[HN Gopher] How to design a sailing ship for the 21st century?
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How to design a sailing ship for the 21st century?
Author : sealeck
Score : 98 points
Date : 2021-05-17 10:14 UTC (12 hours ago)
(HTM) web link (solar.lowtechmagazine.com)
(TXT) w3m dump (solar.lowtechmagazine.com)
| newsclues wrote:
| If there can be a tax on luxury cars that are transported by ship
| or planes powered by fossil fuels that is reduced by wind powered
| shipping, I'd gather there would be innovation in this industry.
| samatman wrote:
| > _Lithium-ion batteries are very compact, but they cannot be
| considered sustainable and bring safety risks_
|
| C'mon this is silly. The dominant safety risk of a small vessel
| (and all of these are small in modern terms) is capsizing in
| heavy weather, with the loss of all hands.
|
| LiFePO batteries, built into a bank with _really excellent_
| waterproofing, would be quite adequate to the job. If lithium
| battery technology _in general_ proves to be unsustainable, we
| may as well pack up and go home, because decarbonization isn 't
| going to happen.
|
| Taking the average specific energy of LiFePO from Wikipedia, we
| get 12.5kg per kWh, almost five times denser for a proven
| technology you can buy off the shelf. 4.4 tonnes for the larger
| battery, compared to 9 tonnes for the smaller saltwater battery
| sketched out in the draft, and 21 tonnes for the larger one.
| That's 16.6 tonnes of additional life support the ship can carry;
| stowing a ship is a classic knapsack problem, there's no such
| thing as an "acceptable" amount of tonnage and volume to leave
| out of the equation.
|
| Using saltwater batteries here would be an ostentatious stunt.
| Arguably that's what this whole thing is: an ostentatious stunt.
| But it doesn't have to be, it's a good proving ground for much
| larger sail ships, and a thousand tonnes here, a thousand tonnes
| there, pretty soon you're talking about real cargo. Electricity
| requirements should be very much sublinear with cargo capacity as
| well.
| _ph_ wrote:
| Most yachts are switching to LiFePO, because they perform so
| much better than any lead-based batteries. Haven't heard about
| safety issues.
| Teknoman117 wrote:
| I still remember someone demonstrating the relative safety of
| LiFePOs by driving a nail straight through one in front of
| me.
|
| The LiPo immediately started smoking and within a few seconds
| erupted into flame, the LiFePo (an A123 cell) didn't really
| do much of anything at all, other than no longer functioning.
| rocqua wrote:
| I think for ships of this size, fire is a bigger risk than
| capsizing.
| outworlder wrote:
| > If lithium battery technology in general proves to be
| unsustainable, we may as well pack up and go home, because
| decarbonization isn't going to happen.
|
| Exactly.
|
| Lithium is not that uncommon. It's just that the reserves that
| we have found (so far) where nature helpfully decided to
| concentrate it for us are not very common. If we don't use
| those, then it's expensive to extract (both in money and
| energy). That's another argument for expanding renewables. Put
| them to work to extract lithium from salt water.
|
| Oil had a very similar argument, but we keep finding reserves
| and devising ways to use previously uneconomical reserves.
|
| Now, once extracted, we recover most of it when it comes time
| for recycling. I bet older marine batteries would have plenty
| of uses as second-life energy storage for stationary
| applications. It may take decades until we even have to recycle
| them.
|
| > safety risks
|
| As for the safety risks... One of the main ways to contain a
| battery fire is to spray water on it. Is ocean water is too
| salty(therefore, conductive) for this application?
| lardo wrote:
| I've never sailed in blue water, but I thought that modern
| weather and navigation infrastructure mean bad weather can be
| largely avoided. Either way fire on board is still something to
| be avoided.
| jgeada wrote:
| Major storms can move faster than most sailboats can sail out
| of the way.
| samatman wrote:
| The electricity still must be distributed around the ship.
|
| Proper weatherproofing can easily make the battery the least
| likely point of failure in the whole system.
| nradov wrote:
| Sure modern motorized merchant vessels generally route around
| major named storms (except for rare tragedies like the SS El
| Faro). But if you want to carry cargo reliably for paying
| customers then you're going to have to sail into bad weather
| occasionally. Winter weather in the North Atlantic is usually
| bad and can change quickly. There's no avoiding it.
