[HN Gopher] I mailed an AirTag and tracked its progress
___________________________________________________________________
I mailed an AirTag and tracked its progress
Author : miles
Score : 343 points
Date : 2021-05-11 18:12 UTC (4 hours ago)
(HTM) web link (www.intego.com)
(TXT) w3m dump (www.intego.com)
| ChuckMcM wrote:
| Time to tape these things to packages on the doorstep to see
| where the thieves take them.
| alkonaut wrote:
| I'm thinking of adding one to my bike. I wonder if they'd be
| completely cut off from radio if hidden under some metal?
| paxys wrote:
| So now along with an expensive package they also get an
| expensive airtag for free
| IdiocyInAction wrote:
| I doubt the police will give a shit.
| Etheryte wrote:
| As seen in the glitter bomb experiment [0], many package
| thieves simply drive a few blocks, open the package and then
| toss whatever isn't valuable. Not that likely it will give you
| much useful to go on.
|
| [0] https://youtu.be/xoxhDk-hwuo
| mobilemidget wrote:
| Mark Rober made some nice YouTube/device for those porch
| pirates.
|
| https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h4T_LlK1VE4
| callalex wrote:
| The police won't even recover a recently stolen iPhone with
| Find My audibly screaming from the front door.
| ChuckMcM wrote:
| This seems so sad to me.
| tpmx wrote:
| In my experience, the willingness of the police to do that
| seems very random. Kinda regardless of country/region.
| spaceywilly wrote:
| "The point of these alerts is to let people know if they're being
| tracked surreptitiously by someone who placed an AirTag in their
| bag, their pocket, or their car. Three days is already much too
| long, but the fact that no alerts are occurring after four days
| is disturbing."
|
| As I understand this feature monitors the signal strength of
| nearby airtags to identify ones that are travelling with you. In
| this case, if the person left it on a table at their house, they
| would constantly be moving in and out of range, so it's not
| moving with them.
|
| "It's also not clear how often AirTag locations update. I gave my
| partner an AirTag last week for her to take when she went on an
| errand, driving about 20 miles from home. Since she has an
| iPhone, I expected to see frequent updates in the Find My app,
| but that wasn't the case."
|
| Again, this is probably by design. If it worked as the author
| expected and gave you frequent updates, it could easily be used
| to track an unsuspecting person's location. This design seems
| much better. It still will give you enough information to locate
| your lost item, but it is not enough to track down the location
| of a single iPhone user.
| avianlyric wrote:
| > "It's also not clear how often AirTag locations update. I
| gave my partner an AirTag last week for her to take when she
| went on an errand, driving about 20 miles from home. Since she
| has an iPhone, I expected to see frequent updates in the Find
| My app, but that wasn't the case."
|
| This is almost certainly a product of iOS battery management.
| Presumably there was only one iPhone in range during the drive
| (GF's). If the iPhone isn't plugged in, then it generally
| doesn't update its precise location unless it detect
| "substantial movement", which is normally triggered by thing
| like switching cell tower.
|
| Net result is the AirTags location only get updated when the
| nearby iPhone thinks it's power efficient to do so.
| anonAndOn wrote:
| Stunning. Apple has built a surveillance system that no
| government in the world could ever afford. Despots, dictators and
| duly elected presidents around the world are rejoicing at how
| cheap and easy it is to keep tabs on your political enemies,
| opposition leaders and those meddlesome human rights campaigners.
| Put a small tag on their cars, their briefcases, their kids'
| lunchboxes and just watch where the little tags go. Got a secret
| meeting with your fellow revolutionaries? Better hope _nobody_
| with an iPhone passed nearby on the trip to, from and during the
| meeting.
| jaywalk wrote:
| Yep, AirTag has definitely enabled all of that. No other,
| better options exist, AirTag is the first way for the baddies
| to covertly track people.
|
| Oh, unless the people they want to track _also_ have an iPhone,
| because then they 'll get alerted to the tracking. Damn!
| anonAndOn wrote:
| Is there another tiny tag that automatically pairs with a
| _billion_ mobile listening stations? If so, where can I buy
| it?
| nerbert wrote:
| Who said it was cheap? There's clearly an opportunity for Apple
| here. Government premium plan: 1000$ per tag per day to disable
| the alerts.
| _fzslm wrote:
| i get your point, but surely despots, dictators and presidents
| would already have access to GPS tracking technology? i thought
| those things were basically commodities by now
| temp667 wrote:
| Most just grab location data from your cell phone which is
| already tracked.
| _fzslm wrote:
| i don't mean Tile and such devices, i mean the ones where
| you can put a SIM in it and have them text GPS co-ords.
| something like https://www.onlinespyshop.co.uk/sms-tiny-
| tracker/
|
| i know that AirTags are way more accessible, but i just
| mean these kinds of tools have been available to
| adversaries for a while.
|
| (i also don't really know how well these trackers really
| work.)
| anonAndOn wrote:
| How big is a GPS tracker? Can I slip one into a dog
| collar/belt/shoe tread without anyone noticing? Will it still
| work where there's no cell signal but you still have WiFi?
| fastball wrote:
| https://www.amazon.com/GPS-Trackers/b?node=617650011
| anonAndOn wrote:
| I'd love to see how you casually disguise any of those
| sewn into a dog collar! Pics, please!
| fastball wrote:
| Right back at ya with pics of an AirTag sewn into a dog
| collar, lmao.
| anonAndOn wrote:
| Challenge accepted! I'll order one and post a pic of an
| airtag hidden in my dog's dog collar if you post one of a
| GPS tracker hidden in your dog's collar. We'll then
| compare which one is not even noticeable and which one is
| a giant block hanging off your dog's neck. Deal?
| willio58 wrote:
| Well, not really. Apple has built in specific ways of
| monitoring un-wanted tracking. I have to assume the officials
| you mentioned have already had more flexible and purpose-built
| means of covertly tracking others for years if not decades now.
| fastball wrote:
| I honestly don't understand the concern about being stalked at
| all.
|
| Ya'll honestly think an AirTag is the best way for a stalker to
| track you?
| katbyte wrote:
| I think most people haven't considered stalking like that and
| don't realize how many cheap and small devices are out there
| already.
| martini333 wrote:
| best way? maybe not.
|
| very easy and cheap; yes
| fastball wrote:
| I don't see how there could be much overlap in the Venn
| diagram of "people that are determined to stalk you" and
| "people that can't afford a $30 GPS tracker but can afford a
| $30 AirTag (even though they apparently own an iPhone)".
| avianlyric wrote:
| Scary thing is the cheaper trackers already exist:
|
| https://www.amazon.ca/Real-time-Worldwide-Coverage-
| Portable-...
|
| But the ease of use of AirTags is undeniable.
| artur_makly wrote:
| damn. Apparently its not advised for your dog-tracking:
| https://www.imore.com/why-doesnt-apple-want-you-track-your-d...
| barbazoo wrote:
| > In short, while you can put an AirTag on your dog or cat,
| Apple does not encourage it to cover its own butt in case of
| legal action.
|
| I don't get the "not advised" part from that page. It just
| sounds like they're just not advertising this articular use
| case.
| barbegal wrote:
| If you have an existing Bluetooth device like a Tile then you can
| reprogram it to emulate an AirTag and Apple users will help you
| track it https://www.theverge.com/2021/3/4/22313461/openhaystack-
| appl...
|
| The worrying part is this could be combined with countermeasures
| to prevent the anti stalking measure from working and even
| prevent it being discovered by a bug detector. Thankfully Apple
| has a lot of visibility of the system so presumably would be able
| to track down bad actors and aid law enforcement.
| 1024core wrote:
| Is there anything in the Android ecosystem that interoperates
| with AirTags?
| [deleted]
| momothereal wrote:
| Sort of; if you find a lost AirTag, you can get the contact
| info from an Android device via NFC:
| https://youtu.be/ehv3zQAa9zM?t=528
| knolan wrote:
| You can use NFC on an Android device to read the owners details
| on a lost AirTag.
|
| The firmware was recently dumped so maybe someone will figure
| out a way to build an alternative network to Find my.
| boplicity wrote:
| >anyone who is in the presence of an AirTag that has been
| separated from its owner for three days will get an alert on
| their iPhone
|
| That sounds exactly like extortion.
|
| "Buy an iPhone, or we won't tell you whether people are tracking
| your every movement."
|
| This is _screaming_ for _real_ regulation.
|
| Yikes.
