[HN Gopher] Framework Laptop pre-orders are open, starting at $999
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Framework Laptop pre-orders are open, starting at $999
Author : sacred-rat
Score : 78 points
Date : 2021-05-13 15:18 UTC (7 hours ago)
(HTM) web link (frame.work)
(TXT) w3m dump (frame.work)
| emptysongglass wrote:
| My employer offered to buy me a new laptop and it would have been
| a pre-order for your Framework if the pre-order today was offered
| in the EU.
| nrp wrote:
| We'll be opening up ordering in Europe and Asia before the end
| of the year. Thanks for your patience (hopefully)!
| TheSpiceIsLife wrote:
| And Oceania too? I'm in Australia and have been holding off
| buying a new laptop with one eye on Framework. Happy to wait.
| nrp wrote:
| Yes, good question. Australia and New Zealand are on our
| target list to open before the end of the year.
| TheSpiceIsLife wrote:
| Excellent, thanks :)
| deltron3030 wrote:
| Is Thunderbolt 3 (for eGPUs) an option? Couldn't find any info on
| that..
| nrp wrote:
| We support USB4 on all four ports. We can't state anything
| about Thunderbolt compatibility until we complete
| certifications around it.
| jessikat wrote:
| Are the expansion cards based on USB, or is it more like
| Thunderbolt, built on top of PCIe?
|
| The lack of Thunderbolt makes it a complete no-go right now.
| elric wrote:
| The keyboard makes this a no-go for me, though I'm hoping they
| will be releasing additional versions? And I'm not talking about
| ANSI/ISO or internationalization (which they will be releasing),
| I'm talking about the lack of page up/down keys, the arrow keys,
| the lack of dedicated home/insert/end keys. These all fit
| comfortably on my X230 (which is smaller), and on my T470 (which
| is bigger, but has ~4cm to spare).
| clarge1120 wrote:
| Yes, that's a valuable observation.
|
| Perhaps, if this laptop can become sustainable they may offer
| more keyboard options to capture larger market share. If not,
| competitors will fill the need.
| [deleted]
| conqrr wrote:
| Wish there was an option to skip windows and shave a hundred
| bucks or so.
| f6v wrote:
| How long does the battery last with an i7 though?
| ramanujank wrote:
| Congratulations to the founder(s) on the launch. Wishing you
| nothing but success! Nice to see a pluggable approach at a time
| when "repairability" is catching the fancy of the whole world.
|
| If I had to nitpick, it would be the fact that Linux is
| unfortunately a second class citizen. However, I do see that
| support for mainstream distros is available. Can you possibly
| shed some light on that and be a bit more specific? What distros
| have you tested? What are the outcomes?
| nrp wrote:
| We dogfood regularly on Ubuntu LTS and Fedora, and we've been
| working with the team at Fedora (and have provided them a pre-
| release unit). In general, the only issue we foresee in the
| near term is that the fingerprint reader likely won't work out
| of the box in Linux. There is a driver though, and we're
| working on making that setup as easy as possible until it is in
| mainline.
| Abishek_Muthian wrote:
| Can you please ensure that you support Linux Vendor Firmware
| Service (LVFS)[1] i.e ensure your vendors support it.
|
| Edit: Bit more rant about LVFS goodness
|
| Even my Logitech 2.4 Ghz receiver gets regular updates on
| LVFS, can't remember it happening even with official Logitech
| SW on Mac/Windows. LVFS fixes the embedded controller
| security/bugs mess. A functional laptop like Framework when
| released with first class support for Linux features like
| LVFS can add more value to the customer.
|
| [1]https://fwupd.org/
| nrp wrote:
| Definitely! We're set up as a vendor there and will be
| using it for updates in the future:
| https://fwupd.org/lvfs/vendors/#framework
| Abishek_Muthian wrote:
| Yay! Added some more rant about LVFS to my original
| comment.
| TomSwirly wrote:
| We? You helped with this? You guys rock!
|
| Now there's a repairable, upgradable choice, it's going to be
| hard to get me to do anything else.
| xur17 wrote:
| Do you plan to sell the prebuilt systems with linux
| preinstalled (or with no OS)? I have no desire for my money
| to go to Microsoft, and no desire for Windows, but the
| prebuilt model is intriguing to me.
| nrp wrote:
| Preloading a Linux distro is something we may do in the
| future. We've made the DIY Edition super easy to set up
| though for folks who don't want Windows in the meantime.
| enriquto wrote:
| preinstalled linux is a hard requirement for many users,
| even if they want to reinstall it themselves. It gives an
| assurance that CPU throttling, suspension, hibernation,
| will work correctly. Otherwise it feels like a lottery.
| Of course a linux install is easy and will always work;
| but will it work _correctly_? If you offer preinstalled
| linuxes we can be sure it does.
| wutbrodo wrote:
| > It gives an assurance that CPU throttling, suspension,
| hibernation, will work correctly.
|
| For what it's worth, I had two XPS 13s in a row and the
| one that came with Ubuntu pre-installed had _way_ worse
| hardware compatibility problems.
| ryanlol wrote:
| > If you offer preinstalled linuxes we can be sure it
| does.
|
| With that one specific preinstalled kernel image.
| heavyset_go wrote:
| I'd buy this in a heartbeat if I could get a guarantee
| that it would work well with Linux. Having Linux pre-
| installed is one way to signal confidence that it works
| well with Linux.
| yjftsjthsd-h wrote:
| It sounds like they're internally running Linux on these,
| which also seems like a pretty good sign?
| heavyset_go wrote:
| Doesn't mean that all of the peripherals work ideally, or
| that power management works ideally.
| ncmncm wrote:
| My nitpicking is about its offering only Intel CPUs. Hello? Why
| do Intel at all, these days? What everybody is desperate for
| are AMD laptops, which are barely available from the volume
| makers.
