[HN Gopher] The loneliness of the modern office team member
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The loneliness of the modern office team member
Author : 0-_-0
Score : 65 points
Date : 2021-05-02 11:09 UTC (1 days ago)
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| wccrawford wrote:
| I'm quite an introvert.
|
| What I've found is that I tend to try to friends with my co-
| workers because I'm around them constantly. And I _don 't_ try to
| make friends anywhere else.
|
| Lately, I've been realizing that even though my coworkers like
| me, and I like them, they are _not_ really my friends. Nobody who
| leaves the company stays in touch with me. I almost never have
| contact with them away from work.
|
| I share my hobby stuff with them during work hours, and they seem
| to enjoy hearing about it and engage with me, but none of them
| would actually want to join me in those hobbies away from work.
|
| This has me thinking that I should spend less time trying to
| engage with them, and more time trying to find local groups that
| share those hobbies.
|
| So, contrary to the article, I don't think "the loneliness of the
| modern office team member" is actually a problem. I think it's a
| big hint that they need to seek relationships outside of work
| instead.
| decafninja wrote:
| I've worked at 4 companies in my career. I've made good
| personal friends at the first and current. I have close to zero
| contact with anyone from the second and third.
|
| If I had to attribute what the difference was:
|
| First company: Almost everyone was within a 10 year age
| difference of each other, and even those few that were older
| were still "young at heart", for lack of a better term.
| Everyone enjoyed each other's company and would frequently meet
| up after work, even go party together at bars and clubs on
| peoples' birthdays, etc.
|
| Current company: My ex-boss had a unique knack for bringing the
| team together. I don't know what specifically he did that
| contributed most, but the entire team ended up becoming
| friends. Since he left, things haven't been the same with
| newcomers into the team, while most of the oldtimers have left.
| aitkenably wrote:
| Same. I have friends from some gigs that have stayed friends
| for many years. Other jobs, I never talked with anyone again.
| Age and stage of life is factor. If your coworkers all have
| young children, birthday clubbing isn't really on their
| agenda.
|
| Without out-of-work activities & bounding, friendly coworkers
| don't transition into friends. I'd suspect remote work makes
| it very difficult to form a permanent friendship with a
| colleague.
| decafninja wrote:
| Definitely agree age and stage of life is a factor. Which
| makes me more surprised how I've become so friendly with
| people at my current company. Our age ranges from early 20s
| to late 50s, singles, married with kids, etc. Most of us
| don't even live too close by. The only distinguishing
| factor I can think of, is as I mentioned, my ex-boss, who
| really had a knack for bringing people together.
| foo_foo_can_do wrote:
| Working in Toronto I found the same. Worse still (and in
| typical Canadian fashion), people would act as if they wanted
| to be more than work friends, but outside-work events would
| never work out for some reason. Moving to the Netherlands fixed
| the problem for me, so I think there are strong cultural forced
| at play. I've found building friendships (and knowing who is
| actually not interested in friendship) much easier, in and out
| of work. Also, in one year my professional network is far
| better than what I had in Canada after six years.
| apurtbapurt wrote:
| It's the blessing and curse of Dutch people, as a collective,
| that they really don't mind telling you what they think.
| sdevonoes wrote:
| > Lately, I've been realizing that even though my coworkers
| like me, and I like them, they are not really my friends.
| Nobody who leaves the company stays in touch with me.
|
| I thought this was the norm, not the exception. I'm not in
| touch with of my past colleagues anymore. Reasons: a) we never
| hanged out outside the office (besides, beers on Fridays from
| time to time), b) changing jobs usually means changing cities,
| and using Twitter/WhatsApp/Facebook/Email is something that I
| find useless if you want to keep in touch with people; for me
| it is in-person hang outs or no touch at all.
| metalliqaz wrote:
| Man, I totally could have written this. The big problem is that
| whole "finding local groups" thing. That just... doesn't
| happen. Maybe if I lived in a city, but not in the 'burbs. Not
| when you have a full time job and kids.
