[HN Gopher] iFixit tells the sad story of how Samsung "ruined" i...
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iFixit tells the sad story of how Samsung "ruined" its upcycling
program
Author : a-human
Score : 98 points
Date : 2021-05-24 16:35 UTC (6 hours ago)
(HTM) web link (arstechnica.com)
(TXT) w3m dump (arstechnica.com)
| dylan604 wrote:
| This seems like one of those ideas that got floated, but then
| they realized it could cut into sales. If an open source
| ecosystem came along that ran on no longer supported hardware,
| there could be a reason for people to not upgrade that device.
| babypuncher wrote:
| I find it amusing that Samsung couldn't even bring themselves
| to commit to the lazy alternative to providing OS updates for a
| reasonable amount of time. Simply unlocking the bootloader and
| letting the community maintain your product after the paltry 18
| month support window seems like the absolute bare minimum.
|
| I'm sure Apple made this same calculation, and still decided
| that directly supporting devices for 5+ years was worth the
| investment. It might lead to users upgrading less frequently,
| but it builds brand loyalty. A user that doesn't feel screwed
| over is more likely to be a repeat customer.
| dublinben wrote:
| How many users own an iPhone from launch for 5 years? Based
| on the robust resale market, it seems that users who want to
| always have the latest model fund that habit by reselling
| their used device into the secondhand market. If anything,
| this long support enables higher turnover for the latest
| models.
| babypuncher wrote:
| Whether you keep your phone for 5 years, or sell it after
| 2-3 years to someone who will use it for another 2-3, the
| end result is the same: less e-waste.
|
| A lot of other smartphones aren't even worth selling after
| 2-3 years of use.
| hungryforcodes wrote:
| I see an incredible number of iPhone 6's and 7's here in
| Asia. There is a huge thriving repair economy that keeps
| them going on the cheap. So much so, that I still use my
| iPhone 6 as my secondary daily driver and it works great.
| I've had almost every thing replaced in it (battery,
| screen, camera, etc), all for like $100 in total.
|
| Apple's calculation probably has more to do with its
| reputation. It understands that older phones are still in
| service and that doing the minimum to keep these at least
| functional is great for their brand. Hey, an iPhone is an
| iPhone...
| AshamedCaptain wrote:
| Samsung is outright evil regarding software updates and 100%
| using them for obsolescence. One example is when they
| announced Linux for DeX. They were beta testing it on their
| Galaxy Note 8s / 9s, but they made it abundantly clear that
| once the public beta testing was over, they would discontinue
| and kill the program in Galaxy Note 8/9 and then release it
| only alongside the new Galaxy Note 10.
|
| Eventually they killed the program altogether, likely due to
| poor demand. But to use the owners of the previous devices as
| betatesters, only to tell them they will have to uselessly
| buy the new device if they actually want to run the final
| version is just evil.
| duskwuff wrote:
| It doesn't hurt that Apple has some financial incentives for
| keeping older devices working, as it means those devices are
| still able to purchase apps from the App Store, sign up for
| new Apple subscription services, and use new Apple
| accessories. Since Samsung is only a hardware manufacturer,
| they don't see the benefits of up-to-date devices to the same
| degree that Apple does.
|
| That isn't to say that keeping old devices running is pure
| selfish self-interest on Apple's part, though. This isn't a
| zero-sum game; everyone wins when hardware gets a long
| support life cycle.
| GuB-42 wrote:
| Interesting considering that until 2015 (Galaxy S6), Samsung
| phones had removable batteries, and even now, the Galaxy XCover
| Pro has one.
|
| Also, most Samsung phones, at least the flagships are easy to
| bootloader unlock / root and have an active community.
|
| It looks like Samsung position has always been "do whatever you
| want with your phone, just don't expect us to help you with
| that", which is actually much better than many manufacturers who
| actively try to stop you.
|
| Note: I don't count carrier-subsidized phones. These are not
| really your phone anyway, they are leased by your carrier.
| AdmiralAsshat wrote:
| It's pretty damn disappointing that ten years later, and my old
| Samsung Galaxy S2 is _still_ the only Samsung device I have that
| can be easily rooted /re-flashed.
