[HN Gopher] The only Buddhist region in Europe
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The only Buddhist region in Europe
Author : janandonly
Score : 151 points
Date : 2021-05-26 10:03 UTC (12 hours ago)
(HTM) web link (www.dw.com)
(TXT) w3m dump (www.dw.com)
| wesleywt wrote:
| I love how their home page has the Doge meme.
| Black101 wrote:
| was it an ad? I dont see it...
| qwerty456127 wrote:
| It seems weird Buddhism is such a minor religion in Europe while
| it is so rational, based on individual experience (rather than
| belief) gained through reproducible applied self-regulation
| techniques, backed by neuroscience and explained with consistent
| philosophical logic.
| ksec wrote:
| >Buddhism is such a minor religion
|
| I guess there are group of people who believe in Buddhism as
| philosophy rather than religion. Although comparatively
| speaking still very minor.
| cscurmudgeon wrote:
| > consistent philosophical logic
|
| Agree on the rest, but not sure about that. Buddhism is well
| known for inconsistencies.
|
| https://scholarworks.smith.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1...
|
| I feel poetic inconsistencies/contradictions are the ancient
| world's equivalent of clickbait.
| rthomas6 wrote:
| Western/secular Buddhism popularized in the west is generally
| not the same as Buddhism practiced in Buddhist countries. The
| actual Buddhist religion teachings can include, depending on
| the branch:
|
| - Hell and heaven realms where you can get reincarnated into if
| you've lived an especially bad or good life
|
| - Various gods and demons
|
| - A timeline spanning trillions of years and hundreds of
| Buddhas
|
| - "Celestial Buddhas" that came from space
|
| - Enlightenment is now impossible in this world because it's
| too corrupt. If you chant enough, this or that Buddha will
| reincarnate you into their personal realm where you can become
| enlightened.
|
| The majority of Buddhists in the world believe and teach these
| things. The modern secular western Buddhist community is sort
| of like a Theravada-lite in my opinion. Theravada already
| doesn't have a lot of the above, but they do have
| reincarnation, different realms, magic powers, etc. In the west
| the Four Noble Truths and Noble Eightfold Path are emphasized
| while chanting, ritual, etc. as well as supernatural beliefs
| are downplayed.
|
| So when you say that Buddhism is rational and consistent,
| you're referring to a westernized version of it. In my opinion,
| what Siddhartha Gautama actually taught, or at least what early
| Buddhism seems to have been, is somewhat close to the pared-
| down westernized version of Buddhism, just in a Hindu context
| and belief system due to the time and location of the
| teachings. But this set of teachings is NOT the same as the
| religion of Buddhism as practiced by most Buddhists.
|
| All that being said, something real is in the core teachings.
| You don't have to take anyone's word for it. You don't have to
| have faith in anything. Just learn to look inside, and see for
| yourself.
| tralarpa wrote:
| The same also happened with Daoism. The West took the
| philosophical part and ignored for many years the cultural
| aspects, belief system, and worshipping rituals (i.e., the
| religion) behind it. Until some scientists pointed out (quite
| recently actually, if I remember correctly) that you cannot
| just do that.
|
| I don't know much about Daoism and Buddhism, but I know a guy
| who compliments people in the West who claim to be Daoists on
| their excellent Chinese. Most of them don't get the joke (it
| seems many important texts have never been translated).
|
| Concerning Buddhism, don't certain sub-branches of Zen
| buddhism come quite close to the Western "no magic" version?
| rthomas6 wrote:
| I am not super familiar with Zen, but my understanding is
| "yes, sort of". Zen come from Mahayana path and I believe
| it retains those teachings and cosmology, but it's not as
| central. Looking at it on Wikipedia, it looks like Zen is
| all about teaching enlightenment with very little
| importance placed on much else, so in that regard, yes.
| qwerty456127 wrote:
| > Hell and heaven realms where you can get reincarnated into
| if you've lived an especially bad or good life
|
| The hells (there are many cold hot and cold hells) and
| heavens and other realms of the dharmaic cosmology are
| important metaphors making a lot of
| philosophical/psychological sense. You can easily tell where
| are you supposed to reincarnate if you are sufficiently self-
| aware. Once you practice enough you can become more or less
| free from the tendencies of your mind which are meant to put
| you there or there and this will improve your overall health,
| mood and productivity. You can even realize that you already
| are living in particular realm actually despite living in the
| same world everybody else is from the physical point of view.
|
| > Enlightenment is now impossible in this world because it's
| too corrupt. If you chant enough, this or that Buddha will
| reincarnate you into their personal realm where you can
| become enlightened.
|
| Also makes sense: it indeed is very hard (if at all possible)
| to become completely free from how your neural system is
| preconditioned to react to what happens around. And if you
| feel bad about this you better chant than panic or do
| unpleasant things other religions followers might believe
| they should to do.
|
| Also, no matter how much mythology does Buddhism contain,
| that comes packed with very practical and objective goodies,
| readily available to everybody interested. Buddhists would
| teach you to maintain mental health and wouldn't label you a
| heretic if you ignore parts of the teachings or interpret
| them your own way (unless you start propagating your
| unorthodox views too aggressively). Isn't this nice?
| pradn wrote:
| In addition, Buddhism monasticism in at least the first
| millennium and a half of its life was simultaneously
| cloistered off from the laypeople, but also very much of it -
| individual monks owned and invested property and so did the
| monasteries themselves. Buddhism did not glorify poverty for
| laypeople - instead the idea was to be wealthy and support
| the monastics. That's why Buddhism was so popular among
| merchants, who spread it from India into Afghanistan, and
| through the Silk Road on to China. (A sea route south-east
| was also taken at the same time.)
|
| In first millennium China, Buddhist monasteries owned up to
| 20% of the country's land. Enormous tracts of forest were cut
| down to supply the wood to build monasteries, temples,
| towers, and more. Buddhist monasteries even owned slaves to
| work their lands.
|
| For much of this period, certificates of Buddhist monk-hood
| were sold by the state or sub-state actors like dukes and
| princesses to quickly raise money. These certificates got one
| out of forced labor, which was often used to build Buddhist
| structures. (Forced labor was a common state inducement for
| all sorts of reasons in this time.) The explosion of "monks"
| led to crackdowns, stripping those who couldn't recite sutras
| or hadn't shaved their head of their privilege. Those with
| certificates were often exempt from certain taxes, though
| this privilege was only certain for those at imperial
| monasteries.
|
| Sources:
|
| "Buddhism in Chinese Society: An Economic History From the
| Fifth to the Tenth Centuries" By Jacques Gernet
|
| "The Buddha's Footprint: An Environmental History of Asia" By
| Johan Elverskog
| asdff wrote:
| In reading the pali cannon I was struck by how the society
| the buddha lived in seemed so tolerant of different religions
| and thought. he was a bramin, he was an ascetic, he was able
| to leave and join these groups freely without suffering any
| consequences, and it didn't seem like others particularly
| cared if he were a bramin or an ascetic or following the
| teachings of some other holy man. Everyone he studied under
| basically levels with him that they are on the same quest,
| looking for a decent philosophy to subscribe to, sampling the
| field in the process and trying different things, engaging in
| discussions with people of different ideas. It read almost
| like the situation in western countries today, where people
| might try out different churches or take classes covering
| different religions freely, without societal judgement, or
| even have no strong religious convictions at all. The
| teachings described are basically cognitive behavioral
| therapy, but framed in the philosophical language they were
| using back then which was theological. It almost reads like
| the budhha was a depressed person in existential crisis until
| he had his moment of enlightenment, and the other teachers
| and followers he met along the way were similarly depressed
| people looking for a treatment in a world where there wasn't
| one.
| brink wrote:
| As a child I had a subconscious assumption that Christianity
| wasn't rational, and maintained that view into my mid-twenties.
