[HN Gopher] Eating sardines regularly helps prevent type 2 diabetes
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Eating sardines regularly helps prevent type 2 diabetes
Author : rustoo
Score : 130 points
Date : 2021-05-09 08:51 UTC (14 hours ago)
(HTM) web link (www.uoc.edu)
(TXT) w3m dump (www.uoc.edu)
| cortic wrote:
| >The fact that foods such as sardines - which are rich in
| taurine, omega 3, calcium and vitamin D - have a clear protective
| effect against the onset of diabetes does not mean that taking
| these supplements in isolation will have the same effect.
|
| The only way i can understand this statement it that Rizzolo
| doubts that anything in the sardines are actually affecting type
| 2 diabetes. So perhaps the oily taste is suppressing apatite for
| 'sweet' and decreasing the patients sugar intake (decreasing them
| cheating on their diet).
|
| Anyway a 152 patients study is not very conclusive, in larger
| studies there may not be any effect there at all.
| jdeibele wrote:
| You might be right but what I've read of nutrition is that
| taking supplements is thought to be quite different than eating
| a whole food. Taking Vitamin C tablets is different than eating
| an orange because of all the other things that are in an
| orange. Or what's in spinach or kale or blueberries or
| sardines. I think that's the point she's making.
|
| https://www.mayoclinic.org/healthy-lifestyle/nutrition-and-h...
| nabla9 wrote:
| >but their effect is usually caused by the synergy that exists
| between them
|
| It's simple result from the fact that least available essential
| nutrient is the most important for health outcomes.
|
| If you have a rain barrel full of holes, only fixing the lowest
| hole changes the water level. Fixing all other holes starts to
| have an effect after you have fixed the lowest one.
| szundi wrote:
| I hate the fact that the text compares percentage decrease of a
| group of "high risk" with a group of "very high risk" that makes
| the whole story ambiguous. I hate this, and always think how
| these clever people make these kind of mistakes writing result
| texts. Or do they?
| jancsika wrote:
| Another plus is that you can pretend that sardines are regular-
| sized fish and that you are a giant who is eating them whole.
| inopinatus wrote:
| You say that, but this article is going to be a shot in the fin
| for Big Sardine.
| robflynn wrote:
| That's why I like to eat brussels sprouts! I feel like a giant
| eating whole heads of cabbage! I even got a tiny little grater
| so I can pretend to make slaw as a giant.
| jancsika wrote:
| Not sure if they had a tiny grater, but there's a video on
| reddit somewhere of a cook making a tiny beef wellington. :)
| tailspin2019 wrote:
| I thought it was just me that did that.
|
| On a more serious note, I just tried this excellent sardines
| recipe this week; Fisherman's Eggs [0]. Great for a high
| protein breakfast...
|
| [0] https://www.thesophisticatedcaveman.com/fishermans-eggs/
| jancsika wrote:
| Interesting, though I'd have to fry them up whole there.
| Otherwise the bones would get chopped up, suspending the
| disbelief and returning me to mere mortal size. (In that case
| they'd probably taste like small pieces of salmon bones
| instead of the entire skeleton of a big fish.)
| hourislate wrote:
| I have eaten 1 tin of Sardines everyday as my first meal for over
| 6 months. It takes the guess the work out of what to eat and the
| nutrition is off the charts, it basically replaces a handful of
| supplements. I've been using cronometer to track my diet and
| between the Sardines, a huge salad and a hunk of steak or liver,
| I only ever take the odd Magnesium supplement. Totally eliminated
| my need to buy expensive supplements. As it turns out, I find
| that 1500-1800 Kcal is more than enough everyday to leave me
| feeling stuffed and content and the Sardines alone keep me
| satiated for hours, what a superfood. Today's the last day to
| save $3 on a 6 pack of Sardines at Costco, I've bought about 6
| cases over the last few weeks (180 + cans) to carry me for the
| next 6 months.
|
| Anyone who wants to lose weight and get healthy, this is the food
| that will make a huge difference.
| Havoc wrote:
| Don't like boney fish. Salmon on the other hand is nice...but
| comes with other concerns (environmental, heavy metals etc).
|
| Is there something in between?
| szundi wrote:
| Domesticated salmon is not so healthy anyway, Omega-3 is coming
| from ocean algae. Not that Omega-3 is reproducibly shown to be
| healthy.
| ucha wrote:
| Sardine or mackerel balls. Just remove the spine add an egg,
| some lemon juice and spices and boom, no bones and still
| delicious.