| zipityzi wrote:
| Agreed. Zen3 would've been killer and cooler to boot.
|
| I wonder if it is a supply concern? Zen2 laptops also
| ~seemed~ in scarce supply for quite some time last year, even
| after the launch.
|
| How to tease out Intel's anti-competitive belligerence versus
| actual supply issues? Zen3 on desktop seems to be regularly
| available, but desktop is lower volume than mobile.
|
| This really deserves an AMD variant.
|
| I would suspect Intel has juicy bundle discounts, especially
| if this is a part of the EVO program (which I don't think it
| publicly is).
| samstave wrote:
| I love my HP Omen laptop - the guts are beautifully
| designed.
|
| I really like the idea of Framework - especially how easily
| the KB appears to be replaceable.
|
| The keyboards on the Clio made S76 machines I had
| (gazelles) were completely non-replaceable.
|
| What would be great ultimately is a splash-proof kb on a
| machine.
| detaro wrote:
| And if even the volume makers barely have the stuff
| available, always sold out immediately, you think they'd have
| an easier time?
| ncmncm wrote:
| Intel coerces the big guys by gaming their supply chain.
|
| A little startup will not have got the attention of Intel,
| and their total volume needs are much more easily satisfied
| by what they can get from AMD's limited delivery than a big
| player could be.
| BoysenberryPi wrote:
| This is my guess:
|
| 1. AMD is having major supply issues and is not allocating
| their supply towards laptops. Laptops are just not a huge
| priority for them right now when all of the consoles, desktop
| CPUs, and GPUs are flying off the shelves.
|
| 2. Intel not only has consistent supply but Intel frequently
| works with "experimental" projects like this helping OEMs
| with design. Complete speculation but I would not be
| surprised if Intel had a hand in the design of this laptop.
| dang wrote:
| Recent threads:
|
| _Preparing for Pre-Orders! (Framework modular laptop)_ -
| https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27052468 - May 2021 (79
| comments)
|
| _The Framework Laptop_ -
| https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26263508 - Feb 2021 (991
| comments)
|
| There's also _Framework's repairable laptop is up for preorder,
| starting at $999_ - https://techcrunch.com/2021/05/13/frameworks-
| repairable-lapt...
|
| (via https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27142913, but we merged
| that thread hither)
| chafporte wrote:
| I want to see the charger plug and the socket. these are the
| first cause of death for laptops.
| nrp wrote:
| The Framework Laptop can charge through any of the four
| Expansion Card bays using a USB-C Expansion Card. This means
| that the charging port is replaceable. The power adapter also
| has separable AC and USB-C cables that can be individually
| replaced if ever needed.
| dempseye wrote:
| This is not a knock on Framework, but it amuses me that a base
| spec of 8 GB of RAM is acceptable in 2021.
|
| The last time I bought a laptop was 2014. It was a Macbook Pro
| 15'. Even then, 8 GB was an irritating amount of RAM, so I bumped
| it up to 16 GB.
|
| 7 years later things have hardly improved.
| CarelessExpert wrote:
| Eh, if I was buying my mom a laptop I'd probably not waste
| money on more than 8GB, especially given I know I could just
| add more later.
| pjerem wrote:
| Hey, at least here, you can upgrade after the purchase ;)
| oldandboring wrote:
| Agree 100%.
| gruez wrote:
| > This is not a knock on Framework, but it amuses me that a
| base spec of 8 GB of RAM is acceptable in 2021.
|
| my theory: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27097103
| aquaticsunset wrote:
| Yeah, it's throwing 500s for me when I try to preorder.
|
| I'm very excited for this laptop! It's not even the fact that
| they essentially moved the dongles inside the frame, it's that it
| feels like a laptop for people who want to open it up and replace
| stuff.
| enlightens wrote:
| I'm excited to see orders open up. I'm not overly familiar with
| current computer pricing but I'm pretty happy with what these are
| selling for.
| shimonabi wrote:
| This is really a great idea. I hope your company succeeds.
|
| I would buy it just for the blank ISO keyboard. I hope you also
| add shipping from the EU.
|
| BTW. Why does the Enter key look so strange?
| abrowne wrote:
| > Why does the Enter key look so strange?
|
| It looks like a design some other laptops use, with the top
| enclosure cut to fit both ANSI (horizontal) and ISO (vertical)
| enter keys, so there's no silver metal case between the enter
| key and the one next to it, just dark plastic from the
| keyboard.
| macdamaniac wrote:
| This looks awesome, hopeful for the future where they have AMD
| CPU options as well.
| shimonabi wrote:
| I made this comment a while ago and got a ton of negative votes:
|
| https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27053745
|
| They either listened to me or I should be a contestant on "The
| Price is Right". ;)
| grecy wrote:
| Can I get it without Windows please and save the licence fee for
| something I'll never use?
| boudin wrote:
| It's possible, when pre-ordering the DIY one there's a "bring
| your own" operating system option.
|
| That's too bad they don't talk about this DIY pre-order option
| that allows to customize a lot of things.
|
| They even say they support Linux, which is a great selling
| point.
| car wrote:
| The power supply is using gallium nitride [0], very cool! Using
| GaN shows attention to detail, glad I ordered that as well.
|
| [0]https://frame.work/blog/power-adapter
| poidos wrote:
| I wish them all the best; this is an exciting, welcome offering
| in this space.
|
| I wish I could find the use for one, but I'm stuck with Apple's
| laptops for as long as I work in app development.
| nrp wrote:
| Framework founder here. Happy to answer any questions anyone has
| on the product!
