[HN Gopher] App Store Arguments
       ___________________________________________________________________
        
       App Store Arguments
        
       Author : feross
       Score  : 60 points
       Date   : 2021-05-25 16:17 UTC (6 hours ago)
        
 (HTM) web link (stratechery.com)
 (TXT) w3m dump (stratechery.com)
        
       | ksec wrote:
       | I have the similar wish and opinion as Ben Thompson. ( But
       | somehow unpopular on HN )
       | 
       | >And, for what it's worth, continue controlling games: I do think
       | the App Store is a safer model, particularly for kids, and the
       | fact of the matter is that consoles have the same rules.
       | 
       | Move Games away from App Store to Game Store. Keep those 30% cut.
       | This way Apple have just protected ~90% of their App Store
       | revenue. Like Ben have said, this is similar to console.
       | 
       | >Let developers own their apps, including telling users about
       | their websites, and let creatives build relationships with their
       | fans instead of intermediating everything.
       | 
       | Not just "creatives", but business to built relationship with
       | their customers. Most people will still definitely sign up
       | through Apple ID simply due to protection and simplicity. Collect
       | flat 10% commission on digital goods with no exemption.
       | 
       | And App Store should approve apps as long as they are legal, fit
       | the quality of apps in both UI and security requirement. Not
       | because of its political speeches.
       | 
       | Finally Subscription Scams. Something _needs_ to be done. I have
       | a few solutions in my head but all of them have major drawbacks.
        
       | cloogshicer wrote:
       | I really wish Apple would just allow side loading. This would
       | alleviate most concerns and would enable everyone to run any
       | software they want on the device they bought.
        
         | Spooky23 wrote:
         | They essentially do. I have customers running dozens of apps
         | not from the App Store.
        
         | gjsman-1000 wrote:
         | The major problem with enabling sideloading from Apple's
         | perspective is that if they allowed sideloading, all of the big
         | tech companies that compete with Apple would happily,
         | immediately, force users to sideload their app.
         | 
         | Case study: Facebook. Hates Apple for the App Tracking
         | Transparency prompt. Hates that they get substantially less
         | revenue from iPhone users, according to leaked slides, due to
         | restrictions on what APIs they can use to fingerprint and track
         | users. Hates having a Privacy Label in the App Store. Solution?
         | Force users to sideload. They'll most likely do it because they
         | want Facebook, Facebook doesn't need to follow Apple's rules
         | anymore, problem solved.
         | 
         | In that case, it is less that Apple is afraid of giving users
         | the choice, as much as that large apps that people use will
         | force users to make the choice for them.
         | 
         | And for that reason, while some users would legitimately _want_
         | their iPhones to be able to install apps from anywhere, most
         | users hitting the  "Allow Sideloading" button would have
         | essentially been forced into doing so, without actually wanting
         | it.
        
           | [deleted]
        
           | redler wrote:
           | Furthermore, any big vendor (e.g. Facebook) with its own vast
           | audience and ecosystem would immediately launch its own app
           | store, with its own payment model and revenue cut, its own
           | exclusive titles, developer relationships, and (one assumes)
           | its own vastly more liberal policy with respect to privacy-
           | exploitative dark-pattern apps (notwithstanding that Apple's
           | app store certainly doesn't restrict all such things). The
           | sideloaded Facebook "app" would not simply be Facebook, but
           | the Facebook App Store.
        
             | mdoms wrote:
             | Sounds like a proper marketplace.
        
               | mcphage wrote:
               | Not really--with a marketplace, you can choose to buy a
               | product from Store X, or from Store Y. In this future,
               | you'll _still_ have no choice which store you 're buying
               | a product from. Apps like Facebook aren't fungible. And
               | if you want Facebook, you'll have to buy it from the
               | Facebook Store, whether you want to or not.
        
             | heavyset_go wrote:
             | > _Furthermore, any big vendor (e.g. Facebook) with its own
             | vast audience and ecosystem would immediately launch its
             | own app store_
             | 
             | And yet there is no precedent for this happening, because
             | this didn't happen on Android, Windows or macOS. The Play
             | Store shows the same scary privacy warnings the App Store
             | does for Facebook, and there still isn't a Facebook app
             | store that some people like to fearmonger about.
        
               | notriddle wrote:
               | Steam?
        
