liberal program initiated centuries
| earlier. However, not only is taking time to unfold
| different from predictability, but specific predictions
| are not the same as general predictions.
|
| It isn't always impossible to make good general
| predictions. For example, some papal encyclicals have
| predicted with spot on accuracy the general character of
| how things will develop long before they did if certain
| things aren't sorted out. These sorts of predictions, in
| part, benefit from concerning the unfolding of
| philosophical (and theological) beliefs, beliefs which
| contains within themselves their own logical entailments.
| So these encyclicals weren't predicting particularities
| like "what will be the stock price of Amazon in 2030" or
| "who will win the presidency in 2030 and will this
| president like ham", but rather the general prevailing
| conditions, attitudes, etc. characterizing future
| generations and the resulting social order, for example.
| tomytosian wrote:
| I am not sure why EU? it will benefit germany only.
| JKCalhoun wrote:
| Germany is playing the _long_ game.
|
| Congrats.
| sonium wrote:
| I always feel a bit puzzled when one thing is generalized to
| a the behavior of a Country .
|
| It probably come down to the decision of one guy at Bosch who
| ultimately made the decision to go ahead with this, and this
| sounds like it was the democratic decision of an entire
| population of a country - who mostly don't care what Bosch is
| up to.
| hutzlibu wrote:
| Oh yes, we like to do that.
|
| Which is why we also need 14 years to build a new, medium
| sized airport in the capital.
| conjectures wrote:
| 14 years? Rapid. Brits have spent 14 years on planning
| permission for Heathrow expansion :D
| NeuroneNetwork wrote:
| What about cost ? :D
| pjmlp wrote:
| Come around NRW, there are a couple of highways that are
| about the same age and still aren't finished. :)
| bipson wrote:
| Come around to Vorarlberg, Austria - where we talk about
| building a Highway in the 70ies or 80ies and never even
| start building it (all with official planning and studies
| and resident participation and environmental evaluations
| and public voting and discussions on the suggested
| variants). It has become a well known joke in the area.
|
| AFAIK we still don't know where it will be built, but
| there has been some progress... EDIT: They agreed upon
| where! But they don't know when and holding another forum
| due to public outcry over the chosen path... sigh.
|
| Meanwhile, Switzerland built the connection ~40 years ago
| [1]
|
| [1] https://goo.gl/maps/xNEp622mFP73Bewy5
| dao- wrote:
| The potential upside of delaying highway construction by
| a few decades is that you could, in theory, reconsider
| whether it's still a good idea. Of course that's usually
| not what's going to happen, and most likely the project
| will be pushed through anyway when there's hardly any
| public support left for it, as with Berlin's infamous
| A100 extension cutting through the city.
| bipson wrote:
| Oh, I"m all for not building highways at all and pushing
| the alternatives (e.g. public transport, cargo on rails).
|
| But this is a special situation, a really small gap
| between the Swiss highway and the Austrian/German
| highway, so transit had to go through the villages and
| clogging up everything at the bottlenecks along the
| border (or in Hochst, Hard, Bregenz, Lustenau, Hohenems,
| Feldkirch etc.)
| wongarsu wrote:
| It looks like they have to bridge 5km/3mi? Sure, there's
| one bridge involved, but that's an awfully short distance
| to plan for 40 years.
| bipson wrote:
| At the narrowest point it would be ~2km, but this variant
| has not been considered for years...
|
| The variant that (at the time) is supposed to be built
| would be 8.6km.
| pjmlp wrote:
| I guess burocracy is the same everywhere.
| eru wrote:
| Singapore is pretty efficient.
| rvnx wrote:
| Estonia as well, everything online, very fast turnaround,
| all documents available electronically for everyone to
| see
| bobthechef wrote:
| Oh yes, I recall the absolute silliness like glaring safety
| issues, doors that wouldn't fit, bad ventilation,
| construction.
|
| But hey, if this pans out, Berlin can still be an okay
| local airport: https://www.businessinsider.com/first-look-
| new-transport-hub...
| oblio wrote:
| It's fun to point at Berlin Brandenburg and laugh, but it's
| not a medium sized airport.
|
| 2 runways, 3 terminals, room for expansion for 2 more
| terminals. Capacity for 27 million passengers per year,
| going up to 50 million once expanded.
