[HN Gopher] The Amish as a source of tech-savvy guidance
___________________________________________________________________
The Amish as a source of tech-savvy guidance
Author : choult
Score : 132 points
Date : 2021-05-19 11:17 UTC (11 hours ago)
(HTM) web link (psyche.co)
(TXT) w3m dump (psyche.co)
| gwbas1c wrote:
| I wonder if I'm weird because I don't want a smart speaker in my
| house? Then again, I still find voice recognition so sketchy that
| I just don't want to deal with it.
|
| On the other hand, the real reason why I put smart switches in my
| home was practical. I hate that 3-way switches have no fixed "on"
| or "off" motion, so I started with smart switches to replace my
| 3-ways. Then I realized that the timers on smart switches are
| easier to program and adapt to Daylight Savings Time, so I put
| more in.
|
| I'm an early adopter and I also approach new technology very
| conservatively. I can totally understand why the Amish don't rush
| out and adopt everything.
| mxuribe wrote:
| I'm with you; you're not weird! (Or, maybe we're both weird!) I
| don't want a smart speaker because i can't see any worthwhile
| value that i get from it. I especially like your example of the
| 3-way switch...that seems a conscious decision that clearly
| added value for you without just trying new tech for new tech's
| sake, etc.
| closetohome wrote:
| Adding voice control to lights is surprisingly handy.
| mxuribe wrote:
| This reminds me of I.O.L. Now *that* is a feature that
| everyone should have in every room of their home:
| https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oHoXX4QtY3s
|
| (Sorry, could not resist ;-)
| hannasanarion wrote:
| I have never understood the appeal of smart speakers. A smart
| speaker can't do anything that a smartphone can't already do,
| and I have that on my person at all times.
|
| Spotify sent me a google home for free, and in a year I have
| only intentionally used it once or twice, and I think on one of
| those occasions my phone answered the wakeword first, so what
| even is the point? 99% of the times it waked were responding to
| me telling someone "okay cool", or my cat stepping on it. A few
| months ago it went in the old dead electronics pile, and a few
| weeks ago that pile went to a recycler, hopefully the metals in
| it can be turned into something actually useful.
| c22 wrote:
| I know several older people who refuse to reckon with modern
| phones (or, in one case, a cellular phone at all) but who
| have accepted "smart" speakers into their homes. I am not a
| fan of _things that are always listening_ but I do appreciate
| the effort to bring "smartphone utility" to other
| objects/interfaces.
| blacktriangle wrote:
| I remember a few years back reading a National Geographic article
| about the Amish and their love of cellphones. The point was the
| Amish accepted cell phones where they had rejected landlines for
| the simple reason that with cellphones they could turn them off,
| with a landline your family time could be interrupted.
|
| The bigger picture was that the Amish view of technology was not
| to view 1857 or whenever as the year technology stopped, but
| their view was to evaluate technology in light of where it fit in
| their culture. Hard work is a virtue, so why do I want tools to
| make things easier. Raising barns together draws us together as a
| community, so what's the value in technology that lets fewer
| people build a building. And so forth and so on.
|
| On the surface the idea of evaluation technology based on impact
| seems great, but the thing is the Amish never invent anything.
| The rest of culture invents without thinking about the
| consequences and deals with the consequent. The Amish have the
| luxury of sitting back and evaluating after the fact. In
| fairness, I don't think the Amish really care if anything new
| does get invented, but they have effectively externalized the
| downsides of technology onto the rest of us while reaping the
| occasional upside.
| jquery wrote:
| _"Amish women are not taught anything about sex, according to
| Garrett, which makes it even harder for a girl who 's being
| abused to describe what's happening to her.
|
| Mary said she didn't know how to describe what was happening.
| "I thought they were being bad to me. That was the only word I
| had to express it," she said.
|
| In an Amish culture unaccustomed to women speaking up, Mary
| felt she got more scolding than sympathy when she told her
| mother what was going on.
|
| She said her mother told her, "You don't fight hard enough and
| you don't pray hard enough." Mary said her mother made her feel
| as if the assaults were her fault. "Every time I would talk
| about this she would say that they have already confessed in
| church and you're just being unforgiving," she said.
|
| ...
|
| "The funny thing is that they view drinking alcohol until you
| puke as bad a sin as raping somebody. They get the same
| punishment for either one," Mary said.