| flowerlad wrote:
| When moved, any AirTag separated for a period of time from the
| person who registered it will make a sound to alert those
| nearby. If you find an AirTag after hearing it make a sound,
| you can use any device that has NFC, such as an iPhone or
| Android phone, to see if its owner marked it as lost and help
| return it.
|
| https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT212227
| doublerabbit wrote:
| How long until they tag these to our ears and assign us a
| personal number? With Elon's offer of servitude[1] on Mars and
| these, we may encounter George Oswells 1984 pretty soon.
|
| Airtags, just another piece of e-waste to poison the planet.
|
| [1] https://twitter.com/PicklePunchD/status/1217991463503446016
|
| How long until Apple decides to discontinue the tags on their
| current generation of devices forcing you to upgrade?
| dkdbejwi383 wrote:
| There are a few interesting things you say here. I won't
| comment on the others, but the e-waste one is a valid point.
|
| I wonder how many more of these have sold than is "necessary"
| just because they are cheap and nifty, only for the purchaser
| to get bored with it after a while and forget about it?
| doublerabbit wrote:
| And to add, how long will it last until Apple forces you to
| upgrade your iDevice because "it's not compatible with this
| version. Not like that's ever happened before.
| alkonaut wrote:
| Something something covid vaccines and 5G base stations
| inopinatus wrote:
| Vincent van Gogh. Born 2043, Brabant, Netherlands. Child
| prodigy in arts, sciences, and engineering. Graduated from
| Erasmus University, Rotterdam in 2055 with joint masters in
| particle physics and fine arts. Exhibited at the Louvre at age
| 14. Discovered a universal nontoxic perpetual energy source at
| 16 and joined staff of the Huge Monad Collider that same year
| as doctoral researcher in functional cosmology. There, proved
| that spacetime is lazily evaluated and that speed of light
| arises as input latency in underlying algebra. Disappeared
| November 23rd, 2063, leaving behind notes for a "personal
| temporal debugger" and a diatribe, hidden in a stencil of rats,
| railing against the prevailing culture of universal citizen
| tracing. Last sighted in background of art documentary, _Exit
| Through The Gift Shop_ (2010); current whereabouts within
| continuum unknown, assumed to be still at large. Eartags never
| found.
| macintux wrote:
| > How long until Apple decides to discontinue the tags on their
| current generation of devices forcing you to upgrade?
|
| I'm confused: what would require an upgrade?
|
| Unless iPhones stop supporting Bluetooth, which obviously won't
| happen, or ultra wideband, which is not impossible but very
| unlikely, these devices will work with iPhones effectively
| forever.
| Odenwaelder wrote:
| I, for one, don't like losing my keys or umbrella and really
| like AirTags.
| Dylan16807 wrote:
| Do you need the location tracking for that, or just the
| ability to hunt within wireless range of your phone?
| doublerabbit wrote:
| I've not-often lost my keys nor umbrella, do you live in a
| castle? How often do you loose those things?
|
| And now your tagging your items just for apple to see besides
| no one has answered how does that justify the e-waste these
| tags produces?
|
| Seeing as I've been rated-limited.
|
| > Not sure what you mean there, but Apple doesn't get to know
| where anything is.
|
| To say Apple doesn't get to see any information, pfft. I
| trust them as much as any thief. Can you prove this?
|
| > Something something covid vaccines and 5G base stations
|
| Not at all. I'm hoping to get my covid vaccine, have you?
| mehphp wrote:
| Do you have a phone, a computer or even a relatively new
| car?
|
| I presume you do. You are already being tracked.
| doublerabbit wrote:
| Totally yeah, no car though. I walk in to a shop and I'm
| already tagged. I walk in to the streets, I'm tagged.
| There's no hiding from surveillance. But now to allow a
| tag report back where your X is located is ridiculous.
|
| Why you want to submit to a heat map of your objects, and
| what you do with them, I don't know. Call me cynical. I
| pity the people who feel its a fantastic toy when
| normally it's the same people criticizing about X FANG
| company thing. Yet they go and buy the recent crud they
| release. Talk about hypocritical.
| FabHK wrote:
| > tagging your items just for apple to see
|
| Not sure what you mean there, but Apple doesn't get to know
| where anything is.
| chris37879 wrote:
| I have ADHD and live in an apartment <1000sqft and have
| lost my keys moments after finding them, but before I made
| it out the door. My second most frequently used command
| with my smart home setup is "Where's my phone?". I ordered
| 4 air tags. As to the e-waste concern, I'm trusting Apple's
| recycling program to handle them for me once they're no
| longer in service. It's admittedly not ideal for the
| environment, but I think it's better than the companies
| that sell disposable commercial trackers that are intended
| to never be recovered.
| ribosometronome wrote:
| That might make you the only person to have never misplaced
| your keys. It's not exactly uncommon. In the above
| scenario, finding of an umbrella prevents waste as
| otherwise you need a new one.
| doublerabbit wrote:
| I'm guity there, never is the wrong word, so I've edited
| it to not-often. Not Often have I lost such possessions.
|
| But still, a gimmick which those with will get bored
| within the next six months and will be left with a thing
| that will constantly tag it's position.
| wlesieutre wrote:
| Regarding "my friend left the envelope on a table in his house"
| not producing the "AirTag found moving with you" alert, this is
| obviously by design. You get the alert if the tag is planted on
| your person/vehicle and following you around, not if it happens
| to be sitting still in a location that you frequent.
|
| The alternative is being constantly bombarded with alerts because
| other residents of an apartment building also own AirTags, which
| is not going to be useful to anyone.
| andrewmunsell wrote:
| Yeah, I just left my dog (her leash has an AirTag on it) with
| my parents on 5/8, and presumably the leash was sitting in
| their home somewhere.
|
| They took her to the dog park on 5/9, and got the notification
| that an AirTag was following them. So I was gone for a little
| over 24 hours, but they only got the notification after they
| took the leash with them for a couple hours and then went home.
|
| https://imgur.com/a/RawzEP9
|
| I believe the 3 days is for the audible beeping when it's
| moved, but they haven't seen that yet and they marked it as
| "pause safety alerts" so I'm not sure if it'll still beep.
|
| Edit: Also, I have a bag at home with an AirTag and it's
| constantly updating location, so presumably one of my neighbors
| has an iPhone that's nearby. Kind of cool that it updates so
| frequently, and I'd say it was worth replacing my Tiles because
| of it.
| stu2b50 wrote:
| Curious, do you find an Airtag on your dog's leash to be
| effective?
| andrewmunsell wrote:
| It's just to see what they're doing with her, not really to
| track the dog if she runs away (she's a pug, she doesn't
| move far or fast). My parents are on my Find My Friends so
| it's not like I can't see where they are, but it's just
| peace of mind to know if the dog is with them.
|
| I used to have a Tile and the AirTag is so much better with
| updating location just because the sheer number of iPhones.
| mod wrote:
| Interestingly, this is exactly the type of behavior I
| would find distasteful.
|
| If I do you the favor of watching your dog, I'm going to
| be pissed if you're spying on me during the process.
|
| I'm sure they knew about it, so I don't think it's
| unethical, just sort of ugly.
| andrewmunsell wrote:
| That's a perfectly fine opinion, but not one my family
| subscribes to. We're all on each others' Find My Friends,
| and have no problem knowing who is where. I even have
| non-blood-related friends on there, as do some of my
| other family members.
|
| It's more useful to know when someone is X minutes away
| when you're being picked up or whatever, so it's
| certainly not "ugly" to anyone that watches my dog
| either.
| nimvlaj30 wrote:
| Okay I'll ask... Did you at least get their consent
| before tracking them?
| jdminhbg wrote:
| If they're on Find My Friends, they had to consent to
| that proactively. The dog's AirTag is less accurate or
| constant than what they're providing already.
| throwaway3699 wrote:
| My whole family have this sharing on Google Maps. It's
| becoming more common.
| ygjb wrote:
| Consent isn't universal or eternal. Without commenting on
| the relationship the commenter has with their family, in
| general, whenever you give someone something that leaks
| information, it's worth letting them know and allowing
| them to make a choice.
| artificial wrote:
| The opt-in party can withdraw at any time. Here's more
| information about how it works:
| https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT201087
| rconti wrote:
| presumably it's also visible on the collar, at least if
| the subject of the tracking knows what they're looking
| for.
| echelon wrote:
| You give pervasive tracking an inch, it takes a mile. The
| overton window on privacy has shifted. It's not showing
| signs of stopping, either.
