[HN Gopher] System76 Launch Keyboard
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System76 Launch Keyboard
Author : lycopodiopsida
Score : 73 points
Date : 2021-05-14 13:58 UTC (9 hours ago)
(HTM) web link (system76.com)
(TXT) w3m dump (system76.com)
| colllectorof wrote:
| $285.00? Too expensive. It's not even a matter of whether I can
| afford something of this sort. I simply feel awful when I overpay
| for something that seems like a hipster product.
|
| Cut out the USB hub and seemingly useless RGB LEDs, bring down
| the price a bit and maybe I'll bite.
|
| I do appreciate features like N-key rollower and programmable
| firmware, as well as being assembled in US. Ambivalent about
| aluminum chassis. (I.e don't mind it, but wouldn't mind good
| plastic either.)
| dathinab wrote:
| Smallish non Chinese or Taiwanese company producing a
| mechanical keyboard with replaceable keys, QMK firmware, LED's
| and you are most times at a price around this.
|
| And for people which like a clean setup the building hub is
| grate.
|
| Just kinda pointless in case you have a laptop and a usb dock.
|
| EDIT: Also just guessing but no LED and no HUB would probably
| reduce the price by at most 50$. Most cost don't come from
| parts but producing in small amounts, development etc.
| hughrr wrote:
| Not sure about that. I've got a Durgod K320 TKL cherry MX red
| silent switches and bought mac keytops for it and it's half
| that price in the US.
|
| Also doesn't have some fucked up weird keyboard layout that
| makes it impossible to use another keyboard for 3 months if
| you have to change.
| errantspark wrote:
| I believe that's not "non chinese/taiwanese"?
| hughrr wrote:
| Sorry missed that. Had a long day :)
| bluGill wrote:
| The LEDs are less than a buck each in any form of quantity. A
| USB hub chip is cheap too, but I don't know what the right
| search term is. If it lowered the price by $50, it is only if
| you have a time machine and the ability to get them to not
| design it with that in the first place. (high speed USB does
| have some interesting requirements on board layouts - but I'm
| not enough off an engineer to know how bad those are in
| practice) In reality doing a new layout so there is no hub
| will cost more than just selling these and letting people
| configure the LEDs off.
| colllectorof wrote:
| _> Smallish non Chinese or Taiwanese company producing a
| mechanical keyboard with replaceable keys, QMK firmware,
| LED's and you are most times at a price around this._
|
| Like I said, LEDs seem pointless in this design.
|
| Also, I don't know of many US-based keyboard manufacturers,
| but I know of these guys:
|
| https://www.pckeyboard.com/
|
| Their 10-keyless version inspired by Model M is $120 dollars.
| Yes, it's pretty barebone, but that's exactly my point.
|
| Edit: https://www.wasdkeyboards.com
|
| Assembled in US, $170.
| gentleman11 wrote:
| It's amazing how much more expensive mechanical keyboards are
| now than when I bought my first one. There are $50 ones from
| China that break after 6 months, but most set you back $100-200
| now. The prices doubled from years ago for the same tech
| aidenn0 wrote:
| https://www.keychron.com/products/keychron-c1-wired-
| mechanic...
| gentleman11 wrote:
| Impressive prices
| amatecha wrote:
| People will pay $50+ for a single keycap, just to put the
| keyboard market into perspective. You may think this is too
| expensive, but for many people that's totally within an
| acceptable price range for a carefully-designed keyboard that
| matches what they're looking for.
| zamalek wrote:
| I'm a Kailh Box Jade user, I love them to bits, but I understand
| that I am _extremely niche._ It 's an interesting choice to sell
| them in prebuilts to a wide audience.
|
| There's also tons of rattle in both sound tests, possibly
| stabilizers or the springs. I strongly recommend lubing the
| springs if you do pick one of these up (4-5 hours of work).
| Lubing the Jade clickbar also changes the sounds from a "thack"
| to a "thock," without changing the tactile profile much (unlike
| regular tactile switches). Something to consider if you find that
| the Jade pitch is unpleasant.
| amatecha wrote:
| I like Jade and Navy .. so nice! I'd love to build a keyboard
| using either of those sometime. But I already have too many
| keyboards... (not that that's ever stopped me yet haha)
| threatofrain wrote:
| $285! Wow...
| radicaldreamer wrote:
| Still cheaper than most Topre boards...
| coldtea wrote:
| In the mechanical keyboard market, this price is not very
| special, even for keyboards with much less functionality (e.g.
| no USB 3.2 hub) and made of plastic.
|
| Heck, there are keycapp sets that sell for $100-$200 alone...
| threatofrain wrote:
| Mmm but then I compare it to this.
