[HN Gopher] US investigates second suspected case of mystery 'sy...
       ___________________________________________________________________
        
       US investigates second suspected case of mystery 'syndrome' near
       White House
        
       Author : shalmanese
       Score  : 140 points
       Date   : 2021-05-17 14:18 UTC (8 hours ago)
        
 (HTM) web link (www.cnn.com)
 (TXT) w3m dump (www.cnn.com)
        
       | jb775 wrote:
       | _A March report from the National Academy of Sciences found that
       | "directed, pulsed radiofrequency energy" was the most likely
       | cause of the strange set of symptoms -- so-called microwave
       | energy_
       | 
       | Maybe the Biden administration should start wearing tin foil
       | hats?
        
         | detaro wrote:
         | nice spherical/parabolic dishes with a focus-point in your head
         | is exactly what you _don 't_ want
        
           | smoldesu wrote:
           | It would do a great job of amping the signal right into your
           | cranium!
        
             | LinuxBender wrote:
             | We could bring chain-mail armor back into style. I
             | mistakenly searched for "chain-mail cosplay", not _linking_
             | to that.
        
               | klmadfejno wrote:
               | I got some chain mail bikini girls but that's about it.
        
           | rich_sasha wrote:
           | Noob q: wouldn't that be the case only for radiation coming
           | along the body axis? If tin foil reflects these waves at all,
           | having the radiation come from other angles should make it
           | less bad, no? Like if they come face-on, they won't catch any
           | of the concave part of the "dish" and be scattered away
           | instead.
        
           | colanderman wrote:
           | Microwave retroreflectors are a thing:
           | https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corner_reflector#In_radar Too
           | large for personal use, but one could certainly line a wall
           | with them. Would increase the danger of using such a weapon,
           | to have a significant portion of the signal reflected back at
           | the operator.
           | 
           | Apparently there's been some very recent research into planar
           | (and presumably more portable) microwave retroreflectors as
           | well: https://ieeexplore.ieee.org/document/9060553
        
         | jeffchien wrote:
         | Not sure why CNN chose to say March here, but the report (and
         | CNN's own article that was linked in the quote!) was from Dec
         | 2020 [1]. The CDC also studied this in 2018-2019, but they
         | didn't produce a theory [2].
         | 
         | [1] https://www.nap.edu/catalog/25889/an-assessment-of-
         | illness-i... [2]
         | https://www.documentcloud.org/documents/20444983-foia-21-003...
        
       | 1-6 wrote:
       | Time to break out my faraday cage hat.
        
       | fallingknife wrote:
       | What is the incidence of these symptoms in government employees
       | vs the general population? Is there even enough evidence to
       | establish that this isn't some unknown neurological disorder (or
       | multiple disorders given the range of symptoms)? The way our
       | medical system is set up, if it's not obvious or catastrophic,
       | you're symptoms will not be investigated in detail. So I tend to
       | think it's a more likely explanation that some directed energy
       | weapon from the Russians. That sounds like a cold war moral
       | panic.
        
       | paulpauper wrote:
       | There is no substance here. A few people have vague ill symtoms
       | due to some unknown cause.
        
         | meowface wrote:
         | It's over 130 diplomats and spies reporting it, at this point.
         | And the reports are very specific and not vague. I'd bet money
         | something real's going on and that the majority of the cases
         | aren't psychogenic.
         | 
         | Good article on it: https://www.gq.com/story/cia-investigation-
         | and-russian-micro...
        
           | pessimizer wrote:
           | You can find as many cops vomiting, shaking, and hospitalized
           | because they thought they touched fentanyl.
           | 
           | https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/fighting-
           | crisis/2020...
           | 
           | https://reason.com/2020/09/01/the-feds-who-made-americas-
           | fen...
        