| spoonjim wrote:
| This would be weird with casual friends but families have
| their own norms.
| derptron wrote:
| Why is it ugly if they were fully aware of it? Weird
| take.
| djitz wrote:
| That's what I'm using mine for. The keychain holder blends
| in with his other tags and.. why not? I sincerely doubt
| I'll ever need to use it, but it's cost effective
| insurance.
| pugworthy wrote:
| I have bought 2 for our outside cats. I call them in
| every night around Midnight so they aren't out all night,
| and I want to use the tags to know if they are nearby.
| The challenge has been coming up with a good collar
| attachment that isn't too bulky. You can get away with a
| bit bulkier on a dog, but not on a cat.
| novok wrote:
| The tagvault seems fairly light and it protects the
| airtag more, which is important for outdoor animals:
|
| https://www.elevationlab.com/products/tagvault
| ghaff wrote:
| I suppose the answer is "Apple minimalism" but I wondered
| a bit why the tags don't have a tab with a small hole
| sticking out. It seems it would be easier (and cheaper)
| to come up with ways to attach to things. (Though I
| suppose it would also be more fragile than what they did
| for attaching to keychains.
| amelius wrote:
| A few days ago on HN there was a video of someone
| drilling a hole in an airtag at precisely the right
| location.
| ghaff wrote:
| Interesting! TBF, attaching to a keyring is the only
| obvious use case where I'd really need something like
| that and I've already ordered one of the (cheap) attach
| to keychain accessories. But love how people figure out
| this sort of thing.
| allenu wrote:
| I think you're on the right track about it being more
| fragile with a hole. Probably with wear and tear over
| time it might break apart. Much easier for Apple to
| "outsource" responsibility of attaching it to things and
| dealing with durability concerns.
| djitz wrote:
| The belkin holders are the smallest I've seen, but I
| don't believe they're in stock anywhere :\
| andrewmunsell wrote:
| This is where I'm wondering if 3rd party MFI accessories
| could come into play. I'd love to see a smaller version
| for cases like this (maybe without the U1, with a smaller
| battery) that still work on the Find My network.
| spideymans wrote:
| Heck, I'd love a less bulky AirTag attachment for humans
| as well. My AirTag key ring is by far the biggest thing
| on my keychain (even bigger than my car keys), and it's
| so stiff that it often gets caught on other things on my
| pocket when I'm pulling my keys out. That never used to
| happen before.
|
| I'm keeping an eye out for less bulky attachments online.
| Everything I've seen so far emulates Apple's bulky
| keyring design.
| geoelectric wrote:
| Yes, I was using a bluetooth based tracker I found on
| Amazon, but the slightly clunky medallion ended up
| leading to issues with her being able to clean her own
| chest, and she got tangles under it. It can be a real
| issue.
|
| So I've also been looking for a way to use an airtag
| unobtrusively. My cat isn't outdoors, but I have a big
| house and she's very old and likes to hide. I'm afraid
| someday she'll be sick or worse and I won't be able to
| find her, so something like this would make me feel a lot
| better.
| pugworthy wrote:
| I have a bunch of leather for various projects, and am
| thinking of just sewing up a tiny pouch that can tie the
| tag "flush" on the collar. Tried a few 3D printed case
| ideas, but they just add more bulk.
|
| Worst case if it falls off the caller is you just go find
| it (and come up with a better system).
| selectodude wrote:
| I just used some tape and wrapped it around the collar
| and the airtag.
| pugworthy wrote:
| Simple solution!
| selectodude wrote:
| It's one I'm happy with, though it's not all that
| elegant. Just spent $50 on a collar with a space for an
| airtag because I'm a single man with too much disposable
| income :|
| goldenkey wrote:
| Heavy duty gorilla tape. It's lightweight and even
| waterproof.
| azinman2 wrote:
| For something more real-time, I really like the Whistle that
| our dog uses. It's a GPS-tracker that uses a cellular
| connection. You do pay a monthly fee (so more expensive for
| sure than an AirTag), but if the dog is running in a field
| you can find it. It also lives on the collar and includes an
| activity monitor, which has been helpful to know in the past
| that previous dog walkers didn't really do much with the dog.
| goldenkey wrote:
| I had the Whistle 2 but it was too heavy for my cat to wear
| comfortably.
| manmal wrote:
| The alert will just trigger if the tag is away from your own
| devices. If the tag is in another location than you, then it
| should indeed trigger the alert and make a sound after three
| days, no matter what.
| floatingatoll wrote:
| The notification was described by Apple as being tied to you,
| person having an AirTag you don't know, having a Home location
| on your iPhone's "myself" contacts card, which presumably then
| also requires you to have certain System Services permissions
| to have been left enabled to allow recognition of location by
| the iPhone in question.
|
| Phrasing clumsy, but essentially: If your iPhone doesn't have a
| Home icon in Maps for your home, you might not get AirTags
| tracking protection. Someone should test, or ask Apple to
| clarify.
| xeromal wrote:
| Yeah, I'm wondering if the 3 days rule is for being around a
| certain iphone for 3 days. Otherwise, every person coming in
| contact with an old airtag would be notified as soon as they
| come in contact with it.
| bellyfullofbac wrote:
| AFAIK if the owner iPhone checks in with the tag, then
| everything's fine again.
|
| So if you're a jealous husband who wants to track your wife's
| whereabouts as she goes through the day before returning to
| your home every night, well Apple has the product for you!
|
| Or if you're stalking Cindy, just walk by her place every few
| days... until she spends the night at Peter's, but hey, your
| iPhone will tell you that, and where to find them.
| sedgjh23 wrote:
| If you're stalking someone there are effective alternatives
| with much lower exposure risk.
| djhn wrote:
| I'm hesitant to ask because of the implication, but also
| slightly afraid of not know about these threat vectors.
|
| So what methods are you talking about?
| ghaff wrote:
| As others have said, there are widely available GPS
| trackers with cellular connections. There are, of course,
| also all the ways people did such things pre-GPS. i.e.
| just finding out where a person lives which is mostly
| pretty easy.
| goldenkey wrote:
| The GPS locators are heavier with shorter battery life.
| This has been my experience from GPS pet trackers. Since
| Bluetooth Low Energy does not require as much energy or
| range, the form factor is greatly decreased.
| coldtea wrote:
| > _this is obviously by design. You get the alert if the tag is
| planted on your person /vehicle and following you around, not
| if it happens to be sitting still in a location that you
| frequent._
|
| So, if some guy hides it in your bag at the airport, with the
| intention of finding where you live, and you get to your home
| within the same day, you wont be notified about it for many
| days, or possibly months, if you leave your bag stationary at
| home.
|
| Doesn't sound like a very good design.
|
| > _because other residents of an apartment building also own
| AirTags_
|
| How about just showing you a single alert (or stationary info
| page you could check optionally) "Airtag that's not yours
| travels with you, still here"?
|
| You could then ignore it at public transport (where you expect
| others with airtags to be travelling along), but you could
| start getting suspicious if you still get that a "foreign
| airtag that travelled with you is still nearby" when you're at
| your home.
| dwighttk wrote:
| I live inside a giant faraday cage, so no problem
| gruez wrote:
| >Doesn't sound like a very good design.
|
| because there has to be a trade-off between usability and
| privacy. Something following you for a few hours (max trip
| for airport to home) could be a stalker, or could just be an
| airtag on your uber driver. Excessive alerts is
| counterproductive because people eventually tune them out,
| which makes them useless.
|
| >How about just showing you a single alert (or stationary
| info page you could check optionally) "Airtag that's not
| yours travels with you, still here"?
|
| You'll get that every time you're on a subway/bus.
| [deleted]
| coldtea wrote:
| > _Excessive alerts is counterproductive because people
| eventually tune them out, which makes them useless._
|
| You don't need excessive alerts, you just a place in the UI
| that the user can check and see if there's an alert or not.
| To make it even fancier, add a red dot to the "Find My"
| icon.
|
| I don't understand why "excessive alerts" and the image of
| a constantly ringing iPhone is presented as the only
| possible way to notify the user...
|
| > _You 'll get that every time you're on a subway/bus._
|
| Yeah, so? As stated above, it could just be an entry
| "foreign airtag travelling with you" in some UI screen that
| you open and broswe -- tagged with the date and duration it
| happened. You can then blisfully ignore it (especially
| since it can also show "it's not here with you anymore"
| when you go to your destination).