|
| But Amish-style punishment was not going to bring Mary the
| justice she wanted. And for her, the final straw came when she
| suspected a younger brother, David, was molesting their 4-year-
| old sister._"[1]
|
| -----------
|
| _MCCLURE: The majority of my sources never made a police
| report. They never had a court case. Whenever I spoke with
| these women, they had dozens of other victims that they told me
| about, dozens of other cousins and friends and family members
| that - they told me that this had happened to them, too. And,
| obviously, I can 't put a number out there that's unverified or
| not supported or corroborated by a court case or a police
| report. It's very difficult to do a story like this where the
| evidence is limited. And so just anecdotally, just based on my
| conversations with these women and men, there are a lot more
| victims out there in Amish country that we may never know of
| simply because there is no paper trail._[2]
|
| -----------
|
| [1]https://abcnews.go.com/2020/story?id=316371&page=1
| [2]https://www.npr.org/2020/01/19/797804404/investigation-
| into-...
| dash2 wrote:
| I think it's good not to idealize any community, but this
| comment needs a little more context if it's meant to convey
| more than just "Amish bad!!!"
| jquery wrote:
| I'm suggesting that maybe we shouldn't be getting our life
| pro-tips from a rape cult.
|
| _The Amish Keep to Themselves. And They're Hiding a
| Horrifying Secret. A year of reporting reveals a culture of
| incest, rape, and abuse._ - January 14, 2020 by Sarah
| McClure
|
| https://www.typeinvestigations.org/investigation/2020/01/14
| /...
|
| EDIT: I shouldn't be surprised that pointing out Amish
| sexual assault makes HN spitting mad. Few things make HN
| angrier than implying rape is a problem worth caring about.
| chucksta wrote:
| Calling them a rape cult is a little extreme. Although I
| do agree they are far to evangelized on the internet. For
| the most part they are just people with an 8th grade
| education, trying to get by with religion and
| community/family coming first
| sparselogic wrote:
| If your statements are coming from experiences you've had
| in this culture, I'm very sorry. Their authority-centered
| and closed culture has sheltered many abusers. This is a
| serious ongoing problem, and I'm aware of many people who
| have suffered.
|
| But to be clear: none of the religious practices of the
| Amish involve rape. The same weaknesses are present in
| many other similarly organized groups (see the ongoing
| scandals in the Catholic Church, less reported but
| similar patterns in southern Baptists, and even the
| military's serious issues with sexual abuse).
|
| Singling out the Amish and claiming that something
| they're deeply ashamed of is the focal point of their
| religion is textbook hasty generalization and hyperbole.
| ska wrote:
| > Their authority-centered and closed culture has
| sheltered many abusers.
|
| This is a much broader phenomena I think; isolated
| communities with fairly centralized authority lend
| themselves to sheltering abusers.
| [deleted]
| [deleted]
| dheera wrote:
| > with cellphones they could turn them off, with a landline
| your family time could be interrupted
|
| Interestingly, I often miss landline times, because with
| landlines it was a fair excuse to say you were out and weren't
| reachable, whereas in the cell phone era people tend to expect
| you to be always reachable, and I'm in vehement disagreement
| with that kind of expectation from anyone other than an SO or
| close family member.
| newsbinator wrote:
| "Sorry, my phone was on do not disturb"
| dheera wrote:
| And then your coworkers try to convince you to not use
| that.
|
| "So how can I reach you then [at all times]?"
|
| They simply cannot comprehend a world in which people are
| (gasp) not reachable at all times and plan around such an
| assumption.
| snarf21 wrote:
| I live in Lancaster and have been around Mennonites my whole
| life. I don't disagree with some of your points but I think
| there is more nuance to it. My understanding is that it isn't
| about delaying judgment on new technology, it is about chasing
| "wants" or "keeping up with the Joneses". This is what their
| culture is designed to protect against. They know that cars are
| more efficient than a horse but if one person gets a car,
| another person will be tempted to a nicer one, and the next one
| even nicer. So to prevent the chase, they say they aren't
| allowed. The same with clothes or appliances or technology.
| This is how they can still do okay with farming because they
| don't have any million dollar tractors. Their costs are super
| low and they have large families to do the labor so they don't
| need to hire workers.
|
| Lots of Amish have cell phones but it is mostly the younger
| ones and they hide them in the corn fields. They sneak out at
| night or use them when they work off the farm. It might be
| surprising to some that the Amish have moved into the trades
| with a force. Most of them can't farm anymore because there
| isn't any farmland for sale in Lancaster anymore, and lots have
| pushed west to Ohio or Indiana or Iowa. The ones that work in
| the trades, get picked up every day and ride in someone else's
| $80K crew cab truck, they go into the convenience store and buy
| breakfast and lunch just the same as everyone else. They have
| learned that there is more money out in the "English" world
| than in farming. It will be interesting to see what happens
| across time as they get used to "keeping up".