| the_only_law wrote:
| Meetup gets thrown around as cliche advice for this sort of
| things, but in the last city I lived, majority of meetups
| were either very demographic specific (i.e. something like
| 60+, or women's business) or fronts for MLM and other scams.
| koboll wrote:
| Yeah, you have to look for private clubs for the things
| you're into. Masters swimming. Archery clubs. Book clubs.
| Whatever.
|
| They're usually not on meetup, and often only on their own
| websites and/or on Facebook.
|
| I found this helpful: https://outline.com/aAmy53
| metalliqaz wrote:
| yeah I have never found anything on Meetup that interested
| me. I once went to one for "Computers and programming".
| Noped out of there real fast. I was the only professional
| and I'm not interested in helping rookies learn javascript.
| gbear0 wrote:
| this has been my biggest problem with Meetup style events
| too. I'm often looking for others with a level of
| experience or interest in a topic to match my own, only
| to find people trying to break into the industry and just
| barely scratching the surface. At that point it's not a
| social thing for me, it's a mentoring/work thing, and I
| get this feeling of disappointment in the situation,
| which persuades me to skip the next.
| j45 wrote:
| It's easy to start a meetup. I did once and other people
| who were searching for something similar popped right up
| and formed some great friendships. It's ok to be a light
| host.
| koboll wrote:
| Out of curiosity, what kind of meetup did you start? How
| did you find event space for it?
| candiddevmike wrote:
| I've also struggled making new (local) friends with kids,
| especially working from home for a non-local company. This is
| one of the main reasons I go work at coffee shops--the slim
| chance I run into someone in the same situation as me. It
| seems my wife can easily find a ton of mom's groups or
| women's clubs, for men, not so much.
| metalliqaz wrote:
| My wife and the other moms in her mom group keep saying
| that they want the husbands to get together and do
| something. They just don't understand. We have nothing in
| common, and the shared experience of having kids is not
| even close to enough.
| wussboy wrote:
| I hear this too. But I think that making friends is about
| diversifing your interests and theirs as well. Humans in
| frequent contact with each other tends to move towards
| alignment.
| metalliqaz wrote:
| yeah but you have to have something. A liberal computer
| nerd and a firefighter steeped in macho culture are just
| not gonna work.
| gtfoutttt wrote:
| Do they both like tri-tip and beer? Boom. Bbq time.
| apelapan wrote:
| For me it's been the opposite. Being stuck in a suburb with
| small children, I've connected properly with more people
| than ever before in adult life. I wasn't actively searching
| or joining any groups, I just headed out with the stroller
| a couple of times per day during six (first child) plus ten
| (second child) months.
|
| I think most people find it simultaneously wonderful and
| extremely boring to be at home with kids for extended
| periods, so quite a few seize any chance of having a
| conversation with another adult. The playgrounds are full
| of bored parents, and everyone has one or more tiny, human
| conversation starters.
|
| Kindergarten is pretty good as well for meeting people.
| When a three year old is invited to birthday party, they
| kind of have to have a parent along for the event.
|
| Somewhat specific to my locality (Sweden), there is 15
| hours per week of free kindergarten for kids with stay-at-
| home parents. In my city there are specific drop-off and
| pickup times for those children, which means that six times
| per week you meet relaxed and slightly bored other parents,
| who have kids in the same group as you. This essentially
| always means that you hang around the yard for a bit and
| socialize.
| tharkun__ wrote:
| Socialize yes. But so far it's only been because of the
| kids and because it's awkward to just stand around and
| not talk to each other. Never found anyone I'd really
| wanna hang out with. YMMV obviously.
| apurtbapurt wrote:
| It's hard to jump straight to friend-level, without first
| socializing and making acquaintances.
| metalliqaz wrote:
| follow up:
|
| And you know what the crazy thing is? I just don't care about
| stuff like sports, but I'd happily go to a game if I liked
| the people I was with, for the the chance to hang out. But
| omg I just don't care about so many of the things that seem
| to bring people together.
|
| That's the curse of the mild introvert, I guess.
