[HN Gopher] Beginner's guide to mechanical keyboards
___________________________________________________________________
Beginner's guide to mechanical keyboards
Author : Jenny1012
Score : 255 points
Date : 2021-04-30 03:23 UTC (19 hours ago)
(HTM) web link (coolgadget.substack.com)
(TXT) w3m dump (coolgadget.substack.com)
| stinkyball wrote:
| I've never experienced membranes wearing out but they sure do get
| extra mushy over time. I guess it's boiling frogs.
| munchbunny wrote:
| My personal experience has been that it's not the membranes
| that wear out first, it's the little plastic feet that hold the
| keys.
| halotrope wrote:
| I had 3 major heureka moments when it comes to productivity
| developing software.
|
| 1. learn to properly touch type
|
| 2. Switch from slow, overheating Macbooks to a watercooled linux
| desktop.
|
| 3. Get a nice mechanical keyboard with cherry brown switches.
| hatchoo wrote:
| Cueious question: What kind of work do you do which requires a
| watercooled setup?
| halotrope wrote:
| Building/Running a heavy cuda accelerated app that taxes
| cpu/gpu very much over long periods of time it helps keeping
| temperature in check and the clocks stable. It is not
| strictly required but makes the while system very quiet and
| stable. If you are e.g training deep learning networks it can
| be almost mandatory if you stack more than 2 high-end GPUs
| into your case.
| maigret wrote:
| Why not doing this on the cloud?
| dvdkon wrote:
| Why complicate your dev setup when you could get a
| powerful desktop (which is also useful for other things)?
| efiecho wrote:
| https://www.gnu.org/philosophy/who-does-that-server-
| really-s...
| tarsinge wrote:
| Touch type was really life changing for me. Also switching from
| French Azerty to Qwerty. It's not about WPM but about staying
| in the flow, I feel directly interfaced with the machine. It's
| a pity to watch colleagues still stoping, looking at their
| hands and doing weird combinations to type very common
| characters like (), {} or [] hundred of times a day.
| internetslave wrote:
| If you're a vim user, hhkb is the keyboard for you
| joeman1000 wrote:
| I sort of agree, but not as much as I agree with: If you're an
| emacs user, HHKB is the keyboard for you. I didn't seem to take
| advantage of the switched CTRL placement when using vim at all,
| which seems like the largest difference between the HHKB and
| other boards.
| thrwaeasddsaf wrote:
| If you're a user, a keyboard with programmable firmware is
| for you. Then your keys are placed where ever you program
| them to be, which can be changed on the fly too.
| arvinsim wrote:
| My only wish is that split mechanical keyboards be commoditized
| and be cheap. Right now, one has to pay a steep premium to get
| those.
| Havoc wrote:
| Recent return to office I understood for the first time why
| people say membrane ones feel squishy. After covid exclusively on
| a mechanical it does indeed feel that way
| [deleted]
| abrowne2 wrote:
| If you like Topre keyboards, the Leopold FC660C is fantastic.
| Really quality build and super comfortable to type on. A lot
| better than HHKB, in my humble opinion :)
| lasagnaphil wrote:
| I bought one about 3 years ago, and I have mixed feelings about
| it. My FC660C was quite wobbly and a bit scratchy, and seems to
| takes quite some force to press (leading to hand fatigue). For
| now I use it as a secondary keyboard, my primary is a Realforce
| R2 (45g, silent) which I like much, much better (although at a
| higher cost and larger form factor).
|
| I'm now thinking about lubing the FC660C though, I've heard
| some people who had incredible results with it. (The typing
| sounds of lubed Topre keys you can listen on Youtube are just
| so heaven-like!)
| philistine wrote:
| Never forget internationalisation. It is _so hard_ to get a
| mechanical keyboard that is not an ANSI US keyboard.
| eric_cc wrote:
| Turn back now - it's a trap!
|
| Mechanical keyboards can be a serious rabbit hole :)
| ggambetta wrote:
| I honestly don't understand the fascination with keyboards. For
| as long as I can remember, I've always used the cheapest keyboard
| I can find on Amazon, usually around $10. I've written software,
| books and movies on shitty keyboards. What's a fancy keyboard
| supposed to give me?
|
| Much like the quality of a photographer is quite independent of
| their camera (in fact, the easiest way to insult a photographer
| is to tell them _" wow, what a beautiful picture, what camera do
| you have?"_ ), I don't see how a keyboard can make any difference
| in the quality of the stuff I make. What am I missing?
| taneq wrote:
| A nice mechanical keyboard is _nice_ , especially to touch type
| on. It's only going to improve your writing in the sense that
| you'll be in a better headspace when you write because you're
| using a nice keyboard, but then how many hours a day do you
| spend typing? Is it not worth spending them typing on something
| you actually enjoy using?
|
| The quality of a photographer may be independent of their
| camera but I guarantee professional photographers don't use
| cheap shitty cameras.
|
| Edit: Tradition dictates a car analogy, so - when I bought my
| first car I couldn't understand why people thought disk brakes
| were better. I mean, you can lock the wheels with drum brakes
| so they're equivalent, right? Then when I got my second car
| with all-round disk brakes I was retrospectively horrified that
| I'd ever trusted my first car's brakes with anything.
|
| Of course, a year later when I was more confident and started
| testing the limits of my second car, I found out the difference
| between disk brakes and racing brakes...
| jonathanstrange wrote:
| Generally speaking (there are always exceptions), mechanical
| keyboards are one of those things that you cannot live without
| any more once you use them. Before that, it's hard to see a
| point, but going back from a good mechanical to a mushy
| keyboard is hard.
|
| Typing is just more fun on them. It's similar to having a
| favorite coffee mug for drinking coffee.
| chevill wrote:
| >What's a fancy keyboard supposed to give me?
|
| If you want a standard keyboard with a standard layout or
| something similar, a cheap rubber dome keyboard is going to
| work just as well as my $600 keyboard. If that's the type of
| keyboard you want, the reason people like them is because they
| think they sound nicer, feel nicer, and in many cases look
| nicer. They also have better built quality and people
| appreciate well-built things.
|
| However, there are also situations where people are getting
| tangible benefits from mechanical keyboards. Some people don't
| have much desk space, so you can get a smaller keyboard and
| save room. It also makes them more portable if you feel like
| taking it with you.
|
| Another tangible benefit is programmability and the use of
| layers. Some people work faster and more efficiently with a
| smaller keyboard with multiple layers. Another reason to use
| layers is for different use cases. I can have one layer
| programmed with a bunch of hotkeys for Photoshop, another layer
| for just normal typing/computer use, and another layer setup
| for gaming.
|
| Another thing to consider is ergonomics. I 3d printed a case
| for a Dactyl Manuform and hand-wired my own customized, split
| ergonomic keyboard. After switching to it, the tendonitis in my
| wrist cleared up.
|
| So, there is value to be found. However a lot of the people
| that want mechanical keyboards just want something that feels
| like it is a quality device. If that's what you're looking for,
| you can get something that will likely be the nicest keyboard
| you've ever used for $200 or less. Once you get to the $500+
| mark for an entire build, you are venturing into the territory
| where its more of a fashion accessory. People want cases made
| by certain designers and while in some cases they have better
| features or are machined to a higher standard, you quickly run
| into diminishing returns.
|
| IMO if someone wants to get into mechanical keyboards, its hard
| to beat the standard model of GMMK keyboards for the price. You
| can get it for $60 without switches or keycaps. At that point
| pay $30-40 for Box Jade switches if you like clicky switches,
| $70-100 for zeal helios switches if you like smooth linear
| switches, or $50 for aliaz 70g tactile switches if you like MX
| browns. After that spend $30-50 on a cheap but decent PBT
| keycap set. Finally, do about 10 minutes worth of simple
| modifications to the keyboard and you'll end up with something
| that gets you 95% of the value you'd get out of a $2000
| keyboard at 1/10th of the price.
|
| https://github.com/abstracthat/dactyl-manuform
| mech422 wrote:
| GMMK boards are surprisingly nice for the money... the new
| 'elite' looks to have taken it up a notch too.
|
| I originally got one, as it was hotswap and almost as cheap
| as a switch tester. But it compares well with say my Ducky.
| ycombinete wrote:
| How do they compare to Keychron?
| chevill wrote:
| >the new 'elite' looks to have taken it up a notch too.
|
| I got their new "Pro" as a secondary keyboard. Its really
| nice, however, unlike most of the reviewers I didn't like
| the polycarbonate plate. I put the stock aluminum one back
| into it because the polycarbonate one flexes so much the
| contacts on the switches won't stay in the sockets. Still
| once that issue was resolved its a great keyboard with a
| ton of cool features at a pretty affordable price
| (relatively).
|
| >I originally got one, as it was hotswap and almost as
| cheap as a switch tester. But it compares well with say my
| Ducky.
|
| My original standard GMMK ended up being a better keyboard
| than my first custom kit I spend over $300 on. For some
| reason my linear switches felt smoother on it, I had less
| issues, and the build quality was solid enough.
| jeromenerf wrote:
| Nothing a Leica rangefinder would have given you if you were
| not a photo journalist in the late 50s.
|
| A "special" keyboard can offer you a lot if you have an itch to
| scratch. Typing faster, relieving pain, automating sequences,
| enjoying the clicks, fast focus in low light, no mirror
| vibration in low light conditions, compact package,
| ruggedness...
|
| As a side note, photographers are really picky about their gear
| :)
| hrnnnnnn wrote:
| It's about ergonomics. To me, a mechanical keyboard is more
| comfortable to type on.
|
| I actually chose the camera I use for a similar reason. It
| doesn't have the fanciest electronics, but it has all the
| important controls on physical dials which make it more
| pleasant to use.
| Veen wrote:
| I enjoy typing on a mechanical keyboard. It's a pleasant
| tactile experience. That's all. No big performance or
| cognititive benefit, but why does there need be?
|
| It's the same reason I have a plant on my desk. I like to look
| at it. It doesn't make me smarter, but that doesn't mean
| watering it is a waste of time.
| nomand wrote:
| The thing you touch and interact with every day, better be
| beautiful and bring you joy, whether through aesthetics,
| tactile feel, personalized function, or whatever else, hencewhy
| "custom" is the keyword here. Nothing to do with quality of
| your typing or the work. You don't opt out for the cheapest
| possible decor because it "does the job", your environment
| affects the way you feel and this is just one ways to express
| one's own.
| 12ian34 wrote:
| Ignorance is bliss - and I genuinely don't mean this in a
| negative way. I was perfectly happy with my cheap keyboard
| until I got tempted into a mechanical and now I love it. But
| it's great to be happy with what you have. Desire can be a
| source of unhappiness!
| laichzeit0 wrote:
| This is the usual complaint I hear from people that have never
| used a mechanical keyboard before.
| kohlerm wrote:
| There several reasons, some of them make logical sense, others
| don't ;-) Some people for example try to optimize
| ergonomics/efficiency. There is in my experience a lot of
| overlap with people liking mechanical keyboards (and if it is
| only for the feel of them ) and people trying to optimize
| keyboard layouts by using some advanced firmware such as
| https://docs.qmk.fm.
| brobdingnagians wrote:
| I have RSI in my wrists; going from the normal average
| keyboards I'd used my entire life to a mechanical keyboard was
| like having my fingers slide on butter. It feels a lot better;
| less impact on my fingers, don't have to bottom out. It is also
| nice while playing games to get the key to register half way,
| can jam keys much faster.
| goatinaboat wrote:
| _I 've always used the cheapest keyboard I can find on Amazon,
| usually around $10. I've written software, books and movies on
| shitty keyboards. What's a fancy keyboard supposed to give me?_
|
| I could feel the early onset of what could have become full
| blown carpal tunnel early in my career; since switching to
| mechanicals I have had absolutely zero problems. A Cherry
| keyboard isn't that expensive and will last forever. For me it
| is a very worthwhile investment in my health and the longevity
| of my career.
| edpichler wrote:
| It's special because it's the main output interface between
| your mind and the network. You spend many days of your life on
| this device. It doesn't need to be cheap, for the same reason
| that the shoes of the professional football player does not
| need to be cheap, he could also score with bare foot.
| Uberphallus wrote:
| No offense, but, do you touch type?
|
| It will depend on the switch, but personally on cherry blues
| and browns I can type while looking away from the keyboard (or
| screen) with basically 0 typos. On cheap keyboards either I
| type harder (and slower) on purpose to be sure or I just miss
| keystrokes randomly.
|
| I can get by with a rubber dome keyboard by if I just write
| comments like this one, or light office work, where I see
| immediately what I type, but certain tasks don't have visual
| feedback (or you just look elsewhere).
|
| In my case, using Vim in normal mode (command chains aren't
| usually seen until they execute), taking notes off
| meetings/presentations, doing translation work, adapting code
| snippets from elsewhere, and refactoring code benefit greatly
| from touch typing.
| approxim8ion wrote:
| Not OP, but I do touch-type fairly accurately at around
| 85-95wpm, even on cheapo keyboards. I don't _like_ it, but
| mechs are hard to find and expensive where I am.
| input_sh wrote:
| > but mechs are hard to find and expensive where I am.
|
| Same, but you might want to look into "gamer keyboards",
| those are usually easier to find. I ended up buying one of
| those from Razer (this one: https://www.razer.com/gaming-
| keyboards/Razer-Huntsman-Tourna...) that serves the purpose
| just fine and I can't say I have any complaints. (Though I
| obviously have no point of reference on how it compares
| with other mechanical keyboards.)
|
| Pretty sure I could shave off $50 of the price of a new one
| and resell it to some teenager if I ever wanted to.
| ben7799 wrote:
| It's based on a false belief that the feel of these keyboards
| actually translates into a better experience and is less
| damaging on the hands/fingers.
|
| There's no proof it's true. It never holds up in studies, and
| if it was really true these KBs would have stayed mainstream
| dominant.
|
| It's a weird internet subculture, just like lots of other
| stuff. It's about having something fancy and/or unique and
| showing it to the world.
| alpaca128 wrote:
| > Much like the quality of a photographer is quite independent
| of their camera
|
| And yet you'll have a really hard time finding a professional
| photographer using a cheap compact camera or their iPad to do
| their work. Just like you'll rarely see a professional
| developer writing code in Notepad.
|
| I can type just as fast on a standard $10 keyboard as on my
| custom one. But on mine I can type more accurately, more
| comfortably for much longer periods, I can change the layout at
| any time as it's fully programmable, and at the same time it
| feels nicer. Why would I not use it?
| 112233 wrote:
| Most of these points already have been mentioned (e.g.
| ergonomics. My hands _stopped hurting_ after switch to kinesis
| advantage. (but bevare of the so called "ergonomic" keyboards
| that actually are not)) There is anothe use case for fancy
| keyboards: a keyboard made for specific application. I you
| spend most of your work time in ProTools / Resolve / InDesign
| / expensive CAD, then an extended keyboard makes a lot of
| sense. A related example is the majority of cash registers:
| those apple/banana key grids? They are likely a programmable
| computer keyboard! Those are cheap and not "fancy", though...
| TheRealDunkirk wrote:
| I owned a used, but lovingly cared for, Volvo S80 T60. It was a
| magical car. The ride, the handling, the power, the comfort,
| the stereo. Everything about it was better than my current
| Honda Accord. My wife couldn't tell the difference in any of
| these things in driving it, or at least didn't care. It's a
| stretch, but I can imagine that undiscerning people could think
| a $10 membrane keyboard is fine. Statistics say those people
| should exist. What I can't understand is why anyone would want
| to spend even 5 minutes typing on one of those external Mac
| "magic" keyboards. They are truly terrible. Yet I know multiple
| people who prefer them over anything else. It just goes to show
| that you can't account for taste.
| bloopernova wrote:
| I used to use Mac keyboards because I wanted to minimize the
| difference in typing feel between using the laptop keyboard
| and using the external keyboard. I thought I was used to that
| and would never want to use a mechanical keyboard, because I
| thought I valued very small "travel" in the keys. I quickly
| found that I actually really liked both the tactile feel and
| somewhat low audible click of the Cherry Browns.
|
| So I sort of moved from thinking I liked laptop keyboards,
| and hated mechanical ones, to appreciating the qualities of a
| good mechanical keyboard.
|
| I used a mechanical keyboard (mk for short here on out) for a
| while after being loaned one by a Mechanical Keyboard Zealot
| coworker. (he was actually super laid back, and would just
| lend out keyboards to people :) )
|
| After that I bought a Corsair keyboard because I wanted to
| get a mk as easily as possible and didn't want to try to
| decode the mk subreddit. Then that started to "break" (just
| needed cleaning, whoops, I gave it to my nephew to go with
| his parents' xmas present of a gaming PC) and I got myself a
| Ducky mk.
|
| I also tried the ErgoDox but was getting frustrated with it
| during a crunch time at work, and put it aside for the ducky.
| One day I want to try the split keyboard again.
| llimllib wrote:
| I'm currently typing on a keychron keyboard that I like well
| enough to use instead of the magic keyboard, but I'm more
| accurate and faster on the magic keyboard.
|
| As a bonus, the magic keyboard's lower profile means that I
| don't have to use a wrist rest when I use it, unlike all of
| my mechanicals, even though I've got the lowest profile
| available mechanical.
|
| They're extremely well engineered keyboards not worthy of
| your hate.
| TheRealDunkirk wrote:
| Well, the lack of a need for a wrist rest is a good point
| I'd never considered. I have nice foam rests for all my
| mechs.
| squaredisk wrote:
| Monitor size and keyboard are far more important than the
| process speed in my experience. The bottleneck is never the
| processor speed or even RAM, but mostly the human working
| memory and cognitive capacity. Bigger monitor helps the former
| and good keyboard helps the latter with less typos.
| uzakov wrote:
| One of the reasons people might spend time on keyboards is
| health ie to combat the carpal tunner syndrom.
| lolive wrote:
| Remapping your keys (with .Xmodmap or Autohotkey) is imho a
| must-have. Doing that at hardware level with QMK sounds a
| pretty good alternative.
| dxdm wrote:
| But what cameras do professional photographers choose, and why?
| cryptos wrote:
| For me it is just more fun to write on a mechanical keyboard.
| I've never measured it, but I think that I'm writing a bit
| faster on it. But anyway, there is no other reason for me than
| that I like the the feeling, the sound and the mechanical
| quality. It's like drinking good wine.
| lewisflude wrote:
| I design mechanical keyboards! It's an expensive process.
| Prototypes typically cost $400-1000, and you absolutely must do
| an aluminium/brass/steel cnc prototype before you do a sale. 3D
| printed protos can help with fitiment though.
|
| Experimenting with materials, finish and functionality (mount
| system etc.) is a very exciting processs.
|
| Learning to design the last couple of years has been a
| fascinating experience. I now do semi-regular sales of ultra-high
| end keyboards that people seem to really enjoy.
|
| The one weird aspect, is you typically see keyboards go for 4-5x
| the price of sale on the aftermarket.
