[HN Gopher] Thoughts on a "HDD shortage" from an industry insider
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Thoughts on a "HDD shortage" from an industry insider
Author : CharlesW
Score : 117 points
Date : 2021-05-01 17:54 UTC (5 hours ago)
(HTM) web link (www.reddit.com)
(TXT) w3m dump (www.reddit.com)
| herodoturtle wrote:
| There are quite a few (good) comments here focusing on the crypto
| aspect of this HDD supply shortage.
|
| That aside, to those of you that are scanning the comments here
| without having actually read the OP's reddit link - I'd urge you
| to read the linked page.
|
| It is an incredibly insightful summary of the HDD supply chain.
|
| (Whether it was indeed written by an "industry insider" or not is
| irrelevant; their analysis of the HDD market is highly
| informative)
| h2odragon wrote:
| "we expect a supply shortage lasting years again" but NFT's are
| still a better investment opportunity than a new hard drive
| manufacturer.
| bitL wrote:
| Hm, based on this I ordered 1x16TB and 2x14TB HDD drives right
| away (the maximum allowed at that seller, ~60% surcharge to the
| price from a week ago). If HDDs/SSDs end up as obtainable as
| GPUs, we are going to experience some serious troubles... I
| somehow managed to get 3x3090FE but that was just super lucky
| timing.
|
| I am not sure what grad student Deep Learning researchers are
| going to do?
| ansgri wrote:
| Maybe they finally turn their attention to models of manageable
| complexity and stop trying to create magic with models of
| enormous size that even in theory benefit only Big Adtech. Even
| mass surveillance requires rather small models.
| Firehawke wrote:
| It's interesting that that's precisely where we are with video
| cards-- the easiest way to get one is to buy a prebuilt system
| from any of the big names.
|
| It's really not much of a stretch to see HDs go to exactly that
| same pressure point.
| bitL wrote:
| It's also next to impossible to get workstation boards with
| many PCIe slots and now that spreads even to "creator" boards.
| I guess mining is going to eat it all.
| Haemm0r wrote:
| Our IT guy told us, that (about 10pcs) the Dell machines he
| ordered (T5810 or something similar) a couple of weeks ago will
| ship in July earliest(although the online shops states better
| delivery times). So there could be some shortage too or at
| least logistical problems...
| banana_giraffe wrote:
| And getting a prebuilt to get a video card is itself becoming
| hard at this point. The big names are pushing estimated
| delivery dates for prebuilts with 30 series cards out to June
| or July at this point.
|
| I suppose getting a card in July in a prebuilt is still better
| than not getting a card on its own.
|
| While I was digging around, it looks like some of the laptops
| with 30 series in them are even at the "ETA: One day soon!"
| point.
| nuclearwast wrote:
| It's 2011 again... It took ~7 years before price went back to
| what they were.
| Scoundreller wrote:
| The flood that shutdown that Thai HD motor plant was the start
| of SSDs' takeover.
| stefan_ wrote:
| You could probably take this and replace HDD with SSD or RAM and
| it would be just as correct.
| xondono wrote:
| Well, the primary difference is that cloud providers go through
| HDDs almost as consumables, while RAM and SSD are generally
| more long lasting.
|
| Contracts are set up in similar ways, but HDDs in general have
| more constraints baked in those contracts.
| bt1a wrote:
| I don't believe these terms are interchangeable, especially
| when this writeup is in response to Chia.
|
| Is it possible SSD or RAM have a similar bottleneck like
| read/write heads? Yes, but I don't know the answer.
| akiselev wrote:
| _> Is it possible SSD or RAM have a similar bottleneck like
| read /write heads?_
|
| Yes. You could replace "read/write heads" with "chips" and
| it'd apply just as easily to SSD and RAM. Texas's freak
| weather shut down Samsung's Texas fab which caused a shortage
| of SSD controller chips, for example. After the February
| outage, I don't think they started to tape out again until
| April.
| nullc wrote:
| It's really important that manufacturers start responding to
| cryptocurrency induced shortages with auctions.
|
| The demand from the cryptocurrency users will be extremely high
| until they've spent a particular amount in total. They can do
| that with 1000 units, or with 5000 units.
|
| Obviously auctioning off units would be bad for having
| predictable prices for retail customers but that is irrelevant if
| aggressive miner buying is buying up all the supply.