               | darkwizard42 wrote:
               | I think the best example is... Epic Store itself. It is
               | full of overpaid-for exclusives and has a huge feature
               | disparity with Steam
        
               | gjsman-1000 wrote:
               | The Play Store cannot be compared to the iOS App Store,
               | the Windows Store, or the macOS App Store because the iOS
               | App Store is substantially more stringent than the Play
               | Store in what apps are even allowed to request permission
               | for, their sandboxing restrictions, and their privacy
               | requirements. For example, Google gets more than 10X the
               | data from their Android app than they get from their iOS
               | app according to estimates. Also, Google Play only shows
               | a request for Permissions, while iOS shows the entire
               | list of what data is collected that is linked to you, and
               | the data that is collected that is not linked to you,
               | which means that the "scary privacy warnings" are
               | substantially scarier on iOS and don't bear the
               | comparison to the permissions-only Play Store.
        
               | darkwizard42 wrote:
               | What... the Epic store is the BIGGEST example of this. It
               | is a shoddy game store compared to Steam and GOG. Epic
               | paid for massive exclusives to make inroads into the PC
               | gaming space and their product is full of dark patterns.
        
             | gjsman-1000 wrote:
             | And where does that end? Google's got a bunch of apps like
             | Gmail and Google Drive, so the Google Play Store for iOS
             | would probably enter the ring too.
             | 
             | The point is more that if the App Store is to be the only
             | App Store on iOS, and Apple wants to maintain its rules on
             | privacy and other systems and not become Android,
             | sideloading logically cannot be permitted.
        
           | endemic wrote:
           | Not sure if that would be a panacea for Facebook in this
           | case. Aren't the privacy controls built into the OS?
        
             | gjsman-1000 wrote:
             | Not everything. The transparency prompt would still appear,
             | but Facebook wouldn't need to show users that Privacy Label
             | in the App Store. They could also access restricted iOS
             | Entitlements that the App Store would not permit. These
             | entitlements can do things such as "read data from other
             | apps" or "see what apps are installed in the system" or
             | other functionality that the App Store doesn't allow under
             | almost any circumstances.
             | 
             | If sideloading was enabled, Facebook could claim use of
             | those entitlements. iOS could potentially show a prompt
             | forcing users to OK their use, but Facebook would obviously
             | hope most people just tap the button without thinking.
        
             | clairity wrote:
             | further toward the ideal consumer outcome, the apple app
             | store would be compelled to compete with any other ios app
             | store (e.g., cydia) but apple would be allowed to be as
             | stringent about security and privacy of the device as
             | they'd like (promoting competition in the mobile phone
             | market, in addition to the apps/app store market). then,
             | facebook couldn't circumvent the protections that consumers
             | want in their mobile devices by hopping to another app
             | store.
        
           | cloogshicer wrote:
           | There is one thing I would like to expand upon in what you
           | said:
           | 
           | > Apple is afraid of giving users the choice, as much as that
           | large apps that people use will force users to make the
           | choice for them.
           | 
           | That assumes that users have no choice but keep using the
           | side loaded software. But that's not true. People could just
           | stop using Facebook entirely.
           | 
           | I guess the majority wouldn't, but the choice is there at
           | least.
           | 
           | In regards to privacy, I agree with Apple's stance. But what
           | about other areas? I don't want one single company dictating
           | what I can or can't use on my device.
        
             | handrous wrote:
             | Right now: I can (I don't, but I could) use Facebook on iOS
             | devices _without_ giving them access to a bunch of stuff
             | they 'd love to have access to, or letting them do things
             | I'd rather they not. Or I can choose not to use it.
             | 
             | Your vision: I can choose not to use Facebook on my iOS
             | devices, or else use it but let FB have access to and/or do
             | a bunch of stuff I don't want them to.
             | 
             | How's the latter something I'd prefer to the former? All it
             | gives me is a worse version of the same to choices from the
             | first one.
        
             | gjsman-1000 wrote:
             | "People could just stop using Facebook entirely."
             | 
             | If people are still using Facebook, today, knowing all that
             | has happened, the odds are most people will continue using
             | it though one can dream. I would honestly expect 90%+ of
             | Facebook users to sideload if Facebook required it.
             | 
             | "But what about other areas? I don't want one single
             | company dictating what I can or can't use on my device."
             | 
             | If you told this to an Apple Engineer, he'd look at you in
             | the eye and tell you that the iPhone isn't for you and to
             | buy an Android. You have that choice. The iPhone doesn't
             | fit your use case and Apple isn't interested in making it
             | fit your use case.
        
