[HN Gopher] Lung cancer in never-smokers: a hidden disease (2019)
___________________________________________________________________
Lung cancer in never-smokers: a hidden disease (2019)
Author : YeGoblynQueenne
Score : 122 points
Date : 2021-05-03 10:28 UTC (12 hours ago)
(HTM) web link (journals.sagepub.com)
(TXT) w3m dump (journals.sagepub.com)
| calibas wrote:
| Various scientists and organizations have been yelling for years
| that air pollution is one of the leading causes heart disease and
| cancer. It's not "hidden", it's being ignored...
|
| https://www.iarc.who.int/wp-content/uploads/2018/07/AirPollu...
| throwawaysea wrote:
| Does the possibility of other causes (like air pollution) also
| mean that some portion of lung cancer incidents are
| misattributed to smoking, overstating its dangers by some
| amount?
| hammock wrote:
| Smoking increases your risk of cancer from air pollution, so
| it's not so simple
| hammock wrote:
| Radon is the second leading cause of lung cancer
| hammock wrote:
| Air pollution was a huge issue when I was growing up as a kid,
| the #1 environmental cause. At some point people stopped
| talking about it and focused mostly on global warming.
| agumonkey wrote:
| Do you, or anyone around here, use air cleaning devices in your
| homes ?
| gher-shyu3i wrote:
| It's not hard to build a DIY air filter with a box fan. Lots
| of videos on youtube.
| calibas wrote:
| I have an air quality monitoring device and I live in a place
| with clean air, so I just open a window. A PM2.5 of 2.318
| (ug/m3) inside my room at the moment.
| [deleted]
| bokchoi wrote:
| My father also died last year from lung cancer and never smoked
| in his life.
| gadf wrote:
| Sorry for you to hear that :(
| knolan wrote:
| Here in Ireland we have a lot of limestone and new houses must
| have radon barriers in their foundation. People living in older
| houses without them are susceptible to lung cancer. Growing up my
| parents always kept our windows open when possible. My
| grandmother, a non-smoker, died of lung cancer.
| coldcode wrote:
| My mom died of lung cancer (actually brain cancer which often
| is the end result) but never smoked; however her father smoked
| all his life, and my dad smoked for decades before quitting. We
| never did figure out where the original cancer came from. End
| stage lung/brain cancer is a terrible way to go, which is why I
| have zero idea why anyone smokes at all.
| TaupeRanger wrote:
| If you don't die from lung cancer you'll die from some other
| terrible thing. I don't smoke but I can see why, if it gives
| someone satisfaction and/or relaxation, they would be willing
| to risk that kind of death in exchange for a lifetime of
| mental hacks (though there are arguably safer methods of
| similar efficacy).
| usgroup wrote:
| Unfortunately smoking doesn't really do that either. I'd
| say it has close to no benefits from a day to day cognitive
| perspective anecdotally. I think it's the same for coffee.
|
| Great for socialising though . Smokers have more fun at
| parties since you end up chatting to other smokers whilst
| outside in sub zero weather sucking on your death stick.
|
| And damn do I miss a cig after dinner
| anders_p wrote:
| I was a smoker for 20 of the 45 I've been alive. Around 1
| pack a day.
|
| It was exactly the social aspect of smoking that I liked
| the most, now that I look back at it.
|
| Smokers have an easier time establishing a bond, when
| placed in new groups like work or school. They meet up at
| the designated smoking spot and chat while smoking. It's
| a great ice breaker.
|
| I found that I had an easier time, when having to do
| group work, than non-smokers since there was already a
| loose connection with the other smokers. It was always
| the non-smokers, who were having difficulty finding group
| mates.
|
| I now vape on an e-cigarette instead. Still go with the
| smokers, so I have not lost the social benefits :)
|
| I highly recommend giving e-cigarettes a try, for any of
| you smokers out there, who are having a difficult time,
| quitting the habit.
|
| I'm aware that it's in no way healthier, but am convinced
| that it's less damaging. Anecdotal, yes, but it sure
| feels like a better alternative. Tried nicotine gum,
| band-aids etc., but I guess there was more to my
| addiction than just the nicotine. The rituals of inhaling
| and fondling with something. It's the only thing that's
| worked for me.
| anders_p wrote:
| Correction. Can't edit, but the last paragraph should've
| been:
|
| "I know that it's in no way HEALTHY*, but..."
| pvarangot wrote:
| I got one of those vape things people use for dry weed
| that gets up to 405F and vape dry rolling tobacco. You
| can do it inside as it doesn't smell or the smell is
| pleasant or you can use as an excuse to go hang out with
| the other smokers too.
|
| You also are only burning tobacco and inhale almost no
| plant matter. I would give it a try. I feel better with
| that than with e-cigs.
| TaupeRanger wrote:
| What? Who are you responding to? I said it helps one
| relax and/or gives satisfaction, and then you said "it
| doesn't do that" (using a personal anecdote as evidence?)
| but then your last sentence suggests you did actually
| experience those things you said you didn't? I can't
| understand what your point was here.
| m00dy wrote:
| Your comment made me smile :)
| halikular wrote:
| You have more fun in the actual party inside.
| Robotbeat wrote:
| Man, lung cancer and stomach cancer are two of the worst
| ways to go...
| TaupeRanger wrote:
| Not much different than other ways of slowly dying TBH.
| They're all mostly horrible.
| da_big_ghey wrote:
| i have knew persons who were dying in peace while sleep.
| i only am hoping i shall be this fortuneate.
| refurb wrote:
| That happened to my grandfather as well. 3 pack a day
| smoker and died in his sleep at 70.
