[HN Gopher] Ask HN: How to negotiate continuing to work remotely?
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Ask HN: How to negotiate continuing to work remotely?
Hi HN. Like many of you I am working remotely due to COVID. I want
to continue working remotely, but my job wants me in the office
next month. How would you negotiate this with your employer? Have
any of you already had this conversation? How did it go?
Author : megasquid
Score : 77 points
Date : 2021-05-11 21:09 UTC (1 hours ago)
| randomopining wrote:
| Here's what I'm thinking.
|
| 1. Have value - the market is hot, you have 1-2 years+ at your
| job and know the codebase. Replacing you would cost them a good
| amount, they'd have to train a new person, etc.
|
| 2. Have respect - they know you get the job done and stick to
| your word.
|
| 3. Truly don't give a f*k - have savings and know that you could
| get another job in a few months if you needed to.
|
| If you have those, I seriously don't know how you can fail.
| Unless it's like a 300k+/year hedge fund job where they want
| everybody there for the culture etc.
| perlgeek wrote:
| Key to a negotiation is understanding what the other party wants
| (and what you want, of course).
|
| WHY do they want you to work on premise? Wanting your presence is
| just a means to an end. There could be many reasons, like:
|
| * They think it's easier to control how much somebody works if
| it's on premise
|
| * it might be easier to manage
|
| * it might be inertia
|
| * they think it's more efficient
|
| * somebody is trying to exert control, or demonstrate to a
| higher-up that they can do so
|
| ... and so on. You should first try to understand where they are
| coming from, and then you can try to argue your case, framing it
| in a way that they can get most of their underlying motivation.
|
| Also, it helps to know in advance what you are willing to give up
| and what not (are you willing to walk away if you don't reach an
| agreement? what compromises would be acceptable to you?)
| CardenB wrote:
| I think this is a significant part of the problem that has
| prompted the question.
|
| It would be really helpful to have some insight into what is
| driving the move back to the office from people on HN.
| heavyset_go wrote:
| > _It would be really helpful to have some insight into what
| is driving the move back to the office from people on HN._
|
| I've posted about one of the reasons that some employers are
| itching to get their employers back in the office here[1].
|
| [1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27011439
| mturmon wrote:
| Nice comment. See if you can address in some way what their
| issue is, i.e., if it's an "easy to manage" question, maybe
| there's a fig leaf to address it. (E.g., I'll be present on
| slack or whatever with a short reaction time during business
| hours, or whatever).
|
| Here's another viewpoint: sure, the company may be "giving
| something up" letting you WFH. But, there are also positives
| for you and them in terms of productivity, health, etc. Clarify
| that it's a change, but change happens, and that the positives
| will outweigh the negatives.
| swader999 wrote:
| Make yourself indispensable. Crank out quality code at a rate
| above your pay level. Or offer to work on call hours that no one
| else wants to that really don't cost you much to commit to.
| codegeek wrote:
| You can negotiate if you have leverage. Are you really good at
| what you do ? Are you able to show that wfh doesn't impact your
| performance and you are doing same or even better since wfh ? Are
| you trustworthy who knows how to get shit done and doesn't need
| to be supervised all the time ? If yes to most of these, you
| could talk to management and see what's possible. Otherwise,
| tough.
| ineptech wrote:
| I manage people and have some advice.
|
| Start with, "I'd like to be converted to full remote, what's the
| process for that?" The answer is probably "I don't know but I
| don't think it would fly." Insist that your manager ask up the
| chain for an official answer.
|
| If the answer is "nope", next say: "I'm not comfortable returning
| to the office for health reasons. Will I be fired?" This is two-
| pronged:
|
| a) it introduces private healthcare decisions, a legally fraught
| topic they do not want to deal with. Is it legal to fire someone
| for refusing to return to the office despite health concerns?
| Probably, but no one knows for sure and your employer does not
| want to be the test case. (If they ask, "what health concerns?"
| remind them that's private. Don't invent a fictitious medically-
| fragile aunt.)
