[HN Gopher] She built a toy empire while hiding a lifetime of ex...
___________________________________________________________________
She built a toy empire while hiding a lifetime of existential
depression
Author : robg
Score : 76 points
Date : 2021-05-01 13:42 UTC (9 hours ago)
(HTM) web link (www.washingtonpost.com)
(TXT) w3m dump (www.washingtonpost.com)
| RcouF1uZ4gsC wrote:
| > But when she did Bernstein was able to stop hiding -- and
| hating -- so much of herself. "My therapy has been in accepting
| the paradox that light doesn't come without dark and highs don't
| come without lows," she says. "That if I want to be creative to
| the extent I am, then it's going to have a dark side. And it
| does."
|
| I think the big danger in trying to put a medical diagnosis on
| everything is that it gives a false sense of what is normal and
| abnormal. When I hear statements like xx% of people have issues
| with depression, one thought is, what if depression isn't an
| illness, but just a variant of normal.
|
| Throughout history many, many of the great people, especially
| creatives struggled with depression. The Greeks actually had
| melancholy as one of the 4 humors and accepted that a certain
| percentage of people would be melancholic.
|
| Modern psychiatry and psychology seems to have a norm in mind and
| people who don't fit that norm have an illness. See for example
| back when the DSM classified same sex attraction as a mental
| illness. Now we realize that it is just a normal variant of human
| sexuality and not an illness to be treated. Similar thing with
| ADHD. We are seeing 3 and 4 year olds put on medication. If you
| look at the life of Thomas Edison it seems he may have had what
| we would today call ADHD. If he had been medicated to be
| "normal", would he have been able to do all those prodigious
| accomplishments?
|
| Sometimes, there can be great benefit in seeing something not as
| a disease but just a variant of normal with some advantages and
| disadvantages compared to the typical, and accepting it.
| guerrilla wrote:
| > Modern psychiatry and psychology seems to have a norm in mind
| and people who don't fit that norm have an illness.
|
| This isn't it. The diagnoses usually have criteria for the
| symptoms being a problem for the persons functioning. People
| don't seek help because they're a bit diffeent but because
| they're suffering to the point of having difficulty living.
| JoeAltmaier wrote:
| That's putting lipstick on a pig. Chronic depression is
| debilitating. A person without depression functions better than
| a person with depression.
| RcouF1uZ4gsC wrote:
| But Melissa in the article clearly isn't debilitated. She
| functions better than 99.9% of all the people out there. In
| fact her depression, may actually contribute to what makes
| her so successful.
| obsequiosity wrote:
| Here's a radical idea: except for drugs with a high abuse-
| liability, all psychoactive medications could be allowed
| "behind the counter" like pseudoephedrine. The
| psychiatrist's role becomes strictly advisory (coupled with
| medical malpractice waivers), and the patient is free to
| experiment with whatever substance they like so as to find
| their best fit. People already "self-medicate" for focus
| and arousal with xanthines in coffee and chocolate, and for
| anxiety with anxiolytics like gabanergic ethanol in alcohol
| and partial serotonin agonist cannabidiol in cannabis. This
| is just opening the floodgates a bit more for those who
| aren't afraid to learn about psychopharmacology and work
| closely with their doctor in managing their mood and
| attention.
|
| If this sounds crazy or spurious, then you'll probably
| agree that fixing abnormal psychology is actually as
| complicated as debugging the world's most complex software
| system.
| nr2x wrote:
| From a standpoint of value in a capitalist society she's
| not debilitated if she makes money. From a standpoint of
| living a life where one is fulfilled and has peace of mind,
| money isn't the relevant metric.
| RcouF1uZ4gsC wrote:
| It is not just value in a capitalist society.
|
| Form the article, it seems she has a happy relationship
| with her husband and 6 children.
|
| She is able to do something that she truly loves and is
| good it (designing toys, which the article mentions gives
| her euphoria).
|
| She has brought joy to thousands ( if not millions) of
| children through her work.
|
| Herb toys are actually beneficial to children in terms of
| stimulating their imagination and creativity unlike a lot
| of other things that are marketed to children.
|
| Even apart from the money, she has had a good life. And
| it seems, from the article, that she has embraced the way
| she is (both the good and the bad) and has found peace
| with it.
| watwut wrote:
| She called it dark side. And by the sound of it, she
| would happily do without dark side. Which is why she
| finally went to therapy.
|
| > She battled eating disorders, exercise addiction,
| obsessive-compulsive tendencies, a nagging sense of
| worthlessness, doubts that life had any meaning or
| purpose, and the routine emergence of suicidal thoughts.
| [...] By junior high she'd learned how to starve herself.