| Thankfully, I had the drive to do research on it, and an open
| enough mind to accept it, because I was ready to reject
| Christianity completely for a short period. I know this view
| isn't popular, but today, I see Christianity as the most
| rational philosophy/religion out there.
|
| I think it's been wrongfully misconstrued as irrational by
| people who don't really understand the religion, inside and
| out.
| qwerty456127 wrote:
| > I think it's been wrongfully misconstrued as irrational by
| people who don't really understand the religion, inside and
| out.
|
| You mean by 99.9% of the people. I have no doubt there is
| everything one may need to get enlightened in Christianity
| also but Christians have seemingly done amazing job obscuring
| that.
| boxed wrote:
| You don't need to know much about it. Christians believe in a
| god. That's open and shut right there.
| rsynnott wrote:
| I mean, these days, at least in Europe, quite a lot of
| people who identify as Christians _don't_, or certainly not
| a personal god.
| collias wrote:
| Belief in a god in itself is not really that irrational.
|
| Even secular thoughts like simulation theory agree in some
| sort of force that is outside of the material space-time
| universe we exist in.
| tengbretson wrote:
| I don't think the belief in creation by God requires any
| more leaps of faith than a belief in other cosmologies,
| such as the big bang, etc.
| andredz wrote:
| What do you mean by other cosmologies?
|
| "Belief in creation by God" is not mutually exclusive
| with believing that the Big Bang model correctly
| describes the structure and evolution of the universe.
| Belief in creation by God is not another option among an
| array of cosmological models, since it is not even a
| scientific model.
|
| Anyway, I'm trying to understand what you mean my there
| not being a difference in leaps of faith required...
|
| "Now faith is confidence in what we hope for and
| assurance about what we do not see. [...] By faith we
| understand that the universe was formed at God's command,
| so that what is seen was not made out of what was
| visible."
|
| Perhaps there are scientists that depend on a certain
| model not being proven incorrect for their own research
| to be viable, then, they might hope for something that
| they do not see. If (<- not biconditional ;p) that model
| stands on a solid basis they might even have confidence
| and some assurance about its truth. Is this somewhat what
| you mean?
|
| In any case, I don't think that believing that a certain
| cosmological model is correct requires someone to be
| confident with regards to it. The currently predominant
| model might not be 100% right and that's perfectly fine.
| Thus, "belief in other cosmologies" might not require one
| to have faith while the verse quoted above states that it
| is through faith that someone understands that God is
| behind the creation.
|
| (Unless you want to say that confidence in the scientific
| method is required for belief in a scientific model, but
| then, confidence in history (or God!) might be required
| on the other side as well, and so on).
|
| Then, at least 1 more leap of faith is required, wouldn't
| you say? I'm not sure, tbh. :-)
|
| But then, faith being involved in a process is not
| necessarily wrong (nor necessarily good).
| skywal_l wrote:
| The big bang is a scientific hypothesis. You don't have
| to believe in it. You can accept it because it was
| proven, reject because it was disproven or suspend your
| judgement in between.
| DataGata wrote:
| The Big Bang has physical evidence for its existence that
| you can personally verify.
| tengbretson wrote:
| If I hypothesize that a blue Honda Civic was the origin
| of space, time and the known universe, physical evidence
| that blue Honda Civics exist does absolutely nothing to
| confirm or refute my hypothesis.
| biztos wrote:
| Yes, but in practice who follows it to that level of
| detail?
|
| From a layperson's point of view, are the astrophysicists
| that much different than a priestly caste?
|
| I believe the physicists, but I don't think that by
| itself makes me a particularly rigorous thinker. In the
| ancient world I probably would have believed the priests,
| because it was what made sense to people.
|
| And for better or for worse we have lots of evidence that
| people can reject science and still enjoy its benefits.
| It's not like refusing to believe in the Big Bang gets
| you blacklisted from using rockets or microchips, or
| rejecting evolution means you can't get vaccinated.
| skywal_l wrote:
| > From a layperson's point of view, are the
| astrophysicists that much different than a priestly
| caste?
|
| I have yet to see an astrophysicists burn you on a cross
| because you don't "believe" in the big bang.
| x3iv130f wrote:
| Christians have always been 1/3 scholar, 1/3 philosopher, and
| 1/3 priest.
|
| The premise of Christianity is "revelation". That a higher
| power revealed knowledge to humans that is not knowable by
| any other means.
|
| That there is revealed knowledge has meant that Christians
| spend much of their time thinking about and working out the
| implications of their revealed knowledge and trying to fit it
| into the rest of the world.
|
| How rational you find Christianity depends on willing you are
| to accept it's premise. If you are then it is completely
| rational. If you aren't then it is nothing but castles built
| in the clouds.
| tom_mellior wrote:
| What knowledge would that be? At least in these
| Catholicism-dominated parts, that knowledge seems to look
| something like "you better watch it because you're a sinner
| and might end up burning in hell, except that Jesus saved
| you because he loves you, but for some reason despite being
| saved you are _still_ a sinner and might end up burning in
| hell ". You kind of sound like that's not the premise you
| mean.
| cryptochamorro wrote:
| The whole "Catholic guilt" thing is of often pointed to
| as some whacky vehicle of control, which is a total
| mischaracterization of what that perspective is meant to
| do.
|
| Many religions and philosophers understand the idea that
| humans are not basically good people. They are generally
| self centered and not sacrificial. So to say that
| Catholicism or Christianity is strange for placing
| emphasis on our "fallenness" is a little unfair IMHO.
|
| The daily struggle of a Christian is to strive to rid
| one's self of their sinful desires (selfish / evil) and
| live as Christ commands. This a continual process, and
| one that cannot be stopped. If one just "gets tired" of
| being a Christian, and lives differently, then they are
| in danger of losing their salvation.
|
| I only go into this detail to illustrate that there is
| more to "Catholic guilt" than a flippant "critique".
| wirrbel wrote:
| The roman branch of christianity (from which Roman
| Catholicism and protestantism arise) are hugely
| influenced by lawyers and roman law, which emphasises
| sinning and punishment a lot. If you are a sinner your
| priest is a parole officer.
|
| The eastern christianity still recognises sin, but treats
| it more like a disease, the priest is more of a doctor.
|
| I find this more appealing from a philosophical point of
| view, yet I lack any reason to believe.
| thrww20210329 wrote:
| More people should know about the apparitions that have
| taken place in Catholicism:
|
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Miracle_of_the_Sun
|
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marian_apparition
|
| These apparitions provide a lot of revealed knowledge which
| is not in the Bible necessarily.
| tomcooks wrote:
| Could you explain what's rational about Christianity?
| Moreover, do you refer to a specific branch or Christianity
| as a whole?
| cyberbanjo wrote:
| On that subject the blog undivided looking touches on using
| applied history and theology to rationalize Christianity.
| It appeals to my sense of mrationality at least.
|
| http://www.wall.org/~aron/blog/
| andredz wrote:
| I would recommend that blog as well; it is among my
| favorite places on the internet. Aron's writings have had
| a huge and very positive impact in my life.
| bnralt wrote:
| I took a look at that blog, but it doesn't seem
| historical at all to me (for example, I can't think of
| any historian that dates the synoptics to before 70 AD).
| I also can't say I'm a fan of the way he treats other
| denominations of Christianity as non-Christian religions.
|
| For a good historical look at Christianity, I'd recommend
| people look into the Religions of the Ancient
| Mediterranean podcast, the NT Pod podcast, or, for the
| old testament, the writings of Mark S. Smith (you can
| also find lectures of his on Youtube).
| BitwiseFool wrote:
| Speaking as an Atheist, Christianity gets a very bad rap from
| popular culture and because of the fact that so many people
| in the west know about it's core tenets but they only have a
| casual understanding of the theology. And thus, it's much
| more readily criticized.