| decafninja wrote:
| Not a sailor nor a maritime expert by any means, but IIRC Japan
| now has submarines that uses lithium-ion batteries to power
| submerged movement. Granted it is mil-spec.
| Someone wrote:
| Yep. https://www.popularmechanics.com/military/navy-
| ships/a344285...
| puzzlingcaptcha wrote:
| The most popular class of bulk carriers (some 70%) are the mid-
| sized Handymax and Supramax with ~50 000 deadweight tons
| capacity, while employing a similar-sized crew of ~15. I honestly
| don't know what this clipper would need to carry to be
| profitable.
|
| https://maritime-connector.com/bulk-carrier/
| samatman wrote:
| Ecotourists, and premium goods which advertise their cutting-
| edge sustainability.
| aww_dang wrote:
| https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yP1f3Df6SXE
|
| Maybe this kind of lifestyle appeals to enthusiasts, but I can't
| see modern unions allowing some of the dangerous work out on the
| sails.
| tdfirth wrote:
| Thanks for sharing this interview. I've seen about 10 minutes
| so far and I'm hooked. I just love learning about lives that
| are/were so different to mine.
| mistrial9 wrote:
| aargh - this is a step in the expansion of humanity on a planet
| divided by vast oceans, a way of life, adventure and the actual
| elements of air, water and sun..
|
| a union rule book is .. what? boring!
| 6gvONxR4sf7o wrote:
| It's a nice case of how anything can be 'just a job' to the
| people doing it, at which point the people doing the work
| really want safety at work, even if to outsiders it looks
| like an adventure.
| bombcar wrote:
| I see no reason why most of the sail work couldn't be automated
| and motorized.
| aww_dang wrote:
| Rigid wingsails make more sense than tall ships, unless you
| are looking for nostalgia.
| client4 wrote:
| It's a bit tangential, but I enjoy Moxie's (of Signal) stories
| relating to sailing. https://moxie.org/stories/together-two/
| edeion wrote:
| Tangent: thank you for the link, the whole website looks very
| promising! That's a tremendous collection of articles on low
| energy footprint. I've only skimmed through some of them but it's
| a joy!
| castaweh wrote:
| I sailed cape to cape on the Bark Europa in 2018, and while we
| did need to use the engines at times, there was a strong
| preference to sail under wind power unless absolutely necessary.
| Everyone in the crew was very much environmentally focused. On
| the point about warm showers... It's pretty cold down there
| around Antarctica!
|
| I loved travelling with nothing but the wind powering us, and I'd
| prefer to sail over flying, preventing a lot of emissions.
| Unfortunately the world moves too fast now and we can't afford to
| spend months at sea.
| maCDzP wrote:
| If you are interested in an account of how it was to sail tall
| ships I can recommend "Around Cape Horn" [0]
|
| If you are curious about sailing tall ships. And have the means.
| Apply to one of these ships [1]. I have gone sailing a couple of
| times and it's one of the most rewarding experiences I have had
| so far.
|
| [0] https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=9tuTKhqWZso [1]
| https://sailtraininginternational.org/sailtraining/
| Lev1a wrote:
| German documentaries about the "Peking"s journey home to
| Germany from NYC [0] and then the restoration process itself
| [1] in Germany. Unfortunately for international viewers there
| are only auto-generated subtitles (and translations from those)
| which from a quick look are just horrendous.
|
| [0] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n11HVFKO0jA
|
| [1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=So609NxlTcw
| lnwlebjel wrote:
| You would probably enjoy the book _Two Years Before the Mast_
| by Richard Henry Dana - an account of working on a tall ship in
| the 1820 's (Boston - Cape Horn - California). It's a personal
| favorite.
| SubiculumCode wrote:
| The website has a battery that indicated something was at ~83%.
| Apparently it is the solar-powered battery that is running the
| server. Cool.
| luke2m wrote:
| Imagine the irony if a tanker ship had sails.
| yboris wrote:
| "Oceanbird's huge 80-meter sails reduce cargo shipping
| emissions by 90%"
|
| https://newatlas.com/marine/oceanbird-wallenius-wing-sail-ca...