             | meowface wrote:
             | That's with a direct stimulus, though. I'm sure if someone
             | put a fake "energy weapon" gun next to your or my head and
             | pulled the trigger, we'd probably start feeling
             | psychosomatic symptoms, too.
             | 
             | In these cases, the symptoms always come on totally
             | unexpectedly and abruptly, and immediately dissipate if the
             | victim walks away and return if they return. And they just
             | so happen to only occur in Havana and Moscow rooms with
             | American and Canadian spies and diplomats (aka probably
             | undercover spies, in many cases) in them, with the
             | exception of these three reported DC/Virginia cases.
             | 
             | I could write like a whole 20 page essay on this with all
             | the circumstantial evidence that makes me think it's likely
             | legit. I recommend reading that GQ article in full if you
             | haven't (https://www.gq.com/story/cia-investigation-and-
             | russian-micro...).
             | 
             | I think it's likely some percentage of these cases are
             | psychogenic, and it's even more likely for the DC cases,
             | but I think it's more likely than not that a lot of them
             | are real. It definitely might not be some kind of microwave
             | weapon, but whether it's just some kind of noxious chemical
             | or some crazy invention, I'd bet on it being real and
             | deliberate. I'm a very skeptical person and tend not to buy
             | conspiracy theories like these, but I think there's enough
             | substance at this point to consider it likely, IMO.
        
           | paulpauper wrote:
           | over a 5 year period
        
             | meowface wrote:
             | Yes, and? In my opinion, the evidence points to it being
             | more likely that the majority of cases are real symptoms of
             | an attack or collection technique, even if some of the
             | reports may be psychogenic.
        
           | 35fbe7d3d5b9 wrote:
           | > It's over 130 diplomats and spies reporting it
           | 
           | If you wanted to bootstrap a mass psychogenic illness, it'd
           | be harder to come up with a better scenario. You have
           | civilian employees of the US government living out of their
           | comfort zone, in a foreign country that is putatively "the
           | enemy". You're eating unfamiliar foods, sleeping in
           | unfamiliar surroundings, and all the while being told to be
           | on constant alert for the dangers posed by your host country.
           | 
           | > And the reports are very specific and not vague
           | 
           | Some may be specific, but you're significantly overselling
           | this. There are inconsistencies in both the reports of the
           | affected individuals and what data has been allowed to be
           | released by the US government.
           | 
           | https://skepticalinquirer.org/2021/03/nas-report-on-
           | havana-s...
        
             | meowface wrote:
             | Yes, the inconsistencies and just general human nature do
             | make me think some percentage are likely psychogenic. And
             | the microwave explanation doesn't have any specific
             | evidence at the moment. But I think there's more rigor to
             | it than you're suggesting, as well.
             | 
             | I recommend giving that GQ article a full read. It goes
             | into a lot of detail and isn't just some fluff piece. Their
             | sources also claim to have identified FSB personnel near
             | victims at the times of the attacks using the same method
             | Bellingcat used to track and locate Navalny's FSB assassins
             | (leaked telco geolocation data purchased on the black
             | market), as well. That alone doesn't necessarily mean
             | anything beyond surveillance, but it's interesting.
             | 
             | I absolutely could be wrong and it could all turn out to be
             | a mass psychogenic episode. But I'd put my money on there
             | being something here, even if I have no clue what it is.
             | (It could be something as "mundane" as poison or some kind
             | of harmful aerosol.)
        
       | belltaco wrote:
       | Can you develop a sensor that detects high levels of this kind of
       | radiation that can be put in a pocket or a purse and connects to
       | a smartphone.
        
         | devmor wrote:
         | It doesn't connect to a smartphone, but I have a device about
         | the size of a TV remote I use for measuring interference that
         | would pick this up. It cost me about $9 in parts minus the
         | arduino and 3D printer resin to make.
        
         | ampdepolymerase wrote:
         | You don't need to develop anything. This is a bog standard
         | antenna exercise. At the level of power being used here,
         | detecting it is trivial. The only issue for an omnidirectional
         | antenna is perhaps portability. The powers that be most likely
         | already know who is behind the attacks, or at least have a good
         | guess. What they are willing to sell to the press is another
         | question entirely.
        
           | mywittyname wrote:
           | I've always wondered what the reasoning behind discussing
           | these topics with the press. I can understand if some nosy
           | reporter is doing their job, uncovering information that is
           | being hidden from the public. But in situations like this, I
           | can't really see the value in discussing with the press; and
           | I'm sure they wouldn't say anything to the press without
           | getting some value from it.
        
