[HN Gopher] Introverts can make great leaders (2018)
___________________________________________________________________
Introverts can make great leaders (2018)
Author : Anon84
Score : 138 points
Date : 2021-05-16 11:22 UTC (11 hours ago)
(HTM) web link (thehustle.co)
(TXT) w3m dump (thehustle.co)
| spaetzleesser wrote:
| Two thoughts:
|
| * Let's not confuse "introvert" with "shy" or "socially awkward".
| There are plenty of introverts that can turn it on when needed.
| It may not be their favorite thing but they can do it and often
| pretty well. These people will have no problem in leadership. And
| there are others that are either too shy or socially awkward that
| won't do well.
|
| * In the end it's about social skills. There are plenty of
| extroverts that will never make it in leadership because they
| lack the skills.
| dd36 wrote:
| OT the most introverted people I know are also the most near-
| sighted. It got me to wondering if introversion is a protection
| in nature for near-sightedness.
| NazakiAid wrote:
| I would have throught this would be the case because introverts
| are more likely not needing to look far due to staying indoors
| most the time (and in my case, staring at monitors). Which
| means the eyes won't be getting "exercised" to look far.
| gryn wrote:
| more likely the opposite, nearsightedness is related to a lack
| of exposure of the eye to sunlight during childhood.
|
| introverted people are more likely to spend time indoor (away
| from the UV of sunlight) which lead to your observed
| correlation.
| dd36 wrote:
| What? None of the near-sighted people in my family spent more
| than normal time indoors. Likely the opposite. We were always
| outside.
| fpoling wrote:
| I have high myopia and I had plenty of outdoor time in my
| childhood on par or even higher than my buddies who did not
| developed myopia.
|
| Less anecdotal evidence is prevalence of myopia in south-east
| Asia where people have more exposure to bright sun than in
| Europe.
|
| My pet hypothesis about myopia is exposure to high glycemic
| food like white rice or white bread that simulate growth just
| little bit too much that is enough to develop the eye few
| microns too big and cause myopia. But that hypothesis also
| has a lot of issues.
| JrProgrammer wrote:
| Do you have any sources on this?
| sndean wrote:
| Not sure about the correlation with being introverted, but
| the sunlight-nearsightedness correlation is pretty well
| established [0], specifically light in the near ultraviolet
| range [1].
|
| There was a really interesting article on HN years ago
| about this, but I can't find it. The researchers suggested
| this effect was a good reason to mandate outdoor recess for
| children during the school day - maybe in Australia?
|
| [0] https://insights.osu.edu/health/myopia
|
| [1] https://www.thelancet.com/journals/ebiom/article/PIIS23
| 52-39...
| [deleted]
| neonological wrote:
| I had a friend call him self a metrovert.
|
| A metrovert is someone who derives energy from socializing but
| also derives energy from being alone. I think I would be a
| metrovert.
|
| Tons and tons of these types of people exist. I'm curious as to
| why people decided to categorize everyone into just introverts
| and extroverts.
| musingsole wrote:
| People are different, but thinking you're both an extrovert
| _and_ an introvert...means you 're closer to neither.
| neonological wrote:
| Says who? You just made that up.
|
| A person who gains energy from social situations and from
| being alone fits the technical definition of both introvert
| and extrovert. This is the rational consequence and deduction
| from the English definitions of the words introvert and
| extrovert.
|
| The definition literally permits people to possess both
| qualities at the same time. Yet people choose to irrationally
| pursue this either/or mentality that both qualities exist on
| a single spectrum.
|
| So logically what you said makes zero sense. That means your
| illogical. Being illogical and irrational is completely
| independent of introversion or extroversion.
| Shraal wrote:
| Count me in! When is our next meeting? Joke aside, I also don't
| like this binary distinction because I find myself on both
| sides of the scale. Reading the comments here makes me think
| that there's probably a lot of unnecessary tribalism (we vs
| them), confirmation bias and overgeneralization that makes
| discussing this topic harder than it already is.
| jinkyu wrote:
| when you work at the NSA, the extroverts look at your shoes when
| they talk to you.
| xyzelement wrote:
| Introverts can make good leaders but too often these "introverts
| are great" articles are pointed to by those who just want an
| excuse for their poor social skills and lack of impact.
|
| Case in point, my last boss was a visible, forceful woman who
| emphasized relationship building. It took me a year to learn she
| actually is heavily introverted and spends her weekends not
| talking to anyone. She was an effective introverted leader but
| she was also just an effective leader, period. It wouldn't occur
| to her to share this article.