| yabones wrote:
| The Amish/Mennonites have an interesting take... Some of them
| are 'allowed' to drive cars, as long as they're black base
| models and are "modest" and largely utilitarian. There are also
| rules about which types of equipment they can have, so no
| tractors but they can have skid steer loaders for
| "construction" which they hitch regular farm implements to. No
| electricity allowed in the house, but no real restrictions
| about power in the "shop" or battery powered devices.
|
| It's a strange combination between modesty and strategically
| bending rules. I kind of adore that.
| derg wrote:
| > It's a strange combination between modesty and
| strategically bending rules. I kind of adore that.
|
| It's very earnestly human. Being rigid is fine and all but it
| also kind of sucks a hell of a lot. So it turns into a "how
| can I make this suck a little less without breaking what I
| believe in _too_ much? " which is something I think we all
| struggle with but it's really laid bare here with the
| contrast between their lifestyle and ours.
| ska wrote:
| > The Amish/Mennonites have an interesting take...
|
| Anabaptist communities vary far more than you suggest. It's a
| bit like Judaism that way; sure some are identifiable by
| particular dress etc. but there others you wouldn't notice at
| all in the SUV beside you on the highway.
| jandrese wrote:
| The politics involved in the community are fascinating. They
| have local committees that decide the rules for a community,
| anywhere from a neighborhood to a small town. But those local
| committees also coordinate at a higher regional level to set
| overall policy, and the various regions also coordinate at
| the top level. This means a decision made at the top level,
| like "no electricity in the home" gets filtered down through
| the communities with different interpretations of the rules.
| A particularly strict community might ban all automation in
| the home, while another will ban power lines but allow
| battery operated tools, while another will ban all
| electricity but allow air tools causing people to develop air
| powered hand mixers and refrigerators. You see a lot of
| clever workarounds for arbitrary rules in the Amish
| community. It is very common to see rules bent or broken when
| necessary for a job, like a farmer being allowed to burn
| gasoline/diesel to run farm equipment even when his local
| community bans using it for anything else. Some of the
| furniture makers have rather sophisticated workshops
| (although nothing CNC) which allow them to make the furniture
| efficiently enough to sell it for a very low price.
| nonameiguess wrote:
| Where? My ex-girlfriend from 12 years ago came from Amish
| country and I got to meet some when we visited her family. Not
| a single house even had electricity. They wouldn't have been
| able to charge a mobile phone even if they had them. I remember
| mentioning some Italian food I liked for some reason or other
| while having dinner with them and none of them even knew what I
| was talking about. They knew about the existence of Italy, but
| none of the cuisine, not even basic names of dishes. They
| didn't exactly come across as people with exposure to the
| broader world afforded by remote communications technology.
|
| I'm sure every community is different, though, as you would
| expect in the absence of widespread remote communications.
| bryanrasmussen wrote:
| So, nobody in this family when they had rumspringa went out
| and ate pizza?
| willcipriano wrote:
| My reading of this really depends on the food involved. If
| it's something like bagna cauda the OP is being a little
| pretentious, if it's spaghetti I'm shocked.
| meristohm wrote:
| There's no reply option for the answer to your question,
| so I'll add mine here: I've heard of tiramisu but can't
| picture it, can't remember tasting it, and my memories of
| food still feel robust. I've done more than my fair share
| of world travel, including all over Italy, and I'm
| generally adventurous with food.
| Stratoscope wrote:
| > _There's no reply option for the answer to your
| question_
|
| HN tip: The reply link on new comments in a thread may
| not appear immediately. I think this is a measure to
| discourage heated back-and-forth replies.
|
| But you can always click the "n minutes ago" link to open
| the individual comment and reply there.
| ggambetta wrote:
| As someone who signed up to participate in the Tiramisu
| World Cup in Treviso (near Venice) [but ended up not
| going], I can only offer my condolences :_(
| bryanrasmussen wrote:
| yeah, hence my pizza quip.
| nonameiguess wrote:
| The specific item I remember quite well because of the
| hubbub it caused (apparently, my astonishment was was
| considered insulting) was tiramisu. I don't think that is
| pretentious. It's available from common supermarkets, but
| this was a few miles outside of Gap, Pennsylvania. I
| don't know the area well, but Gap is only a town of a
| thousand people that likely doesn't have restaurants.
| Lancaster would have, given it has a college.
|
| It's not like I got a detailed life history from these
| people, but if you ever get the chance, the level of
| culture shock can be striking. The biggest event of my
| time there was the neighbor's horse that was used to
| drive the plows sustaining an enormous gash on its front
| right leg. That effectively stopped work as people rushed
| to try and stitch it up. With no machinery, they're
| entirely reliant on horses to accomplish any meaningful
| field work, so a serious injury to one can severely
| impact yield.