               | slantyyz wrote:
               | > If people are still using Facebook, today, knowing all
               | that has happened, the odds are most people will continue
               | using it though one can dream. I would honestly expect
               | 90%+ of Facebook users to sideload if Facebook required
               | it.
               | 
               | Why sideload when you can simply open it up in any mobile
               | browser?
        
               | smoldesu wrote:
               | > If you told this to an Apple Engineer, he'd look at you
               | in the eye and tell you that the iPhone isn't for you and
               | to buy an Android.
               | 
               | Easy solution for Apple then: stop selling things
               | labelled as "pro". I was already burned when I bought the
               | 16 inch Macbook Pro, which was a shockingly incapable and
               | undocumented device. Lenovo provides better documentation
               | on their entry level laptops than Apple provides for
               | their Pros, despite the order of magnitude difference in
               | price between both devices. So to the "Apple Engineer"
               | out there, I'd encourage you give people the choice
               | anyways.
               | 
               | In other words, North Korea doesn't justify their
               | atrocities by telling the rest of the world that their
               | culture "isn't for them". Apple is no less accountable
               | for their own product line, particularly when they're
               | some of the most profitable electronic hardware being
               | manufactured right now.
        
               | gjsman-1000 wrote:
               | Comparing North Korea, a government, with a public
               | company in a free society makes no sense and disrespects
               | the real atrocities the North Korean people are
               | experiencing, because you are comparing their suffering
               | to problems you have with your laptop, which is
               | appalling.
               | 
               | As for the term "pro" - nobody agrees what "pro" means.
               | An art designer might do professional work on a MacBook
               | Air, even though you wouldn't call that a "pro" machine.
               | Although you might not like the terminology, you should
               | have been able to research and know what you were
               | getting, and it still absolutely does not bear the
               | comparison to North Korea. First world problems compared
               | to third world tyranny.
        
               | bardworx wrote:
               | You just compared a company that sells a product to an
               | autocratic regime...
               | 
               | That's, a bit of a stretch.
        
           | josephcsible wrote:
           | > if they allowed sideloading, all of the big tech companies
           | that compete with Apple would happily, immediately, force
           | users to sideload their app.
           | 
           | Google allows sideloading on Android. Neither Facebook nor
           | any other similarly-popular app that I can think of forces
           | users to sideload there. Why would it be different on iOS?
        
             | lotsofpulp wrote:
             | Does Google currently provide the same abilities to block
             | tracking as Apple?
        
               | josephcsible wrote:
               | Why does that matter? Why would Apple's technical
               | features to block tracking suddenly stop working just
               | because an app was sideloaded?
        
               | handrous wrote:
               | Not all of the tracking-blocking is technical, and those
               | parts _can 't_ be technical, either.
        
               | lotsofpulp wrote:
               | Comparing Facebook's decision to not side load on Android
               | is not a comparable situation if the incentives to side
               | load are not the same.
        
               | JKCalhoun wrote:
               | If an app finds a way around Apple's user privacy wall,
               | in the App Store it can be pulled.
        
             | tomerico wrote:
             | Google play store is less restrictive than Apple's.
             | 
             | With that said, I find the argument weak - it's hard for me
             | to believe that sideloading will be a big share of the
             | market, as it hasn't caught on in areas where a google is
             | restrictive (e.g. adult content).
        
             | BugsJustFindMe wrote:
             | > _Why would it be different on iOS?_
             | 
             | Facebook hasn't taken out any full page ads in the New York
             | Times, Wall Street Journal, Washington Post, and probably
             | others about Google Android not allowing them to track you
             | without asking first. Clearly the circumstances are
             | different.
        
           | Despegar wrote:
           | That's exactly right. Apple is the users' union that protects
           | them from developers.
        