             | rdiddly wrote:
             | Given how long this particular article goes on about how
             | they don't know anything, they're baffled etc., I'm
             | guessing the value of it is in concealing how much they do
             | know. Maybe an adversary is responsible and they know
             | perfectly well and want to make further observations. Or
             | maybe our own spy agencies are responsible.
        
         | nradov wrote:
         | Sure. Small microwave radio receivers exist.
        
         | goodpoint wrote:
         | Embassies around the world already monitor the radio spectrum
         | very carefully.
         | 
         | Collecting intelligence is one of the main reasons for
         | international diplomacy to exist.
        
         | kawfey wrote:
         | These exist for occupational use as PPE, not unlike ionizing
         | radiation monitors, e.g.
         | https://www.atecorp.com/category/personal-rf-monitors
        
         | meepmorp wrote:
         | > connects to a smartphone
         | 
         | Believe it or not, your smartphone already has hardware for
         | dealing with microwaves.
        
           | sobriquet9 wrote:
           | Only within certain frequency ranges. There are filters that
           | block everything else.
        
       | btbuildem wrote:
       | The details are sparse, but are these incidents happening
       | exclusively in / around US govt buildings and installations?
       | 
       | I wonder if it could be coming from their own infrastructure -
       | some side effect of an active RF shield or whatever.
        
       | GoodJokes wrote:
       | the sources on this whole thing are super stellar!
        
       | 1024core wrote:
       | And people thought that the tin-foil hat wearing crowd was a
       | bunch of weirdos... who's laughing now? :-D
        
       | cols wrote:
       | For those interested, below is a YT link to a long conversation
       | with Marc Polymeropoulos [0], a survivor of a Havana Syndrome
       | attack and a former CIA Senior Intelligence Service Officer. He
       | describes the evening of his "attack" in detail. He also goes
       | into great detail discussing his attempts to get help through
       | various medical channels. Curiously, it appears as if most/all
       | survivors have developed occipital neuralgia.
       | 
       | He also discusses the fact that apparently, after geofencing the
       | area around the attacks, there is a known Russian agent in the
       | proximity of the victim every time.
       | 
       | I take all of this with a grain of salt; I find it difficult to
       | trust any intelligence agency without a healthy dose of
       | skepticism, but quite interesting nonetheless.
       | 
       | [0] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y5jTbsvd3rA
        
       | turtletontine wrote:
       | I read a convincing article a while back about these incidents in
       | Cuba, by a neurologist saying this is all totally consistent with
       | stress triggered neurologic incidents, and the microwave/sonic
       | weapon stuff was all extraordinary claims with little evidence.
       | 
       | The first case listed here just says "headaches and sleep
       | trouble," buddy, I have that twice a week. I'm no expert but I'm
       | inclined to believe the intelligence apparatus is on some
       | overeager pattern matching.
        
       | Threeve303 wrote:
       | Is it even technically possible to take a microwave and apply
       | WiFi beam forming techniques to control the location and
       | amplitude of the signal?
        
       | boomboomsubban wrote:
       | I read most of the report when it was released, and their
       | conclusion was based on nothing. Their section on whether the
       | syndrome was psychological basically said "all available evidence
       | fits the hypothesis that it's psychological, but there isn't
       | enough to conclusively state it is."
       | 
       | They shouldn't be surprised that a bunch of people are coming
       | forward with a myriad of symptoms after a report like that.
       | Nothing in these two cases described have anything in common,
       | just felt ill somewhere near the White House. I doubt that's
       | uncommon.
        
         | BitwiseFool wrote:
         | This whole thing really seems like some Psychosomatic Disorder.
         | But I suspect that the people affected won't want to believe
         | "it's all in their head". But there are plenty of historical
         | parallels where groups of people started reporting the same
         | malady with no apparent rational cause. And I suspect our
         | modern day focus on rationality will lead to people looking for
         | increasingly outlandish explanations because they don't want to
         | believe that this is just some shared delusion that got out of
         | hand.
        
           | tantalor wrote:
           | https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dancing_plague_of_1518
        
             | amirhirsch wrote:
             | I'm calling it now: Covid-22 will be a Dancing Plague --
             | Also a good name for an ironic book about an air force
             | pilot who wants to become a ballet dancer, but how can he
             | learn to dance, if no one will dance with him...?
        