| meepmorp wrote:
| Hypothetically. They've not built such a beast.
| atlantageek wrote:
| I struggle with this whole article. It implies keeping a sailing
| ship labor intensive just with a few electric winches. Wing Sails
| seem like a better approach and I assume they are much less labor
| intensive.
| jasonwatkinspdx wrote:
| You're spot on. I've followed this topic area for some years
| out of curiosity. Saildrone style wingsails only require a very
| small electric actuator to move a control surface. The control
| surface sets the overall net angle of attack of the assembly.
| The wing tracks the wind, only needing the control surface
| changed as the bow crosses the wind.
|
| A system like this can be entirely labor free.
|
| Tall ships on the other hand... I don't care how many electric
| winches you have, they'll always require massive numbers of
| people for sail handling.
| irishjohnnie wrote:
| Yup. OceanWings by VPLP
| https://www.hellenicshippingnews.com/vplp-design-signs-its-f...
| hyko wrote:
| _It is surprisingly difficult to build a carbon neutral sailing
| ship_ ... _if_ you somehow rule out using wood, because "some of
| the trees might not grow back". Utter bullshit!
| silicaroach wrote:
| Finally, a proper look at the cost in most respects of the real
| cost of a 'sustainable' technology. We need more of these but no
| one will pay nor pay attention.
|
| Unfortunately though, sail driven ships are kind of useless for
| the efficient movement of cargo. Masts are required and take away
| stowage space and, more importantly, make efficient cargo
| loading/unloading impossible. Read the book "The Box" to
| understand the changes brought about in cargo shipping over the
| last century.
| aclatuts wrote:
| Tanker boats could probably use sails without loading and
| unloading getting in the way. I would imagine it's just hoses
| and pumps to get the liquid out.
| bombcar wrote:
| Exactly, and these are precisely the vessels that can most
| handle slower transfer speeds - as you just have more
| sailboats to make up for slower speeds/smaller sizes. All
| that matters is how many arrive each day, as the cargo is
| fungible.
|
| In fact, doing such would provide a buffer that could help
| prevent supply shocks.
| TylerE wrote:
| At what point does the additional resource of building a
| lot more ships (which have more crew, eating more food,
| producing more waste) result in a net negative?
|
| Oceangoing ships have a relatively short useful life...salt
| water is rough on metal.
| bombcar wrote:
| I suppose the upper limit would be when it's possible to
| make an ocean-wide winch system and you can just hook
| barges to it and pull them across the ocean.
| jasonschlatt wrote:
| Just hook containers to it like cable-cars and move them
| across.
| vanderZwan wrote:
| Instead of sails we could try other methods, like kites, or
| that weird turning-metal column effect. To name two serious
| proposals I've seen
| minitoar wrote:
| I assume you're referring to the Coanda effect.
| prideout wrote:
| I think rotor sails leverage the Magnus effect, not the
| Coanda effect.
| krisoft wrote:
| Good news on the "weird turning-metal column effect" front:
| they just installed five tilting rotor sails on a newlybuilt
| bulk ore carrier.
|
| https://gcaptain.com/newbuild-vale-vloc-revealed-as-bulk-
| car...
|
| Why is this important? It shows that the ship owners has seen
| enough promise in the technology to overcome the potential
| risks. If it works out well for them we will very likely see
| wider adoption.
| loudmax wrote:
| From that article:
|
| "If the pilot proves effective, it is estimated that at
| least 40% of the fleet will be able to use the technology,
| which would result in a reduction of almost 1.5% of Vale's
| annual iron ore maritime transport emissions."
|
| Well, that's a step in the right direction so something to
| be applauded. But taken alone, an emissions reduction of
| "almost 1.5%" isn't going to save the planet.
| naravara wrote:
| How does this work? The article assumes I should already
| know the mechanics of it, but googling only seems to turn
| up a bunch of the same sorts of articles.
| krisoft wrote:
| I'm not an expert on it really. They rotate the giant
| cylinder and the wind is blowing by. The rotation forms a
| low pressure zone one side of the cylinder which acts as
| a lift force perpendicular both to the rotational axis of
| the cylinder and the wind.