|
| https://www.pcgamingrace.com/products/glorious-gmmk-
| pro-75-b...
| Macha wrote:
| > SWITCHES
|
| > Not Included
|
| Not really comparing like for like here, you're comparing a
| base to build your own keyboard with a full keyboard at the
| listed price points.
| coldtea wrote:
| That's just the base plate alone for $100. No keycaps, no
| usb-c 3.2 hub, no accessories, and so on.
| puzzlingcaptcha wrote:
| 100$ is just the reservation price, which is deducted
| from the actual price at the time of ordering (which is
| $169)
| ncmncm wrote:
| I have an IKBC CD87 with Cherry keyswitches, no numeric pad, at
| well under half the price. It has been perfect. Metal frame,
| wired; no hub, no RGB LEDs.
|
| Just today I got my Sabrent HB-B7C3 USB-3 hub with 60W
| auxiliary wired power and 10 individually-switched ports (7 for
| data, 3 for charging). I don't need my keyboard to hub for me,
| nor to soothe me with LED action. Anyway, it hasn't enough
| ports.
| lsllc wrote:
| If you're using it on a Mac, then it'll save you $40 because
| it's got 2x USB-A ports! (Apple charge $19 for a USB-C to A).
| zzo38computer wrote:
| Is good you can customize, open-source, N-key rollover, and some
| other things, but it lacks some keys such as a number pad and
| some others, and doesn't seems to have PS/2 (I don't like USB),
| so I think that I will keep the keyboard that I currently have.
| (I also don't need full lighting like that)
| loloquwowndueo wrote:
| Why don't you like USB ?
| macleginn wrote:
| USB controllers are usually unable to provide more than 6-key
| rollover. Some keyboards offer two parallel cables for 12-key
| RO, but for real NKRO you basically need PS/2.
| open-paren wrote:
| Maybe that was the case in the past, but I don't think
| that's true anymore. Using this[0] page, it will register
| as many keys as I can mash without triggering a global
| hotkey.
|
| [0]: http://gadzikowski.com/nkeyrollover.html
| kstrauser wrote:
| I wouldn't say "usually" anymore. I was just able to mash
| 18 keys at once on my non-exotic keyboard and have them
| independently register. NKRO over USB isn't that rare now.
| abfan1127 wrote:
| I googled ps2 vs usb and found this -
| https://www.how2shout.com/technology/usb-vs-ps2-the-
| battle-b...
| frompdx wrote:
| This looks very nice. Most importantly, the profile isn't too
| high. I have a Keychron K6 and Vortexgear Pok3r. The Pok3r is
| about right even though it is a little taller than this keyboard.
| The K6 is far too tall to be comfortable. I think the price isn't
| for a programmable keyboard with swappable switches. PBT keycaps
| are also much better than ABS, another fault of the K6.
|
| These days I'm typing on a Kinesis Advantage2 for ergonomic
| reasons and I just can't see myself going back to a 60% or 65%
| keyboard. I hope System76 considers making an ergo with the
| features of this board in the future.
| dathinab wrote:
| Hm, I guess another option.
|
| I'm want to buy a mechanikal keyboard with QMK firmware (one
| which supports Tab Dance).
|
| I'm just not sure which.
|
| This one doesn't look bad, but then I'm more interested into
| something with a slightly more ergonomic key arrangement.
|
| I also thought about the Moonlander, but it's even more pricey
| then this one.
| eigenspace wrote:
| The sad reality currently is that if you want ergonomic design,
| mechanical switches, and customizable open source firmware,
| you're going to have to pay for it. The Moonlander is basically
| mid-tier in terms of price for a ergonomic mechanical keyboard.
|
| For what it's worth I'm very happy with my Moonlander, but I
| would have had a hard time convincing myself to bite the bullet
| and pay for the keyboard myself if my employer hadn't offered
| to cover the bill.
|
| I'm glad I did though, it made a big difference for my achey,
| unhappy hands.
| hughrr wrote:
| Durgod k320 is dirt cheap and supports QMK firmware. I haven't
| tried the firmware myself as the default is fine. I don't
| customise my stuff heavily so I don't have problems using other
| peoples computers occasionally.
| dathinab wrote:
| > I don't have problems using other peoples computers
| occasionally.
|
| I know what you mean ;=)
|
| But I really really want tab dance functionality, switched
| esc-caps and a few other things. And this things being
| configured in you keyboard instead of the OS make it just a
| lot less annoying.