|
| But I agree otherwise. My wife's parents both lived into
| their late 90's but had lost most of their cognitive
| ability for the last 5 years - so much they couldn't live
| independently. Not sure that's a great alternative death.
| halikular wrote:
| The nicotine is what CAUSES the stress in the first place,
| and you have to relive it by smoking or ingesting the
| nicotine in another way. So essentially what you have done
| is raised the baseline stress level and you temporarily
| lower it when you get your nicotine. Then the stress levels
| will be ascending proportionally to the nicotine
| concentration in your blood which is constantly metabolized
| and descending. Nicotine has a half life of about 1-2
| hours, so it doesn't last very long.
| TaupeRanger wrote:
| Hard to follow this. Do you mean the _lack_ of nicotine
| causes stress during withdrawal? Of course it does, but
| that doesn 't mean a person can't get a net overall
| decrease in stress by smoking regularly. I'm not
| suggesting it of course, but I can understand the
| personal motivation of someone who does.
| halikular wrote:
| The nicotine levels rapidly decrease just minutes after
| smoking and stress levels are beginning to climb in
| response until you smoke another cigarette. The cycle
| repeats and the average stress levels over time than for
| a non-smoker. If you're addicted you always stress about
| when you are getting your next dose of nicotine.
| vharuck wrote:
| It's a good idea to test basement radon levels when buying a
| new house. In my state, it's a check box on the required
| paperwork, so every buyer can see it's an option. The tests are
| cheap and quick. Check with your state for any help with
| finding testers or paying for the tests and mitigation systems.
|
| Radon levels vary a lot. In Pennsylvania, the worst areas lie
| along the Appalachians, but even then neighboring houses can
| have huge differences in radon. So even if your soon-to-be
| neighbors didn't have a problem, do the test.
| verelo wrote:
| Glad someone brought up radon. No one knows about it. Get a HRV
| or ERV and ideally slab depressurization, Google the terms if
| unfamiliar folks! Enjoy the diy projects haha
| dboreham wrote:
| Slab depressurization (essentially creating a partial vacuum
| under a building's concrete slab floor) can work very well.
| These days usable radon concentration meters are quite
| affordable. I used one in a building I own to verify the
| effectiveness of a slab depressurization system. It reduced
| measured radiation levels to a small fraction of the
| baseline. Of course you need a building with a slab
| foundation to use this technique.
| verelo wrote:
| Yeah it's an amazingly simple approach. I did it in a house
| i renovated, the building inspected tried to stop me as he
| wasn't familiar with the system and thought it would
| actually allow radon in. Turns out he had a family member
| die from lung cancer and they believed they was a possible
| link. I expect at some point it'll be part of most modern
| building codes where there is a basement connecting to a
| living space.
| secondcoming wrote:
| My parents house was part of a national radon survey in Ireland
| back in the 90's I think. I had a small little black
| monitor/'counter' in my bedroom for maybe a year (I'm a bit
| fuzzy on the details). Anyway, they sent us the results when
| the experiment ended and we sent the device back.
|
| The results were quite bad I seem to recall (I may be mis-
| remembering according to [0]) Our house was in rural Cork and
| was build by my parents in the 80's.
|
| My father died from lung cancer but he was a heavy smoker; my
| mother smokes very occasionally and she's fine.
|
| However, my aunt, who lived next door, maintained a very
| healthy lifestyle and also died of lung cancer; her husband is
| also fine.
|
| [0] https://www.epa.ie/radiation/radonmap/
| dccoolgai wrote:
| Don't forget asbestos, which despite all the hubbub never got
| banned. It's used in all kinds of stuff and just one or two
| microfibers of it in your lungs and your fate of a slow painful
| death is sealed.
| the-dude wrote:
| > just one or two microfibers of it in your lungs and your fate
| of a slow painful death is sealed.
|
| Hell of a claim. Sources?
| Someone wrote:
| https://www.britsafe.org/publications/safety-management-
| maga...:
|
| * In July 1984 the Health and Safety Executive (HSE)
| published an update to guidance note EH10, Asbestos - Control
| Limits, measurement of airborne dust concentrations and the
| assessment of control measures, which introduced a limit
| value of 0.01 fibre/ml.*
|
| That's 100 fibers/liter, so at least that with every breath
| you take.
|
| Because of that, I think that, if that claim is true, it only
| is if you wouldn't die of something else first.
| stordoff wrote:
| The stance of the HSE in 2010 is worth mentioning:
|
| > There is a lack of scientific consensus as to whether
| there exists a threshold of exposure to asbestos below
| which a person is at zero risk of developing mesothelioma.
| However, there is evidence from epidemiological studies of
| asbestos exposed groups that any threshold for mesothelioma
| must be at a very low level - and it is fairly widely
| agreed that if a threshold does exists then it cannot
| currently be quantified. For practical purposes HSE does
| not assume that such a threshold exists.
|
| https://web.archive.org/web/20111030182149/http://www.hse.g
| o...
| dccoolgai wrote:
| >The one asbestos disease that is different is mesothelioma.
| Very small amounts of asbestos can give you mesothelioma.
| Asbestos workers' families have gotten mesothelioma from the
| dust the workers brought home on their clothes.
|
| https://www.health.state.mn.us/communities/environment/asbes.
| ..
| the-dude wrote:
| The magic word there is of course _can_. Although both
| asbestos and mesothelioma are very nasty, I fail to see
| evidence for your claim that _your faith is sealed_.