| fyrn- wrote:
| Why go with an intel plastform right now when AMD laptops CPU
| are lapping intel ones for heavily multithreaded work like
| compiling? I suspect for developers which probably represent a
| larger than normal segment of your potential customers, that
| AMD cpus would have been the better choice for battery life and
| multithread?
| uncletaco wrote:
| When is the website coming back up
| nrp wrote:
| Back up now! We upgraded some infrastructure quickly to
| handle the massive influx of visitors.
| zipityzi wrote:
| I think it's down again if you click the configurations.
| Home page is sometimes up, but that's also down some of the
| time.
|
| " 500 Internal Server Error If you are the administrator of
| this website, then please read this web application's log
| file and/or the web server's log file to find out what went
| wrong."
|
| The hug of death.
| rpdillon wrote:
| Got all the way to checkout, but couldn't order. I'll keep
| checking back!
| nrp wrote:
| Thanks for your patience! We're upgrading infrastructure
| further, but the website is very much still struggling
| under the load. On that note, we're hiring a Backend
| Engineer if anyone is interested! https://jobs.lever.co/f
| ramework/6935fb47-2921-49df-b94c-e45c...
| foodstances wrote:
| What was the point of signing up for pre-order emails and
| following your launch if it was going to be announced
| everywhere at the same time? Your website is down and it was
| impossible to complete a pre-order checkout because of all the
| errors.
| questionableans wrote:
| Have you tested the laptop's materials for offgassing?
|
| I've had problems with offgassing odors that never seem to go
| away on multiple monitors, MacBooks and an iPad in recent
| years. This leads to headaches that makes it impossible to use
| the machines for more than a few minutes, even with good room
| ventilation.
|
| It would be great to buy a laptop that is known to be low
| offgassing. I was wondering if a Framework laptop would have
| less glue and could be more effective offgassed in a shed by
| disassembling the components and ventilating.
| alisonkisk wrote:
| What do you suspect is the chemical that is new and
| widespread?
| willtim wrote:
| This is a noble effort and you can certainly take the moral
| high-ground over companies like Apple. However, often the
| problem is not only whether parts are replaceable but also
| availability of spares. For example, my 2016 X1 Carbon needs a
| new battery and it is easily user-replaceable, yet Lenovo no
| longer make or sell them. How can you make sure that parts are
| available, especially if your suppliers stop making them?
| nrp wrote:
| We're committing to making compatible parts available. Part
| of how we're doing this is continuing to use this design and
| architecture going forward for the foreseeable future. This
| means that as we continue to refresh the specs each year,
| modules like the battery, display, and others will remain
| cross-compatible. This makes it easier for us to keep
| suppliers bought in for the long-haul.
| dflock wrote:
| How long is long?
| simon_weber wrote:
| Any idea when reviewers will get their hands on it? It'd be
| nice to have some reviews prior to pre-orders going out.
| nrp wrote:
| Definitely! We'll be sending out review units before we start
| shipping out to customers.
| MaxBarraclough wrote:
| Similar to the question from myself248:
|
| Does it run on Free Software? Put another way, what would the
| FSF _Respects Your Freedom_ programme [0] make of it? How does
| it compare to the Purism Librem machines?
|
| [0] https://ryf.fsf.org/about/criteria
| myself248 wrote:
| What's the UEFI / secure boot situation like? Say someone's
| been considering a Purism machine, how does the Framework
| compare?
| luke2m wrote:
| Would like to know this.
| zipityzi wrote:
| Thank you so much for starting this project and hopefully long-
| term investment. Incredibly refreshing.
|
| The site is down for the moment. What is the situation about
| warranty?
|
| Do you plan to offer multi-year options? I'm all for repairing
| my own laptop, but if there is an option to pay upfront for
| some peace of mind on at least the parts, I'd bite.
| nrp wrote:
| We offer a pretty standard 1-year limited warranty. Extended
| warranties are something we are exploring, but are not
| available yet.
| zipityzi wrote:
| Thank you for the reply. Great to hear it's on Framework's
| radar.
|
| While the reparability helps (as I'm used to even $800
| laptops calling for $300 screens + webcam + Wi-Fi antenna),
| if it's profitable for Framework, it'd be an instant buy
| here.
| dmayle wrote:
| Hi!
|
| I've got two questions about input:
|
| 1. Will there be an ISO option for the keyboard layout? (To
| support non-US layouts, and for those who aren't familiar, just
| changing the key mapping isn't sufficient, ISO has an extra key
| and a different shape on the enter key)
|
| 2. Any plans to support Sensel touchpads? The tech is really
| amazing (I've heard the latest described as better than a
| macbook)
| nrp wrote:
| Yes, we have some photos on the website currently showing
| ANSI and ISO keyboard geometry. As we continue to add more
| keyboard languages, there will be both ANSI and ISO ones
| depending on the language (and JIS for Japan).
|
| The touchpad is replaceable, though we don't currently have
| plans for alternate types.
| dilippkumar wrote:
| Congratulations on your launch!
|
| How do you track quality during development, production,
| product planning and polling for customer satisfaction?
|
| Can you share some thoughts on the current state of quality
| assurance in the industry in general? Is this an area for
| product differentiation?
| nrp wrote:
| We have both Quality and Customer Experience teams to span
| quality from the sub-suppliers and manufacturing through to
| customers, so that we can close the loop on any field issues.
| an_opabinia wrote:
| In what country are the laptops manufactured?
|
| Which three parts in a laptop have the highest failure rate,
| and what are those rates?
|
| What I can't wrap my head around is, a consumer that feels
| strongly about repairing laptops themselves, for clearly non-
| economic reasons, but would balk at the cost of a laptop
| manufactured in the West, which is 100% of the labor the day
| the laptop ships, because then the computer would cost 3 times
| as much.
| nrp wrote:
| We manufacture subassemblies and most modules in China with
| final assembly in Taiwan.