             | handrous wrote:
             | That's a great way to put it. Absent government bans on a
             | bunch of the bad behavior Apple outlaws in its store, I'd
             | really rather keep the choice of selecting Apple's "users'
             | union".
             | 
             | When spying on users and hoarding the resulting data is
             | illegal, and anti-fraud laws and truth-in-advertising laws
             | and laws mandating a standard interface for subscription
             | management exist or are _much_ better-enforced, then, sure,
             | let 's grab the torches and pitchforks and burn down the
             | App Store. Meanwhile, I'm paying Apple to be my private
             | regulation agency, backed by their sheer size (as a
             | company, and of their market) to prevent companies and
             | developers from simply refusing to do business with them
             | (and so, not forcing, but strongly encouraging them to
             | provide me with regulation-compliant products and
             | services).
        
           | asiachick wrote:
           | there is zero evidence this is true. none of those companies
           | are asking users to sideload on Android.
        
             | gjsman-1000 wrote:
             | Actually, there is much evidence. The Google Play Store is
             | _significantly less_ stringent on Android than iOS. For
             | example, Google is estimated to get _less than 1 /10th_ the
             | data from an iOS user as an Android user. The Play Store
             | also, currently, doesn't effectively enforce the use of
             | Google In-App-Purchase.
             | 
             | Because of that, there are less reasons to sideload away
             | from the Play Store (from a company's perspective) as there
             | are on iOS.
        
               | my123 wrote:
               | > The Play Store also, currently, doesn't effectively
               | enforce the use of Google In-App-Purchase.
               | 
               | https://www.cnbc.com/2020/09/28/google-to-
               | enforce-30percent-...
               | 
               | Starting from September 30, that's no longer the case.
        
           | gnopgnip wrote:
           | This isn't the case though. Anyone can install Facebook, or
           | Apple music, Netflix, any of the Microsoft or Amazon apps on
           | Android through the play store, without needing to sideload.
        
         | CubsFan1060 wrote:
         | But Epic is suing google too.
        
           | heavyset_go wrote:
           | That's because Google is also engaging in anti-competitive
           | behavior, and abuse their duopoly with Apple in the mobile
           | app distribution market.
           | 
           | User installable 3rd party mobile app stores cannot implement
           | automatic upgrades, background installation of apps, or batch
           | installs of apps like the Play Store can. These limitations
           | are designed by Google and are implemented in Android.
           | 
           | If the user tries to install an app on their own, they're
           | shown scary warnings and must adjust arcane settings, but if
           | they use Google's Play Store, no scary warnings are shown and
           | no settings need to be adjusted. They're told they're
           | "protected" by Play Protect, but aren't shown scary warnings
           | about the fact that the Play Store is the main distribution
           | method for malware on Android[1] when they go to install apps
           | with it.
           | 
           | The Play Store isn't alone in being a vector for malware, as
           | Apple's App Store is responsible for nearly half of a billion
           | malware installs of just XcodeGhost alone[2].
           | 
           | Like Apple, Google also mandates that apps distributed via
           | the Play Store must use Google's payment system[3], and give
           | Google a 15% to 30% cut of revenue:
           | 
           | > _Developers charging for apps and downloads from Google
           | Play must use Google Play 's billing system as the method of
           | payment._
           | 
           | [1] https://www.zdnet.com/article/play-store-identified-as-
           | main-...
           | 
           | [2] https://www.vice.com/en/article/n7bbmz/the-fortnite-
           | trial-is...
           | 
           | [3] https://support.google.com/googleplay/android-
           | developer/answ...
        
           | paxys wrote:
           | That one is because Google forced OnePlus and LG to back out
           | of their deal with Epic to preload the non Play Store version
           | of Fortnite on their devices by default -
           | https://www.theverge.com/2020/8/13/21368395/fortnite-epic-
           | ga...
        
         | mrtksn wrote:
         | I think the correct wording should be "I really wish Apple
         | would just make it easy side loading". I wish it too.
         | 
         | I know how unpopular this is but I will say it anyway, I can't
         | stand it and I am willing to sacrifice a few karma points to
         | convey the message.
         | 
         | I have distaste against the claim that Apple is not allowing
         | people do something on their device because this is technically
         | false. What Apple is not allowing is using its App distribution
         | platform outside of their store rules.
         | 
         | What Apple is not helping with is side loading. They don't have
         | a say on what you install on your phone but they have a say on
         | what you can distribute on their App Store. That's why it's the
         | developers that are suing, not the users.
         | 
         | However hard it is, you have all the rights to run whatever you
         | like on your device you purchased. The "Apple doesn't allow you
         | to install apps, you don't own the device" is a fallacy.
         | 
         | You can pay for the convenience(get a developer account, use
         | the Apple toolchain to install your apps) or hack your device
         | and run whatever you want on it and both are completely O.K.
         | 
         | At the time of purchase you don't sign anything preventing you
         | from doing it, consumer devices are not like those developer
         | devices that apple sells or send upon limited use or NDA
         | agreements. You are free to do whatever you like to your
         | device. Install a Chromium engine or blend it for YouTube
         | views, it's up to you. You are only limited with your local
         | laws, so dispose it's battery responsibly and that's it.
        