| shawnz wrote:
| https://thorax.bmj.com/content/58/9/809#xref-ref-7-1
|
| > Necroscopic studies have led to the determination of
| asbestos fibre load and the demonstration of a dose related
| effect, thus making improbable the argument that
| mesothelioma only requires one fibre of asbestos for
| initiation of the malignancy.
|
| Furthermore, asbestos exposure in urban settings is very
| common:
| https://www.atsjournals.org/doi/10.1164/arrd.1980.122.5.669
|
| > We isolated uncoated asbestos fibers from the lungs of 21
| urban dwellers who had fewer than 100 asbestos bodies/gram
| of lung, a level shown previously to be associated with
| environmental rather than occupational exposure to asbestos
| dccoolgai wrote:
| Considering that Mesothelioma can take 30+ years to
| manifest, that info about exposure being common does
| _not_ improve my day.
|
| The truth is, it's hard to unravel: especially with 100s
| of billions of dollars on the line in liability, there is
| probably some "sugar science" going on - maybe on both
| sides even.
|
| What I _do_ know is that: 1. It's harmful af (regardless
| of "how much" the research says, the fact is: harmful
| af). 2. Everyone thinks it's banned, but it's not. 3.
| Some people make billions of dollars continuing to use it
| (enabled by #2) 4. I'm not in the set of people described
| in #3
|
| I'd like it to be banned.
| shawnz wrote:
| I certainly agree with all that. It should be banned.
| Phurist wrote:
| AFAIK inhaling in some fibers usually shows an effect after
| around 20 years. If you breathed in a lot of them (working with
| asbestos without protection for a long period), then you will
| most probably start experiencing some breathing problems first
| of all. Absestosis I think is the correct term ?
|
| Actual cancer would depend on a lot of different additional
| factors.
| dccoolgai wrote:
| Mesothelioma is a particularly nasty form of lung cancer.
| Asbestosis is dose-related, but mesothelioma is not. Details:
| https://www.health.state.mn.us/communities/environment/asbes.
| ..
| ornornor wrote:
| The town of asbestos in Quebec (which they renamed last year
| because it was too shameful) had one of the largest (the
| largest?) asbestos mine in the world. It closed in 2011 with
| plans from the government to inject close to 60 million $ to
| reopen it... it didn't go through because the party that
| promised it lost the elections to the party that promised NOT
| to do it, but note that the question of whether anyone would
| still buy asbestos never entered into consideration. So yeah
| all this asbestos must be going somewhere if it's still
| profitable to mine.
| mschuster91 wrote:
| > Don't forget asbestos, which despite all the hubbub never got
| banned.
|
| I was a bit astonished by that claim since I had thought that
| the entire developed world has banned asbestos usage for
| _decades_... turns out that while the US does have bans on
| certain products, there is no federal ban on the stuff (https:/
| /en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asbestos_and_the_law_(United_S...).
|
| Jesus. WTF?
| colechristensen wrote:
| Asbestos is an almost magical material and if handled
| carefully (say similar levels that medical workers have to
| take for covid, surgeries, microbiology, etc) there isn't
| much risk. It shouldn't be in common construction or
| household materials but i'm not too worried about specialized
| industrial applications.
| nate_meurer wrote:
| No, there is nothing magical about asbestos. There is no
| application for it that can't be performed just as well by
| safer synthetic mineral fibers.
|
| The only thing special about asbestos is its extremely low
| cost.
| nicolas_t wrote:
| In a similar vein, Japan only stopped using Asbestos in
| construction materials in 2005. So anyone buying an old house
| in Japan is pretty much guaranteed to have Asbestos...
| ComputerGuru wrote:
| Good luck finding an old house in Japan!
| nicolas_t wrote:
| I mean old by the definition of Japan. As in > 30 years
| old :)
| agumonkey wrote:
| stupid warning for the vintage crowd, lots of device had
| asbestos in the materials (among other toxic substances now
| banned), be careful
| gadf wrote:
| Could microplastics, aerosolized in seawater be playing a role in
| this? I saw something that most of the non-smoking related lung
| cancers are in coastal regions
| tr14 wrote:
| My great grand mother died from lung cancer and never smoked one
| cigarette in her life. She was a humble and very sober woman. (no
| alcohol, no tobacco or drugs, just her medication). The reason,
| why she died of lung cancer is, that the area, where she grow up,
| was near coal mine & chemistry plant. LVL 89 tho, nice age
| anyways. RIP Grandma. On the other hand, my neighbor from the
| rural area, where my mother was born & raised, lived all the way
| up to LVL 93. He had one shot of hard liquor every day and smoked
| exactly 3 cigarettes a day. His calm live and routines granted
| him a superior lifespan. He died from age, calmly in the bed,
| with relative good health for his level.
| secondcoming wrote:
| LVL?
| meepmorp wrote:
| Level. Like in a video game. Don't you think of the lifespans
| of your friends in family and terms of video game levels?
| theandrewbailey wrote:
| No. Leveling up implies some sort of growth or improvement.
| We all know people where one year older doesn't mean they
| leveled up.
| username90 wrote:
| Level in games doesn't necessarily correlate with skill.
| People can build their character badly and end up with
| subpar skills for their level.
| lloeki wrote:
| People are still figuring the rules for the game as it
| came without any manual:
|
| https://www.reddit.com/r/outside
| dmichulke wrote:
| In a way life is about maxing skills and avoiding perma-
| death.
| tr14 wrote:
| thanks, you feel me.
| dmichulke wrote:
| No offense intended, I just felt your motor memory wrote
| LVL but you meant age. I apologize.
| tr14 wrote:
| None taken.