|
| b) It may force them to confront the fact that they will lose
| people over this. They very likely think of wfh as a perk,
| something they can decide by fiat without consequence. If no one
| quits over it, that's exactly what it will be.
|
| If they stick to their guns, it's time to look for another job I
| suppose. If they have some explanation for why wfh is bad
| ("productivity is down, look at this graph", or "the value of
| hallway conversations" or whatever) I wouldn't bother arguing
| unless it's a small enough company that you can argue with the
| person who made the decision.
| rizpanjwani wrote:
| Playing devil's advocate: as a business/employer why would I
| continue to pay you your current first-world salary rather than
| find someone top-notch for 1/3 your salary in India, or any other
| English speaking country with a lower cost of living?
| dougmwne wrote:
| Because clear communication is the #1 skill for 99% of
| employees. If they could have outsourced the role, they already
| would have.
| adamnemecek wrote:
| Time zone differences are bad.
| LAC-Tech wrote:
| I'm a remote contractor, and my policy is to essentially work
| my clients time zone. Right now I'm 11am-7pm (I'm in NZ,
| they're mostly in Sydney, Australia).
|
| For a while my team was all in Malaysia, so I did 2pm-10pm.
|
| Hell for the right contract I'd work as far east as texas,
| mon-fri 10am-6pm for them, tues-sat 5am-1pm for me.
|
| No one asks me to do this, but it just makes life easier, and
| clients like knowing that I'm working normal hours and will
| pick up the phone.
| gnulinux wrote:
| There are software engs in Mexico etc.
| cowanon22 wrote:
| There are high quality workers everywhere in the world, but
| they are also expensive. You generally get what you pay for -
| the skilled developers in others countries are also smart
| enough to find a better deal if they are underpaid. The 1/3
| price workers are not at the same level, and quite frankly
| often overpaid compared to their relative productivity.
| leipert wrote:
| There are many advantages to remote/home office for employers.
| Even if you just hire in your country, you can save a lot on
| office space, costs for niceties in the office (coffee, food,
| etc).
| nzmsv wrote:
| To play devil's advocate to your devil's advocate: why haven't
| you been doing this already for the past 5 years?
| closeparen wrote:
| Presumably because they feel it's not worth the downsides of
| working remotely.
|
| Put another way: if they won't do a remote workforce for a
| 66% discount, why would they go for it at a smaller discount?
| NKosmatos wrote:
| If I accepted a (negotiable) pay cut and/or agreed to forfeit
| some of the company benefits, would you allow me to WFH instead
| of hiring a cheaper engineer?
| vb6sp6 wrote:
| I'd tell them that if people were fungible, my non-first world
| counterpart makes as much money as I do :)
| WrtCdEvrydy wrote:
| "Since we're not requiring vaccinations, will the company be
| paying a 5 million dollar life insurance policy for my family as
| beneficiaries? I'm fine dying but I like to put a price on my own
| life"
|
| This is what I would say if I worked at a place which actually
| wanted people to come back to the office.
| paiute wrote:
| So you're not vaccinated?
| WrtCdEvrydy wrote:
| I am, but the organization isn't requiring it, so we can't
| guarantee herd immunity.
|
| Edit: It's a moot point because the management are the ones
| driving the "safety above all, stay in your houses" strategy.
| [deleted]
| mynameishere wrote:
| On the contrary, OSHA all but nixed such requirements:
|
| _If you require your employees to be vaccinated as a condition
| of employment (i.e., for work-related reasons), then any
| adverse reaction to the COVID-19 vaccine is work-related._
|
| https://www.natlawreview.com/article/osha-s-new-guidance-rec...
| [deleted]
| o-__-o wrote:
| Good luck proving you caught sars in the office and not going
| to the super market or in your own home.
| erik_seaberg wrote:
| Wouldn't life insurance cover disease no matter where you
| caught it? I thought they only exclude suicide, war,
| committing crimes, and maybe dangerous sports.