| wussboy wrote:
| Kids make it tough, for sure. I can't plan time for get
| togethers because I have to take kids to activities every
| evening. They're well socialized and I'm a hermit. But I'm
| starting to push back against the parenting industrial
| complex. My kids will survive if I have friends or if I'm not
| there at all their games. I have social needs too.
| gottebp wrote:
| Aristotle explored this long ago, mapping out levels of
| friendship:
|
| 1) Friendship of Utility: Affection is based on usefulness, and
| if usefulness fades so does the relationship.
|
| 2) Friendship of Pleasure: Affection is based on pleasant
| enjoyment of the other, often in shared circumstance such as
| sport or hobby. When the enjoyment changes or circumstance
| ends, so does the relationship.
|
| 3) Friendships of Goodness: "Now those who wish well to their
| friends for their sake are most truly friends; for they do this
| by reason of own nature and not incidentally; therefore their
| friendship lasts as long as they are good- and goodness is an
| enduring thing."
|
| #1 and #2 are common, #3 is rare.
| swader999 wrote:
| Most work colleagues fall into number one. Some software
| projects are so demanding that you really get to see the true
| character of a person and how they react when they are
| tested. Sometimes number three happens.
| agumonkey wrote:
| my experience is.. our lives are complicated and we should
| trust ourselves more and not try to optimize
|
| a lot of us are lonely and it makes everything sensitive, maybe
| your colleagues don't stay in touch because they think you
| didn't stay in touch
|
| it's subtle and fragile and I think we should find more
| strength within ourselves
| mylons wrote:
| this was my entire experience in San Francisco with almost
| everyone I met. i'm not that introverted, people seemed to like
| me and hang out with me at work. Once they or I left, I
| essentially never heard from any of them again.
|
| I noticed this in other people too. Their entire social circles
| revolved around work. People had weddings that essentially only
| co workers went to.
|
| Those years were the loneliest of my life.
| LeonM wrote:
| > Those years were the loneliest of my life.
|
| What did you change to turn this around?
| mylons wrote:
| Thanks for asking. I started therapy, and left. I moved to
| Tahoe in 2019, where I had actually made a few friends due
| to skiing ~40 days a year or so while in SF. I ran into
| some friendly people at an Alpine Meadows pass holder party
| awhile ago, struck up a conversation over a Blackhawks
| jersey and life in Chicago. Something that might happen in
| SF all the time, but would rarely if ever lead to a
| relationship.
|
| The hardest thing for me, still, is I'm working at a
| company that has a similar vibe to an SF tech company with
| a lot of people moving here or our other office for the
| job. That sets up the transactional/ephemeral relationships
| from work. It's very hard for me to distance myself from
| getting self worth out of my work and relationships at
| work, but I must do that. The "I must do that," is an
| insight from therapy.
| tachyonbeam wrote:
| This is also a silicon valley problem. Lots of people move
| there to get the big job and make money. It attracts a
| certain kind of people. People who prioritize their career
| and income above other things. You also have the challenge
| that a lot of the people moving to SF might only stay a few
| years, so you have lot of turnaround. People are not focused
| on building long-term friendships and relationships because
| know that they or others might leave. You also see this on
| the dating scene. I found silicon valley to be an unhealthy
| living environment on multiple levels.
| hellisothers wrote:
| Argh this is my problem at my current company except I'm not
| even particularly introverted. I made lifelong friends at my
| previous small company but after four years at my current "top
| tier" company I got nothing, maybe one strong lead... in
| another state. We're likable people and make friends quickly
| but nobody has time for a deeper connection, nobody wants to
| spend evenings or weekends doing bonding'y stuff (and I'm not
| into sports).
|
| Like others here I tried finding local friends through groups,
| other dads, school events, etc but get nowhere. I'm honestly
| considering either switching back to a small cultish company or
| moving to a smaller town both of which have their own problems
| but... guess I could try softball
|
| It doesn't exactly make me happy others have this same problem
| but I'm glad I'm not alone.
| mojuba wrote:
| It's an interesting cultural problem. Whether it changes more
| with time or from country to country is not clear to me and
| would be interesting to do research around.