| wiz21c wrote:
| Well, I tried to ascend one or two times, but never did it
| :-)
| [deleted]
| eplanit wrote:
| Me too... some mysterious synonym for "years"?
| aflag wrote:
| I think it means level. I assume the reason to say that is
| that having a higher level in a video game is considered
| good, whereas it is common for people to discriminate
| against people of more age.
| techrat wrote:
| > His calm live and routines granted him a superior lifespan.
|
| My mean, spiteful and horrendous grandmother in law was nothing
| but pure bile and hatred. Every day she lived her life in
| perpetual outrage and never had a moment's peace.
|
| She lived to 96.
| PedroBatista wrote:
| She probably outsourced the hate and outrage to those around
| her, inwards she was 100% peace.
| alejohausner wrote:
| This is known as _projective identification_.
| monopoledance wrote:
| Those people may actually be able to offload stress, anxiety
| and worries...
|
| I fear most evil folks sleep well at night.
| reddit_clone wrote:
| That's my theory too. Mean people cause stress to others
| and send them to early graves. They themselves live free of
| illness causing stresses.
|
| Karma is something people invented for some temporary
| solace.
| cm2012 wrote:
| Yep. My wife's grandma is probably the most evil human being
| I've ever met in person, and she's very healthy now at 88.
| vcxy wrote:
| I grew up in WV. I have many friends from near the DuPont
| plant. We like to joke about how we grew up drinking dupont
| water...kind of morbid though since it's pretty true.
| xroche wrote:
| > was near coal mine
|
| In Europe, coal typically kills more than 20,000 people _every
| year_:
| https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2013/jun/12/european...
|
| [ And yet Germany and Belgium decided to end nuclear energy
| because people are afraid of the "risks", but keep coal plants.
| ]
| hkt wrote:
| Germany and Belgium have cultural hangups about nuclear that
| relate to the fact most Germans (and probably also Belgians)
| felt they'd be the first to die if there was a nuclear war.
| Not that this excuses them from being reasonable, of course,
| but it is worth keeping in mind just how occupied by the
| threat of nuclear annihilation many people in those countries
| were, and for how long.
| Robotbeat wrote:
| I'm a fan of nuclear, and I suspect you're right. The
| reasons people say they oppose even existing nuclear (cost,
| waste, safety) don't usually pass scrutiny. I suspect it is
| primarily due to their association with nuclear weapons. It
| instills a pretty deep fear, which I don't entirely blame
| them for. ...however it has pretty terrible health,
| environmental, and economic consequences to prioritize
| nuclear phase out over fossil fuels (especially coal).
| hanniabu wrote:
| The reason I'm against nuclear power is the human greed
| factor. See my past comment for more details and sources:
|
| https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26348520
| da_big_ghey wrote:
| we are having way to ensure beter compliance. may be we
| need for to make nuclear executive responsible with jail
| time if requirements broken. certainly nuclear safety has
| more importance than sox compliance.
| Robotbeat wrote:
| I find none of this convincing. Industrial accidents
| happen with all thermal power plant types. And coal ash
| disposal has a _worse_ track record than nuclear waste.
| (Coal ash being naturally radioactive!) And the aerosols
| produced from coal transport and burning are a continual
| problem of lung cancer.
|
| Nuclear is remarkably well-regulated by comparison. I
| understand why people may want to get rid of it
| eventually, but compared to coal, it's sunshine and
| rainbows.
| bildung wrote:
| At least for Germany this isn't true, both nuclear and coal
| are phased out with about the same end date.
| Robotbeat wrote:
| Why would you not prioritize ending coal first??
| bildung wrote:
| Because Fukushima provided a once-in-a-lifetime
| opportunity for politicians to go against the local
| energy giants without them being able to gain the upper
| hand in the inevitable fight about the narrative in the
| local media. This is all power politics.
| 00jimbo wrote:
| it doesn't work quite like that, though; while nuclear is
| down to ~13%, a quarter of the german energy sector is
| still burning coal. in fact, the plan to shut down fossil
| fuels was hindered by (imo) the short-sighted view to
| curtail nuclear before it was necessary.
| bildung wrote:
| Coal is down from 45% in 2013 to 23% in 2020.
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Energy_in_Germany
|
| During the same time, nuclear is down from 17% to 13%.
| https://energy-
| charts.info/charts/energy_pie/chart.htm?l=en&...
|
| Still too little too late in my opinion, but one has a
| hard time arguing that nuclear plays a role here at all.
| 00jimbo wrote:
| the point i was making was less that this speedup of
| nuclear draw down was problematic so much as the whole
| viewpoint that ending advancement of nuclear power as a
| whole. germany limiting the lifespan and new construction
| of nuclear power dates back to the early 2000s, fukushima
| just reset the timelines back to the original 2022
| closing dates.
| collyw wrote:
| I find it quite amusing that Germany seems to be very anti-
| nuclear as a culture, yet they are right next door to
| France which has plenty of Nuclear power plants.
| fileeditview wrote:
| And many Germans absolutely loathe the French reactors.
| Especially because France loved to place many of them
| directly at the border to Germany. There were several
| news pieces over the past century where the condition of
| some of those reactors was questioned.
| est31 wrote:
| FTR Fessenheim has been shut down in 2020. As for
| Cattenom, it's still operating.
| xroche wrote:
| > condition of some of those reactors was questioned
|
| The nuclear security agency in France is one of the
| toughest in the world, and is independent. They notably
| demand "current" state-of-the art security for all
| nuclear plants (vs. state-of-the-art at the time of
| building in the US, typically)
|
| French nuclear plants typically never killed anyone (and
| will never), unlike German coal plants (which are at
| least partially responsible for the 22,000 coal-related
| premature deaths every year)
|
| Nuclear energy is a very emotionally polluted debate (no
| pun intended), but facts tend to shows that this is the
| cleanest and safest energy.