| jokethrowaway wrote:
| Workplace life insurance generally covers you when you die
| on the job
| chrisseaton wrote:
| > will the company be paying a 5 million dollar life insurance
| policy for my family as beneficiaries?
|
| Isn't life insurance a standard part of employment benefits?
|
| So, yes, they will be.
| WrtCdEvrydy wrote:
| Usually, but that's usually a 2x current yearly pay rate and
| it's usually capped at 100k.
|
| A 5 million dollar life insurance is a "key person" policy...
| if it's some important to the business that I be on site
| during a health emergency, they can keep half of the max 10
| million and my family can get the rest.
| chrisseaton wrote:
| > it's usually capped at 100k
|
| That's a pretty crappy life insurance policy. I wouldn't
| want my wife having to recreate an independent life on a
| runway of just 100k.
|
| I'm not a big shot, but I'm set up so that if I die my wife
| won't have to worry about work for a very long time. These
| policies probably aren't as expensive as you think they
| are.
| o-__-o wrote:
| A 10 mil life insurance policy would require underwriting
| and, assuming you are healthy, will run between $60k and
| $120k a year. As a faceless corporate board member, why not
| just let you flounder while instructing management to find
| an engineer that is not as expensive?
|
| I think inflation is gonna bite a lotta people in the near
| future
| chrisseaton wrote:
| > A 10 mil life insurance policy would require
| underwriting and, assuming you are healthy, will run
| between $60k and $120k a year.
|
| That's bonkers - a PS10 million policy was quoted to me
| at PS4.5k a year.
| aaronax wrote:
| Do you carry a normal $5,000,000 life insurance policy?
| WrtCdEvrydy wrote:
| We carry a standard 2x Yearly Pay Rate but it's capped at
| 100k.
| vb6sp6 wrote:
| I work for a very small company so when they start talking about
| coming back I give them some form of "not gonna happen from me"
| in a joking and light-hearted manner.
|
| I've done this specifically to "anchor" my position. I've heard
| that others are saying "2-3 days at home" which seems foolish
| since that will be instantly whittled down to 2 days, and then
| fridays only, and then fridays only unless there is a big project
| (and there will always be a big project).
|
| If we ever get to a serious "why aren't you coming back" then we
| can discuss the reasons:
|
| 1. I dont like the commute and you dont like it when i am late
|
| 2. I'm working more hours since I'm not taking an hour lunch each
| day. I'm also not watching the clock trying to beat the evening
| rush. (you should have the numbers to back this up)
|
| 3. "butts in seats" is dumb. You aren't dumb and I'm not done. We
| accomplished everything we set out to do in the last year with 0
| butts in seat
|
| 4. The office has a ton of non-work related distractions. While I
| do enjoy the social aspects, I have a distraction free
| environment here which has allowed me to focus on some larger
| tasks such as completing project x and y.
|
| 5. Customers are never at our site. The only visitors we have are
| paper salesmen and dental hygienists (see #4) and i am tired of
| telling them, politely, to go fuck themselves
|
| Unfortunately if they make employment conditional on in office
| you have to be willing to walk away. They might counter but you
| should be ready to leave if it gets to this point.
|
| Good Luck
| pgt wrote:
| You can't negotiate without options. You have to be willing to
| walk away, and the only way to do that is to gather options.
| x0x0 wrote:
| You should make a decision tree.
|
| eg is hybrid something you would be willing to do? Your boss?
| Your employer?
|
| You're pretty junior, however, so I'm not sure you really have a
| strong position if you can't come to an agreement.
|
| The best negotiating tactic is a job offer, though you don't need
| to threaten. just be prepared for them to say ok.
| rconti wrote:
| My 5k+ person tech employer has basically said anyone who wants
| to work remote will be able to. The argument seems to be that it
| won't be possible to competitively hire/retain if remote is not
| an option.
| xtracto wrote:
| > The argument seems to be that it won't be possible to
| competitively hire/retain if remote is not an option.
|
| This is the key. Companies that don't understand this soon will
| understand it later.