|
| Compared to the absolute largest airports in the world
| (around 100 million passengers per year), yes, it's
| "medium". But it would be in the top 10 airports in Europe
| and still something like top 50 in the world, over time.
| hef19898 wrote:
| Well, technically we just talking the new terminal. The
| runways were always there ad part of Berlin Schonefeld.
| carlmr wrote:
| Now we're working on restricting short distance air
| travel within Europe, meaning large airports like this
| one may become too costly to keep running, if it can't be
| utilized enough.
| oblio wrote:
| Restrict how? You'll never restrict it to Eastern Europe,
| for example. Eastern Europe has almost no high speed
| rail, so if you cut off "short" flights, travel that
| would take 4 hours by plane (1 hour to the starting
| airport, 1 hour in the airport, 1 hour flight, 1 hour
| from the destination airport) would become 8-12-16+ hours
| by train for many places.
| carlmr wrote:
| https://www.independent.co.uk/travel/flight-rail-four-
| hours-...
|
| Right now it's still only France, but German politicians
| are talking about adopting a similar strategy.
|
| The French model actually aims to ban flights that have a
| sub 4h train connection. Meaning the Eastern European
| nations without high speed rail would have fewer flights
| affected if this becomes EU policy.
|
| It would cut a lot of flights to neighboring countries,
| and domestically in Germany.
| raverbashing wrote:
| That's the minority of flights, even today
|
| Quite simply, if you're under 4h train connection you're
| far enough to justify a flight.
|
| BER is pretty safe on flight numbers.
| rjzzleep wrote:
| It's actually amusing because the airport lobbyists were
| responsible for cuts in train infrastructure funding in
| Germany. Reminds me a bit of how Germany killed it's
| fiber investment to accomodate for private cable TV back
| in the day.
| andrewxdiamond wrote:
| Interesting that this model incentivizes railroads to
| build more.
|
| A railroad investor could look at existing flights and
| accurately project how many passengers they can expect,
| since flights would be blocked the second they open their
| carriage doors.
| borjah wrote:
| Spain has also a similar policy in the works. For travels
| that are covered by train and are 2.5h or less, no plane
| travel is allowed.
| 74d-fe6-2c6 wrote:
| I'd say this development would rather cause fewer small
| airports in Germany and hence benefit hubs like BER that
| are being reached by train. overall though it'll cause
| fewer air travellers as domestic air transport is
| breaking away. then again more international air travel
| will move from smaller German airports to BER.
| carlmr wrote:
| True, that's a good point.
| 74d-fe6-2c6 wrote:
| the way you put it makes it sound that medium is quite
| apt - possibly even an exaggeration.
|
| According to [1] and [2] it wouldn' even make the top 50.
|
| As a German I feel insulted by the whole affair. It's
| ridiculous how incompetent and corrupt this project was
| managed.
|
| 1: https://gettocenter.com/airports/top-100-airports-in-
| world 2:
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Berlin_Brandenburg_Airport
| bobthechef wrote:
| As I posted in another reply, it can still function as a
| local airport if this project works out:
| https://www.businessinsider.com/first-look-new-transport-
| hub...
| xcambar wrote:
| Which also opened right on time before the pandemics, so
| that it feels huge since there was almost zero circulation.
| myspy wrote:
| Oh, I didn't know that it has finally opened.
|
| Good foresight by Bosch.
| rob74 wrote:
| if you want to create the impression that it was
| intentional, you can call it a "soft launch"...
| fnord123 wrote:
| Do you mean circulation as in air-flow? Or circulation as
| in traffic?
|
| I don't know about German but French speakers will often
| use circulation for traffic because it's a false friend.
| morelisp wrote:
| I suspect in this case it's a false friend - ironically
| one of the major problems blocking the opening of the
| airport was actually zero (air) circulation.
|
| _Several engineering and electronics companies, led by
| the German giants Siemens and Bosch, struggled to retain
| control over the complex fire protection system that
| included 3,000 fire doors, 65,000 sprinklers, thousands
| of smoke detectors, a labyrinth of smoke evacuation
| ducts, and the equivalent of 55 miles of cables.
|
| "Our part, the detection of hot air or smoke ... is
| functioning," says Thilo Resenhoeft, a Bosch spokesman.
| "The responsibility for the dysfunction lies with
| somebody else." Siemens spokesman Oliver Santen confirms
| that the company was originally responsible for building
| the "automated fire protection facility" and "the control
| unit for fresh-air circulation." Testing in 2013 "showed
| the need for reworking part of the system," he says.