|
| In typical consumer notebooks, batteries, hinges, ports, and
| keyboards would be parts that wear out over time. We've
| designed the Framework Laptop to make each of those easy to
| swap as needed.
| samstave wrote:
| Do you have an exploded diagram of all the individual
| parts?
| nrp wrote:
| We'll be publishing repair guides showing all the parts
| and assembly steps. In the meantime, you can check out
| some of the images that show modules:
| https://frame.work/products/laptop-diy-edition
| samstave wrote:
| Dopes.
|
| The QR Code in the transparency section doesnt work:
|
| https://i.imgur.com/TjfcWOP.png
|
| "page doesnt exist"
| nrp wrote:
| Yes... good catch. We wondered if people would start
| scanning that image. That will redirect into our product
| pages and repair guides before we start shipping units
| out.
| robotnikman wrote:
| Any plans in the future to include a discrete GPU option?
| nrp wrote:
| We likely won't within this 13.5" form factor, since even
| with a discrete GPU there would be some problematic thermal
| budget tradeoffs with the CPU. GPU modularity is definitely a
| compelling area though!
| frmwklptpq wrote:
| Special shout-out and thanks regarding:
|
| > To maximize eye comfort, we use a DC mode backlight
| controller instead of a PWM one that can cause visible
| flickering
|
| I hope this still stands, and it uses true DC dimming. If so,
| _thank you_ so much!
|
| These days it is hard to find non-PWM laptops even in premium
| segment.
|
| Even high-frequency PWM is not great for eyestrain, so DC
| dimming is really appreciated! Some manufacturers go as low as
| 250HZ.
|
| p.s.
|
| If anyone wants to check if your display has PWM:
|
| 0. All OLED screens utilize PWM. They are terrible to view in
| low light environment. This means that all new phones and OLED
| laptops are terrible for night reading, don't do it! If you are
| curious about headaches after extensive screen time, guess no
| more.
|
| 1. For LCD laptops, however, set display brightness at 10% (can
| try different settings in low range, too)
|
| 2. Open some bright content (e.g. blank white page) and go to
| some completely dark room.
|
| 3. Using phone camera's preview screen, set it to photo mode
| and play with different settings of exposure (in pro/advanced
| settings) while pointing at the screen: try 1/8000, 1/250, etc.
| Also try slow-motion capture of the screen. High-frequency PWM
| (new Mac laptops) is quite bad, but hard to detect without
| special equipment, but still can easily put eyestrain. Low
| frequency PWM is much easier to detect with just a phone
| camera.
| skratlo wrote:
| Why did you choose Intel over AMD?
| GordonS wrote:
| The lack of upgradability of laptops is a huge problem,
| especially when so many come with 16GB or even a piddling 8GB
| of RAM - I'm excited to see you guys actually shipping!
|
| Do you have any plans to sell in the UK and Europe, through a
| distributor or otherwise?
| nrp wrote:
| Yes! We'll be selling directly to consumers in several
| countries in Europe (and UK) and Asia before the end of the
| year.
| ssivark wrote:
| Hi, thanks for hanging around; the idea seems exciting! A few
| questions (likely FAQs):
|
| 1. How much thicker & heavier is this laptop than similar
| screen size MacBook Pro and Thinkpads? (Is the battery life
| comparable?)
|
| 2. Is there soldered-on RAM and/or expansion slots?
|
| 3. Can this run linux without any hitch?
|
| ----
|
| PS: Website seems to be down for now.
|
| > _Framework is undergoing maintenance right now. Please check
| back in a few minutes._
| nrp wrote:
| The website is back up!
|
| We're at almost exactly the same thickness and weight as a
| MacBook Pro 13-inch, and lighter and thinner than most
| T-series ThinkPads.
|
| The storage, both memory sockets, and WiFi are socketed for
| upgradeability, and the entire mainboard is upgradeable too!
|
| We're testing for compatibility with major linux
| distributions, and expect near complete support (with
| potentially only the fingerprint reader driver coming in
| later).
| bl0b wrote:
| FYI you probably already know this, but I get a 500 server
| error attempting to access
| https://frame.work/products/laptop
| 6510 wrote:
| its a good problem to have
| LawnGnome wrote:
| Maybe more feedback than questions, although if there are
| roadmap items that would address these it'd be good to know!
| I'm really excited about this -- besides repairability, I think
| the USB-C expansion cards are great, and a really neat solution
| to a tricky problem. I love the idea of never having to carry a
| USB-C dongle ever again, particularly when travelling.
|
| The blocker that is stopping me ordering this today (besides
| being in Canada) is:
|
| 1. The display. I've spent the last several years using laptops
| with higher resolution displays (either Macbook Pros or, more
| recently, a 4k Dell XPS 13), and honestly, I'm not going back.
| It's a shame that the one thing that doesn't seem to be
| upgradeable right now is the screen configuration. (I realise
| that the Framework's display isn't exactly low-res, but it
| feels like it's going to be in an uncanny valley of not quite
| HiDPI/Retina.)
|
| Beyond that, other things I wish were different (or at least
| clearer), but which aren't blockers:
|
| 1. Like other commenters, I don't use Windows, and I don't
| particularly want to pay for a Windows licence. 2. There's no
| mention I can see on the product page of how many external
| displays are supported, and in what configurations, and that's
| important to me. 3. I'd probably be more comfortable if some
| late pre-production units had made it to independent reviewers
| for judging things like battery life and the display. (I'd love
| to see an Anandtech breakdown of a Framework!)
| skratlo wrote:
| The display is fine, 4k / retina is not practical in any way,
| it's just marketing.
| pkulak wrote:
| It matters because you want to scale in integer amounts. So
| 110 dpi is fine. 220 too. Even 330. So it's not just higher
| number better, but the right number better.