|
| Moreover, shareholders at the manufacturers should be demanding
| it: they're leaving money on the table.
| IAmGraydon wrote:
| This is asinine. You would be making the product only available
| to those who can turn the highest profit from it and would lose
| the rest of your customer base to your competitor who is smart
| enough to not use an auction model. The entire cash flow would
| come from one narrow sector which would eventually collapse,
| leaving you with no customers. Business models evolve toward
| efficiency, and there is a good reason no one is doing this.
| dehrmann wrote:
| You realize capitalism is a system for allocating scare
| goods, right? An auction model means manufacturers benefit
| directly, and unless they're in a cartel, the high prices
| incentivize them to increase production. We see this happen
| all the time in the oil marker with marginal producers
| entering and exiting the market. Without an auction, anyone
| lucky enough to win the HDD lottery will have the same
| incentive, only they'll sell it on ebay.
| the8472 wrote:
| That sounds like a one-shot model. Auctions for mass-produced
| goods would be per batch. Nullc's argument is that driving up
| the price of auctions would exhaust whatever cash pile the
| miners are sitting on faster, which means they would gobble
| up fewer harddrives than they will if the prices are kept
| low.
| gruez wrote:
| >You would be making the product only available to those who
| can turn the highest profit from it and would lose the rest
| of your customer base to your competitor who is smart enough
| to not use an auction model
|
| Auction sucks because it drives the price of goods up, but
| you know what's worse than prices going up? Prices going to
| _infinity_ because they 're out of stock.
| fpgaminer wrote:
| 1) Nvidia et al. have to work with Big Retail (tm) [i.e.
| Walmart, Target, Best Buy]. Big Retail isn't interested in
| doing auctions. They function off the tried and true MSRP
| model. No matter how much money is being left on the table.
| This applies just as much to GPUs and hard drives as it does to
| the recent console shortages.
|
| I've worked with Big Retail execs before. They're old school
| and conservative (in the business sense).
|
| In a smoke filled CES hotel room they shook hands on a deal of
| X for $Y, and that's how it's going to stay for the next
| decade.
|
| 2) Risk. These shortages and cryptocurrency demand spikes are a
| blip on the history of these companies. It'd be stupid to
| suddenly change their entire business models and retail
| relationships for something that could disappear next month.
|
| As much as I believe cryptocurrency and hence mining is here to
| stay, I can't fault these companies for not believing the same
| and acting accordingly. Especially given the cycles of boom and
| bust that cryptocurrencies have gone through.
| AlexandrB wrote:
| This sounds great. Hard drive prices will start increasing
| until building a computer is prohibitively expensive unless
| you're a large scale OEM that can make bulk contracts. Another
| example of cryptocurrency empowering individuals.
| hdhrnnrkrkf wrote:
| Burning your regular customers is terrible business practice.
| It's not always about the money.
|
| Also, remember when Martin Shkreli increased the price of an
| anti-parasitic drug by 5000%? That upset a lot of people, and
| arguably it's what put him in jail. Of course, HDDs are not
| quite the same as vital medicine.
| orev wrote:
| An auction is not an arbitrary increase just because you can.
| It's the exact opposite- a natural market where supply and
| demand reach the optimal price.
|
| Yeah it's bad for regular customers, but if there's no supply
| then what would they be able to get anyway?
| 99_00 wrote:
| I've never built a PC. I expect the crytpocurency bubble to
| collapse because my tech ignorant accountant friend asked what I
| know about building a crypto mining rig.
|
| What should I read to prepare myself to take advantage of the
| cheap used high end hardware that will hit the market do build a
| Windows or Linux system for my own pleasure.
| scientismer wrote:
| I wouldn't count on the cheap hardware, it may be pretty much
| broken after endless full power use for mining.
| shiftpgdn wrote:
| I mined bitcoin, litecoin and later dogecoin on a bunch of
| workstations in a hot humid garage in Houston, Texas for
| years straight. I gave one of the workstations to a friend
| when I retired from mining in 2013 or so. It was still
| running fine when he retired it last year. Consumer
| electronics are much more durable than you would imagine.
| Slartie wrote:
| Miners usually undervolt the GPUs to mine at peak efficiency,
| not peak performance and power consumption. Since chip wear
| correlates with power usage and heat production, GPU usage
| for mining is actually much less taxing for the hardware than
| typical gaming use with its frequent overclocking and rapid
| alterations between low and maximum power use.