| crispyambulance wrote:
| FWIW, It's OK to eat the bones in canned sardines.
| exhilaration wrote:
| The bones in canned sardines are actually very good for you,
| that's where all the calcium is.
| exhilaration wrote:
| If you're looking for a specific type of salmon my
| understanding is that wild Alaskan salmon has very low levels
| of mercury and the fisheries are healthy. I'm not sure where
| you are but it's widely available in the United States.
| mycologos wrote:
| Some canned sardines are already de-boned, and for most bone-in
| canned sardines, you can just halve each one length-wise and
| pull out the spine in one piece. The bones are also totally
| edible themselves, albeit off-puttingly crunchy to some people.
| elric wrote:
| > Nutrients found in high quantities in sardines - such as
| taurine, omega 3, calcium and vitamin D
|
| Surely this applies to any kind of fatty fish?
| podgaj wrote:
| Mostly white fish and cold water fish.
| chadcmulligan wrote:
| Probably, but sardines are way cheaper and a lot easier to
| store. Also they're at the bottom of the food chain and so less
| heavy metals, and there are a lot more of them in the ocean and
| are in abundance. I've been a long time sardine advocate for a
| fatty fish instead of tuna or salmon, nice to see I have some
| reasons now to support it.
| henearkr wrote:
| I don't understand their conclusion that no supplement can
| replace the sardine.
|
| They indicate that it's probably the combination of DHA, vitamin
| D, and calcium, that is good, so just make a supplement
| containing this combination?
|
| And if there are missing ingredients to the magic of sardine,
| just add them too?
|
| I don't see what's impossible, except that they want to support
| their country's fishing industry.
| hirundo wrote:
| > but only the intervention group added 200 grams of sardines to
| their diet every week (two cans of sardines in olive oil)
|
| So they significantly changed the macro nutrient ratios of the
| intervention group, along with the addition of sardines. I would
| like to see an intervention versus a control group with matched
| macros, to see if the effect is due to more sardines, or to more
| fat and protein and fewer carbohydrates.
| otabdeveloper4 wrote:
| Fun fact: everyone who ate cabbage eventually died. Take care.
| raspasov wrote:
| Appreciate the humor, but perhaps Urban Dictionary is a better
| venue for such a contribution.
| [deleted]
| oddmiral wrote:
| Correlation is not causation.
|
| Ice cream vs homicides:
| https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mQfacqVvOEM
| [deleted]
| roland35 wrote:
| My uncle used to come over and visit my family. He would play
| chess on our laptop (wasn't tech savvy but was amazing at chess)
| with a stack of sardines and a gallon of water. He'd then comment
| "haha your dog loves me! I wonder why?" as he tosses our dog
| another sardine. He was a funny and strange guy, but he loved
| those sardines!
|
| He did tell me back in the 90s that processed carbohydrates were
| really bad for you, so I think he was ahead of the curve!
| pimlottc wrote:
| Did the sardines ever win?
| podgaj wrote:
| I see it now, everyone going to their local mega grocery buying
| sardines packed in sunflower oil, Totally abolishing any of the
| positive effects of omega-3.
| shock wrote:
| Why is sunflower oil unhealthy?
| mycologos wrote:
| I think they're referring to sunflower oil's absence of
| Omega-3s. Per Wikipedia [1]:
|
| > The ratios of omega-6 to omega-3 fatty acids in some common
| vegetable oils are: canola 2:1, hemp 2-3:1, soybean 7:1,
| olive 3-13:1, sunflower, flax 1:3, cottonseed (almost no
| omega-3), peanut (no omega-3), grapeseed oil and corn oil
| 46:1.
|
| My understanding is that there's some Omega-6:Omega-3 ratio
| to shoot for, and most western diets are far more biased
| toward Omega-6, so adding some Omega-3 (sardines) along with
| a bunch of Omega-6 and no Omega-3 (sunflower oil) would
| actually work against that goal.
|
| [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Omega-3_fatty_acid#Plant_so
| urc...
| podgaj wrote:
| I will add here to clarify my stance on food and health.
|
| There is no healthy food, only food that is healthy for you,
| and that will be determined by your genetics. Wheat is not
| healthy for celiac and short chain PUFAs and bad for me.
|
| But too much of any food or nutrient can override genetics as
| well.
| jbverschoor wrote:
| Most sunflower oil isn't really sunflower oil. It's the
| leftovers being extracted using hexane.