|
| It's not uncommon to see keyboards for sale for $3000-7000
| nowadays. I think there is a bit of a "hypebeast" culture around
| it all.
| [deleted]
| archi42 wrote:
| Any resources you can point people too? I'm planning on doing a
| small custom built, but find deciding on north vs south
| orientation difficult.
| janfoeh wrote:
| Fascinating! So you design the whole shebang, including
| keycaps?
|
| Maybe you're the person to ask: I've been thinking about
| switching back to a mechanical keyboard, but I am looking for a
| specific keycap form I haven't been able to find so far.
|
| If I cannot find these off the shelf somewhere - how realistic
| and achievable is it to have these custom-made for me
| specifically?
|
| By the way, what I am looking for is a square base with a
| recessed "mesa" - either rounded like the old
| Nixdorf/Siemens/Fujitsu KBPC S [1], or completely round like
| this vintage Nixdorf [2] or the Teenage Engineering OP-1 [3].
|
| So if you or anyone else reading this has a pointer, I'd be
| grateful.
|
| [1] http://www.notebook-
| service.biz/bilder/Tastatur/Siemens/Tast... [2]
| https://i.ebayimg.com/00/s/MTA2NlgxNjAw/z/icUAAOSwBoxeB1t4/$...
| [3] https://teenage.engineering/products/op-1
| robinj6 wrote:
| "Beginners Guide" para 2: 2KRO, 3KRO...
|
| Lemme go Google these terms so I can make it through my beginners
| guide.
| offtop5 wrote:
| Once upon a Time I worked at a job where one of the employees was
| using a very old yellowing keyboard. I asked him why and he said
| that's what they gave him.
|
| I almost felt the dejection in his voice, as in without a good
| keyboard he would never be a truly great employee. But at the
| same time he was at the company for a decade and never really got
| a raise.
|
| For me, assuming the company doesn't have a policy against it
| I'll go out and buy a $200 keyboard just to get into the zone. I
| feel like I'm much more productive after investing that much. But
| this goes into my philosophy on jobs in general, your boss is
| never trying to improve your skill set. He or she only wants you
| to know just enough to do your job, in fact they'd probably
| prefer you remain too stupid to leave.
| have_faith wrote:
| I tried a mech but then I went back to the old full sized apple
| keyboard released in 2007 (A1243) for programming, I like the
| scissor switches. It would be perfect for me if the numpad was
| chopped off.
| lasagnaphil wrote:
| Yeah, I remember using one of those at school when I was young,
| and it was one of the best keyboards I've used. It's a shame
| that recent Apple keyboards feel like shit (incredibly shallow
| switches, almost feels like typing on glass, my fingers
| physically hurt after using it for a long time)
| arunc wrote:
| > Mechanical keyboards are ideal for programmers and fast typists
|
| Don't fall for this hype. I've used mechanical keyboards for over
| 20 years and switched to non-mechanical 6 years ago. My typing
| has been never fast. You don't have to push/raise your fingers
| all the way down/up when you hit the key or when you release the
| the key respectively. That adds to the latency as well. The
| flatter the keyboard the faster it is - of course coupled with
| the actual mechanics of the keyboard. But mechanical keyboard?
| Not anymore for me!
| gorgoiler wrote:
| Good start, but your are missing a few things too. For example
| the culture of mechanical keyboards, or more importantly how that
| affects buying them for the first time and, when the time
| eventually comes, replacements.
|
| Want to be able to replace your keyboard, or get another one for
| the office easily? Buy a Cherry G80-3000.
|
| Want to get used to something only to find it's incredibly hard
| to find a second one that matches your muscle memory? Get an RGB
| Vortex racer 3 pro or an AKKO3068 with a custom run of SA double
| shot hello sushi keycaps in limited edition dat boi green.
|
| Want something that you can place in a backpack and not cry about
| when one of the 1000 tiny little bits of plastic -- all of which
| are critical to the keyboard operation -- snaps off as you pull
| it out? Keychron K1 or one of its siblings. (And this isn't a
| slur on the K1's build quality -- all keyboards are, by their
| nature, delicate devices.)
|
| I own all of the above and more. That's not a flex. I'm an idiot.
| If I did it all again I'd buy a six pack of K1s and stop there.
| Unrelated: can I borrow some money?
|
| (You have a typo fyi: "there are mainly four types of switches:
| black, _brown_ , green, and brown".)
| jabroni_salad wrote:
| Some things in favor of the keychron:
|
| 1. Wireless is kind of a rarity in the MKB landscape
|
| 2. It's one of the more inexpensive hot-swappable boards out
| there, which is a stellar feature if you want to try different
| switches but dont want to buy an entire new keyboard.
| Jedd wrote:
| Can confirm - Keychron didn't even come up on my initial
| searches a few years ago for mechanical + wireless, and I
| ended up with a couple (work, home) of the Logitech G613.
|
| These are good, solid devices, with a nice response - however
| both are starting to give me double characters on some keys.
| I'm wary about popping the tops on the keys, and so far some
| good thumps / blowing out around the affected keys has
| resolved the problems. However, reviews around the net
| suggest this is a problem that tends to get worse with this
| model.
|
| The Keychron is now on my shortlist once these Logitechs are
| unusable.
| thrwaeasddsaf wrote:
| All mechanical switches are prone to bounce and oxidation.
| You can try contact cleaner or switch replacement (some
| keyboards have slotted switches that can be replaced
| without soldering).
|
| Consider next a keyboard with programmable firmware (QMK)
| so you can adjust and mitigate bounce in software.
| Jedd wrote:
| Noted, thank you - but a quick search suggests Keychron
| isn't in that category. On the other hand, they have
| replaceable caps that are (individually) quite cheap.
|
| I'm 6-12 months away from a follow-up purchase, but will
| tag QMK options for the next search.
| vertis wrote:
| I was not even remotely convinced that I would find a
| mechanical keyboard to be a superior option 6 months ago. But
| I was frustrated after my Apple Magic Keyboard 2 died. It was
| probably even under warranty, but mid-pandemic that was
| unapproachable.
|
| A friend recommended Keychron. After 6 months of using the
| K1, I'm not sure I could ever go back. I've bought a case for
| carrying it around, because as another comment mentions the
| keycaps are prone to coming off in my bag.
|
| I have the red low-profile switches, and they're not as quiet
| as a membrane keyboard, but they're not loud enough to annoy
| the only other person I share a work/living space with, so
| that's all that matters.
|
| The wireless is definitely an important feature for me as
| well. My Macbook Pro is already a dongle party without
| needing to plug a keyboard in as well.
|
| It's not as low-profile as the Magic Keyboard 2, but it's a
| tradeoff that I'm prepared to accept. It's well and truly
| earned it's place in my backpack.
| vladvasiliu wrote:
| I have K2 which I bought for the form factor (75%, 84 key,
| laptop-like, etc).
|
| It works fairly well for me, but I find it needs a wrist
| rest.
|
| However, I would love for there to be a "autonomous" wireless
| option. Bluetooth works OK on both my MBP and Linux laptop.
| But I can't use it fully under Linux, since I have full-disk
| encryption and so need a keyboard during the early boot
| stages. Also, my main computer doesn't have Bluetooth...
|
| All in all I'm not disappointed, I wasn't looking for a
| wireless keyboard and knew it was bluetooth only.
| BoorishBears wrote:
| In my opinion any modern guide that frames switches in terms of
| Cherry MX flavors is doing people a disservice. Double so for
| calling them "the gold standard"...
|
| Gone are the days of Cherry having the only quality switches,
| now they're just mediocre slightly over-expensive switches.
|
| Stuff like T1s, anything Gazzew puts out, etc. are not much
| more (or even cheaper) but give a much more enjoyable
| experience. Actuation point, tactile bump, and spring weight
| are three very easy to explain concepts that let someone go out
| and find a switch that's perfect for them
| m_eiman wrote:
| I'm waiting for the Nordic layout K1 (brown switches) to appear
| to try a mechanical keyboard for the first time, good to hear
| their build quality is acceptable (been reading some online
| reviews, and some people seem to have issues with Keychron
| boards).
| fifteenforty wrote:
| Can you suggest one that might pair well with the Contour
| RollerMouse Red?
|
| I both love and hate this mouse. It's fixed my RSI but it has
| been unreliable and limited keyboard choices. Also, I can hear
| coil whine when I use it wirelessly!
| aidenn0 wrote:
| Wow; I hadn't seen keychron before, but I just may get a C1.
| I've been looking to switch to a tenkeyless.
|
| Is it really $50 for a hotswap with double shot keycaps and a
| set of switches?
| trurl42 wrote:
| _Want to be able to replace your keyboard, or get another one
| for the office easily? Buy a Cherry G80-3000._
|
| The G80-3000 comes without NKRO, a very bendable case and PCB-
| mounted rather than plate-mounted switches.
|
| A Leopold (for example) is much more pleasant to use and not so
| exotic that it's impossible to obtain a replacement.
| cliftonk wrote:
| the switches and general feel of this keyboard is the best of any
| mechanical ive used (i have about 8 high-end mechanicsl ive gone
| through). its also much lower to the desk so i dont get wrist
| aches or need a wrist rest.
|
| HAVIT HBKV390L Kailh low profile blue switches
|
| https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0722GG88M
| [deleted]
| weavie wrote:
| For me it's not so important that the keys are mechanical, but
| that it is split. It is so much more pleasant to type with my
| hands straight out in front of me than cramped together in the
| centre. The fact that most split keyboards are mechanical is just
| a, slightly pleasant, side effect.
| kumarsw wrote:
| I see a lot of all-or-nothing type comments here. Remember folks,
| there is a middle ground between a $300+ Ergodox and the $15
| Amazon basics special. I use a Pok3r I got on eBay used for $80,
| they run about $120 new. It's certainly worth the $65-$105 over
| the cheapie given I use it during working hours every day.
| hokumguru wrote:
| Novelkeys NK65 entry edition is ~$100 and is another great
| alternative for someone looking for a great experience.
| tdsamardzhiev wrote:
| I like pressing the switches. No mush. Feels good. That's all
| there is to it, in my experience. Compared to my laptop, it makes
| zero difference with regards to typing speed and arthritis. But
| yeah, I like it.
| rcarmo wrote:
| Not really into the switches themselves, but have been looking
| into 40% ortholinears and realized there are comparatively few
| Bluetooth mechanicals out there, which I find strange.
| firekvz wrote:
| Mechkebs are fun, been an user for years, right now sitting on a
| 1.5k build from 2018
|
| I enjoyed the hobby, not amymore
|
| Since around 2016, the money grab situation became a joke, it all
| started with Drop (former massdrop) and it all went downhill.. i
| get that the community was really small and we were forced to use
| forums to organize drops and so on.. but now the community is by
| the milliions and stuff are even more expensive than before..
| Fake "limited supply", copies of copies of switches that at the
| end offer no difference, same old keycaps vendors that have
| months if not years of intentionally delayed orders to justify
| their insane pricing, US/EU resellers of china pieces for 1000%
| margins, hidding inventory, snob creators, corruption in raffles,
| people being hyped by snob 'keyboard celebrities', censure in
| discords servers when you bring this up and i could go for hours
| with this list
|
| It just sad...
| lycopodiopsida wrote:
| I am into the mechkebs as a hobby (have a KA2, Kyria, Model01,
| Redox and parts for Dactyl Manuform laying around) but it the
| first time I've ever heard of Drop, fwiw.
|
| I think that mechanical keyboards are an interesting (if
| expensive) hobby, but standard keyboards with only mechanical
| switches and and funny keycaps are too expensive for what they
| are providing. They are a bit nicer to type with, but switches
| are in general not the problem of a keyboard. The layout and
| ergonomics are.
|
| You have to switch to an ortholinear split with a firmware to
| see how different the ergonomics of a keyboard can be if we
| push it further and do non let legacy drive our decisions.
| CiceroCiceronis wrote:
| It's interesting you mention this, as I (somebody who has
| always used basic keyboards) just recently bought a split
| ortholinear mechanical keyboard for this exact reason.
| Curious to see what the experience is like.
|
| The ideals of improved ergonomics and typing efficiency were
| much more interesting to me than fancy keycaps... but looking
| cross-sectionally at the keyboard space while researching my
| purchase, I found that the opposite was mostly true in terms
| of what attracted the most attention. Strange.
| lycopodiopsida wrote:
| >looking cross-sectionally at the keyboard space while
| researching my purchase, I found that the opposite was
| mostly true in terms of what attracted the most attention.
| Strange.
|
| It is not that strange - people who aim for ergonomic
| builds are a small community of an already small (if
| increasing) community. Most people do not want something
| like a new keyboard to mess too much with their motor
| memory.
| sethammons wrote:
| That fits for me. I got two mechanical keyboards at the
| same time. One mirrors the Microsoft Ergo: cloud nine.
| The other is unique in the layout: ergodox ez. On this,
| my typing speed dropped to a third of normal. With the
| cloud nine, i typed at full speed minute one. The twice
| as expensive ergodox ez sits in my closet.
| andrewzah wrote:
| In my experience it doesn't take very long on a new
| keyboard set or even a new layout entirely before one
| gets fairly up to speed. When I built my Lets Split v2
| ortholinear, I put dvorak on it and getting up to speed
| was surprisingly fast.
|
| The ergonomic reasons behind the lets split/ergodox make
| them quite worthwhile. I love my HHKB2 but a split
| keyboard in general feels much better for my posture.
| jk7tarYZAQNpTQa wrote:
| > I think that mechanical keyboards are an interesting (if
| expensive) hobby
|
| I'd love to own a mk, but I don't because I refuse to pay the
| huge markup just because "it's mechanical!". I'm typing this
| comment on a decades old Logitech K120 that's even missing
| some keycaps, that cost me, what, 10 bucks? But you're
| telling me I can't find a ultra basic key caps set for under
| $20 because...? "Hey, this Ducky is tacky but doesn't look
| that bad, how much is it?" $125? Go duck yourself.
|
| The scene is completely nuts, there's no space left for
| people who just want to type on a mk, it's all about
| exclusivity, "the endgame", limited editions, artisan caps...
| Bullshit. There's no "mechanical K120". There's no room left
| for full sized, affordable, practical, run of the mill, "Ford
| Model T" mk. So thanks, and good riddance. I'll just buy
| another K120. I could pay $20, even $40, for "a good feel",
| but it's not worth $100.
|
| Imagine the same scene on mice. "Hey, are you tired of your
| ball mouse? Want an optical mouse? Well, the technology is
| cheap, but we're going to charge you $120, just because!!"
|
| I don't want a mk as a hobby, I want it as a tool. But it
| looks like we're incapable of conceptualizing a mk as a tool.
| Sorry for the rant, and pardon my French.
| piaste wrote:
| > Imagine the same scene on mice. "Hey, are you tired of
| your ball mouse? Want an optical mouse? Well, the
| technology is cheap, but we're going to charge you $120,
| just because!!"
|
| My, I better not tell you what a MX Master, G903 or Kone
| Pro Air retails for...
|
| That said, I think you're asking too much if you expect a
| mk to cost about the same as a membrane keyboard; I think a
| 2x-3x price increase is totally reasonable considering that
| a membrane keyboard is trivial to assemble compared to one
| made of 102 individual switches, and that the production
| scale is so vastly different.
|
| On the other side, I'm typing this on a Lenovo keyboard
| that's technically a membrane but it's so sturdy and clicky
| it feels pretty close to the brown-switch Cooler Master I
| have at home (which was definitely a cheaper mech, I think
| I paid $65 or so for it).
| tartoran wrote:
| I own just one mechanical keyboard and it's my daily
| driver, when I type lot I plug it in and off I go,
| otherwise I'm fine with the not so good-to-type-alot laptop
| keyboards. Mechanical keyboards are a good investment if
| you don't go overboard and become obsessed with them. They
| do offer a very good feedback and are pleasant to type on.
| My typing error rate is the lowest on my mechanical
| keyboard, and I guess that says quite a bit. My mechkeb is
| a Leopold FC750R and couldn't be happier with my purchase,
| which i expect I will own for quite some time.
| jk7tarYZAQNpTQa wrote:
| Thanks for the input, I'll check it out.
| lycopodiopsida wrote:
| I think a lot of the interesting keyboards are really small
| series, and such things cost - there is such thing as
| "economy of scale".
|
| The cheapest KB I've built myself was a Kyria for just over
| 200 EUR with cheap keycaps but relatively expensive
| switches - Kailh Pink, as I remember. Imagine building
| something like Keyboardio Model01 (https://shop.keyboard.io
| /products/model-01-keyboard?variant=...): You have to build
| a case in low numbers, you have to design and print the PCB
| boards, you have to order the switches (Jesse, the author
| of it told once, that Cherry was not even interested in
| talking to him due to the relatively low number of switches
| he could take off them) and you still have to solder and
| assemble it, which for small shops is a manual job. Even
| the most mass-produced ergonomic keyboard I know if,
| Kineses Advantage2 is still a very niche product.
|
| So all the "endgame" photos of another 60% KB with
| "artisan" keycaps and expensive pre-lubed switches are
| indeed bullshit. But you can get a lot of gain out of it if
| you go for ergonomic keyboards, even if you get the
| cheapest switches and keycaps (gatreon, for example)
| because the ergonomic improvement you can get out of a
| keywell or a proper thumb cluster can be life changing.
| Especially if you have a predisposition for developing RSI
| or similar problems. But it will still not be cheap. Or you
| can buy one and stick to it, you don't have to do it as
| hobby. Buy a Kinesis Advantage and do not worry that much.
| If you later want to mode it, there are still multiple
| possibilities.
|
| Your French is fine! :)
| sethammons wrote:
| Check out cloud nine. Full sized, split mechanical, and
| looks near identical to the Microsoft Ergo 4000. I typed
| full speed immediately. Still pricey, but feels like a tool
| to me.
| phowat wrote:
| I'm typing this on an Ajazz Ak33 which I've owned for
| several years and it's still working perfectly fine. You
| can find it for less than $30 on aliexpress. There are
| quite a few options of mechanical keyboards for less than
| $50 .
| eertami wrote:
| >There's no room left for full sized, affordable,
| practical, run of the mill, "Ford Model T" mk.
|
| I bought a boring (by mk community standards) Filco
| Majestouch in 2010. I think it was around that $125 price
| point, but you know what, it is at least 10 times better
| than the keyboard I had before it and costs less than 4c
| per day. I wouldn't even be surprised if this thing lasted
| another 10 years.
|
| Personally I don't understand why people spend thousands of
| dollars on new PC hardware just to use a 10$ mouse and
| keyboard. Of course people are free to prioritize whatever
| they want, and I'm not suggesting everyone should have DIY
| custom $400+ keyboards, but if you put a 10 year old K120
| infront of me with missing keycaps, I'd be measurably
| unhappy while trying to use my computer.
| mohaine wrote:
| I bought 2 of these in tenkeyless (for work and home) and
| both are still in great shape. I did switch to Kinesis at
| work about a year later but is 9-10 years of daily use
| and they all look almost identical to when new.
