[HN Gopher] Is Poe the most influential American writer? A new b...
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Is Poe the most influential American writer? A new book offers
evidence
Author : lermontov
Score : 50 points
Date : 2021-06-05 02:01 UTC (21 hours ago)
(HTM) web link (www.washingtonpost.com)
(TXT) w3m dump (www.washingtonpost.com)
| timoth3y wrote:
| There is no question that Poe is _one_ of the most influential
| writers in American history. It 's an impossible question to
| answer, and the fun of these discussions is in establishing the
| criteria for the comparison.
|
| This article doesn't do that. It's just a list of Poe's
| impressive accomplishments.
|
| However, if we want to talk about the _most_ influential, we
| should also talk about the breath of their impact. I would give
| the nod to Twain but maybe Steinbeck or Thoreau would be in the
| running.
|
| Thoughts? Criteria?
| spodek wrote:
| I'm going with _Declaration of Independence_ author Thomas
| Jefferson. If British when he started, American when he finished.
| dataviz1000 wrote:
| In a sense we are comparing apples and oranges. How do we
| compare _On Civil Disobedience_? The book toppled the British
| without firing a single bullet. At this point we would have to
| consider different timelines altogether.
| whoknew1122 wrote:
| At that time, most Americans still saw themselves as British
| subjects. People weren't American once the Declaration was
| penned -- there was still a war to win.
|
| If the 'most influential American writer' means 'the one most
| important to the US becoming its own country', then the answer
| is Thomas Paine. His American Crisis papers buttressed the
| flagging revolutionary movement and made the common folk
| actually care. Before Paine's propaganda, the majority of
| colonists saw themselves as British subjects and the fight for
| independence was only really supported by the landed gentry.
|
| The American Crisis papers made the common folk care, and
| without them there likely isn't enough popular support to win
| the war.
|
| Paine > Jefferson as pertains to the American cause (and Paine
| > Jefferson as person).
| galaxyLogic wrote:
| Tom Paine no doubt is the most influential because even Bob
| Dylan sings about him: ... Just then Tom
| Paine, himself Came running from across the field
| Shouting at this lovely girl And commanding her to
| yield And as she was letting go her grip
| Up Tom Paine did run "I'm sorry, sir", he said to me
| "I'm sorry for what she's done"
| handrous wrote:
| Ouch. Dylan: America's tough-but-fair national
| psychoanalyst.
| [deleted]
| bryanrasmussen wrote:
| well there's a saying that when the Velvet Underground was around
| only a thousand people ever saw them (maybe it was a hundred,
| don't remember very well) but every one of those people went out
| to start a band.
|
| So is Poe influential in the way of VU or influential in the way
| of Bob Dylan.
|
| The article doesn't actually say, and doesn't make much of an
| argument for him being the most influential (what argument there
| is, is more hinted at then effectively made) but given the many
| things he did I suppose the influence is widespread like Dylan
| and not direct like VU. If so - I believe widespread influence
| generally requires quality as well - and the article won't argue
| that as to him being the greatest.
| failwhaleshark wrote:
| One could argue Iron Butterfly helped launch metal by bridging
| from psychedelic rock to their then new heavyness. I think most
| people might recognize In-A-Gadda-Da-Vida and assume they're a
| hippie, one-hit wonder.
|
| The Guess Who and Frank Zappa were damn important too.
|
| Btw, one of the most important locations for counterculture
| rock influence was the Hollywood Landmark Motor Hotel (today:
| The Highland Gardens Hotel). Jim Morrison, Jimi Hendrix, Pink
| Floyd, Janis Joplin (who lived and died there), and Alice
| Cooper were all there... oh and Shep Gordon.
| grasshopperpurp wrote:
| I believe that's a Brian Eno quote (about VU).
| creamytaco wrote:
| Poe was a big influence on Lovecraft, who died in poverty and
| obscurity but exploded in popular consciousness with the passage
| of time. In fact one can say that he has eclipsed Poe as his
| popularity continues to rise.
| mathattack wrote:
| https://www.google.com/amp/s/quoteinvestigator.com/2016/03/0...
|
| "Rock mythology has it that even though they were around only
| for a few years, everyone who went to a Velvet Underground
| concert went out and started a band."
