[HN Gopher] Y Combinator kicks out Paul Biggar over a tweet
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Y Combinator kicks out Paul Biggar over a tweet
Author : bqe
Score : 266 points
Date : 2021-06-04 22:01 UTC (58 minutes ago)
(HTM) web link (twitter.com)
(TXT) w3m dump (twitter.com)
| kumarski wrote:
| Bookface posts are confidential by design.
| H8crilA wrote:
| By "design" of human nature the only really confidential
| communication is 1:1 verbal. And even that can be easily
| recorded. Kinda funny to see people not understand this simple
| fact over and over again.
| version_five wrote:
| The behavior he's calling out is obviously abhorrent. But isn't
| this more due to him airing dirty laundry in public? If this is
| his last recourse after consulting internally to try and deal
| with this, then I get it. But there is definitely a trend (maybe
| not by him) of people running to social media with their
| complaints before discussing them with those involved. If that is
| the case i would understand his being sanctioned.
| harzhar wrote:
| Whatever - every fucking person in SF that wanted a vaccine
| went and got one already. You didn't need to cheat either.
|
| They're already taking down the mass vaccination sites.
|
| This is all more liberal drama.
|
| I wish someone would drop a nuke on SF.
| jollybean wrote:
| From the information available publicly, it's obvious the issue
| was him airing his grievance publicly.
|
| But being banned from YC is a fairly extreme measure -
| especially for an activity that has a hint of moral impetus.
|
| Both 'skipping vaccine lines' and 'immediately naming and
| shaming private conversations to the entire world' are kind of
| selfish and toxic signals.
|
| If I were the King of YC I would have had condescending words
| with both of them and told them to grow up and then that would
| be the end of it.
|
| Note however, we don't really know what happened behind the
| scenes.
| nostromo wrote:
| Kicked out today for a tweet from March? Why such a long delay?
| minimaxir wrote:
| The person who the original tweet was referring to (it's not
| private; they admitted it), just tweeted a GIF about "witnessing
| karma".
|
| https://twitter.com/Prafulfillment/status/140093402468041523...
| tshaddox wrote:
| Nice to see that everyone evolved are definitely fully grown
| adults.
| pton-throw wrote:
| When did public denunciations become popular in the US? I know
| they've been a part of the Chinese internet since the early
| days. It wasn't always so intense in the US.
| chillacy wrote:
| Probably starting with Puritan (proper noun, religious sect)
| witch hunts.
| H8crilA wrote:
| This is getting off-topic, but the US is like the motherland
| of telling other people how they should behave. Look up any
| of the "public freakout" videos, they're 80% each side trying
| to explain why what the other side did was wrong, all the
| while not realizing that pretty much nobody cares about their
| opinion and is just there to watch the drama for a few
| minutes. Every single "Karen" video is full of self-
| righteousness, that's what makes them so hilarious (until you
| get bored, which happens rather quickly).
| pton-throw wrote:
| That's all true.
|
| But US internet culture has changed dramatically in the
| past few years. And it's not just "eternal September".
|
| I miss the early years. There are still vestiges left. Some
| public intellectuals still respond to unsolicited email
| from strangers.
| rootusrootus wrote:
| > Some public intellectuals still respond to unsolicited
| email from strangers.
|
| Fauci is on that list, isn't he? I was kinda surprised to
| learn that from the email dump. I figured his email would
| be thoroughly filtered.
|
| Of course, whether he actually qualifies as an
| intellectual seems up for debate these days.
| ska wrote:
| > I miss the early years.
|
| Whatever else was true of the early years, when internet
| use was niche it wasn't representative of broader US
| culture sort of by definition. Now it is.
| wonnage wrote:
| Jesus how does everything bad about the world end up China
| related these days
| rootusrootus wrote:
| To be fair, the CCP seems to put forth a fair amount of
| effort doing things that are prime targets for widespread
| criticism.
| worik wrote:
| Does speak to a sense of entitlement some people have.
| TigeriusKirk wrote:
| We're about to see the Streisand Effect in action.
| smcl wrote:
| I agree that it'll get more attention than it otherwise would,
| but I think that is a desirable outcome for YC. The more people
| who see the message "if you publicly badmouth us, you will be
| punished" the better for them.
| Hamuko wrote:
| The message that I'm getting is mostly "YC is full of
| assholes like Praful Mathur".
| anm89 wrote:
| Good for YC. I don't understand why someone would assume that
| publicly causing drama for the company that is supporting them
| would be tolerated.
|
| People think that because some opinion of theirs is justified,
| all consequences related to any public behavior based of that
| opinion should be nullified. Well, reality seems to frequently
| think otherwise.
| [deleted]
| rafaelero wrote:
| It's a bit distressing how organizations try so hard to keep a
| good reputation all the time. I mean, is it really that bad to
| publically admit that you are composed of people with
| questionable morals? For example, in the first company I used to
| work, I was always bitching about how things could improve. I got
| fired because I was "bringing the moral down" and was "working
| against the company". I could see why they would think that, but
| in my mind this kind of loyalty that is required is very
| immature: very good things arise from conflict, why would you
| keep that from coming? Or maybe I am being naive and a good
| reputation is much more important than everything else. I don't
| know.