|
| Finding a keyboard you like is expensive but once you do
| they pretty much last forever. At work the Kinesis has
| outlasted 5 MacBooks and serval PCs. It is by far the
| cheapest computer peripheral when time of use is
| considered.
| munchbunny wrote:
| These days you can get solid mechanical switch keyboards
| in the $60 to $100 range. The only downside is that they
| all seem to come with LED backlighting and obnoxious
| gamer marketing, but once you turn off the light shows
| they're perfectly good keyboards. I think they would
| qualify for "Model T" status.
|
| They have mechanical switches but often lack N-key
| rollover (I think the blog post gets this wrong) and
| instead have a watered down form marketed as "anti-
| ghosting". But that's more than enough for all purposes
| except maybe Emacs olympics and social prestige with
| keyboard-philes.
|
| I bought a Filco Majestouch 2 three years ago when I
| finally had to retire my 8 year old Sidewinder X4, which
| was a $40 membrane keyboard with deeper-than-usual key
| travel. I can definitely say moving from that to the
| Majestouch 2 has not made me a better programmer, typist,
| or gamer. And it hasn't helped with ergonomics either. It
| just feels better the same way shelling out the extra
| couple hundred bucks for a high end graphics card makes
| games feel better.
|
| I owned an actually ergonomic split-key keyboard as well
| (Goldtouch) when I developed RSI-related wrist problems
| as a teenager and kept it around for 15 years. That
| keyboard made an actual difference and I would take it
| out of the closet whenever my wrists started acting up
| even from the Majestouch 2. But you don't usually see
| ergonomics front and center in super expensive mechanical
| keyboards - because IMO in that price range and in that
| community it hasn't been about practical concerns for a
| while. And that's fine - I'm not going to judge someone's
| choice of things to collect - but I see no practical
| benefit to spending substantially more on mechanical
| keyboards.
| TheRealDunkirk wrote:
| Six or seven years ago, I was very active on
| /r/mechanicalkeyboards. I think it was basically those folks
| who MADE it all a joke.
|
| The GOOD news, though, is that the surge in popularity has made
| a lot of decent, inexpensive mech's available on Amazon and
| AliExpress.
|
| All that being said, I love my WASD CODE's.
| kps wrote:
| Not to mention destroying vintage computers because they only
| want the keyboard.
| the_only_law wrote:
| This one has always annoyed me and _really_ annoys some
| people I know. I had the opportunity to buy a DisplayWriter
| (full system) a few years ago and when doing research on it
| was horrified to find out it was popular to gut the keyboard
| and replace the circuitry with a modern custom keyboard
| controller.
| hardwaregeek wrote:
| I've learned that with all the mechanical-head-pens hobbies
| that it's best to read a little, decide on one good enough
| product, and stick with it. Stop reading the forums, stop
| second guessing yourself, just be happy with what you chose.
|
| I settled on a Code keyboard with MX Clears. It's durable,
| useful and I'm happy with it. Sure I could upgrade but there's
| little to no reason.
|
| Same with headphones. I gave up on all the fancy audio and use
| AirPods. Yes, they sound worse. Yes, Bluetooth hurts audio
| quality. But who cares?
|
| For most of these hobbies the benefit you get from your first
| purchase will never be replicated. From there it's all
| diminishing returns.
| eirki wrote:
| This is very good advice. It's often so tempting to get on
| that threadmill after making the first purchase.
| tasuki wrote:
| How much does bluetooth hurt audio quality?
| baybal2 wrote:
| What makes it a problem to orders switches yourself?
|
| Mechanical switches are not a rocket science, and any
| electromechanical OEM would've been happy to work on them with
| such premiums.
|
| I myself been thinking of ordering double action switches, so
| you don't need debouncing them. I even contemplated adding some
| ultra low power latches to be overmolded inside, so you get a
| single output out of the box.
| spamizbad wrote:
| I love how Cherry Browns became declasse key switches, due to
| their popularity and everyone ran to the other extreme
| (extremely stiff tactile switches) and are now running back to
| the other extreme (softer tactile switches like the Browns)
| with special lube and keyfilms to improve their sound and
| subtle typing feel.
| jeromenerf wrote:
| I have never been interested in the "online community" part of
| this mk fad but I have been happy to buy off the shelves from
| hhkb maybe 20 years ago, the Unicom, then EZ/sza. It's
| expensive for sure but there are functioning suppliers for
| quality boards.
| Antoninus wrote:
| Agreed, this is my experience as well. Like most _things_ ,
| find 1 that you like and use it for a long time. For me it
| happened to be the HHKB Pro 2.
| goatinaboat wrote:
| _I enjoyed the hobby, not amymore. Since around 2016, the money
| grab situation became a joke, it all started with Drop (former
| massdrop) and it all went downhill.._
|
| I have been a mechanical keyboard user for decades and I have
| no idea what you mean or who or what this is talking about.
| There are people for whom keyboards are a hobby?? What is
| "Drop"?
|
| If I want a mechanical keyboard I just buy it directly from
| Cherry, the quality is high, the prices are fair, the customer
| service is great, I've never had any problems.
| dagw wrote:
| _If I want a mechanical keyboard I just buy it directly from
| Cherry_
|
| As with just about everything, while most people are
| perfectly happy just buying the thing, there are always
| people who prefer to buy the pieces and build their own to
| their exact taste and preference.
|
| It could be computers or sailboats or guitars or, as in this
| case, keyboards.
| YinglingLight wrote:
| Frequenting a subreddit for hobbyX sabotages one's
| enjoyment for hobbyX.
| 5560675260 wrote:
| > keyboards are a hobby
|
| A hobby as in building and customising keyboards. If I want a
| mechanical keyboards I'll spend weeks researching various
| pcbs and kits, looking at keyswitch datasheets and listening
| to recording of sounds they make, choosing keycaps with
| perfect font, color and manufacturing process. Don't get me
| started on keyboard cases...
| nvoid wrote:
| >What is "Drop"?
|
| https://drop.com/
|
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drop_(company)
| goatinaboat wrote:
| Thanks. How was this one company able to distort the
| market? Is this an American thing? Here in the UK
| mechanical keyboards are readily available with no such
| issues. I don't think we suffer from any "money grab"
| situation.
| ok123456 wrote:
| You can order good quality mechanical keyboards on
| <insert major online retailer here> for $30--$80.
|
| Most likely, these are going to be using the same exact
| switches from the same companies that are used on more
| expensive ones.
|
| After that price point it's just commodity fetishism.
| Paying $300 for "uwu" key caps in pastel colors or other
| such childish garbage.
| 867-5309 wrote:
| seconded. also in the UK and never heard of Drop. perhaps
| the Americans should order from Europe instead of China?
| ValentinPearce wrote:
| It's like most things. You can buy most things at a
| decent to good quality easily, but if you want something
| bespoke, it costs more.
|
| I like building things, so I'm making my own keyboard. I
| decided on a switch type. I like a strong tactile switch
| so MX Browns are too soft for me so I'll pay a bit more
| for something that suits my taste.
|
| My PC is in the living room, I like having a pretty
| living room, so I'll pay a bit more for a pretty keyboard
| case, a pretty rotary encoder and pretty keycaps.
|
| I'm French and the problem to me is that the hobby of
| building custom keyboards is increasingly popular in the
| US and in Asia but very little of it is European. This
| means few keycap sets have the big ISO enter key that
| doesn't exist on ANSI keyboards. Pretty keycaps are
| expensive. Shipping to/from the US and Asia is also
| expensive.
|
| I also use a non conventional keyboard layout (Canadian
| Multilingual Standard) which has small differences with
| more standard layouts and though I can type mostly
| without looking at my keyboard, I still look a it
| sometimes and it's confusing to have something completely
| different printed on the key. I've started working with
| blank keycaps but those aren't much easier to find.
| Especially in some profiles. (You can have an idea of
| profiles here : https://www.keycaps.info/stack)
|
| Another factor to the cost is that a lot of the parts are
| produced for limited runs. I'm not exactly sure how it's
| organised but a designer submits a new design, if enough
| people are interested they order a bunch of them with a
| little extra but they can't easily buy a lot of stock to
| keep selling. I feel like a lot of the designers do it a
| side thing and can't afford to invest in it.
|
| Compare it to cars, where people will buy extremely
| powerful cars, with crazy interiors and using enough
| petrol to power a small country when a good old second
| hand Voxhall would be enough for their needs.
| mxmilkiib wrote:
| Link appears to 404, https://www.keycaps.info/ works
| though.
|
| MT3 can only be had from Drop.
|
| https://matt3o.com/about-mt3-profile-and-devtty-set
|
| Edit: might as well also mention
| https://keycaplendar.firebaseapp.com for tracking most
| regular Group Buy dates
| adamors wrote:
| Nobody is talking about keyboards that are available in
| supermarkets. https://drop.com/mechanical-
| keyboards/wdrops?subcategory=key...
| numpad0 wrote:
| There is a community of artisanal Arduino-based
| mechanical keyboards in existence
| Andrew_nenakhov wrote:
| It doesn't even allow to see prices without registration!
| Now, that a new level of being hostile to customers! I
| think I'd rather pass.
| sethammons wrote:
| A couple of years ago, a buddy convinced me to sign up.
| Personally, I've only found them to be expensive. Like,
| they show it as a bulk sales price drop, but it feels
| more like gimmick original prices (though I don't think
| they are doing that, maybe it is just normal prices
| outside my comfort level).
| Uberphallus wrote:
| Mechanical keyboards are great. Fell in love with an M 20 years
| ago, and wanted the same feeling. There are great models under
| $100 that will last you forever. I have 3: 1 at work, 1 at
| home, and 1 BT for the media center. That's it. Never replaced
| them, I just got them not to move keyboards around.
|
| The rest I agree. It's like the audiophile business. Drop
| basically turns every consumer product line into an exclusive,
| elitist, better than you, brag in front of your bros
| marketplace with absurd margins. Keycaps are the worst
| offender, they're the cheapest thing in the whole keyboard to
| manufacture yet they get sold for... hundreds??!? Hard pass on
| all that.
| bobcostas55 wrote:
| Just go on ebay, you can find great pbt double-shot keycaps
| for ~$20 or even less, usually shipped from China. The
| enthusiast shops only carry the most expensive stuff.
| cattlemansgold wrote:
| Care to share your favorite sub $100 keyboard?
| WrtCdEvrydy wrote:
| In terms of cheap, I run the redragon K40 at $40.
| Uberphallus wrote:
| Been running Noppoo Choc since it came out, got two of
| them. Newer Noppoo Lolita Spyder had the same feeling but
| didn't award being bought. At work a colleague has a Drevo
| Tyrfing V2, too much LED but it has a good touch too.
| jonfw wrote:
| ducky keyboards are around the $90-$120 range mostly,
| depending on the model you get. I think they're a great
| option for a high quality but non-exotic keyboard
| chestervonwinch wrote:
| Not OP, but I've been using a Durgod Taurus K320 TKL for
| two years as my primary work keyboard with no problems. I
| like it quite a bit.
| jolux wrote:
| Boutique keycaps are expensive because small-run injection
| molding is always expensive. I'm not at all sure they're the
| cheapest part of the whole keyboard, I would bet the case is
| probably cheaper.
| Uberphallus wrote:
| > small-run
|
| Yeah, that's the excuse, but seems like every batch is
| small-run, limited release, exclusive collectors edition,
| but somehow more and more stock keeps coming back over
| time. They're expensive even by Warhammer standards, but at
| least Warhammer figures have detailed work from an artist
| on them.
|
| > I would bet the case is probably cheaper.
|
| You're right on that, actually.
| jolux wrote:
| >Yeah, that's the excuse, but seems like every batch is
| small-run, limited release, exclusive collectors edition,
| but somehow more and more stock keeps coming back over
| time.
|
| I can all but guarantee you that fancy custom keycaps are
| rarely going to be done in runs big enough to have the
| economies of scale drive down the cost of tooling.
| Particularly with double shots and the like, those molds
| are extremely expensive. I don't doubt that the products
| are luxury priced, but I think you might be surprised by
| what the costs are here.
| [deleted]
| julian_t wrote:
| Oh yes, it's similar to a lot of other 'enthusiast' things,
| like high-end audio, cameras and guitars.
|
| I got into keyboards because I wanted a lockdown project. I
| figured I could learn a little about electronics and firmware,
| learn how to solder, and even perhaps make something that would
| be useful at work. Keycaps can be a complete rip-off, and my
| keyboard is fitted with a mixture of caps that I've scrounged
| from various places.
|
| And when we finally get back to the office, a super-noisy
| mechanical keyboard will help my project of being allowed to
| WFH as much as possible ;-)
| szszrk wrote:
| That explains a lot to me, as a (almost) user. Wanted to buy
| one, loved hackers keyboard, but the whole thing was more
| expensive then a modern mobile ryzen 4xxx mini pc with lots of
| ram and m2 ssd, wifi6 and so on. It also not locally available
| so basically no real warranty for me.
|
| Got one of those curvy ergonomic divided keyboards from MS and
| forgot about the whole thing, while saving $500.
| alpaca128 wrote:
| > same old keycaps vendors that have months if not years of
| intentionally delayed orders
|
| Got any source on this? I don't disagree with the rest of your
| claims, but this sounds completely wrong; for example GMK is
| actively expanding their production capacity and already offers
| a selection of keycap sets without shipping delays.
|
| Orders are delayed because the "same old" manufacturers are
| flooded with an ever-increasing demand for customized low-
| quantity productions, each of which introduce an overhead. And
| the appearance of new, cheaper manufacturers only seemed to
| make the demand explode even more.
| jabroni_salad wrote:
| Here's my opinion as to why you might avoid a linear switch: They
| are just too easy to press. That is indeed nice for gaming, but
| you will send keystrokes just setting your fingers on the home
| row.
|
| Also, this guide seems to be a rehash of what was available 10
| years ago. It would be nice if you covered some of the newer
| options. Personally I dipped my toes in the water for the first
| time about 6 months ago and didn't recognize anything that was
| actually on the market compared to when I bought my first board
| with MX Blues back in 2010, and this is more or less the extent
| of the knowledge you could get back then.
| tomtheelder wrote:
| That's an issue with extremely light (read: cherry red or
| equivalents), but if you get heavier switches you are very
| unlikely to have this issue. You are more likely to
| accidentally actuate a cherry brown than a black, for example.
|
| Also I agree with your second point. If nothing else, it should
| be mentioned that you're more likely to see Gateron/Kailh in
| mass market boards these days. They do use a very similar color
| scheme which makes it easier for beginners though.
| jabroni_salad wrote:
| I'm currently using a Cherry G80-1800 with blacks (just got
| it, still got the honeymoon factor). I'm not really a gorilla
| man but I've had a lot of accidental presses. My normal board
| is running holy pandas which are lighter weight, but I never
| get accidental presses because the tactile bump keeps me away
| from the actuation point unless I actually want to press it.
| tomtheelder wrote:
| Fair enough. I guess if you use the bump of the keys as
| your resting point then linears could give you trouble. I
| tend to just gently rest my fingertips on the keys without
| depressing them at all (I'm on 45g linears right now with
| no trouble). I guess it just depends on your style.
| japhyr wrote:
| I got a board with silent reds (Durgod K320), and they felt
| really soft after using blue switches for a while before
| that. So I ordered a Leopold with black switches, figuring
| I'd enjoy the quieter linear switches but make fewer
| mistakes.
|
| I was amazed at how much different the black switches felt.
| Pressing them a few times felt good, but when I actually
| tried to work with it my hands got tired really quickly and
| it became distracting.
|
| The K320 with silent reds is now my go-to board, except for a
| wireless Vortex Tab 75. I'm currently waiting on a Tab 75
| with silent reds, and I hope that will be my One True
| Keyboard.
| JetSetWilly wrote:
| I have the very same kb with silent blacks. I had had reds
| before and found them too easy to press - I suppose I do a
| lot of drumming fingers on the keys or just resting hands
| on the keyboard. I found the silent blacks to be perfect
| and not at all tiring after a full day of use.
|
| I think it goes to show everybody is different and has
| different habits.
| hutrdvnj wrote:
| I have a K320 with browns. Maybe browns are for you, they
| have a tactile feedback like the black, but it's much
| weaker, like the blues so you don't get tired. They are
| much more silent than the blues (no click), but are a bit
| louder than the silent reds.
| john_alan wrote:
| I just don't get why so many say this. It never happens to me.
|
| I find reds to have just the right pressure.
| _fzslm wrote:
| it takes a minute to get used to.
|
| when i first got my MX Brown keyboard i was making typos all
| over the place. i wasn't used to how little i had to apply
| pressure to actuate a key. over time, i got used to it and i
| forgot i ever had that problem.
|
| i remember when i see people who've never used Browns before
| sit down and struggle in the same way i first did.
| amelius wrote:
| Does anyone know a place where to buy custom keycaps? (As in: you
| send SVG file and color, and you receive keycaps by mail)
| propelledjeans wrote:
| Try WASD: https://www.wasdkeyboards.com/
|
| Quite a few of my former coworkers had their sets made by WASD.
| ardit33 wrote:
| I was in a market for a mech. keyboard last month, and after
| trying out few, I settled on the Logitech G915 TLK (ten keyless),
| white
|
| It is expensive but the best out there by far. The black one
| comes in tactile, clicky blue, and linear, and the white version
| is tactile only.
|
| Both the clicky (blue) switches and the tactile feel great (you
| can test them out at a best buy). The clicky/linear/tactile keys
| are offered only on the black version, while the white one has
| tactile only.
|
| If you like tactile keys, Get the WHITE version (it is slightly
| different, and better than the tactile black). It is very low
| profile, and you don't need a wrist, rest. Also the keycap shape
| is great for programmers (it is more flat than others, but it has
| a slight curve, and a bevel).
|
| https://www.logitechg.com/en-us/products/gaming-keyboards/g9...
|
| White version: https://www.bestbuy.com/site/logitech-
| gaming-g915-tkl-blueto...
|
| It is truly a beautiful keyboard and joy to type on.
| BoorishBears wrote:
| This comment gives me some seriously mixed feelings.
|
| I guess it's like a prebuilt computer vs a custom build.
|
| If you're interested in learning about mechs, ok with ordering
| from a few different places, you can build a keyboard
| significantly better than that Logitech for half the price.
|
| For the same price you'd get a keyboard in an entirely
| different bracket of quality (imo the Logitech is about where
| $50 mechs from companies like Reddragon are, just with some
| better QC and CS)
|
| -
|
| But if you're not ok with all that, then it's a slightly
| different story?
|
| I mean that Logitech specifically has low profile switches
| which are not great, and the keycaps typical chintsy Logitech
| ones (bad) and are non-standard (really bad, imo that defeats
| one of the best things about a mech).
|
| It's a very specific keyboard for a very specific kind of
| consumer, I definitely wouldn't call it the best.
|
| If someone's not interested in wireless as a hard requirement,
| Ducky keyboards have excellent keycaps and better build
| quality.