| Santen declines to attribute responsibility other than to
| say that Siemens is "responsible for the reconstruction
| of the fresh-air circulation system."_
|
| https://www.bloomberg.com/news/features/2015-07-23/how-
| berli...
|
| (The issue was not fixed until 2019. Quite disappointed,
| we didn't even get a Murder Horse out of it.)
| midasuni wrote:
| "Right on time"
|
| It was originally scheduled to open in 2007
| pistoriusp wrote:
| Totally. "German efficiency" is great marketing, but it's
| completely false.
|
| *edit: "completely false" isn't helpful here.
|
| The stereotype of German efficiency is based on centuries
| old reputation, but not really representative of present
| day Germans.
|
| https://www.dw.com/en/german-efficiency-the-roots-of-a-
| stere...
| sambe wrote:
| I'm not sure about "completely false". The article is
| mostly about the history of the stereotype, and ends with
| a couple of examples of things that were not as efficient
| as they could have been. I don't think anybody is
| claiming perfect efficiency.
| pistoriusp wrote:
| Agree, "completely false" is a stretch on my part, but
| stereotypes are broad and mostly unhelpful, and this was
| a response to that.
|
| Maybe a better way to express it is:
|
| The stereotype of German efficiency is based on centuries
| old reputation, but not really representative of present
| day Germans.
| JauntyHatAngle wrote:
| I don't see any evidence you've provided to show present
| day Germans are not efficient as a tendency.
|
| Anecdotally, from working and living in Germany, I've
| very much noticed that Germans are better with time
| management, and work shorter hours and get more done
| compared with my home country (Australia).
|
| I'd be surprised to see contrary evidence, though it's
| certainly a possibility. But the article you linked does
| not appear to demonstrate much of substance in terms of
| present day productivity.
|
| Stereotypes can be damaging, sure, but when discussing
| certain aspects of a culture they can be true and based
| on cultural norms. I don't think we should broadly
| dismiss them when used in the right context, and not in a
| discriminatory fashion.
| Bayart wrote:
| From working with Germans, I have not noticed any real
| difference in work patterns or efficiency compared to my
| home country (France). I doubt there's much variance
| accross Europe as a whole. It seems their reputation _in
| that respect_ is empty. Though I 've notice cultural
| traits that do have some reality behind it (being
| sticklers for rules).
| verst wrote:
| As a German living outside of Germany for 15 years I have
| an interesting perspective on this:
|
| The rule-following in a work setting is all about risk
| mitigation and rules tend to help with that. Similarly
| for following established processes. I know this is
| pretty annoying but at least I'd argue the status of work
| is transparent and the outcome reliable (even if it may
| take a long time because too many hypotheticals were
| considered). The unstructured working style of the US can
| certainly drive a German a bit crazy at times :)
|
| In a social setting rules are also enforced to ensure
| that you don't negatively impact the personal enjoyment
| of others. For example, no mowing your lawn on Sundays so
| everyone can enjoy a quiet peaceful day. No talking
| loudly at your table in a restaurant so you don't bother
| the other diners etc
|
| Compared to the US I find Germans and French to be fairly
| similar with the difference being that French are more
| relaxed in attitude but definitely complain even more
| than Germans haha
| anthk wrote:
| Spaniard here. Stereotypes are bullshit.
|
| - We are not lazy.
|
| - Not everyone in the country does siesta. We just have
| _lunch_.
|
| - There is no Sun everywhere. The North is rainier than
| the UK. And the sky is as much as gray, if not more.
|
| - There is no Mediterranean climate everywhere.
|
| - Catholicism plummeted since Franco's death.
| JauntyHatAngle wrote:
| I think you may have misunderstood my post somewhat.
|
| But to respond directly to you, a stereotype typecasting
| an entire country to lazy is damaging and not
| particularly useful unless you want to insult someone.
|
| However handwaving away trends in cultures as a
| stereotype can also result in missing important facets,
| e.g. Burn out in Japanese work culture.
|
| Are Germans more "efficient"? Idk, let's look at some
| data and try to nut out whether it checks out.
|
| If it is, would be nice to know what aspects make it so.
| Though it's usually not simple.
| anthk wrote:
| >Are Germans more "efficient"? Idk, let's look at some
| data and try to nut out whether it checks out.