| NKosmatos wrote:
| All these months that you've been working remotely has your
| efficiency/amount of work/evaluation remained the same? If yes
| then you can use this as a valid and measurable point for your
| discussion with your manager. Try to collect actual data (emails,
| messages, deadlines, quality...) clearly showing that while you
| were WFH. As others have suggested, have a plan B during the
| discussion/negotiations. Can you offer a few days every month?
| Are you willing to loose any benefits or raises for a couple of
| years? What about equipment? You have to give something to the
| "stubborn" employers that don't see the benefits of remote
| working, especially for specific jobs that can be performed from
| a computer anywhere on earth :-) Hope you succeed!
| heavyset_go wrote:
| Make it clear that you have, live with, or take care of someone
| with health conditions that make you worry for your own health or
| someone else's.
|
| It also helps to have an offer from a company that can meet your
| needs if your current employer won't.
| xtracto wrote:
| I was in an executive position at a startup that wouldn't move to
| full work from home. I quit and moved to another startup that
| will let me work from home. In the end it was higher salary,
| lower responsibilities and the ability to work form anywhere.
| Best decision I could have made.
| abfan1127 wrote:
| I've been having this conversation for the last 9 months with my
| employer. I set the tone early that I:
|
| 1. routinely and mostly work with people in other states. 2.
| continue to perform as good if not better at home. 3. my home-
| office setup is as good if not better than in-office.
|
| I let him know I have zero interest in returning to commuting
| 30-40 minutes each way to call another state.
|
| I'd start the conversation as soon as possible. highlight the
| benefits for the company. highlight that you've honored his/her
| trust and represented the team well.
| dbenny wrote:
| CTO at Markforged here. If you can't work it out with your
| employer hit us up. We're hiring remote software engineers. We'll
| ship you a printer so you can dev from home. Good luck! Like a
| lot of other commenters have posted - you have options.
| bityard wrote:
| A printer?
| ska wrote:
| 3D printer I presume.
| yeahboats wrote:
| They're a 3d printing company.
| tsukikage wrote:
| I will be starting that conversation with my boss later this
| week. At the end of the day, I think the key thing is you need to
| be fully prepared to move on if negotiations fail and the current
| job doesn't deliver what you are after.
|
| For myself, I have enough buffer and leads that I am confident I
| can get somewhere fully remote or at least closer to home before
| the savings get uncomfortably low, and so that's my red line now
| - one way or another, I'm not doing the two-hour commute again,
| it's simply not worth it; I'd rather take a pay cut to keep the
| life I've become used to over lockdown.
|
| YMMV, but IMO if you're not prepared to move on and your boss
| senses this, the negotiation will end right there.
| throw14082020 wrote:
| Absolutely, people talk about mindset, and this is it. You
| should be prepared to walk away from a bad deal: going back
| into the office.
|
| However, don't reveal things like "youre willing to compromise
| on salary to work from home". I've made a lot of concessions
| when I really want something, and thinking back, I didn't need
| to in many cases. In fact, ask for a raise in the same
| conversation. Be mentally prepared to ask for more, because you
| have done a lot more this year working from home than you have
| working in the office.
| quickthrower2 wrote:
| Never offer to be paid less for X. Even a shorter work week.
| Let them say you get paid less first (they may not) and then
| counter. I'm mainly writing this comment for me later on :-)
|
| It's simply the case not everyone wants to screw you down on
| cost. Don't assume they will. If you have every purchased a
| Mac when a pc is cheaper (or similar buying the brand when
| generic is cheaper) or paid more for the pizza from the
| restaurant you love, you'll know what I mean.
|
| In fact if the pizza place says "sorry delivery only due to
| COVID so pizzas are half price" I'd think "huh... what's
| wrong with their pizza?"
| youeseh wrote:
| Good answers in your favor for following would help:
|
| 1. Are you / your team demonstrably as / more productive working
| remotely, compared to going into the office?
|
| 2. Does your company have a difficult time finding / retaining
| talent due to their policy against WFH?
| o-__-o wrote:
| >How would you negotiate this with your employer?