|
| If you need wireless I'd recommend the Keychron K6, hot
| swappable so you can experiment with different switches, normal
| keycap situation, all around a solid keyboard.
| ericmay wrote:
| In case anyone stumbles into this thread and is looking for the
| same specs that I was but with a mechanical, check out Keychron.
| My requirements were:
|
| * Bluetooth
|
| * USB-C (for charging and wired mode)
|
| * Mac layout
|
| * Small form factor similar to laptop keyboard
|
| * Not outrageously expensive
|
| I've been very happy with the one I bought.
|
| I have no affiliation with Keychron. https://www.keychron.com/
| Earwig wrote:
| +1 for Keychron (also not affiliated), the C2 in my case since
| I don't need wireless. It's hard to find pre-built mechanical
| keyboards with Mac layouts. I previously had a WASD but made
| the mistake of going with clear switches that hurt my hand
| after extended typing sessions. That's not WASD's fault--it's
| otherwise a good keyboard--but there's no way to change the
| switches on that one. The Keychron can even be hot-swappable,
| and it was less than half the price of the WASD for comparable
| build quality.
| ericmay wrote:
| > It's hard to find pre-built mechanical keyboards with Mac
| layouts
|
| Yea isn't that the truth. To be fair I think the market is
| likely smaller and judging from my own just general
| experience most opt for Apple's Magic Keyboard - which is a
| fine keyboard and I'd be mostly happy with one (especially
| with Touch ID integrated so I don't have to reach over to my
| Air to unlock) but I prefer the mechanical key typing and
| feeling.
|
| I have the KeyChron K2 as well for anyone wondering.
| solutron wrote:
| Just ordered a FalbaTech the other week. I am super excited. Have
| been using the MacBook pro keyboard for the past year and didn't
| have a proper desk setup until I moved to a bigger place just a
| few weeks ago. I had to bust out a Kinesis 2 that's been in a
| closet, and i gotta say, going back to a split setup wasn't as
| hard as I thought it would be. You learn it once and it can stick
| pretty well. Now for all the Emacs bindings :D
| ta4545544545 wrote:
| Absolute load of wank, designed to suck dollars out of nerds. The
| Apple keypads were nice though - the IIgs was the penultimate,
| soft keys, good layout. $200+ keypads - nonsense. You're trying
| to hard to be a nerd; this is landfill in the making.
| MayeulC wrote:
| > this is landfill in the making
|
| More so than a membrane keyboard after 10 years? I would say
| the opposite, mechanical keyboards are easier to fix, and have
| resale value. I just bought a second-hand Ergodox as my first
| mechanical keyboard, it cost a bit more than my previous
| membrane one, but looks sturdier, and easier to fix with
| removable switches and keycaps.
|
| > Absolute load of w**, designed to suck dollars out of nerds.
|
| As a nerd, a scientist and an Engineer, I appreciate having
| options. Not a single device will fit everyone, and I would
| likely disagree with you on what is the best keyboard. And I
| spend a lot of time typing, so I find it important enough.
|
| As someone quite new to all of this, I appreciate comprehensive
| guides being written on the topic.
| lasagnaphil wrote:
| For the build quality of mechanical keyboards it really
| depends on what you buy. I've experienced cheap mechanical
| keyboards (around 50$ ~ 100$) break within about two years,
| these really aren't more reliable than membrane ones.
| MayeulC wrote:
| Ah, of course, it depends on what you buy. But in most
| cases, you can desolder a switch and order a replacement
| one.
|
| I've had to repair a EUR70 Cyborg v7 keyboard. The PCB is
| printed on a flexible substrate, so I went with a
| conductive ink instead of my soldering iron. Now, a few
| years later, it seems to be defective again, but it's
| transient, so hard to diagnose. If the membrane gets torn,
| you have to replace it entirely, and they are not really
| standardized, so you'd have to get a specific one.
|
| Moreover, keycaps do not seem to be standardized either on
| most membrane keyboards, so you have the same issue.
|
| I guess that's an area where having low volumes is a good
| thing: you can't do anything too specific, it wouldn't be
| worth it. So the individual parts are themselves really
| standardized.
| schwartzworld wrote:
| Every part on my mechanical keyboard could be taken out and
| reused on a new build if I wanted. How is that more wasteful?
| fouric wrote:
| As many other comments have mentioned here, the mechanical
| community keyboard is mostly focused on aesthetics (visual,
| audio, and tactile) over functionality.
|
| Regardless, I've been able to build far more functional keyboards
| _because_ of the community. I 'm not aware of a single commercial
| device that has all of: ortholinearity, concavity, tenting, split
| halves, and thumb clusters - let alone the ridiculous features of
| qmk[1], all of which provide ergonomic value (at least in theory)
| - and I was only able to construct this keyboard because of the
| efforts of the mechanical keyboard folks. I'm not complaining (:
|
| [1] https://beta.docs.qmk.fm/using-qmk/software-features
| egypturnash wrote:
| QMK has a sequencer built in. That's beautifully absurd.
| refactor_master wrote:
| I still swear by my Magic Keyboard, even as I code in Windows
| every day.
|
| I once bought a Ducky keyboard, but returned it because of the
| wrist pain it gave me.
| namelosw wrote:
| I feel there's a full cycle of buying keyboards. I wonder do
| people feel the same?
|
| 1. Buy mechanical keyboards with click sounds, preferably blue
| switch ones.
|
| 2. (Optional) tweak keycaps
|
| 3. (Optional) tweak customized keyboards
|
| 4. Wondering if Topre or PFU is really better as people said.
| Then proceed to buy one, and couldn't be happier
|
| 5. Actually, I could be happier because I don't care about
| keyboards anymore - my favorite is a silent red switch one
| because it's doesn't draw attention (both mine and others'). Also
| never go back to keyboard forums or subreddits.
| caskstrength wrote:
| > 4. Wondering if Topre or PFU is really better as people said.
| Then proceed to buy one, and couldn't be happier
|
| No, I hated my HHKB.
| SwimSwimHungry wrote:
| As someone who has owned an HHKB at one point, then switched
| over to a full-size Topre Realforce board, I have to say you
| should consider giving Topre-based switches another chance,
| but on a proper Realforce board instead. Unlike the HHKB,
| Realforce keyboards use a metal plate internally, which seems
| to make for a more satisfying "thock" if you will. Plus, you
| can also acquire a Realforce board with varied key weights
| instead of the uniform 45g weight found on the HHKB.
| caskstrength wrote:
| Are there any QMK-programmable Topre boards? I'm open to
| trying them out but not if I have to learn and get used to
| yet another layout for media controls.
|
| Edit: Also, do I still need to lube them? I remember HHKB
| felt slightly "scratchy" by default. Some people would also
| say that cherry-likes also needs to be lubed but my Zealios
| boards feel awesome as-is.
| fomine3 wrote:
| Keyboard Quantizer makes any USB keyboard to support QMK
| by proxying USB. It won't support all QMK feature/key
| combination due to the architecture. Probably you can
| import it from Japan.
|
| https://shop.yushakobo.jp/products/keyboard-quantizer
| ggm wrote:
| > _Also never go back to keyboard forums or subreddits._
|
| A.K.A. recovering addict.
| YinglingLight wrote:
| Imagine going back to r/buildapc after you've built your rig.
| Exercise in masochism.
| karmakaze wrote:
| I recognized this would be the cycle, so jumped to the end as
| the first step. Where I'm looping though is on keyboard
| layouts, and I may end up going for a matrix/split keyboard but
| I'm holding off.
| john_alan wrote:
| Yep me too. I skipped blues despite really wanting them.
|
| I got an IQUNIX F96 with reds. It's been great.
| MperorM wrote:
| That was exactly my experience.
|
| Sold off every keyboard except one with sentimental value.
| Typing this from a macbook keyboard.
| alpaca128 wrote:
| I always hated clicky switches and I have no idea why people
| like them. It's the quickest way to make a $1k keyboard feel as
| cheap as a clicky ballpoint pen. Don't get me wrong, I like the
| _idea_ of clicky switches, I just think all existing variants
| get it completely wrong(maybe except one or two Alps switches,
| but that 's another rabbit hole).
|
| And you can pry my 40% split ergo out of my cold, dead hands. I
| don't care about Topre, just give me nice linear switches and a
| layout that won't kill my wrists and didn't originate in a
| prehistoric era when it comes to computers.
| m463 wrote:
| I am at topre and love it.
|
| I ended up with realforce rgb and don't care about the rgb,
| except it's really nice to have a lighted keyboard at night.
|
| I don't think there's an RGB PFU, is there?
|
| I added the little topre foam surround damper things and it was
| kind of expensive, but made it a lot more comfortable (and
| maybe quieter).
| numpad0 wrote:
| Use LED light bars that attaches to LCD, a la ThinkLight vs
| MacBook backlights.
| [deleted]
| hyperpl wrote:
| I have tried all Cherry's and I think brown or clear was the
| most similar to topre but I keep going back to topre. Not sure
| if there's something wrong with me or why Cherry's are so
| popular. Perhaps it's because they're modular whereas topre's
| aren't?
| fomine3 wrote:
| 1. Switch from cheap membrane to MX Brown mechanical, feels
| good
|
| 2. Buy Topre Realforce, fully satisfied for switch
|
| 3. Buy split mechanical keyboard, found split is really
| mandatory
|
| 4. Find best switch, but not satisfied as Topre
|
| 5. Wait for split Topre forever
| archi42 wrote:
| For me it's more like this:
|
| 1. Skip your 1,2,3,4 and just get am inexpensive Cherry MX-
| Board
|
| 2. After several years, realize that I'm not really happy with
| keyboard because it boosts my bad posture. So I see if there is
| a split keyboard that suites my needs.
|
| 3. Damn, I need to test switches (luckily a friend has a nice
| selection of testers).
|
| 3. I think I might prefer tactile, but I don't want to blow the
| money on an expensive split keyboard to learn I don't like
| tactile - so better go with hot swappable switches.
|
| 4. Realize the exact board I would prefer doesn't exist.
|
| 5. Do some research on firmware, keyboard matrix circuit,...
|
| 6. Use the opportunity to learn kicad over eagle.
|
| Started with 6. yesterday. Actually it's not that complicated,
| I'm more afraid of hand soldering 100 SK6812 Mini-E and 100
| kailh sockets than of the rest.
| mech422 wrote:
| When I opened up my board to swap the switches, I realized it
| had unused RGB pads...soo of course I hand solder 60 2-3mm
| surface mount LEDs to it. Yep, last time I do that :-P But it
| worked, which was the fun part...
|
| the sad part is, I don't even like RBG on computer gear
| archi42 wrote:
| I'm not a huge RGB person, either. But my Thinkpad has
| plain white background LEDs. And even though I type blindly
| 98% of the time, I find it more comfortable to have some
| (slight) hinting when positioning.
|
| Sad part for me: TIL that most keycaps with "shine through"
| need the LED above/north of the switch (else the LED mostly
| blinds the user), which means I need to rotate all switches
| by 180 deg. But the GMK caps (which are considered some of
| the "best") are known to cause trouble with that
| orientation. And some switches might be feel different as
| well.
| visarga wrote:
| I just want the keyboard to have those nice color keycaps and
| the tactile sensation to remind me of old IBM keyboards I used
| to have as a child.
|
| Those were the days when simply using a computer or touching a
| keyboard was a rush, computers were rare and everything was so
| mysterious. Now they are commodities without much poetry in
| them. So I want the poetry back.
| bitwize wrote:
| Note that the IBM Model M is actually a "membranical" design.
| Beneath the famous buckling spring is a bit of metal that
| strikes a contact membrane to close the circuit and register
| a keypress.
|
| That said, it's nothing like the rubber dome pieces of crap
| we associate with membrane keyboards; its durability and
| keyfeel are still legendary. The membranical design may have
| contributed to its durability by making it less susceptible
| to dust and dirt.
| formerly_proven wrote:
| Rose-tinted glasses: the reason the Model M is a membrane
| keyboard is because it was heavily cost-reduced / cheapened
| down from prior designs.
| KozmoNau7 wrote:
| As far as I know, the Model F is the real built-like-a-
| tank keyboard that almost makes a Model M seem flimsy by
| comparison.
| sbierwagen wrote:
| Note you can buy new Model F reproductions:
| https://www.modelfkeyboards.com/store/
|
| They're not cheap.
| andreareina wrote:
| Topre caps are also a rubber dome design.
| nvoid wrote:
| I still love the patent name for it: "Catastrophically
| buckling compression column switch and actuator". Still
| wondering what is catastrophic about it.
|
| https://patents.google.com/patent/US3699296A/en
| rjsw wrote:
| > Still wondering what is catastrophic about it.
|
| The behaviour is described by catastrophe theory [1].
|
| [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catastrophe_theory
| skjoldr wrote:
| You can buy a Unicomp keyboard which is the IBM Model M
| that's still being manufactured by the former Lexmark
| employees on the original equipment.
| TheRealDunkirk wrote:
| I have 2 WASD's (blue and green), a Poker2, an OLD Razer
| Black Widow, and a few others. I always said that when
| Unicomp made a tenkeyless version, it would be a day-1
| purchase. Two days ago, I just noticed that they started
| shipping in February. I bought one on the spot.
| intrasight wrote:
| That's great news! I'm here typing on my 36 year old IBM
| type m because I've tried the rest, including WASD, and
| found them wanting.
| michael1999 wrote:
| How is it? How's the noise compared to blues? I need
| something quieter for zoom.
| john_alan wrote:
| Totally agree. I had an IBM 386DX. That's how it made me
| feel.
|
| Curly cable keyboard and everything
| arkh wrote:
| > Wondering if Topre or PFU is really better as people said.
|
| I have one I love, bought it like 10 years ago. When I tried to
| buy a second one this year I had the bad surprise to discover
| they're not available with French layout anymore.
|
| Anyway, some steps you forgot: the search for the best
| ergonomic keyboard and key layout.
| ruicaridade wrote:
| I've experienced the same thing. All my fancy regular
| mechboards are sitting on the shelf while I daily drive
| electro-capacitive switches.
|
| Epomaker makes a more affordable but equally as great Topre
| clone, compatible with MX keycaps:
| https://epomaker.com/collections/niz - I have one and got
| nothing but good things to say.
| andrewmcwatters wrote:
| Yes. I think it ends up starting with blue, peaking to a dream
| keyboard which looks different for different people, then
| finally moving gradually back to keyboards resembling
| mainstream usage.
| nine_k wrote:
| Mainstream are less comfortable than split or one-piece
| ergonomic. Thumb clusters are too convenient to let go.
|
| But switches... I'd love membrane switches from a Thinkpad
| x220 or T410. Maybe I should buy a dead one just for
| keyboard, and reuse the keys :)
| vladvasiliu wrote:
| Wholly agree on the ergonomic factor.
|
| But I also quite like not having to _hit_ the keys because
| they 're stiff. I have a mechanical with Gateron browns
| which is silent enough for when I'm alone. Whenever I
| switch back to my MBP (2013 model, so "old" keyboard) I
| always miss keys because I don't push hard enough on them.
| This even happens on my work HP ProBook, which I had always
| considered having very "soft" keys.
|
| But I think the difference between mechanical and "soft
| dome" is that even though the latter are soft, it's an "on
| and off" affair. When you start pressing you have a lot of
| resistance, which all of a sudden disappears, and you can't
| stop the finger until you hit the bottom.
|
| On my mechanical, it takes me maybe a day or two to get
| used when I switch back, but then I'm able to type much
| more softly. Not sure how this affects my typing speed, my
| feeling is that I type about the same. But it's much more
| comfortable.
|
| My favorite dome keyboard right now is the MS Sculpt, but I
| would love a similarly-priced (~EUR100), similarly-shaped
| mechanical.
| nine_k wrote:
| Regarding key softness and feedback.
|
| My current configuration has the softest MX keys I could
| find (like 30g) for all keys but the 8 keys on the home
| row where fingers sit at rest.
|
| These home row keys are NovelKey Box tactile keys,
| something like 60g. They are heavily tactile, but not
| noisy.
|
| The trick is that I can leave my fingers on these stiffer
| keys, relax them, and the keys won't press under their
| weight. I never have to remove my hands from the
| keyboard, they are always ready to type without staying
| tense.
| mech422 wrote:
| I'm just the opposite...Kaihl box navies and Cherry
| greens..
|
| I learned to touch type on a manual typewriter, so 'soft'
| switches tend register if my fingers twitch.
| vladvasiliu wrote:
| I thought about that, but I actually don't have an issue
| with involuntary key presses on the Gateron browns.
| Ironically, this does tend to happen on the HP Laptop.
|
| But I think it's related to the "on / off" thing. Usually
| my hands rest their weight on the wrist-rest, but if I
| happen to shift the weight towards the fingers, I'll feel
| the gaterons start to move and have the time to stop.
| With the laptop, on the other hand, I don't feel anything
| and when I do, it's too late.
| dehrmann wrote:
| I'm guessing there's also a point where ergonomics take over.
| alexfoo wrote:
| I'm glad I just started at 5 in that list.
|
| For me it's a Filco Majestouch TKL with Cherry Rex MX Silent
| switches. Relatively fast typist (130-150wpm) coding/emails
| most of the day.
|
| Anything louder just wouldn't work given WFH constraints.
| TheSpiceIsLife wrote:
| This sounds like an allegory where novelty wears off.
|
| Commonly referred to as _getting old_.
|
| I agree. I'm less and less interested in shiny things as I age,
| and more interesting in getting home safely.
| bitwize wrote:
| Oddly enough, it was aging that drew me to mechanical
| keyboards in the first place. I found that as I grew older,
| my hands started cramping when I typed, and the worse the
| keyboard, the more quickly my hands turned into gnarled,
| pain-wracked claws. Laptop keyboards were pretty bad but
| rubber-dome membrane keyboards -- of the type that just about
| everybody sold at the time -- were the worst.
|
| Relief only came when I bought a Das Keyboard III with
| heavenly Cherry Blue switches.
|
| I'm still rocking that board today, nearly 13 years later.
| mech422 wrote:
| same here - as I got older, I really started to notice the
| stress typing put on my hands. Even though I use ultra
| heavy switches now (kailh box navies, cherry greens, etc) I
| still feel better at the end of the day. And switches don't
| register everytime my fingers twitch.
| ehnto wrote:
| I just went the pragmatic route and bought a Ducky mechanical,
| enjoyed the feel and layout. Call it a day.
| KozmoNau7 wrote:
| I would buy a Ducky One 2 in the Skyline colors (reminds me
| of old Thinkpad keyboards with the blue return key), but
| they've been out of stock with a Nordic layout for 6 months
| now.
| ehnto wrote:
| Yes I had to settle for something other than Skyline as
| well. I also bought a separate keykap set thinking it
| wouldn't come with any accent keycaps for WASD, but it did.
| So I have a lot of spare keycaps.