           | jonny_eh wrote:
           | It does, except the first case. That one was the most
           | descriptive, about a very loud noise in the victim's room. It
           | turns out that it may have been a particular type of cricket
           | that can produce shockingly loud noises, when in an enclosed
           | space (like a hotel room).
           | 
           | My guess is that the first "strange" report, and its
           | mysteriousness, led to people being on-edge and starting to
           | report any and all weirdness, creating this global "pattern".
           | 
           | Source: https://gimletmedia.com/shows/science-
           | vs/76hgkmv/havana-synd...
           | 
           | Sound recording: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nw5MLAu-kKs
        
             | [deleted]
        
           | boomboomsubban wrote:
           | Most people have a very recent experience with a similar
           | thing. Someone you know mistook their allergies or some cough
           | for COVID and convinced themselves it was serious. This is a
           | similar concept, except a negative test result only makes
           | things worse.
        
         | meowface wrote:
         | I was a little skeptical at first, too, and I saw the same
         | report, but at this point I'd bet serious money that the
         | majority of cases are real and not psychosomatic. The
         | psychological explanations have increasingly had less support
         | over the past few years.
         | 
         | It's definitely quite bizarre that there are now at least 3
         | reports of it happening in the DC area. In one case, someone's
         | dog was also reported as simultaneously being affected. There
         | were also unrelated reports of another dog being affected
         | (vomiting blood, among other things) in a hotel overseas. In
         | both cases, humans and adults were simultaneously affected, and
         | the symptoms both were experiencing wouldn't make sense if it
         | were just a dog reacting to their owner's anxiety.
         | 
         | I have no idea if it's microwaves, and I'm not quite sure if
         | the DC attacks are real, but I think there likely are some sort
         | of deliberate attacks occurring against US diplomats and spies.
         | Maybe a collection method that's inadvertently causing harm, at
         | least.
         | 
         | Here's an interesting article on it:
         | https://www.gq.com/story/cia-investigation-and-russian-
         | micro.... I wouldn't be surprised if some of the cases are
         | psychogenic (someone hears about it and then thinks they have
         | it, etc.), but I suspect the majority are real.
        
           | coliveira wrote:
           | Your account only make the whole thing to be made out of thin
           | air. There are numerous conditions that will make some people
           | or animals to feel bad/vomit. The fact that there are only 3
           | in the DC area means nothing, go to any large city and you'll
           | find multiple people with similar symptoms from different
           | causes.
        
             | meowface wrote:
             | Please read the GQ article I linked above if you haven't
             | (https://www.gq.com/story/cia-investigation-and-russian-
             | micro...). I understand if you're still skeptical after
             | reading it, but it'd be helpful if we could be working off
             | of the same information so that we won't need to use any
             | contrived example scenarios.
             | 
             | But I definitely acknowledge the DC cases are the ones that
             | are most likely to be psychogenic. I just found it
             | interesting that different dogs were allegedly affected
             | both there and overseas.
        
           | boomboomsubban wrote:
           | >It's definitely quite bizarre that there are now at least 3
           | reports of it happening in the DC area
           | 
           | No it's not. DC is one of the most paranoid areas around, a
           | significant portion of the population constantly thinks
           | someone is out to get them. Three of those people now have
           | symptoms without a clear medical cause.
           | 
           | >wouldn't make sense if it were just a dog reacting to their
           | owner's anxiety
           | 
           | But it would make sense that the sick, stressed owner
           | accidentally fed the dog something bad, or accidentally
           | kicked the dog without realizing it, or forgot to feed the
           | dog forcing it to eat something bad.
           | 
           | As for Polymeropoulos, he felt sick, completely got over it,
           | then started worrying that the illness may have been the
           | Havana syndrome. Only then did the more serious ailments
           | occur.
        
             | meowface wrote:
             | I definitely acknowledge the DC cases are the ones that are
             | most likely to be psychogenic. I just found it interesting
             | that different dogs were allegedly affected both there and
             | overseas. And as for Polymeropoulos in particular, I'm not
             | sure.
        