|
| On the other hand, plentny of low impact people believe they have
| great ideas but they aren't able to articulate them to get any
| traction or even feedback. Rather than learning how to handle
| these situations, they chalk up their ineptitude to introversion.
| That's the kind of people I find takes comfort in these articles.
| plutonorm wrote:
| This reeks of "Extrovert privilege"
| blablabla123 wrote:
| > Case in point, my last boss was a visible, forceful woman who
| emphasized relationship building. It took me a year to learn
| she actually is heavily introverted and spends her weekends not
| talking to anyone. She was an effective introverted leader but
| she was also just an effective leader, period. It wouldn't
| occur to her to share this article.
|
| Maybe if workplaces would be more acceptable of introverts she
| wouldn't have to spend the whole weekend recharging. Indeed
| this is not the first article making the case for introverts
| and it is obvious that introverts can act like extroverts and
| vice-versa. But there is a price to pay, e.g. needing some
| recharge time.
|
| > On the other hand, plentny of low impact people believe they
| have great ideas but they aren't able to articulate them to get
| any traction or even feedback.
|
| Plenty of high impact people just spill out their ideas and let
| other people spend many iterations to proof that those are bad
| ideas. Many introverts come up with excellent ideas and let
| them speak for themselves.
|
| Apart from that one shouldn't forget why people have been hired
| in the first place. So they bring something to the table and
| not everything was on the job description or is common
| knowledge. I wish there was more appreciation for different
| approaches, also given that almost half of the population is
| considered introverted.
| A4ET8a8uTh0 wrote:
| One of my former managers ( very much an extrovert ),
| summarized it to me thusly as he tried to show me his way:
|
| "If you turn out to be right, that is great. If not, that is
| ok too. But it is vital that you remain calm and confident
| irregardless."
|
| And the most fucking annoying thing about his approach is
| that it works.
| louthy wrote:
| > irregardless
|
| Did he really use this non-word?
| macintux wrote:
| It's been used for over a century; I think it's time to
| accept that it's a word.
| A4ET8a8uTh0 wrote:
| Yep. With full conviction of a person that he will not be
| corrected by his underlings.
| void_mint wrote:
| Probably because his approach has nothing to do with
| introvert vs. extrovert, and is just normal baseline
| professionalism.
| A4ET8a8uTh0 wrote:
| I very much disagree. I am not sure if it is a question
| of culture, nurture or what, but when I do mess up, I
| acknowledge the mess up, ask for forgiveness and move on.
| Up until that point, it certainly would not occur to me
| to either ignore it or just keep pressing in the wrong
| direction despite being objectively wrong.
|
| I would not call it professionalism at all.
| void_mint wrote:
| Unless you did not correctly quote the advice, nothing
| that you said in this post invalidates the previous
| advice. Being wrong _is okay_, but if you're suggesting
| something, you should remain calm and be confident your
| suggestion is in line with your current understanding of
| a problem space. If wrong, continue to remain calm,
| acknowledge, apologize and move on. Being wrong shouldn't
| shake your confidence (again, even if you're an
| introvert).
| A4ET8a8uTh0 wrote:
| I think I am willing to agree with your interpretation of
| the quote. It may have not been a good example since I
| can't really go into more details here.
|
| I do have a philosophical objection though. Unlike Dr.
| House, I do not possess merely theoretical capacity for
| being wrong. I recognize I can be wrong and I recognize
| that me being wrong has real world consequences that I
| need to consider.
|
| It is not about shaking my confidence. It is about
| whether it is possible I am wrong in this particular
| case. Confidence is pointless here since the consequences
| involved will not be BSed away.
| void_mint wrote:
| > I think I am willing to agree with your interpretation
| of the quote. It may have not been a good example since I
| can't really go into more details here.
|
| All good. I totally accept that that individual quote did
| not do justice to the situation you were trying to
| convey. I am not trying to be aggressive.
|
| > I do have a philosophical objection though. Unlike Dr.
| House, I do not possess merely theoretical capacity for
| being wrong. I recognize I can be wrong and I recognize
| that me being wrong has real world consequences that I
| need to consider.
|
| I am an overwhelming extrovert. I believe that your gripe
| is less about inro vs. extro, and much much more about
| culture. I have worked in environments where being wrong
| but trying hard is applauded, and I have worked in
| environments where being wrong (regardless of how or why)
| is shamed. The latter feels bad to me, as it sounds like
| it would you.
|
| > It is not about shaking my confidence. It is about
| whether it is possible I am wrong in this particular
| case. Confidence is pointless here since the consequences
| involved will not be BSed away.
|
| I totally agree with you. If getting something wrong will
| cause any kind of problem (beyond just, "lets fix it and
| keep going"), it's a culture problem and rightly will
| impact your confidence.