|
| For example, I grew up in the USSR and I saw how my parents'
| colleagues were practically all very close friends. Both my
| parents worked in academia. Someone's birthday was usually a
| big noisy gathering of the whole department of the research
| institute where they worked, plus some more friends from
| previous organizations and of course some classmates. Yes, at
| times it was that insane!
|
| Looking back now I realize what has been lost. Why though - I
| have no idea.
| serjester wrote:
| Anecdotally my mom who worked in a soviet hospital still
| keeps in touch with her coworkers - multiple decades after
| emigrating. Meanwhile I (usually) stop making an effort to
| keep in touch the second someone leaves the company.
|
| I think there's two parts to this - the Russian attitude of
| maintaining a few, deep close friends and everyone by and
| large staying in the same city their entire lives.
| mojuba wrote:
| I don't think it's specifically Russian (as I am not
| Russian, for example) but rather it was a Soviet thing.
| Your sibling comment explains it pretty well.
| MeinBlutIstBlau wrote:
| Cell phones and social media. To learn about people you just
| look it up. You don't interact with them anymore. You text or
| snoop. It sucks but not like the past was all that better
| either.
| minikites wrote:
| It's the purposeful destruction of job security which is used
| as a threat to make employees work harder. Why make friends
| with your co-workers if you or them could be fired at any
| point when the shareholders decide to "cut the fat" for
| higher profits?
|
| https://www.bls.gov/news.release/tenure.nr0.htm
|
| >The median number of years that wage and salary workers had
| been with their current employer was 4.1 years in January
| 2020
|
| It's difficult to make friends in this environment and this
| is a relatively recent change:
| https://www.bls.gov/opub/mlr/1984/10/art2full.pdf
| mojuba wrote:
| It's even shorter in the software industry. I think it was
| 2-2.5 years or close. Ordinary engineers switch jobs often
| as the only way to bump up their salaries.
| jazzyk wrote:
| As sibling comments are pointing out - the jobs are not for
| life anymore (and the tenure is getting shorter).
|
| But there are 3 other aspects, specific to your
| location/economic system, which do not apply (and mostly
| never applied) in the US/West:
|
| - people did not move around the country for jobs like they
| do in the US
|
| - salaries in Eastern Europe/USSR were public and the same
| for the same position/responsibility.
|
| - bosses' salaries were perhaps 30% higher (certainly not
| 300+% higher, so everyone was in the same socio-economic
| class, facilitating camaraderie
| mojuba wrote:
| Very true. So basically things that are good for the
| economy - labour mobility, flexibility in salaries, etc -
| are not good for friendship building. It's either or.
| PeterSmit wrote:
| Non-paywall link?
| fungiblecog wrote:
| In my experience the office is a lonely place because it is
| completely fake. Everyone has to pretend to care, pretend they're
| making awesome progress and pretend they don't hate management.
| I'm a contractor precisely because it allows me to move around
| and avoid becoming entrenched in the fakery.
| antattack wrote:
| The biggest reason for shallow work relationships is high
| turnover.
| rojeee wrote:
| https://archive.is/Y7IFZ
| SketchySeaBeast wrote:
| Haven't our work relationships always been superficial? I'm not
| with these people because I want to be friends with them, I'm
| with them because I want to earn a living. If I find a friend
| along the way that's great, but I don't talk with 99.9% of the
| people I've ever worked with and don't much miss them.
| lovegoblin wrote:
| > I don't talk with 99.9% of the people I've ever worked with
| and don't much miss them.
|
| Maybe you don't miss them _because_ you never talked to them.
| jollybean wrote:
| Just because you're not friends doesn't mean the relationships
| are 'superficial'.
|
| I really enjoy the company of my work colleagues.
|
| Especially in a business setting, where it's not all 'heads
| down work', I think it's kind of important actually.
|
| Professionalism is resonant, being around other people lifts
| you up, you learn from them, are energized, hopefully in mostly
| positive ways.
|
| For Engineering work ... I'm worried that young folks won't
| have the opportunity for good mentors.