| CorrectHorseBat wrote:
| We're not keeping coal in Belgium. The last coal mine in
| Belgium closed in 1992, the last coal power plant closed in
| 2016.
| wazoox wrote:
| Yup, actually the Belgian government plans to close all
| nuclear plants real soon now, and replace them all with
| imported gas. This is beyond stupid on so many levels.
| foobarian wrote:
| Would that be Russian gas they can then use as a
| bargaining chip?
| wazoox wrote:
| Who knows. They plan to shut them off so quickly it may
| not even be possible to build the necessary gas plants
| (of course they promised to replace them "mostly" with
| solar and wind, which is a complete joke and would
| require at least a decade of building at full speed, not
| a mere couple of years).
| CaptArmchair wrote:
| > Belgium
|
| Belgium doesn't have coal plants.
|
| Belgium's nuclear plants are/were scheduled to close because
| they've surpassed their initial lifespan. An extension was
| added but that has almost been surpassed as well. These are
| plants which have been in operation for 40-50 years.
|
| Replacements aren't being build because they are "unsafe".
| They aren't being build because it's economically not viable
| to do so in a country like Belgium. Not at this moment in
| time, not in the past 20 to 30 years.
|
| Belgium's major energy operators are also largely controlled
| by French energy conglomerates such as ENGIE.
| SketchySeaBeast wrote:
| > His calm live and routines granted him a superior lifespan.
|
| That's just conjecture on your part. Some people are lucky,
| others are not, it's not always due to behavior. 3 cigarettes a
| day is also extremely low - the average is apparently 14[1]
| right now.
|
| [1] https://www.cdc.gov/media/releases/2018/p0118-smoking-
| rates-...
| zadler wrote:
| It's low but the risk of smoking one a day isn't 1/10 of
| smoking 10 a day, it's probably much higher.
|
| https://www.bmj.com/content/360/bmj.j5855
| mmcgaha wrote:
| When I was young, I figgured what would be the big deal
| smoking a few cigarettes per day. By the time I was 25 I
| realized that two packs per day was getting out of control.
|
| I don't believe there is any harmful information but the
| whole picture is that most folks cannot smoke a few per
| day. Eventually cigarettes will own most smokers.
| monopoledance wrote:
| You probably have to differentiate risk. I assume for some
| risks associated with smoking there is a linear correlation
| with exposure, where it's on/off for others, or e.g.
| following a logarithmic function.
|
| Nicotine, CO and radioactive toxicity have a long half-
| life, where primary radical damage or reactive carcinogen
| burden is dose dependent stochastics.
|
| Also people forget, you are much, much more likely to die
| from cardio-vascular damage or COPD as a consequence of
| smoking, than lung cancer.
| gwbas1c wrote:
| > 3 cigarettes a day is also extremely low
|
| The addictive nature of cigarettes makes it very hard to
| stick to 3 a day.
| mrtnmcc wrote:
| I good reminder to test your home for Radon. Check your local
| Radon maps, there are hot spots throughout the world that vary
| locally. Even if maps show low values it is worth testing.
| subpixel wrote:
| Old wood burning stoves are also quite unhealthy, and perhaps
| even dangerous. My wife won't let me use ours, which is only 20
| years old.
|
| The EPA issued new regulations such that all new stoves
| manufactured after 2020 emit far less smoke and particulate both
| indoors and out.
|
| The American Lung Association actually runs programs that will
| pay you to replace your old wood stove, which probably says
| something about their potential impact on health.
| Izikiel43 wrote:
| What about barbecues?
| subpixel wrote:
| All sorts of fires contribute to air pollution and barbecues
| are not an exception.
|
| The compounding factor with woodstoves is that they are
| indoors and they are often the primary source of heat for
| months on end, meaning they they emit smoke and particulates
| into the air you breathe all day and all night.
| ghjnut wrote:
| This is me. I'm 34 years old and was diagnosed with stage 3B non-
| small cell lunge cancer in February- a 3cm adenocarcinoma in my
| right lung as well as metastases in some lymph nodes. When they
| tested me they found my cancer to have an ALK+ biomarker which is
| frequently found in young, non-smokers. Luck of the draw I guess.
| pazimzadeh wrote:
| I'm sorry to hear that. You might want to look into high dose
| IV Vitamin C injections for solid tumors (which have the
| oppposite effect of oral Vitamin C).
|
| High-dose vitamin C enhances cancer immunotherapy
| https://stm.sciencemag.org/content/12/532/eaay8707
|
| Scroll down to cancer treatment:
| https://ods.od.nih.gov/factsheets/VitaminC-HealthProfessiona...
| voldacar wrote:
| I was about to downvote but that first study actually looks
| legit. Still a mouse model, but maybe worth looking into
| further.
| pazimzadeh wrote:
| My understanding is that Linus Pauling and others had
| incredibly promising human trials, but attempts to
| replicate always seem to alter one 'minor' detail or
| another like adding glutathione (an anti-oxidant) or giving
| high dose vitamin C orally instead of intravenously. This
| is before they knew that Vitamin C is pro-oxidant when
| deliver at high dose in the blood. You want anti-oxidants
| to prevent cancer but once you have cancer you want
| oxidants. Like you want bullets.