| adkadskhj wrote:
| > So, if some guy hides it in your bag at the airport, with
| the intention of finding where you live, and you get to your
| home within the same day, you wont be notified about it for
| many days, or possibly months, if you leave your bag
| stationary at home.
|
| Isn't this iPhone only, too? So if you have an Android phone
| and live near people with iPhones, your location would be
| identified but you would never be notified.
| [deleted]
| ghaff wrote:
| >So, if some guy hides it in your bag at the airport
|
| Sounds like a lot of work. If I wanted to (which I don't!)
| probably easier to sneak a peek at the luggage tag. Which
| _may_ be privacy shielded but probably not and would only
| take a few seconds in any case to lift a flap up.
| aleph_naught wrote:
| It is more than just following around, you need to be followed
| home or to a known location in order to be alerted:
|
| https://youtu.be/vjLbxywixro
|
| (Unrelated, but kind of sad that I got more information on how
| airtags actually work from a bike components review channel
| than dedicated tech reviewers)
| avh02 wrote:
| so it's nice that it notifies me there's an airtag on me but
| only when i get home - however if someone's nefariously
| tracking me, at that point it's too late.
|
| If i have an Android i wouldn't even know that.
| wklauss wrote:
| Most tech reviewers publish the reviews right after the Apple
| embargo ends or just a couple of days after getting the
| product. For something like AirTags, where you want to try
| more complex usage scenarios, this is not optimal.
|
| Keep in mind the idea of "other iPhones will help you find
| your tags" was not even a thing you could test for when the
| first reviews came in, since iOS 14.5 was not out yet.
| Testing Airtags, therefore, was extremely complex for some
| edge cases and the experience was not as serendipitous as it
| would be now.
|
| It didn't help that Apple was not very open on how the anti-
| stalking features work exactly, for obvious reasons (you
| don't want people to figure out how to bypass them).
| esolyt wrote:
| Tech reviewers are too busy praising Apple and calling
| everything they make magical. There are very few real tech
| review sites that test devices based on objective criteria.
| They don't get as much traffic compared to websites like The
| Verge.
|
| The Verge still has quality content as long as you keep in
| mind almost all of their reviewers live in the US, they are
| all in the Apple ecosystem, and they wouldn't be able to talk
| their family and friends if they switched to Android anyway.
|
| They have no reason to be enthusiastic about anything that's
| not an iPhone or an iPhone accessory.
| WrtCdEvrydy wrote:
| > There are very few real tech review sites that test
| devices based on objective criteria. They don't get as much
| traffic compared to websites like The Verge.
|
| The industry has a very carrot-stick mentality. Gamers
| Nexus for example gets shit on by everyone especially when
| they call this shit out while the "real gaming" channels
| just go along with anything to get review copies.
| goldenkey wrote:
| The riser short-circuit fire hazard fiasco made me
| respect them quite heavily.
| akmarinov wrote:
| Well that's about 50% of the US market that you're
| describing and honestly the US market is the number 1
| priority for companies, followed by China. Other countries
| are faaaar behind in third+ place.
| ta1234567890 wrote:
| One thing that is inconvenient about Apple's AirTags is that you
| can't share them with other people.
|
| So for example, if a husband/wife share car keys, and the car
| keys have the wife's AirTag, but then she misplaces her purse
| with both her phone and keys, the husband won't be able to locate
| them.
|
| Another scenario is if one of them wants to put an AirTag on
| their phone, so that when they can't find it, the other person
| can help them locate it.
|
| Anyway, I'm sure there are lots of situations in which it would
| be helpful for multiple people to be able to locate the same
| AirTag, yet this is not currently possible.
| ec109685 wrote:
| Interesting they allow you to find each other's devices if you
| have shared family iCloud but not AirTags?
| francoisp wrote:
| I wonder if this is legal. I know Apple asks you to disable
| location tracking when returning devices to them for warranty.
| This could be abused by terrorists to use the postman
| nefariously...
| ezfe wrote:
| They don't ask you to disable it for the mail, they ask you
| because they can't recycle it if it's locked out.
| HunterWare wrote:
| The main complaint about it "tracking the friend" seems invalid.
| The tag isn't "moving with him", it's sitting on a counter. That
| isn't tracking, more accurately it's basically a lost tag at that
| point.
| fjni wrote:
| I think this is a great question. And I don't have an answer
| for it. I do think it's much less clear though:
|
| If I attach it to your car to find out where you're parking
| your car, according to your logic it also presumably wouldn't
| trigger. But it's still a problematic and unintended use of the
| technology.
|
| What if I merely want to find out where you live, not where you
| are at any point in time. This creates lots of problems for
| people at increased risk here that to me aren't answered
| sufficiently.
| hundchenkatze wrote:
| The difference is that a tag mailed to someone didn't follow
| them and their iPhone, it just shows up one day. In that case
| the person sending the tag obviously already knows where you
| live anyway. In your example, attaching it to someone's car
| (presumably while at work, shopping, etc) it will follow them
| home and their iPhone would see that tag the entire trip
| until they get home at which point it would notify the
| tracked person.
| tshaddox wrote:
| > In your example, attaching it to someone's car
| (presumably while at work, shopping, etc) it will follow
| them home and their iPhone would see that tag the entire
| trip until they get home at which point it would notify the
| tracked person.
|
| Okay, but is that really different than driving down a
| random street, choosing a random house with a car in the
| driveway, and thus learning that that car parks at that
| address?
|
| Knowing that the car you chose to put a tag on at the store
| later parked at a certain address is hardly that useful,
| isn't much easier than just following the car from the
| store one time, and presumably wouldn't upset most people
| because most people's security models don't rely on their
| home address being private and thus no one ever following
| their car home from the store.
| fjni wrote:
| Got it! The distinction being that the location changed
| while in the vicinity of one iphone. Thanks for clarifying!
| TeMPOraL wrote:
| So I am an evil stalker, and I want to find out where my
| target lives. I know the Target has a Spouse. I stalk both,
| and spot that Target uses an iPhone, but Spouse uses an
| Android phone. I attach the AirTag to Spouse's bag/jacket,
| in hopes they'll bring it home. With luck, from the POV of
| Target's phone, the tag will look like it just "showed up
| one day", at least for a while. End of story.
|
| As a real me, I'd hope that one could bring the tag to the
| police, and law enforcement would be able to get the
| details on the person who owns it? Assuming the answer is
| "yes", this should deter most malicious use, as even with a
| burner iPhone/Apple account, the owner of that tracker
| would be exposing a _big_ trail of their activities.
| tshaddox wrote:
| In your hypothetical scenario what have you (the stalker)
| saved other than the trouble of following one of the
| targets home once? Or placing any number of existing
| tracking devices (like a cheap smartphone) in one of
| their bags? Or, you know, looking them up in the phone
| book?
| avh02 wrote:
| you know people don't only go home. they have affairs,
| they may be undercover agents, or they may be doing
| something they're not proud of (legal or not).
| pradn wrote:
| Another scenario is putting an AirTag on the bottom of
| someone's car, waiting for them to go home, going to
| their home, and taking the AirTag off. There's more risk
| here, but it's impossible to do.
|
| Or to remove the risk, you can drain the battery til it's
| got just enough to go a few more miles. Then, it'll keep
| pinging you the location and die when it gets to their
| house. With 3 days of leeway, you don't have to be too
| exact.
|
| It's even easier if you know they aren't going to using
| their car at the destination. Like if they're going
| camping or something.
| tshaddox wrote:
| You've gained very little in that scenario over simply
| following their car home.
| [deleted]
| spaceywilly wrote:
| If the airtag is away from its owner for 3 days it will play
| an audible sound when moved, so in your use cases the airtag
| would reveal itself to the user after 3 days. That still does
| not seem ideal though, 3 days is a long time. Also, in the
| article I'm guessing it didn't chime because it was never
| moved, which also seems like something they didn't think
| about.
|
| https://www.macrumors.com/2021/04/21/airtags-play-sound-
| afte...
| barbegal wrote:
| You can very easily open the tag up and disconnect the
| wires that connect to the speaker coil so it makes no
| noise.
| mehphp wrote:
| No, in the case of attaching it to the car it is moving with
| you (and would thus trigger the alert). Your point still
| stands though that it can be used like that to find out where
| someone lives.
| Andrew_nenakhov wrote:
| I am very unhappy about this new tracking service.
|
| Scenario: sinister stalker (government agent, for example)
| attaches an airtag to my car. All iPhone users in the area will
| be happily reporting tag location and helping stalker in his
| malicious designs.