|
| They are prepared for that, though. Thanks to not making
| much in the way of purchases of virtually anything from
| the outside world, resources only flow in so they have a
| surplus of everything they need to last years if they
| need to hunker down. Any form of community wealth is
| entirely kept in the community, so there were apparently
| some fairly vast intergenerational savings built up.
|
| So I don't know if the concern was really that being down
| a plow was going to have any material impact on anyone's
| ability to eat, but it was dramatic nonetheless. I didn't
| ask, but I got the impression the guy driving the plow
| was as distraught as he was because he considered the
| horse a friend. He seemed distressed by the amount of
| pain it was in.
| Stratoscope wrote:
| > _apparently, my astonishment was considered insulting_
|
| If you feel astonished that someone is unfamiliar with
| something, that is an emotion best kept to yourself. I
| have learned this the hard way when people reacted poorly
| to my own expressions of astonishment.
|
| Consider how someone might feel after hearing you say
| something like this:
|
| "What??? You've never heard of _tiramisu???_ "
|
| (I'm not saying that's how you put it, just giving an
| example of an astonished reaction.)
|
| Instead, meet them where they are and explain without
| judgment the unfamiliar term:
|
| "Oh, tiramisu is a delicious Italian dessert. It's made
| with ladyfinger cookies, mascarpone, and coffee.
| Mascarpone is a soft creamy Italian cheese, often used in
| desserts, sometimes in savory dishes too. Would you like
| me to send you a tiramisu recipe? You will be in for a
| real treat!"
| munificent wrote:
| Related: https://xkcd.com/1053/
| scubbo wrote:
| +1 to the sibling suggestion of xkcd's "Lucky Ten
| Thousand", but also https://jvns.ca/blog/2017/04/27/no-
| feigning-surprise/
|
| EDIT: Which, I see now, also quotes the xkcd strip.
| Stratoscope wrote:
| That is a great little article. I like the way it
| addresses how someone may feel that "I'm not _feigning_
| surprise, I _really am_ surprised! "
|
| As the article says, regardless of how you feel
| internally, choose the external action that is likely to
| give a happy interaction rather than an unhappy one.
| Natsu wrote:
| I wouldn't say that tiramisu is that common. I myself
| probably only learned of it 10 years ago or so. I can
| only think of one place that serves it, and I live in a
| very large city.
|
| As for the animals, yes, it's pretty normal to bond with
| them and care about them, especially something like a
| horse.
|
| It's definitely a completely different culture, though,
| no doubts about that.
| names_are_hard wrote:
| Wait, is tiramisu really that common that everyone knows
| what it is?
|
| I think you're expecting too much from others. I didn't
| grow up Amish, and although I did grow up in a non-
| assimilated insular religious community I've been living
| in Western secular society for about 10 years now.
|
| The only Italian foods I can think of are pasta (I can
| name spaghetti and macaroni and lasagna and that's it)
| and pizza, which I knew of since childhood. Lately I've
| seen the word tiramisu around but I have no idea what it
| is. I think I saw it on a cake in a bakery and I assumed
| it was pretentious for chocolate but actually I don't
| know. I certainly didn't know it was Italian.
| jsolson wrote:
| Going a bit off-topic here, but as a tiramisu lover I
| feel compelled to say that if you like desserts and
| coffee, generally, you might consider trying some if the
| opportunity presents itself.
|
| A bit more on topic, I'd generally agree that it's not so
| common as to be universal. I don't think I'd heard the
| word in any way that registered as significant before my
| mid-20s, and I'm certain I never tried it until my late
| 20s or early 30s. I grew up in the suburbs around
| Pittsburgh, PA with plenty of passable Italian
| restaurants -- but tiramisu simply wasn't a dessert
| people in my family ordered.
| leviathant wrote:
| Central Pennsylvania has a pretty substantial population
| of people of Italian heritage, and at least throughout
| the 90s and early 2000s, a great many of the restaurants
| in the area served Italian food. I used to eat Italian
| all the time, and I don't have a drop of Mediterranean
| blood in me. So, arguably, not knowing about Italian food
| in Lancaster county would be kind of a shocker.
| reaperducer wrote:
| _Where? My ex-girlfriend from 12 years ago came from Amish
| country and I got to meet some when we visited her family.
| Not a single house even had electricity._
|
| Lots of places.
|
| The term "the Amish" is so broad that it is largely
| meaningless, unless everything you know is based on
| stereotypes.
|
| See also: "The Americans," and "The Christians."
|
| You and I are both "HN Users," but I suspect very different.
| I wouldn't want to be judged based on your lifestyle just
| because we both belong to this group.
| stonemetal12 wrote:
| The Amish near me have a little hut (kind a looks like a
| guard shack) at the end of their driveway. That is where they
| keep their cell phone.