| [...] suffered a mental breakdown and seriously
| considered suicide
|
| That happy marriage and kids were heavily affected too.
| Yes she loved them. Read this:
|
| > It was imperative for them to be the very best
| athletes, brightest students and most popular of their
| peer group to ensure my sense of wholeness," she writes,
| rather than -- as she puts it -- "choosing to be
| average."
|
| She was not happy nor in peace with herself. She was
| deeply unhappy, using activity and perfectionism to
| prevent mental descent into darkness.
| staticman2 wrote:
| I don't think fulfillment and peace of mind are
| psychiatric diagnostic criteria.
| tediousdemise wrote:
| There is also the consideration whether the abnormality causes
| distress to the patient.
|
| _As an example_ , the average gay person may not be distressed
| about being gay. However, the average trans person may feel
| uneasy about their physical body. This is why the DSM-V
| describes gender dysphoria, previously known as gender identity
| disorder. [1]
|
| Feelings be damned, I think that _anything_ that causes a
| person to feel bad, particularly bad feelings that stem from
| internal causes, should be considered a disorder. This is not a
| bad thing, since recognizing a problem is usually the first
| step to fixing it.
|
| [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gender_dysphoria
| pmoriarty wrote:
| _" I think that anything that causes a person to feel bad,
| particularly bad feelings that stem from internal causes,
| should be considered a disorder"_
|
| What if someone feels bad when they hurt someone else?
|
| Should that be considered a disorder?
|
| This is not just a theoretical question, as I've read that
| the military has been funding research in to whether drugs
| can be used to assuage feelings of guilt and distress some of
| their trained killers suffer from when they hurt/kill other
| people.
|
| The military wants their soldiers to be more efficient
| killers and pesky feelings of guilt or suffering when they
| hurt/kill others gets in the way of that.
|
| So should every source of negative feelings be extinguished,
| and should we all try to live life with a smile on our faces
| even when we engage in unethical or hurtful actions?
| staticman2 wrote:
| I listened to a lecture on psychology by The Great Courses
| and the lecturer said historically they stopped labeling gay
| people as having a mental illness because the patients did
| not respond to treatment, so the logic at the time was not
| whether the patients were not suffering.
|
| The lecturer pointed out this made no sense because in other
| contexts doctors would not say if they can't treat it, it's
| not a disease.
|
| I'm guessing the patients thought they were going to hell, or
| thought society was going to abuse them, or they wanted to be
| heterosexual so they could have kids or whatever and said
| "please make me not gay, doc". So they _were_ suffering.
|
| If "treating the gay" worked it might still be considered an
| illness today I guess.
|
| My point is only the disease labels are arbitrary. And
| there's a downside to labeling things, especially thing you
| cannot effectively treat. Also, trusting Doctors without a
| dose of skepticism can be a mistake.
| throwaway481048 wrote:
| I know mental health is not HN's primary focus, but the lack of
| attention to this story is (in my opinion) reflective of the
| state of mental health stigma in the US.
|
| Even with Bernstein achieving the ever-elusive "American dream",
| conversation surrounding this particular article's topic is
| wearisome to some and even warrantless to others.
|
| We need to do better. Publishing and discussing stories like this
| is just a start.
|
| Mental health is real, and if you are struggling, please know
| that you are not alone, never will be, and should seek help to
| make you as happy as you deserve. There is nothing wrong with
| this, just like the maintenance necessary for anything utilized
| routinely.
| okareaman wrote:
| I have bipolar disorder and I would generally tend to agree
| with you, but this article reads more like a PR piece for her
| toy company. "Existential Depression" is more of a pop
| diagnosis. If you google it you'll see a lot of articles about
| gifted people and existential depression - it's the depression
| you can feel good about because it implies you are gifted.
| blantonl wrote:
| There is no way a 5 year old wrote this poem:
|
| _The burden of myself_
|
| _Has grown impossible to bear_
|
| _Although rather than slip further_
|
| _Down this mountain of despair_
|
| _I will simply cry for help_
|
| _And hope an angel hears my plea_
|
| _Or I'll not survive much longer_
|
| _And succumb to misery._
| tediousdemise wrote:
| I had the same reaction, but then I remembered that child
| prodigies _do_ exist.
|
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_child_prodigies
| wizzard wrote:
| It's not strictly impossible, but it's highly improbable. If
| she was capable of writing that at 5 her whole life would
| have been on a different trajectory.
| imoverclocked wrote:
| Not necessarily. Bright people are often
| unhappy/depressed/etc and then lack the appropriate
| resources to succeed.