|
| It's more complex than that. In Spain the "presentismo"
| (being in-place ,in your office, _phisically_ in your
| seat) it 's taken from the middle manager/boss as a
| religion. Thus, productiviy is halved even if we work
| even more than you than average.
|
| And, yes, OFC, this was a big issue because of the Covid
| and remote work over the internet.
| losvedir wrote:
| > Not everyone in the country does siesta. We just have
| lunch.
|
| Obviously nothing is universal. But to an American
| visiting Spain the hours of operation there are striking!
| I only visited Madrid and Sevilla, but I found that
| restaurants and many stores were open much later than I
| was accustomed to (my hometown mostly shuts down around
| 8pm or 9pm, for example), and the fact that anything was
| closed around lunch was very odd! It definitely gave a
| fun "flavor" to my trip that was quite different from,
| say, Singapore.
| anthk wrote:
| That's because of Franco's timezone shift: we were
| shifted to GMT+1 because the fascist dictator loved
| Germany. Odd because the Greenwich meridian crosses half
| of Spain in Aragon.
| AshamedCaptain wrote:
| Not really. The difference between eastern Spain and
| southern France is already striking and they are on the
| same meridian and same timezone. Its not hard for me to
| see a shop that closes at 9pm in Spain, then move 50km
| north and find exactly the same brand shop closing at 6pm
| in France (E.g. fnac), practically with midday sun on
| summer.
|
| Lately France is getting a bit more of the delay too,
| with shops opening at 10 and closing at 19.
| kaybe wrote:
| I think it's informative to look at the location of a
| place within a timezone. Between the eastern and the
| western edge of a timezone you can have more than an hour
| of shift in daylight (in the broader zones), of course
| people's rhythms will be shifted.
| pistoriusp wrote:
| Right, this sort of thing is difficult because it's not
| evidence based. It's entirely subjective and anecdotal as
| compared to your past experiences in Australia, or mine
| in my own home country.
|
| You come from a country where trains are ALWAYS VERY
| LATE, Germany is efficient because the trains are just a
| little late.
|
| OR
|
| You come from a country where the trains are ALWAYS ON
| TIME, Germany is inefficient because the trains are just
| a little late.
|
| What I do think is interesting is that people think
| German's are efficient. Where does that come from? That's
| what the article is about.
| JauntyHatAngle wrote:
| To be clear, I've looked at these assumptions before as a
| comparison, and from the sources I read at the time,
| Germany did have less hours compared to Australia, by a
| lot.
|
| Social studies have too many variables to strongly
| conclude exactly why, and I'm not coming out with great
| sources here (om phone), but it does appear that Germany
| works far less than Australia, US, Mexico etc.
|
| https://www.instarem.com/blog/are-you-working-more-than-
| you-...
|
| Some of it is likely wealth. But some of it is definitely
| cultural attitudes to work.
| nobodyandproud wrote:
| Modern Spain has a problem of workers overworking, if I
| recall.
| morelisp wrote:
| My feeling as a foreigner in Germany is that in some ways
| it's its own curse. Germany does still have the economic
| and political structures to rise to meet the stereotype.
| But at the same time the myth means people in charge
| often assume said "efficiency" will just magically happen
| without anyone being responsible or putting in effort.
| [deleted]
| jansan wrote:
| Bosch is a privately owned company, which means they can act
| independently of the stock market. This always helps with
| making long term decisions.
| mojuba wrote:
| Bosch is NOT strictly a privately owned company. It's a so
| called steward company majority owned by a non-profit trust
| so you could say they are nobody's. Profits never leave the
| company and that's why they can plan long-term and are
| generally pretty stable and resilient.
| Loic wrote:
| Better than privately owned, they are owned by a foundation
| and are known to not only think long term, but also short
| term for their workers.
|
| In France, some years ago, they closed a plant producing
| automotive parts, but they kept all the employees,
| retrained them and started producing solar panel
| components. It was pretty incredible as at the same time,
| French companies were just laying off brutally.
| Cthulhu_ wrote:
| It's emphasizing that employees are their primary
| resource, and retaining that resource is more important
| than anything. Contrast this with the US' approach to
| employees that sees them as expendable and replaceable -
| showing now in the crisis / memes that restaurants can't
| get enough staff because they don't pay enough / people
| aren't desperate enough.