| vmception wrote:
| It is rational to say that creature won. It is not rational
| to worship it out of love, which Christians began doing.
| Whatever it is, it does not act in the interest of mankind.
| biztos wrote:
| Plenty -- most? -- forms of Buddhism also have tons of
| mysticism, gods, reincarnation, and other stuff that would have
| to compete with Europe's other religious traditions.
|
| What you're saying is sort of like reducing Christianity to
| "love thy neighbor" and wondering why that didn't catch on
| wherever people are nice.
|
| I'm in a Buddhist country right now, and I really dig it, and
| I'm learning all kinds of awesome things about how people live
| -- but I'm not sure I'd say the locals are more _rational_ than
| the Europeans. Nor would I say the Europeans are necessarily
| more rational than anybody else... maybe "performative
| rationalism" would be a good term?
| foxyv wrote:
| A lot of secular buddhists tend to identify as humanists
| instead. It's a very popular saying: "Don't use buddhism to
| become a buddhist. Use buddhism to become a better whatever you
| are."
| today20201014 wrote:
| Perhaps people experience cognitive dissonance when reconciling
| the things that you mentioned with beliefs about reincarnation
| _?
|
| _ I am relying on a rather common and uninformed understanding
| of Buddhism here, so I may be way off base.
|
| EDIT: I had to look it up, but I guess European culture has
| contained some sort of belief in reincarnation (Plato's
| Republic, Book X / Myth of Er). I don't suppose this belief has
| much traction anymore, despite the strong influence of Plato
| (or Greek philosophy in general) on Christianity.
| boxed wrote:
| It's not reinkarnation. It's rebirth. Buddhism explicitly
| rejects the idea of a soul so reinkarnation would be very
| strange. Rebirth is something else that can be difficult to
| explain...
| qwerty456127 wrote:
| > Perhaps people experience cognitive dissonance when
| reconciling the things that you mentioned with beliefs about
| reincarnation?
|
| Reincarnation was the only thing to come into my mind when I
| heard "buddhism" when I was a schoolboy. I had zero idea of
| what else is Buddhism about back then. Later, as I learnt
| more I found out (or came to an opinion) "reincarnation"
| itself is a fairly unimportant concept. Perhaps it is only
| there to attract/repel public and to be another target for
| becoming indifferent to as you progress.
|
| It may also be beneficial to imagine you being reincarnated
| in a particular realm of existence and contemplating what you
| would experience. Imagine you are going to heaven where you
| are going to live millennia never forgetting... that you are
| going to hell after that, inevitably, like for real, and try
| to come in peace with that. That would be an exercise.
| vmception wrote:
| Have you been to Europe? Many countries there masquerade as the
| developed nations seen in Northwest and Central Europe, while
| actually unaffiliated countries around the world aspire to be
| seen as developed.
|
| A lot of irrational things happen at the cultural and state
| level in Europe, with an iron thumb of redundancy keeping those
| silly states in check.
| yakshaving_jgt wrote:
| > Buddhism ... is so rational ... and explained with consistent
| philosophical logic.
|
| Are you sure? Perhaps you ought to read about Sokushinbutsu[0].
|
| [0]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sokushinbutsu
| qwerty456127 wrote:
| I can recognize no problem in this. To me this seems a
| particularly rational way to die once you feel it's time to.
| Dying the traditionally western way - suddenly, following
| disability and sickness, seems way more scary.
| [deleted]
| est wrote:
| Fun fact: Lenin's grandma is from Kalmykia and have Mongol origin
| MeinBlutIstBlau wrote:
| Well that explains the death tolls
| dang wrote:
| If you continue to post unsubstantive and/or flamebait
| comments like this one and
| https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27285538, we're going to
| have to ban you.
|
| If you wouldn't mind reviewing
| https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html and sticking
| to the rules when posting here, we'd be grateful.
| hangonhn wrote:
| Tangentially related, there is a Greek influence on Buddhism in
| East Asia because Buddhism arrived in China via the Greek
| Bactrian kingdom. The Buddha as depicted in East Asia is wearing
| Greek robes and there are elements of Greek philosophy in
| Buddhism as practiced in East Asia.
|
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greco-Buddhism
| contingencies wrote:
| Surprised this is the top thread and unchallenged.
|
| _Buddhism arrived in China via the Greek Bactrian kingdom_
|
| {{citation-needed}}. Buddhism arrived in the geographic region
| currently encompassed by the modern Chinese state via multiple
| routes over more than a thousand years including innumerable
| exchanges through the overall Tarim Basin (Xinjiang) or "silk
| road" area via modern Tajikistan, Afghanistan and Pakistan but
| also via Tibet and by sea through Southeast Asia (Myanmar,
| Cambodia, Laos, Vietnam, and probably some sporadic oceanic
| contact with South Asia and Buddhist kingdoms in Indonesia).
| Tajikistan in particular is only slightly archaeologically
| investigated to date owing to its remote location, poor
| infrastructure, geopolitical challenges and IIRC the use of
| mines during 20th century military conflicts. In short, like
| any other set of ideas it probably arrived in waves of
| migration, monkly pilgrimages, exchanges, and instances of
| official diplomacy. There are records of Buddhism being
| preached to China by the geographically proximal Yuezhi people
| as early as 2BCE. Classical Chinese history teaches that
| Buddhism "came to China" in 67CE. Hellenistic artistic styles
| are, to my knowledge, never mentioned.
|
| _Buddha as depicted in East Asia is wearing Greek robes_
|
| The robes are not Greek, they are Buddhist. Buddhism was
| established in the sixth century BCE. We can read that in
| Buddhist tradition monks are only allowed a robe and a begging
| bowl, and that the historical Buddha also set forth a tradition
| that discouraged iconography as improper worship of likeness
| (idolatry). This may be because Buddha composed his philosophy
| in reaction to the prevailing religious environment, where he
| had previously partaken in such habits which were and remain
| deeply culturally entrenched.
|
| In short, Greco-Buddhist art is influential because it is, in a
| sense, the first major period with any voluminous production of
| "Buddhist art" (a notion decidedly _not Buddhist_ ), and in any
| event, the Hellenistic style robes primarily only affects
| Mahayana art, and the modern geographical scope of China also
| encompasses an endemic Vajrayana philosophy, Theravada, and
| Tibetan. Even within Mahayana artistic tradition in China, I
| don't see how a cursory inspection of - for example - robes
| depicted at
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinese_Buddhist_sculpture or
| https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Category:Buddhist_sculptu...
| could conclude they're all Greek-influenced. Such a claim is
| tenuous at best.
|
| _there are elements of Greek philosophy in Buddhism as
| practiced in East Asia._
|
| I have never heard anyone make this claim. If we flip the
| claim, as Buddhist _jataka_ tales are known to Christianity,
| the reverse could also be said: "elements of Indian philosophy
| in Christianity as practiced in Europe". Such a statement,
| outside of tangential academic arguments, is broadly untrue.
| hangonhn wrote:
| My apologies for the mistakes in my statement. You seen to
| know much, much about this topic than me; thank you for
| adding the nuances this complex topic. My comment was based
| on my recollection of what I saw at the San Francisco Museum
| of Asian Arts and some of the descriptions I read there about
| the various pieces. In all likelihood, my recollection was
| either incorrect and/or incomplete. I cited the Wikipedia
| article because it seems to reflect similar ideas as my
| recollection and also in case anyone else found the topic as
| fascinating as I did.
|
| I'm past the window for editing my original comment but if
| the mods don't mind, it would be great to qualify my original
| comment with the response.