| throwamon wrote:
| I don't think that's what they meant exactly, but rather that
| the amounts of omega-3 and 6 you consume should be in a
| specific ratio (or rather within a range of ratios), and the
| ratio in canned sardines is tilted towards the unhealthy
| side. There are other pairs of nutrients that follow this
| pattern as well. I highly recommend reading about them on
| Examine.com, but I suppose even Healthline will do.
| raspasov wrote:
| Yes... That's one of the things that concerns me also me about
| canned sardines. Even if it says "olive oil" I have a feeling
| that it's a pretty low quality one in most cases and definitely
| not EVOO (extra virgin olive oil) which is the good stuff.
|
| Looking for any specific recommendations for brands, websites
| etc.
| Mountain_Skies wrote:
| Though I haven't looked into it extensively, here in the US
| I've only seen olive oil and soybean oil on sardine ingredients
| labels. Might be different in other parts of the world but here
| soybean oil seems to be the oil of choice when cost cutting
| gets involved.
| mvidal01 wrote:
| Unfortunatly sardines are high in purines so I get sometimes get
| gout when eating them.
| bayesian_horse wrote:
| What will cure/prevent type 2 diabetes is a low-carb, high-fat
| diet.
|
| Sardines are a low-carb, high-fat food. Eating them replaces a
| big load of the carbs people usually consume, and just like that
| they reduce the amount of insulin they have to produce, reducing
| their insulin resistance and so on. Omega-3 fatty acids are just
| a slight benefit, probably, and not so much for the diabetes.
|
| But "Just eat a can of sardines every now and then" is just a
| lucky guess. There are a lot of additional, more effective ways
| to reduce insulin sensitivity.
| snarf21 wrote:
| Yeah, eating noting but sardines pizza isn't going to end well.
| 1123581321 wrote:
| What other ways are you thinking of? Whole eggs, vegetables
| cooked in butter or oil, and fatty cuts of meat are probably
| the easiest for most people. But sardines are also easy because
| they're precooked.
|
| Strength training, and good sleep to support the training, also
| help a great deal, but is not as easily managed as adding
| something relatively tasty and convenient to one's diet.
|
| Eating a high quantity of diverse vegetables every day is a
| great idea but the practical effectiveness stumbles due to the
| difficulty of the habit change.
| Ecco wrote:
| "Sardines will therefore have a protective element because they
| are rich in the aforementioned nutrients, whereas nutrients taken
| in isolation in the form of supplements won't work to the same
| extent" : to me this reads as "we found a correlation but we are
| clueless about the root cause".
| woko wrote:
| True. The "root cause" could be that one improves one's diet:
|
| - if you take "sardine" supplement pills and go on eating
| burgers and fries, do not expect a miracle with respect to type
| 2 pre-diabetes,
|
| - if you eat sardines as part of a meal, I suspect that you are
| likely to *replace* parts of your current diet with the (fatty)
| fish, rather than keep your usual diet and add fish on top of
| it.
|
| For instance, a funny paragraph from section 4 (Discussion)
| hints that the SG (Sardine Group) must have added _less_ olive
| oil to the rest of their meals:
|
| > Another possible limitation of the study to bear in mind is
| the use of canned sardines in olive oil, which, despite easing
| distribution and consumption, present differences in MUFA
| content as compared to fresh sardines. Although this may have
| modified the pattern of lipids consumed, the SG group decreased
| their overall MUFA consumption. This could be due to the fact
| that the use of olive oil added to meals did not occur when
| they consumed the canned sardines and, therefore, there are no
| differences in its consumption with respect to CG.
|
| NB: I don't want to dismiss any part of the article, I only
| want to insist that it is hard to isolate causes because of
| this effect of "communicating vases".
| void_mint wrote:
| > - if you take "sardine" supplement pills and go on eating
| burgers and fries, do not expect a miracle with respect to
| type 2 pre-diabetes,
|
| The way I generally describe the result of switching from no
| intentional diet to any trendy/FOTM/recent diet is mostly
| just that a person begins to give a shit about what they're
| eating, which results in an array of positive benefits not
| directly related to that diet. Ketogenic diets are a good
| example. People go from not caring about what they eat,
| regularly eating fast food, sugary snacks/drinks, deep fried
| carbohydrates, etc. to spending a bunch of money on expensive
| butter and grass fed beef. They then lose weight. Sure,
| ketosis is a big deal, but in reality the biggest factor in a
| person's weight loss/health improvement is just replacing
| high calorie, high sugar, high carb, high fat food with no
| sugar, low/no carb, reasonable calorie food. (This is not an
| attack on the ketogenic diet. There is plenty of research for
| and against it. As with all diets, if you find positive
| outcomes while trying it, keep doing it! The goal is health).