|
| I would say, your boss was probably a moron, but not
| necessarily because they were an extrovert.
| A4ET8a8uTh0 wrote:
| >> but not necessarily because they were an extrovert.
|
| I had to think about it, but I think I agree. Him being
| an extrovert had little to do with this particular
| approach. I just associated it with him, because, well,
| he was hard to miss.
|
| Thank you. That was an interesting conversation:>
| sidlls wrote:
| I find the kind of generalization and meanness in your comment
| is counterproductive: and also commonly trotted out when
| justifying the extroversion dominance in organizations.
|
| Also: social anxiety and shyness are very real problems that
| can easily be induced by the shame, ridicule, and lack of
| acceptance that introversion often is accompanied by. The fact
| that these things are often equated with "socially
| inept/incompetent" is extremely problematic.
| xyzelement wrote:
| No offense but it sounds like you are more interested in
| being offended than comprehension and evolution.
|
| My whole point is that social skills and interaction are just
| that - skills. You can invest in them if you are introverted
| or even if you have some social anxiety (as, I suspect, I
| do.)
|
| If someone instead insists that there's nothing for them to
| learn, that their "badness" with people is a badge of honor
| in some way, then they just justify being bad at the expense
| of people around them.
|
| But, I guess we can just ignore that, forego the opportunity
| to improve, because you find it problematic :)
| sidlls wrote:
| You're the one suddenly bringing up an unwillingness to
| learn.
|
| It's quite telling, too, as the language you used suggests
| you don't view these things as medical conditions or
| disabilities, but instead personal failings to overcome.
|
| Also, pointing out meanness in a comment isn't the same as
| being offended: it's quite presumptuous really.
| watwut wrote:
| Anxiety and shyness is not the same as introversion.
| Extroverts have as much anxiety and are shy too. Introverts
| give public speaches or perform publically.
|
| Extroverts can be also socially inept.
| NikolaNovak wrote:
| Different people have wildly different definition of introvert
| vs extrovert as well.
|
| I find that "gets energy from interaction vs lose energy from
| interaction" is more productive than "shy vs loud".
|
| I was visibly shy for first two decades of my life; I look (and
| am) a "people person" for the last two decades and most recent
| friends/colleagues wouldn't know I'm an introvert; and I'm
| doing reasonably well in people-manager role. But whereas after
| a hard day my sister wants to go out and party and this will
| rejuvenate her, after a hard day I want... nay, _need_ , some
| "me time" - alone with book or computer or tv or music to
| recharge. I'm stereotypically the first person to leave a party
| of my best friends - I love them, I love our time together, but
| at some point I had enough input and need to depart.
|
| My point is: I think "introvert" is a defining characteristic
| of me; but "have people skills" is just that - skills. I don't
| think I'll ever _change_ whether I gain or lose energy from
| social interactions; that seems a pretty built-in aspect of my
| personality. But I can and did tremendously change how I
| actually interact with people - it may come easy to some,
| harder to others, and seemingly impossible to yet others, but
| it _is_ in principle a learnable, acquirable skill.
|
| So, "6% of Business executives think introverts have people
| skills needed" makes me think this is an accidentally tautology
| - I'm pretty sure they mentally have _defined_ "introverts" as
| "those with poor people skills", and that's not I think the
| most accurate definition.
| galangalalgol wrote:
| My wife and I are both introverted, but people often don't
| believe that, especially with her. But after a party, or an
| event we are both exhausted. For me at least I think it comes
| from the effort I have to use to model the mental state of
| others. It does not come naturally.
| Biologist123 wrote:
| Fascinating insight.
| wiz21c wrote:
| I understand what you say 5/5. I spend a lot of energy
| trying my best to understand others, to go beyond their
| facade, to ask about thing I disagree with, etc. Also, I
| have hard times when people judge or mock me (even if done
| in friendly way), etc. I hardly pass over it so, again,
| takes some energy.
| neonological wrote:
| It's more complicated then introversion or extroversion.
| You are describing high empathy and fear of not pleasing
| others.
|
| You act a certain way to cater to other people and possibly
| spend way too much energy on it, hence the exhaustion.
|
| Most people aren't constantly modelling the mental state of
| others. You don't need to be in a constant state of
| anticipating the emotions of the other party when talking
| to them.
|
| Just talk. Don't spend too many cycles overly concerned
| about what others think.
