[HN Gopher] Aqueduct of Constantinople: Managing longest water c...
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Aqueduct of Constantinople: Managing longest water channel of the
ancient world
Author : pseudolus
Score : 67 points
Date : 2021-05-11 12:12 UTC (10 hours ago)
(HTM) web link (phys.org)
(TXT) w3m dump (phys.org)
| Naga wrote:
| > Aqueducts were not a Roman invention, but in Roman hands, these
| long-distance aqueducts were developed further and extensively
| diffused throughout one of the largest empires in history
|
| Roman water management is one of my interests (ask my wife, she
| will tell you that it's annoying how much I talk about
| aqueducts). The real invention though wasn't the aqueduct,
| although they definitely are engineering feats, since they
| require reasonably precise measurements and construction over
| long distances. The real innovation though was being able to
| maintain (relative) peace over their territory. Aqueducts are
| large and imposing, but also fragile and impossible to defend.
| Defending Rome's aqueducts required keeping the enemy out of
| Italy, for example. Rome's real success was over that part, not
| necessarily just the construction.
| simmerup wrote:
| I read that the aqueducts were a massive help for
| Constantinople during sieges. I always wondered why the
| attackers never destroyed the aqueducts, do you happen to know?
| bwanab wrote:
| Most enemies the Romans (they called themselves Romans
| through the final loss in 1453) that were strong enough to do
| threaten the aqueducts were on the other side of the straits.
| The Roman navy was strong enough to prevent large scale
| assaults on the European side. Occasional disruptions
| occurred, but when they became more than occasional was when
| the city really stared to weaken.
| Naga wrote:
| Great question. I am not too familiar with Constantinople's
| waterworks (I've been reading mostly about Rome itself). Off
| the top of my head, could be related to exactly where the
| aqueducts were built or placed. Parts may or may not be
| easily accessible, or underground in areas. Besiegers would
| also have to know they are there, since it wasn't as easy to
| google as it is now a days.
|
| Quick search though shows that it had been cut during at
| least one siege:
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siege_of_Constantinople_(626).
| The key is that you don't have to destroy the entire
| structure during a siege too, you just have to break ti
| enough that water doesn't flow through anymore.
| simmerup wrote:
| Thanks that makes sense
| hinkley wrote:
| If you plan to take the city, you have to break it without
| causing it to destroy itself. Water where it's not supposed
| to be can flood. It can undermine footings and destroy
| massive structures including itself.
|
| If you want to destroy a fort you might throw a dead animal
| in the well. If you plant to keep the fort, that would be a
| titanically stupid idea.
|
| You can cut off food supply and restore it the moment your
| flag is flying. Hell, you can stand the wagons on a hilltop
| as part of negotiating a surrender. How do you divert a
| river and put it back on demand, with not even medieval
| technology?
| LaMarseillaise wrote:
| > How do you divert a river and put it back on demand,
| with not even medieval technology?
|
| Now I am wondering how Kurus handled this situation after
| he took Babylon.
| hinkley wrote:
| Floodplains are weird, for one thing.
|
| On a small scale you can improve a stream by forcing the
| water to turn, using stones or posts driven into the
| water. If you have the ability to build a bridge, you
| have some ability to change the direction of the water.
|
| In a floodplain or alluvial fan, all of the land is
| sediment from the river, which means that at flood stage
| the river has been _everywhere_ and during a flood, or
| over geologic time periods, the banks of the river can
| shift. Oxbow lakes are old bends in the river that
| straightened themselves out.
|
| In theory, if you had a city that was built beside the
| new banks of a river, you could go upstream and rechannel
| the river to an old course, either to expand the city or
| for nefarious purposes.
|
| Also Babylon is, I think, a weird case anyway. If you
| look at a map of the Fertile Crescent, you see that the
| Euphrates forks, and it forks a LOT. And Babylon is
| located between two of the outer forks. Convincing a
| river that forks to chose another fork might just require
| some megalithic technology - throw some big rocks in
| until the flow rate slows rather than stops, and
| evaporation takes care of some of the rest. Or a phalanx
| of pilons all driven into the shadow of the next one up
| river (think geese in flight), which is how you divert a
| stream.
|
| Even if the river doesn't stop, it might not have enough
| clear water in it to sustain a city under siege.
| Especially if you can get them to surrender before the
| next rainy season washes away all your hydraulic
| engineering.
| RcouF1uZ4gsC wrote:
| I wonder if that was actually a myth to hide the fact
| that he had inside collaboraters.
|
| The priests of Marduk in Babylon hated Nabonidis due to
| his abandonment of Marduk worship and making another city
| his headquarters.
|
| It may have been more acceptable to the population to
| tell them that the Persians diverted a river at night and
| entered rather than saying the gates were opened by
| insiders.
| teleforce wrote:
| As they have always said, if you want to have good housing
| estates, there are three sound advices, location, location
| and location.