| skrtskrt wrote:
| Do we have to do this on every thread about laptops?
|
| Just because you don't care about 4K or retina doesn't mean
| it's marketing juju. People obviously find value in it.
|
| I use 2k and 4k screens with scaling on, and it makes text
| and edges very clear and smooth. It reduces my eye strain
| significantly. Lower res than 2k is very visibly fuzzy.
|
| It's fine if you don't value that, but to act like it's
| "not practical in any way" is plainly wrong.
|
| There are people in every laptop thread pushing the
| narrative that anyone who prefers a higher resolution
| screen is delusional or lying. It's really strange.
| yjftsjthsd-h wrote:
| As long as we can also stop claiming that a machine is
| automatically unusable because it has a slightly lower
| resolution, sure. People seem oddly convinced that only
| their preferred resolution / pixel density is valid in
| both directions.
| nrp wrote:
| We're pretty happy with the display. At a little over 200
| PPI, it is basically just over the edge of "retina" where
| pixels aren't visible at normal viewing distance, while being
| less power-hungry than a 4k panel.
|
| We offer the DIY Edition without Windows pre-installed, and
| will be publishing compatibility reports for popular Linux
| distros.
|
| With Intel 11th Gen CPUs, the Framework Laptop handles up to
| four simultaneous displays (which can be 4x external displays
| if you turn off the internal one).
|
| We'll be making review units available before we start
| shipping products out.
| LawnGnome wrote:
| I really appreciate the response. Thanks!
| pkulak wrote:
| That resolution is so close to 2X! Why not just a little bit
| denser so that desktops can integer scale instead of 1.8x?
|
| EDIT: Just did the math and your screen is 200dpi... which is
| very close to the 220 or so I'm used to on high-dpi, 13"
| screens. Maybe close enough that it won't matter?
| SuchAnonMuchWow wrote:
| Thank you very much for what you build. It's amazing, and will
| be the perfect replacement for my aging laptop.
|
| The only thing missing for me is an ethernet port (which I need
| to connect to the internal network at work). Do you have any
| plan to add it as an extension card ? If no, any technical
| reasons why not ?
| nrp wrote:
| Thanks! We are developing an Ethernet Expansion Card. Due to
| the size of the receptacle and magnetics required, it'll bump
| out rather than being flush like the other cards, but still
| more convenient than an external dongle.
| m463 wrote:
| When Apple came out with flat keyboards (~2007/2008?) the
| entire industry copied the trend.
|
| The tops of the keys are flat, giving very little "context" to
| your fingers for accurate typing. It is hard to find the center
| or edges of the keys, which would be easier on sculpted keys
| which are concave and conform to your fingers.
|
| Do manufacturers even make keyboards like that for laptops
| anymore?
| nrp wrote:
| We put a lot of effort into great keyboard feel on the
| Framework laptop, both in terms of key travel (1.5mm) and key
| shape. There are limits to what you can do in a 15.85mm thick
| machine, but we stack up well compared to most other thin and
| light notebooks on keyboard quality.
| kevinkeller wrote:
| Is it possible to run the laptop directly off AC power,
| bypassing the battery?
|
| Alternatively, is it possible to cap the battery charging at,
| say, 60-80%?
|
| Since one of the key aspects of the laptop is the longevity and
| serviceability of the hardware, I am curious how the battery
| health can be managed.
| anigbrowl wrote:
| Hi, thanks for your availability and a cool product.
|
| I wonder if you plan to make the hardware spec (or parts
| thereof like the form factor) open source? It's nota deal
| breaker if you don't, but would be a big plus if you do
| (although more challenging from a business logic standpoint,
| but Red Hat seems to have done OK).
| TheSpiceIsLife wrote:
| I recall reading previous HN thread where they said they were
| / would permit / encourage others to build compatible
| component.
| janmo wrote:
| I hope the hinges are of good quality and can be easily replaced,
| my two last had massive hinge issues, and replacing them is no
| easy task.
| NiceWayToDoIT wrote:
| Probably part of planned obsolescence, they any other part
| would ruin manufacturer reputation, let say if you loose data
| etc.
| nrp wrote:
| We test to 20,000 hinge cycles, and we also made them easy to
| replace.
| rgrmrts wrote:
| Really exciting and congrats on the launch! I was somewhat hoping
| there would be "see through" options for the bezel and the
| keyboard/trackpad frame - maybe a future consideration? I'm
| likely going to order one in the near future to use as my Linux
| driver.
| nrp wrote:
| Thanks! We actually do have a clear keyboard design
| (https://youtu.be/XFrJcjCbCA8?t=1005) which we'll be making
| available later this summer. We've prototyped a transparent
| bezel too, but aren't happy with the quality on it just yet.
| That is something we'd love to make available too though.
| pjungwir wrote:
| Wow these look great! My family has two 2013 Macbook Airs I need
| to replace soon, and the latest Apple options feel like big
| compromises. I love that I can get high levels of RAM. Linux
| support is a hard requirement for me though. And I'd love to see
| some numbers re battery life.
|
| The price is lower than I expected. I wouldn't listen to the
| people saying it's too high.
|
| Nice job!
| daedalus2027 wrote:
| I wish i could buy it in parts, the customs in my country doesn't
| allow anything above 200 usd to go throught. I wish i could buy
| one day the frame, other day yhe motherboard and so on...
| samstave wrote:
| What country is that, and why is that?
| gruez wrote:
| >and why is that?
|
| probably import tariffs on tech products, with exceptions if
| it's below a certain amount.