|
| What the mouse model suggests is that you need an immune
| system in the first place to get the benefits of high dose
| IV vitamin C (HDIVC), since the mice lacking an adaptive
| immune system didn't get the effect. It's unclear how
| exposure to different amounts of chemo, which messes with
| the immune system, disrupts the effectiveness of HDIVC. i.e
| should it be tried first, or in what combination?
| ghjnut wrote:
| Definitely not the craziest think I've heard (vitamin B17
| is). I'll check it out.
| azalemeth wrote:
| I'm very sorry to hear that. It is my understanding that there
| are several ALK tyrosine kinase inhibitors that have specific
| approval for use in your condition (crizotinib, ceritinib,
| alectinib, and brigatinib) and I do hope you get the best care
| you can possibly get and fight the good fight.
| ghjnut wrote:
| That is correct. Unfortunately the TKIs are more for
| slowing/stopping spread temporarily until the cancer no
| longer responds - then on to the next one. My doctors were
| going for curative so I've been going the more traditional
| route and those will likely be tagged on post-surgery in an
| effort to keep anything missed in check. Also ALK+ is non-
| responsive to immunotherapy which would have been nice weapon
| to have in the arsenal as a cleanup crew.
|
| It may be a pipe dream, but I'm hoping to hold on long enough
| that some of these new mRNA approaches start offering
| clinical trials I might be able jump in on.
| azalemeth wrote:
| I am very glad to hear that you are getting neoadjuvant
| chemotherapy. I really do hope the resection is complete,
| and the chemotherapy works.
|
| Regarding "holding on long enough" -- something that there
| has been shoddy but interesting evidence for over a number
| of years in dragging yourself further to the right of a
| Kaplan-Meier plot is dietary modification. As you probably
| know, one of the hallmarks of cancer is metabolic
| dysregulation [1] -- specifically a shift towards
| "anaerobic" glycolysis, that is, the increased uptake of
| glucose and an increase in the proportion of which ends up
| as its ultimate metabolic fate as lactate rather than
| entering the TCA cycle as pyruvate and being oxidised. Some
| thing that has been explored in the past is providing the
| organism with ketones as a primary fuel source (which enter
| the TCA cycle directly as either beta-hydroxybutyrate or
| acetoacetate) and do not get transported through the glut
| glucose transporters: in non-cancerous cells with some
| degree metabolic flexibility there is significant scope for
| generating other needed metabolites from the TCA cycle and
| a series of beautiful pathways to let that process happen.
| As a result, there are a series of papers that indicate
| that a purely ketone-based diet (exogeneous or endogenous)
| _may_ be associated with an increase in life expectancy [2,
| 3, 4; or google scholar GS1] as -- the narrative goes --
| cancer cells can 't utilise the alternative fuel source as
| effectively. In mice, with a well controlled tumour
| xenograft, this has shown to extend survival, fairly
| significantly.
|
| However, take this with a large grain of salt: there is
| some evidence that ketone utilisation might be associated
| with "stemmness" and baddness in general [5, 6] which (and
| herein starts a "I am hypothesising" warning) may be due to
| a selection pressure for metabolic flexibility and the
| return to a more fetal phenotype. The diets are also very
| difficult to adhere to in patients. These diets are just
| starting to be assessed properly, in people, in RCTs (e.g.
| [7]), but I can't find any evidence of a trial in lung
| cancer patients without a background of smoking
| specifically.
|
| The most recent major review on the topic I can easily find
| [8] does seem to hint quite strongly that it might be worth
| considering, and there is some evidence that it potentiates
| tumours to other chemotherapies. If I were in your
| unfortunate position, I would personally discuss the
| concept with the oncologist in charge of my care - the
| basic idea "makes sense" to me, at least.
|
| ---- [1] https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/
| S009286741... or https://sci-
| hub.st/https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/art...
|
| [2]
| https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/abs/10.1002/ijc.28809
| or https://sci-
| hub.st/https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/pdfdi...
|
| [3] https://nutritionandmetabolism.biomedcentral.com/articl
| es/10... or https://sci-hub.st/10.1186/1743-7075-4-5
|
| [GS1] https://scholar.google.co.uk/scholar?hl=da&as_sdt=0%2
| C5&q=ke...
|
| [4]
| https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s12032-017-0930-5
| or https://sci-
| hub.st/https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007...
|
| [5]
| https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.4161/cc.10.8.15330
| or https://sci-hub.st/10.4161/cc.10.8.15330
|
| [6]
| https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.4161/cc.9.17.12731
| or https://sci-hub.st/10.4161/cc.9.17.12731
|
| [7] https://www.mdpi.com/2072-6643/10/9/1187
|
| [8] https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S2212
| 87781...
| ghjnut wrote:
| I have been turned off by how the approach is to treat me
| and I'm primarily a passenger for this ride. In response,
| I did the same research you did and came across the same
| stuff. During the chemo/radiation I was on a strict
| ketogenic diet with a less strict intermittent fasting
| schedule. Post-surgery I'm going to go the full 9 yards
| and extend to 7-day fasting once a month after hearing
| this anecdotal story:
|
| https://www.saronarameka.com/ https://www.frontiersin.org
| /articles/10.3389/fonc.2020.00578...
| imoverclocked wrote:
| If you are looking for recipes or a second opinion
| relating to food, my girlfriend (who used to work as an
| neuro-immunologist doing cancer research) now does keto
| coaching and also has a ton of recipes online.
|
| https://primalwellness.coach
| ghjnut wrote:
| Thank you. This is exactly the stuff I'm looking for as a
| newbie to keto.
| magicalhippo wrote:
| If you haven't, ask your doctors where it might to spread
| to, and carefully monitor changes in those areas.