| StavrosK wrote:
| I went somewhat differently, I tried a split wireless keyboard
| and couldn't go back after that but Bluetooth was flaky, so I
| designed my own (wired) one.
|
| Best keyboard I've ever used.
| wink wrote:
| I don't know, I'd definitely call myself a mech keyboard fan,
| but not a zealot.
|
| The one I'm typing on right now I've had since 2013 (changing
| key caps once in a while) and as I'm working from home, my
| private other one is close by.
|
| I do have a few more (I think 3 others? [0]), but I've not
| found something to replace my daily driver and I'm not actively
| searchign. I'm not completely averse to building one at some
| point but I don't see the need, it might be a fun (expensive)
| project.
|
| [0]: https://f5n.org/blog/2018/mechanical-keyboards/
| kubami wrote:
| I think there is a distinct branch to this path. When you start
| building your own mechanical, ergonomic keyboards. I know this
| because I have built my first one couple of weeks ago [1], and
| am already thinking of how I can improve it.
|
| [1] https://kubami.com/articles/split-keyboard-build/
| tincholio wrote:
| Same here. I built a Dactyl Manuform, and it was definitely
| worth the hassle. I do agree with the OP that the stuff you
| see on the MK subreddit and similar sites is ridiculous, and
| mostly rip-offs.
| mech422 wrote:
| I'm wanting to a 'tracktly' with a track ball on the right
| thumb cluster.
|
| Gotta admit - the DM cases look like a bear to solder in.
| ncann wrote:
| I've gone through the cycle and ended up with Silent Red as
| well. Though I still sub to r/mk and drool at people's build
| occasionally.
| queuep wrote:
| Damn, this pinpointed me exactly.
| bllguo wrote:
| Hah, definitely didn't follow those steps myself, although I
| can see that being a popular template. I do hope mechanical
| keyboards become less associated with clicky switches over
| time. Before I realized the hobby wasn't necessarily dominated
| by loud clacky sounds, I not only didn't see the appeal, but
| actively detested the whole idea. +1 for silent linears.
|
| Also, wanted to mention ergonomic layouts - would love for that
| space to be more mainstream! Some really cool stuff out there;
| I'm looking forward to getting a 3D printer someday and
| building some Dactyls.
| visarga wrote:
| > +1 for silent linears
|
| I have been extremely impressed with a heavy linear switch
| (Hako Clear - 75g). It has a bouncy feeling if you learn not
| to bottom out.
|
| https://kono.store/products/hako-clear-switches-10-ct
| john_alan wrote:
| I was told you "can't type" on lineages/reds/Silents.
|
| But I took the plunge anyway as a typer first gamer second.
|
| It's been great reds are easy to type on. In fact I can
| only get over 100wpm on my red switch board. I wonder why
| this myth perpetuates!?
| skjoldr wrote:
| You can type, but the relative lack of tactile feedback
| means you either have to press the keys harder or risk
| skipping letters.
| unicornfinder wrote:
| I went from Cherry MX Blues to Gateron Browns. I'm pretty happy
| and realised that I actually dislike the click.
| vishnugupta wrote:
| I cycle through these steps but, fortunately, only in my mind.
| I browse through e-commerce shops, read all the blogs, DYI
| keyboards and what not. But in the end I realize that my
| current keyboard, Apple Magic, isn't too bad. So I tell myself
| if it isn't broken why fix it and get back to work.
| donatj wrote:
| > Common membrane keyboards only offer a life span of 5 million
| keystrokes while a mechanical keyboard can reach 50 million.
|
| Maybe it's just me, but while I have never had a problem with a
| rubber dome board, I have had to clean/adjust/replace cherry
| switches on every board I've put a decent amount of use into.
| avereveard wrote:
| It's in the stat itself, common (aka lowest quality mass
| produced stuff) against expensive premium products. Of course
| good membrane keyboard will last for a good while more than
| 'common' stuff, while still costing half or less of the
| mechanical keyboards.
| ben7799 wrote:
| Heh.. my full circle ended up with 5 years of playing with
| mechanical keyboards causing RSI.
|
| I was completely brainwashed by the community that mechanical
| keyboards were the solution to RSI and had a major blind spot. I
| even learned dvorak and got up to near 100wpm at it with no
| success.
|
| When I ditched the mechanical keyboards all the problems went
| away.
|
| Something about the whole thing with the tactile bump in the
| middle doesn't work for me. When my typing ramps up to high speed
| I end up pushing the mechanical key all the way down to the stop
| anyway and blowing through the tactile bump. Once you're doing
| that you're moving your fingers further and doing more work, and
| the stops on these key switches are harder than a lot of non-
| mechanical keyboards.
|
| No doubt they feel great and I do think I can type faster on them
| but unquestionably for me the Cherry MX type switches give me RSI
| symptoms and tendonitis in my arms.
|
| I think it's all in the travel & how the "stop" at the end of the
| travel feels. I have a bunch of experience playing guitar and
| piano too.. piano has a long travel, if the stop at the end of
| the travel is hard it gives me RSI, but if it's not (and it's
| usually not on real acoustic piano keybeds) it's mostly OK.
| Guitar meanwhile has a rock hard stop but minimal travel, and a
| good guitar you also get some tactile feedback in that if you
| push the note down too far it goes sharp. Guitar basically gives
| me 0 RSI symptoms. A lot of these Cherry type mechanical
| keyswitches are the worst of both worlds.. long travel and a very
| hard/harsh stop at the bottom of the travel.
|
| Both the modern MS and Apple keyboards are mostly fine and I've
| been feeling great for about 6 years now since ditching the
| mechanical key switches.
|
| I think buckling spring might not cause me issues FWIW, but I
| tried a lot of mechanical KBs including TEK, Kinesis, different
| Das Keyboard models.. anything with a Cherry style switch (Actual
| Cherry MX or clones) gives me trouble.
| the_gipsy wrote:
| Habe you considered chocs or similar "short" switches?
|
| I recently built a corne with chocs, and I like that it gives
| that laptop feel.
| markdeloura wrote:
| Sorry to hear about your RSI troubles! The comments in this
| subthread sure highlight how many different experiences people
| have with RSI. I had a years-long bout with bilateral
| tenosynovitis 25 years ago and have had issues that I manage
| ever since. For me, the mechanical keyswitches (no bump)
| clearly help, as does tenting, splitting the board, and angling
| each half. I can't type on laptop keyboards for long durations
| without forearm pain, but on a Kinesis Freestyle Edge with MX
| Reds, I'm good to go as long as I take breaks every hour or
| two. YMMV!
| kps wrote:
| Bottoming out is a neglected problem. (The long soft stop is
| one of the reasons the IBM Selectric has the best key feel
| ever.)
|
| The Apple Extended Keyboard II is probably the most common
| 'mechanical' keyboard that was made with rubber ~baby~ button
| bottom bumpers. Unfortunately, for Jobs, "This keyboard
| represents everything about Apple that I hate."
|
| But in general, different people encounter different types of
| RSI. For me the problem is wrist motion or position, so a
| Kinesis contoured keyboard and Kensington Slimblade trackball
| were a solution.
| ziml77 wrote:
| What's weird is that a decade ago, bottoming out _was_ a
| concern in the mechanical keyboard community. A selling point
| of mechanical keyboards was that you didn 't have to bottom
| out; that's required on a membrane keyboard by their nature.
| O-rings were a very common way for people to fix bottoming
| out without having to learn to stop their fingers before
| reaching the end of the key travel (it was also a way to make
| the keyboards quieter by avoiding the clack).
| bob1029 wrote:
| I had a similar experience.
|
| Cherry MX Blue switch keyboards all around the house for a few
| years, then I noticed my hands and arms ache like hell after
| extended coding sessions where I am typing more than
| copy/pasta. I attributed this to the amount of pressure I was
| exerting to get the keys to depress in an agreeable way.
|
| Fast forward to now, I am using a Realforce R2 w/ Topre
| switches. The first few days I felt like I was typing on a
| cloud with zero feedback, but I got used to it really quickly.
| Can code for 12 hours straight now without any difficulties.
| Your fingers get desensitized to subtle forces when you are
| slamming those heavy keys around all the time.
|
| I went back and tried the MX blue keyboard the other day and it
| felt like typing on a pile of marble.
| 100011_100001 wrote:
| Can you elaborate a little bit more on the Topre switches. I
| am on MX Reds and I have been debating on switching over to
| Topre mainly because anyone that uses them likes them over
| everything else (price aside)
| bob1029 wrote:
| The travel and force required for the keys is something to
| get used to. I honestly don't know how to describe the
| sensation in a way that would properly inform a purchase.
|
| I will say this though - As someone who plays the piano and
| understands good form, the Topre is much more rewarding to
| disciplined hands. Lazy hands that rely on the spring
| tension of MX Blue switches to keep from accidental
| activation will take some training to get back into proper
| form.
|
| You have to be very intentional with this Realforce
| keyboard. Your fingers should not touch keys until you
| intend to fully depress them. It will punish you for being
| undisciplined and resting hands on keyboard with long
| sequences of "aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa", et. al. as you
| contemplate various sections of code.
| ben7799 wrote:
| The Topre is the only thing I didn't try. It's tempting, but
| it's an expensive keyboard and I have no problems just using
| cheap rubber dome/chiclet/butterfly keyboards.
|
| Your experience is just like mine, but mine got so bad I
| ended up the doctor. The doctors & hand specialists & PTs are
| very clued in about wrist posture, desk setup, etc.. but
| there is literally no medical research on keyboard switch
| travel, force, work, bump stops, etc.. so they never said
| anything about what kind of keyboard I was using.
| cryptonector wrote:
| It's not the switch, it's your typing habits. Resting your
| wrists while typing is a recipe for RSI.
| nabilhat wrote:
| Indeed, and the one change to keyboard design that would
| provide substantial ergonomic opportunities hasn't been
| seriously approached. The key switches are too large to provide
| layouts that fit hands that are narrower or shorter than
| somewhere larger than average.
|
| Lillian Malt kicked things off in the 1970's with the Maltron,
| a (brilliant) workaround for key spacing being too large for
| her hands. We've been beating around the same oversized
| components ever since, trying to squeeze out a drip or two of
| better ergonomics.
|
| Further useful pursuit of improved keyboard ergonomics requires
| keyswitches with a size and travel distance that isn't informed
| by the recent memory of typewriters and manufacturing
| limitations of the era of Cherry's original design, and
| produced in volume to at least Cherry MX standards. It's time
| to move away from typewriter-defined hardware.
| technoplato wrote:
| Have you tried an ergonomic split keyboard? I got an Ergodox
| for my birthday and it feels great to type on and I have MUCH
| less strain.
|
| Doesn't have to be that brand obviously but highly recommend
| checking out the idea at large.
| ben7799 wrote:
| Yes I mentioned owning both a TEK (Truly Ergonomic Keyboard)
| which I believe had the Kalih brown-types and I also owned a
| Kinesis with Cherry MX Browns.
|
| Neither helped.. the Kinesis is what I was using when things
| got so bad I had to go to the doctor.
| hollerith wrote:
| I, too, found a Kinesis (bowl-shaped) keyboard to be worse
| than a typical non-ergonomic keyboard with membrane
| switches. In fact, my worst RSI was during the year or 2 I
| used a Kinesis.
|
| When a person switches to a different kind of keyboard,
| particularly if many of the keys are in a different
| location, he or she must pay closer attention to the
| mechanics of typing until the keyboard becomes familiar. I
| have found that this paying of attention to the mechanics
| reduces RSI, whether I switch from a standard keyboard to a
| Kinesis or I switch back to a standard keyboard after a
| long period of using a Kinesis. So if you are sufficiently
| like I was, then you should wait a few months after
| switching to a Kinesis before concluding that it is
| actually better for you than a standard board.
|
| I had RSI (tendonitis) for about 5 years. A large fraction
| of my keyboarding time during those 5 years consisted of my
| slowly pecking at a (standard) keyboard with the eraser end
| of a pencil. I consulted doctors and worried that I would
| never again be able to work as a programmer.
|
| I cured my RSI and have been free of RSI for about 15
| years. I have been using cheap non-ergonomic membrane
| keyboards (Amazon Basics, $13 each including shipping
| before the pandemic started causing shortages of computer
| equipment) for a few years although for much of the last 15
| years I used expensive non-ergonomic membrane keyboards
| (Logitech K750s) out of an abundance of caution.
|
| The "height" of the keyboard (distance between the part
| resting on the desk and the top of the keycaps) is much
| lower on the membrane keyboards I have been using over the
| last 15 years than it is on any keyboard I have ever seen
| with mechanical switches. The lowness of the height is
| desirable because I can spend less time monitoring for good
| wrist position (because if my wrists are resting on the
| desk every now and then, the position is not as harmful as
| it would be if my keyboard were taller) and I don't need to
| bother with wrist rests.
| ben7799 wrote:
| The problem with the Kinesis is you're never going to
| always have a Kinesis available if you have to use
| someone else's computer, so it's really hard to really
| get to the point you use it correctly without thinking
| about it.
|
| Dvorak can be a huge handicap too if you can't be 100% in
| control of every computer you touch.
| hollerith wrote:
| >you're never going to always have a Kinesis available
|
| My lifestyle was stationary and uncomplicated enough that
| I used the Kinesis for 99.5% of my typing except for
| those times when my RSI was so bad that I abandoned
| 10-finger typing and switched to typing very slowly with
| the eraser end of a pencil (for which I usually switched
| to a standard keyboard).
| goodpoint wrote:
| THIS! Mechanical keyboards are bad for RSI due to the increased
| finger travel, hard springs and bumpy bottoming out.
|
| But Dvorak is the best layout to decrease finger travel.
|
| Do NOT take advice on ergonomics from the mech keyboard
| community: they focus primarily on shiny stuff and blinky LEDs.
| ziml77 wrote:
| The mechanical keyboard community has a fetish for switches
| that have an absurdly strong bump. I don't understand it. I've
| tried a couple different ones that are supposed to be amazing
| feeling and both times it felt like way more effort than I
| should have to put in to pressing a key. And then once you've
| passed that point you smash into the bottom.
|
| Personally I keep going back to MX browns because the slight
| tactile bump is easy to press past and gives enough feedback
| for me to be satisfied. I still bottom out but it isn't a
| sudden shock as I pass the bump. Though I actually have been
| thinking of switching to silent MX reds since they bottom out
| more softly. Or maybe I'll try O-rings again so I can get the
| softened landing and still keep the tactile bump.
| function_seven wrote:
| When I built my first keyboard, I used MX Browns because I
| didn't know any better.
|
| Then I read all the /r/MK threads and other forum posts where
| Browns are (almost) universally shit on. The conventional
| wisdom was that they were the worst switches out there.
|
| So my next keyboard was some clicky green thing. Can't
| remember the brand.
|
| They were _very_ tactile and clicky, but I didn 't like them.
| One problem was that the click was fake! It's a separate bar
| that snaps as the key travels down, but it's not associated
| with the electrical contacts at all. So depending on the key,
| it's possible to generate a keypress without hearing a click
| or (worse) get a click without closing the switch.
|
| I'm back on Browns now. I think you're right about the
| fetish. The clicks sound really cool, but they're not as
| useful as people claim.
|
| Or maybe I just have a "thunk" fetish, I don't know.
| michael1999 wrote:
| I was super bummed when I realized the blues I bought were
| similarly fake. I loved the old buckling springs, and
| wanted that certainty. But the click lies! If I trust the
| click a speed, I get mis-types.
| ben7799 wrote:
| For me the issue is typing is automatic.
|
| If I am a "conscientious typist" and I am actively/awarely
| concentrating on my fingers with MX browns I move my fingers
| with smaller travel and just go a little past the tactile
| bump and I'm fine.
|
| But as soon as I'm concentrating more on code, or trying to
| type fast, or under stress I start hitting the keys more
| quitckly and forcefully and I hit the bottom stop and that's
| when the keys start causing RSI type forces to build up.
|
| I don't have to be conscientious with most other types of
| switches. Theres something different about the feedback cycle
| and for me almost anything provides better feedback than the
| mechanical switches.
| ziml77 wrote:
| I think that's most of us. People who can stop after the
| bump certainly have trained in that way of typing, possibly
| even learned it that way from the start.
| ben7799 wrote:
| Interestingly I'm old enough that I learned to type on
| buckling spring type keyboards.
|
| But back when I was learning no one ever even discussed
| any of this stuff. I didn't meet the first person I knew
| with RSI till I got out of college. My first manager out
| of college had a bad case of it and she had all kinds of
| keyboards she was always trying to alleviate pain.
| vladvasiliu wrote:
| I think it's a question of habit. I use both membrane and
| Gateron brown switches, one or the other for longer periods
| of time, and I find that I tend to get used to the lighter
| force needed for the mechanical, to the point that for a
| while, when getting back to membrane, I miss keys.
| tristor wrote:
| Different people type differently, which is one reason why it's
| hard for the community to give good feedback about what sort of
| keyboard or keyswitches you should buy. Since you're a heavy
| type that goes to bottom, you should look at a board with Topre
| switches. The venerable Happy Hacking Keyboard (HHKB) is one
| such design that's specifically built for coding.
| nico_h wrote:
| You can add o-ring on the stem to soften the bottoming out
| (varying stiffness), or you can go for super-light springs so
| there is minimal strength required for pressing. Or I've seen
| people adding neoprene foam to the plate for a softer bottoming
| out.
| ben7799 wrote:
| I tried that, the o-rings made things worse. They soften the
| bottoming but they also increase the force required to
| actuate the key. They also make the feel of the keyboard
| horrible IMO.
|
| There's something about the tactile nature of the keys which
| just doesn't work for me and/or some other people.. the
| tactile nature makes us use more force instead of less, and
| there is no getting around these keys require more force X a
| greater distance so they literally make your fingers do more
| physical work.
| ziml77 wrote:
| They certainly did feel nasty to me, but they shouldn't
| increase the force required. A narrow enough O-ring should
| provide cushioning just past the actuation point. What I
| would have to do when I used O-rings is press every key
| very hard after installing them to ensure that they were
| pushed as far up as possible.
| ben7799 wrote:
| I didn't go off on a wild goose chase trying different
| O-rings. I believe I did the experiment on a Das Keyboard
| Professional something and I used the O-rings that Das
| Keyboard recommended and sold.
|
| It all got silly at some point. The Mantra is that
| mechanical keyboards are better. If you have trouble with
| RSI typing on them the community suggests a never ending
| series of high effort and/or high cost solutions. No one
| ever suggests the easy and cheap solution of just not
| using the mechanical keyboards.
|
| When I finally figured it out it was like I'd escaped
| from a cult. Interestingly I used Mechanical Keyboards at
| the office from about 2009-2014. During that time period
| tons of developers I worked with were steadily buying up
| Mechanical Keyboards, it was basically a trend/fad at
| that time.
|
| Fast forward to 2020 and I don't think there's a single
| developer left in my office who still uses them.