| galangalalgol wrote:
| I tend to be rude, insensitive, or even offensive if I
| don't run a background process to prevent it. I don't
| want to hurt people's feelings, it just happens because I
| think differently, so my instinctual model for reasonable
| speech is different too. Those things I say wouldn't
| offend _me_ for instance. After people get to know me and
| understand I can mostly turn it off and they will
| forgive. Strangers, or clients, I keep it running.
| danenania wrote:
| I think the ideal is likely some middle ground between no
| filter whatsoever and trying to meticulously model the
| mental states of others, which definitely does sound
| exhausting.
|
| Rather than focus so much on others, it may work better
| to focus on making your _own_ mental state relaxed,
| amused, lighthearted, etc. and then try to include others
| in that without worrying much about _their_ states of
| mind. A lot of what attracts people socially is simply
| maintaining the 'right' mood--one that is enjoyable and
| accessible to others. The details of what someone says or
| does are less important.
|
| You might notice that many life-of-the-party types aren't
| necessarily that empathetic or "good listeners" or
| whatever when you talk to them. These things can help,
| but aren't necessary or sufficient to make people
| generally enjoy being around someone. Much more important
| is simply that the person is visibly, genuinely having a
| good time, and is generating that sense of well-being for
| themselves rather than relying on others to supply it for
| them.
| isoskeles wrote:
| I've had similar experiences in my own career. People skills
| are just that, skills which can be practiced.
|
| As an aside, your last paragraph made me think of a funny
| edge-case, the extrovert with poor people skills. This might
| look like a person who seeks out social interactions and may
| try to start or force a conversation without knowing when to
| end it or whether the other participant is enjoying it or
| feels like they're being held hostage.
| NikolaNovak wrote:
| Sooo.... Will Farrel? 0:->
| dontbeabill wrote:
| maybe they want to avoid dealing with folks with aggressive
| attitudes like yours, and find life more pleasant dealing with
| more rational, level headed people or no one.
| A4ET8a8uTh0 wrote:
| I think you are onto something here. On the other hand, current
| breed of leadership is primarily full of type A, highly
| visible, forceful personalities that are, at best, difficult to
| ignore, but hard to take seriously.
|
| But I do like your point about how introversion is used an odd
| excuse. One of the first videos on the subject in one of my MBA
| classes was on that ( Susan Cain,
| https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c0KYU2j0TM4 ).
| JI00912 wrote:
| I think we just witnessed a murder.
| kodah wrote:
| Is there any _actual_ correlation between low social skills and
| introversion or is this just something people like to whack
| introverted people over the head with?
|
| In my own experience I've witnessed people, in general, who
| struggle to communicate or communicate effectively. I've also
| witnessed people who over communicate or dominate communication
| and are equally destructive. There's also something else I've
| noticed, which is that leaders are often perceived as effective
| when they're leading people whom their leadership style is
| compatible with.
| Viliam1234 wrote:
| I would expect that one develops skills mostly by practicing,
| and extraverts typically get more practice with social
| interaction, simply because that is how they enjoy spending
| their free time.
|
| On the other hand, introverts may compensate e.g. by reading
| literature on social skills, or spend more time reflecting on
| what happened; and unless they are isolated, after a few
| decades they also get lot of experience. While extraverts may
| get stuck in the "high-school style of human interaction" and
| have difficulty move forward.
|
| Overall, I would guess that an average extravert will be much
| better than average introvert e.g. at small talk. But if you
| need a specialist, e.g. a therapist, the chances are more
| balanced, because for either it requires going beyond just
| following their instinct. But this is all just a guess.
|
| > There's also something else I've noticed, which is that
| leaders are often perceived as effective when they're leading
| people whom their leadership style is compatible with.
|
| Yep. But imagine that you have ten people in a room, five
| extraverted and five introverted. The extraverts will create
| a group in the middle of the room, and introverts will sit
| alone near the corners. If you randomly pick a leader, you
| will probably tell them to lead the group in the middle of
| the room -- and that is a task better suited to an extravert.
| neonological wrote:
| Yes logically there should be. The more skilled you are at
| something in general the less energy you expend in it. This
| includes socializing.
|
| Without data it can't be truly known. But such data is likely
| garbage as it's very hard to quantify good social skills.
|
| However if you remain impartial the intuition and logic is
| inescapable.
|
| The less skilled you are at socializing the more energy you
| spend on deploying that skill. This means a good portion of
| introverts are introverted because they are bad at
| socializing.
|
| I mean if you think about it what I said is utterly and
| completely obvious. It's this oversupply of "the benefites of
| being an introvert" articles that is making people think
| otherwise.
|
| This stuff is BS science. The introvert extrovert
| classification is an arbitrary division. Doing science on
| this division is like doing an experiment on "do people with
| long hair make better leaders?"