| lb1lf wrote:
| -In all fairness, though, the latter approach isn't
| unique to the US; Norwegian papers have run a lot of
| stories lately about business X or Y being up in arms
| about the labour shortage, amplified by COVID because of
| travel restrictions limiting access to cheap labour from
| abroad.
|
| However the issue isn't really that they cannot find
| labour - it is that they cannot find labour at a cost
| which makes their current business model sustainable.
| (Mostly an issue in labour intensive, seasonal sectors
| relying on unskilled labour - agriculture, aquaculture,
| restaurants...)
|
| Essentially, the gripe is 'If we paid our employees a
| decent wage, we'd be out of business.'
|
| Sigh.
| simonh wrote:
| To those migrant workers, what they're getting might well
| be a decent wage. Meanwhile the jobs of "real" Norwegians
| such as the farmers you mention and their supply chain
| depend on that business model too.
|
| It's funny how depriving foreigners of their livelihood
| is so often pitched as being for their own good.
| lb1lf wrote:
| -Fair point (matter of fact, I considered including a
| paragraph about that) - but the situation now is that for
| reasons outside their control, the migrant labour is not
| available, and the system as is cannot handle either
| paying the going rate for 'normal' work to fresh hires in
| that sector OR find enough 'real' (for lack of a better
| term) Norwegians willing -or even able to- to accept work
| at the wage offered.
|
| For instance, with wages being as they are, many
| unemployed people would get less payout working full time
| in the agricultural sector than they would just sitting
| at home receiving unemployment benefits (at slightly less
| than 2/3 of their former wage).
|
| The result being, of course, that whatever labour does
| show up tends to be less than fully motivated, adding to
| the employers' woes and reluctance to hire them in the
| first place.
|
| I don't mind migrant labour at all; what I do mind is the
| idea that when the labour pool shrinks drastically,
| employers still try to avoid the obvious solution to
| attract labour - by increasing wages, if only
| temporarily.
|
| These are extraordinary times (one can but hope), and
| extraordinary short-term measures to counter that doesn't
| seem unreasonable.
| ClumsyPilot wrote:
| Seasonal migrant workers in UK agricultural sector often
| make next to nothing and are seriously misled and
| exploited, to the point where I think it should be
| considered fraud.
|
| We recruit folks from Romania promising them a decent
| wage, say $10 and hour, and they are typically naive
| folks straight out of school. Part of the contract is
| that they are provided with lodging, food, etc. Then they
| realise that after getting charged $50 for living in a
| tent and other "charges" they actually make like $10 a
| day.
|
| The sceme basically provided a steady supply of serfs to
| pick fruit, and noone in britain would sign up for this.
|
| Other cases are less egrigeous, but even in skilled work,
| the employee may realise the opportunity is not great,
| but depends on the job for visa and so decide to put up
| with it untill they can get permanent right to stay. Its
| not a terrible deal, but it wouldnt work for 'natives'
| oblio wrote:
| Yeah, I guess they've changed this recently, but a bunch
| of years back they were recruiting even university
| students.
|
| I imagine that backfired since those are, you know,
| educated, motivated and the vast majority speak English,
| so at least a bunch of them figured out how to contact
| authorities.
|
| I wouldn't be surprised if recent batches are from less
| educated segments.
| simonh wrote:
| Oh I understand there are abuses, but what we need to do
| is crack down on those abuses. Address the actual
| problem. Too often they're used as an excuse to justify
| much broader action.
|
| I have skin in this game because I'm married to a former
| migrant worker who started off over here working in
| restaurants and coffee shops, and have a niece who's
| currently here in the UK as a student. She completes her
| studies this summer and is taking up her 2 year work visa
| for graduates.
| throwaway210222 wrote:
| Most migrant workers, especially those from outside the
| EU, consider seasonal/migrant work and studying as a
| stepping stone to residence and later citizenship.
|
| They all know that once they are inside the borders, its
| harder for the authorities to deport them.
|
| Its basically the price to pay for a shot at first world
| lifestyle.
|
| The last thing most of them want is a crackdown.
| ClumsyPilot wrote:
| "They all know that once they are inside the borders, its
| harder for the authorities to deport them"
|
| Deportation doesn't come into this, that's only relevant
| once you've broken the law or overstayed your visa.
|
| The game is about meeting criteria for a visa route, and
| doing seasonal work does not help in any way. Having a UK
| degree enables you to get a job here easier, but thats
| about it.
