[HN Gopher] Remains of nine Neanderthals found in cave south of ...
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Remains of nine Neanderthals found in cave south of Rome
Author : Anthony-G
Score : 142 points
Date : 2021-05-09 12:30 UTC (10 hours ago)
(HTM) web link (www.theguardian.com)
(TXT) w3m dump (www.theguardian.com)
| yhoneycomb wrote:
| Can someone who knows more about anthropology explain to me what
| makes Neanderthals their own species and not just a separate
| race?
| nicklecompte wrote:
| The short answer is that it is far from a settled question -
| many people say "Homo sapiens neanderthalis" as the proposed
| subspecies. The fact that modern humans and Neanderthals
| crossbred and apparently had viable offspring is strong
| evidence for this understanding (but not necessarily
| conclusive; sometimes mules are fertile).
|
| That said, Neanderthals rapidly went extinct after modern human
| contact, and are vastly genetically different from us compared
| to any two randomly chosen modern humans. They do not appear to
| have formed especially sophisticated technology or formed any
| society as complex as a simple tribe. So there are still
| meaningful _biological_ differences between Neanderthals and
| modern humans that don't require the delicate machinery of
| anthropology to understand.
|
| Note: a difficulty here is that "species" is actually a very
| fuzzy concept, one that Nature itself doesn't seem to care much
| about. "Subspecies" is even more vague.
|
| Outside of modern humans (Homo sapiens sapiens) there had been
| only one other conclusively identified "race"[1] of Homo
| sapiens, the Homo sapiens idaltu. Perhaps there will be more
| evidence to put Neanderthals in there as well, but the
| consensus is that they were a separate but closely-related
| species.
|
| [1] "Race" in the scientific sense as a synonym for subspecies,
| not the social sense of "ethnic group, but with more negative
| overtones."
| fpoling wrote:
| Modern humans have very low genetic diversity. There are more
| genetic variations among apes in a single group than among
| all humans on the whole planet. A typical interpretation of
| this is that we are descendants of small group of survivors,
| but whatever the reason the consequences is that the genetic
| variation between Neanderthals and humans can be in fact
| within normal variation within single species, we just do not
| have enough data.
| [deleted]
| pedrosorio wrote:
| The answer is that species is a fuzzy concept defined a long
| time ago: https://www.nhm.ac.uk/discover/are-neanderthals-same-
| species...
|
| https://www.quora.com/Why-are-Homo-sapiens-and-Neanderthals-...
| jasonwatkinspdx wrote:
| So, the root problem here is that species are not defined by
| crisp barriers, particularly when we're talking about early
| homonids. So the old elementary school definition of species as
| reproductive compatibility is just one thing considered today
| in choosing where to put the line.
|
| Other considerations are morphology and genetic drift. By both
| those measures Neanderthals are different enough to justify
| being a separate species, though there is some debate. Take a
| look at this diagram from wiki and you can see that the
| evolution of humans was not some sort of clean branching tree,
| but a messy web including substantial horizontal gene transfer:
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Recent_human_evolution#/media/...
|
| Race is a social construct with a tenuous connection to
| underlying biology.
| suifbwish wrote:
| Because 19th century English majors were masquerading as
| scientists.
| briefcomment wrote:
| Nine Neanderthals were hunted by a pack of Hyenas? Wow, didn't
| realize Hyenas could be so aggressive, and couldn't be warded off
| by sticks and maybe fire.
| matco11 wrote:
| that's not what they say it happened. The human remains
| accumulated there over time.
|
| From the article:
|
| > Experts believe the individuals lived in different time
| periods. Some bones could be as old as 50,000 to 68,000 years,
| whereas the most ancient remains are believed to be 100,000
| years old.
| lostlogin wrote:
| It's surprising to me how large those bone fragments are.
| Hyenas crush bone and have spectacularly strong jaws. If that
| cave was somewhere they lived or rested, I'd have expected
| any bones to be completely destroyed by chewing, yet the
| photo doesn't show that.