| plutonorm wrote:
| Perhaps, but only because the introverts have been beaten
| over the head repeatedly by the extrovert dominated culture.
| A socially intelligent introvert looks like a councillor,
| adept at understanding people in one on one situations, able
| to bring out the best in people.
| groby_b wrote:
| > There's also something else I've noticed, which is that
| leaders are often perceived as effective when they're leading
| people whom their leadership style is compatible with.
|
| Puts the finger right on the important spot. People "get" you
| more if you relate to them in a familiar way.
|
| Which means that being an effective leader requires stuffing
| your "but I'm an X" ideas, and adapting to the people you're
| leading. (Step 2 is teaching them to adapt as well - it's not
| about permanently disguising yourself)
| plutonorm wrote:
| You are still confusing effective leadership with extroversion.
| One on one relationship building is something that introverts
| excel at.
| xyzelement wrote:
| I am? I am citing a deep introvert who richly invested in
| developing that skill.
|
| You make it sound like introversion is a disability rather
| than a default orientation.
| void_mint wrote:
| > One on one relationship building is something that
| introverts excel at
|
| But...didn't you also just do the same thing?
|
| People are good at things they try to be good at. Being an
| introvert has nothing to do with that, nor does extroversion.
| Meaning, people that prioritize interpersonal skill and
| relationship building have the potential to become good
| leaders, regardless of their particular alignment.
| weasel_words wrote:
| Perhaps...but then you've mis-categorized the person as an
| introvert when they are actually socially awkward or, as you
| say, they have: "...poor social skills and lack of impact."
|
| There are both introverts and extroverts who have "poor social
| skills and lack of impact".
|
| Noisy extroverts who don't know when to stop talking is one
| example off the top of my head.
| hn_throwaway_99 wrote:
| Introverts _can_ make good leaders, but it can be difficult.
|
| Note I'm using what I feel is the most common definition of
| introversion/extroversion even if it is somewhat of a "pop"
| psychology definition, i.e. introverts recharge by quiet time
| alone, extroverts by being around others.
|
| When you are a leader, a huge part of your job is being around
| other people _a lot_ , and communicating with them, often times
| having difficult conversations. I'm introverted, I think I have
| fairly good (or at least OK) social skills and I'm emotionally
| introspective, I was an engineering director and I think I was
| pretty good at it. However, it left me feeling completely
| exhausted. Every day I would come home and basically crash
| because I was spending a huge portion of my day talking to
| people. It negatively affected my relationship because it was
| hard for me to be available to my partner when I was so tired
| from interacting with other people all day.
|
| Contrast this with an extrovert, who actually gets _energized_
| by all of those daily interactions. It 's very difficult to
| compete with that behavioral mindset in a job where a majority
| of work is person-to-person interactions.
|
| Not saying my experience is the same across all introverts,
| just expressing my frustration at a lot of these "introverts
| have super powers!" type articles that have an underlying
| message that some jobs (i.e. "leaders") are intrinsically more
| valuable than others.
| acosmism wrote:
| article has sergey as cofounder of yahoo lol
| [deleted]
| JesseMReeves wrote:
| Angela Merkel and Obama are introverts.. Bolsonaro, Johnson and
| Donald Trump extroverts. Looking at the past year that's 'nuff
| said.
|
| It seems some countries have a preference for extroverts, and
| confuse loudness and random action taking with ability. Fooled by
| charisma - especially Western nations seem to continuously fall
| into this trap.
| clacx wrote:
| Merkel ruined the political landscape in Germany (protest
| voters going green or far right) and is indirectly and partly
| responsible for Brexit.
|
| Housing prices skyrocket and people are poorer in general.
|
| The Corona policy is chaotic and Germany is behind in
| vaccinations.
|
| I'm not sure this is a great record.
| JesseMReeves wrote:
| The word "Merkel" seems to act as a trigger for you. I can
| assume quite well where you are getting your political
| information.
|
| Wondering how you evaluate the "track record" of the
| "extrovert" people I mentioned.
| drran wrote:
| I bet that <<frau Ribentrop>> will work for Gasprom, like
| her patron. Or, maybe, she already does that.
| [deleted]
| 11thEarlOfMar wrote:
| Introverts need to develop a different style of leadership than
| extroverts. They need their own playing field.
|
| I identify as introvert, and I was in a leadership role. My style
| was to develop the company strategy, then discuss it with a few
| select executives who I knew to be direct, honest, rational and
| usually right. Use their input to iterate and refine and then
| disseminate the strategy to the entire company.