| antipaul wrote:
| Critique is good but depends on whether it is constructive or
| not constructive.
|
| And that's a bit of a subjective call
| ezekg wrote:
| Maybe I have a minority opinion, but critique does not always
| need to be constructive.
| chain-- wrote:
| What would you say the purpose or goal is of unconstructive
| critique?
| hn8788 wrote:
| I obviously don't know your situation, but there's a difference
| between giving useful feedback and just constantly bitching
| about everything. You also have to consider that maybe you
| didn't have the full picture, and there actually was a good
| reason for what was being done, even though that would be a
| management failure to not convey why something needed to be
| done.
| rafaelero wrote:
| I was always ready to be part of the solution, so I don't
| think I was being empty when complaining about things. But I
| have to add that I wasn't maximizing for appearing polite. I
| never cross the line of not being respectful, though.
|
| Indeed, the management could have a different idea of what
| was an ideal direction. I just happened to disagree. It was a
| very small company, so I don't think I had a lot of different
| information. But even if that was the case, this was a good
| opportunity to have a perhaps heated but interesting
| discussion.
| chillacy wrote:
| Not exactly the same as orgs but it reminds me of the very very
| difficult skill of "criticizing the king". It's possible, but
| it requires a lot of finesse and skill, and even then you might
| get beheaded.
|
| And it goes without saying, overtly criticizing the king is
| pretty obviously a bad idea.
| ezekg wrote:
| People don't know how to disagree anymore. It's disheartening,
| because I like a good disagreement and the deep debates that
| can come out of them ... that is, as long as the conversation
| is void of emotional temper-tantrums (and in a lot of cases
| these days, fear of cancel-culture.)
| chillacy wrote:
| What I find interesting is that Dale Carnegie published How
| to Win Friends and Influence People in 1936 covering this
| topic. Maybe that was the "beginning of the trend"... not
| really sure.
| gotoeleven wrote:
| Sorry buddy but if you don't accept my truth and also check
| your privilege and agree that hearing things I don't agree
| with causes me harm, how could we possibly discuss anything?
| void_mint wrote:
| On the internet, anyone can drop in and out of any
| conversation they want. Combine that concept with
| anonymity/the ability to disparage people you will never
| meet, and you've got a recipe for disagreements starting from
| positions of extreme toxicity.
| saltedonion wrote:
| I'm confused. So YC kicked out the guy who complained about it on
| Twitter and not the people who advocated for lying to skip lines?
| Wtf?
| whymauri wrote:
| I'm guessing it goes like this:
|
| 1. Skipping vaccine line and talking about it is not actually
| against BookFace/YC ToS, or it would be a stretch to apply ToS.
|
| 2. Publicly talking about matters inside the private group is
| against ToS since it breaches privacy. In a way that paints the
| group negatively, nonetheless.
|
| Pretty straightforward. It doesn't really matter *to YC*
| whether anyone skipped a line or not, what matters are private
| forum matters getting blasted to hundreds (thousands?) of
| Twitter users.
|
| Edit: before you get angry, I'm presenting this from the most
| plausible perspective of YC, not my own feelings on the matter
| (which are irrelevant).
|
| Edit2: what are people seeing that I'm not seeing here??
| Macha wrote:
| Is it really that out of character for a tech VC company to
| have no objections to "disrupting" government processes?
| cryptoz wrote:
| I'm also confused. But it seems like the tweet in question is a
| false story that could be libel/defamation or something?
|
| He later issues a 'correction' (why not delete the original
| wrong tweet?) that says that the story about "advocating for
| lying to skip lines" is false. [1]
|
| I don't have any part of this and I'm confused and don't know
| what's going on here. But it does not seem like the tweet
| everyone is focusing on was even true. So the story becomes
| possibly, that YC kicked someone out for spreading lies about
| people in their internal community? I don't know.
|
| [1] "I was incorrect in saying the 2nd founder lied, and would
| like to apologize."
| https://twitter.com/paulbiggar/status/1370144350861135881
| ivanbakel wrote:
| >But it does not seem like the tweet everyone is focusing on
| was even true. So the story becomes possibly, that YC kicked
| someone out for spreading lies about people in their internal
| community? I don't know.
|
| It's still partially true - the allegation of lying was
| wrong, but the allegation of instructing others how to lie is
| still being made. This is clarified by the tweet that you
| linked.
| [deleted]
| kubb wrote:
| Why is that confusing? If you condemn the in-group publicly,
| it's a sign of betrayal, and they kick you out. Monkeys strong
| together, that's all there is to it.
| [deleted]
| plusbryan wrote:
| This is really distressing, especially considering the ongoing
| public behavior of the original founder. Kicking out Paul seems
| like the opposite reaction for YC to have. It would be helpful to
| hear a public comment from them about this situation.