| dbcurtis wrote:
| Every community IS different. Amish hold Sunday meeting in
| their homes, rotating who hosts. Therefore, everyone in the
| community must live within a practical buggy ride of each
| other. The community elects a bishop. The bishop has final
| say for that community. So.... lots of variation in the
| nuances of rules between communities.
|
| "Live in the world without being of the world." There are
| many interpretations of that.
| jghn wrote:
| Yep. I went to a Mennonite wedding a few years back and the
| thing that struck me was just how much perceived variation
| there was within the larger Anabaptist community vs how
| much _real_ variation there was.
|
| There were noticeable differences community to community,
| often less than a mile away. Things like their stance on
| modern technology, plain dress, etc.
|
| At the same time it was considered a huge deal that the
| bride & groom came from different communities as they had
| conflicting theological views. I forget the key difference
| but it was something smaller than I experienced as a child
| whenever we'd change Roman Catholic Churches.
| kazen44 wrote:
| > we'd change Roman Catholic Churches
|
| just curious what do you mean by changing Roman Catholic
| churches? As far as i know there is only one roman
| catholic church, but with different dogma's depending on
| region.
| User23 wrote:
| There are many churches in full communion with Rome that
| are not Roman[1].
|
| [1] https://canonlawmadeeasy.com/2007/09/20/are-they-
| really-cath...
| prewett wrote:
| "Church" often means "congregation", so he probably meant
| changing parishes, emphasizing that although the broader
| denomination remained the same, individual
| parishes/congregations/churches were often substantially
| different.
| jghn wrote:
| As prewett said, I was referring to individual parishes.
| I didn't mean to capitalize the `C` in `Churches` which
| perhaps added to the confusion. Whenever we'd shift
| parishes due to moving or whatever there was always very
| slight & subtle differences.
|
| For instance, this was all post Vatican II but close
| enough that some were very much still old timey in feel
| and others felt more contemporary. Another example stems
| from the homilies the priests would give, each individual
| would have their own spin on things and that can have a
| huge impact on atmosphere.
|
| Specifically what I meant by my comment: my recollection
| was that some of the key differences in those anabaptist
| congregations I mentioned tied to physical layout during
| service. Who sat where, who stood where, etc. Those were
| the sorts of things that was _always_ a bit different
| parish to parish in my experience attending mass at a
| number of RC parishes.
| [deleted]
| chucksta wrote:
| Are you sure that article wasn't about Jewish people? I've
| heard that about them, and turning them off makes it easy to
| follow the sabbath, never the Amish.
|
| Most of them in lancaster county do not have cell phones, but
| have phone booths in a remote corner of their farm so it's not
| convenient.
| cat199 wrote:
| According (loosely) to the CMM approach, Amish could be thought
| of as more technologically 'mature', since they have clear
| policies around evaluating technology according to clear
| requirements which have been optimized over time, rather than
| simply chasing trends
|
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capability_Maturity_Model#Leve...
| routerl wrote:
| Neal Stephenson coined the idea of "amistics": the evaluation
| of technologies not for efficiency, but from an existing value
| system. Named after the Amish.
|
| I've been living like this for a while, without having a name
| for it, but at a pretty fine-grained level, for instance by
| staying off (most) social media.
|
| We all make these decisions. E.g. people's valuing privacy
| precludes their owning an Amazon Ring.
| httpz wrote:
| Amish have that luxury because they're in their safe bubble in
| rural America. Any other communities that tried to live that
| lifestyle probably got wiped out by their neighbors through out
| the history.
| bluGill wrote:
| They have also cultivated a reputation and so they get leeway
| to do things that the average person wouldn't be allowed to
| do. Most of us wouldn't want live in a house not connected to
| the power grid, so the fact that in some places it is illegal
| unless you are Amish doesn't bother us.
| alisonkisk wrote:
| Pretty rude to blame them for "externalizing" something not
| caused by the them.
|
| By the same token, they are externalizing the upside of early
| adoption while suffering the loss of benefits, while providing
| us a living illustration of the alternative to our own choices.
| minikites wrote:
| >The Amish have the luxury of sitting back and evaluating after
| the fact. In fairness, I don't think the Amish really care if
| anything new does get invented, but they have effectively
| externalized the downsides of technology onto the rest of us
| while reaping the occasional upside.
|
| This reminded me of an Atlantic article making a similar point:
| https://www.theatlantic.com/technology/archive/2013/07/camp-...
|
| >But Baldwin asks, "Where did you get your axe? And the slide
| camera and the stove, the flour, the nails, the books, the
| garden seeds, and the window glass?" While it seemed that
| they'd gotten farther away from a technological life, "they'd
| merely lengthened the umbilical cord." And here's the key part
| of the criticism: "By moving to the bucolic boondocks, that
| happy family dodged the undesirable effects of the technology
| that was supporting them even as they sneered," he concludes.