| slownews45 wrote:
| Folks give endless crap around apple's lack of repairability.
| Bottom line however is that Apple's phones get a ton of use and
| re-use for a number of reasons.
|
| 1) Really hard now to do the fake replacement battery scams,
| Apple alerts buyer if a new battery was put in outside of apples
| approved ecosystem.
|
| 2) Fantastic duration on updates. Despite the claims of the more
| repairable androids, far too many NEVER update, AND ship with
| crap / older versions from the start. Apple by contrast has iOS
| 14 running on: iPhone 12 iPhone 12 mini iPhone 12 Pro iPhone 12
| Pro Max iPhone 11 iPhone 11 Pro iPhone 11 Pro Max iPhone XS
| iPhone XS Max iPhone XR iPhone X iPhone 8 iPhone 8 Plus iPhone 7
| iPhone 7 Plus iPhone 6s iPhone 6s Plus iPhone SE (1st generation)
| iPhone SE (2nd generation) iPod touch (7th generation)
|
| iOS 13 and even iOS 12 are STILL getting updates that cover
| iPhone 5S, iPhone 6 and 6 Plus, iPad Mini 2, iPad Mini 3 and
| original iPad Air.
|
| https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT212341 came out just this month
| for iOS 12.
|
| 3) Phone is pretty durable, everything is glued down and
| surprisingly waterproof.
|
| 4) Hard to root the device. When you buy a used phone / do a
| reset, you are less likely to be getting backdoored.
|
| 5) Resulting in fantastic resale and down market value which
| means the phones go and go and go.
| webmobdev wrote:
| Here's a different perspective: Really hard
| now to do the fake replacement battery scams
|
| Really hard to replace battery. Period. It's a scammy tactic to
| make battery repairs very costly. Fantastic
| duration on updates
|
| An open system like the Sony Open Devices phone, that allows
| you to unlock the bootloader, is better for consumers as it
| allows users to even install a different mobile operating
| system on their phone! (
| https://developer.sony.com/develop/open-devices/ and
| https://jolla.com/sailfishx/ ). iOS 13 and
| even iOS 12 are STILL getting updates
|
| They are only getting security updates that plug holes that
| allow an iDevice to be Jailbroken. They sadly don't get updates
| for the default apps like Safari or Photos.
| Phone is pretty durable, everything is glued down and
| surprisingly waterproof.
|
| You don't need to glue things to make it durable or waterproof.
| It just makes repairs more difficult and that's the real
| endgame. Resulting in fantastic resale and
| down market value
|
| This is only partly true, especially for Intel only mac systems
| because you can install and run other operating systems in it.
| iDevices for which OS updates have been stopped also greatly
| devalue and don't have the same resale value.
| gruez wrote:
| > They are only getting security updates that plug holes that
| allow an iDevice to be Jailbroken. They sadly don't get
| updates for the default apps like Safari or Photos.
|
| This seems to be contradicted by
| https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT212341, which states it's
| getting security updates even for webkit.
| [deleted]
| irskep wrote:
| Looks like the linked article is a rewrite of the original iFixit
| post: https://www.ifixit.com/News/50450/samsung-galaxy-
| upcycling-u...
| AshamedCaptain wrote:
| I am the first to avoid buying any device with a locked
| bootloader, but.... how exactly is an unlocked bootloader after 4
| years of use going to help to reduce e-waste?
|
| It's not magically going to convert the phone into a Raspberry Pi
| anymore than Debian is going to suddenly port itself to a 4-year-
| old platform. And even that would reduce e-waste only by a
| rounding error.
|
| Now, guaranteeing Android updates 4 YEARS, or more, that would be
| something...
| webmobdev wrote:
| how exactly is an unlocked bootloader after 4 years of use
| going to help to reduce e-waste?
|
| It allows you install a different operating systems. When newer
| versions of Windows ran slower on old systems, many people
| switched to Linux to use the same hardware for some more years.
| And we do have different mobile OS too today. The free
| LineageOS also has breathed new life to many an old device.
| Jolla, a Finnish company, even sells licenses for their
| Sailfish OS ( and https://jolla.com/sailfishx/ ) for Sony Open
| Devices ( https://developer.sony.com/develop/open-devices/ ).
