[HN Gopher] Squeezebox Keyboard
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Squeezebox Keyboard
Author : mooreds
Score : 171 points
Date : 2021-05-19 11:53 UTC (11 hours ago)
(HTM) web link (peterlyons.com)
(TXT) w3m dump (peterlyons.com)
| simonbarker87 wrote:
| I've been using the ZSA Moonlander since mid Feb and love the
| split aspect, what I don't love is how high off the desk it sits,
| having the wrist rests above the keys like this seems like a
| great idea. I've often felt like I want an infinitely thin desk
| so I can type basically on my lap without totally destroying any
| vertical space above my knees.
|
| For anyone interested in the Moonlander, I do recommend it but be
| prepared for your typing speed to tank for a good few weeks.
| Their customer support is also amazing, I had a minor issue with
| my board and then sent me a new left half no questions asked.
| cuddlybacon wrote:
| > what I don't love is how high off the desk it sits
|
| And one of the features of the Moonlander over the Ergodox EZ
| is it's thinner. Mechanical keyboards seem to be bulky by
| default.
| nullwarp wrote:
| Definitely recommend the moonlander, got mine last week and my
| productivity definitely tanked but it's getting back up there.
|
| FWIW my RSI in my wrist has improved already a great deal since
| switching and it's only been a week.
| gww wrote:
| I bought one for wrist and elbow RSI. I really am enjoying it
| so far as well. The biggest challenge I am having is finding
| a layout I like and sticking with it.
| therein wrote:
| I also have a Moonlander. The hardware is absolutely
| spectacular, it looks incredible. However never really got used
| to it as I have it on my non-primary rig.
| hanklazard wrote:
| Yeah this is my problem with a non-staggered layout. I have
| to use a standard laptop for work (and carry it frequently to
| different rooms), so getting the muscle memory to shift back
| and forth is just too much.
|
| I wish they made a version of the moonlander with a more
| standard layout, I'd buy a few.
| stevehawk wrote:
| the one thing that keeps me from using my moonlander is that
| raising it up / tilting it so i can reduce RSI has resulted in
| a keyboard that just runs across the desk with every key
| stroke. I'm still trying to figure out how to resolve this. I
| think the problem is that my palm rest is so slick it forces me
| to apply pressure to the keyboard in order to keep my hands
| from sliding off of it. I may try a little adhesive sand paper
| on the palm rest as a first effort.
| wellthisisgreat wrote:
| You can try keyboard trays (attached to the desk with clamps),
| about $50 online and hold up well for a couple years, almost
| completely eliminates this problem
| dejj wrote:
| What once was the King's Assembly:
| https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/70308014/kings-assembly...
| focusaurus wrote:
| LOL I funded that one and they never shipped anything.
| cosmotic wrote:
| Keys activated by pushing fingers out seems like a trap; there's
| very little strength in that direction.
| donio wrote:
| The idea with these keyboards is that very small movements and
| amounts of force is needed. The angle of that up key does look
| a little awkward though. On the Datahand those keys are more or
| less parallel with the finger itself so they only require a
| tiny flick.
|
| When I first started typing on the Datahand the most difficult
| part was getting used to the small movements, I kept hitting
| the keys by accident. But once you get used to it it's not a
| problem at all.
| focusaurus wrote:
| v2105 is nearly done and the top row angle is larger and it's
| definitely more comfortable. The version in the post kind of
| ended up that way due to testing from positions other than
| really at my desk with everything really set up.
| kgwxd wrote:
| It's making my wrist hurt just thinking about it.
| kempbellt wrote:
| Strength training for your fingers.
|
| Might make you good at rock climbing if you're an avid typist.
| [deleted]
| jfengel wrote:
| Rock climbing finger strength is almost entirely about
| pulling. Not pulling yourself up, but resisting falling, so
| that your legs can lift you up. That can involve a lot of
| squeezing force, especially with the fingertips.
|
| It's not impossible to find a move where you push out.
| Perhaps you might do it when wedging your hand into a crack.
| But even then it's pretty rare; you usually count on your arm
| to wedge your closed fist.
|
| As the GP said, pushing with your fingertips just isn't very
| strong. So rock climbers rarely do it.
| melling wrote:
| Looks tight so maybe it actually requires little movement.
|
| Also, the key switches might require little force; there are no
| key caps
| [deleted]
| skybrian wrote:
| Darn, I was hoping it would be an actual squeezebox (accordion).
|
| I've been fooling around with making a MIDI input device sort of
| like an acccordion [1], but I'm still figuring out what I might
| do for expression instead of a bellows.