|
| I think we all need to be more engaged and thoughtful about our
| choices, how they affect our lives, and how they affect the
| lives of those around us, but we need to be alert for
| situations where we just push problems elsewhere instead of
| addressing them.
| 908B64B197 wrote:
| I've always had the impression that this type of retreats
| were more a trend or status signaling than anything else.
| selfhoster11 wrote:
| One thing that most of these items have in common is that you
| could reasonably recreate them from scratch if the modern
| manufacturing base disappeared:
|
| - Axe: The pole is made out of wood, and the blade out of
| metal that can be smelted from ore or scrap with some effort.
|
| - The stove: Same, or build one out of stone.
|
| - The camera: that one's more difficult, but optics or
| chemistry aren't that new. You may need specialised equipment
| to manufacture this, but it's still possible.
|
| - Nails: Smelt from ore or scrap into a mold.
|
| - Books: Wood pulp and printing presses, both of which are
| several centuries old.
|
| - Garden seeds: Literally will self-reproduce, bar any
| messing about with making them sterile via cross-
| contamination with commercial varieties.
|
| - Window glass: Melted sand, likely doable with a well-
| stocked workshop.
|
| It's more akin to a graceful degradation than lengthening the
| umbilical cord.
| kazen44 wrote:
| - The camera: that one's more difficult, but optics or
| chemistry aren't that new. You may need specialised
| equipment to manufacture this, but it's still possible.
|
| creating a functioning camera requires quite advanced
| machining to create parts with tolerances required.
|
| The same goes for most other items on the list, except for
| seeds and books. Creating an axe by hand is obviously
| possible, but getting the high-quality steel we use in the
| modern day is very hard without industrialization.
|
| Without a lathe and a way to power it, getting a camera is
| nearly impossible. Creating flat glass is also quite a
| difficult proces which requires melted lead or tin.
| at_a_remove wrote:
| I am not sure the Amish have pushed problems away or
| externalized them. These problems would continue to exist
| without the Amish or any other tech-hesitant group.
|
| I view them as a variety of groups who have made some
| reasoned compromises as to how much they will allow their
| adoption of technology to change their way of life. They do
| not seem like the type who think they can do it all on their
| own and understood that they live inside of another country,
| etc.
|
| Technology shapes us even as we shape it. They are at least
| attempting to put in some care as to what shaping they allow.
| bluGill wrote:
| For the most part everyone is like that. I have no clue how
| to make chips with a 3nm (um?) process. I saw a headline
| about IBM making progress on it a few weeks ago (or was it
| 2nm?) However I can sit back and enjoy the progress. In the
| mean time those people at IBM have no clue how to do the job
| I'm doing but they can enjoy it working. The people at IBM
| are smart, and I like to think I am: we could switch places
| and after a dozen years of training would be just as good -
| but at the expense of being behind in our current job.
| zdragnar wrote:
| That is an absurdly facile take. All of those things predate
| modern technology, and they could happily buy them had they
| been made without. The argument misses the entire point of
| what it means to be Amish.
|
| Even the wording (in particular, the choice of "sneered")
| makes me think the whole thing was written in bad faith.
| [deleted]
| reasonabl_human wrote:
| This is a beautiful point of view.... Now I'd like to meet some
| Amish people.
| dbcurtis wrote:
| Yes, well, when you live with them as next door neighbors you
| find that they have as many angels and scoundrels, as many
| wise and as many fools as any other group. The practicalities
| of their life are different, but they are people like you and
| me -- different priorities.
| thatguy0900 wrote:
| Come to Ohio campgrounds in the summer weekends, always have
| a Amish family selling baked goods, they're usually pretty
| friendly and open to talking. And their baking tastes
| amazing.
| cheese_van wrote:
| Their baking does taste amazing.
|
| But Amish women are often employed at local farmers markets
| to add local color and entice tourists into buying non-
| Amish bakery goods.
|
| That the Amish, a fairly closed culture, are objects of
| tourism, has always struck me as pretty damn weird.
|
| While it may reflect a nostalgia or longing for a simpler
| life, I know I wouldn't last long keeping a working farm
| alive. Plain lives are hard work.
| thatguy0900 wrote:
| I wouldnt call the Amish objects of tourism, they set up
| shop where people already are. And it's not them, just
| their cooking. I don't think anyone thinks about them at
| all, frankly, outside of that. I remember a while ago
| there was a fad for prominently Amish branded/built
| electric heaters, and I thought that was very strange.
| ape4 wrote:
| Its not so hard to "turn off" a landline. Turn down the ringer.
| If you have a cordless phone - unplug the base.