| ziml77 wrote:
| I'm 1 of 2 devs in my office that use mechanical
| keyboards, and the other one is only in the mechanical
| category because they have a Kinesis Advantage to
| eliminate the wrist pains they were having. It's all down
| to personal preference with input devices and there's no
| shame in using whatever suits you best.
| pushpankar wrote:
| I had the same experience. I bought cherry mx brown and on day
| 1, I thought I need to give it sometime to feel its
| superiority. I thought I am typing the wrong way and I need to
| relearn how much force I apply. There seems to be no consensus
| on how deep I should go. So I tried both bottoming out and till
| the bump. But I only feel the bump if I am focusing on it. If I
| go in work mode, I don't get any feedback and thus miss so many
| keys. I have been using it for 2 months and I feel it was waste
| of money.
| ben7799 wrote:
| Make sure you stop before it gets to the point of injury if
| you think you're getting progressively more and more sore.
| foo_barrio wrote:
| Funny you mention the hard stop! I too play piano and guitar
| and have not had problems with them. However I joined a startup
| way back in 2005 and was working on a laptop for 12+ hours a
| day and started to get RSI and shooting pains in my left hand.
| I moved to a full-sized keyboard with Cherry MX Blue switches
| and have not had a problem since. HOWEVER I ended up putting
| those little red rubber O-ring on the switches to soften the
| stop years ago. I wonder if softening the stop has spared me
| from any RSI. My keyboard is also quite thick and 100% requires
| a palm rest to get hands to the proper level of the keyboard.
|
| Edit: I see further below you mentioning trying out the O-rings
| and it made things worse for you. I might have lucked out in
| the hand-biomechanics part of my DNA.
| dlandis wrote:
| I tried a couple mechanical keyboards recently, but in both
| cases the left `control` key was further away from the center
| (I guess because the space key was significantly longer) than
| with a mac keyboard. It made it an uncomfortably long reach for
| my finger and that's a key I use very frequently; so I had to
| go back to the magic keyboard. If I had forced myself to adapt
| to that longer reach I have no doubt I would have ended up
| experience various issues.
| colin_mccabe wrote:
| You should consider a keyboard with Cherry Clear switches or
| similar. Brown and blue have a relatively short travel
| distance, and it sounds like you are a heavy typer.
| exebook wrote:
| I understand why people love mechanical keyboards, and my main
| keyboard is amazing mechanical Keychron K1, but I would rather
| prefer high quality membrane keyboards similar to those found in
| laptops, thin, light, silent. And I wish there was a way to
| produce membrane keyboards at home with arbitrary layouts. For
| example I prefer pretty rare "classical" IBM M1 but without
| numeric keys layout. But it seems impossible to print films and
| arrange keycaps in DIY way at home.
| senectus1 wrote:
| Wish I'd read this before I bought a new mech keyboard to replace
| the crappy dell one that came with my new system...
|
| That one hits the N-key rollover issue.. I cant use more than
| three keys at once on the cheap one.
|
| oh well I guess I'll get used to the new mech one when it
| arrives...
| poisonborz wrote:
| I feel like a perv, but I love the mushy soft travel of membrane
| keyboards. I have four Logitech G11-s for all my devices - the
| 3x18 extra keys are also great - they go strong since 15 years.
|
| The feats of mechanical do appeal tho, and I fear what happens
| when they broke - but none of the switches could come close to
| this typing experience, and all I tried were way too loud.
| tomtheelder wrote:
| Honestly credit for knowing what you like and not caving to
| hype/peer pressure. Membranes get a really bad rap, but if
| that's your groove then power to you.
| tomc1985 wrote:
| Hah! I know a guy who has a literal stockpile of the black
| wired Microsoft ergonomic keyboards. I only found out because
| I too love this keyboard and we both think the obsessing over
| MKs is silly
| avereveard wrote:
| Same I stocked up on Microsoft curve 2000 because these
| have great response, are quite firm and still have a long
| travel.
|
| When they went out of production I stockpiles four and I'm
| on my last pair (home and office)
|
| I had a mechanical keyboard before these were fashionable,
| but are honestly too loud to use in a shared environment
| without feeling like amasshole.
|
| Oh and there's also the fact that cherry stuff have
| ludicrous prices for what what they are and what marginal
| improvement they offer. Heck, most of them are still in the
| straight slab form factor, it's clear they mostly appeal to
| nostalgia and not actual ergonomics.
| olau wrote:
| Me too. I don't know what I'm going to do when the last
| one dies.
| Symbiote wrote:
| Some of us are too young (not that young...) to have
| stocked up on older Microsoft/Logitech ergonomic
| keyboards. I didn't realize mine would eventually wear
| out; by the time it did they were no longer available.
|
| The options I found were
|
| - something with laptop-style keys, which I find very
| uncomfortable to type on (I borrowed an MS Sculpt for a
| day)
|
| - a split, membrane keyboard, which (from reviews) often
| seemed lacking in build quality
|
| - a split, mechanical keyboard, either manufactured or as
| a DIY kit, and either a standard layout or something
| "weird".
|
| I chose the third option. It was easy enough to ignore
| everything covered in LEDs or with loud switches. I chose
| to assemble a kit, as I hadn't done any electronics for
| years.
|
| A month later I saw a Kinesis Advantage II visiting an
| office. That looked like a very good option too. I would
| probably have chosen that, if I'd seen it myself before
| deciding.
|
| (I also checked with my colleagues, and no-one is
| bothered by the sound -- it's within the range of all the
| other "normal" keyboards in the room.)
| tomc1985 wrote:
| The wired black MS ergos with membrane keys are still
| available
|
| edit- Holy shit, I guess they aren't. $500 new?!?!?! Glad
| I have a spare...
| Const-me wrote:
| > it's clear they mostly appeal to nostalgia and not
| actual ergonomics
|
| There's no objective criteria what's ergonomic, different
| people have different opinions.
|
| Once upon a time, I found a new job where people were
| using some MS ergonomic keyboards. I tried to adopt for a
| month or so, then I asked for another keyboard, with
| traditional form factor.
| avereveard wrote:
| Nonsense, the amount of wirst bending to move sideways
| across a straight keyboard is a known finite quantity,
| not some exoteric 'nobody knows really' thing. Just
| because you don't feel it, doesn't mean the strain isn't
| there
|
| I do agree however that some of the ms ergonomic keyboard
| went far too overboard with the concept to the point of
| being unusable. (I.e. those with the keyboard split in
| the middle instead of gently curving all the way across)
|
| But the good one are are way better than the straight
| slab.
| Const-me wrote:
| > Nonsense
|
| When disagreeing, please reply to the argument instead of
| calling names
| https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
|
| > the amount of wirst bending to move sideways across a
| straight keyboard is a known finite quantity
|
| That amount is not a universal constant. I have large
| hands with long fingers, and I've played piano when I was
| a teenager. I don't bend wrists to type stuff, at least
| when using furniture which suits me, and a full-sized
| desktop keyboard.
|
| > those with the keyboard split in the middle
|
| Indeed, it was one of them.
| avereveard wrote:
| Nonsense is disagreeing, not calling names.
| mjhagen wrote:
| Those were my keyboard of choice too! Bought a few when
| the industry seemed to think the home/delete/insert/page-
| up/down/end island needed a reshuffling.
| sethammons wrote:
| That was my favorite keyboard until cloud nine: split ergo
| that nearly mirrors the Microsoft Ergo 4000 but I prefer it
| now by a wide margin.
| xipho wrote:
| Second the Cloud 9, had been seaching for something like
| it for a (very) long time. I was a MS 4k user for decade
| +. There are some issue with it, but so far I'm still on
| board. The massive space I can spread left/right
| completely changes my shoulder posture, which is good for
| me, question will be wether changes impact my fingers
| (more pressure required I think?!). I find the key feel a
| little variable, enter key stabilizer bar in particular
| I'll have to grease if I was actually into that (am not),
| and some keys feel very slightly softer than others, but
| not distractingly so.
|
| It's also super macro-able with Karabiner, far more than
| 4k on Mac, if you're into that.
| foxrider wrote:
| As someone who loves mechanical keyboards - there are many
| good membrane keyboards out there, if I had to use a membrane
| that would be Lenovo Preferred. They are a joy to type on.
| square_usual wrote:
| I like both. I love the feel of my (former) 2015 MacBook Air
| membrane keyboard, and I love the feel of my Cherry MX Browns.
| Both of them are unique in their own ways and suitable for some
| things.
| npteljes wrote:
| Funny for me because I hated my G11, I really wanted to like
| it, but the keys were just too hard to press for me.
|
| I sold my "mechanical" too. Current favorite is a Logitech
| K120, simple but it feels fantastic.
| poglet wrote:
| I'm loving my DREVO Tyrfing 87-key. I also got the Keychron K2
| (bluetooth). Really love them both, love the sound of the DREVO,
| it's using their 'Black' switches, amazing to use.
|
| The Keychron has brown switches, much lighter and causes a lot of
| typos. I'm the type of person who likes to rest their hands on
| the keyboard.
|
| Check key caps on AliExpress, easy to customize both keyboard to
| your liking. No need to spend a fortune on this hobby.
| jasonkester wrote:
| Excellent timing. I just got a desktop for the first time, and
| the keyboard it came with is aweful. I've been digging into the
| world of keyboards and have come up against the one big issue:
|
| There seems to be no good keyboard on the market that does not
| have rainbow flashing LEDs under every key.
|
| Can anybody recommend a good keyboard with adults as a target
| market?
| Havoc wrote:
| Vortex RACE 3
|
| Got mine in old school IBM grey. It does have accent LEDs built
| in but they are off by default
|
| Candykeys is a good supplier if your in euro space
| japhyr wrote:
| Are you looking for quiet or loud? Wired or wireless? Full-size
| or compact, ie tenkeyless? And do you want any lights at all?
| jasonkester wrote:
| Just a regular keyboard from the 90s. Not thin. Not light.
| Number pad and all. No 'fn' key under your pinky, and ideally
| no windows key either. I guess the "brown" keys from the
| article sound like what I would expect one of those old
| keyboards to feel like.
|
| I suppose it can have a caps lock indicator. But I can't
| think of any reason I will ever need my entire keyboard to
| glow blue.
| tomtheelder wrote:
| Maybe an iKBC CD108. They are pretty easy to get a hold
| off. No real bells or whistles. It does have a windows key
| (I'm not sure I've ever seen a full size keyboard without a
| windows key to be honesty). Your choice of Cherry switches
| including browns.
| jasonkester wrote:
| Thanks. That looks pretty close.
|
| Does it at least let you disable the windows key or remap
| it as another Ctrl or something?
|
| Edit: One more criteria: Ships quickly to France. This
| one is only available on Amazon US, takes 3 weeks to get
| here for an extra $40.
| japhyr wrote:
| I don't want anything to do with flashy RGB keyboards
| either. I did get one that has a simple white dimmable LED
| backlight, much like laptops with backlit keyboards. I use
| it occasionally in the winter time when it's dark and I
| just want a slight visual indicator of where the keys are.
| But most of the time I use a couple with no lights at all.
|
| Here's a few you might like:
|
| Leopold FC 900R, all black: https://mechanicalkeyboards.com
| /shop/index.php?l=product_det...
|
| Same board, two-tone: https://mechanicalkeyboards.com/shop/
| index.php?l=product_det...
|
| Filco Majestouch 2, all black: https://mechanicalkeyboards.
| com/shop/index.php?l=product_det...
|
| Durgod K310, two-tone: https://www.amazon.com/DURGOD-
| Typewriter-Mechanical-Interfac...
| tomtheelder wrote:
| In nearly all cases you can just turn the LEDs off. I have 3
| keyboards and they all have LEDs in one form or another, but
| you wouldn't know it.
|
| They always use the most ridiculous rainbow pattern in the
| product photos to emphasize that the LEDs are there, it's
| pretty funny. I don't know a single person who actually uses a
| rainbow setting.
|
| That said I can give a more targeted recommendation based on
| what size of keyboard you like to use.
| bllguo wrote:
| Check out Leopold products. Quality build, professional
| appearance, not too expensive (relatively speaking).
|
| Beyond that you're looking at either custom builds or Topre
| boards
| jasonkester wrote:
| That brand seems to replace the LEDs by painting the rainbow
| colors directly on to the keys. I looked through their lineup
| and couldn't find any monochrome ones.
|
| I don't get it. Am I the only one who doesn't want colors on
| my keyboard?
| bllguo wrote:
| Well color me confused. I had black and white/beige models
| in mind, like the below link.
|
| https://mechanicalkeyboards.com/shop/index.php?l=product_de
| t...
| brailsafe wrote:
| Is there a way way I can exactly replicate a Microsoft Sculpt,
| but with the apparent reliability or key action of cherry browns
| or clears? Because right now my mech keyboard is rotting in a
| cable bin while my hands, shoulders, and wrists are always so
| happy with the Sculpt.
| rgoulter wrote:
| The high-end of ergonomic mechanical keyboards are things like
| the Maltron or the Kinesis. Recently, there are projects which
| make use of 3D printing like the Dactyl Manuform.
|
| Somewhat cheaper than these approaches is to go for a split
| keyboard, and 'tent' each of these halves. Ergodox is probably
| the most popular of keyboards like this; but there are
| smaller/cheaper keyboards like the Corne keyboard.
| physicles wrote:
| Not sure if there's a Sculpt clone out there, but I've been
| using a Natural Keyboard Elite for >20 years, and I'm pretty
| happy with the Kinesis Freestyle Pro I just picked up (brown
| switches because I don't want to make tons of noise in a
| coworking space). Key placement is close enough that there
| isn't much of a learning curve.
| tincholio wrote:
| I've recently built a Dactyl Manuform [0], which is still a bit
| of work in progress (cf. the rubber bands :D ), but it's the
| most relaxed typing I've had so far. I used Gateron browns for
| this one, and they're really nice. I get a very relaxed typing
| position, and my fingers need to move very little. On the
| downside, there's a bit of a learning curve (ortholinear +
| layers)...
|
| [0] https://imgur.com/a/dKCrqIF
| Symbiote wrote:
| I have a gallery of ergonomic mechanical keyboards. I'm not
| aware of anything exactly like the Sculpt; once people are 3d
| printing a case they tend to make other changes.
|
| The final picture is to a site with more traditional ergonomic
| keyboards, I haven't added these individually yet.
|
| https://aposymbiont.github.io/split-keyboards/
| fmajid wrote:
| The article is missing a discussion of keycap material or of
| label printing techniques, i.e. why you want double-shot PBT.
| KozmoNau7 wrote:
| I wish I could find a good replacement for my trusty Logitech
| UltraX keyboard. I used a silver PS/2 model back in the day,
| replaced it with a black USB model (the UltraX _Premium_ ,
| apparently) when those came out, and have been using it ever
| since.
|
| It's the closest thing I've found to an old-school Thinkpad
| keyboard, with a full standard layout and volume control media
| keys.
|
| For all the flak that gets thrown at scissor keys for being
| fragile and vulnerable to dust and hair, I've had very few
| issues. Some compressed air and optionally a toothbrush and
| tweezers take care of that just fine once every 6 months or so, I
| very rarely have to pop a key cap off to clean out anything.
|
| I have been thinking about switching to a mechanical keyboard,
| but I'm not sure it's worth it. I really like the good (old
| 7-row) Thinkpad-style scissor keys, and would like something like
| that. I know IBM/Lenovo used to make a full-size keyboard with
| the Thinkpad mechanism and a tenkeyless version that was straight
| up a Thinkpad keyboard in a USB-connected case. Obviously those
| can't be found new anymore, only the modern chiclet-style Lenovo
| keyboard, which is just acceptable rather than desirable.
| rob74 wrote:
| It's interesting how some terms take on a life of their own - as
| someone not very familiar with the intricacies of keyboards (and
| someone who has happily used the same membrane keyboard for ten
| years), I'm a bit puzzled that the term "mechanical" only applies
| to keyboards with individual switches. For me, any keyboard with
| moving keys is "mechanical", so only an on-screen keyboard may
| qualify as "non-mechanical".
|
| BTW, do the good old "buckling spring" keyboards
| (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buckling_spring) qualify as
| "mechanical" by this categorization? I still have one of those
| (from an old IBM PS/1000, from the age before Windows keys) lying
| around somewhere...
| chevill wrote:
| In this context they aren't referring to the keyboard as
| "mechanical". They are indeed all mechanical. Mechanical
| Keyboard is just short for "Mechanical Switch Keyboard". I can
| see how it would be easily confusing for someone not into the
| hobby.
|
| Buckling spring keyboards do indeed count as mechanical switch
| keyboards. I haven't used one since I was a kid but they were
| very cool.
| skjoldr wrote:
| That would be an IBM Model M, they are still quite popular in
| the community and Unicomp still makes them. You should look up
| the model number. Here's a good video on them:
| https://youtu.be/r5H58uudo1Y
| wing-_-nuts wrote:
| My number one requirement for a keyboard is that it be quiet and
| not outrageously expensive, this pretty much rules out mechanical
| keyboards entirely.
|
| The thing that annoys me most, is there is almost no discussion
| about good _membrane_ keyboards. It 's the same blog spam of 5
| promoted keyboards on every blog. I'm probably just going to get
| whatever is the most popular membrane keyboard sold at
| microcenter and call it a day.
| drewzero1 wrote:
| My work keyboard has red (linear) switches which are slightly
| quieter than my neighboring coworker's membrane keyboard. I've
| been thinking about getting some O-rings so it can be basically
| silent.
|
| Honestly I think a good enough membrane keyboard is probably
| good enough. Above a certain baseline functionality, keyboards
| are all about preference. I like the ones that come with HP
| business desktops (model KU-0316), which tend to be pretty
| consistent. I've heard lots of good things about Logitech, but
| my only recent experience is with the MK320. It's decent for
| typing but has a weird nav key arrangement.
| dheera wrote:
| My keyboard of choice right now is Logitech MX Keys.
|
| - High quality construction, nice and heavy, won't slide around
| on table
|
| - Almost no wobble in keys, and you can hit a key anywhere on
| the key including the corner, reliably
|
| - Keycaps can be rearranged to Dvorak if you are very careful
|
| - USB-C charging (as much as I HATE USB-C itself, most of my
| other devices are USB-C so it's reasonably convenient except
| for the occasional connector snapping but that happens with all
| my USB-C devices)
|
| - Illuminated
|
| - Battery life is at least a couple weeks if you turn off the
| illumination
|
| - Really nice typing feel if you like chiclet keyboards
|
| - Can be switched between 3 devices and works with either
| Logitech or Bluetooth protocols. I have one device as Bluetooth
| with my phone and one device as Logitech with my desktop. So if
| I want to type on my phone I just hit one key to switch to my
| phone and start typing.
|
| The biggest downside is Logitech receivers suck, and don't work
| if plugged into a USB3 port directly. You'll want to get a USB2
| hub and plug the receiver into the USB2 hub. No big deal for
| desktops but could be annoying if you are trying to use this
| with a laptop.