|
| I think the real test would be, what positive benefits _do
| exist_ when a person changes nothing else but includes a pack
| (tin? can? box?) of high quality sardines weekly. If nothing,
| I feel like it kind of just falls into the category of "being
| specific and intentional about dietary choices brings health
| benefits", which isn't necessarily new or ground breaking.
| podgaj wrote:
| This is true, just adding sardines your diet will probably do
| nothing for most people. It's more about the elimination of
| other things we eat as well. It wasn't until I was eating
| only salmon for my fat and protein source that I was able to
| raise my HDL from 35 to 54!.
|
| I credit this to totally eliminating the omega-6 fats. But
| this is just me because I'm a genetic freak with
| hyperlipidemia.
| bayesian_horse wrote:
| The value of reducing Omega-6 is over-hyped. The issue here
| is that when you eat a can of sardines, you tend to not eat
| them with a big load of carbohydrates, like white bread,
| rice, pasta, fries...
| lapsis_beeftech wrote:
| Totally eliminating omega-6 from your diet can't be
| healthy, can it? There are only two essential fatty acids
| for humans and one of them (linoleic acid) is omega-6.
| podgaj wrote:
| Well, I exaggerated to make a point. Even salmon has long
| chain omega 6. I soul have said "eliminating plant based
| omega 6" and this is just for me and my genetics. People
| without certain FADS1 genetics can do fine with short
| chain omega 3 and 6.
| azalemeth wrote:
| Edit - I managed to mis-read the press release and read through
| the wrong paper in detail! Disregard the below...
|
| <s> Quite. If you read the paper --
| https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-020-59643-7.pdf -- the
| word 'sardine' doesn't appear once; 'fish' doesn't either.
|
| The trouble with observational cohort studies is that causality
| is very hard, if not impossible, to identify. Their main result
| is based on multivariate logistic regression. I like logistic
| regression as a technique, and it is very powerful, but if, for
| example, there is an unmeasured cofounding or causal variable
| that manifests itself as a linear combination of a number of
| measured but perhaps more acausal variables, it _will_
| confidently give you the wrong result. </s>
| yawnxyz wrote:
| Isn't this the paper...? https://www.sciencedirect.com/scienc
| e/article/abs/pii/S02615...
| azalemeth wrote:
| Do'h. Thank you - I'd skim-read the news release very
| quickly and jumped to the first paper linked, which I now
| see was published in 2020. Apologies.
| ivanhoe wrote:
| These are very complex bio-chem processes, so there's probably
| no single "root cause", but a multivariable situation where
| certain combinations of nutrients in certain proportion causes
| these beneficial effects. Also nutrients in supplements often
| don't have the same bioavailability as in natural products, so
| it's possible that you take in the same amount of nutrients per
| label, but your body actually ends up absorbing only a small %
| of it. Supplements are not that strictly regulated, so many of
| them are fairly poor quality products making wild claims,
| counting just on marketing BS to sell.
| evgen wrote:
| No, it simply repeats the commonly understood fact that it is
| better to have a diet rich in specific nutrients than to try to
| use supplements to make up the difference. Everything from
| dosage to bio-availability of supplements shows them to mostly
| be not worth the price of manufacture, let alone the price
| people pay at the till.
| podgaj wrote:
| There are times, however, the high-dose vitamins Are the only
| thing that can replace a deficiency Quickly enough. Two of
| them that come to mind are zinc and biotin. So like
| everything else in nutrition, it depends, of deficiencies and
| genetics.
| vanderZwan wrote:
| While I can follow that line of thinking, we also shouldn't
| immediately be dismissive of the conclusions of a
| professor/researcher at a faculty of health sciences. At least
| not without a good reason to believe that we have more
| expertise on the subject than them.
|
| On the other hand, there might also be a bit of Spanish
| cultural bias at work there (Spain is the second-largest
| consumer of fish after Japan). On the _other_ other hand, it
| would fit into the mystery of the mediterranean diet.
| Ecco wrote:
| I didn't mean to dismiss their conclusions! It might be a
| pretty awesome discovery actually: eat delicious sardines and
| avoid getting diabetes? Count me in!
|
| I just meant that, as is often the case, great discoveries
| are often made before we really understand them. For example,
| isn't this what happened with antibiotics?