           | blintz wrote:
           | >However hard it is, you have all the rights to run whatever
           | you like on your device you purchased.
           | 
           | This is patently false. Many entitlements are locked behind
           | explicit, human approval from the Apple Developer Program;
           | examples include NFC with payment-related Application IDs and
           | Multicast Networking. You actually have to submit a request
           | that basically goes 'Please can I write software for this
           | device?' to use that hardware on the device (see
           | https://developer.apple.com/news/?id=0oi77447). You
           | emphatically are NOT able to run 'whatever you like'.
        
             | mrtksn wrote:
             | Apple can't lock physics.
             | 
             | However Apple can lock their software. The software is
             | licensed, you don't buy that but licence it like Photoshop.
             | Adobe also doesn't provide you with an easy way to do your
             | taxes on Photoshop but I'm yet hear to claim that Adobe is
             | preventing us from doing our taxes.(I couldn't think out of
             | my head a major software that's not on subscription model,
             | hmm)
             | 
             | Remove it and install something like Android on it, it is
             | hard but it has been done before.
             | 
             | I simply don't see how Apple is obligated to make it easy
             | or create tools for doing it. It's not promised upon
             | purchase or on any advertisement materials.
             | 
             | It's not different than complaining that Apple does not let
             | you use your phone as pocket heater through heating the Qi
             | coil.
        
         | agogdog wrote:
         | Apple is moving in the opposite direction in macOS, so I
         | wouldn't hold my breath on them choosing to do this whatsoever.
         | Sideloading goes against their entire iOS app philosophy.
         | 
         | This would also mean that Facebook would start sideloading and
         | attempt to circumvent any of the tracking/privacy enhancements
         | they've built in to iOS.
        
         | musicale wrote:
         | > I really wish Apple would just allow side loading
         | 
         | They used to, more or less, either using a development/test
         | certificate or an enterprise certificate. I believe Apple
         | cracked down after this was taken advantage of at scale by
         | Facebook and Google, as well as developers of other apps which
         | would typically be banned from the App store.
         | 
         | https://www.macrumors.com/2019/02/13/apple-enterprise-progra...
        
       | easton wrote:
       | The IP argument seems a bit hollow to me, since Apple would've
       | had to build probably upwards of 70% of the API surface for iOS
       | just for their internal apps (and when they launched the iPhone
       | SDK, they repeatedly pushed that developers were using the same
       | tools they used to build the core apps). And even if that is
       | true, the total cost of development of iOS is probably paid for
       | by the sale of the devices. The phone is nothing without a way
       | for someone to write software for it, whether it's Apple or a
       | third-party.
       | 
       | I wonder how long until Apple finds the people who made the "you
       | wouldn't steal a car" advertisement for the MPAA and gets them to
       | make "you wouldn't offer your own payment method for digital
       | goods".
        
         | Despegar wrote:
         | >The IP argument seems a bit hollow to me, since Apple would've
         | had to build probably upwards of 70% of the API surface for iOS
         | just for their internal apps (and when they launched the iPhone
         | SDK, they repeatedly pushed that developers were using the same
         | tools they used to build the core apps).
         | 
         | Does Amazon build separate warehouses for third-party goods?
         | All you're saying is that software is a good business, which
         | everyone already knows.
        
       | paxys wrote:
       | Regardless of the outcome, it is clear that the trial (and the
       | inevitable appeals) is going to leave its mark on the future of
       | app stores and digital distribution. What started as a dispute
       | over a random game turned into possibly the highest profile
       | lawsuit Apple has had to fight. They made Tim Cook take the stand
       | for the first time in his life. A lot of damaging PR was
       | unearthed. Apple and others have already announced concessions
       | for developers in the last few months (like cutting the rate to
       | 15% for the first $1M in revenue, followed closely by Google who
       | did the same). Antitrust investigations in the EU and other
       | jurisdictions are picking up steam. This saga is far from over.
        