| CarelessExpert wrote:
| Kinda curious how this compares to something like the Drop Alt,
| which seems to have the same feature set for $100 less:
|
| https://drop.com/buy/drop-alt-mechanical-keyboard
| sascha_sl wrote:
| The Alt is essentially dead for this price point, not that is
| was ever particularly good. The stabilizers in particular is
| something Drop never got right.
|
| The GMMK Pro is the current disruptive force on the market,
| alongside boards that are entering semi-permanent stock like
| the Novelkeys NK65 or the KBDfans KBD67 Lite.
|
| At this price point, and in a few other ways, this board from
| System76 is a joke. All the modifier keys are non-standard size
| (more in the pool of exotic), probably avoid putting any
| stabilizers on the thing. And that weird indent on the Tab key.
| This smells like designing the keyboard according to Keycap
| availability. Pretty sure you can find those exact caps on
| Aliexpress for 40-50 dollars.
|
| The keycap profile is a super weird choice. I love DSA and XDA
| (this is XDA), but they're not exactly a good experience out of
| the box for someone who has been working on Cherry or OEM.
|
| If you want a board with this layout, check out the GMMK Pro or
| ID80. The ID80 in particular requires that you buy parts
| yourself, but that's worth it just for the keycap availability.
| Both also support QMK.
| CarelessExpert wrote:
| > The Alt is essentially dead for this price point, not that
| is was ever particularly good. The stabilizers in particular
| is something Drop never got right.
|
| Yeah, I've certainly heard complaints about the stabs (not
| like you can't address that, but you certainly shouldn't have
| to).
|
| Maybe I should've rephrased my question as: What
| differentiates the System76 from its competitors (of which
| the Alt is an example).
|
| The space of:
|
| 1. TKL
|
| 2. QMK programmable
|
| 3. Aluminum block chassis
|
| 4. LED lighting
|
| Is pretty well-occupied and a $300 price point is right up
| there at the top of the segment. Add in all the downsides you
| mention and I just can't imagine buying this thing.
| sascha_sl wrote:
| If you add in Keycaps and Switches, $300 is pretty average
| to low end for an alu case board with a PCB that supports
| VIA/QMK. Most QMK capable boards are custom after all.
|
| BTW, TKL generally refers to boards that have a nav cluster
| and arrow keys in a layout similar to a full size. The
| boards discussed here are all 75% or 65% (difference being
| function row).
| jefurii wrote:
| For one, with System76 I can at least look at the damn thing
| without having to create a friggin' account.
| _jal wrote:
| Try
|
| https://drop.com/buy/drop-alt-mechanical-
| keyboard?mode=guest...
|
| It is stupid legacy from before they pivoted, not sure why
| they still do that.
| eigenspace wrote:
| This website won't even let me look at a high-res photo of the
| keyboard or see specs without signing up.
|
| What is wrong with these people?
| waffenklang wrote:
| No ISO, no money.
| hughrr wrote:
| This. That tiny little enter key is laughable once you've got
| used to iso layouts.
| aaomidi wrote:
| And I'm the opposite, ISO layouts suck for me.
| waffenklang wrote:
| And thats fine for you! But as a keyboard maker System76
| could have make it optional as a lot of other keyboard maker
| are able to do.
| chrisBob wrote:
| Yeah for split spacebars on a programmable keyboard!
|
| I currently use and love a Kinesis Freestyle Pro, and would
| consider this for my next keyboard. My favorite feature of the
| Kinesis board is that it is programmable and has a split
| spacebar. The split/ergo shape is okay, but I don't think I will
| ever get another keyboard that doesn't at least have a split
| spacebar and a way to program it.
|
| With half of my spacebar acting as fn and then arrows, backspace,
| delete and escape on the fn layer move my hands around MUCH less
| than on a normal keyboard.
| neonological wrote:
| I would pay $500 for this keyboard if I can put it in the
| dishwasher. Seriously that's my dream keyboard. Mechanical, high
| quality and washable in the dishwasher or just washable like a
| dish.
| procinct wrote:
| Probably doesn't quite solve your problem exactly but these
| days you can get hotswappable keyboards that allow you to take
| the full switch off without needing to get your soldering iron
| out. You won't be able to literally wash it but it should make
| cleaning a fair bit easier I imagine.
| tw04 wrote:
| Man if System76 is listening, or any keyboard manufacturer for
| that matter: please make a mechanical version of the ms ergonomic
| keyboard. All the other "ergonomics" seem to be trying too hard
| and have layouts that are so different from a standard keyboard
| as to be annoying. The MS one was perfect in every way, just
| needs mechanical keys.
| stronglikedan wrote:
| > ms ergonomic keyboard
|
| Hopefully you mean the Natural Ergonomic KB 4000, because every
| incarnation since has borked the key layouts in some
| significant way. I have a collection of those bad-boys, so
| hopefully I'll never run out, cuz they're getting harder to
| find.