| contingencies wrote:
| No worries happy to share. FYI I spent most of my 20s and
| early 30s traveling with an interest in this topic so have
| visited most museums out there (including SF) as well as
| many historic sites (including the white horse temple, most
| major Buddhist sculptural sites in China, remote border
| areas, various ancient sites in SEA, etc.). It is a true
| shame that the historic depth of cultural exchange that
| evidently occurred in these regions is seemingly being
| systemically oppressed from the popular and academic record
| due to modern-day geopolitical concerns.
|
| Most people have never heard of, for example,
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nanzhao
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Srivijaya
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M%E1%BB%B9_S%C6%A1n
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ajall_Shams_al-Din_Omar
| (forbear of https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zheng_He )
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paduka_Pahala
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quanzhou#History etc.
|
| After traveling broadly my biggest recommendation is to
| visit the _Museum of World Religions_ in Taipei, Taiwan. It
| 's a real gem.
| tombh wrote:
| Indeed, before the Greeks The Buddha would most commonly only
| be depicted by his absence, an empty chair or foot prints most
| famously. It's amazing that the iconography of a religion so
| ancient and "exotic" is so significantly shaped by European
| culture.
| routerl wrote:
| > It's amazing that the iconography of a religion so ancient
| and "exotic" is so significantly shaped by European culture.
|
| It's more an instance of convergence and mutual influence.
| Hellenistic philosophy (read: immediately after Socrates)
| went down a few different lines. The one with the largest
| influence in the West was the Academic line, concerned with
| empirical observations and theory making.
|
| But another major line was about how to live well, and
| focused primarily on ethics and the virtues. Today, the most
| well known school in this line is Stoicism, and this approach
| to philosophy really has a lot of overlap with Buddhism. The
| Bactrians were extremely well primed to be receptive of some
| "wisdom from the East" (like the type Pythagoras was supposed
| to have received) that covered a lot of the same topics as
| Hellenistic philosophy.
|
| By the time Buddhism was meaningfully re-introduced to
| European academics (starting around the 17th century, but
| culminating with Schopenhaur in the 19th), several writers
| once again remarked on the similarities between the
| Hellenistic and Buddhist traditions.
| skywal_l wrote:
| Even the "live well" philosophies were heavily influenced
| by India. Democritus, the father of antique materialism
| which lead to Epicurus and Lucretius was heavily influenced
| by gymnosophists when he traveled to India.
|
| Realized this when I was talking about it with an Indian
| Colleague and when I mention the principals of materialism
| she immediately recognized elements of her own religion.
| jbay808 wrote:
| I never realized that Democritus traveled to India. What
| an amazing journey that must have been.
| asdff wrote:
| Hellenism is not a strictly European culture. Most of the
| hellenic world population lived in Africa or the middle east.
| These were much larger population centers than cities greece,
| italy, or anywhere else in the European Mediterranean at the
| time.
| Archelaos wrote:
| I always find it quite embarrassing when right-wing politicians
| here in Germany come up with this or that does not belong to
| Europe. In all cases this only shows their geographical and
| historical ignorance. Kalmykia is a good example. Most of these
| politicians have never understood that Buddism has been part of
| Europe for centuries. My favorite example, however, is that they
| mostly do not know that we have had a permanent Muslim settlement
| in Europe since the Middle Ages, which is on the same latitude as
| Edinburgh and Copenhagen: the territory of the former Khanate of
| Kazan.[1]
|
| [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Khanate_of_Kazan
| Grustaf wrote:
| Kazan is a pretty weak argument for thinking Arab immigration
| into Northern Europe in the 2000s would go smoothly.
| MomoXenosaga wrote:
| Does it matter? Germany is a secular state religion is
| irrelevant.
| michael1999 wrote:
| That is not my understanding.
|
| https://www.dw.com/en/the-opaque-financing-of-germanys-
| churc...
| tomcooks wrote:
| Seems to matter to said politicians, exclusively during PR
| campaigning.
| hulitu wrote:
| Well, it is not. The catolic church has a lot of economic and
| political power in Germany.
| MomoXenosaga wrote:
| Your religion has no impact on your citizenship or rights.
| It's what sets Europe apart and that's what should make
| right wing extremists proud not Christian heritage.
| publicola1990 wrote:
| More than the Protestants?
| himlion wrote:
| They are way more fractured. the Catholic Church is one
| mega entity.
| cygx wrote:
| _> They are way more fractured_
|
| In Germany, to a far lesser degree than eg the US. Cf htt
| ps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evangelical_Church_in_Germany
| oytis wrote:
| Not quite. Church tax in one matter. Also Muslim women
| wearing headscarfs are discriminated in access to certain
| positions in government service e.g. at school, at courts
| etc.
|
| UPD And also we have Bavaria :)
| anoncake wrote:
| Muslim headscarves are banned because we're a secular state
| and the state has to be neutral in religious matters. The
| Christian Democratic Union would never discriminate on the
| basis of religion.
|
| There is a cross in every classroom because the previous
| sentence was an obvious lie.
| rat87 wrote:
| That's the opposite of neutrality
|
| True neutrality/freedom of religion would let people make
| personal choices about religous clothing. I'm not
| surprised that France has something so ridiculous but I'm
| somewhat disappointed that Germany would also fail to
| understand this
| anoncake wrote:
| I think you misunderstood me. Of course it's the opposite
| of neutrality -- that's merely a fig leaf because
| Christianity isn't _officially_ the state religion so
| conservative politicians cannot directly ban headscarves
| for being unchristian.
| fogihujy wrote:
| > this or that does not belong to Europe
|
| People who're upset about people abandoning old traditions in
| favour of imported ones should probably aim their ire at their
| own grandparents, for embracing U.S. and British rock'n'roll
| culture, rather than local traditions.
|
| It's not like the majority stopped going to church because
| someone else built a mosque.
|
| Also, we need to get history back as an major part of the
| curriculum - societies start doing dumb stuff when they forget
| their own past.
| Mediterraneo10 wrote:
| While Kalmyk Buddhism is geographically in Europe, it is in a
| very peripheral part of the continent with virtually no impact
| on European culture in general. So, it is still reasonable to
| claim that Buddhism is something foreign to Europe. After all,
| Buddhism only began to have a real impact culturally in the
| 19th century with translated literature coming from India and
| East Asia, not Kalmykia.
|
| With regard to Islam in geographical Europe, yes there is
| Tatarstan (and bits of adjacent regions), but Muscovy conquered
| that Muslim power in the mid 16th century and subsequently made
| it very clear that while Islam exists there, it is only at the
| mercy of Christian rulers. Historically, during the tsarist era
| Muslims were forbidden from trying to convert the Christian
| population.
|
| Perhaps a better example of "Muslims have been in Europe for a
| long time" (excepting Ottoman converts, as they are seen as
| forced conversions/uninvited guests/traitors by nationalist
| demagogues) would be those Tatars (same name as the Kazan
| Tatars but not closely related) who settled in the Polish-
| Lithuanian Commonwealth, but again their impact on the
| surrounding culture was minuscule, and ultimately they
| assimilated into the Slavic-speaking Christian population.
| febeling wrote:
| To call that bend on the Volga where Kazan is located Europe
| shows how much you need to stretch the facts to support that
| view. Citing Bosnia might have helped your point better, I
| guess.
| Tabular-Iceberg wrote:
| I checked it out on a map, it looks like it's on this side of
| the Urals by a pretty good margin, so I don't see how it's at
| all a stretch.
| Grustaf wrote:
| If someone talks about "Europe" they are not referring to
| "anything west of the Urals", they mean Germany, France
| etc, possibly Hungary, Slovakia etc or, if they are feeling
| generous, Ukraine and Belarus.
|
| It has never happened that two people were chatting about
| "European culture and values" and had the khanate of Kazan
| in mind.
| michael1999 wrote:
| Isn't that exactly the point? There is a geographic
| Europe which is much larger and more diverse than NATO
| Europe, the EU, or Christian Europe like to admit.