|
| I ensured that everyone in the company understood the strategy
| and understood their role in executing it. I.e., rather than an
| emotional plea to 'follow me because I'm persuasive', it was
| 'follow me because you can see the plan and your role in it and
| if you don't buy in, I am open to hear and assimilate your
| thinking.'
|
| Perhaps a succinct description would be: An Extroverted leader
| keeps focus on themselves. An Introverted leader keeps the focus
| on the plan.
| watwut wrote:
| Wasnt it more of follow me because I am boss basically? You
| said you had small circle of people you listened to and the
| rest was informed about plan and their place in it.
| username90 wrote:
| My theory is that extroverts simply rely more on biases to
| crudely categorise people. Treating people like individuals and
| learning about each of them is strenuous, which would explain why
| introverts gets tired from socializing while extroverted people
| don't.
| amelius wrote:
| So instead of saying introvert/extravert perhaps we should say
| sincere/insincere?
| username90 wrote:
| It just means that they spend less effort getting to know
| you. So instead of knowing a lot about few people they know a
| little about many people. It isn't inherently better or
| worse, just different.
| n4bz0r wrote:
| I'd rather suggest refraining from using both terms. Why do
| people feel the urge to make the distinction in the first
| place?
| mlac wrote:
| Extraverts gain energy from getting to know people. I don't
| think they're lazy or don't care about people, but they truly
| get energy from talking and being around others. That's how
| they recharge.
|
| Introverts expend energy doing the same thing. A happy hour can
| be exhausting, but enjoyable getting to talk to people.
|
| I'm... somewhere in between but operate in the extremes. I can
| be recharged from a party and being in good company or I can be
| recharged by staying inside all weekend and being alone. But
| it's not like both recharge me all the time, and I haven't
| figured out how to predict what will be needed far in the
| future.
|
| My weekend needs depend on my week I guess and how much I have
| been or will be interacting or traveling. I generally like
| people though. If I didn't like people or didn't want to get to
| know them, I can't see how being an extrovert and around people
| would be a energizing.
| username90 wrote:
| Basically everyone gets energy from being around good company
| regardless if you are introverted or extroverted. Just that
| if you spend more than you gain from it then it feels as if
| you lose energy. However if an introverted person is around
| people they are comfortable with and don't have to spend
| effort to get to know then they too go positive just as you
| described here.
|
| > I don't think they're lazy or don't care about people
|
| Nobody said that, they just invest less doesn't mean that
| they are fundamentally different.
| [deleted]
| thunkshift1 wrote:
| This is one of those HN posts made to generate clicks for the
| media company and their articles. I think that bane of this forum
| and this practice should not be encouraged.
| slver wrote:
| Today in baseless generalizations...
| spaetzleesser wrote:
| Very true. It's sad that people love to push people into rigid
| categories that are supposed to explain things.
| anovikov wrote:
| Here is my take: today business is frequently about doing
| something that brings no benefit to the people at all (just take
| these 'startups' who exploit nothing but people's gullibility
| and/or addiction), that should give introverts an edge, because
| we gradually grow to be ignorant of other people's feelings for
| our poor ability to read other's emotional reactions in
| everyday's life. Because of this natural everyday feedback loop
| being weaker, we are less impacted by conscience, so in the one-
| sided, cynical online business world of today, we get an edge
| over others.
| dartharva wrote:
| This article is just another example of clickbaity slander as
| they come.
|
| > Myth #2: Introverts don't have the "people skills" to lead
|
| > Myth #3: Introverts are bad communicators
|
| The explanations given for these "myths" in the article are not
| reasonable enough. Anyway, these are not myths, they are
| observable and explicable patterns. Just like nearly every other
| skill, communication and people skills require practice.
| Introverts are much less likely to have enough practice for
| leadership-worthy people skills than extroverts, especially if
| they don't bother pushing their limits for it.
| JesseMReeves wrote:
| What if the introvert vs. extrovert categorization is a concept
| invented by so-called "extroverts", to pad their egos?
|
| It's a concept that places randomly, emotionally acting people on
| the same level as people who try to think rationally before
| acting and prefer quietly educating themselves over socializing,
| as "they are just different personality types". It's a concept
| putting people that spend all their evenings in bars drinking on
| the same level as those they perceive as "introvert bookworms".
| They don't have to admit that the quiet wallflower who doesn't
| seem to be interested in participating in their primate dominance
| games is just more intelligent, careful and thoughtful than them.
| It's thus a quite useful idea for people who don't do a lot of
| non-social activities.