| sdevonoes wrote:
| Well, perhaps I'm in the minority group but the best mentors
| I have had are:
|
| - W. Richard Stevens
|
| - Andrew S. Tanenbaum
|
| - Brian Kernighan and Dennis Ritchie
|
| - ...
|
| Yes, I'm talking about books :)
| ducharmdev wrote:
| Mentors can give you feedback that books can't, though. No
| matter how good a person is at self-reflection, you simply
| can't perceive yourself outside of your own perspective.
|
| Not trying to knock reading of course, but it's no
| replacement for a good mentor.
| bonoboTP wrote:
| This kind of "anonymous" work is relatively recent. It's not
| how humans lived and worked for the majority of our existence.
| Before the industrial revolution, the vast majority of people
| worked in agriculture and most definitely knew who they were
| working with: their family, extended family and neighbors.
| Similarly, women were socializing while weaving clothes etc.
|
| This atomized "biorobot" view of the employee is quite new and
| doesn't seem very healthy.
| SketchySeaBeast wrote:
| Yeah, given the shift to strangers, I don't know why anyone
| would think it's strange that we aren't certain to make
| friends with these people.
| mLuby wrote:
| Perhaps because until recently a "career" meant working for
| one company for 35 years, likely in the same city. With that
| kind of stability, long-term friendships can blossom.
|
| It's harder if you're changing companies every 2-3 years and
| cities every 5-6 (as seems common enough in Tech at least).
|
| Digital nomads are the vanguard--look to them to see what
| works and what doesn't.
| PragmaticPulp wrote:
| > I'm not with these people because I want to be friends with
| them, I'm with them because I want to earn a living.
|
| False dichotomy. Building relationships and earning a living
| aren't mutually exclusive.
|
| Building healthy, lasting relationships with your peers isn't
| necessarily required to get a job done, but it certainly makes
| it more enjoyable. Of course not everyone is going to be
| interested in authentic relationships at work, but that doesn't
| mean that nobody wants to be friends at the office.
|
| If you can only view your work peers as pure business
| interactions, you're missing out.
| SketchySeaBeast wrote:
| Do you find you're still friends with a lot of people you
| worked with at your previous positions?
| PragmaticPulp wrote:
| Yes. I've found a lot of friends through previous work
| relationships.
|
| Honestly, the idea of being at a company and not walking
| away with at least a few long-term friends is very foreign
| to me.
|
| A purely transactional workplace would be a miserable place
| to work. It's much better to work somewhere where people
| can respect and appreciate each other beyond what's
| necessary to close out their next Jira ticket.
| SketchySeaBeast wrote:
| I guess that's the problem, the only places I've worked
| have been focused on billing time or closing tickets with
| everyone heads down on that.
| bitbuilder wrote:
| As a middle aged dude who's been in tech for 25 years, I
| can say that literally all of my close friends at this
| point in life were previous coworkers.
|
| Especially if you relocate away from your hometown for a
| job, I'm not sure why that would be surprising to anyone.
| You spend at least 8 hours a day with these people, it only
| makes sense you'd eventually build some connections with
| them. And as the parent post points out, it certainly makes
| the days more enjoyable when you've built healthy
| relationships with your peers.
|
| And come to think of it, most people 30+ I know seem to
| have friend groups of almost exclusively current or former
| coworkers. I don't think I'm by any means unique.
| tablespoon wrote:
| > Do you find you're still friends with a lot of people you
| worked with at your previous positions?
|
| I'm still friends with the previous coworkers that I formed
| the strongest friendships with.
|
| Just like pretty much every social situation, not every
| relationship can be a strong one. There will be a lot of
| weak ones that fall away when circumstances change (e.g.
| leaving school, moving to a new town, getting a new hobby
| and having less interest in old ones, etc). However, those
| weak ties can still be valuable and enjoyable during their
| lifetimes.
| amelius wrote:
| This is why company drinks and company outings are always so
| weird.
| SketchySeaBeast wrote:
| 'Oh look, people I work with every day and do my best to be
| professional in front of now want me to drink in front of
| them on my day off. This is going to be fun."