| tw04 wrote:
| Definitely the KB 4000. I have a collection as well and still
| use them on occasion. I even researched and found one guy who
| converted his to mechanical but the amount of effort and time
| is well outside of what I could dedicate to a project like
| that.
| manquer wrote:
| Perhaps MS has some patents/IP protecting their design ? It may
| be why no one is doing it? .
|
| Even if the patents are questionable , small OEMs would not
| want to risk facing MS legal.
| morsch wrote:
| Logitech makes an ergonomic keyboard, the Logitech K860 ERGO,
| and smaller OEMs make them, too.
| rewgs wrote:
| The Kinesis Freestyle is absolutely fantastic.
| chin7an wrote:
| If MSFT released a cherry MX version of this keyboard, and
| moved the 6 key to the right hand cluster, it'd be an instant
| buy from me. I learned touch typing with 6 on the right side,
| and most keyboards I've seen have it setup the same, so not
| sure why MS sticks with this convention.
| moshmosh wrote:
| Huh. I haven't used an ergo keyboard in many years, and never
| used one much, but just checked and sure enough, I type the 6
| with my left hand, every time.
|
| It's either an innate it's-easier-for-some-reason thing, or
| else it's habit from stretching across the number keys while
| playing WASD+mouse video games. I type 7 and up with my
| right, though.
| chin7an wrote:
| Interesting, I never played much games but the WASD keys
| sounds like a really good reason why some may type '6' with
| the left hand.
| moshmosh wrote:
| Yeah, they're hot-keys for various things in a lot of
| games. If you've spent much time playing PC FPS games of
| the old-school type where your dude can carry a whole
| arsenal at once, for example, then you've had to get
| _very_ good at quickly and precisely striking the entire
| number row with your left hand, since they 're typically
| used to swap to a specific weapon, plus sometimes some of
| the F keys for other reasons (thinking in Jedi Knight,
| where F-keys are used to trigger force powers or healing
| in the default layout). Or any of the old-school keyboard
| + mouse or keyboard + joystick simulator games where
| almost every button does something, especially if they're
| combat oriented simulators (since that adds a lot of
| urgency to needing to hit many buttons very fast) like
| Mechwarrior or X-Wing/TIE Fighter.
| mamcx wrote:
| Totally. AL other ergots going full crazy or barely at all. MS
| Ergo classic is nearly perfect.
| konart wrote:
| Alice style keyboard is as close as you can get in terms of
| layout
| 37ef_ced3 wrote:
| I buy computers from System76 and they are good. Highly
| recommended
|
| But if it's not a wireless ergonomic keyboard, I am not
| interested
|
| The Microsoft Sculpt Ergonomic Wireless keyboard, despite its
| flaws, is the healthiest and most comfortable keyboard I've ever
| used. Started using it four years ago and I'll never go back
|
| Ideal if you edit in Vim: https://www.amazon.com/Microsoft-
| Ergonomic-Wireless-Desktop-...
| officeplant wrote:
| I like my sculpt I have at work. The casing is starting to
| crack after a year for some reason, but everything is
| functioning fine.
| millerm wrote:
| That thing (the System76 keyboard) is fugly. :-) I did just by
| a fun clicky, expensive keyboard, and not so expensive mouse
| for home. I purposely didn't buy wireless as I find no point in
| wireless when these things are on my desk 100% of the time. I
| just replaced both an apple wireless keyboard, and wireless
| magic mouse, with a wired Razor Blackwidow and a wired Logitech
| G403. Not to mention I'm sure someone can snoop on and log
| wireless keyboards. But, I'm tired of dealing with charging
| things, or replacing batteries.
| bluGill wrote:
| I like my wireless keyboard for some applications. Most of
| the time my keyboard is on my desk, but at my music
| workstation I instead of midi controllers in front of me, but
| sometimes I need to grab a keyboard/mouse for control. Not
| having to deal with wires there is great.
|
| I like my wireless mouse too: it moves, and my desk is too
| crowded to find a good spot for the cord to not get in the
| way. (with working from home I have a bunch of work related
| test fixtures taking up space.) Those who have a clean desk
| won't have this problem - but I've never been able to pull
| that off personally.
| eigenspace wrote:
| > But if it's not a wireless, split, ergonomic keyboard, I am
| not interested
|
| Not wireless, but I've recnetly gotten a ZSA Moonlander [1]
| keyboard and I'm in love. It's wonderful. Like the System76
| one, it's open source and you store the keyboard config on-
| device.