| vanderZwan wrote:
| Ah, like that! Fair enough, thank you for elaborating
| (please consider adding a bit of extra context next time,
| it will go a long way to prevent such misunderstandings)
| ackbar03 wrote:
| Since supplements have been brought up, what's with the
| American's obsession over supplements? It's like people are
| just chomping them down like they're some sort of food stable
| like bread or rice (or maybe that's just what all the youtube
| videos want you to think). Its like every bodybuilder on
| youtube has their own brand of supplements now. Don't even get
| me started on pre-workout. "Don't feel like working out? Chug
| this powder!"
| KingMachiavelli wrote:
| Certain segments of America tend to have poor diets.
| Especially the young, working class which happens to overlap
| with the bodybuilding class which makes whey protein a
| logical choice. Whey protein. It is very cheap; just add mix
| in a multivitamin and OTC stimulants like caffeine and you
| have a very marketable product with a 300% markup.
|
| The YouTube body building demographic is in the same economic
| class so capitalizing on a product their audience already
| uses makes perfect sense.
|
| Also, America is one of the few countries with consumer
| pharmaceutical advertising so marketing supplements is not
| out of the ordinary.
| opportune wrote:
| Approximately nobody mixes whey protein with caffeine. Not
| sure what you're talking about
| catblast01 wrote:
| Look up "protein coffee" and maybe try to lay off the
| snark a bit if you don't know what you're talking about.
| bayesian_horse wrote:
| Supplements don't cure diabetes.
|
| The sardines are a very high-fat food item that will satiate
| you and potentially replace a big load of carbohydrates.
| Which would affect the prediabetes.
| wincy wrote:
| I've found exactly one supplement that had a major impact on
| my quality of life, and that's magnesium. Something about
| magnesium supplements greatly reduced my daily anxiety, to
| the point that I was amazed because I'd always just imagined
| I was an "anxious person".
| zokula wrote:
| How much do you take a day an
|
| In dosage?
| opportune wrote:
| With bodybuilding most bodybuilders will agree that the only
| (legal) effective supplement for weightlifting is creatine,
| with vitamin D, fish oil, and multivitamins generally
| recognized as also useful for general health. But the most
| important "supplements" are anabolics which of course can't
| be legally advertised. The problem is average Joe doesn't
| know that, and bodybuilders need to make money (most make
| very little if any money from bodybuilding) so they do
| endorsements and marketing for health brands which are
| _legal_ even if they may not be effective.
|
| Preworkout is a bit different because it actually is
| marginally useful for workouts, and I think most actual
| bodybuilders take some form of it. But it's super cheap to
| produce so most of the expense is on marketing. You can make
| homemade PWO with stimulants and "pump supplements" for super
| cheap if you buy the raw compounds
| biswaroop wrote:
| Fun fact about sardines: they used to be super popular in the US,
| until they were massively overfished on the west coast (Cannery
| Row is the classic example). They were gradually replaced over
| the 80s with milder fishes like tuna and tilapia.
| schwartzworld wrote:
| Sardines are a household favorite for us. My kids love them.
|
| The secret is, don't buy cheap ones. Look for brisling or any
| other small fish packed in olive oil. $3-5/can is a good sweet
| spot, although you can pay $9 for a can of imported Portuguese
| sardines no problem.
|
| Speaking of Portugal, they do grilled fresh sardines. My 3 year
| old insisted on eating them daily when we were in Lisbon
| kzrdude wrote:
| So I wonder what the diabetes rate is in Portugal, then
| Wistar wrote:
| FWIW, According to 2019 data from the International Diabetes
| Federation, Portugal is ranked 53rd (9.8%) out of 195
| countries for prevalence of both type 1 and type 2 diabetes.
| Kiribati ranked 1st at 22.5% of the population between the
| ages of 20 and 79 having either type of diabetes and Benin
| ranked 195th at 1%.
|
| https://www.indexmundi.com/facts/indicators/SH.STA.DIAB.ZS/r.
| ..
| pkaye wrote:
| UK has pretty low prevalence at 3.90% and Ireland at 3.20%?
| What is their secret?
| vogon_laureate wrote:
| Fish and chips and the finest ales in all the land.
| pimlottc wrote:
| I'm no connoisseur but Trader Joe's lightly smoked sardines are
| quite good, and the price is right.
| KozmoNau7 wrote:
| Fresh grilled sardines on the beach in Malaga is one of my
| absolute favorite vacation memories. Baking sun, ice cold beer
| and fresh seafood is a powerful combination.