|
| It's the same effect which "turns" a soccer ball if you
| kick it with a spin. There is a really nice demonstration
| of the effect in this video:
| https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2OSrvzNW9FE
|
| This wikipedia page has a way better summary than my
| attempt above: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rotor_ship
| aivisol wrote:
| > However, by definition, the sailing ship is not a carbon
| neutral technology. For most of history, sailing ships were built
| from wood, but back then whole forests were felled for ships, and
| those trees often did not grow back.
|
| I do not understand this sentence. If I cut down a tree and do
| not burn it, isn't it a carbon neutral process? It did not
| release any carbon into atmosphere. By this logic is there any
| material to use to build something which is neutral?
| faichai wrote:
| It will eventually rot and release its captured carbon.
| LeifCarrotson wrote:
| All trees, even those which are not cut down for constructing
| a sailing ship, also eventually rot and release _most of_
| their captured carbon. Only those which are burned
| efficiently in a high-oxygen environment turn completely into
| CO2.
|
| In a natural forest, it's true that a tiny fraction of this
| biomass derived from atmospheric CO2 rots incompletely on the
| forest floor and is turned into a small amount of carbon-rich
| soil, but this process is glacially slow. [1] suggests
| single-digit grams per square meter per year. Rotting on the
| seafloor may or may not be any better or worse.
|
| Relatedly, carbon sequestration projects have biological
| carbon intake as one option. Instead of using industrial-
| scale chemical or electrical reactions to pull carbon from
| the atmosphere, use photosynthesis. Grow some trees, process
| them into ethanol and graphite, and bury the carbon-rich
| waste forever.
|
| [1]: DOI:10.1007/978-3-540-92706-8_11 https://www.researchgat
| e.net/publication/225314103_Soil_Carb...
| dtech wrote:
| Tree contains X Co2 => Tree gets cut down without
| replacement => ship gets made and rots => X Co2 releases
| into atmosphere. Net Co2 = +X
|
| Tree contains X Co2 => Tree dies => New tree grows in
| opened up space. Net Co2 = 0
| marcinzm wrote:
| Why do you assume the tree would not be replaced, we
| plant more trees than we cut down nowadays for example.
| The only reason to not replant the tree is if the land
| was being used for something but then the tree would have
| been cut down anyway ship or not.
| rocqua wrote:
| The original quote at the top of this thread says that
| ships were build from trees that were felled _and not
| replaced_. The discussion started from that assumption.
| socialdemocrat wrote:
| Anyone interested in a fair comparison should point out
| the error of that comparison. Using wood in a managed
| forest it's not a bad thing. It's greatly preferable to
| extracting coal and oil.
| socialdemocrat wrote:
| So what? That's part of the natural CO2 cycle. The problem
| isn't carbon dioxide. The problem is adding CO2 from fossil
| fuels. As long as there is a net growth forest there is no
| problem. Just make sure you replant trees cut down. It is
| more important that we start extracting coal and oil.
| Gupie wrote:
| Yes, and it is not releasing fossil carbon.
| AtlasBarfed wrote:
| Plus, it's my impression (it could be very effective marketing
| by the lumber industry) that lumber trees are quickly grown and
| chopped in farms and controlled logging. And the next tree is
| planted.
|
| I'd guess that construction is probably a pretty good sequester
| for the wood/carbon in terms of length of service, and
| likelihood for controlled recycling or burial after its done.
|
| The logging industry is likely incented to maximize the carbon
| sequestration rate: which is growing trees producing future
| lumber.
| tantalor wrote:
| "by definition" of what? Carbon neutral or sailing ship?
| Neither term is defined in the article, and neither
| interpretation makes any sense.
| tofuahdude wrote:
| The tree is no longer alive to photosynthesize co2.
| c06n wrote:
| It only takes up Co2 in its growth phase, not afterwards.
| aidenn0 wrote:
| That seems intuitively true, but apparently it's still
| debated whether old- or new-growth forests are more carbon-
| negative.
| socialdemocrat wrote:
| It is really only a debate about when exactly trees stop
| growing and consuming CO2. Given enough time, sooner or
| later the tree isn't consuming CO2. At that point there
| is no point in leaving the tree standing. Cut it down and
| let a new tree grow there.