|
| [1] https://github.com/skybrian/accordionsynth
| loloquwowndueo wrote:
| If you're really looking to minimize hand movement and type fast
| while doing it, perhaps a better option would be steno keyboards
| (http://www.openstenoproject.org/) where entire words are
| produced by specific chords. It's definitely learning a new way
| of typing, but the keyboard showcased in the article here also
| looks alien enough (apparently each finger has a set of letters
| assigned to it and one types by moving each finger in a
| particular direction to produce a single letter) that the
| learning curve is probably substantial as well.
| xupybd wrote:
| I'm not sure how well it would work for code. You'd have to set
| it up for each language right?
| amelius wrote:
| Variable names will still be in English, I suppose.
| loloquwowndueo wrote:
| Google for "Steno for coding". It does work :)
| leoc wrote:
| The Dutch Velotype https://www.velotype.com/en/homepage-eng/ /
| Veyboard http://www.veyboard.nl/en_main.html design seems to be
| a slightly more general-purpose version of the same chording
| idea. Classical steno is based on quickly producing a cryptic
| stream of personal abbreviations then manually patching it up
| into a proper text later; though ofc computers can now assist
| with the second part, and it seems that now some people _are_
| using steno boards (or steno layouts /software on normal KBs)
| as general PC input devices.
|
| There's also the question of how useful steno-like high WPM is.
| For transcription (using a keyboard) it's obviously somewhere
| between very useful and essential, depending on the task; but
| it also requires a lot of skill, so most people will probably
| never achieve it even given everything else they'd need. (And
| there's the alternative of using stenomask
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stenomask -style dictation and/or
| computerised text-to-speech.) For other things like computer
| programming or natural-language composition extra speed may not
| be worth a lot of extra bother. However there are some other
| things chording could be useful for instead (or as well). It's
| a fairly obvious way to easily access extra characters if you
| have an NKRO board: I'm a bit surpried I haven't heard of
| anyone using chords for mathematical symbols etc. yet. And it's
| a way to achieve one-handed typing. One-handed chorded typing
| isn't as fast as two-handed conventional typing, but it offers
| the opportunity to type with one hand while controlling a mouse
| with the other, eliminating the delay in switching between
| mousing and typing. (Though a thumbable touchpad now also
| offers low switching time. The Matias Half Keyboard/508keyboard
| https://matias.ca/halfkeyboard/ approach offers one-handed
| typing with a minimal amount of chording.)
| tpmx wrote:
| In like '00 I got painful carpal tunnel syndrome symptoms after
| working intensely as a full-time developer for 3-4 years.
|
| The solution was: Microsoft Natural Keyboard Pro (Photo:
| http://xahlee.info/kbd/Microsoft_natural_keyboard.html) plus a
| fantastic heavy-duty "telescopic" keyboard/mouse tray that Ikea
| designed and sold for a few years.. You screwed it into the
| bottom of the desktop. The key was allowing the keyboard to be
| angled slightly away from the body, while also allowing it to be
| as close to the legs/knees as possible - thereby minimizing the
| wrist angle.
|
| Is anyone aware of any modern replacements for the above?
| DIY/mechanical? (Mostly the keyboard itself - would love a
| mechanical keyboard witht the same 3d layout.)
| hellweaver666 wrote:
| Theres a whole world of split mechanical keyboards out there,
| like the Dactyl, Manuform, Kyria etc. I think splitkb.com has a
| discord where the very specific subset of mechanical keyboards
| that love ergo boards hang out.
| tpmx wrote:
| I've seen a very large number of split DIY keyboards, but not
| really any with a dome-like (shaped like the hand) 3d layout
| like the MS Natural Keyboard from the 90s/00s - before they
| too went quite flat.
|
| (Thanks for the discord hint.)
| wellthisisgreat wrote:
| I was getting dangerously close to a carpal tunnel territory
| and what steered me off the collision course were split
| keyboard (Sinc/ quefrency) and a sliding keyboard tray,
| altogether they allowed me to keep my wrists at a 45-ish degree
| angle, tilted inwards (like they should be) and my elbows and
| shoulders relaxed and never at a sharp angle. Never had even a
| numbness ever since
| brundolf wrote:
| The reason I'll never use an ergonomic/split keyboard is that I
| never formally learned to type. I can type at a reasonable speed,
| but I have no "home row" or anything; much less do I keep one
| hand confined to each side of the keyboard.