| mhh__ wrote:
| Presumably you're familiar with ebay?
|
| (I wouldn't necessarily trust parts that have been worked to
| death btw)
| bitL wrote:
| Coinbase had IPO, meaning serious business bought their shares,
| hedge and pension funds - I would be careful expecting any kind
| of normalcy in the next 2-3 years.
| 99_00 wrote:
| >serious business bought their shares, hedge and pension
| funds
|
| Your assuming that proves a point, but it doesn't.
| dehrmann wrote:
| Coinbase had a direct listing. There was no roadshow to line
| up institutional investors. I'm sure some big-time investors
| bought shares, but I'm sure some retail ones did, too. You
| know who sold? Early Coinbase investors and employees.
| Havoc wrote:
| I wouldn't count on it collapsing any time soon. Not with
| everyone from Visa to Time magazine jumping on the bandwagon
|
| >I've never built a PC.
|
| Definitely worthwhile. Basically lego for adults. Tons of good
| info here
|
| https://old.reddit.com/r/buildapc/
| graeme wrote:
| There is a well known curse to Time/Newsweek/Businessweek
| covers. Things that make the front page there tend to do
| worse.
|
| No guarantee, but it's more of an anti signal.
| diarrhea wrote:
| That's regression to the mean and perfectly normal, there's
| a whole science associated with it. It's not a curse or
| even specific to any outlet. This is a suitable example: ht
| tps://web.archive.org/web/20210121061334/http://wmbriggs.c.
| ..
| graeme wrote:
| Right. I just meant being in Time is not much of a signal
| Havoc wrote:
| I meant Time accepts BTC for subscriptions now...not Time
| as in BTC making Time cover
| humaniania wrote:
| TIL all it takes to be a reputable "industry insider" is an
| anonymous reddit account.
| okareaman wrote:
| Says 'humaniania'
| wnevets wrote:
| Do you really need to be an "industry insider" to make any of
| their observations? Nothing they said seems to require they be
| actual "industry insider".
| jessriedel wrote:
| Exactly. These are all check-able facts (not, e.g.,
| allegations of secret dealings or something). The fact that
| he works in the industry is what allows him to write this
| compactly; it's not proof of correctness.
| ericbarrett wrote:
| I was in the storage industry (demand side) for many years and
| nothing the Reddit poster said is wrong. S/he correctly
| described the allocation process with regard to retail channels
| and large direct customers, as well as the non-fungibility of
| read/write heads. Their speculation about whether there will be
| a shortage is just that--speculation.
| hyperman1 wrote:
| The scary thing is, I don't know if I can trust him less than
| any 'reputable newspaper'. At least if this he says dumb
| things, someone on HN will call him out. The reputable source
| has only one voice, it will say anything that brings in extra
| money, and lots of invisible third parties will try to
| influence it.
| beervirus wrote:
| https://old.reddit.com/r/chia/comments/n2lren/thoughts_on_a_...
|
| Fixed link.
| hsbauauvhabzb wrote:
| Thanks, I can't view the original on my phone without the app
| because 'Reddit can't verify the community is not 18+' which is
| a thinly veiled user hostile move-to-our app play. Shame on
| them.
| jl6 wrote:
| Bitcoin ate all the GPUs and I said nothing because I was not a
| gamer.
|
| Now Chia wants to eat all the hard disks, and I am _pissed_. I
| declare war on hegemonizing proof-of-waste swarms. Burn the
| coins. I want that disk space back.
| yellow_lead wrote:
| Chia claims to be a more green solution. Even going as far as
| to call their white paper a "green paper." Not sure anyone told
| them that burning through hard drives isn't very green either.
|
| [1] https://www.chia.net/greenpaper/
| gruez wrote:
| Yeah, all the electricity savings is just going to go towards
| buying (aka manufacturing) more hard drives.
| [deleted]
| ancientworldnow wrote:
| Ethereum are the GPU's. Bitcoin utilizes ASIC's designed only
| for Bitcoin. This is an eventual e-waste issue, but not a GPU
| supply issue.
| spuz wrote:
| There was a period between about 2011 and 2014 when the
| fastest way to mine bitcoin was on a GPU and it did cause a
| shortage in cards:
|
| https://www.fool.com/investing/general/2013/12/11/amds-
| graph...