| Grustaf wrote:
| What is the point about that? Nobody is worried about
| "geographic Europe", people care about actual Europe, not
| some technical term.
|
| If someone is worried that Arab Muslims, or for that
| matter Arab Christians, will not assimilate into European
| culture and are incompatible with European values, how is
| it even remotely relevant that there is a tiny federal
| subject in what is technically European Russia where
| there's a lot of Muslims?
|
| Only someone entirely unfamiliar with Europe would think
| this makes any difference. If you want to talk about
| Islam, focus instead on Bosnia, in the heart of Europe.
| While definitely not without their issues, comparing
| Bosniaks and Assyrians show that culture is more relevant
| than religion when it comes to integration.
| michael1999 wrote:
| What is "actual" Europe? Who gets to decide?
|
| Consider Russia: are they, or are they not "European"? Is
| the Orthodox Church European?
|
| That you think the answer is so simple, or that anyone
| who thinks differently is "nobody" is part of why it is
| so unsettled.
| Grustaf wrote:
| It's not a simple question, that's not the point.
|
| I happen to be Orthodox, and having lived in Russia I can
| say that the answer varies depending on context. Most of
| the time Europe is the "other". European standard means
| high quality, "My brother works in Europe", a "European
| car" etc. Even when contrasting Russia with very exotic
| cultures most people wouldn't see Russia as part of
| Europe, they just say "Japan is different from Russia",
| not "from Europe". And I'm not sure it's a very
| meaningful question either.
|
| What is clear is that there are very few cases where
| people would consider Kazan European. I haven't been
| there, but I highly doubt they feel very European, in any
| sense. And there are exactly 0 cases where anyone ever
| would find it _representative_ of "Europe", and that is
| what we are discussing here.
|
| It simply doesn't make sense to say "There are Muslims in
| Kazan and that is technically Europe so anyone objecting
| to Arab Muslims in Munich is wrong". That's just a silly
| argument.
|
| I've also lived in Jordan and I can tell you that Muslims
| there don't feel any particular connection with those in
| Kazan. Circassians may perhaps feel differently, I don't
| know.
| Tabular-Iceberg wrote:
| I just think the conventional definition of Europe makes
| sense. Narrower definitions are too ephemeral for my
| taste, with countries constantly being absorbed into and
| breaking out of empires as they wax and wane, whereas the
| Ural mountains aren't going anywhere soon.
|
| That said, to address the point that started the
| discussion, I think it's just silly to use "there exists
| some Muslim country somewhere else" as some kind of
| gotcha against German critics of Islam. The Ottomans were
| milling around Vienna for a long time, that's a whole lot
| closer than either Bosnia or Kazan.
| arethuza wrote:
| If I use the term "Europe" I mean the usual definition of
| the continent of Europe which is pretty much "everything
| west of the Urals".
|
| As far as I'm concerned, Moscow is in Europe.
| Grustaf wrote:
| You're not from Europe I presume?
| arethuza wrote:
| Scotland, so yes I am.
| cmrdporcupine wrote:
| How about this, then: the region we're talking about is right
| in the homeland of the Yamnaya people, AKA the people who
| spoke Proto-Indo-European, and the ancestors of all
| Europeans. ("region between the Southern Bug, Dniester, and
| Ural rivers" as per WP)
|
| In terms of genetics, the R1b haplogroup spread from that
| region, and is the most common haplogroup among modern
| Europeans.
|
| So, if you're European or European-descended, many of your
| ancestors lived there a few thousand years ago. And the
| language you just wrote in traces its ancestry back to that
| region (as does German)
|
| EDIT: The point of what I wrote is just that the ethno-
| linguistic composition of regions is very fluid, and drawing
| lines around a region and saying "this is what German is" (or
| whatever) is just a dumb exercise when you put it in
| historical context. (My own ancestors include many in Alsace,
| so I'm keenly aware of this -- what's "French"? what's
| "German"?). Essentialism is dumb.
| dvfjsdhgfv wrote:
| All this is because humans prefer to generalize rather than be
| precise and this applies to both left and right.
|
| Right, because Islam is an old religion and has been a part of
| Europe (and other continents) for centuries; these native
| Muslim communities are in general well-integrated and have a
| rich history; they have nothing to do with ISIS-style
| extremism. There are peaceful Muslim communities often react
| immediately when a crime is committed in the name of their
| religion.
|
| Left, because "all cultures are equal" it's a convenient lie t
| with no connection to reality. There are toxic, terrible
| cultures where some members mutilate others, for example.
| Sometimes these atrocities are related to religion, sometimes
| not. Whether we allow some of these customs to take root in
| Western societies should be a matter of public debate, not a
| political decision that future generations will have to deal
| with.
| ainiriand wrote:
| When you say that all cultures are equal is a lie, do you
| mean that there are cultures that are better than others?
| Maybe you mean that there are certain aspects of some
| cultures that are worth abandoning and some others worth
| preserving. Do you think there is nothing left to improve in
| Western culture?
| dvfjsdhgfv wrote:
| > When you say that all cultures are equal is a lie, do you
| mean that there are cultures that are better than others?
| Maybe you mean that there are certain aspects of some
| cultures that are worth abandoning and some others worth
| preserving.
|
| Yes, I mean both. There are some cultures with a strong
| aspect of physical violence that is almost a defining
| factor (for the members of these groups). Taken together,
| these aspects sometimes far outweigh the positive ones.
|
| > Do you think there is nothing left to improve in Western
| culture?
|
| There is a _lot_ to learn from. A bigger concern is that
| Western culture and related values are extremely invasive
| and try to dominate all other cultures so there is less and
| less of originality left with everything getting
| westernized. But we must not be afraid of criticizing these
| aspects of _any_ culture that involve violence against
| others (this could be anyone - outsiders, other tribes,
| family members of given gender etc.).
| hulitu wrote:
| A cherry culture is definitely better than a potato
| culture. Between humans however as a philosopher once said:
| The worm that he thinks is the better between his kind will
| suddenly became man.
| tomcooks wrote:
| If you want to have fun with right-wing politicians that
| blabber about "our Christian roots", just ask them how they
| feel about Christianity being a subset of Judaism.
| intricatedetail wrote:
| Some people love gatekeeping, on both left and right spectrum.
| Power is a drug and this gives them a kick.
| browningstreet wrote:
| Yeah, it's never about politicians' "ignorance" or lack of
| knowledge. That's irrelevant. It's about their assertion and
| what alignments it creates with their base. Constantly
| correcting these kind of assertions without addressing what
| they're doing just adds to the noise.
| ainiriand wrote:
| It is also worth noting that the Iberian peninsula where it is
| now Spain was an Arab region for 800 some years. The Spanish
| language is full of words with Arab roots and Arab culture is
| everywhere in Spain.
|
| It is funny to see the right wing politics trying to preserve
| this national Spanish heritage that they came up with.
| bpodgursky wrote:
| I wouldn't say the Iberian peninsula was Arab. There was
| never a major population displacement; it was controlled by
| Arabs, but the population wasn't.
| beaconstudios wrote:
| Andalusia/Al-Andalus is probably not the best counter-
| example, as it became Islamic through an invasion. Also, much
| of Andalusia was actually Berber (from northern Africa) as
| well as Arabic.
| selimthegrim wrote:
| To say nothing of the Lipka Tatars
| bcatanzaro wrote:
| Bashkortostan is also part of Europe and very Muslim.