         | Dracophoenix wrote:
         | It seems that this saga goes far beyond Apple. The bigger
         | question this will probably lead to is to what extent operating
         | systems/platforms/intellectual property fully belong to a
         | person or entity. How much of it should be "shared" if at all?
         | This will affect game consoles, ATMs, automobiles, and anything
         | with an electronic circuit. It's a property rights conundrum
         | fit for the 21st century.
        
           | enos_feedler wrote:
           | Ben argues that even the Apple question is murky enough to
           | make it impractical for regulation to step in. Expanding the
           | question only muddies the waters even more. For any actual
           | change to occur the underlying issue needs more focus and
           | clarity. I would say follow the email trails and focus more
           | specifically on Spotify, iBooks and conflict of interest
        
             | halostatue wrote:
             | It's impractical for the courts to regulate. Congress can
             | pass laws about this sort of behaviour if they wish.
        
               | Dracophoenix wrote:
               | I doubt it's within Congress's ability or capability. In
               | addition to property rights, this case also involves
               | freedom of speech and association. Congress can't make
               | any laws abridging Apple's freedoms at the expense of the
               | consumer's/developer's or vice versa. The courts don't
               | exist to regulate, they exist to interpret their
               | impartial findings on the basis of current law. What's
               | needed is an answer to these questions and there's no
               | better place to do it than in the courts.
        
           | paxys wrote:
           | The question of ownership will definitely have to be answered
           | soon enough, as people who have been purchasing digital
           | content over the last 20-30 years start to die. If my dad
           | spent hundreds or thousands of dollars purchasing Beatles
           | albums and memorabilia do I have the right to inherit it?
           | Apple says no, but I bet courts in most jurisdictions will
           | disagree.
        
             | Ashanmaril wrote:
             | We're also now reaching the point where the game consoles
             | that first enabled purchasing games digitally are having
             | their storefronts taken down, and suddenly everyone is
             | realizing that their hundreds or even thousands of dollars
             | in digital purchases can just be revoked on a whim.
        
       | asimpletune wrote:
       | > What I wish would happen -- and yes, I know this is naive and
       | stupid and probably fruitless -- is that Apple would just give
       | the slightest bit of ground.
       | 
       | Does anyone know if there's a strategic legal reason Apple hasn't
       | done this (beyond the small developer program)? Like, imagine
       | tomorrow they give ground. What op-eds would I read in the WSJ
       | about how they've exposed themselves x, y, z problems?
       | 
       | I mean this in the legal sense, not the obvious, usual slippery
       | slope.
       | 
       | One thing that really struck me in this article was Phil
       | Schiller's email about sort of capping the rule after Apple takes
       | in $1B in profit. I thought that was a very sweet and kind thing
       | to suggest. Maybe the number is wrong, maybe the motivation is
       | wrong, but I do like the spirit of this.
       | 
       | Basically, "fair" is hard to define. As stated in the article,
       | literally everyone has good points. In cases like this, when fair
       | in some kind of algebraic sense is impossible, maybe the easiest
       | and best way to approach it is to say "fair is when everyone is
       | more or less ok". Maybe that's the case now, maybe that's the
       | sentiment that Phil was putting fourth. I wonder what that
       | version of "fair" would like like today? Or maybe that's exactly
       | what the small developer program is. Like, you don't have to pay
       | that much unless you're making $1M or more. I know I would be
       | very happy as a developer to have an app like this, and anything
       | beyond that I'd probably be totally sucked into a money crazed
       | world anyway, and probably miserable.
        
       | jbverschoor wrote:
       | > In this world you don't need 1,000 true fans to make a living;
       | you need 1,786 -- 536 fans to pay Apple, 253 fans to pay Twitter,
       | and only then the 1,000 that make it possible to create something
       | new. It is inevitable that some number of businesses never get
       | started, because of this deadweight loss.
       | 
       | So when is Epic going to sue the federal and state tax
       | organizations? They're taking in some case up to 50% (VAT +
       | corporate tax)
        
         | smoldesu wrote:
         | Governments can't feasibly sustain themselves without taxation.
         | Apple already drives industry-leading profit margins on their
         | hardware side, so nobody's really fooled when the largest
         | company in the world complains about how hard it is to turn a
         | buck.
        