|
| In UK, if you are switching from a short-term to long-
| term visa you have to leave the country and apply for a
| visa again from outside the country.
|
| Even if you are applying from inside the country, the
| home office does not hesitate to reject applications for
| the tiniest reasons. Once that happens, some people might
| go to court if they have the money and ground to dispute
| the decision, if your lot in your home country is really
| bad you might stay illegally, but for the vast majority
| neither option is worth it and they move on.
|
| Whether you are pro or against immigration, it's unclear
| why unscurpulous employer should be the ones to benefit
| from this arrangement
| throwaway210222 wrote:
| >> if [you perceive] your lot in your home country is
| really bad you might stay illegally.
|
| Yes, that is precisely the route.
|
| The billions (like moi) in the third world have realised
| that the _longer_ they violate the immigration laws, the
| better their chances of having some activist argue their
| right to stay.
|
| Their is no other law/regulation that I know of where the
| _longer_ you violate the law, the more rights your have.
|
| Which is exactly why the boat arrivals to Australia dried
| up once the processing was moved outside the jurisdiction
| of Australian law.
|
| They were on to us.
| ClumsyPilot wrote:
| Can we please stop lumping together refugees and
| immigrants? This is borderline vulgar, students in uk
| paid 60K for a degree, noone pays that kind of money to
| become an illegal without rights to work or healthcare.
| Becoming illegal immigrant is certanly not a ticket to
| "first world lifestyle"
| dragonwriter wrote:
| > Their is no other law/regulation that I know of where
| the longer you violate the law, the more rights your
| have.
|
| I suggest you research "adverse possession", and
| "easement by prescription"; if you view nation-states and
| their territory as analogous to persons and their real
| property, they are quite similar concepts to what you
| seem to view as unique.
| simonh wrote:
| It very much depends on what you're cracking down on.
| Extortion, deceptive practices, human trafficking, modern
| slavery sure. Students working in coffee shops? Not so
| much, but these issues are often deliberately conflated.
| Glawen wrote:
| And they were laid off because Bosch closed their solar
| panel business a few years later
| hef19898 wrote:
| Doesn't change the fact they tried. More then most other
| companies usually do.
| namdnay wrote:
| Amazon has taken pretty long term decisions, despite being
| public
|
| I think it's just a question of leadership
| lb1lf wrote:
| -But management takes their cues from stockholders, and
| it would be a very hard sell indeed to convince
| stockholders that a decision resulting in lower profit in
| the short term but improve it long term should be made.
|
| Hence companies which are either not publicly traded
| (like Bosch) or is majority owned by someone or other
| (like Amazon) is much more likely to be able to make long
| term decisions - as they are not always geared towards
| getting the most impressive earnings during the current
| quarter to satisfy stockholders.
| jansan wrote:
| 20 years is not very long term. Kepp in mind that Bosch
| was founded in 1886. If Amazon keeps up like this for the
| next one hundred years, I will fully agree with you.
| _ph_ wrote:
| While Amazon is technically a public company, more than
| 50 % of shares are owned by the founder and consequently
| the control isn't split across a larger group of people.
| eru wrote:
| Where do you got your 'more than 50%' from?
|
| The Internet says Jeff Bezos has a bit more than 10%.
| [deleted]
| User23 wrote:
| Swabians have been playing the long game for centuries.
| eb0la wrote:
| I dont' think it is as "long" game as it seems: Bosch brags
| about they _make_ cars and their customer just _assemble_
| them. If they 're able to send you a complete solution that
| includes sensors, connectivity, etc... they are doing their
| customer's life easier and raising the entry barrier for the
| competition.
| justicezyx wrote:
| The article has no details of the plants technology.
|
| Anyone here has more information about the projected products and
| other technical detail
| jollybean wrote:
| It seems like a smart move: do something safer to start to
| provide domestic supply.
|
| But it also provides a stepping point for something more more
| aggressive if that's the future they want to move in.
|
| The UK, given Brexit, needs to make at least 2 moves like this.
|
| And the US needs to make 5.
| bellyfullofbac wrote:
| The last 3 paragraphs confirms what I think is the most
| interesting point:
|
| > The Bosch plant, which received 200 million euros ($243
| million) in state aid under a European Union investment scheme,
| will start making chips for power tools in July, with output of
| automotive chips to follow from September.