| They supported their first phone with 7 years of free OS
| updates. ( https://blog.jolla.com/jolla7/ ).
| AshamedCaptain wrote:
| And absolutely none of these platforms will start working on
| 4-year old Samsung hardware because of an unlocked
| bootloader. In fact, the bootloaders can be unlocked right
| now on most Exynos devices, so why can't I run Jolla on a
| Samsung device?
| def_true_false wrote:
| Yeah, I would rather trust some random dude from xda than the
| phone vendor to keep their promise of keeping it up to date. In
| fact you can easily get a 4 year old device and put Android 11
| on it, you just have to avoid the vendors who intentionally
| make it hard.
| ketralnis wrote:
| > Samsung, like every manufacturer, should set their old phones
| free. Open up their bootloaders. Let people use their [...]
|
| They aren't _Samsung 's_ phones. They're yours and mine and
| whoever traded money to own a device and now OWNS THAT DEVICE. We
| shouldn't be okay with this new world where we're begging
| companies to LET us use our OWN devices for whatever the hell we
| want.
| cl0ckt0wer wrote:
| I wish we owned the software when we bought the hardware.
| matheusmoreira wrote:
| I wish it wasn't even possible to own software in the first
| place.
| belltaco wrote:
| Hah, after the first sentence I was thinking you were going to
| say they're the carriers' phones. Which is kind of true in the
| sense that many carriers, especially in the US, enforce a lot
| of things in phones including locked bootloaders, disabling the
| second SIM or eSIM, removing FM radio support etc.
|
| Verizon is notorious to be the worst in this regard. OnePlus
| disabled the eSIM in their latest phone which let to outrage
| and returns among some of the enthusiast community.
| spijdar wrote:
| The situation is complicated. I want all our software to be
| free and hardware easily modifiable, but I'm also aware of
| why radios are regulated the way they are. This is sort of a
| separate issue from the locked bootloaders on the phone
| itself, but the radio/modem on phones is _very_ controlled
| and locked down, and ... probably for the better?
|
| Bad actors can already get their hands on the technology to
| spoof/intercept cellular traffic so that cat is kind of out
| of the bag, but if the modems were totally open and could
| effectively be turned into SDRs, I worry a bit about the
| ramifications.
|
| I've talked to script kiddie teens who get their giggles out
| of downloading some dodgy windows or android app to mass
| deauth wifi clients from APs. If it truly becomes easy to
| gain full access of your average phone's modem, I wonder what
| sorts of similar apps would appear. Maybe it'd be no worse
| than wifi, but given the much greater scope and potential
| damage from a DoS'd/jammed cell tower, it's a heavy topic
| IMO...
| SkittyDog wrote:
| > They aren't Samsung's phones. They're yours and mine...
|
| In English, the grammatical "possessive" is not only used to
| mean legal ownership... It can refer to nearly any kind of
| proprietary relationships:
|
| * "Their husbands all laughed at the joke." * "Their jobs
| disappeared when the factory closed." * "Their comments are
| disagreeable and combatative."
|
| The previous poster's use of the possessive was entirely
| appropriate. I believe your correction was unnecessarily
| combative and shrill.
| ketralnis wrote:
| > In English [...]
|
| I'm a native speaker, I'm not responding to the grammar. I'm
| responding to the very notion that Samsung "allow" users to
| do what they want with their own devices. Quotes like all of
| these...
|
| > by allowing users to unlock the bootloaders of devices
| Samsung decided to no longer support
|
| > Samsung was going to let users replace the shipping Android
| OS with whatever they wanted
|
| > Samsung [...] should set their old phones free
|
| > Let people use their cameras, sensors, antennas, and
| screens for all kinds of purposes, using whatever software
| people can dream up
|
| ...start out with the premise that Samsung should have any
| say at all what people do the things that they own.
|
| That's what the article is about. iFixit wanted to
| participate in a partnership with Samsung where Samsung would
| deign to permit users to repurpose their own devices that are
| no longer profitable to Samsung, and then Samsung changed
| their minds and you're still not actually allowed to do that
| and iFixit is annoyed that Samsung tricked iFixit into doing
| a bunch of marketing for Samsung on the back of a project
| that doesn't really exist.