|
| It even gives those "extroverts" an excuse to pathologize and
| patronize "introverts", just as they do during other social
| settings. Even the article has a list of "coping" strategies at
| the end, such as "Balance your time: For every 1-hour meeting,
| make sure to plan at least 30 minutes to yourself." - as if
| thinking before speaking makes you mentally ill and require
| special treatment.
| Buldak wrote:
| This is a strange suggestion to me because, if anything, I tend
| to find the opposite. That is, introversion has a lot of
| positive connotations (introverts are thoughtful, sensitive;
| extroverts are vapid, etc.), and people are generally more
| eager to describe themselves as introverts than extroverts.
| stingraycharles wrote:
| This seems like a heavily polarizing and flamebatey comment.
| It's not an us-against-them thing, and I would even argue that
| introvert vs extrovert is much less binary than your comment
| suggests.
| JesseMReeves wrote:
| Deeply sorry if I could not make myself clear to you, thanks
| for showing me with a downvote. What I'm trying to do is
| dissolve these binary categories and find another explanation
| for their presence in public discourse.
| tnzm wrote:
| I agree with your overall sentiment but it _is_ a
| polarizing comment and it does not propose an alternative.
| If the group with worse values is better at normalizing
| their values, no progress is made.
| xiphias2 wrote:
| In the past extroverts had a huge advantage, as building a
| network of people required going out of the house. With the
| adoption of internet and the speed of technology, talking to
| people all the time can be a disadvantage/waste of time compared
| to just learning from the internet and finding people there.
| petra wrote:
| Online connections are good for something, mostly learning.
|
| But offline is much better for creating relationships and
| trust, and for politics.
|
| So most of the advantage is still left for extroverts.
| xiphias2 wrote:
| Sure, politics is still important, but not as crucial as
| before. Elon Musk spent most of his young life reading
| technical books in the library and learning programming,
| while people who get into politics/banking are doing sports
| and lots of social events / social clubs.
| watwut wrote:
| He is not programmer. He is manager and the he is at most
| successful when he charms people. His whole thing is making
| other people do stuff rather then do stuff.
| petra wrote:
| I don't think Elon Musk is relevant, if we're talking about
| regular employees trying to advance their careers.
| xiphias2 wrote:
| He is in the article as an example, the article is not
| about regular employees, but leaders.
| petra wrote:
| To become a leader one usually has to start as an
| employee and advance. Unless one starts as entrepreneur.
| marcinzm wrote:
| Building a network that has any sort of stickiness still
| require connecting with people one-on-one. And forming a
| connection that triggers an empathy/trust response still
| requires socializing with people. And in my experience Zoom can
| be even more draining to talk to people on than an in person
| meeting.
| dartharva wrote:
| But learning is just one dimension of your life. Networking and
| building relationships is crucial for nearly all other
| important things, both personal and professional.
| k__ wrote:
| I always ask myself how high the number of people is that are in
| leadership position just because of their charisma.
| alexpetralia wrote:
| It is for the most part a necessary but not sufficient
| condition.
| tolbish wrote:
| I don't think that's true. Lisa Su is a fantastic CEO but
| doesn't strike me as incredibly charismatic. That said, maybe
| it's a good thing...I'm not sure if semiconductors is the
| best industry for extroverts.
| varispeed wrote:
| More likely because they have money and people who work for
| them don't. "Charisma" comes from projecting power - some
| people are backed up by money which gives them required
| confidence and other people can fake the feeling of having such
| backup. It comes down how great safety net given person has. If
| they know they can do anything, and they can pay their way even
| out of murder, then they will have the so called "charisma".
| hyko wrote:
| A lot? Very hard to be a great leader without it, so it
| inevitably comes with a large halo effect.
| emmap21 wrote:
| I agree - at least from my a bag of data points I have.
| Unfortunately, the common perception is extroverts. This happens
| when people just read news and consume media without real
| experience.
| roenxi wrote:
| It lists Sergey Brin as a Yahoo co-counder. I question their
| research.
|
| And most people, I think, when they talk about extroverts just
| mean people who talk a lot. I don't see how anyone could identify
| an introvert (or an extrovert) from a conversation in a business
| setting.
|
| Promotions in business are all about politics. Politics can
| happen with a couple of well placed whispers and a short speech
| if someone has mastered that game.
|
| Effectiveness in business is all about we-don't-quite-know-what,
| so not much to talk about there.
| SMAAART wrote:
| > I don't see how anyone could identify an introvert (or an
| extrovert) from a conversation in a business setting.
|
| Given a long enough conversation, I can most of the time.
|
| Let's also keep in mind the true meaning of Introverts (and
| extraverts) https://carlkingdom.com/10-myths-about-introverts
| and not the common misunderstood concepts of shy/anxiety
| symptoms.