|
| How do I protect myself against this, if I am an Android user?
| katbyte wrote:
| well a government agent would just attach a real tracking
| device with cellular that does live realtime updates lol - and
| anyone who wants to track someone has far better options then
| airtags: https://www.amazon.ca/Real-time-Worldwide-Coverage-
| Portable-... or https://www.amazon.ca/Real-time-Worldwide-
| Coverage-Portable-...
|
| these have existed for a long time at reasonable prices and
| none of the have the anti stalking measures airtags do.
| IdiocyInAction wrote:
| You do know that GPS-based trackers (which are more than good
| enough for cars) have been available on Aliexpress for years?
| mvanaltvorst wrote:
| <100$ GPS car trackers that use cellular and are arguably
| better for tracking cars already exist.
| LeifCarrotson wrote:
| <$30 Bluetooth low-energy trackers (eg Tile, TrackR, Cube)
| that don't use cellular and last for years on coin cells also
| exist.
|
| Obviously, without GPS and without cellular they rely on
| being near someone with a smartphone in the crowdshared
| location system. I think Tile (prior to AirTag) was the
| biggest, they've got around 10 million sold, probably on the
| order of 1 million active users once you discount people who
| own multiple units, or replacements of previously sold Tiles,
| etc.
|
| As a Tile user, this was sufficient for my needs. If I lost
| my Tile in a public place, something like 1 in 300 people had
| the app and I'd have decent odds of getting an update in a
| couple days. I inadvertently left my bag in a coworker's car
| once, they don't have a Tile but it pinged a couple times
| during their commute as they passed other cars with Tile
| owners. But neither they nor their neighbors had Tiles, so it
| didn't give their home address. Tile doesn't make a big deal
| out of mitigating car-tracking or stalking abuses of its
| products, because it's not really big enough to be a problem.
| Now, though, there are something like 120 million iPhone
| users. I don't know how many choose to opt out of the default
| "Find My" setting, I'd guess that both that population and
| the population of people who even know it exists are both
| negligible, so I assume something like 150 in every 300
| people are in Apple's crowdsourced location service.
|
| Speaking of populations that may or may not know something
| exists: lots of people who don't know about and wouldn't buy
| a GPS car tracker are likely to end up with an Airtag on
| their keychain. By introducing the product, Apple is inviting
| the idea "what if I dropped that in someone's bag" to come
| across a hundred million minds.
|
| Scale matters. At Apple volumes, mitigations like this are
| smart and will likely prevent crimes from occurring. At
| Tile's volume, it doesn't matter that much. I'm sure Tile (or
| a niche manufacturer of GPS fleet trackers) would love to
| have that problem, but they simply don't.
| Andrew_nenakhov wrote:
| They are much more expensive and require way more power, so
| they can't track you for a year without recharging. Also,
| they need to transmit data using cellular network, which also
| drains a lot of power.
|
| The problem is that this new service makes such snooping very
| casual.
| katbyte wrote:
| you can get ones that can last 3-4 weeds and cost about the
| same and unlike airtags there are no anti stalking
| measures, not to mention tile is exactly the same. Snooping
| was already very easy and casual and all airtags are doing
| is making people realize it and of all the trackers the
| only ones with any sort of anti stalking.
| darkarmani wrote:
| > Snooping was already very easy and casual and all
| airtags are doing is making people realize it
|
| So they are making the problem much worse? That's not
| really a defense.
| fastball wrote:
| "Casual stalker" sounds like an oxymoron to me.
| gnicholas wrote:
| That may change, as people realize how easy it is to
| track others. Will there be stories of guys who
| 'accidentally' leave their keys/backpack/jacket in the
| car of some girl who gave them a ride home from a party?
|
| I wouldn't be surprised if within a year we start seeing
| devices that can scan for nearby Airtags/Tiles/etc. so
| you can see if there's anything in your car before you
| head home.
| jhallenworld wrote:
| There are already Android apps to detect them:
|
| https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.dylan.airt...
| valine wrote:
| The airtag will start making sound after being separated from
| its owner for 3 days. That at least gives you the opportunity
| to locate and disable the airtag.
| laurowyn wrote:
| Good job nobody has posted a teardown of the device, with
| detailed notes on how to open it without damage and where the
| speaker is mounted. Otherwise anybody could prevent their
| airtags from beeping and alerting their stalking targets that
| they're being tracked.
| fastball wrote:
| If you're going to go to that much trouble, at that point
| it would be easier to use one of the countless pre-existing
| GPS trackers on the market[1] (which don't have such
| privacy-aware features) to stalk a victim.
|
| [1] https://www.amazon.com/GPS-Trackers/b?node=617650011
| randyrand wrote:
| I took the speaker out of the one I keep in my street
| parked motorcycle. I don't need to speaker functionality
| for that. It's only for theft.
|
| Took all of 3 minutes. Super convenient.
| Andrew_nenakhov wrote:
| I am pretty sure the beeper can be easily disabled.
| randyrand wrote:
| Not sure why he's downvoted. It can be. I did it myself in
| 3 minutes using only a knife.
| paulgerhardt wrote:
| The quickest solution would be to stop using Android.
|
| Any cellular device will report its location to the nearest
| cell tower. This data is sold to private parties and available
| to query nominally by law enforcement only but really to any
| bidder willing to pay Zumigo or Microbilt a fairly reasonable
| fee.
|
| Further that location is in realtime and contains historical
| breadcrumbs.
|
| The periodic pings from your device not masking it's MAC
| address by attempting to query nearby wifi points, your
| bluetooth sending out rotating EID's are useful for in store
| tracking of customers but worse than running footage through
| collected CCTV footage. Likewise the wifi/bluetooth breadcrumbs
| are worse data than the LTE pings we're already getting.
| Andrew_nenakhov wrote:
| To buy my phone location data the perpetrator needs to know
| my phone number firsr, which can be not that easy.
|
| Ok. Another scenario. A serial rapist sees a girl he likes at
| the shopping mall, exiting her car. He attaches an AirTag to
| the car, and in a few short hours he knows where she lives.
|
| Of course, he could do it with GPS tracker, but such tracker
| needs to transmit data, and cellular connection is rarely
| anonymous, creating risks for the perpetrator. So this
| wonderful technology makes all sorts of stalking much more
| accessible.
| avianlyric wrote:
| Or they could just do it the old fashioned way and just
| follow them in their car.
|
| Or just tape a burner android phone to the car.
|
| Or tape a GPS with cellular tracker using a burner SIM to
| the car.
|
| Cellular connections are more than anonymous enough in most
| countries, and its not like a perpetrator in you scenario
| is gonna be leaving the device on the car for an extend
| period of time.
|
| At the end of the day stalking someone who isn't actively
| defending again being stalked is pretty trivial. AirTags
| don't really change the status-quo that much. They've just
| shone a light on an existing issue.
| lgats wrote:
| This same scenario exists with Tile Trackers.
| Andrew_nenakhov wrote:
| At least not every iPhone reports Tiles to base.
| matthewowen wrote:
| You're missing the point. When OP says "How do I protect
| myself against this, if I am an Android user?" it's clear
| that the more relevant point is meant to be "if I am not an
| iPhone user".
|
| He won't be participating in the network, but he's also
| unable to be warned of being tracked which does seem
| unfortunate.
| stuff4ben wrote:
| No you're missing the point in that it doesn't matter. If
| you're on Android or iPhone, you're already being tracked.
| Airtags just piles on to this pile of privacy wasting
| garbage.
| dyingkneepad wrote:
| Airtag opens the possibility for normal people to easily
| track you. With Android is just the tech companies and
| entities that have control over them.
| alibarber wrote:
| I think this reply is basically saying that if you're
| worried about law enforcement tracking you via an airtag,
| yet you're already using an Android - or indeed any other
| phone, then you're worrying about the wrong thing. I think
| they're also suggesting that an iPhone is slightly better
| for privacy due to its MAC address randomisation - but I
| don't know enough about this and Android equivalent or lack
| of it to comment.
| FabHK wrote:
| Unless I'm mistaken, he's being warned of being tracked by
| the AirTag beeping when moved, and displaying information
| on any NFC capable device (such as most Android phones).
| TeMPOraL wrote:
| AirTags are talking regular Bluetooth 5, not some magic
| Apple variation of it, right? That would imply my Android
| phone should be able to see them. For example, I should
| be able to poke at them using nRF Toolbox app I have
| installed.
|
| (We have only so many iPhone users in Poland, and I
| currently live in a small town, so I can't just
| experimentally check it right now.)