|
| [1] https://www.zsa.io/moonlander/
| codetheweb wrote:
| I took the plunge a few months ago on the Moonlander hoping
| to alleviate wrist pain and have not regretted it one bit.
| konart wrote:
| Ergodox and the like have one big problem: hard or impossible
| to use if you need a layout for a language that has more than
| 26 characters.
| eigenspace wrote:
| I disagree. This keyboard has programmable layers that can
| be switched between quite easily. For instance, I have a
| whole layer for greek characters because I use them a lot
| whilst programming.
|
| Developing muscle memory for the layers takes time, but
| it's not so bad.
| konart wrote:
| What does this have to do with the fact that I need all
| of my russian alphabet when I type in russian?
|
| The problem is that the default russian qwerty (or rather
| itsuken) simply won't fit. You will have to bind
| additional characters to weird places, which will be
| messing with your muscle memory or use layers, as you've
| said. Which is super annoying. Imagine you have to switch
| to a different layer when you need to type 'z', 'h', 's'
| and 'p' for example.
| eigenspace wrote:
| The Moonlander has 70 keys on it. If you don't want to
| split up your alphabet, just assign your whole alphabet
| to the first layer and move things like punctuation or
| numbers to the next layer There's plenty of room on this
| keyboard for bigger alphabets.
| blumomo wrote:
| Happy System76 Laptop user here, too! However nothing goes over
| the programmable, ergonomic split keyboard ,,Kinesis Advantage
| 2LF" ;-)
|
| https://kinesis-ergo.com/shop/advantage2/
| hprotagonist wrote:
| ergodox and moonlander come immediately to mind as things i'd
| use over an advantage2, for native QMK support if nothing
| else.
| bastardoperator wrote:
| In the world of mechanical keyboards I'd consider a kinesis
| to be mid range. Definitely a great keyboard, not terribly
| different from a Maltron or other ergo boards.
| eigenspace wrote:
| As a happy user of a Moonlander, I think the Kinesis has
| some nice advantages, namely the fact that the keys on each
| split are in a recessed well. I think that might have some
| ergonomic advantages, but I haven't tried one yet so I'm
| not sure.
| aseipp wrote:
| I am a new Moonlander user (for ~4 months now) who
| switched from a Kinesis1/2 after over 10 years of use.
| The well feels nice for e.g. the "d" column to be deeper
| than "f", so your longer index finger rests a little more
| naturally. I don't think it's a significant world-
| changing advantage, just one of those nice minor design
| touches.
|
| Honestly the bigger problem was that after 10 years of
| use, your hand position with any keyboard will cause you
| to hold it poorly at first with a new one, if the layout
| is massively different. The first 48 hours with the
| Moonlander were rough until I found the proper spacing
| and setup for them...
| eigenspace wrote:
| Yeah, coming from a traditional non-ergonomic keyboard,
| it took me a couple of weeks before I could type as fast
| on my Moonlander as I could on my previous keyboard.
|
| In particular, the keyboard being ortholinear took a lot
| of getting used to, but I am glad I invested time in
| making the switch.
| stronglikedan wrote:
| > Microsoft Sculpt Ergonomic Wireless keyboard
|
| Have you tried the Surface Ergonomic KB?
|
| All the goodness of the sculpt (even better IMHO) with a full
| layout.
|
| https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/p/surface-ergonomic-keyboard...
| handelaar wrote:
| In what sense am I "configuring" this when the _only_ thing I can
| change on it is the switch feel?
| coldtea wrote:
| It's not about ordering different configurations.
|
| It's about the keyboard being configurable, or as they say:
| "Remap keys, swap keycaps, and configure multiple layers to
| your liking. (...) Seamlessly adjust the layout with the
| Keyboard Configurator application. Because changes are saved to
| the keyboard's firmware, you can use your custom layout at any
| workstation. (...) Included key puller makes it easy to pop and
| place keys where you want them. Extra keycaps are provided in
| different sizes, contours, and red and blue accent colors.
| (...) Use four layers for personalized application shortcuts,
| adjusting hardware functions, non-QWERTY layouts, and more."
| porcc wrote:
| QMK-compatibility means that you can flash the keyboard with
| your own firmware, written in C. Quite a lot of potential for
| extension, macros, and odd bits and bobs of USB-compatible
| things like midi, steno protocols, and mouse movement.
| aidenn0 wrote:
| That's just their store template I assume; all of the PCs they
| sell have a lot more than just one option.
| hysan wrote:
| Not a fan of the shortened right Shift key. I've always thought
| of this as an over optimization to save space.
|
| Second thought - at this price point, I would expect this to be a
| split keyboard. Will this be in a future iteration?
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(page generated 2021-05-14 23:02 UTC)