| culturestate wrote:
| _> Speaking of Portugal, they do grilled fresh sardines_
|
| One of my Portuguese guilty pleasures, along with (ethically
| questionable, I know) octopus salad. Highly recommend trying
| this if you can get your hands on some fresh sardines.
|
| _Edit:_ grilled sardines are also a Japanese thing, so you
| might have luck finding them at an Asian market if your
| fishmonger doesn 't have them.
| spaceribs wrote:
| I've rationalized eating the very intelligent octopus with
| the fact that they live for a maximum of like 2 years.
| giantg2 wrote:
| Haven't sardines, like most other fish, been overfished,
| making them ethically questionable too?
| morley wrote:
| I rely on SeafoodWatch.org to advise on fish
| sustainability, and it doesn't look good for sardines: http
| s://www.seafoodwatch.org/recommendations/search?query=%3...
| kalari wrote:
| Overfishing of sardines happen because most of it is ground
| up and used as feed in aquaculture (which is very
| inefficient). Instead, if you consume sardines directly, it
| will be a more sustainable enterprise.
| blablabla123 wrote:
| Yes, kind of. That said, as far as I know anything that is
| more complex to digest like dark bread helps prevent type 2
| diabetes. (But maybe it's anyway better to talk to a real
| doctor or at least a food expert if that is any concern...)
| ptsneves wrote:
| As a portuguese I can tell you that sardine stocks are
| heavily controlled and regulated and there are years where
| the catchable tonnage is severely reduced. As the fish
| markets are centralized, meaning fishermen need to sell
| their catch in a government auction house, you cannot
| really do industrial fishing out of allowed stock quotas.
| Sardines quotas are the target of heavy diplomatic
| negotiations with EU.
| wjaugustyn wrote:
| South Africa has a pretty strong S. sagax stock, but it
| all gets canned or ground into fish meal. Eating fresh
| sardines just isn't part of the culture -- so sad.
| dtech wrote:
| Aside from eating animals in general, what is ethically
| questionable of octopus salad?
| rosege wrote:
| Quite possibly the poster is referring to the intelligence
| of octopuses. Have a look at My Octopus Teacher (On
| Netflix) and you will see.
| culturestate wrote:
| They're incredibly intelligent, and there's a healthy
| debate around whether they're actually conscious[1]. I tend
| to question whether I should be eating something that might
| reasonably be aware, were it alive, that it's about to die.
|
| 1. see e.g. https://qz.com/1045782/an-octopus-is-the-
| closest-thing-to-an...
| amanaplanacanal wrote:
| I'm pretty certain the mammals we eat are conscious, and
| that doesn't seem to bother most of us.
| nefitty wrote:
| Prevailing attitudes aren't a good barometer for judging
| the ethics of our individual choices.
| slim wrote:
| Plus sometimes an animal eats another animal with a
| higher degree of consciousness than himself. A tiger
| eating a monkey for example.
| c22 wrote:
| I've had a growing suspicion that even plants have more
| 'awareness' than we give them credit for. You still gotta
| eat, though.
| bourgwaletariat wrote:
| They are certainly _aware_. At the simplest level, we
| know for a fact they respond to their environment. On
| accelerated time scales, it is also fairly obvious to see
| them _compete_ with other plants and branches of
| _themselves_. We also know they _communicate_ with other
| plants, warning them of the danger of insect predators,
| to which they respond by increasing the production of
| natural insecticides.
|
| Though I can't prove it, I'm edging toward the belief
| they _share resources_ with each other, including water
| and nutrients through the root system.
|
| All these facts and ideas are easily undone by
| particularly defining "awareness" and so this is largely
| a terminological problem.
|
| The discussion quickly becomes, "Define awareness." or
| ... more generally ... "Define consciousness," which we
| see with machines, insects, plants, even single celled
| organisms.
|
| Here's what science _does_ tell us _repeatedly_ : Those
| things which humans as a species are convinced have _no_
| consciousness is decreasing. Most, even today, would not
| believe an octopus is conscious, but we now think they
| are. Dolphins. Birds, even fish now have scientific
| studies indicating they are self-aware.
|
| So, yeah, justifying the eating of plants because they
| lack self-awareness isn't a valid argument in my book.
|
| That doesn't absolve us of a mission to reduce suffering
| for the things we eat.
|
| Plants can certainly suffer and it's trivial to identify.
| DangitBobby wrote:
| Do really people not consider mammals--even mammals they
| have regular exposure to such as dogs and cats--to be
| conscious? I know people tend to have a superiority
| complex when it comes to other animals but I have a hard
| time believing that they don't consider them to be
| conscious.