|
| Personally I have been to Istanbul and the only main reasons
| I can think of Constantinople did not fall much earlier
| because of its strategic location at the edge of peninsular
| surrounded by natural three water/sea barriers and its
| extensive aqueduct systems.
|
| Imagine the constant barrage of attacks from the Muslim
| Empires namely Umayyad, Abbasid and Ottoman over the course
| of around 700 years. This is due to prophecy that
| Constantinople will eventually fall to the Muslim army and
| only the best army General will prevail[1].
|
| The attacks and sieges was started during by the Umayyad
| Empire in 674 and only in the year 1463 Sultan Fatih managed
| to finally subdue Constantinople for good. The only other
| time Constantinople was conquered happened during the
| Crusades'sacking in the year 1204. The Crusade invasion is
| only temporary and only lasted until 1261.
|
| But the turning points of both of the successful sieges are
| very different. The Fatih's armies do not have direct access
| from the mainland and they do not have significant number of
| Christian Latin supporters in the Byzantine Empire and inside
| the fortress, unlike the Crusaders. The Ottoman basically
| have to resort to clever maneuvers like literally carrying
| the warships over hills to overcome the multiple chains
| barracades along the Golden Horn. The Ottoman was victorious
| probably due to conventional military strength and tactics
| but oblivious on the importance of aqueducts system
| supporting the lifeline of the city. The Crusades however,
| probably much aware of the importance aqueducts to the city
| due to their significant number of local Christian Latin
| supporters and managed to strangle Constantinople out of its
| lifeline. The recapture of Constantinople from the Crusade to
| reinstate the Byzantine Empire, however, is much easier
| because the Nicaean Empire obviously know the city inside out
| and the aqueduct systems.
|
| This is my pure speculation based on my limited readings and
| observations of Istanbul, and more research needed to verify
| the potential causes of the fall of Constantinople and the
| importance of its aqueduct systems.
|
| [1]https://www.dailysabah.com/feature/2015/05/29/the-
| conquest-o...
|
| [2]https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sack_of_Constantinople
| RcouF1uZ4gsC wrote:
| Rome also was able to use its building prowess for military
| ends like few other powers.
|
| Examples are Masada and Alesia. How do you assault a military
| fortress that sits on a shear cliff?
|
| You either build a set a walls all the way around the city and
| starve it out (Alesia) or you build a giant ramp that is slopes
| gently enough to get your army and siege engines to the walls
| of the fortress(Masada).
|
| Also the bridge of Apolonius was a major help in enabling
| Trajan to invade Dacia.
| boomboomsubban wrote:
| >One of the most imposing bridges, that of Balligerme, was blown
| up with dynamite in 2020 by treasure hunters who erroneously
| believed they could find gold in the ruins.
|
| What? I couldn't find anything else about this story, but my
| search revealed an even more bizarre story where Bulgarian
| treasure hunters blew up a Roman bridge looking for Turkish
| treasure. Only a millennia or so off on their dating.
|
| http://archaeologyinbulgaria.com/2016/02/23/treasure-hunters...
| space_ghost wrote:
| That section caught my eye as well, and my search turned up
| this [0] result. "According to gossip, which is spoken among
| the people and is not essential, those who made these works put
| the gold among the stones and asked the people to use it in
| times of absence." ... that's quite an odd legend. Gold
| certainly wouldn't be a component of the construction itself,
| and it makes absolutely no sense to embed your critical
| infrastructure project with a strong motivation to destroy it.
|
| [0] https://www.archyde.com/urban-legend-has-
| destroyed-1600-year...
| hinkley wrote:
| Bridges _are_ gold. Anyone who tells you they aren 't lives
| by a stream, not a proper river.
|
| In Bangledesh there are families who build living bridges
| that their children and grandchildren will be the first to
| use.
|
| I've lived consecutively in two areas for which I thought,
| "they need more bridges here" and if you stop to think about
| it, impassable terrain informs just about everything you do.
| I don't think most flatlanders ever really internalize this.
|
| I-5 in Seattle is in a really stupid spot for a modern city,
| stretching it out like a noodle. But where else were you
| going to put it? Water on both sides and hilly terrain
| everywhere in between. Parts of it - miles of it really - are
| built into a hillside because in some places there's nowhere
| else and in others there's a narrows where it can cross
| water.
| oceliker wrote:
| I did a search in Turkish and found this video (I timestamped
| it to the relevant drone footage):
| https://youtu.be/DHkxKc3ah0w?t=538
| oogetyboogety wrote:
| I love how this podcast specifically addresses water management
| and hydraulic civil engineering as a main factor in the success
| in every ancient civilization https://youtu.be/2JHCfe86A8U
|
| It's a good link for context on constantinople
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(page generated 2021-05-11 23:01 UTC)