|
| I learned by hunting-and-pecking until I could do it with
| multiple fingers and mostly without looking. This means I can
| type at 50% speed with one hand, but it also means I would feel
| extremely uncomfortable if one hand couldn't easily reach across
| the median, because there's no one particular way that I reach
| for any given key
|
| I'm curious how common this is?
| pickledish wrote:
| I was like this too, actually! Decided to learn to touch type
| (home row, pinky fingers and all that) last month, and I'm
| almost back up to my normal speed now. I'd say it's worth it,
| significantly more comfortable with the potential to be much
| faster than I was, but it does kinda highlight how the usual
| QWERTY layout is, uh, really poorly optimized for touch typing
| leadbase0 wrote:
| I wonder if this benefits people with Arthritis with the little
| movements.
| AstaManasta wrote:
| I feel like this would be worse tbh. Not enough finger movement
| and pushing the fingers outwards doesn't seem like a great idea
| long term.
|
| I just don't get the fascination for these minimal type
| keyboards, have tried a few and they frustrate the heck out of
| me.
| sunir wrote:
| They are novel. We have had the same basic design for a
| century. People like seeing new concepts.
| huhtenberg wrote:
| There is a zero change I will ever want something like this,
| leave alone need it, but if there's an HN submission worthy of an
| instant upvote, that's the one :)
| mooreds wrote:
| haha, that's what I thought when I saw it pop up in my twitter
| feed :)
| smeej wrote:
| I can't wrap my head around how anyone functions in a
| professional, uses-a-computer-all-day capacity if they can only
| type 60wpm. Dropping down to 20wpm, even temporarily? How do you
| get anything done that way?
| __mharrison__ wrote:
| I know some very prominent programmers that hunt and peck...
| jascii wrote:
| Solve the same problem with less code?
| sjm wrote:
| Probably the same way you are generally productive but
| currently spending time on HN? Very unlikely anyone's
| productivity is "capped" by their typing speed. 99% of my
| productive time is thinking about solutions, not the physical
| act of typing them out.
| slongfield wrote:
| I type at a pretty decent pace (~80 wpm), but I spend a lot
| more time thinking about what I'm going to type and reviewing
| what I just typed than pressing buttons on the keyboard.
|
| I'd imagine this is the case for most people not doing
| stenography or data entry.
| focusaurus wrote:
| I can transcribe audio from meetings in almost real time. It
| doesn't actually require blazing fast WPM to do that. I get
| plenty done. And no, the first working squeezebox prototype is
| not my daily driver. Second version I hope but it's more about
| the process and I wouldn't be surprised if it is just the next
| entry in a fairly long line of keebs to challenge my original
| ergodox full-hand and walk away leaving the ergodox as king of
| the hill.
| donio wrote:
| Looks a bit like the Datahand, been using those for the past 20
| years.
|
| One difference is that the Datahand also has keys on the left and
| right of each finger for a total of 5 keys on each.
| 1-more wrote:
| That's what I was looking for! Also the actuation pressure is
| probably way less on the DH since it uses infrared switches.
| donio wrote:
| Yeah, the feel of those switches is a big deal and it's
| probably the hardest part to reproduce.
|
| One funny consequence of using IR switches is that direct
| sunlight can trigger them. I've had a few occasions when I
| was greeted by a screenful of repeated characters when I
| returned to my desk.
| jeofken wrote:
| I recently broke my left hand bones, and am absolutely useless
| using Emacs and other tools, or even typing.
|
| How do HN solve the problem of programming with one hand?
| zzzzzzzza wrote:
| https://www.tapwithus.com/ tapstrap2
| 1-more wrote:
| I added foot pedals to the keyboard I built so I could do
| hold/tap modifiers with my feet. They were command and shift on
| hold, enter and tab on tap. I imagine you'd want one to be
| control for emacs. The problem is if you can't type right now
| I'm not sure you can solder. Sorry friend.
| wellthisisgreat wrote:
| I was actually wondering how often people do this. Did you do
| this because of some kind of injury or in pursuit of
| ergonomics / out of curiosity?
|
| If the latter, how would you say this affected your workflow?
| In terms of typing speed, overall enjoyment, fatigue, or any
| other metric of productivity or comfort?
| wellthisisgreat wrote:
| Not quite the complete solution maybe, but I have been using
| split keyboard (Sinc, Quefrency) for a long time and have been
| lately drifting towards making each half somewhat independent
| by using layers/ modifier keys. I am more focused on left hand,
| but I thought maybe it could be adapted for the right.