| nailer wrote:
| He seems to have not advocated lying though just showing up:
|
| https://www.reddit.com/r/oakland/comments/m4bqx9/comment/gqu...
| ipaddr wrote:
| People have been kicked out of other important things for less. I
| wish they put a warning label on social media... don't post
| unless you want your words used against you in a future you
| haven't envisioned.
|
| It may be too late but I would advise anyone to delete anything
| you wrote under your real name now. In 10 years you are going to
| get buried for what is normal today. They are coming for you.
|
| What he did was wrong but in the 80s the info would have passed
| on to a small group at a pool party.
| arkitaip wrote:
| They are so thin-skinned and cancellation happy when it comes to
| their own reputation.
| SamReidHughes wrote:
| What are the rules for YC's private forum? Is it more restrictive
| than Chatham House rules? Is it permitted to leak internal
| conversations and denounce other YC members on Twitter?
| float4 wrote:
| That tweet is three months old. No way YC bans someone over a
| three month old tweet (unless they only discovered the tweet
| recently, which I doubt).
|
| I'm betting there's more to this story.
| jollybean wrote:
| They should have asked him to take it down, or re-phrase it to be
| more polite about it. Booting someone over that seems kafkaesque,
| like there's a lot to hide.
|
| Especially if he was being factual, there's an element of legit
| whistle-blowing there, it's a bad look, YC.
| etc-hosts wrote:
| I hope Paul Graham takes a principled stand and tweets his
| support for Biggar.
|
| https://twitter.com/search?q=from%3Apaulg%20%22cancel%20cult...
| version_five wrote:
| Is Paul B getting kicked out the same thing as "cancel
| culture"? It seems like he's violated a rule of a voluntary
| group he was in, and was kicked out of that group. I know its
| subjective, but I don't think that's "being cancelled" in the
| sense that it's usually used. Its more like if you lost your
| diving license for speeding.
| [deleted]
| pokstad wrote:
| I'm also surprised how many people bragged about jumping ahead in
| line when elderly people with much higher mortality rates were
| still waiting for theirs. At least keep it to yourself.
| CamperBob2 wrote:
| Agreed. When eligibility opened up, we drove 100 miles just to
| avoid potentially taking doses from people at risk in the metro
| area. Seemed like a good excuse to get out of the house for a
| road trip, as well as being the right thing to do.
|
| We were able to schedule immediate appointments in an adjacent
| county populated by hardcore Trumpers. Upon arriving at the
| drive-through vaccination site, there was only one other car in
| the lot. No danger of cutting the line in _that_ county.
| istorical wrote:
| We don't have full information about this story though. It
| may well be the case that the YC founder called out for lying
| about his qualifications for the vaccine was at a vaccination
| location where there were zero lines and poor community
| uptake of the vaccine. Idle doses sitting around doing
| nothing. At this point, the US has so many extra doses that
| it is shipping millions overseas. Depending on the location
| and timing of the founder who lied, he may be ethically doing
| a moral good by reducing his own potential to transmit the
| virus amidst a population of people who refuse to get
| inoculated anyway.
|
| My point is only, it's sometimes dangerous to throw stones
| without asking questions or getting the full picture first.
| Taking doses when you aren't qualified for them is overall a
| bad thing I think we can all agree.
| [deleted]
| Hamuko wrote:
| I've seen people solicit stuff like electronics if someone
| could "get them a vaccine". This stuff is driving people nuts.
| [deleted]
| choppaface wrote:
| I have worked for YC founders that have shared far more
| disturbing things from the YC forum to non-members. If the
| banning is for violating privacy or public mocking (no matter how
| small of a "public" it might be), the YC moderation here is
| pretty biased. The internal forum is pretty huge now, I guess
| they're Doing Things That Don't Scale (TM).
| ible wrote:
| What an excellent demonstration of what values/norms a group
| really cares about.
|
| Biggar violated the all time favourite in-group rule: Don't talk
| out of school. Don't talk about fight club. Don't snitch.
|
| The other founders violated a norm against pushing yourself ahead
| and taking advantage of others that doesn't even seem to hold in
| many groups, especially upper class/wealthy ones.
| courtf wrote:
| I waited until I was eligible, which was about a month ago.
| Anyone could have lied about their eligibility and gotten shots
| early, and although I wasn't comfortable doing so, I also don't
| begrudge people who did. Frankly, the vaccine should have been
| distributed more widely from the beginning. It was disheartening
| to watch the politics play out where only the "most deserving"
| people were granted vaccine, which quickly turned into "hospital
| executives, their families, & high ranking admin" before they got
| around to the most deserving.
|
| I certainly wouldn't have encouraged a group of wealthy or soon-
| to-be wealthy tech founders to lie for vaccine. "Hacking the
| system" has always implied a sort of robinhood ethos, at least to
| me, not just greed purely for its own sake. I guess it's easy to
| be confused when you were raised inside the bubble and everything
| is monopoly money.
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