|
| > "The state-of-the-art technology in Bosch's new semiconductor
| factory in Dresden shows what outstanding results can be achieved
| when industry and government join forces," said European
| Commission Vice-President Margrethe Vestager.
|
| > Kroeger said Bosch supported a broader strategic push by
| Brussels to revive Europe's semiconductor industry. A recently
| unveiled plan targets doubling the region's share of global chip
| production to 20% by 2030.
|
| I saw a Guardian headline the other day that said Biden's mission
| at the G7 meeting is to find allies for a new Cold War against
| China[1], but the USA isn't actually a reliable partner for the
| EU, what with Trump 2024 a scenario they can't even rule out yet
| (thanks to the obstructionist party still being very influential
| and working very hard to disenfranchise voters). So it makes
| sense for the EU to ramp up chip production.
|
| Interestingly for Bosch or other tech companies, it's probably a
| no-lose scenario, the EU money will probably keep coming for
| them.
|
| [1] I DDGed "Biden new cold war" but the results are headlines
| that say he's accelerating it...
| fidesomnes wrote:
| > thanks to the obstructionist party still being very
| influential and working very hard to disenfranchise voters.
|
| Fantastic. Thanks for reminding me to vote for them a third
| time in a row.
| dmix wrote:
| Curious you're focusing on US (politics) and not
| China/Taiwan/SEA... is that really relevant considering they
| have enough capital and Germany has plenty of manufacturing?
|
| The only thing relevant for the US re risking starting this
| niche is brain drain and talent. The market is always growing,
| they already have vertical demand (power tools and simple car
| chips), and new more-local competition can never be dismissed.
|
| It always comes down to the people at the end of the day. Your
| 2nd paragraph quote where they are declaring this a successful
| example of public/private just because the factory was built is
| a bit concerning to me. They've mearly just begun.
| antattack wrote:
| This is a second Bosch' plant of this type so they know what
| they will be getting out of it.
|
| Plus chip shortage/supply chain disruption makes it even more
| valuable.
| varispeed wrote:
| > The only thing relevant for the US re risking starting this
| niche is brain drain and talent.
|
| That's unlikely due to extremely high taxes in the EU for
| individuals. People who know their stuff tend to migrate
| where they get more in return for their talents.
| sangnoir wrote:
| What I pay for in medical insurance and routine medical
| expenses pushes me is just about equal to the difference
| between my current US taxes and European tax rates - and
| I'm a fairly healthy person with no chronic conditions.
|
| Frankly, I don't see the point of celebrating the fact that
| my money is going to private companies as premiums/co-
| payments rather than to the central government as taxes,
| while getting worse medical outcomes for it (with a risk of
| medical bankruptcy).
| varispeed wrote:
| When you have more complex health problems, you'll notice
| though that you still have to use private healthcare,
| because state provided is next to useless.
| sangnoir wrote:
| Taking what you said at face value - this doesn't give an
| advantage to either system when it comes to the minority
| of people who have complex health problems. In practice,
| European private healthcare is likely to have more price
| transparency and cheaper costs due to the pricing of
| procedures and medical consumables having been
| negotiated/capped by a government agency or an
| independent body.
| dboreham wrote:
| Hmm. Admittedly it was a long time ago buy I moved from a
| (then) EU country to the US and from my perspective taxes
| are about the same. And in the US we have to pay for a
| bunch of stuff that is government funded in EU.
| jgeada wrote:
| When I moved to the US my nominal salary tripled but my
| quality of life dropped noticeably. The first part I knew
| going in, the 2nd part came as a total surprise.
|
| Taxes actually come out about the same when you add the
| multitude of separate tax systems in the US (federal
| income, social security/medicare, state, local), and then
| in the US additionally have to pay extra for things that
| are paid by taxes in Europe, health care being the biggest
| such expense.
|
| And then there is the expectation of working 24/7, nobody
| has much vacation and nobody takes what they get, etc etc
| etc. Yeah, quality of life for Americans is nowhere
| comparable to Europeans, unless you're in the "I no longer
| work for money, my money works for money" set.
| lstoll wrote:
| I migrated from the EU to the US, but then realised that
| once everything was factored in (medical, car, housing,
| cost of living) the taxes were actually worth it, so I
| moved back to the EU.
| passerby1 wrote:
| Did you compare EU to Singapore or Thailand in terms of
| tax and the life cost?
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