             | raman325 wrote:
             | Do you have any evidence to back up the claim that "a
             | significant portion of the DC population constantly thinks
             | someone is out to get them"? Admittedly anecdotal but I
             | live in DC and I wouldn't characterize myself or anyone I
             | know in the area that way
        
               | meepmorp wrote:
               | > Do you have any evidence to back up the claim that "a
               | significant portion of the DC population constantly
               | thinks someone is out to get them"?
               | 
               | Not OP, but I'd point to people working in Fort Meade and
               | Langley who are paranoid by trade.
        
       | f430 wrote:
       | It's already been verified unofficially amongst Biden's people
       | that Cuba and this is PRC's doing. I am ready to receive
       | downvotes as is often case criticisms of the CCP on HN are
       | quickly flagged and censored.
       | 
       | Just look at where YC gets a lot of their capital from. It's
       | really sad as a non-American to see how your own fellow citizens
       | actively seek to undermine the values of your country for
       | personal enrichment.
        
         | maccam912 wrote:
         | Do you have a link to this unofficial verification?
        
         | [deleted]
        
         | anoonmoose wrote:
         | You're not getting downvoted for criticizing the CCP, at least,
         | not from me. You're getting downvoted for making unverifiable
         | claims ("it's been verified unofficially amongst Biden's
         | people") and for your pre-emptive complaining about being
         | downvoted. Just want to make this clear.
        
       | SnowProblem wrote:
       | When I was researching the Cuba cases, I stumbled upon this Wiki
       | article: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Microwave_auditory_effect.
       | It says there is a mechanism where microwaves can cause you to
       | hear sounds that don't exist. In the 70s, they apparently
       | improved the method so subjects were able to recognize 9 out of
       | 10 words, although I don't think it's been reproduced. There are
       | some strange patents as well. The problem is this subject is
       | laced with conspiracy theory because you'll find forums for
       | people with mental illness attributing their symptoms to these
       | devices. But it is interesting, and I'd expect if it were
       | possible the military would have such devices. Has there been any
       | proof that this method actually works?
        
         | katmannthree wrote:
         | That mechanism, by the way, is microwave heating of the brain
         | -- thermal expansion causes cranial pressure to rise, and by
         | carefully modulating the microwaves those pressure signals are
         | interpreted as sound by your inner ear.
        
           | Enginerrrd wrote:
           | I previously have read that it's more specifically heating
           | and cooling of the inner ear itself.
        
             | sudosysgen wrote:
             | It's the entire head that is being heated, but perhaps the
             | inner ear is the critical spot.
        
               | R0b0t1 wrote:
               | The entire head is being heated, slightly, but it can
               | only cool by dissipating that heat to the environment.
               | This happens slowly enough I do not see it as possible to
               | achieve audible frequencies with such a heating/cooling
               | cycle.
               | 
               | The auditory effects have to be generated by RF, possibly
               | frequency phased modulation, interacting with the inner
               | ear.
        
           | R0b0t1 wrote:
           | Unlikely. The symptoms presented in the article may be due to
           | this, but the auditory effect is related to effects on the
           | inner ear and bones.
        
           | DyslexicAtheist wrote:
           | It seems the burning skin sensation is used in "Active Denial
           | System" weapons researched and tested by the US (mainly for
           | "crowd control"):
           | https://www.dvidshub.net/video/304622/solid-state-active-
           | den...
           | 
           | The Soviets focused on the non-thermal applications of
           | microwave radiation which can cause a variety of symptoms
           | making them _plausibly deniable_. A 1976 report by the
           | Pentagon reviewed Soviet research:
           | https://www.dia.mil/FOIA/FOIA-Electronic-Reading-
           | Room/FOIA-R...
           | 
           | This article from few days ago has a lot more info than the
           | CNN post: https://www.gq.com/story/cia-investigation-and-
           | russian-micro...
           | 
           | from the GQ article:
           | 
           | > _" The report detailed Moscow's investigation of the
           | effects of microwaves on the nervous system. Soviet, and
           | later Russian, scientists found that exposing an animal's
           | brain to microwaves changed the frequency at which neurons
           | fired. Neurons also became suddenly out of sync with one
           | another. Some brain cells in mice were found to have
           | withered. Nerves became damaged. The radiation also showed
           | the potential to disturb the sacrosanct blood-brain barrier
           | and, according to the DIA, resulted in "the alterations of
           | brain function." The most common symptoms reported in humans
           | who had been exposed to microwaves for long periods of time
           | sounded familiar: headache, fatigue, perspiration, dizziness,
           | insomnia, depression, anxiety, forgetfulness, and lack of
           | concentration.
           | 
           | > Like Frey, Soviet researchers found that turning the
           | intensity of the beam up or down could produce differing
           | effects in its target. A target's unique physiology--a
           | slightly different curvature of the skull, for example--also
           | determined how this directed energy would affect them. A
           | weapon that created an ever-changing kaleidoscope of
           | neurological symptoms would have a powerful psychological
           | dimension. If everyone's symptoms are all slightly different,
           | victims might question whether they'd all been exposed to the
           | same thing--or if they'd been hit at all."_
        