| TeMPOraL wrote:
| Yes, but a tree that isn't growing isn't trapping much carbon
| dioxide either.
| citrin_ru wrote:
| A tree cannot live forever. Once it is dead all (or almost
| all) accumulated carbon slowly released back into atmosphere
| as CO2 by bacteria. So cutting trees and preserving them from
| decay is a carbon negative process in a long run.
| abfan1127 wrote:
| how is it carbon negative? wouldn't it be neutral? unless
| the trees were sent underground to prevent release into the
| atmosphere? or became petrified?
| goodpoint wrote:
| Correct: to make a change we would have to bury millions
| of tons of valuable wood deep enough that the co2 stays
| trapped. In short, it would be the opposite of extracting
| and burning oil.
| socialdemocrat wrote:
| If I keep cutting down and re-growing trees on the same
| plot of land over and over again I will reduce the total
| CO2 in the atmosphere as long as the cut down trees are
| not burned or rot. You can avoid that by building houses
| for instance. Or boats.
| counters wrote:
| The thought could be that in "tree form", the material
| contributes to the net uptake of carbon from the atmosphere, so
| once it is harvested that negative flux on the balance sheet
| shifts equilibrium more towards lower or net negative uptake.
| It's relative.
| Aperocky wrote:
| That's not true though, the tree stop growing at a certain
| point and is really carbon neutral until it dies and decays
| into the ground and new ones replace it.
|
| By removing trees and planting new ones, this process is sped
| up and more carbon is removed from atmosphere.
| naravara wrote:
| During the age of sail most of those forests were cut down
| and turned into farms or pasture-land. So there was a net
| increase in carbon emission just from the expansion in
| human activity.
| socialdemocrat wrote:
| If you were going to build a farm there anyway, then it's
| better to build a ship out of that wood than to burn it
| down.
| forgotpwd16 wrote:
| Discussed few days ago:
| https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27128257
| carapace wrote:
| One of the comments there (
| https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27138310 ) pointed out
| this video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i2WKJtbm8yM about a
| project to build a cargo ship:
|
| > This is a summary of our story so far, from building the
| shipyard to shipbuilding. The film follows the progress made by
| SAILCARGO INC. a young organisation emerging from the mangroves
| of Costa Rica, with the bold aim to change how the world goes
| about international shipping.
|
| https://www.sailcargo.org
|
| > Building Ceiba: 45m Square-Topsail Cargo Schooner
|
| > We are a group of shipwrights, carpenters, business
| professionals and sailors. Ceiba is our effort to inspire
| change in the industry to which we have devoted our lives.
| Ceiba is a sustainably-constructed vessel that will carry
| cargo, 100% emission-free. When operational in 2022 she will be
| the world's largest, active, clean ocean-going cargo vessel.
| She will elevate the existing sail cargo movement to a new
| level while bringing attention to the harmful and pollutive
| practices of the global shipping industry.
|
| (I have no idea if it's practical, but it's _wonderfully
| romantic_ and I love it!)
| exolymph wrote:
| Recently: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27128257
| thinkingkong wrote:
| There are types of sails or wind power that have been
| investigated to reduce carbon output / efficiency of tankers but
| they never seem to have been deployed at scale in any sense.
| Basically a kite-surfing tanker.
|
| It seems like until we get tiny compact fusion energy we'll
| always end up running off the cheapest oil products, as they make
| the most sense economically. Without any actual incentive to
| switch, not a single shipping company will.
| AtlasBarfed wrote:
| LFTR: it's almost everything you want from fusion but can do
| now.
|
| Scales down for the size No meltdown/overload No proliferation
| risk
|
| But... artificial fuels are probably the (at least) carbon
| neutral path forward for shipping and aviation.
| llsf wrote:
| Maybe we could revisit what SkySails started
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SkySails
| saadalem wrote:
| Hundredrabbits are traveling on a sailor ship while working on
| OSS and many projects, they are also providing many informations
| about their 1982 boat and about sailing and how they are
| providing electricity from solar power etc..
|
| https://100r.co/site/sailing.html
| canadianfella wrote:
| What is a sailor ship?
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