|
| That's the world that we're in right now, you really do have
| to beg Samsung to _allow_ you to repurpose your own hardware.
| But it 's _not okay_ , that's not the world we should live
| in.
| tootie wrote:
| Side note, I upcycled an old Android phone by making it a webcam.
| I'm using an app called Iriun, but there's a bunch of other
| competitors. Just mounted to the back of my monitor with velcro
| and it gets very good picture quality.
| quadrangle wrote:
| Conflict-of-interest.
|
| If your business model is based on artificial obsolesence and
| 100% of the cost of e-waste and disposal is externalized, then
| anything that truly encourages effective continued use of older
| models is directly opposed to the business model.
|
| And while it's something to have marketable trust-building by
| taking some responsibility for the waste and longer life-span,
| that also _invites_ people to start thinking about how bad the
| fundamental business model is. If you get people to actually care
| about this stuff, that 's building demand for a different
| business model, something closer to Fairphone.
|
| At this point, the only really scalable way to solve
| repairability and e-waste is probably to mandate it legally.
| Force the costs to be internalized. Require a deposit on all
| electronics, like some states do with bottles. Adjust the numbers
| at each end to actually discourage waste and to actually cover
| real-world recycling costs.
|
| And figure out how to require companies to unlock unsupported
| devices.
|
| It doesn't work to have one company do these things while others
| don't. That puts the one company at a competitive disadvantage.
| gumby wrote:
| > If your business model is based on artificial obsolesence and
| 100% of the cost of e-waste and disposal is externalized, then
| anything that truly encourages effective continued use of older
| models is directly opposed to the business model.
|
| You'd think more companies would skip that model: bmw and Apple
| benefit from the high sale value of their devices, in part due
| to continued support. It doesn't hurt that California and
| Germany have pushed part of the lifecycle cost onto the
| manufacturers, with some success.
| WorldMaker wrote:
| Samsung gives the impression that they'd love their business
| model to look like Apple or BMW and be a "lifestyle brand"
| (if not quite a "luxury brand"). My immediate thoughts from
| the article was wondering how much Samsung regrets being tied
| to Android at this point. The timing of the project suggests
| to me that maybe there may have been some hope at Samsung
| that they could use "upcycling" as a trojan platform for
| migrating older hardware to a larger Tizen install base as
| devices aged out of Android support just before realizing
| that being chained to Android's continual software
| obsolescence also chained them to wild shifting winds of
| Android's hardware strategy (and getting Tizen drivers from
| some of the "mandatory" Android partners).
|
| Android as a platform in general, with its wild fragmentation
| and ever moving software goal posts, seems almost cruelly
| designed almost entirely for the artificial obsolesence path
| and that path alone.
| seventytwo wrote:
| The solution is for elected government to impose rules for this
| kind of thing. This kind of "tragedy of the commons" is one of
| the downsides of a market system. There are all kinds of other
| guard rails we put in place to limit the downsides of
| unfettered capitalism.
|
| With air pollution, the market has never solved that problem.
| Regulation addressed it. If there had been a market solution
| invented, why is air pollution still rampant in unregulated
| regions?
|
| The market won't solve any other niches of the waste problems
| either (recycling, other pollution, carbon emissions, etc.)
| until it's too late. The equilibrium point where the incentives
| to address waste are as strong as the incentives to produce
| waste exists at a point which would be untenable for human
| living. Proof? We have millions of people all over the world
| who basically live in garbage dumps, and there's not some
| magical incentive for them to clean things up. They live off
| it. If there's not an incentive that's developed for them, then
| the point at which the incentive equilibrium exists is beyond
| even that.
| [deleted]
| tootie wrote:
| I don't think that's really the issue here. The upcycling
| program was based around repurposing old phones. Not keeping
| them in use as phones. In fact, this likely helps them sell
| more phones because fewer end up in the secondary market and
| the Samsung ecosystem becomes more valuable because the old
| phones can make up whatever IoT network they had dreamed up.
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