| bourgwaletariat wrote:
| Yes, there are vast numbers of them. I know doctors who
| do not believe the dog at the door wagging its tail when
| the person arrives to be experiencing emotions.
|
| I believe the dog is happy and excited and eager to greet
| its friend of another species, but many, many people
| believe that dog is exhibiting purely mechanical behavior
| driven by instinct alone.
| [deleted]
| nradov wrote:
| The existence of consciousness in other species doesn't
| mean we have a mission to reduce suffering. That's an
| illogical non sequitur.
| raspasov wrote:
| Are there specific brands you'd recommend?
| eb0la wrote:
| In Spain is very easy to get them in to beach or in restaurants
| nearby.
|
| You can also made them in the oven wrapped in aluminium paper
| if you don't have a proper grill.
| gentleman11 wrote:
| I stopped eating them because my roommate can't stand the
| smell. Same for smoked oysters. I miss them both a lot
| nbenitezl wrote:
| Yeah they smell strong, that's why I had to stop bringing
| them to my job's kitchen office.
| paulryanrogers wrote:
| Have you considered the risk of mercury accumulation?
| Alex3917 wrote:
| Sardines are fairly low in mercury. You might not want to eat
| them every day, but a few times a week shouldn't be a problem
| as long as you're not also eating other fish that are higher
| in mercury.
| foxbarrington wrote:
| Sardines seem to have the lowest mercury concentration of any
| fish: https://www.fda.gov/food/metals-and-your-food/mercury-
| levels...
| [deleted]
| CyanDeparture wrote:
| If anyone is wondering how to eat sardines, open a tin (I like
| the tins with them in tomato sauce) and just mash them onto some
| toast. No need for butter. It is a glorious lunch.
| fctorial wrote:
| What about parasites?
| mycologos wrote:
| ... what about them? Canned sardines are cooked?
| crispyambulance wrote:
| canned sardines are already cooked!
| fctorial wrote:
| Steam cooked. Parasites (especially their eggs) are very
| resilient. Meat that isn't fried or pressure cooked is not
| safe to eat.
| yjftsjthsd-h wrote:
| If a person were concerned, where would they find more
| information about this?
| mycologos wrote:
| > very resilient
|
| Aren't canned fish heated to 100C+ and then sealed in an
| anaerobic environment? What parasite can survive this?
| troydavis wrote:
| If anyone in the US is new to sardines, of the choices available
| in US grocery stores, Matiz is by far the best. I recommend
| ordering online, where you'll find other great choices like La
| Gondola, Angelo Parodi, Nuri/Pinhais, and Bela.
|
| (If you're in Europe, try Rodel sardines at least once in your
| life. They're completely unavailable in North America.)
| AuryGlenz wrote:
| What do you do with them? I've never made or had anything with
| sardines in my life.
| biswaroop wrote:
| I usually eat them with cheese and homemade bread. Sometimes
| I'll add a caprese salad on the side, and that's dinner.
|
| Another fantastic recipe is pasta con le sarde. It's a
| classic Sicilian pasta with sardines, fennel, saffron and
| nuts.
| chadcmulligan wrote:
| My Favourite recipe - sardines on toast
|
| - red onions sliced and cooked in brown sugar and vinegar
| (quick pickle), cook until the onion is cooked down.
|
| - Toast up a piece of sourdough
|
| - Spread with mustard
|
| - Add slices of tomato, sardines and red onion pickles on
| top, add some parsley or basil if you like.
|
| You can also had some capers if you're so inclined.
|
| or drizzle some lemon juice and/or olive oil on top
| troydavis wrote:
| Gently mash them up with some of the olive oil that's in the
| tin (usually not all of it, or you'll mostly be eating olive
| oil). Use that as a spread on bread, toast, or crackers, or
| mix with something that doesn't have a lot of flavor on its
| own, like farro or another mild grain.
| pimlottc wrote:
| I usually just eat them straight on a cracker or toast, maybe
| with some mustard or mayo or some other nice spread
| giantg2 wrote:
| Great Value isn't too bad. They're cheap.
| benevol wrote:
| On the other hand, it significantly reduces the health of certain
| sardines.
| Codesleuth wrote:
| This article seems to be akin to many others that promote
| carnivorous diets. "Drinking milk reduces X" or "eating [insert
| animal here] improves Y" might be true, but you don't need to
| consume the animal (and prolong the environmental impacts) to
| get them.