| nrp wrote:
| A lot of countries have "de minimus" thresholds below which
| an individual can import duty-free. In the US for
| reference, it's $800, but other countries have other
| limits. If you're over that limit, either the product needs
| to be delivered duty paid (DDP) by the importer or if it is
| un-paid, the end recipient has to jump through some hoops
| to pay, with varying complexity in different countries.
|
| Trade logistics is an interesting challenge, and one we
| want to solve so our customers don't have to... That is
| part of why we're introducing new regions in phases.
| mike_k wrote:
| Thanks for doing this! It would be very nice to know the
| list of countries where you will ship this year.
|
| I was very excited and ordered it to an US address. But
| that means: I pay US tax + shipping/forwarding costs +
| local import tax of 30% on anything above USD150.
|
| Also, I will have to order an ISO keyboard separately,
| when it becomes available (and it is not clear when that
| happens). I figured out that metal cover should be
| compatible between US and ISO keyboards, right?
| anotheryou wrote:
| I'm always out of the loop with hardware: how much does an
| equivalent system from the big ones cost?
|
| And how future proof/upgradable are cpu and gpu? I assume
| storage, ram, motherboard and usb-c will take you far otherwise.
|
| And I wonder if it's available in Europe.
|
| edit: oh, no dedicated GPU.
| nrp wrote:
| We've designed the mainboard (with CPU) to be upgradeable.
| Since the storage, memory, ports, and WiFi are socketed, that
| reduces the cost of the mainboard by itself.
| anotheryou wrote:
| Thanks! Still sounds really good :).
|
| Is there a usb-c gpu that would be compatible? (edit: we'll
| see: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27144085 )
|
| I already replaced my battery 2 times, speakers once, wifi
| once. All was just so still possible on my 2016 laptop. I
| have an even older laptop with broken screen in use too.
|
| If only I didn't want to run a game every now and than :). I
| now wonder what to get next:
|
| - another laptop with a dedicated gpu
|
| - something like this here and some usb-c gpu as soon as the
| onboard gpu doesn't do the trick anymore
|
| - or a desktop for games and media stuff (and a pinebook for
| typing and youtube or just use my machine from work)
| yjftsjthsd-h wrote:
| > If only I didn't want to run a game every now and than
|
| I hear surprisingly good things about remote options like
| https://www.nvidia.com/en-us/geforce-now/ which would avoid
| you needing the hardware at all.
| neuromute wrote:
| I can't seem to find any information on the BIOS for this
| machine. I'd like to see something like this come with coreboot.
| yjftsjthsd-h wrote:
| Actually, I'm curious why coreboot (probably with TianoCore and
| maybe SeaBIOS payloads) isn't wildly popular; is it just that
| companies making motherboards (I think?) just tend to do their
| own think and OEMs just go with that by default so it'd be
| extra work? Because if every OEM had to go get a firmware
| implementation for every machine, I'd naively expect coreboot
| to be super widespread just by virtue of costing nothing and
| _probably_ having better tooling than the proprietary
| alternatives.
| gruez wrote:
| How does the DIY edition work? It seems to be cheaper to get that
| and bring your own parts than it is to get a preconfigured
| version. Do you just insert the missing parts (memory, ssd,
| wifi)? Or do you have to assemble the whole thing from scratch?
| ben509 wrote:
| The relevant blurb seems to be:
|
| > Build it Yourself
|
| > The DIY Edition is the only high-end laptop you can customize
| and assemble yourself from a kit of modules. Coming in at just
| 15.85mm thick and 1.3kg, the Framework Laptop delivers the
| modularity of a desktop in the form factor of a thin and light
| 13.5" notebook.
| gruez wrote:
| Right but what does the "kit of modules" consist of? Do I
| have to assemble the motheboard/case/display/keyboard? Or is
| it just the configurable components (memory, ssd, wifi)?
| danielovichdk wrote:
| Love it. Feedback would be that the keyboard must have different
| options for the pad. It looks like the pad now is too big for me
| at least.
|
| So make it a an option please.
| axelthegerman wrote:
| Can't wait to watch some product reviews. That and full Linux
| support - until then my Pinebook Pro does almost everything I
| need. Not the fastest but more devs should use lower spec
| hardware.
| cyberpunk wrote:
| Why should they?
| jacob019 wrote:
| So that they can pay more attention to performance.
| Koffiepoeder wrote:
| If you design for slow hardware it will sure as hell work
| well on fast hardware. If things become unbearably slow on
| your slow hardware however, you're closer to actual user
| experience and will notice this earlier. Long story short,
| using slow or bad hardware helps detecting performance and
| usability issues earlier.
| CobsterLock wrote:
| I have a coworker that always preaches testing on bad
| hardware. Sometimes it catches multi threaded issues, like if
| you arent locking correctly and use a resource before its
| generated. Other than that it helps ensure that you are
| squeezing more performance out of the software rather than
| relying on fast hardware. I think this sentiment comes after
| dealing with a ton of chromium apps that can be resource
| hogs. Presumably they are developed on machines with tons of
| resources then forced onto my dev machine and still use tons
| of resource that I need to write my own stuff. Personally I
| dont care too much, if the software has performance critical
| requirements, it should be thoroughly tested in some pipeline
| not my machine.
| michaelpb wrote:
| Re. your last point, I generally agree with the idea that
| performance testing should be automated, not on an ad-hoc
| local machine basis.
|
| But I also do think developers live in bit of a "CPU
| bubble", and we need to break out of it. Most people don't
| have pricey hardware, and no matter what your reasoning
| (environmental / e-waste, user experience, simple love of
| the craft, etc), it is important to write performant
| software. In using old hardware I've discovered many, many
| apps are so incredibly frustrating to use for average users
| --- borderline unusable --- and I suspect their developers
| aren't even aware.
|
| So, I don't know what the issue is, if it's tech management
| trends (eg "sales-driven" development), or it's a lack of
| automated performance testing, or beefy dev boxes, or what.