         | dr_dshiv wrote:
         | Are you familiar with temporal interference stimulation? I
         | wonder if this could be induced through high-power radio waves.
         | 
         | https://www.cell.com/cell-systems/pdf/S2405-4712(20)30372-0....
        
       | frankus wrote:
       | This is probably more of a thriller-novel MacGuffin than a
       | hypothesis, but if you compromised a few nearby cell towers to
       | interfere with each other just so, it might be possible to create
       | a small pocket of very intense radiation without needing any
       | other hardware.
        
       | Stranger43 wrote:
       | Is there any real reason why we assume were dealing with an
       | physical phenomena induced by an external source(rf/radiation)
       | and not some new variant of post traumatic stress, we are after
       | all dealing with people living/working long hours inside an
       | highly paranoid and potentially very dysfunctional organization.
       | 
       | If there exist an blood test as the article claim it's should
       | point to an chemical source rather then an electromagnetic source
       | of the illness, and if that's the case we are almost certainly
       | looking at American procurement incompetence rather then
       | something nefarious by external actors.
       | 
       | So far there is not a lot of evidence pointing at any kind of
       | illness ray being deployed by nefarious actors.
        
         | nicklecompte wrote:
         | FWIW I suspect this is a case of mass hysteria or other
         | psychogenic illness but there really are microwave weapons out
         | there in the real world, and the Havana syndrome symptoms are
         | quite similar to the results of microwave attacks (or
         | accidental exposure, eg a sailor who steps in front of a
         | powerful radar array). In fact I suspect the growing awareness
         | of microwave weaponry - which are sincerely terrifying - makes
         | the prospect of psychogenic illness more likely.
         | 
         | > If there exist an blood test as the article claim it's should
         | point to an chemical source rather then an electromagnetic
         | source of the illness
         | 
         | That's not true - an EM attack could conceivably affect the
         | blood chemistry directly (radiation can destroy proteins and
         | cause complex organic reactions). But the symptoms themselves
         | will also leave biomarkers that can be picked up - hormones,
         | transmitters, etc. Even if it was a case of mass hysteria you
         | could probably design a low-sensitivity blood test around it.
        
         | danbruc wrote:
         | _If there exist an blood test as the article claim it 's should
         | point to an chemical source rather then an electromagnetic
         | source of the illness [...]_
         | 
         | Not necessarily, you could detect the reaction instead of the
         | cause in the same way an antibody test does not detect the
         | pathogen or a drug test may actually detect a metabolite and
         | not the drug itself.
        
           | dboreham wrote:
           | You'd need a test for "cooked flesh".
        
             | s1artibartfast wrote:
             | You can absolutely see results from cooked flesh on a blood
             | test. The problem is that there are other possible causes
             | for the results than cooked flesh
        
           | Stranger43 wrote:
           | for there to be specific antibodies to the cause i cant see
           | how that would happen without some foreing element having
           | been in the bloodstream. or be the result of close proximity
           | to radioactive materials.
           | 
           | It might be that they don't really have an blood test for
           | specific traces but have an correlation between the presence
           | of stress hormones and people suffering the symptoms which
           | only really proves that the involved people are not lying
           | about feeling sick, it don't really answer the "illness ray"
           | vs "post traumatic stress" question.
        
             | Enginerrrd wrote:
             | This is wrong. There's actually biomarkers for PTSD that
             | are detectable from a blood test. [1]
             | 
             | Stresses can do all sorts of things, change gene
             | expression, trigger proteins or breakdown products, etc,
             | etc. All of those things can produce measurable changes.
             | 
             | [1]https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/21392516/
        
               | thatcat wrote:
               | That's neat, but the gap between going to a GP and
               | getting that test administered in the US seems difficult
               | to bridge.
        