| masklinn wrote:
| Hyenas eat bones to supplement their calcium and phosphorus
| intake. Well-fed hyenas without such deficiencies would
| likely not bother.
| the_af wrote:
| A misconception about Hyenas is that they are primarily
| scavengers. They are not -- they are hunters, and pretty
| aggressive at that. I read more than once that the traditional
| relationship between lions and hyenas as popular culture has it
| is actually backwards: hyenas mostly hunt, and lions mostly
| steal their kills.
|
| Also, a single lion (or two) facing a pack of hyenas is in dire
| peril. Hyenas are clever, strong and dangerous. There are
| YouTube videos about this.
| officialjunk wrote:
| also hyenas can open doors with lever handles. there was one
| that escaped into the hallways at a university lab while i
| was there. luckily no one was hurt.
| david38 wrote:
| I would have have given a kidney to see that.
| dogma1138 wrote:
| They might oblige you for one.
| officialjunk wrote:
| it was sedated, but still a danger. not sure how it
| initially got loose, but it was assumed that it wouldn't
| be able to leave the room, which quickly was disproven.
| progre wrote:
| Like this one. Wanna see a scared lion?
| https://youtu.be/a5V6gdu5ih8
| _dps wrote:
| I like this video a lot, both because it shows the lion in
| peril against the pack of hyenas but also because it shows
| that it only takes one additional lion to change the
| balance completely. When the second lion shows up around
| 2:50 the hyenas just disperse and don't even bother
| fighting.
| csomar wrote:
| The first lion seems in a bad shape, though. That being
| said, the video mentions that he strayed a bit from his
| family's territory. Which suggests that lions are not
| that safe alone.
| tvhahn wrote:
| Obligatory: https://youtu.be/IPiyo332Gks
|
| Ntwadumela - "he who greets with fire"
| rmk wrote:
| If you read the article, you will see that the individuals were
| dragged into the cave over a span of tens of thousands of
| years. They were not hunted en-masse.
| pengaru wrote:
| Hyenas are notorious for being assholes
|
| But any carnivorous pack animal is just an Alpha's decision to
| attack away from being a problem. The scarcer food gets, the
| more riskier sources they'll pursue.
| nicklecompte wrote:
| They could have been ill or mostly elderly - in fact that seems
| quite probable. And we don't know much about Neanderthal
| behavior but they may have been less able to outwit/intimidate
| hyenas than modern humans.
|
| That said, if "pack" means 50 hyenas, 10 humans with primitive
| spears could quickly run into trouble. In the wild hyena packs
| can be as large as 100.
| gostsamo wrote:
| It took thousands of years to make them nine. The bones are
| from different periods.
| rmk wrote:
| If the first remains were found in 1939, how was there a gap of
| 80+ years before further remains were found? Is there someone
| who's familiar with archeology who can explain how?
| masklinn wrote:
| Looking at NESPOS, it seems like there have been minor
| discoveries (mandibles) in 2002:
|
| https://www.nespos.org/pages/viewpage.action?pageId=29887333
|
| https://www.nespos.org/pages/viewpage.action?pageId=29887335
|
| > Is there someone who's familiar with archeology who can
| explain how?
|
| Lack of funding, lack of opportunity, ill-luck, the site might
| be large as well so if the fossils were not obviously visible
| it can take a long time to find them, especially as you'd want
| to be very careful in order to avoid both damaging fossils and
| damaging (and possibly bringing down) the cave itself.
| bena wrote:
| Fossilization is rare. It's as simple as that.
| masklinn wrote:
| You might have misunderstood GP's question: remains were
| found _in this exact cave_ in 1939, they 're wondering why
| there's such a gap in a cave known to have held fossils.