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bashkortostan
|
| Not to mention the Muslim Balkans.
|
| I bet there are many other examples.
| ardit33 wrote:
| Clickbait article. That's not really South East Europe though,
| but more far east, in the Asian border. Barely Europe.
|
| Southeast Europe is usually thought to be Greece, Albania,
| Croatia and the rest of the Balkan countries.
| tom_mellior wrote:
| You're right that there is a well-established term "Southeast
| Europe" to refer to the countries you mention:
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Southeast_Europe
|
| But there is also the fact that Europe continues far to the
| east of those parts, so there is another southeast corner
| somewhere else.
| u9rptDjqLl0Pdcz wrote:
| Also of interest is the Mari Native Religion which is practiced
| in the Mari El Republic of Russia[0]. I believe this is the only
| example of an indigenous religion surviving with continued
| practice into the modern day. RT made a documentary about it[1].
|
| [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mari_Native_Religion
|
| [1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hJ_2kpTJvj0
| boxed wrote:
| Hinduism? Seems like a pretty big one to forget :)
| throwaway894345 wrote:
| Is Hinduism indigenous? Wasn't that a product of Aryan
| migrations from the north? (genuine question: what
| constitutes "indigenous"? if one native american tribe drives
| out another in a particular region, is the conquering tribe
| still indigenous? What about cases where people mix to become
| a new people? Is it correct to say that the Irish, British,
| Germans, Italians, etc are indigenous Europeans?)
| yowlingcat wrote:
| > Wasn't that a product of Aryan migrations from the north?
|
| I know this isn't a great answer, but "yes and no" -- it is
| certainly true that the Proto-Indo-Europeans brought with
| them Rigvedic religion. But that religion itself was
| syncretized with other beliefs across Central Asia and
| South Asia over quite a long period of time. While it is
| often dramatized as a "violent" invasion (no doubt
| reminiscent of later "violent" "Aryan" invasions), the
| truth is more bland, which is that the nomadic Indo-Aryans
| and their ancestors had a rich level of cultural exchange
| with more settled civilizations. Some of it by the sword,
| but some of it otherwise.
| throwaway894345 wrote:
| Yeah, which I guess beckons my other question: what makes
| something indigenous considering how frequently changes
| are produced gradually by cultural exchange, gradual
| migrations, etc?
| yowlingcat wrote:
| It's a great question, and I'm inclined to ask the same
| one. My answer is that indigeneity is somewhat of a red
| herring. Empires have existed for as long as changes have
| been produced gradually by cultural exchange and gradual
| migrations as you point out, so the boundary between
| indigenous and not seems porous to me.
| u9rptDjqLl0Pdcz wrote:
| I meant to specify within Europe but it seems I missed typing
| it when I posted my comment.
| throwaway894345 wrote:
| What about the Sami?
| https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sami_shamanism
|
| Pretty sure they are indigenous and I would think their
| religion would qualify as an "indigenous religion"?
| u9rptDjqLl0Pdcz wrote:
| Has that been continuously practiced? Other wikipedia pages
| [0][1] on the Sami suggest that they were all converted to
| Christianity by the end of the 18th century. There are people
| who practice Norse paganism today but that is a reconstructed
| faith based on old writings rather than a surviving religion.
|
| [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christianization_of_the_S%C
| 3%A...
|
| [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/S%C3%A1mi_people#Religion
| throwaway894345 wrote:
| It's unclear to me. The wikipedia article doesn't say, but
| it seems to refer to it in the present tense as though it
| is still practiced. I would hope if it died out and was
| then reconstructed, the entry would mention as much. Here's
| an article linked to in the entry, which I don't have time
| to read, but sounds promising:
|
| The Decline of the Sami People's Indigenous Religion http:/
| /www.laits.utexas.edu/sami/diehtu/siida/christian/decl...
| shkkmo wrote:
| The Sami Religion was influenced by but not identical
| with Norse mythology. It appears to have been extinct for
| the last couple hundred yeats after facing a significant
| ongoing persecution and conversion.
| FuriouslyAdrift wrote:
| Uh.. how about Judaism in Israel?
| enriquto wrote:
| what about judaism or christianism, aren't they "indigenous" ?
| what do you mean exactly by indigenous?
| [deleted]
| KingMob wrote:
| Perhaps in Europe, but globally, I can think of plenty of
| others off the top of my head: the various religions of Native
| Americans/First Nations peoples, the beliefs of Aboriginal
| people in Australia, even Japanese Shinto probably qualifies.
| dkarl wrote:
| Maybe shamanism in Korea and Siberia as well.
| u9rptDjqLl0Pdcz wrote:
| Yes, I meant to say in Europe.
| MeinBlutIstBlau wrote:
| Shinto is an offshoot if Buddhism.
| snambi wrote:
| not true. Shinto predates Buddhism.
| bavent wrote:
| Shinto was in Japan before Buddhism. Zen took on a little
| bit of Shinto when it came over as Cha'an from China. In
| most Zen temples, there are a few statues of Shinto
| deities, but neither is an offshoot of the other.
| elros wrote:
| Bald has been there couple of years ago, that's when I first
| heard about it: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bR_eA_c_Yts
| string wrote:
| Just a friendly heads up: I used to be a huge fan of this YT
| channel until I saw some pretty damning evidence that the guy
| is a predatory sex tourist/pick up artist. I really enjoyed the
| content (the editing is a breath of fresh air on YT), but
| ultimately unsubbed and stopped watching. I'd encourage others
| to look into it and make your own judgement, of course.
| scanny wrote:
| Thanks for the pointer, and what I read here: https://www.red
| dit.com/r/BaldAndBaldrDossier/comments/judnlm... from a child
| comment. Won't be watching anything out of that channel
| again.
| slakrems wrote:
| He travels around the world to sleep with women. What exactly
| is wrong with that?
| mettamage wrote:
| I know many pick up artists that are in a long-term
| relationship. The group that call themselves pick up artist
| is too heterogeneous to describe them as people that have ill
| intentions.
|
| People that don't know about hackers assign similar ill
| intentions to hackers, much in the same way as pick up
| artists.
|
| But at HN we know that a hacker (criminal) is not a hacker
| (curious techie). The same goes for pick up artists
| (womanizers that are systematic about it with questionable
| ethics). You have a lot more pick up artists (men not being
| able to find relationships for years and deciding to fix that
| problem).
|
| Both groups have members in them that do stupid and/or
| criminal things which is unfortunate.
| 8fGTBjZxBcHq wrote:
| No dude they are not the same. PUA stuff came out of a
| deeply misogynist internet subculture with close ties and
| many overlaps with far right activists, "red pill"
| violence, and ethnonationalism.
|
| Plus it's just inherently manipulative and gross. I know no
| one on HN likes to hear a value judgement but seriously go
| take a look. And I'm sure someone will jump in with like
| "but it's not manipulation just acknowledging reality/it's
| empowering for shy nerds/whatever" and ok sure sure sure
| but no.
| mettamage wrote:
| > I know no one on HN likes to hear a value judgement
|
| I get it. When identity, sex and romance are concerned
| then emotions in oneself can run high. I definitely see
| it in my own comments. I feel closely to 3 groups which
| are: pick up artists, hackers and feminists. I am not
| alone in this, though definitely not a "majority".
| Whenever any of them are blanket statement attacked
| without any nuance, I offer a different perspective. I
| mostly have this with feminism since the idea of a pick
| up artist isn't used that often in Europe.
|
| > Go take a look.
|
| I did:
|
| * Double Your Dating (the page on humor is cool,
| "attraction is not a choice", don't remember anything
| else)
|
| * Juggler Method (learned about disqualification -- aka
| not taking things too seriously but then more
| methodically -- and statement of intent -- aka answering
| "why are you talking to me?" <-- and answering that
| truthfully and respectfully)
|
| * Mystery Method (high level overview, peacocking and
| getting yourself in a sociable mood, discarded the rest
| -- no negging, no routines, Mystery Method is tricky, I
| had to read this very critically since he seems a bit
| deluded and IMO most people that read this book read it
| in the wrong way and start to become negging routine
| people. IMO, not a good thing. When I read this book I
| followed a course on ethics because being sharp on that
| subject is required.)