| Robotbeat wrote:
| Wasn't so easy in the past. They were often hardwired. This
| is one of the things Amish people were against: bringing
| electricity into the home. Battery powered devices were okay.
| alisonkisk wrote:
| Where do batteries get their power?
| [deleted]
| [deleted]
| [deleted]
| Robotbeat wrote:
| Usually a generator outside that you have to walk to.
| thebean11 wrote:
| The phone itself was hardwired into the wall? TIL
| jandrese wrote:
| Ma Bell kept and iron grip on the entire system until the
| Carterphone decision created a crack in their
| stranglehold. This is why when you see modems in old
| movies they have this crazy setup where you put the
| handset into a pair of rubber cones (acoustic couplers)
| because you weren't allowed to plug anything directly
| into the phone lines. You didn't even own the phone, you
| leased it from the phone company.
| abawany wrote:
| Old habits die hard: getting internet from AT&T ime still
| requires leasing their 'modem' for a monthly cost while
| cable providers let you bring your own device to avoid
| the monthly fee.
| jandrese wrote:
| Oh yeah, those hardware leasing fees are a goldmine for
| companies. Every so often you see a story about some old
| timer that is still paying for the hardware lease on
| their landline phone and someone does the math to
| discover that they've paid tens of thousands of dollars
| over the years to lease hardware that costs $25 new.
| bluGill wrote:
| The hardware they are leasing costs more than $25 new,
| more like $100. Sure you can buy a phone for $10 at the
| store, but the phones people leased where a lot higher
| quality (drop one off the desk and your floor is harmed
| not the phone) with a resulting higher price.
| dsr_ wrote:
| Before 1973, the phone company owned the wires right up
| to the phone on the wall, and often owned the phone as
| well.
|
| Then the FCC mandated that customer-provided equipment be
| supported, assuming it met standards.
|
| The RJ11 jack (and siblings, right up to the RJ45 for
| ethernet) came into widespread use after that.
| [deleted]
| dredmorbius wrote:
| You couldn't sell a cover intended for phone books, a
| shoulder-rest intended for AT&T (well, Bell Electric /
| Western Bell) handsets, or an answering machine that
| would be connected to phone-system wiring.
|
| It was a pretty brutal monopoly.
| slacktide wrote:
| When I was a kid, some of our phones were hard wired,
| some used a giant 4-pin modular plug. RJ11 wasn't
| invented yet. Pepperidge Farm remembers... http://www.cla
| ssicrotaryphones.com/forum/index.php?topic=336...
| tzs wrote:
| This 2009 article "Amish Hackers" [1] will probably be of
| interest to many here. It covers in detail the Amish approach to
| technology.
|
| [1] https://kk.org/thetechnium/amish-hackers-a/
| [deleted]
| skadamat wrote:
| Love it, reminds me a lot of Cal Newport's ideas:
|
| https://www.calnewport.com/blog/2017/09/18/approach-technolo...
|
| The focus should be on minimalism. Start by understanding your
| priorities, goals, and the mental ecosystem you want to inhabit.
| Then evaluate each tool for its effectiveness in the above pre-
| stated constraints.
|
| Every technology should have a clear purpose & place in your
| life, or it risks becoming into a form of media you lose control
| over.
| tboyd47 wrote:
| It seems they recognize that the community level functions of
| tech are more salient than the individual level functions. In our
| society we tend to take the opposite approach. We evaluate
| technology only based on how it benefits an individual, while
| overlooking its effect on communities.
|
| A desktop computer at work or in the living room somehow doesn't
| have the addictive qualities of a smartphone. Perhaps it's
| because all technology does is amplify networks, and the networks
| created by isolated people with devices are different from the
| bonds of family, work, proximity, etc.
| teddyh wrote:
| Anyone here who has had doubts about installing a "Home
| Assistant" in their home, or procuring a modern "Smart" TV, or
| anyone who recognizes themselves in this meme:
| (https://imgur.com/6wbgy2L) are essentially having the same kinds
| of thoughts as the Amish have about technology: Who is this
| technology serving? Is it really to the ultimate benefit of me,
| or my society?
| unobtaniumstool wrote:
| > https://imgur.com/6wbgy2L
|
| I can't tell if this is more quintessentially boomer humor, or
| IT worker humor.
| rhinoceraptor wrote:
| If you want IOT things that are fully under your control, it's
| definitely possible. Home Assistant with Tasmota/Zwave/Zigbee
| devices is very powerful, all without requiring any cloud
| connection.
|
| I have so many minor automations that add up over time. When I
| get home, my Z-Wave lock on the front door automatically
| unlocks. If I open the garage, the LED shop lights turn on and
| the door in from the garage unlocks.