|
| Several other versions of the quote exist there too. They all
| support the idea of the outsized influence of a small hyper
| loyal following. This is consistent with the 1000 (or 100) fans
| idea.
|
| https://a16z.com/2020/02/06/100-true-fans/
| Mediterraneo10 wrote:
| Poe entered the general literary canon in Eastern Europe (where
| he is read, of course, in translation). Lovecraft, meanwhile,
| is not on the radar except for some genre readers.
| failwhaleshark wrote:
| How does one begin to measure an amorphous social, cultural, and
| memetic inflection due to a particular author without a control
| and without concrete evidence? To attempt to characterize
| trendsetters seems purely provincial and an anecdotal self-
| assessment based on biases and upbringing.
|
| Furthermore, why can't a number of books and writers be similarly
| yet differently influential without a requirement of ranking
| them? Can't there be strawberries, blueberries, and raspberries?
| totaldex wrote:
| There is value in 'ranking' things like books and authors: It
| may serve to emphasize a point someone is making about their
| relative importance or impact.
|
| It's helpful to have some sort of comparison, even if they're
| imperfect or highly subjective (as historical observations
| often are). With a more cynical take, we can perhaps call it
| analytical clickbait.
| 0-_-0 wrote:
| Slightly off topic: Standard Ebooks published many of Poe's
| works:
|
| https://standardebooks.org/ebooks/edgar-allan-poe
| robin_reala wrote:
| I've got a compilation of his poetry on my (long) production
| to-do list.
| wrycoder wrote:
| I enjoyed Poe as a teenager, but I won't put him even in the top
| ten now. Maybe not in the top twenty.
| potiuper wrote:
| Seems like it should be Linus Torvalds? Influential is not
| necessarily correct..
| bombcar wrote:
| I assume they're limiting it to a particular subset of
| authorship - namely fiction.
|
| Also calling Linus an American is a bit of history rewriting.
| [deleted]
| afraidgettingdv wrote:
| How come? I'm an "[insert-country-here]-born American,"
| though, I rarely say that out loud or otherwise.
|
| Ayn Rand was a Russian-born American. Mila Kunis is a
| Ukranian-born American. Natalie Portman is an Israeli-born
| American. Elon Musk is a South African-born American, and so
| are his siblings. Sofia Vergara is a Colombian-born American,
| so is Wilmer Valderrama "Fez" from That '70s show. Justin
| Bieber is a Canadian-born American. The Sprouse twins are
| Italian-born Americans. Arnold Schwarzenegger is an Austrian-
| born American.
|
| The same way that say, Boris Johnson (Prime Minister of the
| United Kingdom) is an American-born British, except that
| outside the US people don't pay as much attention to this
| silly thing.
|
| What's your point?
| bloak wrote:
| It's not particularly interesting where people were born,
| or where they died, but it is interesting where they were
| educated. To me, at least.
| Tycho wrote:
| Because people are interested in what exceptional people a
| country _produced_ , not which ones it merely imported from
| elsewhere.
| afraidgettingdv wrote:
| As usual, the truth lies in nuance. What counts as
| _produed_ by a country? Being born in it? Getting primary
| education in said country? Getting secondary education in
| said country? College?
|
| Is Ayn Rand an exceptional person produced by the Soviet
| Union just because she was born there or produced by
| America because she was able to write what she wanted
| once she moved here (she wouldn't have made it in the
| USSR, that's for sure)?
|
| Is Peter Thiel an exceptional person produced by Germany
| just because he was born there or produced by America
| because he got all his education here?
|
| Perhaps this is nonsensical to me because I have a
| peculiar background. My father is Spanish while his dad
| was Russian and his mother was Italian. My mom is
| Colombian while his father was a first generation
| Colombian whose family had migrated to Colombia from
| Syria and her mother was a tzabar (born on a kibbutz) who
| migrated to Argentina (and eventually became a citizen).
|
| Where was me and my family exceptionalism _produced_?
| It's hard to say. the truth lies in nuance.
| Tycho wrote:
| I think if you spend most of your childhood and
| adolescence in a country, and especially if your parents
| are from that country, then that would qualify. So Boris
| Johnson definitely British.