| karaterobot wrote:
| > Given a long enough conversation, I can most of the time.
|
| I also feel like I can diagnose people, but most of the time
| I have no empirical evidence that I'm right. How do you get
| that evidence in your case?
| corobo wrote:
| Given a long enough conversation the introvert finds an
| excuse to leave haha
| Graffur wrote:
| Thanks for posting but the definitions of introvert and
| extrovert have been abused so much at this stage. The
| pandemic made it worse. I have heard people claim introverts
| are happy with lockdowns and don't want to go back to the
| office.
| danaris wrote:
| I mean...I am an introvert, living with two other
| introverts, and we're all thrilled with work-from-home, and
| don't particularly want to go back to the office. Some of
| this is, indeed, because of our introversion, and what that
| means for regular interactions in an office setting. Some
| of it is for other practical reasons.
|
| But I wouldn't be so arrogant as to attempt to generalize
| from even a small handful of examples to an entire
| population.
| sharken wrote:
| If you follow the notion that extroverts talk a lot, then
| by definition an introvert is the opposite.
|
| My own interpretation is that introverts focus on getting
| things done, which is just a lot easier to do without
| distractions, e.g. away from the office.
|
| Also, for me the #3 trait of a good leader is the most
| important, you have to display technical and professional
| expertise.
|
| When your work is of a technical nature, it doesn't inspire
| confidence in your leader if they have no technical
| knowledge.
| [deleted]
| 8fGTBjZxBcHq wrote:
| If introverts focus on getting things done what do
| extroverts do in your eyes? Just hang out?
|
| There's a book about this called Quiet, I it. It's an
| overview of the like social history of the concepts of
| intro- and extroversion, and also research about these
| traits. The difference seems to be more about stimulation
| and arousal than like social preferences or anything to
| do with work.
|
| Introverts get more aroused from the same stimulus than
| extroverts do. This manifests in a bunch of different
| ways. The social ones are most obvious because human
| connection is the most common source of intense stimulus
| in human lives.
|
| But for example extroverts are more likely to be
| "adrenaline junkies" because they need more stimulus to
| feel the same degree of excitement. This has nothing to
| do at all with social stuff or talking or "getting things
| done" it's just a thing. There are dozens or hundreds of
| correlations like this.
|
| The interpersonal and social differences are the most
| obvious effects, but they aren't at the core of what
| these things are.
| neonological wrote:
| I feel a lot of introverts enjoy patting themselves on
| the back. Case in point you found a book called quiet. Is
| there a book on the other side of the spectrum called
| "loud"?
| NikolaNovak wrote:
| >>"My own interpretation is that introverts focus on
| getting things done,"
|
| I think there's an implicit unstated assumption here of
| what "getting things done" means.
|
| When I was a "individual contributor" / "Subject matter
| expert" for most of my career, that indeed may have meant
| sitting down alone and coding / configuring / etc.
|
| In a leadership role now, "getting things done" for my
| role is now 100% about engaging with other people,
| supporting them, understanding them, motivating them,
| guiding them (in as subtle and non-invasive and stealth
| method as manageable:). This has been a big hurdle /
| growth opportunity for me as an introvert, but also gave
| me a ton of new perspectives I haven't had first two
| decades of my work.
| matwood wrote:
| I don't need to be an expert in security to listen to my
| security person explain an issue that needs to be fixed.
| It does make it easier to empathize because I've been in
| the code trenches before, but it's certainly not required
| for a good leader.
|
| A good leader has many traits, and almost all of them
| start with communication.
|
| Like technology, leadership can also be learned. The
| downside of learning good leadership, is then you see all
| the bad leadership that stands out. For example, blaming
| someone else or otherwise not taking ownership of a
| mistake is bad at any level, but really the sign of a
| terrible leader.
| renatello wrote:
| They put a photo of Larry Page...
| nob0dyasked wrote:
| And Steve Jobs as an example of extrovert. Haha, keep going
| guys, great work!
| op03 wrote:
| Rather than the word politics a better word would be networks.
|
| Where you go in life depends on how many connections you create
| with people. And connecting with people requires energy.
| Introverts loose energy in the act of connecting while
| Extroverts gain energy. Therefore Extroverts will have an edge
| becoming a hub in a network or a connector of many networks.
|
| People who can lead have to be hubs or connectors. The
| Introvert that leads usually have a bunch of hubs and
| connectors that bow and bend to them, which happens only if
| they bring something very unique to the table.
| andi999 wrote:
| Well, Sergey probably used yahoo for some time, and he also
| founded an internet company, so let's say the article is 75%
| right.
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