| But IMO it's downright embarrassing to the entire industry
| how bad software has gotten on average.
| kitsunesoba wrote:
| Fully agree. I have a couple of old C2D/C2Q machines
| still kicking around and after upgrading their storage to
| SSDs, running the latest Win10 builds they're still
| totally viable day-to-day machines... well, until you
| fire up a notoriously heavy web/electron app, and then
| they're suddenly on their knees. If the devs working on
| these apps had to use such machines even a single day per
| week I'm sure we'd see marked improvements.
| michaelpb wrote:
| Exactly. I know this may give grumpy-old-man vibes, but I
| find it ridiculous that with a Pentium III with ~0.1GB of
| RAM we could do similar day-to-day tasks with IRC or AIM
| or whatever (group chatting, sharing media, etc), but
| running Slack on a computer that's 10-100x as powerful
| can get such terrible performance I'm sometimes forced to
| type in a text editor and copy over.
| dham wrote:
| Hey this looks great. Looking forward to Linux compatibility
| statement.
|
| The site looks like it's getting the hug of death, which is going
| to be hard dealing with on Rails unless you have some kind of
| caching. It looks like you're on Cloudflare. I would recommend
| doing site rules and turn on static html caching for a lot of
| front facing pages. Basically anything that isn't the laptop
| build page.
| nrp wrote:
| Thanks! On Linux, we dogfood on Ubuntu LTS and Fedora, and have
| a pre-release unit with the Fedora team. We'll be publishing
| more detailed compatibility results soon, but it looks good.
|
| We're definitely having some back end issues under the load! As
| noted elsewhere, we're hiring in this area (help us, please):
| https://jobs.lever.co/framework/6935fb47-2921-49df-b94c-e45c...
| lawn wrote:
| Love the idea here, but I'm underwhelmed by the CPU. Such a
| shame.
| ruph123 wrote:
| I am really excited for this and consider buying a second gen
| next year if they support Linux. But $2000 + tax for a quad core
| is pretty brutal (i7-1185G7).
|
| I got a 14" notebook with a Ryzen 7 4800H for less than 1000EUR
| from a small vendor (Tuxedo).
|
| Hard to choose this as it stands. Still I would support them and
| pay the markup. Hopefully they can support AMD CPUs in their next
| models.
| nrp wrote:
| Just a note that the Base configuration that starts at $999 is
| also a quad core, the i5-1135G7. The i7-1185G7 is really only
| necessary if you need vPro for enterprise fleet management
| reasons (we also have a i7-1165G7 SKU for folks who want higher
| clocks but not vPro).
| ruph123 wrote:
| Okay but that does not make it better. A slightly higher
| boost clock on one hand vs a strong octa-core CPU on the
| other (and this is last year's generation).
| COGlory wrote:
| Are you able to elaborate on why there's no AMD option? I've
| preordered a DIY one, with the hope that down the line I can
| put an AMD main board in. (Still undecided on whether I'll
| want it if that never becomes an option)
| nrp wrote:
| We designed our mainboard system to be able upgradeable to
| future CPU platforms. We have nothing we can share around
| that today, but it's a core part of the product!
| kevinherron wrote:
| The odd resolution display (2256x1504) will likely require that
| your OS have good high DPI / fractional scaling support, making
| this not really an ideal candidate for running linux :/
|
| (save your Wayland/sway/"works for me" story for somebody who
| cares. I do have a working high DPI Linux laptop setup and am
| fully aware of all the tradeoffs that are required from each of
| the various configurations)
| nrp wrote:
| We've found the display resolution and scaling to work well in
| Ubuntu 20.04 and Fedora.
| worik wrote:
| https://frame.work/
| emsy wrote:
| I can hardly wait for them to be available in the EU/Germany.
| This is pretty close to my ideal laptop: reasonable aspect ratio,
| repairability and a competitive price point.
| [deleted]
| mxwsn wrote:
| I've been eagerly anticipating this, and am very pleasantly
| surprised by the price. Excited to have pre-ordered in batch #1
| :)
| nrp wrote:
| Thanks! We wanted to make the it a really easy choice, and
| didn't want anyone to have to pay more for a longer-lasting
| product.
| bpye wrote:
| Looks like I'm waiting a little longer for Canada preorders. I
| don't need a new device but I really want to see this be
| successful m.
| tormeh wrote:
| Wish there was a ATX-like standard for laptops. It wouldn't work
| for 13-inch laptops with super-tight internals, but for gaming
| laptops and mobile workstations it'd be awesome. Imagine your
| laptop is getting a bit old, so you swap out motherboard, CPU and
| RAM. That's the kind of laptop I want.
| nrp wrote:
| We wish there was a standard too! We designed the mainboard in
| the Framework Laptop to be replaceable and upgradeable to
| future generations, along with the upgradeability of memory and
| storage. We've be developing new mainboards ourselves, and we'd
| love to bring in third party compatible mainboards too.
| Badfood wrote:
| I would love to make an arm board. Would be cool if you could
| publish some sort of reference design EDA files with just the
| board outline and IO connectors populated.
| nrp wrote:
| That is doable!
| leetcrew wrote:
| laptops with discrete GPUs usually have an integrated heatpipe
| solution that cools the CPU, GPU, and chipset. at least that's
| been the case with all the ones I've opened up. so you would
| probably have to replace the GPU also. even without the GPU,
| the CPU/RAM/mobo is already a pretty big portion of the BOM.
|
| at that point, I have to wonder how much you would actually
| save by not replacing the screen, chassis, and storage.
| overall, this concept strikes me as more of a win for repairs
| than upgrades.