|
| Quit.
| Ankintol wrote:
| I've watched several people go through this conversation after a
| company made this demand. For this to succeed it seems that you
| need to be indispensable, or be part of an organized group that
| is indispensable, to the highest person in your management chain
| who is demanding a return to the office (probably the CEO). If
| that person isn't aware you're indispensable, you will have to
| try to convince them.
|
| Best of luck.
| tedivm wrote:
| There are a ton of companies hiring right now that are allowing
| ongoing remote work. If your company won't let you find one that
| will.
| GiorgioG wrote:
| My company went from freezing remote hiring 2 years prior to
| COVID 19 (because they spent tens of millions on a new HQ) to
| "Hey if you want to work remote, do what's best for you -
| obviously we've proven it can work." Companies may become more
| flexible - especially if your line of work is in demand.
|
| Just have a conversation with your manager "It's important to me
| that I can work remotely. What can you do?" If he/she says
| "Nothing, you have to come into the office" find another job.
| ska wrote:
| Approach this like any negotiation. Know what you actually want,
| and what you are willing to give up (and not). Try to determine
| what they actually want. Try and find a solution that is mostly
| positive for everyone.
| koolba wrote:
| Find another job and don't tell them anything until you have a
| firm offer. When it gets to that point tell them it's full remote
| or the highway. If they refuse, walk.
|
| If you do mention the offer after being refused your ultimatum,
| do not expect your job to be secure. You'll be a marked man as
| you've demonstrated that you're willing to walk away. Unless they
| counter with a _substantial_ enough pay bump and you have equally
| substantial faith in them upholding the agreement for the long
| term (unlikely), walk.
| RappingBoomer wrote:
| my union is working on it right nao
| gwbas1c wrote:
| I transitioned to remote a few years ago when I moved. It helped
| that my employer really liked me, and considered me
| indispensable.
|
| In my case, I started the conversation very early, almost a year
| in advance. "I just married someone who might make me move." Even
| though we didn't dwell on the discussion, the fact that I brought
| it up regularly made sure that it wasn't a surprise when I
| announced that, "I am moving and will need to work remotely."
|
| If you've already discussed how much you like working remotely
| with your manager, then it shouldn't come as a surprise that
| you're asking to remain remote.
|
| In your case, maybe consider stating that you will be in the
| office day a week? Then, when "life happens," just don't show up
| for 2-3 weeks and see what happens.
|
| When I moved, my employer set up an office for me with a group
| that I was physically close to. I showed up once a week, then due
| to a bad winter, I just didn't go in for 6 weeks. No one noticed.
| (Heck, no one noticed when I was there.) Then, the office
| situation changed and I asked to be remote full time.
|
| If you get a firm "no," then everything depends on how much
| leverage you have. If there is some major project due in the near
| future, point out that the job market is very healthy for remote
| employees and imply that you might quit without finishing your
| project. See if you can get some kind of severance package or
| retention bonus if you stay through the project _as a remote
| employee_. Otherwise, just quit when you have a new job.
| milenafagandini wrote:
| IMO employers have an irrational fear that people that work from
| home don't work at all and say its "the office culture" and being
| a team. If their opinion is already set on this, try negotiating
| half the week at the office and the other half from home. So both
| of you get the best of both worlds.
| iovrthoughtthis wrote:
| 1. the developer market is super hot right now, there are lots of
| jobs.
|
| 2. you seem a capable developer (i checked your personal
| website).
|
| i would approach the relevant contact at the company and ask if
| you are needed at the office 100% or if there is room for another
| arrangement, perhaps coming in for key meetings or a few times a
| month.
|
| if not, i would highly recommend looking for a job that supports
| you working as you'd like to work. if you can, take some holiday
| to look for and apply to job openings that allow remote work.
|
| you are working in one of the best paid professions, there should
| be little need for you to stay and work somewhere that doesn't
| support you working the best way for you.
|
| trust your gut.
|
| happy to help if i can.
| pfp wrote:
| Don't negotiate. Dictate.