|
| Of course, by those terms some people simply will not be
| the product of _any_ nation, in this sense in which we
| commonly use the word. I take it you're Jewish? Sometimes
| a nation can be a people, rather then a place.
| naniwaduni wrote:
| A nation is always a people. Sometimes--not always--they
| have a place.
| bryanrasmussen wrote:
| I believe there are more international or cosmopolitan
| children in the decades from 1960 to now than in previous
| generations, but of course difficult to find data on that
| because Google is no longer any good.
|
| on edit: realizing that I might have left myself open for
| someone to complain about my laziness and how I thought
| people ever managed to do any research before google, I
| will just note that difficulty is relative and for me it
| would be difficult because it is not the kind of thing my
| day to day life is geared towards - ergo, it is not my
| job to find this kind of data and thus I am unable to
| make the requisite investment of time to prove my
| conjecture without the use of a quality search engine
| such as was available to the general public about a
| decade ago.
|
| It's sad I had to explain myself at this length, but I
| have had experiences that suggests it is prudent to do
| so.
| bombcar wrote:
| More importantly he did his famous thing BEFORE he came
| to America.
|
| Whereas I feel it's fair to call Musk and American as he
| did much of his famous things AFTER emigrating.
| pmoriarty wrote:
| _" Before his death in 1849 at age 40, Poe largely created the
| modern short story, while also inventing or perfecting half the
| genres represented on the bestseller list, including the mystery
| ("The Murders in the Rue Morgue," "The Gold-Bug"), science
| fiction ("The Facts in the Case of M. Valdemar," "The
| Conversation of Eiros and Charmion"), psychological suspense
| ("The Tell-Tale Heart," "The Cask of Amontillado") and, of
| course, gothic horror ("The Fall of the House of Usher," "The
| Masque of the Red Death," the incomparable "Ligeia")."_
|
| I love Poe, but whether he can be credited with inventing these
| genres is highly debatable.
|
| On the origin of the mystery tale, Poe published "The Murders in
| the Rue Morgue" in 1841, and "The Gold-Bug" in 1843.
|
| In 1819 ETA Hoffmann wrote "Mademoiselle de Scuderi".
|
| To my knowledge, it was Hoffmann's work, written decades before
| Poe's, that was the prototypical detective story (featuring a
| female detective even!).
|
| On the origin of the Gothic, Poe published "The Fall of the House
| of Usher" in 1839, "The Masque of the Red Death" in 1842, and
| "Ligeia" in 1838.
|
| By then, the Gothic genre was well under way, with Horace Walpole
| having published the classic _The Castle of Otranto_ in 1764. Ann
| Radclife ( _the mother of the Gothic_ ) had published _The
| Mysteries of Udolpho_ in 1794 and it was already parodied by Jane
| Austen 's _Northanger Abbey_ in 1817, long before Poe even
| started writing any of his Gothic fiction.
|
| Science fiction has a very long history, and depending on how you
| define it could go back at least to the 2nd Century AD, with
| Lucian's _A True Story_ (featuring travel to outer space,
| encounters with aliens, and interplanetary warfare), but if you
| didn 't accept that as "true science fiction" there are plenty of
| other candidates which predate Poe, such as parts of the _Arabian
| Nights_ (well over a thousand years old by the time Poe started
| writing), _Gulliver 's Travels_ (1726), Voltaire's _Micromegas_
| (1752), and of course Mary Shelley 's _Frankenstein_ (1818).
| bombcar wrote:
| Yeah there's a distinction between inventing and popularizing.
| Heck, there's a detective story in the Bible - Susanna and the
| Elders in the Book of Daniel.
|
| But you can certainly become identified with a genre by being
| famous for it - and Poe arguably was that.
| okareaman wrote:
| He invented his own Poe style, which I'm sure was influenced
| by whatever ideas people had about good stories at the time,
| but he brought his own interpretation to it. It sounds like
| people remember Poe's interpretations and those became
| stories that defined those genres, with a nod to whatever
| came before it.
| Eric_WVGG wrote:
| I think it'd be fair to call him the Stephen King of his day.
|
| On the singular scale of "influential," I think that maybe
| popularity matters more than whatever he "invented," but he
| was indeed very, very popular.
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