| CoolGuySteve wrote:
| All the sub-3lbs ultrabooks I've owned so far follow a similar
| design, the bottom of the laptop acts like a tray with the top
| half taken by the motherboard/heatpipe assembly and the bottom
| half being filled with battery.
|
| There are differences in where the display/USB ribbon
| connectors are and speakers are always in strange places.
| Sometimes the bottom tray is tapered off like a MacBook Air.
| Some ultrabooks are 9mm thick and others are 11mm thick, but at
| that point, honestly who cares?
|
| But in general, I don't see any reason why a 13" standard for
| laptop motherboards+heatpipe can't exist. Out of the XPS, HP,
| and Asus systems I've upgraded in the last 6ish years, they've
| all looked more or less the same but with annoying 1-2cm
| differences in ribbon connectors and screw placements.
|
| If anything, standardization might lead to more efficient use
| of battery compartments. A lot of laptops seem to have empty
| air surrounding a commodity battery that could have been 55Wh
| instead of 42Wh if the space was used better.
| passivate wrote:
| Many popular 'standards' needed someone like an Intel or an IBM
| to push it into the mainstream by adopting it and making it
| very popular. For design standards on the physical layout of
| components, individual component manufacturers stand to benefit
| the most because they can sell upgrades. The system integrator
| (HP/Dell/Etc) is unlikely to push for them as they want to just
| sell you a brand new device.
| geophile wrote:
| 3:2 display. WTF?!
| ranger207 wrote:
| The 3:2 display was my favorite part of my Surface. I'm
| considering this laptop so that I can get 3:2 and also be able
| to repair it when something fails, unlike my Surface
| moneywoes wrote:
| What's the catch? Sounds too good to be true
| luke2m wrote:
| It all depends on this company surviving
| pjerem wrote:
| Even if you never get the opportunity to upgrade or replace
| parts, the price per spec seems really honest.
| bpye wrote:
| The chances seem good that some upgrades will be possible
| to make as a third party too, maybe not a new motherboard -
| though I wouldn't be _that_ surprised to see somewhat put
| an ARM SoC in there - but the ports are based on USB-C and
| it's definitely reasonable for someone to design their own.
| elif wrote:
| IMO Samsung is taking laptops to 2.0, making them as functional
| and ergonomic as phones, and after apple follows, this will
| look like the very best 1.0 laptop.
| candiddevmike wrote:
| Echoing the other feedback here--I thought it would be cheaper
| too. The DIY edition where you have to bring your own components
| is at least double the price of a slightly slower laptop with RAM
| and storage included. I was expecting the DIY to start at
| $300-400, the current price point is far too high for unproven
| build quality.
| neolog wrote:
| The price point seems fine to me. These systems are for
| professionals, so they're competing with MacBook Pro, not
| budget vendors. The same should apply to Pine64 and Purism,
| though they might not realize it yet.
| elric wrote:
| They're similarly priced to Thinkpads, and they have similar
| specs. I'd agree that the price seems fine. The warranty
| seems pretty limited (1 year!), businesses won't be happy
| about that. Hell, EU mandates a minimum of 2 year warranty
| for consumer goods.
|
| I'm overall very impressed with their offering and the
| progress they've made, but I hope it will be refined in the
| future.
| lilactown wrote:
| I'd be OK paying a premium for more modularity. I'm curious
| what the support for things that I can't upgrade will be like
| if I want to run Linux.
| boudin wrote:
| The possibility to upgrade and repair easily must have been
| quite a bit of engineering upfront. It's also quite a niche
| laptop, so I guess there's less saving at scale than the big
| players in this market.
| kitsunesoba wrote:
| Also, that screen panel probably wasn't cheap. Its ratio is
| unusual for consumer products so it's likely a somewhat low-
| volume part, and its high resolution, wide gamut, and high
| brightness likely bump its price up as well. Normally in
| $300-$400 laptops you're getting a low resolution display
| with a truly horrible TN panel or low-end IPS panel with
| mediocre color and brightness so low it's difficult to use in
| even a well-daylight-lit room (200-300 nits).
| neatze wrote:
| compelled to buy because of blank keyboard, have been using das
| keyboard with blank keys for ~8 years.
| NiceWayToDoIT wrote:
| I just hope they made unbreakable hinges
| nrp wrote:
| The hinges are end user replaceable in case they ever wear out!
| CarelessExpert wrote:
| US only. I am a sad panda...
| nrp wrote:
| We're adding Canada in the next few weeks and additional
| countries before the end of the year.
| Swinx43 wrote:
| Looks like the site is down. There must be an insane amount of
| traffic hitting it.
| luke2m wrote:
| Back up now
| the_arun wrote:
| Seems very expensive
| wackro wrote:
| You have to factor the cost of this laptop + cost of future
| upgrades vs the cost of a Dell/Macbook/whatever + its
| inevitable replacement.
|
| If it wasn't cheaper then they wouldn't have much of a business
| model.
| 4cao wrote:
| An excellent idea. I sincerely hope you succeed.
|
| 1. Would be good to know more about the UEFI on it1, in
| particular:
|
| - Whose implementation will you be using? (AMI? Insyde?)
|
| - Will it expose the all the settings to the user?
|
| - Will it be easily flashable (via software)?
|
| - Is there going to be an easily accesible "alt-disable" mode for
| ME or, if not, an equivalent solution (e.g. the ability to leave
| it in manufacturing mode on the ordered unit)?
|
| (2. Here I wanted to ask about Thunderbolt compatibility but this
| question has been answered already2, and the answer is: "maybe.")
|
| 3. What do you mean by the pre-order being open to the US only?
| Specifically, can I pay with a non-US issued credit card as long
| as I provide a shipping address in the US (forwarder's)?
|
| 1) Also asked here by another person:
| https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27143526
|
| 2) https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27143958
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