       | nxc18 wrote:
       | I love my iPhone and solidly side with Apple in this case, and
       | have ditched Spotify due to their spiteful position. Fuck Epic.
       | 
       | Still, I totally agree with this:
       | 
       | > What I wish would happen -- and yes, I know this is naive and
       | stupid and probably fruitless -- is that Apple would just give
       | the slightest bit of ground.
       | 
       | They could have bought a lot of good will if they just changed
       | their fee model slightly for subscription and purchasing apps. It
       | is totally reasonable to require that app subscriptions are done
       | in store, but for services like Spotify, Kindle, etc, there
       | should be options to buy in app. Apple could even require that
       | they process transactions, but just not take a cut.
       | 
       | App store-based subcriptions add a lot of value, enough to
       | justify a small premium. As a consumer, I like having one place
       | to go to cancel my subscriptions. I don't have to worry about
       | being tricked into an auto-renewal. I don't see a problem getting
       | rid of anti-steering if the fee is reduced; my time is valuable
       | enough that I'm not going to jump through hoops to save 10%, and
       | I suspect that is true for much of Apple's customers (I'm told
       | day after day that iPhones are just for rich, elitist people,
       | despite TCO often being lower than Android).
        
         | simion314 wrote:
         | I think Apple could done something like " any application that
         | has payments should offer an Apple Pay option" but not force
         | prices for outside the store or other payment methods or only
         | Apple pay. With this scheme Apple Pay fans can use it for
         | everything.
        
       | makecheck wrote:
       | Too much credit is given to the concept of "just using another
       | phone", whether it is for a user or a developer.
       | 
       | As a user, no way I would just toss aside years of app purchases
       | and past experiences on one platform to suddenly decide to
       | switch. Sure, some people do but _generally_ they don't.
       | Switching cost applies to lots of things, not just phones, yet
       | the inability of app stores to transfer proof of purchase makes
       | this cost higher than it would normally be.
       | 
       | As a developer, like it or not you _will_ depend on some (usually
       | large) percentage of APIs available only on your first chosen
       | platform. Probably even the programming language! And for the
       | most unfortunate of businesses, a ton of this effort will be
       | spent up front before even knowing if some new idea for an app
       | will be denied entry to the App Store due to some unwritten rule
       | (or worse, denied a few years in as the rules shift). If you
       | reach the conclusion that you picked the wrong first platform,
       | most developers are not "free" to "just" pick another phone
       | /platform and make it all work out before going broke.
        
         | withinboredom wrote:
         | I had some success reaching out to android devs for a voucher
         | on iOS when I switched. My success was mostly limited to
         | finding contact information. When I did, a few answered with a
         | voucher. Most didn't reply.
        
       | anupamchugh wrote:
       | This is well put. My primarily concern with Apple is their lack
       | of ability to weed out scam apps from the App Store. Thousands of
       | dollars are burned every year only because the regular non-tech
       | savvy isn't given the dumb transparent information about
       | purchases.
        
         | zepto wrote:
         | > My primarily concern with Apple is their lack of ability to
         | weed out scam apps from the App Store.
         | 
         | Apple weeds out a huge number of scams from the app stores.
         | Their ability to do so is enormous.
         | 
         | Removing Apple from the equation would massively increase the
         | number of scams.
        
         | darkwizard42 wrote:
         | I mean they must knock out a TON of bad apps and actors. I
         | think it is pretty known that the Google Play store is much
         | further fraught with scammy apps than Apple.
         | 
         | A way to maybe rationalize it (not saying it is acceptable, but
         | just the reasoning) is that we don't scrap our antivirus
         | software because it failed to block EVERY SINGLE virus... we
         | keep it because we know it blocks a vast majority of the
         | problems that might affect the computer.
         | 
         | For the point around purchases, Apple owning the App Store
         | wholesale has led to helpful regulation of how in-app purchases
         | work, how subscriptions can be used, how refunding policy on
         | app purchases works. All this would likely get worse if every
         | company pushed their app as an exclusive through their own
         | third-party app store...
        
           | josephcsible wrote:
           | First of all, a lot of people have scrapped their antivirus.
           | And second, the problems caused by antivirus false positives
           | are way less bad than the problems caused by all the non-
           | malicious apps Apple has rejected.
        
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