               | Stranger43 wrote:
               | yep thats kind of my point, PSTD is a real enough thing
               | that it can legitimately cause symptoms and leave traces
               | in the blood.
               | 
               | The problem is that those are almost exactly the same
               | kind of processes that theoretically could result in an
               | "illness ray" leaving traces in the bloodstream.
               | 
               | A big problem here is probably that the US government
               | haven't yet fully internalized how real PSTD and other
               | stress related symptoms are, and is still treating it as
               | if kind of "fake" especially when it comes to paying for
               | treatments. so the people campaigning for getting the
               | victims help is forced to push some sci-fy inspired
               | illness ray theory.
        
         | eu2c wrote:
         | > we are after all dealing with people living/working long
         | hours inside an highly paranoid and potentially very
         | dysfunctional organization
         | 
         | Given the ever growing info streams pumping ever growing
         | amounts of BS into their heads 24x7, its quite possible the
         | brains Shannon Limit has been breached, which would mean ever
         | increasing errors in what the brain perceives.
        
         | wang_li wrote:
         | There are many blood tests to measure things that are not
         | indicative of a chemical intrusion except in the loosest sense.
         | Blood sugar, stress (cortisol), and vitamin d (blood chemistry
         | changes directly influence by electromagnetic effects) are
         | three basic examples that come to mind. White cell counts (for
         | a number of reasons including radiation damage) comes to mind
         | as well.
        
         | buhhh wrote:
         | lmao
        
       | miika wrote:
       | Check this CNN clip from 1985
       | 
       | https://youtu.be/fq17HUxkTZ8
        
       | sschueller wrote:
       | Could it be a stingray (cell interception device) running at
       | power levels way beyond legal limits to make sure it's heard over
       | regular LTE/5G towers?
        
         | ceedan wrote:
         | Seems like a good theory based on the locations and victims
        
         | snypher wrote:
         | Maybe someone turned it from 10db to 20db, it's only twice as
         | strong right?
        
           | WrtCdEvrydy wrote:
           | Logarithmic scale... 3db = 2x... 10 to 20b is ~8x (2^3) the
           | amount.
        
             | meepmorp wrote:
             | I think that was the joke.
        
       | joshuaheard wrote:
       | I though the symptoms in Cuba were determined to be caused by a
       | mosquito pesticide.
        
         | itronitron wrote:
         | https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2019/10/191003111753.h...
        
       | draw_down wrote:
       | I wonder how many people who call this "Havana syndrome" were
       | among those who got bent out of shape about the "China virus"
       | thing last year.
        
       | mc32 wrote:
       | What if it's a measures + countermeasures that's adding up to
       | weird syndromes in some edge cases?
       | 
       | It's curious that so far it has only been reported to affect
       | American personnel, but you'd imagine an adversary would have
       | many adversarial targets from and in different counties, unless
       | we suspect we are specially targeted and then mostly low level
       | personnel?
        
         | earth_walker wrote:
         | Canadian diplomats in Cuba were exposed previously:
         | 
         | https://www.cbc.ca/radio/asithappens/as-it-happens-tuesday-e...
        
         | HumblyTossed wrote:
         | Wouldn't counter measures just need to be passive (ie:
         | literally a tin-foil hat)?
        
           | unnouinceput wrote:
           | Faraday cage, yes, if dealing with electromagnetic
           | waves/radiation
        
         | Natsu wrote:
         | Honestly, it makes me wonder if some spy gear of our own is
         | malfunctioning somehow and they can't admit it so they spin up
         | conspiracies.
         | 
         | I mean, where's the device? The last time they came out with
         | evidence, it was a recording of _crickets_ ...
        
       | nabla9 wrote:
       | This sounds like yet another Yellow Rain
       | https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yellow_rain
        
         | sudosysgen wrote:
         | I had never heard of Yellow Rain before. That's very
         | interesting.
        
         | Forbo wrote:
         | The US accusing their enemies of doing something that they
         | themselves had actually been doing. Golden.
         | 
         | https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agent_Orange
        
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