| beforeolives wrote:
| Think of it from the opposite direction - a requirement for
| forming and maintaing friendships is that you get to spend time
| with someone and interact with them on a regular basis. That
| makes work one of the most likely places to form friendships
| for adults.
| SketchySeaBeast wrote:
| I guess the assumed expiration date makes it harder for me to
| accept that I should make the effort to become friends.
| lovegoblin wrote:
| That's _why_ you become friends: so that you stay in touch
| after the "expiration date."
| tablespoon wrote:
| > Haven't our work relationships always been superficial?
|
| Not always, and not for everyone.
|
| > I'm not with these people because I want to be friends with
| them, I'm with them because I want to earn a living. If I find
| a friend along the way that's great, but I don't talk with
| 99.9% of the people I've ever worked with and don't much miss
| them.
|
| That attitude will directly lead to superficial relationships.
|
| Many people would like some non-superficial social connection
| to at least some of the people who they spend a large fraction
| of their days with, and seeking and maintaining some
| relationships like that is probably healthier, too.
| tenebrisalietum wrote:
| I don't necessarily want a non-professional relationship with
| everyone I encounter.
| tablespoon wrote:
| > I don't necessarily want a non-professional relationship
| with everyone I encounter.
|
| I don't know where your comment came from, because in no
| way did I suggest that anyone should try to be friends with
| everyone they meet.
| bartread wrote:
| But that's true of a lot of life isn't it?
|
| You get very little choice who you go to school with, and yet
| many people make lifelong friends at school. Even as I traverse
| middle age I'm still good friends with half a dozen people I
| went to school with, and on friendly speaking terms with at
| least a couple of dozen more.
|
| Work does seem different though: relationships often don't hold
| in the same way.
|
| I stay in touch with relatively few people out of the hundreds
| or (low) thousands I've worked with over the years. The vast
| majority of them are from one company where I worked for nearly
| 10 years, and most of them joined in the first 3 or 4 years of
| that 10 or were already there when I started.
|
| I suspect a lot of it boils down to the amount of "quality"
| time you spent together - directly interacting and sharing
| experiences - versus those you swap in and out with.
| eplanit wrote:
| True, and it depends on whether you've geographically moved
| over the years. I found that (unfortunately) ends friendships
| that would/could have developed.
| dazc wrote:
| Sometimes the only thing in common you have is where you work
| and this isn't enough to keep the realtionship going after
| they have left. With real friends you'll have some other
| common experiences that help maintain the bond. So, yes, the
| amount of quality time spent together out of a forced
| situation, such as sharing office space, is a big factor.
| emmap21 wrote:
| Remote work fits to a small close-knitted team less than 5
| people. More than that, there is so much that it's hard to fill.
| silicon2401 wrote:
| Depends who you ask. I have no problem with it, and I suspect
| plenty of others feel the same way.
| wayoutthere wrote:
| I definitely felt this earlier in my career. The solution for me
| was to stop looking to work to fill a need for purpose, and to
| start some creative hobbies as an outlet. This naturally got me
| meeting other people with similar interests.
|
| Work is work. Life is life. Personally I need boundaries and feel
| my life is healthier for it.
| JoeAltmaier wrote:
| I've got contacts with people I worked with 30 years ago. We have
| a bi-weekly Zoom chat for instance. Lasts for hours. Lots of fun.
|
| Friends? Sure, I've offered to come take care of them when
| they're having surgery, or invited to stay when the spouse is
| making them sleep on the couch. Even sent money a time or two
| when they're between jobs.
|
| Maybe its different nowadays. But coworkers used to be easy to
| make friends with.
| deleted_account wrote:
| FEI, this is a Financial Times summary of an Insead Knowledge
| adaptation of an MIT Sloan Management article. Go here if you
| want to read the source: https://sloanreview.mit.edu/article/are-
| your-team-members-lo...
| 4ggr0 wrote:
| EDIT: Should've looked at all the comments first -
| https://archive.is/Y7IFZ
|
| Someone has a non-paywalled link? Sounds like a very interesting
| topic.