|
| You don't need a special Keybaord to try it out, can just used
| Karabiner Elements (OSX) or Autohotkey (Windows). Lmk if you'd
| want some template scripts for either, happy to share them with
| you.
|
| I have Caps mapped to Layer-1 which allow me to do CAPS
| (pinky)+ WSAD (arrows), g(backspace), we (PGup, PGdn), z
| (enter).
|
| Now I don't want to reach for number keys from [7] to = and I
| just map them to CAPS + 123456.
|
| Recently i realized that I often have reach for the letter keys
| on the second half (y, n for example for notification windows),
| so I remapped some letters to those.
|
| I am thinking of actually drawing up a layout which will allow
| me to use the sides interchangeably but still need to figure
| out which Modifier key to use, that could be as convenient to
| press with the pinky as Capslock.
|
| For the right side I assume it could be same or, possibly even
| somewhat easier since, depending on the keyboard you'd have
| more keys reachable with a pinky to experiment with.
|
| Alternatively, if you dislike this pinky-centric approach or
| feel like you'd want to use all the fingers for typing, you
| could possibly do the same but with a foot pedal as a modifier
| / layer switcher. I suppose if I was to find myself in a
| situation where I have to type with just one hand, I'd look
| into the pedals that can send HID commands (to keep things
| simple for OS) or even get a couple of those jumbo mechanical
| keyboard switches and use them as foot-actuated modifiers /
| layer switchers.
| Nekhrimah wrote:
| Dvorak also designed left and right handed keyboards [0].
|
| [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dvorak_keyboard_layout#One-
| han...
| donio wrote:
| If it's an option at all I would take a break from it while
| recovering.
| teddyh wrote:
| The Twiddler, maybe? https://twiddler.tekgear.com/
| ents wrote:
| Azeron keypad, but for typing instead of gaming.
| patja wrote:
| I kept looking for a connection to the Squeezebox media player. I
| don't think there is one.
| jschroedl wrote:
| I was just reminded of Logitech Squeezebox. Might have a naming
| conflict.
| pavel_lishin wrote:
| I assumed it was some sort of accordion-like keyboard that was
| partially air-powered.
| cestith wrote:
| I didn't expect it to be actually air powered. I did expect
| it to have two vertical surfaces with keys on either side of
| a central structure, possibly flexed in and out slightly as a
| modifier key.
| adrianmonk wrote:
| FYI, squeezebox is a nickname for the accordion going back
| decades before internet streaming.
|
| For example, in 1975, The Who released the song "Squeeze Box"
| (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4n02PD18cFs).
| bigmattystyles wrote:
| I recommend you re-listen to that song for their meaning of
| Squeezebox
|
| edit: I looked it up and the Who claims there was no double-
| entendre; I call BS
| (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Squeeze_Box_(song))
| cestith wrote:
| There may be (at least officially) no double entendre
| intended, but of course you're far from the only one to
| have heard it.
| reputet wrote:
| As an ergonomic keyboard, it reminds me the dear old Kinesis
| keyboards. [1] I've met two people who use them. One tells it's a
| big leap from the classic keyboards and that the ergonomic
| keyboards are far more convenient (when you got used to them).
| The other person is not as excited about it. In accordance with
| his experience, the Kinesis feels different, but the performance
| for him is the same.
|
| I think when it comes to keyboards and layouts, the QWERTY type
| have become a user habit that is really hard to change. Yes,
| Dvorak might be easier to type, but as long as it is not common,
| software developers don't pay attention to such a low demand and
| you have get around all the shortcuts issues that you face. E.g.
| Ctrl + x/c/v are no longer in a row as well as the Vim-like
| "hjkl". And you have to put extra effort to maintain this
| matching.
|
| Like the Dvorak layout, the Squeezebox Keyboard design is non-
| standard and I think a casual user would face challenges trying
| to adapt the keyboard to day-to-day tasks.
|
| Nonetheless, I do like the concept of the Squeezebox Keyboard.
|
| https://www.amazon.com/Kinesis-Advantage2-Ergonomic-Keyboard...
| m463 wrote:
| It's a tough one... do you bow to convention or do you forge a
| new path.
|
| I remember for years thinking that conventions on motorcycles
| SUCKED. One thing that bothered me was that using the back
| brake on a motorcycle required your foot, which seemed to me
| like trying to do surgery with a mallet. The gearshift was to a
| lesser degree inaccurate with your foot. Thing is, every
| motorcycle follows the convention, so you would have to figure
| out your own system, then modify every motorcycle you used to
| use it.