|
| I have experienced three cases in my close relationships
| where spreading was not picked up for a long time due to
| being in different body parts.
|
| In one of the cases asthma medication and physiotherapy was
| prescribed for a year before an unrelated shoulder x-ray
| caught the attention of the radiologist, and further images
| showed the cancer had spread to lungs and spine...
| ghjnut wrote:
| I hadn't considered that. Thank you, I'll bounce that off
| them.
| agumonkey wrote:
| > It may be a pipe dream, but I'm hoping to hold on long
| enough that some of these new mRNA approaches start
| offering clinical trials I might be able jump in on.
|
| According to Vince DeVita (ex head of NCI) it was the way
| they did things in the early days. Make people survive
| until something new came up.
|
| Hopefully with the advances in medical research things will
| accelerate.
|
| Best wishes
| ArkanExplorer wrote:
| What level of air pollution exposure do you have? Have you
| monitored your indoor air quality with a PM2.5 device, or used
| an air purifier? Do you live near a busy road, or a coal plant?
|
| Good luck for your treatment and recovery.
| ghjnut wrote:
| I live in Denver. I have not done any testing but moved into
| this house June 2019. Our inspection found the radon levels
| to be 3.9 pCi/L (4.0 is the recommended actionable cut-off).
| I recently installed a radon abatement system as we're
| refinishing the basement. Wish I knew for sure.
| rootbear wrote:
| My sister (age 67) was diagnosed with exactly this a year ago,
| except she's stage 4. She's on Alecensa (alectinib) and is
| doing well, all things considered. Her left lung doesn't work
| very well, but she's dealing with it. Her cancer isn't
| localized, so surgery isn't an option. She did have radiation
| therapy on one tumor.
|
| Alecensa is freaking expensive. Even with Medicare, it's
| costing her about $10,000 a year in deductibles and copays.
|
| I wish you all the best for your treatments.
| ghjnut wrote:
| That's actually better than I heard. Since ALK is more
| generally rare biomarker (as opposed to EGFR) more of the
| drugs are still in trial. I asked an oncologist friend about
| costs and she said $11,000/month.
| rootbear wrote:
| The raw cost of Alecensa is around $18,000/month, if I
| recall correctly. Medicare covers all but $800 of that,
| once the copays are spent.
| cschneid wrote:
| That's the cancer my dad has - non-smoker, just a surprise
| stage 4. He's had great success with a few different inhibitors
| over the years.
|
| His doctor's approach has been using them to reduce the cancer
| to near-zero, and then radiation (and in future, chemo) to
| knock down any stray masses that get a foothold.
| tomcam wrote:
| Holy shit, my best to you.
| EForEndeavour wrote:
| Sorry to hear. I don't know much about cancer, but that sounds
| scary to say the least.
|
| What was your pathway to diagnosis? Was it picked up in a
| routine checkup, or did you feel symptoms that convinced you to
| see a doctor?
| ghjnut wrote:
| I had a dry cough for about 3 months that only seemed to crop
| up in the evenings. I didn't think much about it as I have
| quite a few allergies and chalked it up to that. I decided to
| visit the doctor when I started getting some chest tightness
| when I was going to sleep and I was also getting what I can
| only describe as hot flashes just as I was falling asleep. It
| felt like just as I was about to fall asleep I'd get an
| adrenaline shot and I'd spring back up wide awake.
|
| My PCP did a clean EKG which showed nothing, then it showed
| up on X-Rays. I immediately got PET scans which showed 2
| masses. I then had a bronchoscopy to ensure it was malignant
| where they noticed additional lymph nodes. I then had a
| mediastinoscopy showing spread in 3 clusters of chest lymph
| nodes. I went through 6 weeks of chemo and radiation that
| resulted in a 25% reduction in the primary tumor and no
| change in the metastases in a hilar lymph node. I'm now
| scheduled for a bi-lobectomty to remove my superior and
| middle lobe on the right side, as well as however many lymph
| nodes they can get a hold of (check out "da vinci thoracic
| surgery" to see the robot beast the surgeon will be using).
|
| I have almost no symptoms outside of a slight cough and still
| run 1-2 miles per day.
|
| I've generally been a grin-and-bear-it guy when it comes to
| my health. Please suck up your pride and stay on top of your
| health.
| quenix wrote:
| The "adrenaline shot" you describe -may- be normal. It's
| called a [hypnic
| jerk](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hypnic_jerk).
| ghjnut wrote:
| That sounds a lot like it. Maybe the cancer triggered it
| or maybe I just lucked out with an unrelated symptom
| prompting me to visit a doctor.
| rockyj wrote:
| I was diagnosed with "Thymus Carcinoma", pretty similar
| story as yours. Had chemo, surgery and radiation. Doctors
| also did "hot chemo" during the surgery. With the grace of
| Jesus I am alive today.
|
| It was a tough few months, but because of my trying times I
| think I got stronger in my faith and I would say it was
| worth it. It's a good feeling to live life knowing that God
| is by you, makes one more empathetic and puts value back on
| the important things like family.
|
| Everyone has their own journey, I just want to encourage
| you :)
| EForEndeavour wrote:
| Thank you for sharing this extremely detailed experience. I
| could definitely see your comment helping to save some
| stranger's life when they google something like "adrenaline
| shot before sleep chest tightness."
|
| Best of luck with your impending encounter with the da
| Vinci bot and life after cancer.
| usgroup wrote:
| You're an awesome human. I'm in awe of your composure and
| wish I could do the same if it ever happened to me.
| moooo99 wrote:
| Thank you for sharing your story, that pathway sounds scary
| to say the least. I am absolutely impressed how well you
| seem to take it.