| mistrial9 wrote:
| there is no "eventual E-Waste issue" .. there has been an
| E-Waste issue for 20+ years. Ridiculous amounts of fresh
| water, electricity, transport fuel and other non-renewables
| have been poured into the PC industry since most here were
| born. The damage that this does is proportional to a few
| things, like the source of the electricity and the
| containment of the material and "end of life" .. Consumer
| electronics have been living way past their means for
| decades, but in the age of COMDEX Las Vegas, as long as the
| quarterly results match, few in a decision-making role
| actually care.
| formerly_proven wrote:
| Nobody cares which coin of the week is used, it is time to
| get rid of the crypto garbage.
| jfim wrote:
| Do bitcoin ASICs compete for the same limited IC foundry
| space?
| Phlarp wrote:
| Antminer S19 uses a 7nm process, so yes.
| cheaprentalyeti wrote:
| Uh, the last time I checked, Bitcoin mining typically uses
| ASICs. GPUs are not involved.
| hsbauauvhabzb wrote:
| Last I checked, miners aren't mining Bitcoin anymore. But
| miners are making the GPU shortage worse.
| [deleted]
| fmajid wrote:
| "Chia" means "shat" in French.
| sopp wrote:
| Do you mean "chie"? (shee-eh)
| capableweb wrote:
| "Chia" also refers to the plant "Salvia hispanica", that's
| Nahuatl/Mexicano.
| meowster wrote:
| I'm from the U.S., and when I hear/read "Chia", I think of
| the Chia Pet.
|
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chia_Pet
| justinator wrote:
| They are one and the same!
| fmajid wrote:
| Quite frankly, I'd rather eat shit.
| graeme wrote:
| You mean chier, the verb. Chia means chia
| TacticalCoder wrote:
| Well the simple past tense / 3rd person of "chier" is
| precisely "chia", spelled exactly like that. The herb/plant
| "chia" always sounds a bit weird to my ears because it
| makes me think of the verb tense... "Il chia" / "He shat".
| So GP is totally correct.
| EMM_386 wrote:
| In that thread, they do the math on Chia's current effect, and
| it is tiny.
|
| Not to say it won't grow to become a problem but even at 1EB of
| storage, it's not a problem:
|
| > Data center storage growth is round 2-2.5 EB/day. The 1.4 EB
| used by Chia so far is less than one day's data center growth.
|
| I'm not defending yet another wasteful use of cryptocurrency
| ... first it was the GPUs now its the SSDs.
| seanalexander wrote:
| Until we live in some horrid future where computers no longer
| have storage and we all use the cloud, consumers need to buy
| HDDs too. Not just data centers. This is a retail-level
| issue, not a data center growth issue. It's the same as how
| GPUs aren't on shelves because people use them to mine --
| ASICs are better but the ASIC game is hard for retail
| "miners" to get into.
| hdhrnnrkrkf wrote:
| Sample size 1: every 3 months I need to buy a large hard drive
| (14TB+). I buy external USB ones since they are the cheapest.
|
| Since it was due, in the last couple of weeks I was scanning
| prices in Romania daily, in case I get lucky with a discount. In
| the last week, prices surged 60-100%, and stock disappeared for 4
| TB+.
|
| I panicked and after a lot of scanning I managed to buy a
| slightly smaller one than I needed with just a 20% surcharge.
|
| Prices on Amazon UK are also out of control.
|
| So now we are out of chips, CPUs, GPUs and hard drives. What a
| time to be alive :)
|
| PS: I would love to hear Backblaze take on this shortage.
| nonameiguess wrote:
| I just checked my Amazon order history right now. Last time I
| bought a Samsung Evo Plus 1 TB SSD was last August, 2020, for
| $189. Price right now if I buy it today is $159. Last HDD I
| bought was a 12 TB Seagate Ironwolf for $269, in October 2020.
| Today's price for the same drive is $325. It is out of stock,
| but says I can get it May 18th.
| ramshanker wrote:
| CPU, GPU and Hard Drive.... guess we can have more dumb devices
| for now instead of everything IoT.
| giantrobot wrote:
| Wait until I unveil IoTCoin, it'll use PoIoT to verify the
| blockchain. Keep an eye out for my ICO!
|
| /s (or is it?)
| joeyh wrote:
| HNT Hotspot Miners are uncomfortably close.
| Ericson2314 wrote:
| Shortages are good.