| MeinBlutIstBlau wrote:
| I agree a noticed that too. Even excellent kids in kindergarten
| with me could barely read and write, let alone make something
| of that quality.
| hchz wrote:
| Sylvia Plath was publishing complex poetry at 8 and was already
| showing the intense and dark themes she's become an icon for at
| 14.
|
| If you haven't dealt with what Plath or this woman has, or are
| some credentialed authority on early childhood development of
| exceptional children (or poetry), I can't understand why your
| speculation on this is worth listening to.
| brandonmenc wrote:
| 8 and 14 are not 5, and I'm also skeptical, but also not an
| expert in any of these areas.
|
| For comparison, here is the "complex poetry" Plath had
| published at age 8 (titled simply, "Poem"):
|
| "Hear the crickets chirping
|
| In the dewy grass.
|
| Bright little fireflies
|
| Twinkle as they pass."
| anoncake wrote:
| https://archive.is/HkkhU
| tamade wrote:
| I'm sympathetic and glad she's better now, but the WaPo article
| reads like a puff piece with a heavy PR imprint
|
| https://homesoftherich.net/2012/01/toy-entrepreneurs-and-the...
| moonshinefe wrote:
| what's the point of the link exactly?
| elteto wrote:
| She owns a mansion, obviously she can't suffer from mental
| illness!
|
| /s
| pmoriarty wrote:
| I don't agree with that sarcastic statement, but I have
| been noticing lately that most of the really popular
| accounts of depression tend to come from really successful
| people, and I do wonder if their narratives might be
| distorting what depression is like for the rest of us...
| and particularly for those who are very far from being
| CEO's, famous actors/actresses, bestselling authors, etc.
| meepmorp wrote:
| Make sure you don't empathize with her, because there's no
| possible reason to discuss her mental illness in public
| except for PR purposes. You can tell, cause she's rich.
| tediousdemise wrote:
| I don't know this lady or her struggles, but the article paints a
| very clear picture of someone with childhood-onset bipolar
| disorder who has gone from manically creative highs to depressing
| lows.
|
| Strangely, there was no mention of it, aside from "relentless
| anxiety and depression, eating disorders, exercise addiction,
| obsessive-compulsive tendencies." All of these are common
| comorbidities in bipolar individuals.
| ludamad wrote:
| What's the advantage of labelled baskets of symptoms vs
| treating symptoms from first principles? Honest question
| bosie wrote:
| do you mind expanding on what 'treating symptoms from first
| principles' means? I have a hard time visualising how that
| works in medicine
| [deleted]
| ludamad wrote:
| I guess first principles here just meant whatever you might
| do without the other symptoms in consideration
| LatteLazy wrote:
| The theory has been that if you could find a single
| underlying cause, you could just treat that, and then all the
| symptoms would disappear in one go. This would also let you
| treat symptoms that can't be treated directly (you can
| tranquilise away anxiety, you can't do much about hearing
| voices).
|
| That theory has largely failed as we can't even really agree
| which groups of symptoms make which diseases. Hence the
| constant changes to systems like the DSM.
|
| Full disclosure, I may be bias and I'm also an example: I
| have Major Mood Disorder. I used to have Severe Clinical
| Depression. Before that, I had Treatment Resistant
| Depression. Before that it was just Clinical Monopolar
| Depression (It's still called monopolar sometimes to
| differentiate it from Bipolar). My symptoms haven't changed.
| Nor has the treatments offered. But in the last 10y we've
| repeatedly renamed, recategorised, reshuffled etc just common
| depression. God knows what it's like in more complex, less
| common symptom sets...
|
| The BBCs Life Scientific podcast discusses this very question
| in this episode if you're interested:
|
| https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/m000sj7c
|
| The wider series is also very good imho.
| hpoe wrote:
| This kind of constant relabeling and recategorizing along
| with everyone I know who works in mental health fields
| constantly diagnosing everyone around them is why I am
| skeptical of the entire field of psychology/psychiatry.
| tediousdemise wrote:
| Look at it this way. Turbulence is an observable
| phenomenon that you may have experienced while riding an
| airplane.
|
| Modern fluid dynamics cannot adequately explain
| turbulence. Richard Feynman has described turbulence as
| the most important unsolved problem in classical
| physics.[1] We don't dismiss fluid dynamics because
| turbulence is ill-defined, and we also don't deny that
| turbulence exists just because we lack a thorough
| mathematical understanding of it.
|
| This is analogous to psychology/psychiatry and mental
| illnesses. If we had magical brain oscilloscopes that we
| could hook up to visualize every mental disorder, we'd
| use them. Until those exist, we must rely on qualitative
| and statistical approaches to provide treatment.