|
| * Pickup 101 (lots of playfulness and improv)
|
| * RSD (mostly Tim's stuff, which is high energy
| optimistic positivity, didn't connect with the rest,
| Tyler seems too "Cartman-like" to me)
|
| Communities I've been part of:
|
| * Almost all Dutch communities (had friendships with some
| of the members, mostly spiritual or super down to earth
| types)
|
| * I've been to the 21 Convention in Stockholm (in 2008,
| which was the time where this was an active thing in my
| life)
|
| That's the stuff I connected with. I read much more stuff
| that I didn't connect with. Some companies are deeply
| misogynist, but the participants aren't (well some are).
| The participants are the majority of the whole culture, a
| culture that's mostly silent (and a few loud people that
| then goes on to have all the media portrayals).
|
| I've seen a few things happen in people their development
| path:
|
| * Some people become misogynistic while they weren't at
| first
|
| * Some people came in misogynistic and "sharpen their
| ways"
|
| * Some people become spiritual (a subset even celibate),
| because they realize it's not about finding love and so
| on
|
| * Some people develop a lot of hobbies and start to learn
| how to enjoy life (I love this group, you can tell they
| get a lot out of it)
|
| * Some people find a relationship
|
| * And finally there are some people that are still stuck
| with their old problem after years
|
| I have no numbers, but to insinuate that most pick up
| artists are misogynistic requires that you've been in the
| seduction community and spoke to all kinds of people from
| all walks of life that did not take the center stage and
| did not appear in the media. Because it's those people
| that make up the 99% of the culture.
|
| > many overlaps with far right activists, "red pill"
| violence, and ethnonationalism.
|
| Another thing: US and EU differ. My perspective is EU, I
| make no claims about the US since I only know the "media
| side" from there. And yea, that's not a great side to
| see.
|
| > Plus it's just inherently manipulative and gross.
|
| No it's not. Before I did this, I was too serious with
| people. I still am. Now I am aware of it and can account
| for that. This means that people have more positive
| experiences with me. Moreover, it taught me more about
| empathy from an emotional point of view (through
| meditation, the most life changing thing I've
| experienced). Being optimistic, being positive,
| empathetic and doing meditation all came because I took a
| few pages from the pick up artist playbook. There's a lot
| in their playbook, these were the most important things
| that I took from it. I do agree that there are
| gross/manipulative ideas in there. I did my best to
| filter those out. I see a lot of men do that (and
| unfortunately also a sizeable group that didn't and
| straight up got culted into some pickup company's
| philosophy).
|
| In other words: it depends, it's more nuanced, it's not
| inherently anything because reality is more complex than
| that.
| girvo wrote:
| Regardless of all that, the allegations (a rape trial,
| getting a hitchhiker to perform sex acts on him for $6
| under the threat of being left in the middle of nowhere,
| among so many others) are pretty horrendous, no?
|
| https://www.reddit.com/r/BaldAndBaldrDossier/comments/jud
| nlm...
| mettamage wrote:
| Yes they are. I wish no one would have to experience
| that. It scars people for life.
|
| Slightly off topic, but this is even more so the case
| when children have to watch the abuse (due to living in a
| small house). Some kids will never be able to develop
| normally.
|
| Source: I knew a lot of broken kids when I was their age.
| sumedh wrote:
| What is the evidence?
| abyssin wrote:
| This post convinced me: https://www.reddit.com/r/BaldAndBal
| drDossier/comments/judnlm...
| Wouter33 wrote:
| https://www.reddit.com/r/BaldAndBaldrDossier/comments/judnl
| m...
| pydry wrote:
| What specifically?
| trainsplanes wrote:
| Whenever I see this man mentioned, I always see a comment
| saying, "This man travels AND has sex!"
|
| It's about as surprising as someone visiting Amsterdam and
| having the audacity to smoke weed or single guys doing what
| single guys do when they visit SE Asia.
| cmrdporcupine wrote:
| Gross, man -- he actually brags about raping/coercing
| girls.
|
| "Oh, you'd like a taster? Well how about the time when
| Vorkuta boasts of forcing a young hitchhiker to give him a
| blowjob in exchange for $6. On the threat that if she did
| not comply he might leave her in the middle of nowhere as
| they were travelling alone in a car on some deserted
| highway somewhere in the FSU. You can only imagine how
| scared she must have been."
|
| From the previously linked: https://www.reddit.com/r/BaldAn
| dBaldrDossier/comments/judnlm...
| slakrems wrote:
| I have a different definition of "rape" seeing it thrown
| around so often. If a man can talk a woman into sex
| without blackmail, that's fair game and to be honest I
| respect him for it. It's the main thing I want o do in
| life, sleep with as many women as possible.
| trainsplanes wrote:
| People post a lot of wild stories on forums and places
| like reddit. Oftentimes they exaggerate or make up crazy
| events. It's not enough to push me to go after them.
| [deleted]
| dragonwriter wrote:
| There's two possibilities:
|
| (1) He's a proud rapist who is actively legitimizing and
| normalizing rape.
|
| (2) He thinks its cool to pretend to be a rapist and
| normalize rape, even though he isn't himself a rapist.
|
| While there's a big difference if you are, say,
| prosecuting rape, both are reasonable grounds on which
| someone might decide not to support a creator's output.
| slakrems wrote:
| Neither if your scenarios are accurate. He is a sweet
| taker that convinces women to sleep with him, there is no
| coercion or force. Honestly, I respect how much of a good
| time he is having.
| Quarrelsome wrote:
| also worth noting that some people go _well_ out of their way
| to express this point of view. There's even a subreddit
| dedicated to it (and at least once upon it was 'busy'). My
| issue is that it gives the impression that someone has a lot
| of free time and a serious axe to grind.
|
| Nothing he is accused of is illegal, it may be reprehensible
| but I don't demand moral consistency of those that entertain
| me, just adherence to the social contract of law.
| abyssin wrote:
| I'm not too surprised people spend time to express this
| point of view. I loved his channel but there was always
| something that felt a little off for me. One evening I
| launched a Google search wondering if I was the only one
| and found the subreddit. I stopped watching afterwards.
| Quarrelsome wrote:
| > I stopped watching afterwards.
|
| Do you realise if you want to be morally consistent like
| that then the only limiting factor is your ignorance? By
| that I mean its likely A LOT of the content you currently
| consume or products you use/buy are unethical in some way
| but you just don't know they are.
|
| I'd like to suggest that if you're not trying to fog-bust
| your ignorance by personally auditing all your supply
| chains actively then that is also ethically inconsistent.
| To permit your own ignorance suggests that its more about
| how people perceive you to be supporting unethical brands
| (once the lack of ethics becomes clear) as opposed to one
| actually caring about the ethics. I'd suggest your
| phrasing here backs that up.
|
| Idk, that's just too exhausting a mentality for me to
| handle tbh. I don't think its my job to force everyone in
| the world to conform to my precise standards, I think
| there's value in being able to trade with those I
| wouldn't consider friend.
|
| I mean lets spin it another way, you think the people
| Bald meets in his videos are all "good people"? A lot of
| them likely have issues in one way or another but we can
| celebrate that they're friendly and hospitable and that
| Bald is going out there and showing us that part of the
| world which we typically wouldn't see. Lets not forget
| that its likely that Bald is probably one of the more
| progressive individuals in his videos. I think that
| context matters a bit.
| girvo wrote:
| How does choosing not to watch someone's channel "force"
| people to conform to your beliefs? I don't get it.
| Quarrelsome wrote:
| It doesn't sorry, I rather mean that one is forcing a
| personal sense of morality on one's supply chain, that
| isn't necessarily a bad thing. But what is bad is that
| one only drops what is advertised to them as being bad
| which makes one think it was never about the sense of
| morality in the first place.