|
| It's the perfect time to set up manufacturing capability, so
| nationalists can be happy.
|
| It's a good time to push for hire wages, workers should do it.
|
| If there is some alternative industrial process, now's the time
| to try it.
|
| This is no 70s oil moment, because there's no indication fewer
| widgets are being produced than prepandemic.
| newsclues wrote:
| I think it's a logistics problem, so adding more supply via
| new factories (unless local) won't resolve the problem if the
| goods can't be shipped.
| smolder wrote:
| This doesn't change that the shortages are caused by
| processes with infinite appetites. The demand grows with the
| supply, for hardware used by cryptocurrencies. To me it looks
| like the polar opposite of sustainability, which is
| distressing.
| oceanplexian wrote:
| I just don't get the sustainability argument..
|
| Who decided that all computing must be for a sustainable or
| meaningful purpose? Cryptocurrency, as wasteful as it might
| appear, is like a drop in the ocean compared to the data
| centers of Google, Facebook, Microsoft, etc. Likes on
| Facebook provide much less value to society than a
| distributed currency that circumvents central control over
| the financial system.
|
| Second, Crypto doesn't exist in a vacuum. How much "energy"
| does it take to disassemble a mountain and suck out
| precious metals or diamonds? How much energy does it take
| to manufacture all the coins and paper money the world
| over? And how many innocent people have been gunned down
| for the petrodollar or some other dispute over fiat
| currency?
| TeMPOraL wrote:
| > _Cryptocurrency, as wasteful as it might appear, is
| like a drop in the ocean compared to the data centers of
| Google, Facebook, Microsoft, etc._
|
| It isn't, as 'mytherin points out.
|
| > _Likes on Facebook provide much less value to society_
|
| That's absurdly untrue. For all the warts of big social
| media players, they still provide tremendous social value
| - rich long-distance communication, organizing ad-hoc
| groups of people (including, in particular, meatspace
| ones), improved exchange of news worldwide, making things
| easier for local commerce, ... I could go on. And while
| these services can, and are, being misused, they are
| still at least doing something useful.
|
| > _than a distributed currency that circumvents central
| control over the financial system._
|
| Except it doesn't. But even if it did, this isn't
| necessarily a good idea in the first place.
|
| > _How much "energy" does it take to disassemble a
| mountain and suck out precious metals or diamonds?_
|
| Less than it takes to run Bitcoin, and it's also a one-
| time expense.
|
| > _How much energy does it take to manufacture all the
| coins and paper money the world over?_
|
| Not that much on an ongoing basis. It's also O(n) with
| respect to the amount of extra money you need in
| circulation. A trivial cost compared to what the upkeep
| would be if we tried to run the world economy on Bitcoin.
|
| > _And how many innocent people have been gunned down for
| the petrodollar or some other dispute over fiat
| currency?_
|
| People kill other people for profit. That's a fact of
| life, independent of the way money is represented. That
| they don't kill each other over crypto says only one
| thing: that right now, cryptocurrencies are _completely
| irrelevant to the economy_. If crypto ever sees any
| serious adoption, a proportional body count will follow.
|
| (Also, I imagine the number for Bitcoin is already
| greater than zero, given that cryptocurrencies are
| disproportionally popular with criminals compared to
| general population.)
| MereInterest wrote:
| > Not that much on an ongoing basis. It's also O(n) with
| respect to the amount of extra money you need in
| circulation.
|
| I think this isn't quite correct, but is even more in
| favor of fiat currency. Minting money costs in proportion
| to the number of bills/coins. If more value is needed,
| the denomination being printed can be changed to
| represent more value with the same cost.
|
| On the other hand, cryptocurrencies require wasting
| resources proportional to the total value represented by
| them. Any less and they are vulnerable to attacks.
| Therefore, (as I'm sure will come as a shock to nobody)
| this is another way that cryptocurrencies scale worse
| than fiat.
| Judgmentality wrote:
| > People kill other people for profit. That's a fact of
| life, independent of the way money is represented. That
| they don't kill each other over crypto says only one
| thing: that right now, cryptocurrencies are completely
| irrelevant to the economy. If crypto ever sees any
| serious adoption, a proportional body count will follow.
|
| This is a fascinating insight I had not considered.