|
| Dozens of remains have been found elsewhere in europe in the
| meantime. There have been so many such discoveries that the
| Wikipedia List of Neanderthal fossils doesn't even bother
| listing them, only a dozen "notable" finds.
| thedogeye wrote:
| Discovering I am 4% Neanderthal was one of the strangest days of
| my life. Thanks 23andMe!
| juskrey wrote:
| 23andMe also thanks for your data
| dang wrote:
| " _Avoid unrelated controversies and generic tangents._ "
|
| https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
| ljf wrote:
| Snap I wonder how closely we are related?
| PicassoCTs wrote:
| And thank you random citizen, for offering the DNA of yours and
| your family + decedents to all insurance companies out there.
| dang wrote:
| " _Eschew flamebait. Avoid unrelated controversies and
| generic tangents._ "
|
| https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
| solipsism wrote:
| The paternalistic lecturing around here is unreal.
| Grandparent didn't ask for your opinion about 23andme privacy
| policies, and it's not remotely on topic.
| Amezarak wrote:
| To be fair, you aren't making the decision just for
| yourself when you sell your data to 23andme. You're doing
| it for all your relatives and descendants too. The GP made
| the pint flippantly but I think it is worth seriously
| considering whether business models like that should be
| allowed.
| solipsism wrote:
| Nitpicking individuals is not likely to address that
| problem. And it wasn't even close to the subject of
| conversation. This is simple common decency. It also
| happens to be HN guidelines:
|
| _Eschew flamebait. Avoid unrelated controversies and
| generic tangents_
| garmaine wrote:
| It is illegal for insurance companies to use that data (in
| the US at least).
| simple_phrases wrote:
| No, it's only illegal for health insurance providers to
| discriminate based on genetic data, but other types of
| insurers are free to use it. The legislation that makes it
| illegal also doesn't apply if your employer employs less
| than 15 people.
| raister wrote:
| Naively speaking, 23andMe cannot trade your data to
| anybody...
| koheripbal wrote:
| They obviously cooperate with subpoenas they receive, and I
| would not ve surprised if a data breach happens at some
| point
|
| I wonder if there is an anonymous version of the service.
| bpodgursky wrote:
| There is absolutely no way an insurance company would
| risk using stolen genetic data to tweak their premiums.
|
| Would they love to buy the data legally? Of course. But
| they are not going to buy it off of Russian hackers.
| scrapcode wrote:
| Since it has already been brought up... is there a
| hypothetical way to anonymously submit your data? Say, an
| alias and using a Visa gift card, perhaps?
| wmiel wrote:
| Even if there was, you need to be aware that the DNA has
| much more personal information than your name and
| surname, there can be multiple Joe Does, but probably
| just you with your DNA. Also Joe Doe doesn't tell
| anything about your race, sex, appearance, nor conditions
| while DNA can. Using the DNA you can be traced even if
| you submit it anonymously e.g. one of your relatives may
| upload their DNA which will point to you.
| thaumasiotes wrote:
| > Also Joe Doe doesn't tell anything about your race,
| sex, appearance, nor conditions while DNA can.
|
| Strange thing to say. Joe Doe is male, and Anglophone.
| PicassoCTs wrote:
| https://www.businessinsider.com/why-gsk-
| invested-300-million...
|
| They sell it to drug makers for studies.. and if they sell
| metadata to this pairing (drug + your id) this is a
| giveaway for inherited genetic diseases.
| BurningFrog wrote:
| It's hard for me to be upset at my data helping cure
| disease and save lives like this.
| charia wrote:
| It's very naive to assume it'll only ever be used for
| benevolent purposes.
|
| The situation the above commenter was bringing up was
| that in the near future your genetic information has a
| good chance of being used by insurance companies pre-
| judge you, your offspring and your relatives to raise or
| lower healthcare rates based on information found in that
| data.
| oh_sigh wrote:
| It's very naive to assume any information will only be
| used for benevolent purposes.