| WhompingWindows wrote:
| Alternative viewpoint: Everyone is hyper-stimulated by modern
| entertainment and lovable hobbies, therefore making friends at
| work is becoming harder to do because we're all bifurcated in our
| free time. Our interests used to be more basic, more shared, our
| community was tighter knit. Now, I feel the Internet and
| consumerism has allowed a massive blossoming of new hobbies, DIY,
| go it your own way, hang out by yourself activities. Either that,
| or something like online gaming, where you're finding a digital
| community.
|
| Especially during the pandemic, I became very used to hanging out
| with only my partner, and I think our bubble has amplified my
| introverted habits.
| tachyonbeam wrote:
| The pandemic is a bit different from what was before because
| we're not really given a choice. That being said, I agree, and
| I think it's not just hobbies. If you think about music,
| Spotify exposes people to much wider array of choices than what
| was there before. It used to be that people had a common
| cultural thread through the radio and television. Now, you can
| find your own niche community online, and listen to very niche
| music customized to your very specific preferences on Spotify.
| Even porn is getting increasingly niche. I find that often,
| even friends who like similar music genres to mine don't really
| appreciate tunes I share with them, because everyone has
| diverged so much. Politics are getting super divisive too, with
| no tolerance for different viewpoints.
|
| I'm not sure what's the antidote to that. I do think that in
| many ways, technology is driving people apart, and I'm afraid
| we're headed the way of Japan (hikikomori). I think some people
| will choose to remain socially active and others will withdraw.
| At some level, interacting with other human beings is
| challenging, it takes effort, you have to want to do it.
| wussboy wrote:
| I think there's a lot of truth in your comment. I mentioned
| this elsewhere but as we hang out with the same people, our
| interests begin to align. This is what has always happened in
| the past and will hopefully happen again once we've realized
| that the Internet is death to sociality.
| cauliflower2718 wrote:
| Yes! I have found this to happen a over lockdown with my
| housemates. Not surprisingly, I recommend communal living.
| axaxs wrote:
| I agree, but it's been the case for a long time, and directly
| correlated to the propagation of the cell phone.
|
| I remember I went to a summer camp at college some 20+ years
| ago now. It was a blast, and I made a ton of friends because it
| was just pretty boring if you weren't forcing yourself to be
| out and about.
|
| By the time I went to college for real, anticipating the same
| experience, I was rather rudely awakened. Everyone was on their
| phone at any time, so it was less natural to strike up a
| conversation with someone. And this was -before- the Iphone, so
| I imagine it's even worse today.
| pkdpic_y9k wrote:
| Thats a really good point.
| NikolaeVarius wrote:
| Im perfectly fine being lonely at work. Go away
| msteffen wrote:
| Seems like a lot of comments are discussing how to address
| loneliness, so I'll share one tactic I've learned: you have to
| host.
|
| Everybody wants to join a meetup or club or whatever, but if you
| organize the event(s), and then invite people you like (from work
| or your kids' friends' parents) then you get the event you want
| and you strengthen those friendships. If you can make it happen
| consistently, those relationships can get quite strong over a few
| years, plus your friends will invite their friends and it gets
| better over time.
|
| The only downside is having to do event planning: clean your
| house (or pick a venue: park, hackerspace, church, cafe, gym,
| clubhouse if your apartment complex has one), email/text
| invitations, plan food, etc. This is a skill, though, and you get
| better with practice.
|
| (Edit: obviously rona makes this harder but e.g. my wife and I
| have a zoom call we do most mornings where we do a workout video
| and hang out for ~10-15 minutes. It's a lot better than nothing!)
| pmoriarty wrote:
| _" The only downside is having to do event planning: clean your
| house (or pick a venue: park, hackerspace, church, cafe, gym,
| clubhouse if your apartment complex has one), email/text
| invitations, plan food, etc. This is a skill, though, and you
| get better with practice."_
|
| Not only is it a skill, but it's very difficult to make that
| sort of effort when you are depressed, which many lonely people
| are.