|
| If that's true, then one should be able to write an app
| that scans for AirTags in the background and warns you
| about their presence. I'd hope someone will do this. I'd
| also hope this would eventually be included in the
| Android OS itself, perhaps as a generalized facility to
| detect Tile/AirTag-like devices around you.
|
| Long time ago, there were these things called "beacons",
| that IIRC started with Apple introducing iBeacon
| spec/protocol. They used BLE (Bluetooth Low Energy) to
| announce themselves. Some of those were used for the
| purpose of tracking your belongings[0]. I assume AirTags
| must be substantially different from that, because saw
| zero mentions of the Beacons in articles and discussions
| about AirTags so far.
|
| --
|
| [0] - I even bought a bunch of these on Aliexpress to
| play with, but didn't want to install the vendor's
| sketchy app, so I ended up not using them (but I could
| make them beep and give me some telemetry by poking them
| over BLE directly). They worked off a CR2032, but there
| was no "tracking network" back then - you'd connect these
| tags to your phone, and they'd just start beeping when
| they disconnected from your phone. A pretty unreliable
| design, given BLE can be flaky when mixed with apps,
| battery saving modes, and thick walls in an apartment.
| Unfortunately, all the non-sketchy makers of BLE beacons
| seem to have focused entirely on the retailer market -
| i.e. using them to push spam to your phone as you walk
| through a mall. I lost all my interest in that technology
| then.
| darkarmani wrote:
| I guess you could jam BT5 as well.
| lgats wrote:
| Apple devices anonymize MAC address for WiFi discovery
| https://support.apple.com/guide/security/wi-fi-privacy-
| secb9...
| xemoka wrote:
| And so does android apparently:
| https://source.android.com/devices/tech/connect/wifi-mac-
| ran...
| Eric_WVGG wrote:
| I'm sure you'll agree that this is an inadequate provision, but
| it will start beeping after three days.
|
| I can't really think of a solution to this beyond Apple and
| Google working together.
| fastball wrote:
| The solution for people that are worried about this is to
| take a freaking chill pill.
|
| Anyone that cares can already easily track/stalk you.
| barbegal wrote:
| It won't start beeping if you open the tag up and disable the
| speaker. The beeping is not an anti stalking measure.
| fjni wrote:
| As a user, I'd love the option to decide whether I want to help
| in this system or not. Similar to how I can opt-in to sharing
| analytics with Apple.
|
| I just might help out. But the idea that by owning an iPhone I'm
| automatically opted into this and I can't (temporarily) disable
| it is concerning. Especially since the feature to alert users of
| the possible privacy invasion outlined here, seems to not yet be
| working as advertised.
|
| It's unclear to me if the "Participate in 'Find My Network'"
| option is what I'm talking about. But I also don't remember being
| asked about this at any point.
| zzyzxd wrote:
| Default is powerful. I think one of the most important reason
| that ATT freaked out ad vendors, is because its default setting
| is "disable tracking". I would imagine that if Apple prompt
| user with a pop up asking "do you want to participate?" many
| would choose no because why not. And then AirTag won't be as
| effective.
|
| I did get a little pissed that the Find My Network isn't opt-
| out, even though I would likely choose yes.
| casefields wrote:
| You see this in organ donation. Opt-in is abysmal, but it's
| the reverse when they switch to opt-out. I get the
| utilitarian reason for the change but it's ethically and
| morally dubious.
|
| Informed consent is the gold standard, except when it's not.
| Dylan16807 wrote:
| I'm okay with consent rules being stricter for people that
| are alive.
| ghaff wrote:
| The economist Richard Thaler (who wrote the book Nudge &
| won Nobel for behavioral economics work) has, I believe,
| actually argued against opt out in this case because
| defaults are so powerful next of kin will also argue there
| was no informed consent.
| shkkmo wrote:
| Once we provide sufficient funding to coroners and the
| rules around how the human tissue procurement industry
| operate are fixed, I might be on board with it if it were
| accompanied by a big enough public awareness campaign.
| akiselev wrote:
| _> Informed consent is the gold standard, except when it 's
| not._
|
| You're thinking of medical research and experimentation.
|
| In the _practice_ of medicine the Hippocratic oath takes
| precedence over everything else so of course informed
| consent gets thrown out when there is concrete evidence
| that it interferes with medicine 's purpose: healing
| people.
|
| When's the last time someone gave informed consent while
| unconscious and bleeding out after a car crash or shooting?
| That's why we have DNRs.
| hwbehrens wrote:
| The "Participate in 'Find My Network' is the option you're
| referring to, but it's opt-out, not opt-in.
| [deleted]
| sneak wrote:
| Note that even opting out of sharing analytics with Apple
| results in your Mac, iPhone, or iPad sending lots of usage and
| activity data to Apple all of the time. That analytics opt
| in/out screen is more marketing than reality.
|
| For example, your device hardware serial is sent to Apple every
| time you open the App Store, like a permanent supercookie.
| Analytics are sent whenever you stream a video or make a
| FaceTime call, even with analytics off. Location Services sends
| your location 24/7 to Apple over the network, et c.
|
| Apple's approach to co-opting the Apple-branded hardware that
| you own to benefit Apple is a poor one.
| daemoon wrote:
| > Especially since the feature to alert users of the possible
| privacy invasion outlined here, seems to not yet be working as
| advertised.
|
| The AirTag was not moving, hence the lack of notifications.
| Otherwise you'd get a ton of notification practically anywhere
| you approach an AirTag. It is working as intended.
| hu3 wrote:
| "Not moving" is also an information that is useful to
| stalkers.
| blintz wrote:
| Yeah, the 'Settings > [Name] > Find My > Find My iPhone > Find
| My network' option will turn the collaborative tracking off.
| But yeah, it's buried, poorly explained, and an opt-out rather
| than an opt-in.
| [deleted]
| drclau wrote:
| "Settings" has a search function. While not perfect, it does
| work. Searching for "find" takes you very close to what you
| were looking for.
| fastball wrote:
| That's not buried at all. It's literally where I would expect
| to find that setting.
|
| And it is opt-in... you need to enable Find My iPhone at
| setup time in order for that to be enabled.
| raylad wrote:
| It says:
|
| "Find My Network: Participating in the Find My network lets
| you locate this iPhone even if its offline"
|
| So in fact there is no option (there at least) to opt out
| of finding other people's AirTags unless you also want to
| opt out of finding your own iPhone, at least as stated.
| [deleted]
| CountDrewku wrote:
| That's because it's using the same "network" to track
| both. It wouldn't make sense to turn one off an not the
| other. When your device is offline it's acting just like
| the AirTags and pulling info from other nearby iphones.
| stingraycharles wrote:
| Which is entirely fair, don't you think? If you want to
| make use of the ability to find your phone while it's
| powered off, you should help others to do the same.
|
| Or is it the airtag functionality specifically that's
| bothering you?
| [deleted]
| darkarmani wrote:
| > Or is it the airtag functionality specifically that's
| bothering you?
|
| Yes. What does find my phone have to do with airtags?
| jackson1442 wrote:
| You can still have traditional Find My- the one where
| your phone connects and tells Apple where its GPS is.
| This switch is specifically for the networking, which
| allows other devices to help out when your phone is dead
| or otherwise not connected to the internet/gps.
| FalconSensei wrote:
| > Or is it the airtag functionality specifically that's
| bothering you?
|
| A phone is bigger, more visible, and expensive if someone
| would want to use it to track you. Not practical at all.
|
| Maybe they should have 2 options: Phone and Tags (or
| All). Enabling find my phone would not necessarily allow
| tags.
| bspammer wrote:
| I think if you're making use of the network, it's
| entirely fair to ask you to contribute to it.
| upbeat_general wrote:
| I spent about 10 minutes googling how to disable it before
| finally finding the find my settings.
|
| There's nothing on any of the apple pages I could find
| about opting out.
|
| If it took me that long to disable it, it won't be obvious
| for most people.
|
| I found it through Settings -> Privacy -> Location Services
| -> Share my Location -> Find my iPhone -> Find my Network.
|
| They could have put it 2 steps above or found a better way.
| fastball wrote:
| Wow, so you can actually find the settings through two
| routes, I didn't know that but it makes it even easier!
|
| The only jump that is not immediately obvious is that the
| Find My settings are under your Apple ID settings.
| Everything else is blindingly obvious and is not
| confusing at all. You being confused does not mean the
| average person will also be confused. You could just be a
| confused person.