|
| [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turbulence
| tediousdemise wrote:
| It amazes me how complex the brain is. We are barely
| equipped with the tools to understand its complexity. An
| article I read earlier today on HN stated that the brain
| contains up to 11-dimensional neural networks. [1]
|
| I think we've been incredibly lucky to have the fields of
| psychology and psychiatry to fill the medical role,
| especially when the quantitative gaps in our understanding
| of the brain seem to be widening.
|
| [1] https://bigthink.com/paul-ratner/our-brains-think-
| in-11-dime...
| tediousdemise wrote:
| Misdiagnosing bipolar disorder as a purely depressive
| disorder can have disastrous consequences, especially if
| prescribed antidepressants instead of mood stabilizers. [1]
|
| [1] https://www.webmd.com/bipolar-
| disorder/news/20100601/bipolar...
| captainredbeard wrote:
| > disastrous consequences, especially if prescribed
| antidepressants
|
| Viewed differently, this speaks to the extreme dangers of
| psychiatric drugs. They should be a tool (vital!) of last
| resort but are often used as a frontline therapy.
| tediousdemise wrote:
| I agree. It should go without saying that you only get
| one brain.
|
| Fundamentally, anything that modulates the brain should
| be used with extreme caution. Although the brain is
| remarkably resilient, sometimes drug-induced changes or
| side effects can be permanent.
|
| For some, this may come as relief, yet for others, they
| may find that the solution was worse than the problem. As
| they say, caveat emptor.
| treeman79 wrote:
| Everything is depression.
|
| Had major brain fog problems. But was generally happy and
| good natured.
|
| Spent years seeking help, at every stage was told it was
| depression.
|
| Turned out it was a horrible disease that was slowing
| killing me.
|
| I imagine a lot of "depressed" people have an underlying
| chronic condition that isn't being addressed.
| anonymouse008 wrote:
| Mind sharing how one could go about testing for this
| condition? (This sounds a bit familiar)
| treeman79 wrote:
| Genetic testing for clotting. Autoimmune work up. Spinal
| tap for pressure.
|
| Make a list every symptom, and what affects your
| symptoms. Take it to every kind of specialist. Then keep
| repeating. Take an advocate. I would explain stuff, could
| see they had mentally written me off. The wife would
| start bawling. This would wake them up, and they would
| dig further.
|
| A neuro-ophthalmologist was reading my list. Looked up
| and declared I had Sjogrens. He was right. Now he missed
| the clotting disorder.
|
| Then have a clot in your lungs. Then you get taken
| seriously. That's when they found factor 5 Leiden.
|
| So between the two my body and mind were trashed.
| cpach wrote:
| Good question.
|
| A unipolar depression is very different from a bipolar
| depression in many regards. E.g. likeliness to eat less vs.
| likeliness to eat more.
|
| And a unipolar depression can possibly be treated and then be
| gone. (If the treatment works out.) If one has bipolar
| disorder, it won't go away. One has to live with it the the
| whole life.
| whalesalad wrote:
| I wish more people thought like this. Treating from first
| principles should be the way - but lately it is not.
| watwut wrote:
| If there is no official diagnosis, would it be ok for
| journalist to amateur diagnose her? Afaik, that is not
| considered acceptable.
| mola wrote:
| That maybe important for a practioiner. But otherwise these
| labels don't have much meaning. Obviously her situation is
| unique. Although it may fall under the umbrella of some DSM
| definition, but the meaning there is only for a medical
| perspective and not "a human perspective". We cannot be reduced
| to some statistical artefact. We may statistically
| significantly share some common traits with other people, but
| it doesn't make us the set of these common traits.
|
| The model is not reality especially so for the DSM, which was
| built in a medically theraputic context. And should be taken as
| such.
| pmoriarty wrote:
| Many therapists use the DSM only for insurance purposes, as
| insurance companies demand an official diagnosis before
| covering treatment. The DSM's role in therapy itself is
| highly questionable.
| guerrilla wrote:
| > But otherwise these labels don't have much meaning.
|
| Hard disagree, the experience of somone with bipolar is a lot
| different than somone who's schizophrenic or only has major
| depression or generalized anxiety. Mania and the specific
| difficulties it causes for psychosis are radically different
| than what the others have to deal with and so is the general
| unpredictability of life (for planning and commitment
| purposes) and especially the types of effects it has on
| relationships. Each of the disorders have totally different
| profiles subjectively and objectively and different things
| they have to deal with. It's definitely not just a
| "statistical artefact" dispite the possibility of multiple
| diseases causing the same symptom clusters.
| [deleted]
___________________________________________________________________
(page generated 2021-05-01 23:02 UTC)