| msteffen wrote:
| > Not only is it a skill, but it's very difficult to make
| that sort of effort when you are depressed, which many lonely
| people are.
|
| It's true. TBH to the extent I've done/helped with it, I've
| learned more about making it easy than doing it well. The
| easiest options I know about:
|
| - hike (you literally just need to agree on a trail and a
| time. People can bring their own food, or you can do it in
| the afternoon so it doesn't overlap with a meal)
|
| - hang out in a park/at the beach. Almost as easy as a hike
| but you do need food. This can just be pizza and drinks.
| Bring a barbecue and a cooler of (veggie) burgers/hot dogs,
| drinks, chips and dip if you want to get fancy
|
| - game night: almost the same as the park but you'd do it in
| your house (or apartment clubhouse). Slightly more clean-up,
| but food can be very easy and low-key (takeout, pizza,
| salad). This is easy to do regularly, too, and you can change
| the games depending on who's there, so it's got broad appeal.
| Board games are an obvious classic, and/or people can bring
| laptops, or you can set up a projector and an xbox. My
| roommates did this for years and we probably had over a
| hundred different guests at one point or another. People
| started bringing their own TVs and xboxes
|
| - dinner party/potluck: like game night, but for a group that
| likes to cook this can be super fun. You don't actually have
| to make much because there are N dishes, so you eat a 1/N
| portion of each. Also, if you do it regularly, sometimes
| everyone agrees they're too tired to cook and you just all go
| in on takeout and drinks, which is fun too.
|
| - group workouts: just need a gym and a time (or a park, you
| can do an outdoor workout)
|
| - meet at a bar: not even really hosting, but if you suggest
| it and get everyone to agree on a time, it actually is
| hosting
|
| (Finally: IME people are happy to venmo you for food if you
| ask in advance. Especially for recurring events this can be
| good to do, so that hosting stays fun for you)
| pmoriarty wrote:
| It depends on the severity of the depression, but people
| who are depressed can struggle to get out of bed, shower,
| eat, or brush their teeth. Many things that non-depressed
| people find easy are excruciatingly difficult for depressed
| people. Just picking up the phone and calling someone might
| be a struggle.
|
| Then there's the problem that many activities that might
| have seemed interesting and fun to do while the person was
| not depressed often seem uninteresting or meaningless when
| they are depressed.
|
| Finally, there's all the self-recrimination and self-
| loathing that comes from knowing you could "easily" have
| done all sorts of things to make your life better and reach
| out to people but just not done them, which spirals people
| even further in to depression.
|
| It's a really tough cycle to break.
| gcr wrote:
| this mindset is also exactly how good organizing in the
| workplace happens
| tenebrisalietum wrote:
| If A can fire B or unilaterally terminate the relationship, for
| any reason at any time, and B needs A's money/resources, then the
| relationship between A and B will always be superficial, and B
| will do non-genuine things so A doesn't fire B.
| scarface74 wrote:
| I made that mistake early in my career thinking managers were
| my friends.
|
| I have kept in touch with _former_ managers and tried to meet
| them for lunch at least once or twice a year pre Covid.
| JoeAltmaier wrote:
| Maybe not. I've always been frank with my 'managers'. I tell
| them "We both work for the company. I get support from you for
| information and resources. Other than that, try to stay out of
| my way?"
|
| As a more senior guy it works for me. Not for everybody, I get
| that. But its a way healthier relationship.
|
| Can they fire me? Sure. But I can get work again the next day.
| So go ahead, threaten and bluster manager guy. I've more than
| once picked up my coat and said "Are we done here?"
| tenebrisalietum wrote:
| Yep, you've solved the problem by turning "unilateral" into
| "bilateral" which is preferable. We can say the method in
| which you solved it by decreasing the social "distance" or
| "context" between you and who you report to--if you are
| spectacular at your job and working in a field where the
| labor balance is in your favor, it's easy. Other possible and
| less optimal strategies include having a preexisting personal
| relationship/friendship, being related to your boss,
| acquiring information or other blackmail, and/or being
| perceived as able to successfully win a lawsuit.
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