|
| From there though, it _is_ a root level option when
| setting up your phone and enabling "Find My iPhone".
|
| I'm actually disappointed that the disabling of the
| network is even an option.
|
| Bit of a tragedy of the commons situation if we have too
| many selfish people like you who want the benefits of
| being able to find their own phone when it's lost but not
| participate in helping find other people's.
| darkarmani wrote:
| > Bit of a tragedy of the commons situation if we have
| too many selfish people like you who want the benefits of
| being able to find their own phone when it's lost but not
| participate in helping find other people's.
|
| What if you only want to turn off airtags? This false
| choice is caused by apple.
| fastball wrote:
| Because again, the network is a common good. Why should
| everyone else participate in finding your devices when
| you don't want to participate in finding theirs?
| divbzero wrote:
| It also comes up if you search for "location" or
| "privacy" in Settings. Not completely obvious but easily
| discoverable for anyone concerned about privacy.
|
| > tragedy of the commons situation if we have too many
| selfish people
|
| I can't think of how helping the Find My network would
| compromise my privacy in any significant way. But I am
| still glad there's an option to disable, there may be
| people for whom it is a concern.
| hunter2_ wrote:
| > if you search
|
| Eh, I find it a stretch to consider things that need to
| be typed "discoverable" unless there's a user manual
| provided telling you everything that can be typed. This
| same reasoning is why many would consider GUIs (or text
| mode menu-driven interfaces) to be more user-friendly
| than CLIs.
|
| Voice assistants have a very similar issue, but nobody
| likes IVR systems either, so who knows.
| threeseed wrote:
| > They could have put it 2 steps above or found a better
| way.
|
| They have a search bar at the top where you can type
| "Find my" and it jumps you straight to those sections.
| temp667 wrote:
| 1) Where would you put it, there are already TONS of options
| for wifi / bluetooth / audio etc. This is where I would
| expect it.
|
| 2) You can just disable this stuff when you first get your
| phone it walks you through these prompts there. If you don't
| enable it - it is not enabled.
|
| 3) Spam should be opt-in - most people don't want it. But a
| lot of Apple stuff should be opt-out, because people do want
| it. Ie, turn on GPS / location features - folks really want
| weather, maps with turn by turn etc. Apple already over
| prompts on setup for my tastes.
| Daishiman wrote:
| Apple is surely against tracking and in favor of opt-ins for
| privacy... as long as it's the competitors' products and not
| its own.
| threeseed wrote:
| This is simply nonsense.
|
| Apple asks you every, single time you upgrade your iOS/OSX
| device to confirm your privacy and telemetry settings.
|
| And all of the features they implement are private by design.
| They use features such as differential privacy to make sure
| they aren't leaking private data: https://www.apple.com/priva
| cy/docs/Differential_Privacy_Over...
| samatman wrote:
| I don't really think either of those things apply here,
| although the implementation is pretty crucial.
|
| AirTags have some protections against using them to track
| people, and the AirTag network doesn't _appear_ to leak any
| private information. That last part could be completely
| wrong, for all we know: it relies on the software to be
| correct. The whole point of the gizmo is to "track", and I
| struggle to come up with an improvement to their solution to
| allowing users to track things but not stalk people.
|
| This is being automatically enrolled in some kind of public
| good, where "public" is the Apple ecosystem. Is that bad? I
| mean, I don't mind, but offering an opt-out seems... polite,
| at least?
| darkarmani wrote:
| > The whole point of the gizmo is to "track", and I
| struggle to come up with an improvement to their solution
| to allowing users to track things but not stalk people.
|
| Let the user block types of devices from using their "find
| network". And let them block individual devices from using
| the "find network" through their phone.
|
| If everyone could see, every local device, there would be
| no private tracking.
| petepete wrote:
| Stalking people who don't use iOS is fine though. It's a
| good thing they're not as important.
| jaywalk wrote:
| Not a whole lot Apple can do about that. The fact that
| they built it into iOS shows the amount of thought that
| went into it.
| fastball wrote:
| The idea that AirTags are much of a step up from what a
| determined stalker is already using[1] to stalk people is
| a laughable one.
|
| [1] https://www.amazon.com/GPS-Trackers/b?node=617650011
| shkkmo wrote:
| Then why do they provide protections against being
| tracked by them only to iOS users?
| user-the-name wrote:
| They do provide as much protection as they possibly can
| to those who do not. The device will beep, and it works
| as an NFC tag to get information about what it is on non-
| iOS phones.
| jfoster wrote:
| Those measures don't sound like they'll be very effective
| if an AirTag is planted on the underside of a vehicle.
| samatman wrote:
| How do you propose they extend this to other platforms?
| jfoster wrote:
| What would stop them from creating an Android app to
| notify users if an AirTag seems to be travelling with
| them?
| daemoon wrote:
| It does let you to opt-out.
| the_lonely_road wrote:
| Very few people practice consistent logic regarding opt in
| versus opt out. In nearly every case I've observed people are
| pro opt in for things they don't like and pro opt out of
| things do like. Hence the push to make organ donation opt out
| and privacy invasion opt in. I don't think there should be an
| expectation of being consistent, it's just an observation.
| ASalazarMX wrote:
| Funny how in this case, we're talking about two tracking
| efforts, so it would be expected that both were opt-in to
| respect our privacy. The difference is that one kind of
| tracking helps Apple make money, and the other doesn't.
| FabHK wrote:
| How does helping other people find their lost items (with
| neither Apple nor the "helper" knowing where the item is,
| now who lost it) infringe on anyone's privacy?
| Daishiman wrote:
| How about if I just don't want Apple collecting data at
| will or using my device as a private mesh network?
| fastball wrote:
| Um, then don't enable "Find My iPhone" when setting up
| your device??
| polartx wrote:
| I thought that was kind of implied by the 'Enable Find my
| IPhone' setting that is required for the tags to work..which
| isn't a condition I'm upset about. IE--want to benefit from
| this feature? Thanks for pitching in! Don't want to be part of
| the helpful network? Okay, disable Find my IPhone
| ASalazarMX wrote:
| You phrase it as if it was some community effort. Since it's
| opt-out and people don't change the defaults several levels
| deep, it's a shadow service. How many Apple users know their
| devices are tracking other's devices?
| kube-system wrote:
| IIRC, when I set up my iPhone, I was asked whether I wanted
| to turn on location services (which would be used with the
| Find My network), and separately asked whether I wanted to
| "participate in the Find My network".
| fastball wrote:
| What do you mean? It asks you at setup time "would you like to
| enable Find My iPhone?" If you click yes, then it is enabled.
| That sounds like opt-in to me.
|
| How can it get any more opt-in?
| elliekelly wrote:
| I've updated my iPad but haven't yet updated my iPhone and just
| poked around in: Settings > Privacy > Location Services > Share
| My Location > Find My $iDevice
|
| My iPad has the "Find My network" setting (toggled on) but I
| was a bit surprised to see my iPhone has what seems to be the
| same setting (also toggled on) but it's called "Enable Offline
| Finding".
|
| Find My Network is described as "Participating in the Find My
| Network lets you locate this iPad even if it's offline."
|
| Enable Offline Finding is described as "Offline finding enables
| this device to be found when not connected to Wi-Fi or
| cellular."
|
| Which makes me wonder if "Find My Network" is just a repacking
| and rebranding of something Apple has been doing for a long
| time. Regardless, I'd prefer to have opted-in. I suppose it's
| _possible_ at some point I opted in while setting up a new
| device with "Find My" but I'm not sure. I certainly had no
| idea there was a way to find my iPhone even when it wasn't
| connected to wi-fi or cellular signal.
|
| E- It seems this feature was added ~2 years ago and it did
| indeed use bluetooth and "crowdsourced" Apple devices[1]:
|
| > Offline Finding uses a background process called "Search
| Party" to broadcast and receive Bluetooth beacon signals at
| regular intervals, and it can even do its work when the device
| is in a sleep state. And it does this with limited battery
| impact for all devices involved, so you should see little to no
| difference in power consumption.
|
| And whether it was turned on by default seems to depend:
|
| > By default, if you had Find My iPhone, iPad, or Mac turned on
| before updating to iOS 13, iPadOS 13, or macOS 10.15 Catalina,
| Offline Finding should already be on. However, if only one of
| the device's had the Find My service enabled but not another
| device, it may not have turned on automatically. To make sure
| it's on, check the following.