| mytherin wrote:
| Bitcoin alone is estimated to use around 129 TWh of
| electricity [1], compared to 12 TWh for Google or 200 TWh
| for _literally all other data centers_ [2]. Hardly a drop
| in the bucket, unless that drop is the size of 10
| buckets. Surely not even the most hardcore cryptocurrency
| enthusiast would argue that crypto provides anywhere near
| the utility of _the rest of the entire internet_.
|
| [1] https://www.visualcapitalist.com/visualizing-the-
| power-consu...
|
| [2] https://www.deccanherald.com/business/why-bitcoin-
| uses-10-ti...
| [deleted]
| entropea wrote:
| >Cryptocurrency, as wasteful as it might appear, is like
| a drop in the ocean compared to the data centers of
| Google, Facebook, Microsoft, etc.
|
| https://www.eenewseurope.com/news/first-seven-
| customers-5nm-...
|
| Are you sure? Bitmain is competing for 5nm wafers against
| the largest electronics manufacturers in the world.
| gruez wrote:
| >It's the perfect time to set up manufacturing capability, so
| nationalists can be happy.
|
| >If there is some alternative industrial process, now's the
| time to try it.
|
| wouldn't this take years?
|
| >It's a good time to push for hire wages, workers should do
| it.
|
| This is just speculation on my part, but I suspect hard drive
| manufacturing is much more labor intensive than capital
| intensive. Therefore I doubt this will translate into higher
| wages.
| bcrosby95 wrote:
| Companies won't invest in factories if they think the demand
| is temporary. Because by the time they come online the demand
| will be gone.
| hogFeast wrote:
| > Prices on Amazon UK are also out of control
|
| ...they are not. Sale last week for 8TB at PS14/TB. I would say
| that prices are marginally higher than they were a few weeks
| ago...average prices are probably PS16/TB at the top consumer
| end but supply is fine, this price is not particularly high
| historically, it is not unmanageable for individuals, SSDs
| prices are cratering (hint: buy stuff that doesn't have massive
| TBW, these consumer drives are unusuable for Chia...prices of
| this stuff has dropped by 20-30% in the past few months), and
| there is ample supply on other sites too (I believe the issue
| with Amazon is that they just ran some huge discounts on the
| external drives popular with consumers..they will be restocked
| in a week or so).
|
| Also, you can pick up used stuff too. The supply of used drives
| with lots of life left is basically endless. And no-one is
| mining with 4TB drives.
| vladvasiliu wrote:
| My sample size of 1 shows little to no move, although I wasn't
| looking at drives as large as you.
|
| In my case I was having my eyes on 5 TB 2.5" drives. I don't
| _need_ them, I 'd just _maybe like_ them, so I haven 't pulled
| the trigger, but I have them set aside on Amazon France. The
| price has stayed within a few euros of 110 EUR for the last 2-3
| months.
| nicbou wrote:
| Same here for the same product, but in Germany.
| hdhrnnrkrkf wrote:
| My advice would be to decide today if you want them or not.
| They are not going to get cheaper, and could get
| significantly more expensive in days.
| gruez wrote:
| I'm not sure how pricing works where you live, but to get
| optimal pricing I usually have to wait a few months, or maybe
| even a year (black Friday). Given that all time lows for hard
| drive prices haven't budged much in the past few years, why buy
| every few months rather than stocking up when prices are low?
|
| Anyways for my data point: there was some external hard drives
| on sale for 5-10% higher than "optimal" prices.
|
| >and stock disappeared for 4 TB+.
|
| That's strange because those drives have terrible TB/$ compared
| to 10+TB drives.
| hdhrnnrkrkf wrote:
| Opportunity cost. By keeping my cash in bitcoin I can now buy
| (well, not with this shortage) 5 times more hard drives than
| last black Friday.
| SECProto wrote:
| > By keeping my cash in bitcoin I can now buy (well, not
| with this shortage) 5 times more hard drives than last
| black Friday.
|
| Probably only 4 after you pay the appropriate capital gains
| taxes, I'd hope. :)
| Semaphor wrote:
| If they have to. Not sure how it works in Romania, but in
| Germany you can sell coins held for 1 year or more
| without having to pay taxes.
| humaniania wrote:
| My advice is to ignore anonymous new accounts making
| inflammatory and fear mongering statements.
| hdhrnnrkrkf wrote:
| Open Amazon and look up hard drive prices and availability.
|
| This one is easy to fact check.
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