|
| I which you the best of luck and a long life after your
| encounter with that incredibly scary yet fascinating robot!
| agumonkey wrote:
| before I can find a nicer source, here are some geographical maps
| of lung cancer
|
| https://duckduckgo.com/?t=lm&q=map+of+lung+cancer&iax=images...
|
| helps getting an idea of environmental impact
| kozikow wrote:
| My mother was recently diagnosed with stage 4 lung cancer. Never
| smoked, no alcohol. For 3 months doctors were diagnosing her
| coughing as probably covid related, even when tests came
| negative. Probably a lot more people got late cancer diagnosis
| due to Covid. And lung cancer deaths are at 150K vs 577K for
| Covid.
|
| As article says, genetic mutations are much more common among
| non-smokers. Exon 19 deletion egfr mutation was detected, so she
| started on Osimertinib that works very well. Sadly Osimertinib
| will work for a year or two, and then cancer mutates and gains
| resistance.
| izend wrote:
| What about Radon exposure? Big problem in Canada in certain
| cities:
|
| "Over 16% of lung cancer deaths are attributed to radon
| exposure in Canada. It is estimated that more than 21,000
| Canadians will die from lung cancer this year, and more than
| 3,000 of those deaths are because of exposure to radon
| indoors."
| ufo wrote:
| Just to add a clarification for the rest of HN, since this is a
| common source of confusion... Every cancer has gene mutations.
| Typically these mutations are only present in the cancer cells
| and are not there from birth. They don't indicate a hereditary
| predisposition to getting cancer.
|
| Really sorry to hear what your family is going through. This
| kind of stuff is never easy to deal with.
| diob wrote:
| I grew up in a household where they chain smoked inside. Pretty
| much just waiting to get cancer at some point.
| bengale wrote:
| My friends grandfather died from a lung cancer he got from years
| of soldering before they introduced the lead free stuff.
| bijant wrote:
| lead is terribly toxic stuff, but the lung cancer would most
| likely be caused by the flux, which you will still find in lead
| free solder. Which is why You should always ensure good
| ventilation when soldering.
| fortran77 wrote:
| And I suspect these unfortunate individuals are treated with
| suspicion / lack of respect from the medical and insurance
| industries.
| AtlasBarfed wrote:
| I fervently hope mass adoption of EVs will lead to a marked
| decrease in cancer, and not just lung. Who knows what oil,
| antifreeze, additives, and all the chemicals used in processing
| no longer being emitted on tailpipes, dumped as part of refining
| byproducts, and the like are no longer placed into the
| environment.
| decafninja wrote:
| My uncle died of lung cancer in Korea; neither him nor anyone in
| his family smoked. If culprits were to blame, it's probably his
| coworkers - Korean men are notorious smokers even today and it
| was worse when he was of prime working age. (quick Google stats
| indicate 40% of men smoking vs. 16% in the US as of 2016, and
| it's obvious many, many men smoke if you just live their and
| peoplewatch.)
|
| His death is one reason I really hate smoking. In Manhattan it's
| especially annoying when you have to go past an honor guard of
| smokers wreathed in a carcinogenic miasma cloud of smoke when you
| enter or leave office buildings, or if you're walking in a
| tightly packed crowd and someone ahead of you decides to light
| one up and cropdust everyone behind with a blessing of cancerous
| smoke.
| collyw wrote:
| You don't think that diesel fumes are a more likely culprit?
|
| I saw this study mentioned which showed negligible risk for
| passive smoking unless you are actually living with a smoker.
| https://www.forbes.com/sites/danielfisher/2013/12/12/study-f...
| decafninja wrote:
| Korean corporate culture is extremely workaholic - even today
| but especially during his working years (1970s to early
| 2000s) - he probably spent more time with his coworkers than
| his family.
|
| Also people likely smoked indoors in the office when he was
| working. Indoor no smoking bans didn't come until later in
| his career, and even today I think enforcement is much more
| lax compared to the US.
| ornornor wrote:
| > he probably spent more time with his coworkers than his
| family.
|
| This is so sad. Unless he didn't like his family.
| Clubber wrote:
| From the article he linked.
|
| _The study found no statistically significant relationship
| between lung cancer and exposure to passive smoke, however.
| Only among women who had lived with a smoker for 30 years
| or more was there a relationship that the researchers
| described as "borderline statistical significance." Over at
| the Velvet Glove, Iron Fist blog, however, journalist
| Christopher Snowden notes "there's no such thing as
| borderline statistical significance. It's either
| significant or it's not," and the reported hazard ratio was
| not._
| refurb wrote:
| The article is interesting for what it doesn't call out. There
| are people that get lung cancer without a cause - just an unlucky
| lottery of errors introduced through natural processes.
|
| If I recall correctly, 1/3 to 1/2 of all cancers don't have a
| cause. Just bad luck.
| ComputerGuru wrote:
| Don't have a cause or don't have a known cause? There's a big
| difference between random mutation and unknown precipitator.
| pessimizer wrote:
| It's not the cancer caused by moral failure, it's the good
| kind which is caused by God's plan.
|
| https://www.dailymotion.com/video/xc3x84
| hh3k0 wrote:
| > There are people that get lung cancer without a cause
|
| I'd be quite surprised if breathing in microplastics does not
| contribute to the risk of lung cancer -- and essentially every
| human being is exposed.
| freddealmeida wrote:
| my dad died from lung cancer. He smoked his whole life. His MRI's
| looked pretty good. So this is interesting. Makes sense. Poison,
| radiation.
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