|
| There's also a Logitech Craft keyboard which is basically the
| same thing with a configurable input dial. I didn't buy it
| because to be useful to me I need way more than 1 dial. If it
| had at least 5, maybe 10 dials at the top I'd definitely be
| interested.
| marlowe221 wrote:
| I second the MX Keys. It's what I use at work (software dev)
| and I love it.
| brightball wrote:
| That was my requirement too and I ended up pretty happy with a
| low profile, quiet corsair. It's not perfectly quiet but it's
| definitely not loud.
| tomtheelder wrote:
| There are tons of mechanical options that are reasonably priced
| and not particularly loud. Honestly as long as you're not
| getting clicky switches it's very unlikely to be an issue. If
| you get a board with silent switches then the volume is about
| the same as membrane.
| lasagnaphil wrote:
| The ergonomic keyboards from Microsoft often get a wave of
| applause from HN.
| neogodless wrote:
| I'm a Microsoft Ergonomic keyboard diehard, despite having
| generally terrible experiences with longevity. I went through
| quite a few Natural 4000 before switching to the chiclet
| style Sculpt Ergonomic. I wore out the L on one and the F5 on
| another. Like, they would work, but you had to press hard and
| intentionally, so they were basically dead.
|
| I very briefly tried a Logitech G910 Orion Spectrum, and
| realized it was loud as hell, and it was huge. Returned it.
|
| Just today I unboxed a Microsoft Ergonomic Keyboard. I'm
| hoping for a Natural 4000 experience. So far, it's a learning
| curve going back from the chiclet experience, but the wrist
| rest is great, noise is very reasonable, and I'm learning
| well enough to type on it. Who knows, fatigue-wise, how I'll
| feel in a week. But it was just $40 from Amazon, so it isn't
| too much of a gamble.
| mypalmike wrote:
| They have unfortunately discontinued the Ergonomic Keyboard
| 4000 model, and the replacement for it is garbage IMO.
| s0rce wrote:
| I also found it difficult to find a nice quiet inexpensive
| membrane keyboard. I ended up just buying a $15 AmazonBasics
| model. Its nothing special but it works, could be a bit
| quieter. Still looking for something nice.
| marlowe221 wrote:
| I can't stand mechanical keyboards and I'm a programmer.
|
| I've had a great experience with my Logitech MX Keys. It costs
| about $100 USD and is one of the best keyboards I've ever used.
| Great mechanical keyboard.
|
| At home I use the Logitech K360 which I paid less than $30 USD
| for. My desk is really small so I needed a smaller keyboard but
| wanted one that still had a num pad on it. This one fits the
| space I have and it types/codes just fine.
| MetaWhirledPeas wrote:
| The K360 is a great board. I only wish it had a backlight.
| SergeAx wrote:
| I am using a Microsoft Natural Ergonomic keyboard for at least 6
| years. It is a membrane, but I don't feel a big difference with
| mechs. Moreover, with its negative tilt it makes wrists position
| and bend much more comfortable.
|
| It weared off a bit now, and I found out it is out of production,
| so I bought several units from outdated discounted stock. I hope
| those will last until Elon Musk figured out direct brain
| interface.
| kstenerud wrote:
| > Mechanical keyboards are ideal for programmers and fast
| typists, while light users can also consider membrane keyboards
| since they do not often come across certain 3-key
| combinations/shortcuts.
|
| I've never encountered this sort of problem with ANY keyboard
| I've owned in 30 years, no matter how crappy.
|
| > A good mechanical keyboard can alleviate the fatigue of typing.
| Users who need to type for a long time can consider it.
|
| This claim seems dubious.
|
| > In theory, a mechanical keyboard can last for 3 to 5 years.
|
| I've yet to have a membrane keyboard actually wear out. I just
| had my daily driver Logitech solar wireless keyboard that I
| bought in 2014 finally die, but it was the solar charger circuit
| that failed, not the keys or membrane (although the paint on the
| wasd keys were getting pretty damn faded).
|
| > Keyboard wrist rest: some users may feel uncomfortable typing
| without a palm wrist. This depends on personal needs.
|
| Wrist rests are actually one of the leading causes of RSI due to
| the extra compression stress they place upon the carpal tunnel.
| efficax wrote:
| > In theory, a mechanical keyboard can last for 3 to 5 years.
|
| 3 to 5 years! I expect all of my mechs to last a lifetime. My
| daily driver is cherry mx blues that have been clicking away
| for 11 years now, 6-10 hours of software engineering a day.
|
| That calculation does not seem very realistic. I'd expect a
| mech keyboard to continue to function after 50 years of daily
| use, and a traditional membrane to probably wear out somewhere
| between 10 - 15 years of daily use.
| therealdrag0 wrote:
| I've had multiple Kinesis die on me sadly.
| taternuts wrote:
| Yep, if you get a nice one then it should last quite a while.
| Problem is when you want to buy another one for work or
| something and they no longer sell them :/
|
| I have been using a Tex Beetle TKL Mechanical Keyboard for
| about 10 years and they no longer sell it which is a huge
| bummer. I'm sure if it breaks I'll be OK with another TLK
| keyboard out there on the market but I do love this one.
| MetaWhirledPeas wrote:
| I'm not hatin', but spend some time on r/mechanicalkeyboards
| and you'll quickly realize it's just a fun hobby that's 90%
| about aesthetics. For example, most users ignore backlighting
| because it limits the cute keycap sets they can use.
| fouric wrote:
| > most users ignore backlighting because it limits the cute
| keycap sets they can use
|
| What's the advantage of backlighting? I don't need to look at
| my keyboard to type.
| Ajedi32 wrote:
| To type, sure. But what if you want to press a more obscure
| button like F7 or Print Screen? Also helps for games where
| your fingers aren't always in the standard ASDF position
| and you're still learning the keybindings.
| kayfox wrote:
| I have a number of the Cherry MX Board 1.0 TKL that has a
| backlight, I use them on keyboards for computers at
| theatrical (stage) shows. No need to turn on a light that
| may get noticed by the audience to see where the keyboard
| is or to find your place on it.
|
| And some people do not 100% touch type, or don't touch type
| in the strict way everyone expects all touch typists to do
| so.
| sirhoimes wrote:
| i have a moonlander keyboard that's programmable. certain
| keys can trigger layer shifts, and backlighting helps me
| know which layer i'm on.
| ugabugaguga wrote:
| > I don't need to look at my keyboard to type.
|
| What a god.
| MetaWhirledPeas wrote:
| If you've memorized `~!@#$%^&*()-_=+[{]}\|;:'",<.>/? then
| yeah, you don't need a backlight. I've memorized some, but
| certainly not all.
| hereforphone wrote:
| I'm sure a lot of this is out there, especially for young
| keyboard users. I'm middle age and I learned in grad school
| that a good mechanical keyboard could save my fingers. I
| personally went from finger pain to no finger pain, and have
| been good since. YMMV of course
| kstenerud wrote:
| Yup, I've got no problem with hobbies. I have a friend who
| keeps a closet full of sneakers he'll never wear, and quite
| often I'll go days without calling him a weirdo ;-)
|
| It just gets weird when people start into these audiophile-
| like arguments for the superiority of their choice. I've
| owned a number of mechanical and membrane keyboards since my
| first computer in 1983, and there's no real benefit to either
| except for aesthetics and how it feels to you personally.
| MetaWhirledPeas wrote:
| I totally agree. Membrane keyboards are 100% fine. In fact,
| back in the 90s I was a bit turned off by the cacophonous
| IBM keyboards and considered the shift toward rubber domes
| as a luxury. We've come full circle.
| [deleted]
| sundarurfriend wrote:
| Imagine what kind of person regularly posts on a subreddit
| about a physical tool that doesn't require much maintanence.
| Of course it's going to be the people that take it up as a
| personal hobby that are going to post - that isn't going to
| give you a representative sample of the average users. I've
| been using a mechanical keyboard for years now, and I've
| visited the sub maybe half a dozen times, and yet I enjoy the
| feel of my keyboards and they'll continue to make a small but
| significant improvement to my interactions with computers.
| lallysingh wrote:
| I think the wear could be from people using the same keys very
| heavily (e.g. WASD) and those failing. I've had failures on
| both mech (a WASD mx-clear, 7 yrs old) and membrane (ms
| natural, 1 yr old) keyboards. That's about it. Build quality
| for the rest of the keyboard is a factor, however.
|
| I eventually threw out my oldest mechanical (1997) because I
| didn't want to deal with a ps2 adapter anymore. Mecha are a
| higher price tier, and it's easier to get higher quality. Newer
| keyboards (2009 onwards) that I still own hold up pretty well.
|
| My Kinesis is distinctly less fatiguing. That's because I don't
| bottom out the keys when typing. The key activates early and
| the keyboard beeps. I stop at the beep and it's really more
| comfortable. My hands can feel a significant difference after a
| day off typing.
|
| If you're placing your wrist down when typing, it's better to
| place it higher up. And when rising your hand from idle to
| typing height, it's less fatiguing to raise it less. A better
| starting position will likely improve your final typing
| position.
| munchbunny wrote:
| _I 've never encountered this sort of problem with ANY keyboard
| I've owned in 30 years, no matter how crappy._
|
| I have, but only under very specific circumstances: playing
| Overcooked with two players on one keyboard. This will
| occasionally mean six keys simultaneously pressed and then
| someone notices key presses just go missing.
|
| Also, not all keyboards with mechanical switches have N-key
| rollover. Many tout "anti-ghosting" which means different
| things that you have to look in the specs for.
| kstenerud wrote:
| Actually I lied. I did have trouble getting a shoryureppa off
| on street fighter, but then I got a joystick and all was well
| again.
| therealdrag0 wrote:
| I depend on the Kinesis Advantage's ergonomics, but I much
| prefer the light crispness of laptop keys.
| t0mbstone wrote:
| If you play any games on your computer, then odds are high you
| are familiar with using the WASD keys for directional movement
| and the space bar for jumping.
|
| If someone is moving forward (W) and strafing to the right (D)
| while jumping (Space), they will have reached the key rollover
| limits of their 3KRO (3 key roll over) membrane-based keyboard.
|
| This means that if they ALSO try to fire off one of their
| abilities (let's say they have to press "1" to activate their
| ability), they won't be able to activate it unless they first
| let go of one of their movement keys.
|
| This is a lot less noticeable in a more advanced keyboard that
| can do 6 key rollover. It's pretty rare that someone is going
| to be performing 6 simultaneous actions in a game.
| ffffwe3rq352y3 wrote:
| I'm not sure how much typing you do but I've done a LOT! One
| thing I can say for certain:
|
| Mechanical keyboards are much more comfortable to type on.
|
| I feel like even a 10% increase in comfortableness for
| something you use every day for just $100 is totally worth it!
| If you do any amount of typing I really recommend it!
| therealdrag0 wrote:
| Compared to what? A laptop keyboard or an ergonomically
| identical mechanical keyboard?
| ffffwe3rq352y3 wrote:
| Sorry! I used a membrane keyboard! I don't use laptops much
| but whenever I do its super uncomfortable! Thats more of
| the position rather than the keys though.
| w0m wrote:
| > >> A good mechanical keyboard can alleviate the fatigue of
| typing. Users who need to type for a long time can consider it.
| > This claim seems dubious.
|
| Having had some RSI issues; I have found significant
| improvement since I started swapping mechanical keyboards
| around. I don't bottom-out as much which alleviates some finger
| pain I had after using my previous rubber-dome.
|
| Not for everyone I'm sure; but it does help. I rotate a Magic
| Keyboard and ~3-4 different mechanical keyboards on various
| desks to get different angles and pressures also.
| acoard wrote:
| > Wrist rests are actually one of the leading causes of RSI due
| to the extra compression stress they place upon the carpal
| tunnel.
|
| Can you speak more to this? I bought a ZSA Moonlander[0], which
| has built in (tho removable) wrist rests. I bought the keyboard
| specifically for ergonomics, mechanical keyboard "coolness" was
| far down the list.
|
| I used to get wrist pain typing directly on my MBP, with my
| laptop on my lap (shitty setup due to COVID, am fixing now). I
| would be resting my wrist right on the hard edge of the MBP.
| Since getting the moonlander, I've had no wrist pains.
|
| [0] https://www.zsa.io/moonlander
| kstenerud wrote:
| That kind of RSI is caused by repeated rubbing along the
| carpal tunnel in your wrists. The more friction there is, the
| quicker it happens, so the idea is to keep your wrists as
| free from all forms of compression/pronation as possible so
| that the tendons glide as effortlessly as they can. Resting
| your wrists on something, having your wrists bent at bad
| angles, etc increase the compression and thus friction. Piano
| and guitar players with poor posture also suffer similar
| injuries for the same reason.
|
| Other than that it's about recognizing the signs that your
| wrists are getting raw from too much use and taking breaks.
| ben7799 wrote:
| There's more than one type of RSI, carpal tunnel is only
| one particular injury.
|
| I've had severe typing RSI and had to go to the doctor for
| it.. mine was tendonitis in the flexor muscles.
|
| They looked at the X-Rays and MRIs of my wrists and said
| there was no way I would ever have to worry about carpal
| tunnel, different people have differences in the bones and
| can have a tighter tunnel.. a tighter tunnel can make that
| type of issue more likely to occur.
| jacobolus wrote:
| The ideal if you need to type a lot is to leave your palms
| and wrists "floating" in the air while actively typing, and
| position your torso and keyboard such that you can type with
| your hands close enough to your body that they can be
| supported without much effort by your arms and shoulders,
| perhaps lightly resting your finger tips on the keys. Resting
| your palms on a palmrest while not actively typing is fine.
|
| You'll get wrist pain primarily from wrists not being
| straight (either flexed downward or extended upward). Keeping
| your wrists close to straight is important when doing any
| kind of repetitive action with the fingers.
| vladvasiliu wrote:
| I usually do this "floating" thing, especially since I
| mostly use my index and middle fingers, so I have to move
| the hands around to reach the keys.
|
| But I've found that for some use cases, when I always press
| the same keys (say moving around text with hjkl, or
| similar) it's very comfortable to rest the wrist on the
| wrist-rest. However, I usually put most of the wrist's
| weight on the exterior, so I suppose the nerves aren't as
| much constrained.
| maxioatic wrote:
| I had the exact same issue with my laptop - and my wrist pain
| wouldn't go away even after switching to a normal keyboard
| and watching my posture.
|
| I also bought the Moonlander and have had very minimal pain
| since (~4 months now). Was thinking about this as I went to
| bed last night; such a relief. Sometimes I'd have to wear
| wrist braces at night due to pain.
|
| Regarding the wrist rests, I find that the base of my palms,
| and not my wrists, touch the wrist rest. Maybe it's the size
| of my hands and how I have it tented, but overall I like the
| wrist rests quite a lot. I do try to lift my wrists a little
| when I'm really typing though.
| cryptonector wrote:
| There are tendons going from your fingers all the way to your
| elbows. These tendons must traverse the narrowing that is
| your wrist. Tendons are surrounded by a sheath that lets them
| move freely in one dimension as they extend or contract.
| There's two sets of these tendons: one below and one above,
| for bending and extending your fingers, respectively. On the
| underside of your wrist the tendons for bending your fingers
| all get close together. Now when you rest your wrists as you
| type you put pressure on all those tendons and their sheaths,
| and this causes trouble by increasing friction -- eventually
| scarring.
|
| Don't do it.
| solutron wrote:
| I think it's a matter of keeping the hands aligned with
| forearm and not having pressure on the write joints
| themselves. I try to keep the palms of my hand (the same part
| you hit with in martial arts) on the "wrist rests" instead,
| and I've had zero issues for years. For me, the biggest
| problems I had came from using various mice and never finding
| a good one until I moved to a MacBook and learned the
| trackpad. Now I've literally adhered a magic trackpad 2 to
| the middle of a Kinesis Advantage 2 keyboard and I love it.
| It translates back and forth between using the laptop and a
| "docked" setup better than anything else I've tried over the
| years.
| unsui wrote:
| The kinesis advantage (now Advantage2 LF) has been my
| mainstay keyboard over the last 20 years, both
| professionally and personally. I too adhered a trackpad,
| although mine is an Ergo Mini touchpad:
| https://ergonomictouchpad.com/ergonomic_touchpad.php
|
| I immediately bypassed the aesthetics side of MK and went
| straight to functionality; the kinesis has probably been
| the most reliable piece of hardware I've had over the years
| (with the exception of a key-repeating known issue that has
| been resolved with the advantage2)
| Swizec wrote:
| Learn to type by floating your hands like a pianist. It's the
| main thing that saved my wrists 10 years ago when I started
| developing first hints of issues after 15 years of daily
| coding.
|
| Retiring at 23 because of wrist pain wouldve _sucked_.
|
| Typing on yor lap is generally bad for all sorts of reasons.
| I've found it can work if you're reclining in a comfy chair.
| But float your wrists!
| acoard wrote:
| Great tip and way of phrasing it. This is basically what I
| do, except I cheat a bit by resting my elbows on my arm
| rest. My wrists hover, or gently graze the wrist rest, but
| most the pressure is closer to my elbows.
| cryptonector wrote:
| That moonlander looks cool, but I place my keyboard on my lap
| while typing, so it wouldn't work for me. I like that the
| switches are replaceable, and it's funny that the first thing
| they mention about what matters in switch selection is
| loudness but then fail to list that attribute for any of the
| switches they offer!
| nlavezzo wrote:
| I had really bad arm / wrist issues about 10 years ago due to
| overuse of crappy small keyboards on laptops, etc. Mechanical
| keyboards (after a bunch of physical therapy / massage) have
| been key to keep my arms healthy.
|
| After trying probably 10 different "ergo" keyboards, the one
| I landed on that has been amazing for a decade is the Kinesis
| Ergo Advantage2
|
| https://kinesis-ergo.com/keyboards/advantage2-keyboard/
|
| It is split, so helps with that angle, and also has
| depressions where your fingers go so your hands aren't cocked
| back causing additional strain. It also has a couple options
| of the mechanical switches used. Anyone struggling with pain
| from typing, I'd suggest looking at it. It has a learning
| curve but it's worth it.
| mrwh wrote:
| I must admit, during work from home I have enjoyed using a
| keyboard far louder and more satisfying than anything I'd
| consider using in an open plan office. It'll stay here, and be
| another reason to spend at least a couple of days a week at home
| for the foreseeable future.
| Fomite wrote:
| In contrast, WFH meant my beloved Cheery MX Blue keyboard got
| banished by my wife for something quieter.
| Leherenn wrote:
| It's funny, because some of my colleagues are thinking of
| switching the other way around, at least during video
| conferencing. They have to mute themselves to do a quick Google
| search, otherwise you have this annoying sound when you talk.
| mrwh wrote:
| That's interesting. The etiquette where I work has sprung up
| to keep yourself muted unless you're the one talking, and if
| you're talking you're not typing, so it's less of an issue.
| Leherenn wrote:
| The etiquette is roughly similar, it's just that sometimes
| the person talking is also the one needing to get more
| info, e.g. open the relevant ticket or something. It's
| certainly not impossible to mute while they do the search,
| but apparently it's annoying enough that they have thought
| about changing the keyboard.