|
| [1]https://ios.gadgethacks.com/how-to/track-your-lost-iphone-
| ip...
| the_arun wrote:
| AirTag or similar tool could be a great way to track important
| packages we mail. Courier services could use this by default &
| provide better tracking data for their customers. I recently
| mailed a document to India & I have no clue where it is.
| hughrr wrote:
| You can buy devices for this purpose already:
| https://tive.co/tive-solo-5g/
| Scoundreller wrote:
| To get started, they say "Request a Trial". You know it's
| going to be pricy. And difficult to resell once you're done.
| Scoundreller wrote:
| I'm looking forward to a world where the iPhone mesh net lets
| me move any amount of data from place to place without needing
| any long-range wired or wireless network link, just apple
| phones moving around.
|
| We largely go the same places every day, and apple could figure
| out how to send a message or request for a
| song/movie/file/update and it just appears a few hours or
| couple days later.
|
| Like a transparent sneakernet that uses onion routing.
|
| We have some satellite-internet fed remote areas in Canada, and
| how to get your phone updated without a local IX means everyone
| chews through data just for system updates. They do have daily
| or weekly flights however. Loading up an SD card for the trips
| back and forth could work, but complicated.
|
| When MS released the Zune with wifi, I hoped I could sit in an
| airport and "borrow" songs from other users/hosters, but I
| don't think it worked that way.
|
| Worldwide, high-latency LAN. For basically free by doing what
| we already do.
| bityard wrote:
| Back in the early 2000s when hand-held GPS receivers/loggers
| started becoming relatively cheap, some white-hat hackers tried
| sending them through the mail to see how the postal system worked
| and produced several articles and presentations on the results.
|
| It turned out the USPS took a very dim view of this kind of
| thing.
|
| I can't find any of this research now, of course, because all the
| search engines want to sell me tracking devices and package
| tracking services.
| dkdbejwi383 wrote:
| If you (or anyone) manages to find it, I'd appreciate a link,
| sounds like a good read
| coolspot wrote:
| https://webmonkeyuk.wordpress.com/2012/01/26/putting-a-
| gps-t...
| orhmeh09 wrote:
| This is from 2012 and it concerns the UK mail system, not
| USPS.
| fallat wrote:
| Is this possible with other tag systems? Seems like a great way
| to send something with "better tracking" which is expensive.
| klausjensen wrote:
| Not really.
|
| The reason this works so well is the massive amount of IOS
| devices participating.
|
| I have some Tile-trackers (which I think used to be the biggest
| player in this space - until Apple came along), and while they
| are OK, the number of devices tracking them is abysmal compared
| to the Airtags.
| andrewmunsell wrote:
| I bought my first Tile a couple years ago:
|
| Someone had their rental car broken into, and their stuff
| stolen. He had a Tile on his keys, and noticed that he got a
| ping outside of SLU in Seattle, so he posted in the /r/seattle
| subreddit.
|
| I happened to be working there at the time, so I messaged him
| and went for a walk. It took me about 30 min to find his keys
| (his bag was gone, they must have dumped it elsewhere) in a
| bush, which I was able to mail back to him.
|
| So, I bought a couple Tiles since that was proof to me that it
| worked.
|
| But, looking back, over the day or so it was there, he only got
| two pings to my recollection: one person that walked by (and
| caused him to post to Reddit), and me once I found it. AirTag's
| network is just so much bigger. I'm pretty convinced you would
| get at most a single ping if you mailed a Tile somewhere.
|
| I also use a Tile in my snowboard bag. I was always able to
| confirm the bag made it on the plane because my phone would
| connect through the floor of the plane into the cargo hold, but
| I'd be very lucky if I got a ping when the bag was in the
| baggage belt system underneath the airport.
|
| Tile was a great idea and worked well if you had other Tile
| users nearby. It's not really their fault the network is so
| small, it's a hard problem to solve to seed that network unless
| you happen to own a billion devices...
| gord288 wrote:
| Tile just announced they're partnering with Amazon so that
| Tile devices will participate in their 'Sidewalk' network.
| This will help them compete with the network of Apple's
| billion+ 'Find My' devices.
|
| https://macdailynews.com/2021/05/07/tile-teams-with-
| amazon-i...
| whoisburbansky wrote:
| Sidenote, but it's kind of amusing to me that you were
| working there but you only felt confident enough to buy them
| after you saw them work in the field like that.
| mb7733 wrote:
| He was working in Seattle, not at Tile.
| bosswipe wrote:
| As an Android user I hate AirTags because it will reduce the
| power of Tile's cross-platform finding network making it less
| likely that my tiles will be found. This means that Google should
| fight back by integrating a finding network into Android OS. It's
| more anti-competitive platform lock-in.
| kube-system wrote:
| I had Tile on some lost luggage recently. Even though Tile had
| the biggest network, it still wasn't enough. My luggage visited
| a few large international airports without a single ping. It
| really seems that OS integration is the only way to get enough
| scale.
| temp667 wrote:
| Same experience - I also went all in on tile - it really does
| not have the density of reporting and I'm also pretty sure
| lacks privacy protections apple has.
| katbyte wrote:
| and none of the anti stalking measures.
| fastball wrote:
| Have you actually used the tile network to successfully recover
| something? I was big on tile a few years ago, but they didn't
| help me find two things that were lost. Just not enough of a
| network. I'm hopeful AirTags will work better.
| pr0zac wrote:
| Tile recently announced an agreement with Amazon to use their
| new Sidewalk network which should help them stay relevant.
|
| https://macdailynews.com/2021/05/07/tile-teams-with-amazon-i...
| pimlottc wrote:
| I'm not sure I understand you. How does the introduction of
| AirTags diminish the Tile network? Are you assuming Tile users
| will switch?
| acomjean wrote:
| Its a network effect. Its basically the dominant players become
| more dominant. It makes apples phone's more useful, and Apple
| is unlikely to let any competitors use they're phone for a
| similar service, especially not by default.
|
| If you have an iOS device, you're tracking all these airtags
| around you physically for Apple. Apple's not paying you for
| that service. It probably uses a little battery life, but all
| these individual device make the network great. But if you
| bought an airtag that's a great thing.
| madjam002 wrote:
| Does anyone think in the future we'll see DIY AirTag alternatives
| that can participate in the Find My network? They're just BLE
| beacons right?
| maxwell wrote:
| https://github.com/seemoo-lab/openhaystack#how-does-apples-f...
| UncleEntity wrote:
| I was under the impression that airtags used some kind of
| Frequency Hopping Spread Spectrum so there was no chance to
| emulate one without some dedicated hardware but that link
| seems to say otherwise.
|
| Now there's hope that with a little hacking the iBeacon
| emulator I coded up to run on my laptop can participate on
| the Find My network, sweet.
| [deleted]
| eplanit wrote:
| It seems creepy to me, especially given how many legitimate
| reasons there are now to distrust Big Tech. It seems like an
| abusive husband can plant a tag on his wife (or her car, or
| purse, ...) and track her quite effectively. Also, even without
| that, doesn't it just give Apple even more insight as to how you
| live your life?
|
| This seems like one of those 'features' where 20% of the benefit
| is for the end-user, but the gold mine 80% is in the long-tail
| that goes to the company.
| underseacables wrote:
| Is there any way to opt out of the AirTag network?
| fastball wrote:
| Don't enable "Find My iPhone" when setting up your phone.
| ezfe wrote:
| There is a switch in Find my iPhone location settings for the
| "Find My network" that presumably opts you out of this.
| underseacables wrote:
| They does seem to do the trick. I'm ok with using a service
| like that to find a phone, but to utilize the devices of
| others (while a noble idea) creeps too far into the scary for
| me.
| [deleted]
| ocdtrekkie wrote:
| Yeah, Find My is an app that needs your location services to
| work. ...If your Location Services is off, or your Find My app
| doesn't have permission to access Location Services, it
| shouldn't be able to report your device (nor other peoples'
| devices) location to Apple.
| kumarharsh wrote:
| Back in the days, I used to watch Spiderman cartoons, and was
| amazed by the small trackers Spidey put on people he needed to
| track, and got the location in real time. I wanted to see
| something like that someday.
|
| This AirTag does seem very nice in that respect. But then I
| realize what a gigantic privacy nightmare this can be for a large
| portion of our population.
|
| Stalkers can put a tracker on you, and you'll never get notified
| if you don't have an iPhone? What if the user doesn't even have a
| smartphone?
|
| How does Apple think they'll handle this scenario? Can it even be
| handled?
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