|
| I'm not joking either. I tried negotiating this (pre-covid), only
| to get a "final offer" of a measly couple of remote days etc.
| Being on the spectrum, I took their word at face value, found
| another job that does 100% remote, and put in my resignation.
| Surprisingly that "absolutely final" position wasn't that final
| anymore, and they'd've rather had me remote than not at all. Had
| the new job not been a lot better substance-wise, the whole
| exercise would have been total waste of time.
|
| Of course you'll want to dictate from a position where you can
| follow your ultimatum if need be.
|
| The nearing end of Covid is where people like us can - indeed
| must - make a stand against the returning suffocating madness of
| boring commutes, noisy open plan offices, incessant context
| switches; against sacrificing one's creativity, flow and personal
| space to placate the emotional instincts and biases of the
| excessively social who rarely do the heavy lifting in our sector.
|
| Stay determined and keep up the good work.
| quickthrower2 wrote:
| Companies are well accustomed to bullshitting employees, so
| many people do fall for their lies.
|
| Or they may have not been lying but just reacting to
| circumstances. They can't give everyone everything needed to
| make everyone stay if the threaten to leave but they can do it
| for the one who does actually threaten to leave.
|
| As a team lead I don't believe in convincing someone to stay if
| they took an offer. Their heart and soul has left the building!
| heavyset_go wrote:
| > _boring commutes_
|
| They're not just boring, they're dangerous and expensive,
| especially if you're commuting by car.
| [deleted]
| [deleted]
| the_gipsy wrote:
| I'm about to move out before vaccination levels are high enough
| to enforce returning to the office. I have enough savings-
| cushion, I'd collect unemployment, and there are plenty of remote
| offers.
|
| I'm very stubborn on it, because to me it's very easy. Home vs
| Office is a very hot and polarized topic. It's easy enough to
| please both type of workers, at least in IT. If C-level
| management is incapable of compromising on this, then that's not
| my problem, fortunately.
| camhenlin wrote:
| It seems like nearly all tech companies these days are moving to
| fully remote hiring. Tell your manager that you're staying remote
| indefinitely or you'll be beginning the search for a new job.
| You've already had the last year to prove how productive of a
| remote worker you are. Bonus for you: tech industry salaries are
| on a massive upswing at the moment - if you do get a shiny new
| remote job, chances are you'll also be able to grab a pretty
| sweet raise as well.
| twobitshifter wrote:
| I would like to know as well. Depending on the size of the
| company it may be easier to get special treatment. We've heard
| from top-down that we need to be back in the office and there's
| been no special treatment given other than some allusions to a
| hybrid workweek compromise. The only way I think it would be
| possible at a large company would be to engage in some sort of
| wfh soft-strike collectively. With enough employees, leadership
| will listen. I think that if you don't organize you'll have to go
| along with the rest of the company. This is of course something
| dangerous to even discuss if you value your job.
|
| On an individual level, JP Morgan will not let even their top
| employees wfh just because it will weaken their stance.
| codingdave wrote:
| > This is of course something dangerous to even discuss if you
| value your job.
|
| If you cannot even talk about your work environment, that must
| be quite the dystopian workplace. Most decent places I've
| worked, that is one of the most common topics when talking to
| your boss. Maybe those talks don't go anywhere, but if it is a
| taboo topic, it might be better to work elsewhere.
| daniellarusso wrote:
| I think parent meant coordinating a labor strike, as far as
| dangerous topics of work discussion.
| o-__-o wrote:
| It's almost like JP Morgan has a vested interest in the success
| of commercial real estate. HMMMMMMM
| IThoughtYouGNU wrote:
| Threaten to leave and leave if they force the issue.
| Ocerge wrote:
| Don't think you need to negotiate at all. I have no plans to work
| remotely when my office reopens (I hate it, it's bad for my
| mental health), but without even looking for _any_ job, I get 3-5
| emails a day about remote gigs all over the US just by being on
| LinkedIn and having a software dev job. If they say no, just
| leave, somebody will take you.
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