| AnIdiotOnTheNet wrote:
| I'm curious what you do with the several seconds per day
| those automations save you. I imagine at least some of that
| time is spent troubleshooting and reconfiguring it.
| escalt wrote:
| To me, (home) automation is not (only) about saving a total
| amount of time. It's about saving time at the right moment.
| When I have lots of free time, I will happily spend it
| refining my home automations. It's a fun hobby and simple
| programming with things that you can actually see and
| touch. But when I just got home from a stressful day at
| work and have to hurry to some other appointment, saving a
| few seconds here and there can actually be very valuable.
| As long as all your "smart" stuff can't access the internet
| it's great.
| apples_oranges wrote:
| Regarding that picture: I wonder if a locksmith has a "no
| mechanical locks" policy.
|
| Otherwise it sounds like a case of "don't get high on your own
| supply".
| ancarda wrote:
| What do you mean? I tried looking up what a mechanical lock
| is, it's not clear to me. Would it be bad for a locksmith to
| sell one to you?
| hannasanarion wrote:
| In this context "mechanical" means "non-electronic".
| Mechanical locks are desirable because they have no unknown
| exploits, are not reliant on third party services, don't
| need batteries, and cannot be attacked remotely or en-
| masse.
| vkou wrote:
| Attacking a lock remotely still requires physical access
| to the property in order to reap the benefits of that
| attack.
|
| Given that most mechanical locks can be trivially picked,
| I fail to see the disadvantages of electronic locks. Yes,
| the failure modes of mechanical locks are better
| understood - they are understood to be incredibly
| serious, and easy to exploit. An $80 snap gun will open
| most locks, and requires zero skill or training to use.
|
| Saying that you prefer a mechanical lock to an electric
| one because its failure modes are well-understood is like
| saying that you prefer ROT13 encryption to <My homebrew
| encryption>.
|
| Are homebrew systems stupid? Yes. Is it likely that my
| homebrew system has problems? Yes. Are those problems
| well understood? No. Is it probably better than ROT13..?
| Yes, because ROT13 can be broken by a child.
| hannasanarion wrote:
| Security isn't the only thing that locks provide, they
| also provide access, which electronic locks will always
| be worse at.
|
| I say this as a person who used to own a smart lock and
| went back to a regular one because I was tired of getting
| locked out by dead batteries and malfunctioning
| bluetooth.
|
| Also on one occasion someone who was not authorized
| (fortunately a guest), unlocked my door and entered my
| house with the electronic lock because I happened to be
| sitting near the door on the inside.
|
| More electronics does not mean more better.
| vkou wrote:
| I'll agree with you on these points. The failure modes
| for an authorized user of an electronic lock are worse
| than for a mechanical lock.
| selfhoster11 wrote:
| Having watched the Lockpicking Lawyer's channel, I'd guess
| that a locksmith would prefer a well-designed mechanical lock
| to anything electronic.
| thedanbob wrote:
| I don't think I really admitted to myself how addictive my
| smartphone is until I uninstalled most of my apps and locked it
| down with a simple management profile (no web browser, no app
| store). I've had it this way for months and it's so much more
| pleasant now, yet I still have the same habit as mentioned in the
| article: I pull it out whenever I'm in the bathroom. Now that
| there's not much to do on it, I'm very well versed on the current
| weather conditions.
| Animats wrote:
| _" Tang's target customers were desk workers who downloaded
| meditation apps and people who paid for digital-detox camps."_
| They're selling virtue signalling.
|
| If that's what you want, get a new unlocked Android phone, and
| power it up without a SIM card. When it wants you to sign up for
| Google, click "later". Then remove the Google startup app to
| avoid further nagging. Then connect to WiFi or use a USB cable,
| download F-Droid, and load what you need from there. Remove most
| of the Google crapware, plus any other junk that came with the
| phone. Then add a SIM card. I have a ruggedized phone from
| Caterpillar Tractor set up that way.
|
| (Haven't installed a replacement for Google Play Services yet,
| though. I should.)
| SLWW wrote:
| I love the idea of technology as a tool; and the idea that
| "success" as viewed by how long someone uses that tool to be
| perverse in nature.
|
| Something to keep in mind while building the "tooling" of
| tomorrow.
| rednerrus wrote:
| This book helped change the way I think about technology:
| https://www.amazon.com/Better-Off-Flipping-Switch-Technology...
| It's about the Amish.
| jquery wrote:
| This helped change the way I think about the Amish:
| https://www.npr.org/2020/01/19/797804404/investigation-into-...
| https://abcnews.go.com/2020/story?id=316371&page=1
|
| _Johnny Byler 's sentencing brought out the largest crowd --
| and the most tears -- not in support of Mary, but in support of
| the confessed rapist._
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