|
| The DMV has my picture. In the near future there is a
| good chance that it will be used to conduct a racial
| purge of black people in the US.
|
| Anyone who has their picture taken is naive to me.
| frutiger wrote:
| > pre-judge you
|
| If it's based off accurate genetic data, is it still
| prejudgment? We already accept that car insurance is
| higher for young males without getting mad about it.
|
| Using all available data to make a proper risk assessment
| seems like a reasonable thing to do.
| DangitBobby wrote:
| I see this as an extension of the idea that we should not
| be the sole bearer of the consequences of burdens that
| are not our fault. Where is the fairness in my having
| both a shortened lifespan and the financial devastation
| of a chronic, terminal illness? There is none.
|
| (This was meant as a reply to a sibling comment but the
| "reply" button is absent).
| BurningFrog wrote:
| If your genetics predispose you for a shorter life, you
| can benefit financially by not having to save for
| retirement.
| DangitBobby wrote:
| Genetic predisposition is not a sure thing, so I think
| most people would still save for retirement, genetics
| aside. I'm somewhat convinced that I will die young of
| health complications or social strife in the wake of
| global warming, but I am still saving for retirement. In
| any case, I think it is unreasonable to claim that it
| evens out somehow. It's unfortunate that most people
| don't learn how strong an advantage it is to be in good
| health until they aren't anymore.
| BurningFrog wrote:
| We know my genetic info is being used today in research
| that cures disease and saves lives.
|
| I sleep well knowing that.
|
| You're saying that there is a "good chance" that some
| time in the future US insurance companies will illegally
| use this info to deny people insurance.
|
| I disagree with that probability analysis. Time will
| tell.
| oh_sigh wrote:
| OP only offered their own DNA, and received a service they
| desired in return.
| rvense wrote:
| Aren't all Europeans?
| rantwasp wrote:
| it's more like 1.5-2% typically
| tomjakubowski wrote:
| Every continent has some Neanderthal DNA flowing around.
| Neanderthals were all over Eurasia, and some of their hybrid
| descendants moved to Africa.
|
| https://www.discovermagazine.com/planet-earth/everyone-
| has-n...
| jonnycomputer wrote:
| These headlines kept popping up an image of a comedy flick in
| which ...
|
| A family of neanderthals vacationing to Rome ..
|
| got lost on their tour bus ...
|
| driven by Roberto Benigni ...
|
| Silly I know.
|
| https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0102536/mediaviewer/rm261748787...
| eternalban wrote:
| The sheep romance dialog is hysterically funny. It was a Roman
| Catholic priest that was driven by Benigni's character,
| however.
| LightG wrote:
| I don't get it. How did they get to Rome from Florida?
|
| And I thought Italy was on the US no-fly covid red list?
|
| The plot thickens.
|
| Oh come on ... you know you laughed.
| redis_mlc wrote:
| Florida currently is one of the few US states that represents
| American traditional values, independence and freedom.
|
| Gov. Ron DeSantis will likely be elected US President shortly.
|
| So I guess the joke's on you, Marxist.
|
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ron_DeSantis
| jonnycomputer wrote:
| I think there is a rule about humor on HN somewhere. /s
| Tagbert wrote:
| But a rule about humor would not apply in this case
| hkt wrote:
| The wording of this title was sufficiently ambiguous that I
| assumed the Neanderthals had died recently. This changed the
| story very significantly..!
|
| Still, amazing find, and a wonderful reminder that there is much
| to discover in the archaeological record, wherever we go.
| f6v wrote:
| It'd be cool if the dental calculus was preserved. The microbiome
| sequencing can tell a lot about how people (in a sense that we
| have some neanderthal DNA) and microbes co-evolved [0].
|
| [0] https://doi.org/10.1038/nature21674
| ljf wrote:
| The article explains that tartar has been tested - that in this
| instance is the same thing as calculus
| https://johnrcarsondds.com/plaque-tartar-calculus-difference...
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