| atrn wrote:
| At home I use buckling springs (Unicomp model M style plugged
| into an iMac) - I live alone and can make lots of typing noise.
| In the office its a Filco with some color Cherry switch I
| forget but its a lot better than the keyboard that came with
| the box they supply.
| user3939382 wrote:
| At home I have a Matias Tactile Pro, which uses a kind of
| modern take on alps switches. I love the feel but man, that
| thing is a gatling gun. Borderline ridiculous.
| sascha_sl wrote:
| Check out Kailh Box Jades, and if it's just on YouTube for the
| experience, they're the gold standard in making sure your
| neighbors hate you.
| bikingbismuth wrote:
| I have fairly understanding cube neighbors at my office, and
| my Box Jade board was the only one I was ever told that I
| needed to take home.
|
| It feels great to type on though.
| ramraj07 wrote:
| Honest personal opinion is that all of this stuff is a bit much.
| I agree that the stock keyboard you get with pcs and most laptops
| are a joke, but for most people (even engineers) a decent regular
| keyboard should be sufficient? Isn't the point of devices like
| keyboards and mice to disappear from my head so you only think
| about what's on the screen and what you're doing with it?
|
| If this is what you want to spend your spare time discussing and
| buying sure, but let's not propagate any pseudo scientific facts
| about the superiority of mechanical keyboards in any regard. I've
| only seen people slow down typing in these clackety things going
| from an apple keyboard and I don't want to be in any zoom meeting
| with these folks either.
| 1ark wrote:
| I had to try and went trying and bought a blue key mech board.
| They are great for gaming of course. After a year I went back
| and bought a silent Matias Mac replica keyboard. Used Mac
| keyboards for many years before, they are soft and low with
| optimal distance between keys, but enough tactile function to
| not make mistakes when resting. Perhaps most of us get
| accustomed to what we have used for the longest time and want
| to use that.
| munchbunny wrote:
| I agree for the most part. There are, however, two cases that
| come to mind for me as keyboards that did make a substantial
| difference:
|
| 1. Split-key keyboard. Got one when I was getting RSI issues in
| my wrists. That keyboard really did make a difference.
|
| 2. Butterfly keyboard on the Macbook. I hated it. My typing
| precision suffered. It's certainly subjective, but I was
| dropping my A's everywhere.
|
| Other than that, my current mechanical keyboard has been mainly
| just a "it feels nice" thing, not a "I'm a better programmer
| because of it" thing.
| john_alan wrote:
| I actually just got my first mech keyboard.
|
| It's been really fun. I love using it.
|
| I guess I did have an old IBM 386 in the early 90s and that had a
| kinda mech board.
|
| My first mech is this: https://iqunix.store/products/f96-coral-
| sea-wireless-mechani...
| racingmars wrote:
| Doesn't seem to be mentioned in many mechanical keyboard articles
| these days, but I still find the buckling spring style switches
| an absolute joy to type on. The classic IBM Model M keyboard.
| Ndymium wrote:
| Note that even the Model M buckling spring mechanism is a step
| down from the earlier Model F buckling spring, which some
| people consider to be better. Personally I have not tried the
| latter as any surviving examples are quite expensive. But the
| mechboard world is a never ending hole, at least until you hit
| working beam springs, I think. :)
| JasonFruit wrote:
| I had a model F AT, but sold it; it was a truly amazing
| keyboard, but the layout was a little too weird for me to get
| used to. Beautiful feel, though, and a satisfying wonky clonk
| sound.
| sedatk wrote:
| Unicomp's still selling those: https://www.pckeyboard.com/
| foxrider wrote:
| My holy grail is a buckling spring ortholinear keyboard. I
| don'kt think that's going to happen anytime soon so I made a
| Kailh Pink XD75. It's as close as I can get, but that new
| Unicomp without the numpad looks amazing.
| edpichler wrote:
| Mechanical keyboards are the market solution for people, like me,
| that uses the Dvorak (or others) keyboard layout.
| boromi wrote:
| Optical switches are superior to mechanical switches IMO.
| Koshkin wrote:
| Sure, but by their very design they draw more power (multiply
| by N keys), which is not good for wireless keyboards.
| foxrider wrote:
| Optical switches still fall into the realm of mechanical
| keyboards. There is a new hall effect switch from input.club
| that's even better.
| baxuz wrote:
| I just want a fully programmable Apple Magic keyboard (60%) with
| a USB connection and NKRO.
| 1ark wrote:
| Matias makes great replicas.
| https://matias.store/products/fk308s
| [deleted]
| IE6 wrote:
| My thoughts on the points raised in the article:
|
| * Differences in keystroke logging - this has nothing to do with
| the switch and everything to do with the design of the traces on
| the board, the controller, and the interface to the computer.
| There are plenty of what you would consider to be mechanical
| keyboards by your definition that are 3KRO/6KRO. A beginner
| reading this article may wrongly assume that if it has a discrete
| switch it must be NKRO.
|
| * Typing feel - this too is a problematic claim because many very
| good keyboards (Topre, IBM Model M) employ a membrane.
|
| * Lifespan - I struggle with this claim as I've seen many very
| old membrane keyboards and I've had mechanical keyboards fail
| early. I think there are too many factors and components that go
| into a keyboard to claim they will have long life solely because
| the switches may be tested at millions/billions of actuations.
|
| * Travel Distance - while this is mostly accurate there are a few
| "speed" variants that have been popularized by gaming brands.
| They may offer a superior gaming experience but some people may
| find typing on these keyboards to be cumbersome.
|
| In my opinion there is really no optimal keyboard for everyone.
| What works for someone may feel terrible for others. It's really
| about what your personal preference is be it "mechanical",
| membrane, or heck even apple butterfly.
|
| I am currently using a Tex Shinobi
| https://tex.com.tw/products/shinobi?variant=16969883648090 with
| 78G Zelio V2 switches.
| secondcoming wrote:
| My keyboard is one of Corsair Cherry MX Silent ones. I love it. I
| can program all day on it, and it's not loud at all. I don't know
| how people prefer loud keyboards
| camgunz wrote:
| Dear lazyweb: are there mechanical keyboards with good pointing
| sticks (TrackPoint)? I know about Unicomp but those sticks look a
| little flimsy (or, if someone who has one can say they're not
| flimsy that works too).
| bullfightonmars wrote:
| Tex makes a series of nice board with trackpoints. They are
| clearly modeled after IBM Thinkpads.
|
| The Yoda II is sold put but they often come out with new
| batches.
|
| https://tex.com.tw/collections/keyboard
| baumy wrote:
| Gonna take this opportunity to shill for my favorite keyboard
| ever, the UHK:
|
| https://ultimatehackingkeyboard.com/product/trackpoint
|
| There's that module, and also a trackball and small touchpad
| one that attaches near where your thumb would be
| wellthisisgreat wrote:
| Just wanted to recommend Keeb.io (not affiliated in any kind,
| just a happy customer). Probably the best place to get kits for
| ergonomic and somewhat exotic keyboards.
|
| I am using Quefrency and Sinc and couldn't be happier
| AdamN wrote:
| Anybody have recommendations for travel somewhere between apple
| keyboard (the good ones) and mechanical (specifically MX brown
| that I use now)? I don't care about the technology so much as the
| travel (and the noise).
| niuzeta wrote:
| Maybe I'm a minority, but I've been happy with my 10-year-old Das
| Keyboard (cherry blue) for home usage and 4-year-old FILCO
| Majestouch (cherry brown) for the office. They're "boring" - they
| don't have anything fancy on them but they look like keyboards
| and they're pleasurable to type on.
|
| Recently, I thought of replacing my Das Keyboard and tried to get
| something equally "boring" - it was sad to see that they don't
| have the boring option anymore without at least one or two spinny
| wheel or flash function key.
| NoSorryCannot wrote:
| Leopold is boring, aside from being able to pull double duty as
| bludgeoning weapons.
| niuzeta wrote:
| Thanks! will take a look.
| donpark wrote:
| If you're looking for a small friendly MK community to get into
| this ~~cursed~~ wonderful hobby, try KeebTalk.
|
| https://www.keebtalk.com/
| trabant00 wrote:
| From my experience using mech keyboards for the last 10 years I
| would say the reliability is a bit of a myth. I've broken 3
| keyboards so far. By the time I had 1 switch fail lots others
| feel worn out so not worth repairing if you can't do it yourself.
|
| If you are after your first mech do test out multiple switch
| types. A world of difference between them and it depends on
| personal preference, you can't decide by reading about them.
|
| Also consider a model without numpad if you don't use it often.
| For me it is a big comfort improvement not having the mouse so
| far away.
| flr03 wrote:
| I don't know what people do with their keyboards but for
| decades I've been using cheap membrane keyboards for
| coding/gaming and never had reliability problems, and I keep a
| keyboard 5y+. I just changed because I wanted to really.
| Havoc wrote:
| Easier to repair though. Eg my supplier allowed me to attempt a
| repair myself while still honouring guarantee if I failed.
| Worked out so saved shipping to Germany and a replacement cost
| for supplier
| cigaser wrote:
| I used original IBM something keyboards in 90ies. Keys broke
| all the time.
| formerly_proven wrote:
| Many third party switches, especially in the "super smooth
| feeling" category, seem to be using softer plastics than
| original Cherry switches. Those iirc have a little bit of glass
| fill in them, which makes the material much tougher and more
| wear-resistant, but results in the "crunchy" feeling of the
| switches.
|
| Bouncy switches are a real problem with third-party switches as
| well, even though cherries generally don't do that.
| hiq wrote:
| > Also consider a model without numpad if you don't use it
| often. For me it is a big comfort improvement not having the
| mouse so far away.
|
| Or put the numpad on the left side of the keyboard if you're
| right-handed. I don't know if that exists?
| frosted-flakes wrote:
| They do, but they're rare. I had my eye on a group buy for a
| left numpad mechanical keyboard, but it was like $300 minimum
| and it didn't even include switches or keycaps.
|
| A right-handed friend of mine straight up switched mousing
| hands after I suggested it as a joke. I think he still mouses
| with his left hand to this day. I tried for a little while,
| but it was like learning to walk all over again and I
| couldn't get used to it.
| mxmilkiib wrote:
| Southpaw/"left-handed"
| mjhagen wrote:
| My daily driver is a 30 year old Apple Extended Keyboard II,
| however I did have to go through several (6) to find one that
| only needed minor repair and had the right feel. Now that I
| have though, I feel pretty confident I can repair any switch
| that starts to act up.
| tomtheelder wrote:
| As a counter anecdote, in about ~15 years of using mechanical
| keyboards I've never had one fail. I had a daily driver for 7
| years that was good as new when I eventually gave it to a
| friend.
|
| Couldn't agree more about the other two points though. To go
| along with your second point I would also strongly suggest
| looking for a keyboard that is hot swappable. You can use a
| switch tester and all that, but only actual experience will
| tell you what you really want, and I think very few people end
| up sticking with the first switch they have. A hot swappable
| board will let you alter the switches without replacing the
| whole device.
| bikingbismuth wrote:
| I concur with the last two points as well. It is a bit
| annoying, but I recommend getting 3 or 4 of a single switch
| to put in a tester to mimic "real typing".
|
| I am a strongly believer of smaller is better, my daily
| driver is a 48 key ortholinear board. I use a 60% from time
| to time, and it feels gigantic. I can't even imagine going
| back to a full 104 keyboard.
| thrwaeasddsaf wrote:
| I have a 47 key ortho and I'm jealous of your 48th key :(
| sascha_sl wrote:
| It really depends how the board is built. Cherry switches are
| very unpopular in the community, but they do excel in
| reliability. There's a reason you still occasionally see POS
| terminals in your local fast food restaurant use grime-filled
| disgusting but functional (and by now considered vintage, up to
| $7 per switch) MX Blacks.
| wst_ wrote:
| What do you mean "unpopular"? Weren't they the one and only
| just a year or two ago? When I've been shopping for my TKL
| keyboard, they were basically the only option.
| sascha_sl wrote:
| Well, in the enthusiast circles they are unpopular.
|
| Compared to alternatives, Cherry has barely innovated in
| the past 20 years. Their switches are scratchy. Browns are
| barely tactile if you compare them to the competition,
| often jokingly called "linear with sand in it". The blue
| has much better alternatives using clickbars instead of
| clickjackets and clickies are much less popular in the
| enthusiast space, because they care about good sounding
| thocks. The lesser known colors are all extremely heavy. MX
| Clears (as parts, for making frankenswitches) and heavily
| lubed Blacks (particularly with housings produced before
| the 2000s, aka "Vintage Blacks") have a small following,
| but that's really it.
|
| OEMs are only very slowly catching up to this, but they
| are. A few months back we even had the first OEM board with
| Zealios switches!
| Dracophoenix wrote:
| What's the holy grail switch for these enthusiasts these
| days? Is the tenkeyless/po3kr-sized keyboard format still
| considered "end game"?
| sascha_sl wrote:
| It's a lot of 65% and 75% now. There's not really the one
| chase switch anymore, but OG Holy Pandas retained their
| value pretty well considering Glorious got very close to
| them.
|
| ThereminGoat coverers new switches pretty extensively:
| https://www.theremingoat.com/
| markjgx wrote:
| What does HN think of Model M replicas? Had a few mechanical
| keyboards over my life but my Model M replica feels the best.
| lasagnaphil wrote:
| It's unfeasible for most people though because of the
| incredible noise it generates (Yeah, I get it, the sound's
| _awesome_ and it 's a feature, but you're not going to use it
| at work or at home with other people)
| foresto wrote:
| I bought an MX 5000 (aka Ergo Plus) back when I had no idea who
| Cherry was or what the phrase "mechanical keyboard" meant. I just
| wanted an adjustable split keyboard that wasn't too exotic.
| Decades later, it's still serving me well.
|
| Over the years, I've learned about the vintage[1] brown switches
| inside and why I find them so comfortable, what n-key rollover is
| and how important it has been to my gaming sessions, and why this
| thing continues to work after all this time. What a great
| purchase it turned out to be. Too bad this model was discontinued
| long ago.
|
| [1] Apparently the brown switches in this keyboard are not the
| same as those sold today.
| https://old.reddit.com/r/MechanicalKeyboards/comments/3prp4k...
| aeroheim wrote:
| Topre keyboards are my holy grail honestly. They aren't
| technically "mechanical" keyboards since they still use rubber
| domes but are still well-known and respected in the MK community
| (albeit memed upon often). Since Topre uses proprietary switches
| based on capacitance there isn't as big of a modding community
| around them but the keyboards are mostly produced in Japan
| (Realforce) and Korea (Leopold) and have _insane_ build quality.
|
| As a relatively fast typist (~150wpm) the tactility and comfort
| of topres feel superior to me in every way. And oh man the sound
| - do yourself a favor and look up a video of a silenced Realforce
| or Leopold - they sound like gentle raindrops and are _insanely_
| therapeutic when working.
| dmayle wrote:
| Along those lines, I have plans to purchase a Matias Ergo Pro
| as my first foray into mechanical. I can't type on a non-ergo
| keyboard (I've been using the Microsoft Natural for over a
| decade), and I'm thrilled at the idea of going mechanical, but
| the noise bothers me.
|
| I heard a side-by-side of a silenced topre (realforce 87u) vs
| Matias quiet click, the the silenced topre is much quieter.
|
| Are there any ergo topre keyboards out there?
| bauerd wrote:
| There are silent switches too. Look up Silent Alpacas or
| Gazzew Boba U4 Silents for example
| bojanvidanovic wrote:
| Same here, I'm using the HHKB for about 2 years now, and it
| just feels so much better over all other keyboards I've tried.
| BoorishBears wrote:
| I was seriously disappointed by the HHKB. My Type S is still
| kicking around in a closet, it's just a very rattly/plasticy
| feeling keyboard for the price point.
|
| Boba U4 is a mechanical switch that gives an extremely
| similar feel to a Topre, but is _dramatically_ less key
| wobble which makes a huge difference
| goodpoint wrote:
| > insanely therapeutic
|
| Quite an oxymoron here.
| queuep wrote:
| Last week I used my old macbook pro (2016) for the first time
| in long. I have 2 mechs, 1 with reds and one with silver
| speeds.
|
| I noticed how I somehow wrote alot faster on my old macbook
| pro, and not messing up that much.
|
| So I was thinking about moving from mechs to something else.
| But perhaps i should try a "Topre"?
| petepete wrote:
| I've been using a RealForce keyboard for years and it's an
| absolute joy to type on. With a decent wrist I've never felt
| any fatigue even after very productive days.
|
| I wish I'd bought a silent one though, whenever I forget to
| mute myself on Zoom my typing is clearly audible. Not everyone
| appreciates the 'thonk'.
| bikingbismuth wrote:
| This is a nice introduction and the link at the bottom provides
| some good depth for people looking to go a bit further.
|
| As an enthusiast who has built many keyboards, I wish the public
| could get easier access to more "boutique" switches. Gateron
| yellow (linear), Box Jade (clicky), and Zilent 67s (tactile) are
| amazing, but you pretty much have to be ready to build your own
| deck to use them.
| tomtheelder wrote:
| It's really weird that Gateron Yellows aren't in more mass
| market boards. Even when Gateron switches are used it's nearly
| always Reds, despite the Yellows generally being much preferred
| as far as I can tell.
| sascha_sl wrote:
| People who are not too far into keyboards often have a
| vendetta against actuation force before they give heavier
| switches a week or two. You can see this in the video LTT did
| on blind switch tests, they picked the most mainstream
| (including MX browns in the tactile category, considered
| garbage by most of the community) switches because they were
| familiar.
| sascha_sl wrote:
| Hotswap makes it easier than ever, If you just want a platform
| to try different switches a board from the GK series works fine
| too. Fully assembled board for less than a $100 is totally
| possible.
|
| Also, try Boba U4s, beats out Zilents at half the price, use
| the lower weight variants for more pronounced tactility.
| avinassh wrote:
| > membrane keyboards generally have 2KRO, 3KRO, or 6KRO
|
| Since this article is targeted for beginners, it would be better
| if you explain what are these terms and how do they affect
| ernesth wrote:
| > membrane keyboards generally have 2KRO,3KRO, or 6KRO while
| mechanical keyboards support N-key rollover (no matter how many
| keys you are holding down simultaneously, all of them will be
| registered correctly).
|
| 2KRO means 2-key rollover. If you push 3 keys simultaneously,
| one will not be taken into account.
|
| It is in fact a little more complicated than that (2KRO
| guarantees that any combination of 2 keys will register both,
| but some 3 or more key combinations will also work).
| JKCalhoun wrote:
| Laid out my first PCB for a mechanical keyboard.
|
| I used the project as an excuse to learn KiCad and keyboards at
| the same time.
|
| Fun.
|
| It outputs ASCII for Apple I and other 8-bit home-brew machines.
| (It's why I built it.)
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