|
| The implication being that every single supply chain is
| bad (e.g. cobalt mining in DRC) but we conveniently just
| don't uncover everything because we'd have to drop too
| much. We're terrified (to an extent) to accept the
| negative impact our existence has in this world so pursue
| a dream of moral purity to escape that harrowing reality.
|
| Bald is a sex tourist so we'll never watch his channel
| but where is our cobalt mined from? As long as we don't
| know (our ignorance gives us plausible deniability) we
| can keep buying products that indirectly kill children
| while still showing everyone how good we are by not
| watching Bald's content. I think there's a hypocrisy here
| because I think relatively speaking Bald is acceptable
| but to purge him and just permit the rest (because the
| subjects are more boring or more distant) I think is
| bullshit.
| shigawire wrote:
| I pretty much have to use a phone.i don't have to watch a
| creepy sex tourist on YouTube - so I choose not to.
| Quarrelsome wrote:
| My issue with that stance is that effectively its saying
| that you'll be ethical when its _convenient_ but when its
| inconvenient you'll be unethical.
| string wrote:
| I readily accept that the reality is harrowing, but I
| don't agree that just sharing information about some
| potentially immoral thing is anything like the pursuit of
| some state of moral purity. Is it not better that
| individuals try to make supposed moral decisions where
| possible, even if they ultimately fall short?
|
| It seems that in order to function one must come to terms
| with the fact that existence is a moral balancing act and
| that we all do immoral things. I accept that I own many
| things that likely caused others suffering. I have had a
| fascination with the DRC for a number of years and am
| acutely aware of what goes on there, yet I bought a new
| phone last year and a laptop the year before that. I
| accept the hypocrisy. But I am still glad people share
| information about what happens there. Whilst most of us
| will ignore it, some person or people better than me may
| be able to use that information to enact some positive
| change. At least the conversation can occur.
|
| It is also a harsh reality that the less abstracted the
| situation, the easier it is for humans to face up to
| their own sense of morality. For whatever reason having
| intimate knowledge of a person is more impactful than
| hearing that an item you purchased was manufactured using
| some material that was mined by a nameless individual
| thousands of miles away. Right or wrong, we attach more
| weight to our judgements of others when a more direct
| connection can be made. It seems to me unrealistic to
| ignore that humans operate in this way.
|
| Ultimately the intention of my original comment was not
| to tell people what to do, nor to judge, nor to
| demonstrate virtue. I was just sharing information so
| others could also make an informed decision. I chose not
| to watch his channel based on my own personal moral
| compass and my own boundaries of inconvenience.
| Quarrelsome wrote:
| I'm with you there, I just wish people had this level of
| energy in regards to things like having Saudi Arabia as
| an ally. We take the zero effort to stop watching this
| Youtuber but when we're at the pump we're mostly not
| thinking about the suffering of women in Saudi Arabia.
| You're right that there's this metric of distance that
| appears to matter in these calculations.
| dragonwriter wrote:
| > Nothing he is accused of is illegal
|
| Sex in which "consent" is derived through a combination of
| cash payment and coercive threats is illegal on at least
| one and often two independent bases in most jurisdictions.
| nerdponx wrote:
| Pretty sure rape is illegal in most jurisdictions.
| Quarrelsome wrote:
| he isn't accused of rape, he's accused of sex tourism and
| general misogyny.
| cmrdporcupine wrote:
| No, he's accused of non-consensual sex.
| Quarrelsome wrote:
| well that's new. When I was reading the subreddit it was
| only about questionable posts he (allegedly) made in some
| pick up forum like a decade prior about offering women
| money for sex.
| apples_oranges wrote:
| off topic, but people keep mentioning youtubers here in a way
| that makes me wonder: Hm, should I know that channel? Am I
| completely out of the loop?
| zmix wrote:
| Yes, it would be more helpful, if they would not talk about
| these Youtuber's as they'd be our next door buddies but be a
| more explicit: The Guy's channel is named "Bald and
| Bankrupt", he is from the UK and travels a lot, which he
| documents on Youtube. The link to the video is:
| https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bR_eA_c_Yts
| TigeriusKirk wrote:
| I dunno, but I was hoping the comments on the story would
| offer some insight into the region. But half of them are
| gossip about some random youtuber who went there once.
| DoingIsLearning wrote:
| On thing that really surprised me watching his channel is just
| how empty all these periphery russian republics appear to be.
|
| I understand that there is economic struggle as in many other
| parts of the world. But I was really surprised by the general
| lack of actual people against the large swaths of land.
| burntoutfire wrote:
| Afaik it's either due to climate (too cold or not enough
| rainfall) or soil not very conducive for farming (which is
| the case for Siberia). Populations explode in arable areas,
| which in Russia means mostly the European side.
| ajb wrote:
| Russia's population is half that of the US, in twice the land
| area
| brudgers wrote:
| And a lot of the US is pretty sparsely populated.
| eigenket wrote:
| Also the US has five times the population of the UK, and 40
| times the area.
| arethuza wrote:
| And its not like the UK has a uniform population density
| internally - we have a greater area of peat bogs than
| built up areas:
|
| https://www.sheffield.ac.uk/news/nr/land-cover-atlas-
| uk-1.74...
| enkid wrote:
| And ~80% of that lives on the ~20% of land in Europe,
| making the rest of Russia very sparsely populated.
| yorwba wrote:
| Most of the planet is sparsely populated:
| http://www.luminocity3d.org/WorldPopDen/
| KingMob wrote:
| And the population of the solar system is heavily
| concentrated on just one planet.
| siraben wrote:
| The title should correct the spelling to "Buddhist" from
| "Buddist"
|
| EDIT: now it has been corrected, thank you!
| askesum wrote:
| What's the big deal:"a piece of Asia on the European continent",
| Europe and Asia are two parts of one continent, Eurasia
| jefurii wrote:
| I'm not that knowledgeable about that part of the world, but I
| think the surrounding countries are mostly either Eastern
| Orthodox Christian or Muslim.
| 01100011 wrote:
| I can't help but think that the whole distinction between
| Europe and Asia is based on European pride and racism. It
| definitely makes sense to divide them from a cultural
| perspective, but a geological one? Come on.
| tomcooks wrote:
| I believe that this separation has more to do with the main
| religion in those two areas, which are very important in the
| context of this article.
| m_mueller wrote:
| agreed, and even more sensible would be to just think in
| regions. Bosporus, Black Sea and the Mediterranean are natural
| boundaries for the European region, the Himalayas are the
| natural boundaries between East/Central and South Asia, the
| Saharan / Arabian / Afghan and Kazakh deserts and steppes are
| natural boundaries of the Middle East / North African region.
| Whenever a civilization has tried to cross over from one of
| those regions into the other, big world events ensued.
| tompccs wrote:
| The Ural mountains divide Europe from Asia. It can also be
| argued that the division of Europe from the Mid East (East Med)
| is between Christianity and Islam.
| helsinkiandrew wrote:
| Headline on the page is "The only Buddhist region in Europe"
| pilsetnieks wrote:
| I don't quite get why "country" in the title here is in quotes
| - even though not an independent state, it's a country the same
| way Wales or Scotland is a country.
| qwerty456127 wrote:
| I wish this could be shown higher. Sadly they have already
| replaced "country" with "region" despite it in fact is a
| country like Scotland is (or at least a state like California
| is).
|
| By the way Tatarstan, another country in the Russian
| Federation even is officially a "sovereign state integrated
| with Russia". There even are such things as citizenship and
| constitution of Tatarstan.
| marto1 wrote:
| That's correct. The respublika(republic) in question -
| Kalmykia, is part of the Russian *federation*.
| Grammrr wrote:
| Kalmykia is really hot and has camels. People are usually shocked
| to know about this region of Russia
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