|
| I was heartened when I heard of a pro roadracer who use a
| thumb-brake for the rear brake. :)
| shocks wrote:
| I love my Kinesis. Could never switch back.
| bsdubernerd wrote:
| I've been using the advantage pro (first model) for more than a
| decade after using (and trying) a ton of other keyboards,
| including popular choices like the microsoft natural line, some
| oddballs like the ergomagic (now defunct), split-flat
| (goldtouch go!) and so on...
|
| For my personal preference the advantage is the best. I've
| trained both with dvorak and querty, and honestly didn't see
| any significant difference in either. For practical purposes
| I'm sticking with qwerty.
|
| What makes the difference is:
|
| - Columnar layout. Typing on a staggered layout just feels very
| wrong after getting used to a simple columnar layout. You don't
| need to get fancy with the rest: this is the #1 improvement for
| me.
|
| - Thumb cluster for modifiers. This completely changes the
| dynamic of how shortcuts are executed.
|
| - Good palm rest and key arching. The position overall feels
| just right when either hovering over the keyboard OR resting on
| it. Sadly, this result in a big keyboard that takes a ton of
| space.
|
| What I don't like about it:
|
| - Very bad position for ESC and overall position and switches
| for the Fn keys. I would have done another row just above
| instead of their layout. - Bad choices for some key positions
| (I'd move shifts to the thumb cluster and move away home/esc,
| INS is unusable, etc). Overall the kinesis' choice is to allow
| easier switchover from a regular qwerty keyboard so I do at
| least get the reasoning for the layout. - Too tall on the desk.
| I wished they would shave 3-4cm in height just by removing the
| empty space inside.
|
| It's actually an easy keyboard to pick-up and start to use.
| Looks daunting, but most people I've challenged to try can get
| by after a few minutes thanks to the familiar qwerty layout.
|
| To remain on topic, I really like the squeezebox on principle.
| There are some very interesting prototypes shown in the page
| (the vertical layout is something I'd love to physically try).
|
| I do agree with other commenters that some finger movement is
| actually good, for the same reason is not healthy to stick your
| hand on the palmrest while typing.
|
| There are not enough keys IMHO. I've contemplated multiple
| times to 3d-print myself a kinesis clone and/or an ergodox-
| alike, but I'd probably go for 5 rows and 6 columns per cluster
| at least in order to have the Fn keys as a _part_ of the
| cluster.
|
| You can physically ignore extra keys in such a layout. One
| extra column on the sides or top row makes no difference if you
| don't use the key often, so you might just as well have the
| extra convenience available.
|
| Clearly, the same is not true in a design like the squeezebox.
| And I don't want to criticize the squeezebox for this. I
| greatly believe different people might like different physical
| approaches to typing.
| reputet wrote:
| Thanks for sharing it!
|
| > INS is unusable
|
| What about _Ctrl+Insert_ and _Shift+Insert_? Or
| _Ctrl+Shift+C_ and _Ctrl+Shift+V_ can handle all the cases?
| bsdubernerd wrote:
| Yes. The [Ctrl|alt]+Shift actually feels more comfortable
| than a regular keyboard, since it's very easy to stretch
| the pinky and the thumb, and still have 3 fingers available
| (you can reach any other key). The same is true in both
| sections of the keyboard. Learning to use both shift and
| ctrl keys (depending on which key comes next) is something
| that takes some getting used to, but feels very natural.
|
| The problem I have with INS is due to it's position,
| requiring generally the ring finger to overflex to reach
| it, making it unbalanced to use compared to other keys.
| grae_QED wrote:
| It's essentially a folded Corne keyboard [1]. I like how you can
| adjust the vertical position of each row, that's definitely new.
| Over all this is a very cool direction to take ortho linears.
|
| [1] https://github.com/foostan/crkbd
| pipnonsense wrote:
| Has anyone ever tried a "glove" keyboard?
|
| It seems feasible, and it could be beneficial by giving more
| flexibility for your arms, wrist, and hands position (I imagine
| myself typing with my arms resting in chair arms or my thighs).
| Also, it would be great for VR, I would assume.
| corytheboyd wrote:
| Human interface device innovation is such a cool field to see
| things come out of. Everything from very real accessibility
| advances to purely fun concepts are so interesting to me. It's
| fun to think about there being some undiscovered setup that just
| 10x's your output-- maybe it uses brainwaves, your eyebrow
| movements, a clutch, or all/none of the above!
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(page generated 2021-05-19 23:00 UTC)