| podgaj wrote:
| Wrong. There is a tremendous more amount of evidence that
| eating fish helps cardiovascular health. Unlike the
| "carnivore diet" where they just cherry pick RCTs.
|
| And for those who say "you don't have to eat the animal to
| get the health benefits", please tell that to any Inuit or
| Saami people. They lived on his diet for generations and it's
| affected their genome as a result.
| thraxil wrote:
| Taurine, omega 3, calcium, and vitamin D, the nutrients
| discussed in the article are all available from sources
| other than fish. If you take someone who has a diet that's
| deficient in one or more those and give them sardines, then
| it's not surprising to see improvements. But it doesn't
| show that sardines/fish are the _only_ way to get those
| benefits or that adding sardines /fish to a diet that isn't
| deficient in those nutrients would have any benefit.
|
| The fact that Inuit and Saami people have been able to
| survive on primarily meat diets only demonstrates that it's
| _possible_ to survive on those diets, not that they are
| ideal in any way or better than any other diet.
| podgaj wrote:
| The Inuit and Saami have lived on those diets for so long
| they became genetically adapted to them. The same is true
| for many Northern Europeans.
|
| When they do not adhere to these diets they have worse
| outcomes.
|
| https://science.sciencemag.org/content/349/6254/1343
|
| So those diets are better FOR THEM, not for everyone. But
| the same could hold true for you or me. I know it is true
| for me because I have Saami heritage and the diet cures
| my hyperlipidemia.
|
| And Taurine, omega 3, calcium, and vitamin D are not the
| only thing in the fish. There is a synergy that humans
| could never find with logic.
| thraxil wrote:
| > There is a synergy that humans could never find with
| logic.
|
| Perhaps, but there is no science that demonstrates that.
|
| It sounds like you are looking at this research and
| coming to stronger and more general conclusions than they
| claim. Again, most of it seems to be of the form "we took
| some people who were deficient in [some nutrient that is
| found in fish], gave them fish, and found that they did
| better than a control group who weren't given fish". Eg,
| the paper you link to shows that Greenland Inuits are
| genetically adapted to higher levels of PUFAs in their
| diet. It doesn't make any claims that those PUFAs have to
| come from fish. The paper that that one cites as showing
| that "fish oil supplementation is associated with
| increased concentrations of plasma insulin-like growth
| factor-1" (https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/22337227/)
| does indeed show that association, but it doesn't show
| that non-fish oil sources of DHA (eg, algae-sourced DHA)
| don't also produce the same effect because they didn't
| test that.
|
| That you've found _a_ diet that cures your hyperlipidemia
| doesn 't mean that that's the _only_ diet that could
| achieve that or even that it 's the best one.
|
| Your previous comment:
|
| > And for those who say "you don't have to eat the animal
| to get the health benefits", please tell that to any
| Inuit or Saami people. They lived on his diet for
| generations and it's affected their genome as a result.
|
| Actually sounds like an argument _against_ a meat /fish
| heavy diet. If eating it for generations results in
| genetic changes that produce problems like
| hyperlipidemia, maybe it's not something that we should
| recommend or promote.
|
| (An aside, as someone who's also of partial Sami descent
| (Northern Sweden, represent!), I do want to point out
| that the Sami diet was/is not strictly carnivore; it also
| traditionally includes a lot of flatbreads, berries, and
| foraged plants like mountain sorrel and wild celery).
| podgaj wrote:
| Woot! Finnish here!
|
| I agree with you on the Saami diet, I was generalizing
| for the Sake of brevity in the comments. I am in no way
| any kind of carnivore or Paleo freak. I only have general
| guidelines and loose interpretations about what I should
| eat.
|
| You're right though, I have no scientific Evidence for
| synergy. But it is our arrogance to think we know
| everything that is in food And how it affects our bodies.
| This could never be tested scientifically.
|
| But you've mistaken my argument as well. The genetic
| changes of the Inuit make them more susceptible to
| disease only when they are on a western diet. when they
| are on their ancestral diet they have no problems. Eating
| that much seafood makes them dependent on eating seafood.
| Do you understand that better?
|
| Just like living in Africa change the color of people
| skin it actually makes them more dependent on getting
| sunlight. Does a sunlamp replace the sun? Hard to say.
| kinleyd wrote:
| You, sir/madam, have pointed out a most germane fact.
| [deleted]
| kspacewalk2 wrote:
| And, unlike the original finding, this one is robust and
| unlikely to be due to confounders.
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